Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

because outside of sin the you have no kung fu uncles or even 2nd cousins.).

In Indonesia, sure we do (or did). Some of the guys on this thread have been to GM Ie's old school and seen performances from kung fu cousins, and even 2nd cousins. One of those uncles ran GM Ie's school after GM Ie's death. He is also suspected to have been one of GM Sin's teachers when GM Sin was a student of GM Ie. And then there's always Hiang The, who tells us that he learned from other Chung Yen teachers--fire-whip, double daggers, Tai Peng system.

Anyways, what is your objection? That we're *******s?:p

[hskwarrior]

In Indonesia, sure we do (or did). Some of the guys on this thread have been to GM Ie's old school and seen performances from kung fu cousins, and even 2nd cousins.

why is there only a painting of this alleged school? why is the name in chinese in the background only connected to Mongolians? what about students of the hairy monkey dude? so Sin The was his only student?

[hskwarrior]

In Indonesia, sure we do (or did). Some of the guys on this thread have been to GM Ie's old school and seen performances from kung fu cousins, and even 2nd cousins. fire-whip, double daggers, Tai Peng system.


why is the only source of this Tai Peng system Shaolin Do? fire whip? what a pretty name hahahaha

why does shaolin do share some of the same names of forms but the CONTENT is all different? makes you wonder don't it? not me, it means he took the name and made up his own version of it.

[bodhi warrior]

why is the only source of this Tai Peng system Shaolin Do? fire whip? what a pretty name hahahaha

why does shaolin do share some of the same names of forms but the CONTENT is all different? makes you wonder don't it? not me, it means he took the name and made up his own version of it.

The fire whip is a very long rope with something on the end that's on fire. Performed like a rope dart. I've seen master Hiang perform this in his 60's. it was ver impressive. He puts a lot of energy and power in his swings.

[Syn7]

SD is just plain difficult to categorize. It's a Chinese-Indies art based on Shaolin. Whatever else it is, anyone's guess.

Yeah and ska is partially rooted in jazz. But if you called ska jazz, Buddy Bolden would rise from the grave and ***** slap you.


IMO the Shaolin moniker is a PR move. If another art that was supposedly connected was more popular, he would have called it that.

[PalmStriker]

No. Still not for real. :)

[kwaichang]

Many have said the Fukien Shaolin Temple does or did not exist . I found this reference in the Chy Li Fut History.
History and Lineage of Choy Li Fut (Cai Li Fo)



Although known as a Southern system, Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 kung fu has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. The system's founder, Chan Heung 陳享, had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North. Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung fu styles that is strongly influenced by both Northern and Southern Chinese kung-fu, combining the long arm techniques of the South with the quick agile footwork that characterizes Northern China's martial arts.

Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 was founded in 1836 by Chan Heung 陳享, a well-known and highly-skilled martial artist of that period. Also known as Din Ying 典英 and Daht Ting 逹庭, Chan Heung was born on August 23, 1806 (7 moon 10th day of 1806 of the lunar calendar), in King Mui 京梅 (Jing Mei), a village in the San Woi 新會 (Xin Hui) district of Guangdong 廣東 province. His martial arts career began at age seven, when he went to live with his uncle, Chan Yuen-Woo 陳遠護. Yuen-Woo was a famous boxer from the legendary Shaolin temple in Fujian 褔建, China. From Chan Yuen-Woo, Chan Heung learned the art of Southern Shaolin kung-fu,

Well what about that there was a Fujien Shaolin Temple. That is what GMT said all along. KC

[kwaichang]

Hey man is this the Kung Fu you do ?
http://youtu.be/tIc5t7PSLSc Not very impressive to me. KC

[Empty_Cup]

Question: are there any weapons considered exclusively kun tao?

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/730T4l23qpo
4th road of Hua. KC
http://youtu.be/UdWt28MFzwE
1st road very similar to SD KC

[Syn7]

Ummm, no.... Considering the background you claim, you should know what style that is just by looking at it. It's VERY obvious what it is.

[One student]

I saw another video where the instructor was teaching to attack the opponents fist. Multiple hand,elbow, and knee strikes to the FIST! I'm no expert by any means and there might have been a logical reason for that, but I don't see it.
:confused:

I had a Ninjitsu practitioner (from Stephen Hayes' llineage) instruct that their technique says, instead of warding or stopping an attack, attack it: strike, punch, etc., that attacking limb to damage it, and then attack the attacker (not necessarily 1 then 2, also to be simultaneous).

[themeecer]

http://youtu.be/730T4l23qpo
4th road of Hua. KC
http://youtu.be/UdWt28MFzwE
1st road very similar to SD KC

I think that is old news KC.

This was posted some time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjmFosOfZx0&list=PL7D6BE12249731B9A&index=40&feature=plpp_video

[themeecer]

I had a Ninjitsu practitioner (from Stephen Hayes' llineage) instruct that their technique says, instead of warding or stopping an attack, attack it: strike, punch, etc., that attacking limb to damage it, and then attack the attacker (not necessarily 1 then 2, also to be simultaneous).

Several years ago at a TKD tournament our students did very well blocking and punching the TKD students kicks. They started to kick a lot less. It did my heart well. I feel insulted when they expose their groin the entire time they are fighting and we aren't allowed to attack it. (For the record, we allow groin attacks in SD tournaments)

[themeecer]

I had a Ninjitsu practitioner (from Stephen Hayes' llineage) ...

Man I miss ninjas. Can we bring the 80s back?

I could even stomach some Surf Ninjas.

[One student]

Man I miss ninjas. Can we bring the 80s back?

I could even stomach some Surf Ninjas.

You know TMNT's are making a comeback.

[themeecer]

You know TMNT's are making a comeback.

I thought they killed that. Which was good .. because Michael Bay was going to make them aliens.

I may need to sit down and watch Revenge of the Ninja on netflix tonight to get my ninja fix in.

[themeecer]

On a side note, the following video has restored my faith in a brotherhood across martial arts styles. This MMA student brought honor to his teacher and his school.

I know this type of comrade will be foreign to some of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78

[hskwarrior]

The fire whip is a very long rope with something on the end that's on fire. Performed like a rope dart. I've seen master Hiang perform this in his 60's. it was ver impressive. He puts a lot of energy and power in his swings.

yeah. i've seen hawaiian dancers do that same thing. who else have you seen do it?

[hskwarrior]

this is NO honor amongst THIEVES. period.

[hskwarrior]

Many have said the Fukien Shaolin Temple does or did not exist . I found this reference in the Chy Li Fut History.
History and Lineage of Choy Li Fut (Cai Li Fo)



Although known as a Southern system, Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 kung fu has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. The system's founder, Chan Heung 陳享, had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North. Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung fu styles that is strongly influenced by both Northern and Southern Chinese kung-fu, combining the long arm techniques of the South with the quick agile footwork that characterizes Northern China's martial arts.

Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 was founded in 1836 by Chan Heung 陳享, a well-known and highly-skilled martial artist of that period. Also known as Din Ying 典英 and Daht Ting 逹庭, Chan Heung was born on August 23, 1806 (7 moon 10th day of 1806 of the lunar calendar), in King Mui 京梅 (Jing Mei), a village in the San Woi 新會 (Xin Hui) district of Guangdong 廣東 province. His martial arts career began at age seven, when he went to live with his uncle, Chan Yuen-Woo 陳遠護. Yuen-Woo was a famous boxer from the legendary Shaolin temple in Fujian 褔建, China. From Chan Yuen-Woo, Chan Heung learned the art of Southern Shaolin kung-fu,

Well what about that there was a Fujien Shaolin Temple. That is what GMT said all along. KC

i have triad information that mentions the location of the shaolin Temple that was burned down published in 1866.

Sin The also said the shaolin temple was burned down in or around the late 1800's. which one was that? the one on Gau Lin San in Fujian burned down in the 1760's. your monkey guy wasn't around then.

[Scott R. Brown]

this is NO honor amongst THIEVES. period.

Actually, there is, but if you are not a member of the thief's group, it is unlikely you will experience any of it.

[Syn7]

yeah. i've seen hawaiian dancers do that same thing. who else have you seen do it?

It's just a chain whip. The fire is for show. Being hit in the face with a wide swinging plumb drop hurts enough, fire makes no difference. Fire is used in many performance arts in order wow and dazzle the little people.

[bodhi warrior]

yeah. i've seen hawaiian dancers do that same thing. who else have you seen do it?

I've only seen Hiang do it. I've seen Hawaiian dancers use sticks with fire, but not rope. Many Kung fu forms can be compared to a dance. Your style's forms as well.
What separates them from dances is martial intent. And trust me, unlike sin the, Hiang shows martial intent in everything.

[hskwarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
yeah. i've seen hawaiian dancers do that same thing. who else have you seen do it?
I've only seen Hiang do it. I've seen Hawaiian dancers use sticks with fire, but not rope. Many Kung fu forms can be compared to a dance. Your style's forms as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbPsrCZVY4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw0PCW9Syc4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRPougus9G4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzAoP0cZLEw

actually, only those schools who are all about forms do their forms nice and pretty. my HSCLF lineage has always had a combative approach to ALL of our forms. don't get us mixed up with the other CLF we are all not the same.

[Syn7]

You could use a whip with a hollow end piece that has a thin "breakable upon impact" seal and then cover it in some fire retardant fabric. So when you connect, you have a delivery system and an ignition source. Same principle as when you fill and soak a tennis ball in gas then throw it at a wall. Whoosh! A Molotov variation on a chain. Not very useful after the first hit tho.

Otherwise, using fire on a whip is purely decorative. Wallpaper, nothing more...

[hskwarrior]

You could use a whip with a hollow end piece that has a thin "breakable upon impact" seal and then cover it in some fire retardant fabric. So when you connect, you have a delivery system and an ignition source. Same principle as when you fill and soak a tennis ball in gas then throw it at a wall. Whoosh! A Molotov variation on a chain. Not very useful after the first hit tho.

Otherwise, using fire on a whip is purely decorative. Wallpaper, nothing more...
__________________

oh i agree with you there!

[tattooedmonk]

this is NO honor amongst THIEVES. period.

You don't even know what honor is fat boy. Just stfu already you troll! Your CLF is for ****. Cookie cutter **** that everyone does. It's not kung fu . You and your teacher and lineage are a joke and liars too. Shut your @$$ already you ****ing blowhard.

[Syn7]

lol. RELAX sweetheart.


I'm still waiting for a SD clip that comes anywhere near impressive. Two minutes on Youtube will show you hundreds of CLF clips and if you have an eye for quality CMA, it won't take long to find a powerful clip. All I've seen on SD clips are flower dancers and LARPers. Show me. Just one. Everyone else has shown good clips of other styles the practice, but none for SD. Hmmm, wonder why?

I'm not even asking anyone to put themselves out there, just show me a clip of ANYONE from SD doing something powerful. Holding your foot in the air does not a fighter make!

[Kellen Bassette]

i have triad information that mentions the location of the shaolin Temple that was burned down published in 1866.

Sin The also said the shaolin temple was burned down in or around the late 1800's. which one was that? the one on Gau Lin San in Fujian burned down in the 1760's. your monkey guy wasn't around then.

Is the temple that burned in 1866 at the same location where PRC built the new Southern Shaolin Temple recently, or is it somewhere else?

[hskwarrior]

You don't even know what honor is fat boy. Just stfu already you troll! Your CLF is for ****. Cookie cutter **** that everyone does. It's not kung fu . You and your teacher and lineage are a joke and liars too. Shut your @$$ already you ****ing blowhard.

come to SF and make me girly man. fukkin thief. your mother loves my fat ass. my clf will show you a whole new meaning of pain b1tch boy.

TATTOOED BULL DAGGIN B1TCH BOY

YOU'RE JUST MAD CAUSE YOU GOT DOOPED HAHAHAHAHAHA.....TOO GWAI LO TO EVEN KNOW BETTER

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

[hskwarrior]

is the temple that burned in 1866 at the same location where prc built the new southern shaolin temple recently, or is it somewhere else?

what? You didn't read what i wrote?

I said i have information originating from the chinese triads that was founded by the last 5 shaolin monks that survived the destruction of the temple that was burned down in the 1760's.

If there is info about a fujian shaolin temple from 1866, pls post it. And pls, don't post what you heard from shaolin do or sin the. That would be straight up ka ka.

[Snipsky]

oh my goodness.

Tattooed Monk,

how come you not tell everyone your real name?

Shaolin Do is only for the white people. a few black here and there. but mostly is white people who were played like a fiddle by funny looking asian man.

this kid has a colored belt, not white, so this kid must be more advanced, yes? well, i've seen HSK's students, ones who just started with him and they are way better, i talking about extreme much better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ1ipDyT4YE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQfV-nEyLhU

this looks like the teacher didn't know what he was doing...looks make up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk

how come what you guys do looks like "paint by numbers" instead of some hard work?

[hskwarrior]

LMFAO.....

the guy at 11:35 looks like he's about to FLASH DANCE. lMAO.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk

i can't help but to LMFAO that none of the shaolin do people see the karate in their stuff. its fo FULL of it yet they are blinded by the lie told by Sin The.......hahahahahahahaha

[hskwarrior]

at the 7-22 second mark, you will see high level SHAOLIN DO sparring or fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i4Pg-JaZLI

like the song was saying "they're the BEST arounnnnnnnd"

sparring.....or something similar.....LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU

[Scott R. Brown]

at the 7-22 second mark, you will see high level SHAOLIN DO sparring or fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i4Pg-JaZLI

like the song was saying "they're the BEST arounnnnnnnd"

sparring.....or something similar.....LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU

You DO realize that is NOT high level sparring, right?

In fact there was nothing in that vid that was high level!

[hskwarrior]

You DO realize that is NOT high level sparring, right?

In fact there was nothing in that vid that was high level!

:D of course i do. my beginning students spar 100 times better than what was seen in this video. i'm just sayin according to THEM their belts indicate they are at a higher level than their karate white belts.

you and i know that. but THEY seem to let it fly miles over their own heads.

[tattooedmonk]

come to SF and make me girly man. fukkin thief. your mother loves my fat ass. my clf will show you a whole new meaning of pain b1tch boy.

TATTOOED BULL DAGGIN B1TCH BOY

YOU'RE JUST MAD CAUSE YOU GOT DOOPED HAHAHAHAHAHA.....TOO GWAI LO TO EVEN KNOW BETTER

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Yeeeehaaaawww struck a nerve !!! Woooohoooo you are legend in your own mind. You , your lineage and anything and everything you do is a joke . If you were so great you wouldn't be here putting others down. I can bet every SD person here, former or current could easily roll your jelly @$$, you fat fukc! This is about as much attention I can give you... Maybe come so cal @$$wipe and I will show you what being a real martial artist is about , because you obviously need lessons have a great day!:D

[Scott R. Brown]

:D of course i do. my beginning students spar 100 times better than what was seen in this video. i'm just sayin according to THEM their belts indicate they are at a higher level than their karate white belts.

you and i know that. but THEY seem to let it fly miles over their own heads.

Ahh! I see, I missed your point I guess.;)

[tattooedmonk]

:D of course i do. my beginning students spar 100 times better than what was seen in this video. i'm just sayin according to THEM their belts indicate they are at a higher level than their karate white belts.

you and i know that. but THEY seem to let it fly miles over their own heads.

No they dont , liar. I have seen your students and your school. What a joke.

[hskwarrior]

Yeeeehaaaawww struck a nerve !!! Woooohoooo you are legend in your own mind. You , your lineage and anything and everything you do is a joke . If you were so great you wouldn't be here putting others down. I can bet every SD person here, former or current could easily roll your jelly @$$, you fat fukc! This about as much attention I can give you... Maybe come so cal @$$wipe and I will show you what being a real martial artist is about , because you obviously need lessons have a great day!

yeah yeah yeah. you're so close come to SF and show me.

if you guys were so great you wouldn't be stealing material from other authentic schools with TRUE histories.

put your money where your mouth is MOUTH BOXER. you must have very callused finger tips from all your typing.


No they dont , liar. I have seen your students and your school. What a joke.

Simple solution. come and find out. we will video tape it for the whole world to see. win or lose. i'd bet the ENTIRE forum that you would never bring yourself and your students to a slaughter.

[tattooedmonk]

oh my goodness.

Tattooed Monk,

how come you not tell everyone your real name?

Shaolin Do is only for the white people. a few black here and there. but mostly is white people who were played like a fiddle by funny looking asian man.

this kid has a colored belt, not white, so this kid must be more advanced, yes? well, i've seen HSK's students, ones who just started with him and they are way better, i talking about extreme much better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ1ipDyT4YE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQfV-nEyLhU

this looks like the teacher didn't know what he was doing...looks make up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk

how come what you guys do looks like "paint by numbers" instead of some hard work?
I already gave my real name...:rolleyes: you don't know what you are talking about at all, so why not stfu now!? Anything positive to contribute yet!? Didn't think so!

[hskwarrior]

I already gave my real name... you don't know what you are talking about at all, so why not stfu now!? Anything positive to contribute yet!? Didn't thing so.

of course you didn't THING so. just like your fake ass shaolin do, you can't even spell right. lol

oh i found you!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R8fkA_3wxJo/TiF7vboh7TI/AAAAAAAAALc/nsdtIknHvxY/s400/Fairy+Tattoo+%2528108%2529.jpg

http://datas.evilox.com/medias/photos/tatoo-my-vagina-is-beautiful/photo/tatoo-my-vagina-is-beautiful.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

I guess people can't post of videos and stuff for fun , Or take martial arts classes for anything other than beating people up or posing . Of course it all has to come from a legit lenage and everyone has to be great fighters and super poseurs. It all has to be perfect and uniform and be exactly the way everyone else does it.

You guys pick on children/ little boys just like real life trolls do... :eek:

[hskwarrior]

I guess people can't post of videos and stuff for fun , Or take martial arts classes for anything other than beating people up or posing . Of course it all has to come from a legit lenage and everyone has to be great fighters and super poseurs. It all has to be perfect and uniform and be exactly the way everyone else does it.

easy solution. stop your b1tchin (but thats what pussies do) and join real school.
stop your pretending, its not halloween

[wenshu]

I'm still waiting for a SD clip that comes anywhere near impressive.

Just show us a clip that demonstrates a well practiced and distinct unity of style that isn't obviously lifted from a video.

Seriously, they can't even do that. I guess it's easier to express false outrage over the lack of decorum for challenging them than to whip out a camera phone and film a quick workout.

[tattooedmonk]

easy solution. stop your b1tchin (but thats what pussies do) and join real school.
stop your pretending, its not halloween

You are the one who's *****ing, ****. Keep crying about your little form there .... As you can see its helping you gain more nut riders by the post.

[tattooedmonk]

of course you didn't THING so. just like your fake ass shaolin do, you can't even spell right. lol

oh i found you!!!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R8fkA_3wxJo/TiF7vboh7TI/AAAAAAAAALc/nsdtIknHvxY/s400/Fairy+Tattoo+%2528108%2529.jpg

http://datas.evilox.com/medias/photos/tatoo-my-vagina-is-beautiful/photo/tatoo-my-vagina-is-beautiful.jpg
Looks like you lost some weight....are you really a woman or a tranny!?

[hskwarrior]

You are the one who's *****ing, ****. Keep crying about your little form there .... As you can see its helping you gain more nut riders by the post.

wipe da sand out of your vajayjay. it must suck bad to be you huh? LOL

[tattooedmonk]

wipe da sand out of your vajayjay. it must suck bad to be you huh? LOL

With all this posting you are doing its obvious you are the one with sand in the vag. Get over it ya little c.u.n.t.

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481487_10151194025822732_2017152416_n.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

Hahaha that's funny! Now you have my name on your back, now you my biatch!

[hskwarrior]

you vajay jay kinda looks like the face of a preying mantis! tattooed wannabe


Hahaha that's funny! Now you have my name on your back, now you my biatch!

yeah that way if i get jumped from behind they can fuk you up first. LOL. sucks to be you....

[tattooedmonk]

you vajay jay kinda looks like the face of a preying mantis! tattooed wannabe



yeah that way if i get jumped from behind they can fuk you up first. LOL. sucks to be you....

Weak..... You don't have any comebacks because all the c-u-m is in the back of your mouth!

[hskwarrior]

Weak..... You don't have any comebacks because all the c-u-m is in the back of your mouth!

:( yeah, ur're right. yer just so g-a-n-g-s-t-a ! :( eye lose.

[Kellen Bassette]

what? You didn't read what i wrote?

I said i have information originating from the chinese triads that was founded by the last 5 shaolin monks that survived the destruction of the temple that was burned down in the 1760's.

If there is info about a fujian shaolin temple from 1866, pls post it. And pls, don't post what you heard from shaolin do or sin the. That would be straight up ka ka.

Yes I did read what you wrote. And I quoted you. Here, again, is what you wrote

Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
i have triad information that mentions the location of the shaolin Temple that was burned down published in 1866.

Sin The also said the shaolin temple was burned down in or around the late 1800's. which one was that? the one on Gau Lin San in Fujian burned down in the 1760's. your monkey guy wasn't around then.

end quote.

Apparently, I missed the "published" part and read that as the temple burned down in 1866. Your post was pretty unclear and I was asking you, since you have the information, if this was the same temple that PRC has recently rebuilt and now promotes as the Southern Shaolin Temple, or a different one.

But since your always on the defensive you take every question as an attack on you or your system.

I have already told you I have no affiliation with Shaolin Do of Sin The, never have...what's up with that?

[hskwarrior]

Your post was pretty unclear and I was asking you, since you have the information, if this was the same temple that PRC has recently rebuilt and now promotes as the Southern Shaolin Temple, or a different one.

But since your always on the defensive you take every question as an attack on you or your system.

I have already told you I have no affiliation with Shaolin Do of Sin The, never have...what's up with that?



i've never been to the site they currently are exploring. However, it was on what was then or perhaps even now called Gau Lin San. there was a village at the bottom of the mountain.

although no one is 100% convinced about the location, the figures involved all go back to the same time period.

[Kellen Bassette]

i've never been to the site they currently are exploring. However, it was on what was then or perhaps even now called Gau Lin San. there was a village at the bottom of the mountain.

although no one is 100% convinced about the location, the figures involved all go back to the same time period.

Either way there will be a ton of money made off it...for better or worse...

[brucereiter]

Just show us a clip that demonstrates a well practiced and distinct unity of style that isn't obviously lifted from a video.

Seriously, they can't even do that. I guess it's easier to express false outrage over the lack of decorum for challenging them than to whip out a camera phone and film a quick workout.

There are several clips of my sd practice linked below.

I welcome your observations of my practice that I have shared on YouTube.
Some here have made blanket statements that I think are not accurate.

What you see in these videos is what I learned at the csc atlanta. I am no longer involved in the system for previously stated reasons but I do value much of what I learned from my teacher who happened to be a student of sin the.

It would be interesting to see a video of you (everyone in this discussion) practicing your martial art. Maybe you have some videos you could link of your own practice. Forms, applications, fighting etc???

[kwaichang]

History and Lineage of Choy Li Fut (Cai Li Fo)



Although known as a Southern system, Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 kung fu has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. The system's founder, Chan Heung 陳享, had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North. Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung fu styles that is strongly influenced by both Northern and Southern Chinese kung-fu, combining the long arm techniques of the South with the quick agile footwork that characterizes Northern China's martial arts.

Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 was founded in 1836 by Chan Heung 陳享, a well-known and highly-skilled martial artist of that period. Also known as Din Ying 典英 and Daht Ting 逹庭, Chan Heung was born on August 23, 1806 (7 moon 10th day of 1806 of the lunar calendar), in King Mui 京梅 (Jing Mei), a village in the San Woi 新會 (Xin Hui) district of Guangdong 廣東 province. His martial arts career began at age seven, when he went to live with his uncle, Chan Yuen-Woo 陳遠護. Yuen-Woo was a famous boxer from the legendary Shaolin temple in Fujian 褔建, China. From Chan Yuen-Woo, Chan Heung learned the art of Southern Shaolin kung-fu, and became so proficient at it that by age fifteen he could defeat any challenger from nearby villages. By the time he reached his seventeenth year, Chan Heung was ready to assimilate more martial skills. So Chan Yuen-Woo took him to Li Yau-San 李友山, Yuen Woo's senior classmate from the Southern Shaolin temple. Chan Heung spent the next four years perfecting his kung-fu under Li Yau-San's careful eye.

It was apparent to Li Yau-San 李友山 that after only four years of training, Chan Heung was again ready to move on to higher levels. In ten years, he had already reached a level in kung-fu that had taken Chan Yuen-Woo and Li Yau-San twenty years to attain. Li Yau-San suggested a Shaolin monk who lived as a recluse on Lau Fu 羅浮山 mountain as the best teacher for Chan Heung. The only problem was that the monk, Choy Fook 蔡褔, no longer wished to teach martial arts. He wanted only to be left alone to cultivate Buddhism. Realizing that reaching his highest potential in kung fu meant finding the monk and becoming his disciple, Chan Heung set out on the long trek to Lau Fu mountain.

Choy Fook was a Buddhist monk whose head had been seriously burned when he took his Buddhist vows and had healed with ugly scars. This gave him the nickname "Monk with the Wounded Head 爛頭和尙 ." Armed with that knowledge, Chan Heung sought out anyone on Lau Fu mountain who could help him find Choy Fook 蔡褔. Finally, he located the monk, and handed him a letter of recommendation from Li Yau-San 李友山. After waiting patiently to be accepted as Choy Fook's disciple, he was stunned when Choy Fook turned him down. After much begging from Chan Heung, Choy Fook agreed to take the young man as a student—but only to study Buddhism. So, Chan Heung studied Buddhism for many hours a day with the monk of the scarred head, and practiced his martial arts by himself, far into the night.

Early one morning, Chan Heung 陳享 was practicing his kung fu, sweeping both legs across heavy bamboo bush and kicking up stones, then smashing them to pieces before they hit the ground. Suddenly, the monk appeared and asked him if that were the best he could do. Chan Heung was shocked when Choy Fook 蔡褔 pointed to a large rock weighing more than thirty kilograms and told him to kick it twelve feet. Bracing himself, Chan Heung exerted all of his strength as his foot crashed against the rock, sending it barely twelve feet away. Instead of giving the expected compliment, Choy Fook placed his own foot under the heavy rock and effortlessly propelled it through the air. Chan Heung was awestruck by this demonstration of "superpower." Again he begged Choy Fook to take him as a martial arts disciple. This time the monk agreed, and for eight years Choy Fook taught Chan Heung both the way of Buddhism and the way of martial arts.

When he was twenty-nine, Chan Heung 陳享 left the monk and went back to King Mui village, where he spent the next two years revising and refining all that he had learned from Choy Fook. Chan Heung had now developed a new system of kung fu. In 1836 he formally established the Choy Li Fut system, naming it in honor of two of his teachers, Choy Fook 蔡褔 and Li Yau-San 李友山, and used the word Fut 佛, which means "Buddha" in Chinese, to pay homage to his uncle, Chan Yuen Woo 陳遠護, and to the Shaolin roots of the new system. Chan Heung set up a martial arts school in the local family temple of his village to teach the new system. As his reputation spread, hundreds of people from nearby villages came to learn Choy Li Fut. Shortly after Chang Heung established his new school, the Opium Wars broke out in China. Like many other loyal Chinese, Chan Heung joined the army in Canton to fight against the British invaders. Following China's defeat in 1842, he returned home to his family.

Political corruption from within the Manchurian-controlled Ching dynasty 清朝 had contributed to China's defeat. Between 1847 and 1850 many Chinese leaders formed secret societies to combat the evil forces of the Ching. Under the leadership of Hong Xiu-Quan 洪秀全, the Triad Rebellion broke out against the Imperial forces in Guangxi 廣西. Hong's rebels defeated the government troops in 1850 and for the next two decades the Tai Ping Tian Guo 太平天國 kingdom ruled China. During the rebellion, Chan Heung's followers urged him to join in the revolt. However, he was a devout Buddhist and shunned the path of violence. Nevertheless, he continued to train his followers in case the need arose to do battle against the corrupt Ching rulers.

When the Imperial army sought to recruit men from his area to fight against the rebel forces, Chan Heung 陳享 left his home in King Mui with his wife and two children. Finally forced by the needless fighting and destruction to participate actively, he set up many Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 schools in Southern China to spread revolutionary ideas against the Manchurians. He gave his followers a special signal for future battlefield reunions: Whoever belonged to the Choy Li Fut system would cry out "Wak" when thrusting with a tiger claw hand, "Dik" when kicking, "Yak'' when striking with his fist or palm, "Ha" when striking with tsop chui and tsang jeung, and "Hok" for the crane beak strikes. These are the original five sounds of Choy Li Fut.

[kwaichang]

When the Tai Ping Tian Guo 太平天國 succumbed in 1864, Chan Heung 陳享 left China. At age fifty-nine he became the martial arts teacher for the Chan Family Association overseas. He stayed abroad four years, and then returned home to King Mui, where he was able to see his own kung fu system gain tremendous popularity throughout Southern China. On the lunar calendar 8th moon 20, 1875, at the age of sixty-nine, Chan Heung died. He was buried in his beloved village of King Mui. But his memory lives on, perpetuated in the kung-fu system that he established.

After Chan Heung's death, his Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 legacy passed on to his two sons, Chan On-Pak 陳安伯 and Chan Koon-Pak 陳官伯. Chan On-Pak, born in 1845 and the older of the two brothers, looked like and had the gentle nature of a scholar. His specialty was the spear. Chan On-Pak's control of the spear was so advanced that he gained the nickname yet "Cheung Ng Mui Fa" 一槍五梅花 or "Five Blossoms with One Lance." In 1894, two of Chan On-Pak's students, Cheng Si-Leung 鄭士良 and Chan Siu-Bak 陳少白, helped the revolutionary forces of Dr. Sun Yat-Sin 孫逸仙 fight against the Ching dynasty and lay the foundation of the Republic of China.

The younger son, Chan Koon Pak, left King Mui to become a merchant in Kong Moon 江門市(Jiangmen) City, where his fame as a martial artist spread quickly. He soon had no time to spend as a merchant and devoted all of his efforts teaching Choy Li Fut. Chan Koon Pak later established a large Choy Li Fut training center in Guangzhou 廣州.

Chan Heung had eighteen original Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 disciples, known as the eighteen Lohan 十八羅漢. In 1848, the original eighteen started branching out to teach Choy Li Fut throughout Southern China. The first disciple to teach Choy Li Fut outside of King Mui was Lung Ji-Choi 龍子才, who opened a kung fu school in the town of Xunzhou 潯州 in Guangxi 廣西 province. Soon after, Chan Din-Foon 陳典桓 initiated the first Hung Sing Choy Li Fut school in Fut San 佛山 (Foshan). Other of the original eighteen disciples who promoted the new kung fu system were: Chan Din-Yao 陳典尤 in Nan Hai 南海; Chan Dai-Yup 陳大揖 in Guangzhou 廣州; Chan Din-Sing 陳典承 in Zhongshan 中山; Chan Mau-Jong 陳謀莊 in Panyu 番禺; Chan Din-Bong 陳典邦 in Dong Guan 東莞; Chan Din-Wai 陳典惠 in Kaiping 開平; Chan Din-Jen 陳典珍 in Taishan 台山; Chan Sun-Dong 陳孫棟 in Enping 恩平; Chan Din-Dak 陳典德 at Heshan 鶴山; Chan Dai-Wai 陳大威 in Zhaoqing 肇慶; Chan Sing-Hin 陳承顯 in Xinhuicheng 新會城; Chan Yin-Yu 陳燕瑜at Jiangmen 江門. And admirable tasks were performed by Chan Dai-Sing 陳大成, Chan Din-Seng 陳典勝, Chan Mau-Wing 陳謀榮 , and Chan Din-Gung 陳典拱, who taught Choy Li Fut in twenty-six villages in the King Mui 京梅 area.

In 1867, Chan Heung 陳享 sent one of his next batch of student, Jeong Yim 張炎 to Fut San 佛山 (Foshan) to take over the school originally established by Chan Din-Foon 陳典桓 in 1848. Eventually, Jeong Yim became known as the "father of the Hung Sing School of Choy Li Fut" in Fut San.

It is generally thought that there are two schools of Choy Li Fut: hung sing 洪勝 and bak sing 北勝, and that there are two representatives of the hung sing school. During the revolution of the mid-1800s, the Hung Moon 洪門 Party represented all revolutionary factions, including Choy Li Fut representatives. Choy Li Fut schools had a secret slogan during these times: "Hung 洪 Ying 英 Ji 至 Sing 聖 ; Ying英 Hung 雄 Wing 永 Sing 勝. " This translates as: "Heroes of the Hung Party are superior; Heroes always win." Chan Heung's followers adopted two words of the motto as their secret passwords “Hung Sing 洪勝” which meant "Hung Party wins." But, because that was too close to the outlawed Hung Moon Party name, they changed it to another slogan which sounds the same as Hung Sing 鴻勝, but means "goose winning."

Meanwhile, the Fut San Choy Li Fut School of Jeong Yim 張炎 bore the name "Hung Sing Kwoon 鴻勝舘" (using the "Hung" that means goose). Some of his students began referring to him as Jeong Hung Sing 張鴻勝. By the time his school had developed a third generation of students, the true meaning of "Hung Sing" had been lost, and his third generation students believed him to be the founder of a type of Choy Li Fut known as Hung Sing Choy Li Fut. To clarify the issue, Chan Heung's son, Koon-Pak 官伯, changed the name Hung 鴻 Sing to a different Hung 雄 meaning "strong." From that time on, Choy Li Fut schools in Koon Pak's King Mui area designated themselves with the slogan Hung Sing 雄勝, meaning "Strong Winning," while the Fut San schools kept their "goose winning" Hung Sing 鴻勝 motto. Hence, the belief that there are two Hung Sing Choy Li Fut schools.

The Bak Sing 北勝 branch of Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 can be traced back to Jeong Yim 張炎 in Fut San. Jeong Yim had three principal students. One of them was Lui Chaun 雷粲, who had a student named Tam Sam 譚三. Tam Sam had a Choy Li Fut school in Guangzhou, in a district called Siu Bak 小北 (which translates as "little north"). His school bore the name Siu Bak Hung Sing Choy Li Fut Club. That name was too long to be spoken comfortably, so it was changed to Bak Sing Choy Li Fut to pay respects to their teacher, Tam Sam’s students referred to themselves as the Bak Sing branch of Choy Li Fut.

The most famous student and also the successor of Jeong Yim 張炎 was Chan Ngau-Sing 陳牛盛. Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong 黄德輝’s second teacher, Dr. Hu Yuen Chou (Woo Van Cheuk) 胡雲綽 studied from him from the age of nine in Fut San Hung Sing School’s headquarters. Lau Bun 劉彬 was Grandmaster Wong’s first Choy Li Fut teacher; he learned his kung fu from Yuen Hai 阮系, one of the three principal students of Jeong Yim 張炎. The heritage of these two famous teachers of our Grandmaster who handed down the powerful fighting art to us is called the Fut San 佛山 lineage because it is from the Hung Sing School of Fut San city, Guangdong 廣東 province.

Dr. Hu Yuen-Chou’s second Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 teacher was Chan Yiu-Chi 陳耀墀, the grandson of the founder. Dr. Hu spent 20 years of his training time with Chan Yiu-Chi and became one of the four major pillar instructors of the school who had gained the name the “Four Great Heavenly Kings 四大天王” of Choy Li Fut in Guangzhou. Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong 黄德輝 is the successor of Dr. Hu Yuen Chou (Woo Van Cheuk) 胡雲綽. From this lineage we got the name King Mui 京梅, because the founder’s family came from the King Mui village.

Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong’s third teacher in Choy Li Fut 蔡李佛 was Wong Gong 黄江. Wong Gong’s two teachers were Chan Cheong-Mo 陳長毛 and Chan Yan 陳恩; they were the students of Choy Li Fut founder’s elderly son, Chan On-Pak 陳安伯. From this lineage, we received most of the internal forms and animal forms that were handed down from Chan On-Pak. Great-grandmaster Wong Gong named his lineage Kong Chow 岡州 (Gangzhou) because in the old days, the district of Choy Li Fut’s hometown was called Kong Chow before the Republic of China. Now Jiangmen is the name of the city, therefore the lineage name has been changed to The Jiangmen branch or lineage

[brucereiter]

All I've seen on SD clips are flower dancers and LARPers. Show me. Just one. Everyone else has shown good clips of other styles the practice, but none for SD. Hmmm, wonder why?

I'm not even asking anyone to put themselves out there, just show me a clip of ANYONE from SD doing something powerful. Holding your foot in the air does not a fighter make!

See my videos linked below. Do you consider my practice "flower dancing" or "larping"?

You may have posted your practice in the past but i have not sceen it. can you post a link to share some of your practice?

[kwaichang]

The monk warriors used their special talents, eventually helped the local Tang soldiers to surpress the riot successfully, but quite a mumber of them died in the battle. When they were about to return to Songshan Shaolin Temple, the local people asked them for continuous protection. For the bury of the dead monks and the people's wish, Dao Guang and his warrior monks got the master's permission from Songshan Shaolin Temple and settled down in Linquan Complex in Putian. Simliar to Shaolin Temple, Linquan Complex was buit to be a southern branch, and then it was called Southern Shaolin Temple. By the Song Dynasty, the Southern Shaolin Temple became a center for the spread of Chan Buddhist philosophy and martial arts.

The Southern Shaolin temple was burned down once during the regime of Kangxi Emperor in the Qing Dynasty. The temple was a base for the movement of Ming restoration against the Manchu rulers at that time. Now the Southern Shaolin Temple you see was rebuit later.

I wouldnt believe a Tong Member they atre Chinese Mafia. KC

[hskwarrior]

THE FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON WAS FOUNDED IN 1851 BY JEUNG HUNG SING (JEUNG AH YIM), A NATIVE OF SUN WUI COUNTY'S DONG LING VILLAGE. HE WAS AN ORPHAN WHO ENDURED A LIFETIME OF STRUGGLE AND MOVED ON TO BECOME ONE OF SOUTHERN CHINA'S GREATEST FIGHTERS. THE LEGACY HE STARTED SO LONG AGO IS STILL FLOURISHING IN MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD TODAY.

IN 1824 DURING THE QING DYNASTY, JEUNG AH YIM WAS BORN IN THE DONG LING VILLAGE AND UNDER THE CARE OF HIS UNCLE NAME JEUNG KWAN. HIS PARENTS ARE RUMORED TO HAVE BEEN KILLED WHEN HE WAS VERY YOUNG. AND, HE ALSO TRAINED IN THE ART OF LEE GAR PRIOR TO TURNING 12 YEARS OLD UNDER LEE YAU SAN, THE FOUNDER OF LEE GAR WHO WAS TEACHING IN THE SUN WUI AREA AT THE TIME.

IN 1836 JEUNG KWAN HAD TO LEAVE DONG LING VILLAGE ON BUSINESS AND WAS UNSURE IF HE WOULD RETURN. HE COULDN'T TAKE JEUNG YIM WITH HIM AND NEEDED TO FIND SOMEONE HE CAN TRUST TO LOOK AFTER HIS NEPHEW. THE ONLY PERSON HE COULD THINK OF WAS IN THE CHAN VILLAGE OF KING MUI. SO, WHEN THE TIME CAME TOGETHER JEUNG KWAN AND JEUNG YIM TRAVELED TO KING MUI TO MEET WITH HIS OLD FRIEND. UNCERTAIN OF THE OUTCOME ALL HE COULD DO WAS HOPE FOR THE BEST.

ONCE THEY ARRIVED IN KING MUI JEUNG KWAN MET WITH HIS OLD FRIEND CHAN HEUNG, WHO, WAS THE FOUNDER OF A NEWLY CREATED MARTIAL ARTS SYSTEM CALLED CHOY LEE FUT THAT SAME YEAR (1836). UNFORTUNATELY, AFTER JEUNG KWAN EXPLAINED HIS SITUATION CHAN HEUNG WAS FORCED TO REFUSE HELP TO HIS OLD FRIEND BECAUSE OF VILLAGE RULES. THEREFOR, ONLY THOSE WITH THE CHAN SURNAME WERE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN THE VILLAGE.

JEUNG KWAN PLEADED WITH CHAN HEUNG TO CHANGE HIS MIND. AFTER GIVING SOME THOUGHT TO IT, CHAN HEUNG DEVISED A PLAN TO TAKE THE YOUNG JEUNG YIM IN AS A GROUNDS KEEPER/HANDY MAN. HOWEVER, THERE WAS ONE CONDITION, JEUNG YIM WASN'T ALLOWED TO LEARN THE CHOY LEE FUT SYSTEM BECAUSE HE WASN'T A FAMILY MEMBER. JEUNG KWAN WAS PLEASE WITH THE ARRANGEMENT, THANKED CHAN HEUNG AND WAS ON HIS WAY.

CHAN HEUNG WAS UNAWARE OF JEUNG YIM'S MARTIAL ARTS BACKGROUND AND HAD NO IDEA HE POSSESSED A STRONG PASSION FOR LEARNING GUNG FU. NEITHER DID HE KNOW THAT WHILE JEUNG YIM WAS DOING HIS DAILY CHORES HE WAS SECRETLY WATCHING HIM TEACH CHOY LEE FUT TO HIS STUDENTS. lATE AT NIGHT WHILE EVERYONE SLEPT, JEUNG YIM WOULD PRACTICE HIS STOLEN GUNG FU, PERFECTING IT UNDER THE COVER OF DARKNESS. THEN ONE NIGHT WHILE JEUNG YIM WAS BUSY PRACTICING HE FAILED TO NOTICE CHAN HEUNG WATCHING HIM IN THE SHADOWS. BUT INSTEAD OF BEING UPSET, HE WAS GREATLY IMPRESSED THAT THIS YOUNG MAN COULD EXCEL SO QUICKLY WITHOUT PROPER TEACHING.

CHAN HEUNG STEPPED OUT INTO THE LIGHT AND CONFRONTED JEUNG YIM. EMBARASSED THAT HE WAS CAUGHT IN THE ACT, JEUNG YIM ADMITTED TO MEMORIZING THE CHOY LEE FUT TECHNIQUES WHILE HE DID HIS CHORES. HE KNEW THE ONLY TIME HE'D GET TO PRACTICE WAS WHILE EVERYONE WAS ASLEEP. AMAZINGLY, INSTEAD OF REPRIMANDING JEUNG YIM, CHAN HEUNG CHOSE TO PERSONALLY TAKE HIM UNDER HIS WING AND CONTINUE TRAINING HIM DURING THE MIDNIGHT HOURS. ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS KEEP THEIR TRAINING A SECRET FROM THE OTHERS.

FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS (1836-1841) JEUNG YIM WAS WORKING HARD AT MASTERING THE BASICS OF CHOY LEE FUT (CONTINUALLY EVOLVING SINCE IT WAS A NEW FIGHTING SYSTEM). HE WAS 17 YEARS OLD AND HIGHLY SKILLED IN GUNG FU WHICH GAVE HIM ALOT OF PRIDE. HOWEVER, AS BEING THE OUTSIDER IN THE CHAN VILLAGE, HE WAS CONSTANTLY PICKED ON BY SOME OF CHAN HEUNG'S STUDENTS. ONE AFTERNOON WHILE CHAN HEUNG WAS OUT ON SOME BUSINESS THOSE STUDENTS FINALLY PUSHED THE RIGHT BUTTON AND FORCED JEUNG YIM TO EXPOSE HIS TRAINING BY DEFENDING HIMSELF AND INJURING A FEW OF THE STUDENTS IN THE FIGHT. AFTERWARDS, THOSE STUDENTS RAN AND TOLD THEIR PARENTS WHO THEN COMPLAINED ABOUT HIM TO CHAN HEUNG FOR LETTING THE OUTSIDER LIVE IN THEIR VILLAGE.

CHAN HEUNG HAD NO OTHER CHOICE BUT TO ASK JEUNG YIM TO LEAVE KING MUI. BUT, BEFORE HE DID HE INSTRUCTED JEUNG YIM THAT IF HE WANTED TO COMPLETE HIS GUNG FU TRAINING HE SHOULD GO TO THE GUANGXI PROVINCE WHERE AN EX SHAOLIN MONK WITH THE NAME CHING CHO (GREEN GRASS) COULD BE FOUND AT PAK PAI MOUNTAIN. THE NAME OF THIS MOUNTAIN DOESN'T EXIST TODAY, BUT IT IS EXTREMELY POSSIBLE THAT ITS NAME WAS CHANGED. IN CHINA'S HISTORY, MANY DIFFERENT MOUNTAINS OF TODAY WERE KNOWN BY ANOTHER NAME IN THE OLD DAYS. THE PAK PAI MOUNTAINS ALSO EXISTED IN THE HISTORIES IN OTHER STYLES SUCH AS HUNG FUT.

IN 1841, THE 17 YEAR OLD JEUNG YIM SAID HIS GOODBYES TO HIS TEACHER AND WOULD NOT SEE HIM AGAIN FROM ALMOST 30 YEARS LATER. HE TRAVELED TO GUANGXI WHERE HE CAME ACROSS AN ELDERLY GENTLEMAN AND ASKED IF HE KNEW THE WHEREABOUTS OF A MONK BY THE NAME OF CHING CHO. THE OLD MAN ANSWERED HIM AND SAID HE NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A PERSON. BUT WHAT JEUNG YIM DIDN'T KNOW WAS THAT THIS OLD MAN WAS INDEED MONK CHING CHO. AND THE OLD MONK WASN'T JUST GOING TO OPENLY REVEAL HIMSELF.

*THE GREEN GRASS MONK IS BEING ERRONEOUSLY IDENTIFIED WITH CHAN HEUNG'S TEACHER MONK CHOY FOOK. THIS IDEA IS TO BE THROWN OUT OF YOUR MIND BECAUSE IT WAS OUTRIGHT THEFT OF CHARACTER. HE IS NOT NOR WILL HE EVER BE MONK CHOY FOOK.-DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

THE GREEN GRASS MONK WAS ONE OF SOUTHERN CHINA'S MOST WANTED REVOLUTIONARIES DURING THE QING DYNASTY. HE WAS THE FOUNDER OF WHAT WAS ONCE THE MOST POWERFUL TONG IN ALL OF SOUTHERN CHINA AND CO-FOUNDED A SECRET SOCIETY. FOR SAFETY REASONS, THE GREEN GRASS MONK HAD TO KEEP HIS IDENTITY A SECRET UNTIL HE KNEW JEUNG YIM WASN'T A GOVERNMENT ASSASSIN. BUT HE WAS CURIOUS TO SEE JEUNG YIM'S GUNG FU AND ASKED FOR A SIMPLE DEMONSTRATION.

JEUNG YIM WAS PROUD OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN GUNG FU SO FAR AND SHOWED OFF A LITTLE FOR THE OLD MAN. THE GREEN GRASS MONK RECOGNIZED HIS GUNG FU AS BEING AUTHENTIC SHAOLIN AND IMMEDIATELY REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TO JEUNG YIM. IT WAS THAT POINT THAT MONK CHING CHO ACCEPTED HIM AS A STUDENT AND BEGAN TEACHING HIM THE ART OF FUT GAR KUEN. ALTHOUGH, GUNG FU WASN'T THE ONLY THING JEUNG YIM WAS ABOUT TO LEARN FROM THE GREEN GRASS MONK.

IN 1849, JEUNG YIM COMPLETED HIS GUNG FU TRAINING UNDER THE GREEN GRASS MONK. IN ADDITION TO THIS, THE MONK ALSO PERSONALLY GROOMED HIM TO FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION. THE GREEN GRASS MONK INSTRUCTED JEUNG YIM TO GO TO THE CITY OF FUT SAN WHERE THE ENTIRE CITY WAS PREPARING FOR THE TAI PING REBELLION. HE WAS TO CONTACT THE LEADERS OF THE SECRET SOCIETY THERE AND OFFER TO TRAIN FREEDOM FIGHTERS IN THE ART OF FUT GAR KUEN. HOWEVER, PRIOR TO JEUNG YIM'S DEPARTURE, THE GREEN GRASS MONK HAD ONE MORE THING HE WANTED TO PASS ON TO HIS STUDENT.

THE GREEN GRASS MONK KNEW THAT THIS COULD BE THE LAST TIME HE SAW JEUNG YIM AND WANTED TO GIVE HIM SOMETHING AS A REMINDER OF HIM AND HIS CAUSE. HE WANTED TO CHANGE HIS NAME FROM "YIM" TO "HUNG SING" BECAUSE THIS NAME CONTAINED A SECRET MESSAGE. THE MESSAGE WAS "THE HUNG SOCIETY WOULD BE VICTORIOUS IN OVERTHROWING THE QING DYNASTY" AND "HUNG SING" WAS THE ABREVIATED VERSION OF THIS MESSAGE. THEREBY GIVING THIS NAME TO JEUNG YIM, THE MESSAGE WOULD LIVE ON AS LONG AS JEUNG YIM WAS ALIVE. IT WAS NOT A SECRET SLOGAN USED BY THE KING MUI CHOY LEE FUT STUDENTS AS SOME TRY TO PASS OVER AS THE TRUTH.

THE ORIGIN OF THE HUNG SING NAME GIVEN TO JEUNG YIM BY MONK CHING CHO BELONGS TO THE HUNG MUN AND PRIOR TO JEUNG YIM IT HAD NO CONNECTION TO CHOY LEE FUT GUNG FU AT ALL.

THE NEWLY NAMED JEUNG HUNG SING SAID HIS GOODBYES AND MADE HIS WAY TO THE CITY OF FUT SAN, A MAJOR HUB FOR HARD CORE REVOLUTIONARIES AND GUNG FU STYLES SUCH AS WING CHUN AND HUNG GAR KUEN. HIS HUNG SING NAME SORT OF WORKED AS A PASS KEY FOR THE LEADERS OF THE SECRETY SOCIETY IN FUT SAN. ONCE HE MADE CONTACT WITH THEM, THE NEXT THING HE HAD TO DO WAS MEET WITH FUT SAN'S MARTIAL TOP DAWG, WHO, HAPPENED TO BE LEUNG JAN, IP MAN'S SIGUNG (GRAND MASTER). AFTER AN UNFORTUNATE SITUATION WITH LEUNG JAN'S STUDENT, LEUNG JAN HIMSELF CHALLENGED JEUNG HUNG SING TO A CLOSED DOOR STAFF DUEL. NEEDLESS TO SAY, IN THE OUTCOME JEUNG HUNG SING WAS GIVEN PERMISSION TO OPEN HIS SCHOOL AND THE TWO OF THEM EVENTUALLY BECAME GREAT FRIENDS.

IN THE PAST, PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO CLAIM THAT JEUNG HUNG SING WAS SENT TO FUT SAN BY CHAN HEUNG. SADLY, THIS IS COMPLETELY INCORRECT. JEUNG HUNG SING HAD BEEN OUT OF THE CHOY LEE FUT PICTURE FROM 1841-1867 ( 26 YEARS).

BETWEEN 1849-1851 HE EXCLUSIVELY TAUGHT FREEDOM FIGHTERS PREPARING FOR THE UP AND COMING REVOLUTION. THEN IN PERFECT TIMING WITH THE LAUNCHING OF THE TAI PING REBELLION (1851) JEUNG HUNG SING OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED HIS HUNG SING KWOON.

THE FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON WAS ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE REVOLUTION AND CONSTANTLY MAKING THE NEWS. ALTHOUGH MANY YEARS HAD PASSED SINCE THE LAST TIME SINCE CHAN HEUNG SAW JEUNG HUNG SING, WORD OF HIS ACHIEVEMENTS MADE IT ALL THE BACK TO KING MUI. STILL, THE REVOLUTION WASN'T THE ONLY THING JEUNG HUNG SING WAS INVOLVED IN. HE WAS BUSY DEVELOPING HIS OWN FIGHTING SYSTEM WHICH WAS PRIMARILY FUT GAR KUEN BASED MIXED WITH THE BASICS OF CHOY LEE FUT HE PICKED UP FROM CHAN HEUNG. BUT ALL THE WHILE SINCE JEUNG HUNG SING HAS BEEN OF THE PICTURE, CHAN HEUNG CONTINUED TO DEVELOP HIS CHOY LEE FUT MINUS THE PRESENCE OF JEUNG HUNG SING .

[hskwarrior]

It's widely believed within the fut san hung sing and buk sing kwoons that the original name of jeung hung sing's art was called "fut gar jing jung" ("佛家正宗" ) and often referred to as hung sing kuen meaning jeung yim's style, or even "the method of hung sing." still, at this time he was representing the green grass monk moreso than chan heung because he never completed his choy lee fut training but he did finish the fut gar kuen style.

Five years of dedicated training to any system is no small feat. In fact in that time jeung hung sing could have easily mastered choy lee fut basics as its alleged that he would teach chan heung's choy lee fut as they traveled around spreading chan heung's art.

Regardless, from 1851-1864 jeung hung sing was busy taking on all challengers interested in making a name for themselves and fighting in the revolution. He never lost a match until he reached his 60's and only lost one by a single stroke. Most of his challengers wound up becoming his students while others turned to the police out of jealousy to inform on their revolutionary activities. During this time the qing government closed the hung sing kwoon down on numerous occasions and jeung hung sing and his students had to flee the city to avoid having their heads cut off. Instant beheading was the penalty for anyone caught in association with the outlawed hung society.

In 1864 the fut san hung sing kwoon was closed down once again by the qing government. Jeung hung sing and his students fled fut san and headed for hong kong, a safe haven for revolutionaries. It as there that jeung hung sing and chan heung finally reunited after 26 years. Records from both of the fut san and king mui lineages show the two were in hong kong at the same time. They spent the next three years together catching up and evolving the choy lee fut system to the next level.

During the time jeung hung sing and chan heung spent together, chan heung admitted to knowing of jeung hung sing's achievements. In return, jeung hung sing thanked chan heung and admitted if it weren't for his help he would never have made it.

Chan heung was interested in seeing jeung hung sing's progress for himself and asked to see what he learned from the green grass monk. Afterwards, chan heung was interested in including some new techniques from the fut gar system into his choy lee fut. So, they closely worked together as brothers to take choy lee fut to the next stage of its development. Not only did they work on new techniques, they also developed secret call signs such as yik wah and tik. Since chan heung's students and jeung hung sing's students didn't know each other, they used the tiger claw as a secret signal to identify themselves as brothers of choy lee fut.

Many in the choy lee fut fraternity are aware of the use of the tiger claw to identify themeselves. They're equally unaware to why the tiger claw was specifically chosen. The reason behind their choice is the fact that the tiger claw is the secret hand signal used to identify the green grass monk within the secret society.

Jeung hung sing's contributions to the choy lee fut system made him in effect a co-founder as he was responisible for the further development of the system. In 1867, it's believed that an agreement was made that both jeung hung sing and chan heung would return to their respective schools and develop the choy lee fut system separately from one another. After this, chan heung left hong kong for king mui and jeung hung sing returned to fut san to re-open his hung sing kwoon.

First, jeung hung sing was going to have to change the name of his school if he wanted to re-open it or it will just bring on more unwanted attention. Perhaps during their reunion, chan heung suggested he used a different hung character instead of the old one. The fact was, he needed to change the name no matter what. He couldn't afford to keep closing down so he chose a name that was different visually and in definition, but had the same pronunciation.

The one thing he did was keep the sing (victory) in his name as it was connected to the secret society. But the new hung sing literally translated as great wild goose victory. This name was ambiguous and contained no obvious signs of being connected to the hung society, at least to the untrained eye. Little did the government know, jeung hung sing chose this name precisely for its connection to the hung society. The key is knowing what to look for because there is more to the new character than meets the eye.

In 1867 jeung hung sing returned to fut san to re-open his hung sing kwoon. After renaming it using the new character, the qing authorities were satisfied and everything went on as business as usual. The hung sing kwoon was gaining alot of popularity and eventually his fighting system began to eclipse many of the other schools in fut san. Since hung sing kuen (hung sing choy lee fut) was designed for pure combat, it was important that his skills stayed sharp so he accepted all challengers.

In 1883 jeung hung sing learned of a young fighter by the name of chan ngau sing and wanted him to become his student. He sent yuen hai, one of his most senior and loyal of students to go an convince chan ngau sing to join the hung sing kwoon. It wasn't an easy task. Chan ngau sing knew he could fight and since jeung hung sing was considered an older person chan ngau sing felt he could defeat him easily. Jow gum biu, his hung gar sifu felt it was a good idea to train with such a well known master as jeung hung sing and encouraged him to go.

Chan ngau sing eventually agreed to pay a visit to jeung hung sing and see what he had to offer. Upon arriving at the hung sing kwoon chan ngau sing spoke with jeung hung sing for a while before the subject of who would win in a fight. Of course chan ngau sing naturally thought he would win. However, in an attempt to prove it to him prior to the fight, jeung hung sing explained to him that first he would drop him towards the left, then the right and finally down the middle. Once the match started jeung hung sing held up to his word and did exactly what he said he'd do.

After the match with jeung hung sing, chan ngau bowed down and asked to be taken as a student. Without question jeung hung sing accepted and the rest is history. Jeung hung sing really liked chan ngau sing and for the next ten years trained him very hard in hung sing kuen. It was obvious he was being groomed to possibly take over the hung sing kwoon. In return, chan ngau sing remained a loyal disciple until the end.

Even in his old age, jeung hung sing was competing with many challengers. He allegedly never lost a fight until somewhere between the mid 1880's and the mid 1890's, and this was by one stroke, or point. The loss didn't bother jeung hung sing as much as it did chan ngau sing who went and tracked that master down.

The idea of his teacher losing by one point was just too much for chan ngau sing to handle. He challenged the master who beat jeung hung sing and ended up killing him in the match. Then, in 1893 jeung hung sing fell ill at the age of 69 and chan ngau sing tried to take him to see a doctor. Sadly, jeung hung sing passed away leaving behind a wife and two sons who died early on in their own lives.

With tam sam's teacher (lui chun) in guangzhou and master yuen hai (lau bun's teacher) in hong kong, chan ngau sing took over the fut san hung sing kwoon as its first successor. Today, there are hung sing kwoons on virtually every continent around the world.

[Kellen Bassette]

The Southern Shaolin temple was burned down once during the regime of Kangxi Emperor in the Qing Dynasty. The temple was a base for the movement of Ming restoration against the Manchu rulers at that time. Now the Southern Shaolin Temple you see was rebuit later.

I wouldnt believe a Tong Member they atre Chinese Mafia. KC

I'm not jumping on any style bashing bandwagons, I fully believe in "It's the fighter not the system" and anyone with a mastery of fundamentals can be dangerous no matter what they train...

I don't think trying to discredit CLF is a good avenue KC...CLF is nearly 200 years old and based on older arts. They have great form work and a good reputation for producing fighters. It's a classical system, you can't argue against that.

As to ancient origin legends, you're going to find them in any traditional Asian style, Chinese or not...it's some sort of an Asian culture thing...Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Thai, Indonesian...you;ll find tall tales in all of them...I think even a lot of modern Shaolin monks embellish stories from their past, quite a bit...I mean look at Bawang's stories about Wombat Combat...he couldn't have raped half the people he claims to, the math don't add up.

[hskwarrior]

Much of the clf history kwaichang posted came from me n what i've said on this forum in the past.


Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post

The Southern Shaolin temple was burned down once during the regime of Kangxi Emperor in the Qing Dynasty. The temple was a base for the movement of Ming restoration against the Manchu rulers at that time. Now the Southern Shaolin Temple you see was rebuit later.

I wouldnt believe a Tong Member they atre Chinese Mafia. KC

YOU'RE FROM SHAOLIN DO.......DON'T GO WITH WHAT "YOU" KNOW. UNH UNH

WHAT U CALL "CHINESE MAFIA" WAS SOMETHING THAT WENT HAND IN HAND WITH SOUTHERN GUNG FU. U CANNOT SEPERATE THE TWO EVEN IF U TRIED.


As to ancient origin legends, you're going to find them in any traditional Asian style, Chinese or not...it's some sort of an Asian culture thing...Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Thai, Indonesian...you;ll find tall tales in all of them...I think even a lot of modern Shaolin monks embellish stories from their past, quite a bit...I mean look at Bawang's stories about Wombat Combat...he couldn't have raped half the people he claims to, the math don't add up.

SECRECY WAS PARAMOUNT DURING THE QING DYNASTY. IT WAS LITEREALLY A MATTER OF KEEPING YOUR HEAD.

[kwaichang]

I am not cutting any style I found the history interesting and posted it so others could read it. I also posted it as it confirms the existence of the Southern Shaolin Tsu. I am not trying to discredit anything but the statement that the dates do not correspond to what HSK said That is all. I do not believe what the Triad or Mafia say. They would say what benefits them . and because I was in SD does not mean I dont know some things. KC

[Kellen Bassette]

I am not cutting any style I found the history interesting and posted it so others could read it. I also posted it as it confirms the existence of the Southern Shaolin Tsu. I am not trying to discredit anything but the statement that the dates do not correspond to what HSK said That is all. I do not believe what the Triad or Mafia say. They would say what benefits them . and because I was in SD does not mean I dont know some things. KC

My apologies then, I may may have misinterpreted your motives...I do that sometimes. :D

[Syn7]

Yeeeehaaaawww struck a nerve !!! Woooohoooo you are legend in your own mind. You , your lineage and anything and everything you do is a joke . If you were so great you wouldn't be here putting others down. I can bet every SD person here, former or current could easily roll your jelly @$$, you fat fukc! This is about as much attention I can give you... Maybe come so cal @$$wipe and I will show you what being a real martial artist is about , because you obviously need lessons have a great day!:D

Well, you guys are pretty close together. You should fight and stream it to kfm so we can gamble!

I dunno about TTM and have no idea who he is or how good he is. But I know I would not wanna get thumped by an HSK sow choy.


That being said, you both need to just R-E-L-A-X. Being complete *******s to eachother is all good, but don't get mad about it. Composure, gentlemen!

Composure has helped me win many fights. Especially when I am the first to engage. No telegraph, just strike like a snake and watch em crumble...

[hskwarrior]

i am not trying to discredit anything but the statement that the dates do not correspond to what hsk said that is all.

what dates are you comparing my dates to? My dates come from leading researchers on the subject. Even chan heung's records state the shaolin temple burned down in or around 1760.

[hskwarrior]

i dunno about ttm and have no idea who he is or how good he is. But i know i would not wanna get thumped by an hsk sow choy.

if you're referring to seeing that in one of the video's bro, i swear on my mother all i showed was 40% of what i can do. I purposely "not" demonstrate my best for a few reasons. One of them is so people will make the mistake of underestimating me. These hands not only kptfo they can also wake some people up to the truth. :d

[kwaichang]

Note the following article.
a lost Shaolin Temple in Jimei, Fujian, China. The term “lost” with respect to a society or former settlement generally conjures images of archaeological digs, Atlantis, Troy, Hamunaptra, El Dorado, etc. In this case, however, much of the remains were hiding pretty much in plain site, some of them quite well preserved. What has been lost, in this case, is the knowledge and concern of this grand site’s origins and significance, rather than all of the buildings themselves.





Rather than a buried ruin, this site more fits the bill of a reinhabited ghost town. This is evident from the fact that many of these buildings are now occupied, but with little knowledge or appreciation of their importance and historical/cultural value.





The architecture was classic Minnan. There are countless such settlements throughout Southern Fujian. So, were they residences or temples? The answer is, both. Minnan society is deeply rooted in religion, and residences often double as temples, where Buddhist rituals mingled with the Confucian practice of ancestor worship liberally abound. Moreover, some of the buildings served as both domiciles where worship was carried out, while others were dedicated exclusively to community worship.





Jimei, known now for its egregious contributions to Chinese education, and large student population, was indeed previously an edifice of an entirely different sort – a great fortress that housed one of the largest Shaolin monasteries of its day in fact.





Though one wonders how something this seemingly obvious could go unnoticed for long, it is altogether reasonable that history in this case can go forgotten. Firstly, the Shaolin were a secret order, so did not keep records or broadcast their existence to the public. This became even truer when the Manchu of their day outlawed martial arts.



Secondly, it is said that the winners of the wars are the ones who write the history books. Certainly knowledge of the Shaolin, if they ever were discovered, is not something that the Manchu or Qing dynasty would want to disclose. It was a can of worms much better swept under the rug.



Finally, after the fall of the Ming dynasty, as well as after the burning of Shaolin temples on many occasions, many of the Shaolin monks fled China, seeking refuge and asylum in Taiwan, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and elsewhere throughout the far reaches of Asia. This event afforded tremendous mutual influence between the Chinese and Japanese martial arts, as well as Asian marital arts as a whole.





In addition to all this, the Qing dynasty depopulated the entire coastal region in the area, as documented in Dr. Bill Brown’s Fujian Adventure. According to Dr. Brown 50,000 were also executed in Tong An. At the time of this event, what we now refer to as Jimei fell under the jurisdiction of Tong An (The appellation of Jimei never came into being until the 1900’s with regards to this particular peninsular settlement).

[kwaichang]

That these temples were Shaolin is established by the nature of the ornamentation in many of the temple structures. In contrast to the pacifistic symbolism in conventional Buddhist temple decorations, the Shaolin temples include depictions of a more bellicose nature. Examples of this at the temple in Jimei include warriors in Kung Fu poses, armed mounts wielding weapons, and birds (sometimes with mounted warriors) whose position obviously indicate dive-bombing their prey. These birds strongly link to the Shaolin White Crane (Yong Chu, predecessor to Wing Chun) philosophy of emulating this formidable fowl’s aggressive nature in combat. It also includes the presence of weapons within the Temple structures. It seems as if the architecture and artifacts are actually fashioned into a hidden instruction manual whereby the masters can teach the secret art.



There are also reliefs of actual cranes engaged in combat on some of the structures. This further corroborates the link between these temple structures and the Fujian White Crane Shaolin Arts. Which, in turn, confirms that this was indeed a safe haven for the Red Flower Society and Shaolin Ming rebels in the 17th century.

[hskwarrior]

note the following article.
A lost shaolin temple in jimei, fujian, china. The term “lost” with respect to a society or former settlement generally conjures images of archaeological digs, atlantis, troy, hamunaptra, el dorado, etc. In this case, however, much of the remains were hiding pretty much in plain site, some of them quite well preserved. What has been lost, in this case, is the knowledge and concern of this grand site’s origins and significance, rather than all of the buildings themselves.

you need to do a lot more research than that. My lineage was established in 1851 and some of our schools in china from back then were lost. It wasn't until the late 1990's that three of our schools were found by the government.


Firstly, the Shaolin were a secret order, so did not keep records or broadcast their existence to the public.

WHERE DI DU HEAR THAT? LOL


Secondly, it is said that the winners of the wars are the ones who write the history books. Certainly knowledge of the Shaolin, if they ever were discovered, is not something that the Manchu or Qing dynasty would want to disclose. It was a can of worms much better swept under the rug.

THEY'RE DEAD. U CAN'T SPEAK FOR THEM


Which, in turn, confirms that this was indeed a safe haven for the Red Flower Society and Shaolin Ming rebels in the 17th century.

U HAVE NO IDEA HOW DEEP IT GETS

[Syn7]

I'm not jumping on any style bashing bandwagons, I fully believe in "It's the fighter not the system" and anyone with a mastery of fundamentals can be dangerous no matter what they train...

I don't think trying to discredit CLF is a good avenue KC...CLF is nearly 200 years old and based on older arts. They have great form work and a good reputation for producing fighters. It's a classical system, you can't argue against that.

As to ancient origin legends, you're going to find them in any traditional Asian style, Chinese or not...it's some sort of an Asian culture thing...Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Thai, Indonesian...you;ll find tall tales in all of them...I think even a lot of modern Shaolin monks embellish stories from their past, quite a bit...I mean look at Bawang's stories about Wombat Combat...he couldn't have raped half the people he claims to, the math don't add up.

Yeah, the origin stories of Bak Mei are ridiculous. Sensationalistic bull**** that MAY be rooted in SOME truth. MAYBE. That's why I only pay attention to CLC and everything that came after. Most of it is well documented with pictures and reliable testimony.

[Syn7]

I am not cutting any style I found the history interesting and posted it so others could read it. I also posted it as it confirms the existence of the Southern Shaolin Tsu. I am not trying to discredit anything but the statement that the dates do not correspond to what HSK said That is all. I do not believe what the Triad or Mafia say. They would say what benefits them . and because I was in SD does not mean I dont know some things. KC

I don't think KC knows what Triads are or what their roots are.

Another well thought out statement! :rolleyes:

[Kellen Bassette]

Yeah, the origin stories of Bak Mei are ridiculous. Sensationalistic bull**** that MAY be rooted in SOME truth. MAYBE. That's why I only pay attention to CLC and everything that came after. Most of it is well documented with pictures and reliable testimony.

And there's nothing wrong with passing the legend on. It's part of the culture of the art. It probably has as much right to be preserved as some of the forms, so long as you present it to your students as a legend and not as historical fact. The 12 year old kid your teaching that thinks your invincible may not be able to tell the difference.

[Snipsky]

for sure,

you don't want to test hsk on his hung society or his choi lei fut knowledge. i don't always agree with his method of delivery, but he still does know his stuff.

[Syn7]

And there's nothing wrong with passing the legend on. It's part of the culture of the art. It probably has as much right to be preserved as some of the forms, so long as you present it to your students as a legend and not as historical fact. The 12 year old kid your teaching that thinks your invincible may not be able to tell the difference.

Word. Not unlike telling your kids "it's just a movie".

I look at them as tales of adventure and in some cases, lessons. Not very different than any other culture with fantastic tales of old. Like Olympus etc. Real place, but what happened there is just stories for the most part. Fun stories, but just stories. In reality it was more like a bunch of people pushing along and fending off slaughter once in a while.

Shaolin was real, some great things happened there, but there were no monks covered in chains to keep them from floating away. Half a dozen people do not fend off whole armies for a sustained period. But it's a nice thought.

[kwaichang]

Precursors
Main article: Heaven and Earth Society
In the 1760s, the Heaven and Earth Society (天地會), a fraternal organization was founded, and as the society's influence spread throughout China, it branched into several smaller groups with different names, one of which was the Three Harmonies Society (三合會). These societies adopted the triangle as their emblem, usually accompanied by decorative images of swords or portraits of Guan Yu. The term "triad" was first coined by British authorities in colonial Hong Kong, as a reference to the triads' use of triangular imagery.[1] While never proven, it is "highly probable" that triad organizations either took after or were originally part of the revolutionary movement called the White Lotus Society,[2] and quite possibly, The Boxers.

Migration to Hong Kong
When the Chinese Communist Party came to power in 1949 in mainland China, law enforcement became stricter and tough governmental crackdown on criminal organizations forced the triads to migrate to Hong Kong, then a British colony.[citation needed] It was estimated that in the 1950s, there were about 300,000 triad members in Hong Kong.[3] Academics at the University of Hong Kong say that most triad societies were established between 1914 and 1939, and that there were once more than 300 in the territory. Since then the number of such groups has consolidated to around 50, of which 14 are still regularly in the eye of police.[4] By 1951, there were nine main triads operating in Hong Kong and they had divided the land according to their ethnic groups and geographical locations, with each triad in charge of a region. The nine triads were Wo Hop To, Wo Shing Wo, Rung, Tung, Chuen, Shing, Sun Yee On, 14K and Luen. Each of them had their own headquarters, sub-societies and public fronts. After the 1956 riots, the Hong Kong government introduced stricter law enforcement and the triads became less active.

Scope of activities
Triads currently engage in a variety of crimes from extortion and money laundering to trafficking and prostitution. They also are involved in smuggling and counterfeiting goods such as music, video, and software as well as more tangible goods such as clothes, watches, and money.[5]

Triads have been engaging in counterfeiting since the 1880s. Between the 1960s and 1970s, triads were involved in counterfeiting Chinese currency, often of the Hong Kong 50-cent piece. In the same decade, the gangs were also involved in copying books, usually expensive ones, and selling them in the black market. With the advent of new technology and the improvement of the average person's standard of living, triads have progressed to producing counterfeit goods such as watches, film VCDs / DVDs and designer apparel such as clothing and handbags.[6] Since the 1970s, triad turf control was weakened and some triads shifted their revenue streams to underground as well as legitimate businesses.[4]

[hskwarrior]

yeah thats outter stuff. there's alot of inner stuff you need to know.

i will say this.....the founder of the (三合會) was also the teacher to the founder of hung sing choy lee fut 鴻勝蔡李佛.

[Shaolindynasty]

Actually to be fair some of the stuff presented in this video isnt horrible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU
I've seen students of "legit" sifus do worse. the techniques presented by the intstructor can be workable if given a proper training format and the techniques were streamlined a little with some of the fancier or less efficient techniques removed. at the very least they are working to apply their techniques. These guys may be the exception in shaolin do but they seem like an average school that I would be judging at a chicago tourny.



as for sharing videos

this is a training montage from last sept. at the school i train at
http://youtu.be/syxf4EEAIGE
This was shot during the course of actual classes so the training here is typical and not embellished for the camera

and this is my school youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/k3hungsing

you shouldnt be ashamed to show your skills especially in the context of online debates. It's really the only way anyone is going to respect your opinon

[Orion Paximus]

I purposely "not" demonstrate my best for a few reasons. One of them is so people will make the mistake of underestimating me. These hands not only kptfo they can also wake some people up to the truth. :d

You know who else used to make posts like this? Ashida Kim.

[hskwarrior]

You know who else used to make posts like this? Ashida Kim.

uhhhhhh ok sure. wutever. LOL you know who replies like you did? people who want to be like Ashida Kim. thanks for sharing. :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

I am at a loss why people are still engaging you, hskwarrior. Maybe, they like watching temper tantrums of someone who hasn't managed any self mastery. You can't formulate a sentence without sounding like a thug; you don't even attempt to spell correctly. Your arguments are on par with middle school students I have taught in the past. (When I taught in the public schools, not at my martial arts school. Your attitude would not be allowed in my school.) You look like an overgrown walrus flailing your arms about and then claim you are holding back. You expect people to spend hundreds of dollars to fly to you so you can demonstrate your "superior skill" on them. You keep crying that material your school has taught out in books and videos was stolen. And to beat it all you try to bully your way around on here being the legend in your own mind that you are when most people, including SD detractors, think you are a joke.

Awaiting your inevitable response that will prove my point and be promptly ignored.

[hskwarrior]

I am at a loss why people are still engaging you, hskwarrior.

stfu. no one is talking to you.


you don't even attempt to spell correctly.

ye yer shure rite bout that'er one. yee haw


You keep crying that material your school has taught out in books and videos was stolen. And to beat it all you try to bully your way around on here being the legend in your own mind that you are when most people, including SD detractors, think you are a joke.

awwww....feew bedda nahw?


Your attitude would not be allowed in my school

uhhhhh....me be a shalolin do student? nah...i'm cool. i'm not into joining cults. (thank god)

and that flailing arms part, we call that the iron octopus. we also shoot black die in the faces of our opponents to make our getaway.

(themeecer: do you really have a form called the iron octopus? HSK: no you dumb ass thats why you're Shaolin Do and I'm Hung Sing. LOL)

[hskwarrior]

Synny Syn Syn...........

Silver Back Gorilla. you try yet????????

my reaction.....OMG

[tattooedmonk]

Haha you are part of a cult...and a blind follower at that. You have to be the most ridiculous person on these forums. What a turd burglar.

[tattooedmonk]

I am at a loss why people are still engaging you, hskwarrior. Maybe, they like watching temper tantrums of someone who hasn't managed any self mastery. You can't formulate a sentence without sounding like a thug; you don't even attempt to spell correctly. Your arguments are on par with middle school students I have taught in the past. (When I taught in the public schools, not at my martial arts school. Your attitude would not be allowed in my school.) You look like an overgrown walrus flailing your arms about and then claim you are holding back. You expect people to spend hundreds of dollars to fly to you so you can demonstrate your "superior skill" on them. You keep crying that material your school has taught out in books and videos was stolen. And to beat it all you try to bully your way around on here being the legend in your own mind that you are when most people, including SD detractors, think you are a joke.

Awaiting your inevitable response that will prove my point and be promptly ignored.
You have to admit it is mildly entertaining:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

if you're referring to seeing that in one of the video's bro, i swear on my mother all i showed was 40% of what i can do. I purposely "not" demonstrate my best for a few reasons. One of them is so people will make the mistake of underestimating me. These hands not only kptfo they can also wake some people up to the truth. :d
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah:eek::D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/481487_10151194025822732_2017152416_n.jpg

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[tattooedmonk]

yeah thats outter stuff. there's alot of inner stuff you need to know.

i will say this.....the founder of the (三合會) was also the teacher to the founder of hung sing choy lee fut 鴻勝蔡李佛.

OMFG are you serious!? You have just proven your self to be the biggest idiot here in this forum.....congrats!:D

[hskwarrior]

Tattooed Vagina boy,

what happened to your Imperical Evidence of the form your SENSEI stole out of Doc Fai's book?

Just like Sin The, you too are full of sh1t. LOL.

all talk. no action. LOL

[tattooedmonk]

You awful as usual frank!

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed Vagina boy,

what happened to your Imperical Evidence of the form your SENSEI stole out of Doc Fai's book?

Just like Sin The, you too are full of sh1t. LOL.

all talk. no action. LOLI have the evidence that you are full of ****....going to give it out around Christmas as a gift!:D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

OMFG are you serious!? You have just proven your self to be the biggest idiot here in this forum.....congrats!

Really? hahahah do you really wanna go there?

so, enlighten me. i bet you can't even tell me anything basic about this subject. fool.

come on girly man. what do you have to speak about? LOLOL

i can't wait to see your ignorance. come on, i can't wait to b1tch slap you with knowledge. hurry the fuk up and bring your pocket protector.

[hskwarrior]

Tattooed punk,

hurry up and tell me what you think you know about the triad, aka hung mun.

Don't worry bout it, all you're gonna do is cut and paste something you found on wikileaks. Lmao.

You don't wanna test me on what i know about the triad.

[tattooedmonk]

I could tell you many things on various subjects. You just can't be civilized , mature or sane long enough to have a real conversations with.

Question... Do you use conventional cleaning products?.....I asking because it has been proven that sodium laurel sulfate , sodium laureth sulfate , etc that is used in cleaning products can lead to neurological and mental dis orders including but not limited to being a dumb@$$....

How about products that off gas ...? Maybe these are your real problems....including your diet and lifestyle.:eek::):D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

I could tell you many things on various subjects. You just can't be civilized , mature or sane long enough to have a real conversations with.

U SHUD CHAINGE UR NAIME TO SIN THE! LIAR LOLOLOL

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/loser.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooed punk,

hurry up and tell me what you think you know about the triad, aka hung mun.

Don't worry bout it, all you're gonna do is cut and paste something you found on wikileaks. Lmao.

You don't wanna test me on what i know about the triad.Listen here little man( I use that term loosely) just give it a rest already. Everyone is done with your temper tantrums, childishness and bragging . It's old.

I would like to talk to others about SD ....that's why am here. I attempted to talk to you about other forms and subjects yet all you could do is be an @$$.

Whatever.


Just go away.... Wait I have a better idea......

[hskwarrior]

http://www.marriage-wise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/loser.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

Exactly.... Just keep doing all the work yourself.... No one else has to prove you are a moron.:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

http://www.hatersarelosers.com/loser.png

THE FUNNIEST PART OF IT ALL IS, I'VE RIGHTFULLY ATTACHED YOU *****ES FOR BOOSTING MY LINEAGES FORM FROM DOC FAI WONG'S BOOK. 2NDLY, I SWEATED YOU GUYS FOR WEARING KARATE GI'S AND HAVING POOR ABILITIES.

YOU PUNK *****ES ARE THE FIRST TO START THROWING PERSONAL INSULTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO STAND ON. FOR EXAMPLE, I NEVER INSULTED MEECER FOR HOW HE LOOKS. I KEPT IT STRICTLY GUNG FU.

NOW YOU PUNK *****ES COMPLAIN LIKE A BUNCH OF PUNK *****ES. TO BE HONEST I PERSONALLY AVOIDED THIS THREAD SINCE IT WAS FIRST CREATED BECAUSE I KNEW YOU GUYS WERE WANNABE'S. I WISH I WOULD'VE NEVER FOUND JAKE THE FAKE *****'S VIDEO OF OUR FORM BECAUSE I'D NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU. LOL.

MOST OF YOU ARE JUST FAKE JAKES ANYWAY.

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.hatersarelosers.com/loser.png

Do you know why this is so hilarious and proves the point.!?:D:eek::cool:

[hskwarrior]

FOR YOU BUSTA

http://global3.memecdn.com/haha-loser_o_682549.jpg

http://www.avoiceformen.com/portal/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Loser.jpg

[brucereiter]

Actually to be fair some of the stuff presented in this video isnt horrible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU
I've seen students of "legit" sifus do worse. the techniques presented by the intstructor can be workable if given a proper training format and the techniques were streamlined a little with some of the fancier or less efficient techniques removed. at the very least they are working to apply their techniques. These guys may be the exception in shaolin do but they seem like an average school that I would be judging at a chicago tourny.



as for sharing videos

this is a training montage from last sept. at the school i train at
http://youtu.be/syxf4EEAIGE
This was shot during the course of actual classes so the training here is typical and not embellished for the camera

and this is my school youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/k3hungsing

you shouldnt be ashamed to show your skills especially in the context of online debates. It's really the only way anyone is going to respect your opinon

The sd school is the video you linked is run by mike reid. He is a excellent teacher who has put in a lot of research and practice. He invited tim nance who is he person teaching in the video. I think he has a lot to offer. Very skilled.

Thanks for sharing your training video from your school. Some good stuff...

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.hatersarelosers.com/loser.png

THE FUNNIEST PART OF IT ALL IS, I'VE RIGHTFULLY ATTACHED YOU *****ES FOR BOOSTING MY LINEAGES FORM FROM DOC FAI WONG'S BOOK. 2NDLY, I SWEATED YOU GUYS FOR WEARING KARATE GI'S AND HAVING POOR ABILITIES.

YOU PUNK *****ES ARE THE FIRST TO START THROWING PERSONAL INSULTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO STAND ON. FOR EXAMPLE, I NEVER INSULTED MEECER FOR HOW HE LOOKS. I KEPT IT STRICTLY GUNG FU.

NOW YOU PUNK *****ES COMPLAIN LIKE A BUNCH OF PUNK *****ES. TO BE HONEST I PERSONALLY AVOIDED THIS THREAD SINCE IT WAS FIRST CREATED BECAUSE I KNEW YOU GUYS WERE WANNABE'S. I WISH I WOULD'VE NEVER FOUND JAKE THE FAKE *****'S VIDEO OF OUR FORM BECAUSE I'D NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU. LOL.

MOST OF YOU ARE JUST FAKE JAKES ANYWAY.
Someone call the wwwaaambulance!?

[Syn7]

Synny Syn Syn...........

Silver Back Gorilla. you try yet????????

my reaction.....OMG

Naw, I'm workin on some PK for now!

[hskwarrior]

Just go away.... Wait I have a better idea......

AWWWWWWE PO BABIE GOT HIS WITTLE FEEWINGS HURT.


Someone call the wwwaaambulance!?

RIGHT?! U REALLY NEED ONE BAD!

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/robeo/robeo1105/robeo110500040/9587558-a-woman-making-the-loser-sign-with-her-hand.jpg

[hskwarrior]

naw, i'm workin on some pk for now!

you get cat **** out there?

Found a spot much better on my wallet but the quality is out of this world.

[Judge Pen]

The sd school is the video you linked is run by mike reid. He is a excellent teacher who has put in a lot of research and practice. He invited tim nance who is he person teaching in the video. I think he has a lot to offer. Very skilled.

Thanks for sharing your training video from your school. Some good stuff...

Too bad these discussions get lost in the white noise.

[themeecer]

Too bad these discussions get lost in the white noise.

Ain't that the truth. I hated that the Mullin's forum shut down. We need a forum where SD brothers and past brothers can discuss training techniques and other SD related topics, without so many distractions. I wouldn't necessarily want it exclusive to SD posters, though. I still want to hear what my other martial arts brothers have to say because there is a lot that can be learned from them. Oh well .. wait another year and there will be a whole new set of trolls.

[brucereiter]

Too bad these discussions get lost in the white noise.
Yep it is too bad. I have tried to talk about and share a lot of information on this thread. Each time I do it seems to be ignored for the lovely ad hominium attacks that fly back and fourth between a few of the active posters.

[tattooedmonk]

Ain't that the truth. I hated that the Mullin's forum shut down. We need a forum where SD brothers and past brothers can discuss training techniques and other SD related topics, without so many distractions. I wouldn't necessarily want it exclusive to SD posters, though. I still want to hear what my other martial arts brothers have to say because there is a lot that can be learned from them. Oh well .. wait another year and there will be a whole new set of trolls.

Funny you should bring this up....I am starting a forum for all things shaolin...anyone interested? My webmaster has built me a really nice martial arts website...so I asked if we could attach a forum to it .....at the first of the year I will let you guys know about it. It will be exclusive and all members will have to be approved first to avoid all this crap....with low to zero tolerance in place for all rules and courtesies. You all can pm me about this too.:D

[brucereiter]

As many of you here know I practice the internal sd stuff as taught in atl... Most of it has zero verifiable connection to Shaolin but there is one thing in the internal program that did and this is I chin Ching. I have researched many variation of I chin Ching (yi Jin jing) some have a 100 or more postures and other systems of it has 10 or 20 postures.

The sd version has 49 postures.
It is a variation of yoga and shares many common asanas to yoga that you have probably sceen. Of coarse I do not have any faith in the story sin the gives about this 49 posture system of I chin Ching but the fact is it exists and I learned it or at least a variation of it along with tai chi CHUAN and I have found it to be a great asset in building certain attributes in strength and flexibility etc that have been very helpful to my tai chi CHUAN practice. My teacher chose to teach It along side tai chi CHUAN as part of his curriculum.

Sin the claims to have had to "master" I chin Ching before learning other arts.
I would like to know more about the history and practice of ie chin Ching.
I do not think that sin the made this up. I also do not think that this Ie chin Ching was passed down by a hairy monk... But I do think I must have been learned somewhere and therefore practiced by someone else too.

What are your thoughts.

[Shaolindynasty]

Actually to be fair some of the stuff presented in this video isnt horrible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU
I've seen students of "legit" sifus do worse. the techniques presented by the intstructor can be workable if given a proper training format and the techniques were streamlined a little with some of the fancier or less efficient techniques removed. at the very least they are working to apply their techniques. These guys may be the exception in shaolin do but they seem like an average school that I would be judging at a chicago tourny.



I have a questions about the techniques presented in this video and how they realate to the overall practice of shaolin do. What are the main stragies employed by SD? the reason I ask is because each of the arts it has "borrowed" from have their own unique structure designed to employ a specific combative strategy. How does SD attempt to combine these and what exactly are the overall principles of the system?

[brucereiter]

Agenda/reason for posting on this thread.

Before typing something on this thread why not ask your self if the comment will be of value? If it is not of value and giving benefit to others then why say it.

I want to correct misinformation where I can, I want to lean more about the martial arts I practice and I want to learn as much about th history and methods o the material I choose to still practice that I learn while I was actively involved with sd.

Try to take the middle road. This goes to the lovers and haters of sd. Often times your extreme view of things will be blurred by lack of information and blanket statements will simply be inaccurate and cause you to sound uninformed.

Sin the has been "outed". Unless you are not able to accept reality this must be accepted, sin the lied about many parts of his martial arts history calling all of it into question. Unless he gave me a compelling reason I would not want to have any future involvement with him but this does not mean that I don't or should no value some of the things I learned as a result of sin the's actions.

If you like It or not some people who learned under that system are great people and very skilled martial artists. They should be judged solely on their actions and the content of their character and not be judged on sin the's bull****.

[brucereiter]

I have a questions about the techniques presented in this video and how they realate to the overall practice of shaolin do. What are the main stragies employed by SD? the reason I ask is because each of the arts it has "borrowed" from have their own unique structure designed to employ a specific combative strategy. How does SD attempt to combine these and what exactly are the overall principles of the system?

I think wookie was actually at that class so he might speak specifically about what was shown in that video.

I can only speak about the internal stuff since that is what I studied...
That is a great question ...

On a basic level l think most sd students do not get taught to seperate the specific strategies of each art and tend to blur the arts together.

There are many exceptions though and these exceptions are students who question, test and practice their material. There are also a few teachers in the system who encourage this.

I know one thing that has affected me even with things I did not Learn well it gave me at least a idea or a familiarity with the way people can move, a kind of exposer to possibilities if hat makes sense.

Long story short is I think "sd" intends to make you familiar with many things and for most you will only be god at a few but at least you have exposer and familiarity with a broad range of styles.

[Syn7]

If you guys want to have a good discussion on SD you may want your first move to be posting in a thread whose name doesn't insinuate that your style is questionable.

I'm sure people will troll you anyways, but it will be less. I for one couldn't be bothered to follow any of you around for any reason. Honestly, I don't care about SD or it's legitimacy. I just like to pick a side and argue it as best I can. ****, maybe next time I'll even take up your cause, just 'cause.

Just make an SD discussion thread and ignore all challenges. Simple, no? Your posts only get buried because you people make the choice to engage others. That's on you guys. We've all pretty much explained our intentions and reasons for being here. Time for you guys to get over it. We don't respect SD and we question any and all of it because of the sheer amount of bull**** surrounding your GM. Nothing unique or unfair about it. Just go look up the Doo Wai threads. Sin The isn't being singled out or anything. You guys just needed to widen your perspective. Clean that sand out the vijayjay and re-engage or move on. But quit ****ing crying about it.

Refer to the quote attributed to my name in Scott Browns sig. :rolleyes: Seriously, you guys sound like a bunch of whiney lil *****es. Get over it already.

[Syn7]

and for the record, I would consider allowing yourself to be lied to because you want to believe, shows a lack of character. Teaching material you know is false(FOR ANY REASON) shows a lack of character. Not admitting simple truths to yourself shows a lack of character.

For you older guys, don't lie. You saw Bruce Lee movies and Kung Fu TV show and were delighted to find Sin The. So delighted that he passed a ridiculous lie over to you and you chose to accept it. A lie that was very easy to confirm. Granted, the net makes it easier, but there is a ton of material from the 70's and sooner in print that cast serious doubt on anything your teacher said. Not only that, but he stole from published materials that NONE OF YOU even bothered to look for because you had faith. That's on you. Don't get mad that people will consider you ridiculous. You did that! HSK didn't do that, wenshu didn't do that. YOU DID THAT!


You can call me a dickhead all you want. But I am more in control of my own world than anyone duped by Sin The. Anyone duped by anyone, for that matter.

[bodhi warrior]

As many of you here know I practice the internal sd stuff as taught in atl... Most of it has zero verifiable connection to Shaolin but there is one thing in the internal program that did and this is I chin Ching. I have researched many variation of I chin Ching (yi Jin jing) some have a 100 or more postures and other systems of it has 10 or 20 postures.

The sd version has 49 postures.
It is a variation of yoga and shares many common asanas to yoga that you have probably sceen. Of coarse I do not have any faith in the story sin the gives about this 49 posture system of I chin Ching but the fact is it exists and I learned it or at least a variation of it along with tai chi CHUAN and I have found it to be a great asset in building certain attributes in strength and flexibility etc that have been very helpful to my tai chi CHUAN practice. My teacher chose to teach It along side tai chi CHUAN as part of his curriculum.

Sin the claims to have had to "master" I chin Ching before learning other arts.
I would like to know more about the history and practice of ie chin Ching.
I do not think that sin the made this up. I also do not think that this Ie chin Ching was passed down by a hairy monk... But I do think I must have been learned somewhere and therefore practiced by someone else too.

What are your thoughts.

I don't know much about the history. But if someone can do all 49 postures 49 times each, they'd be super man. I mean its tough!

[Leto]

As many of you here know I practice the internal sd stuff as taught in atl... Most of it has zero verifiable connection to Shaolin but there is one thing in the internal program that did and this is I chin Ching. I have researched many variation of I chin Ching (yi Jin jing) some have a 100 or more postures and other systems of it has 10 or 20 postures.

The sd version has 49 postures.
It is a variation of yoga and shares many common asanas to yoga that you have probably sceen. Of coarse I do not have any faith in the story sin the gives about this 49 posture system of I chin Ching but the fact is it exists and I learned it or at least a variation of it along with tai chi CHUAN and I have found it to be a great asset in building certain attributes in strength and flexibility etc that have been very helpful to my tai chi CHUAN practice. My teacher chose to teach It along side tai chi CHUAN as part of his curriculum.

Sin the claims to have had to "master" I chin Ching before learning other arts.
I would like to know more about the history and practice of ie chin Ching.
I do not think that sin the made this up. I also do not think that this Ie chin Ching was passed down by a hairy monk... But I do think I must have been learned somewhere and therefore practiced by someone else too.

What are your thoughts.

Do you mean the history of specifically the 49 posture I chin ching, or of I chin ching in general? The most commonly known I chin ching is 12 postures. The standardized version in China today is practiced quite differently from the SD 49 posture version. There are a couple of similar postures, but mostly it is widely different. The SD version has much more difficult and demanding exercises. The modern standard version has intermediate movements which let the postures flow from one to the next, it is practiced continuously. The I Chin Ching is first seen in a document from the 1600's which describes the twelve postures, and has pictures. There is a short section mentioning it in Meier Shahar's "The Shaolin Monastery" book. There is not a lot of commonality. SD's number four posture that is performed like "crushing a boulder" is most similar to the traditional version's first posture of wei tuo presents the staff (or however you want to translate it). Number five "laughing buddha" in SD is closest to the third traditional posture in appearance (which is also a part of wei tuo presenting something), but it has different emphasis. The second traditional posture (yet another part of wei tuo presenting), is arms outstretched to the sides with palms out, like SD's number three. So SD has analogues of the first three traditional postures one after the other, with the first two in different order (and without the transitional movements allowing the flow between them). SD's number eight with arms stretched out in front is a similar ending posture to the traditional sixth posture, but it is emphasized differently, it isn't exactly the same. SD's nineteen and twenty look like variations of a transitional movement seen in the traditional seventh posture, "nine ghosts drawing swords". SD's number seven, bending forward and pressing the palms down to he ground, is similar to a transitional part of the twelfth traditional posture "swinging the tail", where you are also bent forward with palms pressing down. Another similarity is use of dynamic tension. I feel like the fact that many of SD's I chin ching postures are similar to yoga postures indicates that that is probably what they are. Other of the 49 which aren't directly from yoga I suspect are just good exercises/stretches that the designer wanted to train. Overall, it is much more of a workout than the traditional version. But I don't see much evidence that it came from learning and adapting the original yi jin jing, it is practiced so differently. It isn't even as though the traditional version is a subset of the SD version, since SD doesn't include most of the traditional postures, and doesn't have the transitional movements linking them.
I call the SD version "Indonesian Yi Jin Jing" to differentiate it from the traditional yi jin jing.

[OldandUsed]

@tattoomonk....re the forum. Yes, I am in.

[brucereiter]

Hi Leto,

I am asking more about the 49 posture ie chin Ching. It is one of the things I kept after I left the system. I find it to be very valuable.

Interesting comparisons, Thank you for the information.

[brucereiter]

I don't know much about the history. But if someone can do all 49 postures 49 times each, they'd be super man. I mean its tough!

Yes indeed.

I still can not do all 49 postures correctly let alone 49 times lol!

[brucereiter]

If you guys want to have a good discussion on SD you may want your first move to be posting in a thread whose name doesn't insinuate that your style is questionable.

I'm sure people will troll you anyways, but it will be less. I for one couldn't be bothered to follow any of you around for any reason. Honestly, I don't care about SD or it's legitimacy. I just like to pick a side and argue it as best I can. ****, maybe next time I'll even take up your cause, just 'cause.

Just make an SD discussion thread and ignore all challenges. Simple, no? Your posts only get buried because you people make the choice to engage others. That's on you guys. We've all pretty much explained our intentions and reasons for being here. Time for you guys to get over it. We don't respect SD and we question any and all of it because of the sheer amount of bull**** surrounding your GM. Nothing unique or unfair about it. Just go look up the Doo Wai threads. Sin The isn't being singled out or anything. You guys just needed to widen your perspective. Clean that sand out the vijayjay and re-engage or move on. But quit ****ing crying about it.

Refer to the quote attributed to my name in Scott Browns sig. :rolleyes: Seriously, you guys sound like a bunch of whiney lil *****es. Get over it already.

I think it makes sense to discuss the good, bad and ugly about sd right here on this thread.

[brucereiter]

and for the record, I would consider allowing yourself to be lied to because you want to believe, shows a lack of character. Teaching material you know is false(FOR ANY REASON) shows a lack of character. Not admitting simple truths to yourself shows a lack of character.

Who are you addressing?




For you older guys, don't lie. You saw Bruce Lee movies and Kung Fu TV show and were delighted to find Sin The. So delighted that he passed a ridiculous lie over to you and you chose to accept it. A lie that was very easy to confirm. Granted, the net makes it easier, but there is a ton of material from the 70's and sooner in print that cast serious doubt on anything your teacher said.


On the internal side of things taught in sd the Cheng man Ching book and the jiang rong qiao books were available in the 1970's but I would not say it was easy to find information about cma during the 60's and 70's and even the 80's specifically if you are not in a major city. Starting in the mid 90's some info was available on the net and that has progressed to what you see now. Now you can't hide:-)




Not only that, but he stole from published materials that NONE OF YOU even bothered to look for because you had faith. That's on you. Don't get mad that people will consider you ridiculous. You did that! HSK didn't do that, wenshu didn't do that. YOU DID THAT!

Blanket statements are often inaccurate. You say "none". What do you base that on.

I suppose you are referring to the 5 animal form.

I have enjoyed seeing the different variations of the 5 animal form as a result of this thread though.

I too wish people did not have blind faith.



You can call me a dickhead all you want. But I am more in control of my own world than anyone duped by Sin The. Anyone duped by anyone, for that matter.

The feeling of being in control is nice. I am glad you have confidence.
You really are not in control though. Things are what they are. Accept it and learn from it.

[Old Noob]

If you guys want to have a good discussion on SD you may want your first move to be posting in a thread whose name doesn't insinuate that your style is questionable.

I'm sure people will troll you anyways, but it will be less. I for one couldn't be bothered to follow any of you around for any reason. Honestly, I don't care about SD or it's legitimacy. I just like to pick a side and argue it as best I can. ****, maybe next time I'll even take up your cause, just 'cause.

Just make an SD discussion thread and ignore all challenges. Simple, no? Your posts only get buried because you people make the choice to engage others. That's on you guys. We've all pretty much explained our intentions and reasons for being here. Time for you guys to get over it. We don't respect SD and we question any and all of it because of the sheer amount of bull**** surrounding your GM. Nothing unique or unfair about it. Just go look up the Doo Wai threads. Sin The isn't being singled out or anything. You guys just needed to widen your perspective. Clean that sand out the vijayjay and re-engage or move on. But quit ****ing crying about it.

Refer to the quote attributed to my name in Scott Browns sig. :rolleyes: Seriously, you guys sound like a bunch of whiney lil *****es. Get over it already.

New SD threads tend to get merged into this one. Gene likes to keep all things SD in one place.

[Empty_Cup]

Linked an article on I Chin Ching from 1989 Kung Fu magazine. It's filled with the kind of language that some might consider "SD rhetoric" but could be a good read for those interested. To be transparent, the author is/was a SD practitioner as I'm aware.

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/ichinchingikfsept89.pdf

[sean_stonehart]

Well... it is SD. It's the guy that wrote the book for SKT.

[Snipsky]

hi,

I have question for you. HSK said "yeah thats outter stuff. there's alot of inner stuff you need to know. i will say this.....the founder of the (三合會) was also the teacher to the founder of hung sing choy lee fut 鴻勝蔡李佛"

Your reply was the following: OMFG are you serious!? You have just proven your self to be the biggest idiot here in this forum.....congrats!

so, if i may ask why did you response this way? is because you don't know? HSK has been doing many research for his school and knows a ton of thing on the subject of the triads and Choi Lei Fut. i don't believe you can touch him on this one. i don't think you know it, he is Hung Mun real member.

[bodhi warrior]

In my opinion, shaolin do's I chin Ching resembles more traditional shaolin's tong zi gong. While not identicle they are very similar.

[hskwarrior]

so, if i may ask why did you response this way?

it doesn't matter bruh. that guy is one of the most ass hurt people i've come across on this forum. he's got nothin to do with nothin. don't mind him.

[Empty_Cup]

In my opinion, shaolin do's I chin Ching resembles more traditional shaolin's tong zi gong. While not identicle they are very similar.

I'll have to check out tong zi gong.

It's clear to me that the intent of the SD i chin ching is to build strength through isometric exercises. Combine this with the breathing and I think this is a very nice set.

@ Leto or others: Is the "traditional" 12-posture i chin ching done with dynamic or other tension? What is the underlying training objective/intent of the set?

[tattooedmonk]

it doesn't matter bruh. that guy is one of the most ass hurt people i've come across on this forum. he's got nothin to do with nothin. don't mind him.

Actually that title goes to you!:D I could NOT care less at this point.

[tattooedmonk]

hi,

I have question for you. HSK said "yeah thats outter stuff. there's alot of inner stuff you need to know. i will say this.....the founder of the (三合會) was also the teacher to the founder of hung sing choy lee fut 鴻勝蔡李佛"

Your reply was the following: OMFG are you serious!? You have just proven your self to be the biggest idiot here in this forum.....congrats!

so, if i may ask why did you response this way? is because you don't know? HSK has been doing many research for his school and knows a ton of thing on the subject of the triads and Choi Lei Fut. i don't believe you can touch him on this one. i don't think you know it, he is Hung Mun real member.because he is bragging , anyone that has those connections doesn't need / should nt say anything about it. He is trying too hard in my opinion.
I don't care if he is a hung men... I love women!:p

[Snipsky]

because he is bragging , anyone that has those connections doesn't need / should nt say anything about it. He is trying too hard in my opinion.
I don't care if he is a hung men... I love women!

please be serious for a time. i can see he is proud of his family of CLF. he has done many things for CLF. very good with history. although, i see you and themeecer saying bad things about him. if i was him i would be angry too. honestly, you don't know if he can hurt you so why talk like this?

i respect him because he was never afraid to tell the world his name, teacher and school. many of you people here hide behind the computer. what i am saying is you should show more respect here. you act like a child. please, don't turn your angry to me. i don't want it. thx

[tattooedmonk]

please be serious for a time. i can see he is proud of his family of CLF. he has done many things for CLF. very good with history. although, i see you and themeecer saying bad things about him. if i was him i would be angry too. honestly, you don't know if he can hurt you so why talk like this?

i respect him because he was never afraid to tell the world his name, teacher and school. many of you people here hide behind the computer. what i am saying is you should show more respect here. you act like a child. please, don't turn your angry to me. i don't want it. thx I am serious when I need to be. Being rpoud is an understatement. There is a difference. Obviously you are one of his nut riders and fail to see his faults or the fact that he is attacking not only the whole thread but each individual person for no apparant reason. He is a child and a disgrace to all martial arts and his lineage. I have shown plenty if respect and courtesy but I have had enough. You are obviously too ignorant to see the complete picture. Mind you own business.

[tattooedmonk]

please be serious for a time. i can see he is proud of his family of CLF. he has done many things for CLF. very good with history. although, i see you and themeecer saying bad things about him. if i was him i would be angry too. honestly, you don't know if he can hurt you so why talk like this?

i respect him because he was never afraid to tell the world his name, teacher and school. many of you people here hide behind the computer. what i am saying is you should show more respect here. you act like a child. please, don't turn your angry to me. i don't want it. thx I am serious when I need to be. Being proud is an understatement. There is a difference. Obviously you are one of his nut riders and fail to see his faults or the fact that he is attacking not only the whole thread but each individual person for no apparant reason. He is a child and a disgrace to all martial arts and his lineage. I have shown plenty of respect and courtesy , it appears you all dont like it when the shoe is on the other foot!? I have had enough. You are obviously too ignorant to see the complete picture. Mind you own business.

[hskwarrior]

I am serious when I need to be. Being rpoud is an understatement. There is a difference. Obviously you are one of his nut riders and fail to see his faults or the fact that he is attacking not only the whole thread but each individual person for no apparant reason. He is a child and a disgrace to all martial arts and his lineage. I have shown plenty if respect and courtesy but I have had enough. You are obviously too ignorant to see the complete picture. Mind you own business.

just like everything else that came out of your mouth....you keep telling more lies. IMO, you are a disgrace to your parents. they need to be slapped for having someone as dumb as you. look, snipsky was talking to you respectfully and you show him disrespect in return. only ***** made haters like yourself act the way you do. i had fun pokin at you b1tches, especially you. so tough behind the computer. say what you want cause you know your anonymity will protect you. but you don't know who i know or who may come knocking on your door in my honor. lock your doors dude.

[tattooedmonk]

just like everything else that came out of your mouth....you keep telling more lies. IMO, you are a disgrace to your parents. they need to be slapped for having someone as dumb as you. look, snipsky was talking to you respectfully and you show him disrespect in return. only ***** made haters like yourself act the way you do. i had fun pokin at you b1tches, especially you. so tough behind the computer. say what you want cause you know your anonymity will protect you. but you don't know who i know or who may come knocking on your door in my honor. lock your doors dude.This post shows your complete disconnect from reality. You have no idea with whom you are talking to and never thought to ask. I would have been more than happy to answer any questions about the arts , my self and a few other things...but you just had to be a total @$$ wipe the whole time.

Here's is my site....www.thewayofshaolin.com It's almost finished. judge , criticize and belittle all you want....enjoy!

I don't have anything to hide.:eek::D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

http://img.getglue.com/topics/p/stfu/normal.jpg

[themeecer]

although, i see you and themeecer saying bad things about him. if i was him i would be angry too. honestly, you don't know if he can hurt you so why talk like this?

i respect him because he was never afraid to tell the world his name, teacher and school. many of you people here hide behind the computer. what i am saying is you should show more respect here. you act like a child. please, don't turn your angry to me. i don't want it. thx

Snipsky, you must be late to the game and missed the part where hskwarrior continually berated the wishes of a grieving widow at her husband's funeral. He continually did that even though the deceased's student was treating him with the patience of Job. That is what had my hackles up.

Most if not all the SD guys on here have been free with their names and locations.

Show more respect?!?! Holy freaking crap! You must be joking. Are you blind to the lack of respect given to us by hskwarrior and many others on here? I could go on a month rampage slapping old women and orphans and never reach the level of disrespect shown by our detractors on here.

[hskwarrior]

Show more respect?!?! Holy freaking crap! You must be joking. Are you blind to the lack of respect given to us by hskwarrior and many others on here? I could go on a month rampage slapping old women and orphans and never reach the level of disrespect shown by our detractors on here.

shaolin do = gung fu learned from books and video's.

its no one else's fault but SHAOLIN DO for pretending to be authentic shaolin. LMAO.

your schools should pay homage to all of the lineages your school has ripped off from. fukking thieves

and like a FUKKIN CULT LEADER he referred to FORMER STUDENTS as DETRACTORS.

L-M-F-A-O!!!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

This is one of the best sets created... Whether it is a recreated set , original or hybrid, it doesn't matter...28 postures are right from asanas yoga. These postures employ both static and dynamic stretches using three types of muscle actions; isometric, concentric and or essentric movements... It does the job very well....as with all Shaolin systems it is the foundation for all the other training employed by shaolin. If you look at my website we require 7 postures at each of the 7 lower levels.

[tattooedmonk]

shaolin do = gung fu learned from books and video's.

its no one else's fault but SHAOLIN DO for pretending to be authentic shaolin. LMAO.

your schools should pay homage to all of the lineages your school has ripped off from. fukking thieves

and like a FUKKIN CULT LEADER he referred to FORMER STUDENTS as DETRACTORS.

L-M-F-A-O!!!!!!!!!Everything I have ever learned I give credit and pay honor to its source....once again assumptions...let's get some more ignorance and blankets statements and some name calling.....etc...:cool::rolleyes:

[themeecer]

and like a FUKKIN CULT LEADER he referred to FORMER STUDENTS as DETRACTORS.


detractors plural of de·trac·tor

Noun:
A person who disparages someone or something.


Moron.

[hskwarrior]

detractors plural of de·trac·tor

noun:
A person who disparages someone or something.


Moron.

detractor: A term used by the shaolin do cult. geek.

[tattooedmonk]

detractors plural of de·trac·tor

Noun:
A person who disparages someone or something.


Moron.This is hilarious.... :D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

This is one of the best sets created... Whether it is a recreated set , original or hybrid, it doesn't matter...28 postures are right from asanas yoga. These postures employ both static and dynamic stretches using three types of muscle actions; isometric, concentric and or essentric movements... It does the job very well....as with all Shaolin systems it is the foundation for all the other training employed by shaolin. If you look at my website we require 7 postures at each of the 7 lower levels.Bump;):):D:cool:

[JSE]

Let me pose this question. Purely hypothetical.

First and foremost I am NOT a Sin The proponent in any way.

Lets say that the same situation occurred in your given system or style that occurred in SD. Lineage was found to be bunk, forms created out of thin air etc...

Given the passion that a lot of you guys have for your given styles, and the amount of time that you have put into said style, what would your reaction be?

There are a plethora of SD'ers that have handled the situation differently. Some reject the system all together. Some admit the wrong doing and continue to practice because they enjoy what they do and history does not matter to them. Some still blindly follow Sin The to the bitter and historically inaccurate end and drink all the kool-aide they can stomach!

Im just curious as to what others would do if put into the same situation. And this is not directed at any particular person, nor am I trying to prove any point for one side or the other. ;)

[Syn7]

New SD threads tend to get merged into this one. Gene likes to keep all things SD in one place.

Ask him nicely if he wouldn't mind letting a crew thread stand so you guys can have a serious discussion without as much interference and obfuscation. Anyone tried that?

[Syn7]

Actually that title goes to you!:D I could care less at this point.

Don't you mean you could NOT care less?


You have until christmas to produce this amazing evidence. If it doesn't happen, you have PROVEN that you are a poseur. Better start workin on that PDF, son.

[hskwarrior]

Don't you mean you could NOT care less?


let the dude swim in his own ignorance. he's in the deep end right now :cool:


You have until christmas to produce this amazing evidence. If it doesn't happen, you have PROVEN that you are a poseur. Better start workin on that PDF, son.

he is a PDF :D already bro.

[Snipsky]

Snipsky, you must be late to the game and missed the part where hskwarrior Gcontinually berated the wishes of a grieving widow at her husband's funeral. He continually did that even though the deceased's student was treating him with the patience of Job. That is what had my hackles up. Most if not all the SD guys on here have been free with their names and locations. Show more respect?!?! Holy freaking crap! You must be joking. Are you blind to the lack of respect given to us by hskwarrior and many others on here? I could go on a month rampage slapping old women and orphans and never reach the level of disrespect shown by our detractors on here.

curious.....this is you themeecer? nice tan

http://ak2.okccdn.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/65535x65535/65535x65535/0/16823385827661071762.jpeg

[hskwarrior]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Don't you mean you could NOT care less?


You have until christmas to produce this amazing evidence. If it doesn't happen, you have PROVEN that you are a poseur. Better start workin on that PDF, son.If you knew what was meant why did you ask? Save you dramatics for someone else , son:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

http://www.thedisciplesofdesign.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/65_you-bore-me.jpg

[Syn7]

If you knew what was meant why did you ask? Save you dramatics for someone else , son:rolleyes:

21 days...

[hskwarrior]

http://www.deviantart.com/download/188479243/21_days_till_christmas_by_yanifruba-d347rij.jpg

[Leto]

I'll have to check out tong zi gong.

It's clear to me that the intent of the SD i chin ching is to build strength through isometric exercises. Combine this with the breathing and I think this is a very nice set.

@ Leto or others: Is the "traditional" 12-posture i chin ching done with dynamic or other tension? What is the underlying training objective/intent of the set?

Yes, the 12 postures are practiced with dynamic tension. It's intent in general is increasing strength and flexibility, internally and externally, with all the benefits that come with that for martial arts and health in general.

[Syn7]

I started a B-Boy crew called Dynamic Tension in the late 90's. Always seemed like an apt name.

Tong Zi Gong is the kind of thing you wanna do as a child. Good base. Not something I would personally choose to pick up later in life.

[hskwarrior]

I started a B-Boy crew called Dynamic Tension in the late 90's. Always seemed like an apt name.

my sifu still tells stories of how i used to carry linoleum with me everywhere ready to battle. :D

[Syn7]

Ha, we were too lazy for that. I can't even tell you how many times we just rocked out with the hoodie up and concrete. I remember I used to always clown my friend cause he always had scar tissue buildup at the centerline. My hair is straight, so I always wore a hat or hood. My friend tony had the the thick afro corn braids, that guy would headslide like 20 feet on hardwood, unfreakinbelievable. It always ****ed me off when the shortbus kids would come in with helmets. Like, really? That's just ridiculous. I have spun on my head so many times I would even try to pull out a number and my head is fine. Tougher, but fine. I can still feel soft touch and I can spin on my head without a hat, I just prefer one. And on concrete you kinda have to. My other friend dusty with the scars would get over excited and just go for it. I'll never forget how dumb he is. One time he did like 4 airflares on a 5 x 5 foot raised speaker platform about 10 feet high. He's so lucky his run was clean. The key to being a good BBoy is making your mistakes look intentional. Being able to come in and out of anything from any position at any time. Keep it smooth and know your limits. If you feel your off balance just pull out. Much better than crashing hard in front of 500 people judging you every second. Although we did have some crazy moments at drunken house parties where going huge was the only point. Somebody always got hurt and some dumb ****er always leaned into the cipher at the wrong time and got the **** knocked out of them from a flying foot. Ah, the good ol days.

[Napitenkah]

When I was 22, I went to a Fred Villari school in New Hampshire.
I am 45, soon to be 46 in a couple weeks.

I still have the black plastic Kubotan with Fred Villari etched on it, somewhere.

At the time I really didn't know much of anything about the martial art styles.

I didn't know Shaolin Kempo Karate was a hybrid of several styles.

[Shaolin Wookie]

my sifu still tells stories of how i used to carry a hogie with me everywhere ready to battle. :D

Fixed that for ya.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
my sifu used to play hide the salami with me after class. oh how i loved it when he picked me. I was one of the best in our school at this game.

wow, you're pretty open with this. seems like you've accepted the idea of being the secret hiding place for human salami.

[GeneChing]

I mentioned this thread crossing 1K in my publisher's corner in our new JAN+FEB 2013 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1073). I'm horrified that we're now at 1143 pages. That's another 143 in about a month.

Talk about feeding the monkey. And by monkey, I mean forum trolls. :rolleyes:

[Empty_Cup]

I mentioned this thread crossing 1K in my publisher's corner in our new JAN+FEB 2013 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1073). I'm horrified that we're now at 1143 pages. That's another 143 in about a month.

Talk about feeding the monkey. And by monkey, I mean forum trolls. :rolleyes:

I'd bet hsk and syn7 account for at least 75% of those posts...with only 1% of those filled with meaningful information. The other 99% are pics, slang, and big bold letters.

[hskwarrior]

I'd bet hsk and syn7 account for at least 75% of those posts...with only 1% of those filled with meaningful information. The other 99% are pics, slang, and big bold letters.

50% for me. the other two dikheads are part of this too. 'Specially dat spelling nazi LOLOL

BIG BOLD LETTERS

[themeecer]

'Specially dat spelling nazi LOLOL

Not a spelling Nazi, I make spelling mistakes all the time as well. I simply reason that if you are going to have a conversation with adults, you should at least try to sound like one.

[GeneChing]

You don't know how many submissions (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) I get that have poor spelling, at which point I just have to sit back and say 'Seriously?'

But themeecer does have a good point, hskwarrior. This thread is huge and gets picked up by the search engines, so people who might be interested in SD will stumble on it pretty quickly. And I feel sorry for them. That being said, if they are totally naive about anything martial arts, they will judge the course of this laborious tiresome and rather tedious debate on such details as spelling and manners. In which case, assuming that your mission is in fact to discredit SD hskwarrior, you do your argument a great disservice.

Remember, the forum is all fun and games for us, but it is open to anyone with internet access, so it can have impact upon the casual onlooker.

[hskwarrior]

but themeecer does have a good point, hskwarrior. This thread is huge and gets picked up by the search engines, so people who might be interested in sd will stumble on it pretty quickly. And i feel sorry for them. That being said, if they are totally naive about anything martial arts, they will judge the course of this laborious tiresome and rather tedious debate on such details as spelling and manners. In which case, assuming that your mission is in fact to discredit sd hskwarrior, you do your argument a great disservice.

simple solution. Delete and start another. I'm done *****in about them stealing forms. They weren't considering our feelings when they stole our stuff, i don't see why i should respect them.

I'm actually kinda done with this forum i think. Any forum i guess. I'm tired of all the drama. Makes me wanna hang myself. So this is my good bye to this retched place. See ya round tha bend. Asta manana. Good bye cruel world.

PS I DIDN'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THEM. IT WAS MORE THE THIEVERY THAN ANYTHING. THE REST WAS JUST LUMPIN' EM UP A BIT.

AND THE SPELLING THING IS FOR OCD SPELLING NAZI'S.

[hskwarrior]

nah, i'm just messin' wicha. I'm not going anywhere. I'll always be right here. Watching. Observing. Ready........

[GeneChing]

Well played, hskwarrior. :p


i don't see why i should respect them.
It's not 'them' you need to respect. It's the casual observers, the lurkers. Obviously, you're not going to sway many SD people. The ones you want to reach are those who are undecided - the nooBs. They will judge your arguments here upon your approach and attitude, as much if not more so, than actual content.

[hskwarrior]

fair enough. still, i'll take the lumps it brings. since they didn't care enough to not steal from others, i see things a little differently than you. i do things differently. its what makes to world go round. oh i'm sorry....AROUND.

[GeneChing]

since they didn't care enough to not steal from others, i see things a little differently than you. Indeed. One of the Buddhist vows I took was "A Disciple of Buddha is not possessive of the teaching". As a Songshan Shaolin practitioner, our forms are everywhere, so the issue you have is a non-issue for us. If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though. I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of the credit. When someone plagiarizes my published work, I'm more annoyed than flattered. Fortunately, it's easier now than ever to reclaim credit for such theft just by citing the earlier publication. I'd only be really annoyed if they made more money on it than I did. But then, I suppose I could sue for it. Not that this is a very likely outcome nowadays. There's so little money in writing now.


i do things differently. Yeah, I *did* notice that. :p

[Syn7]

Remember, the forum is all fun and games for us, but it is open to anyone with internet access, so it can have impact upon the casual onlooker.

I see why this would matter to you. But I know you understand that it means nothing to me or people like me and the only reason we stay in line is out of respect for you and what your goals are. I will always test boundaries. It's just how I do. I'm a scientist and the world is my lab, and everyone in it is a subject. But I will never just outright freak out like some. I like to slide my insult in between valid points :D

[One student]

Let me pose this question. Purely hypothetical.

First and foremost I am NOT a Sin The proponent in any way.

Lets say that the same situation occurred in your given system or style that occurred in SD. Lineage was found to be bunk, forms created out of thin air etc...

Given the passion that a lot of you guys have for your given styles, and the amount of time that you have put into said style, what would your reaction be?

There are a plethora of SD'ers that have handled the situation differently. Some reject the system all together. Some admit the wrong doing and continue to practice because they enjoy what they do and history does not matter to them. Some still blindly follow Sin The to the bitter and historically inaccurate end and drink all the kool-aide they can stomach!

Im just curious as to what others would do if put into the same situation. And this is not directed at any particular person, nor am I trying to prove any point for one side or the other. ;)

I think this is what it really comes down to. You have so many people, all over the country. And starting out from a time that martial arts was so new here, very few in this country knew kung fu from anything. But what Sin The showed was, or what would at least appear to anyone then as, martial arts. It had a variety that TKD and judo or karate for example did not: stand up, grappling, weapons, animals, internal, etc. And ST, at least then, could back it up practically by action. I have heard no one say that in the 60's and even 70's and 80's, Sin The's skill was anything but excellent. And that his brother who also taught from the same school, in the same school, and the same material, was also an excellent teacher and practitioner.

And at a time and place where quite frankly there wasn't much else to choose from. What else was available in the 60's and 70's? In many places, who aren't forutnate enough to live in bigger urban areas, what else is there to choose from even now?

And so he taught some material, that no one has said came from anywhere other than the schools and teachers he learned it from, in Indonesia, who were at least some part from China, and taught stuff that otherwise looked like what it was billed to be. And on visits there, saw it to be what it was billed to be, there.

And even though it appers, to say the least, some questions can now be raised about the source and origin of some of the things that have been said, and some of the material, many people have put a lot of time and effort into that material, and practicing it. And regardless of what others say about where it came from and how it has been presented, many people have gotten a lot from it, from pure fitness, to a lot more. And fair minded people here and elsewhere have commented on the continuing skills many SD teachers and long-time students have and are still able to demonstrate, many who have been named and shown. And there are people who practice it seriously who have gotten more self defense skill, fitness, and health, from it than if they were doing nothing, and more than that. There are SD students and practitioners who can hold their own against the best anywhere; and yes there are SD students and practitioners, as there are in all other schools and systems, who couldn't hold their own against anyone.

So people who really have no stake in it then call them names, ridicule them. For what? Mostly because the source of what they were told about it, or where it came from, may not be what they were told.

So you pose the proper question: do those people who have built the heart of their practice around the material and lessons in SD decide, because of the criticisms (right and wrong), to quit doing it? And at whatever age or experience, quit doing anything, or try to start over with something completely different -- which by the way may or may not work out better for them than the SD does -- or may or may not have available better options. Maybe not the best choices, but those might be the only choices -- or do nothing at all. Not everyone has a Shaolin monk, a CLF master, etc., down the street or across town. How many schools these days are a hybrid of things the owner of that school has picked up here and there and repackaged as their own -- saying so or not.

So if a person finds they have obtained great benefits from the Ie Chin Chings, from the breathing meditation and chi kung training; from the parts of Pa Kua, Tai Chi, and Hsing Ie they got; from the external forms and exercises and drills, and the later ones, too; have had fun doing it; and maybe know more about self defense and are fitter persons, with a lifelong training regimen to practice, all because of those things --even if supplemented by public books and videos and texts and other teachers, telling them more about the material than maybe they got in class (there are many examples on this forum who have done that and expanded what SD taught them) -- and are better at those things than they would have been without it; but then also find a lot of other martial arts persons hate them, make fun of them, criticize them because that is the practice they fell into, or because of what they wear, or what words they use, right or wrong. According to some they should just quit doing it, start over somewhere else or do nothing. And they are bad people if they don't.

I think instead it is a legitimate choice, if one in that position wants to continue practicing what they know under those circumstances, or for that matter want to start praciticing something that so many others across the country profess and demonstrate to get something positive from, and looks to have what they want in a system -- good for them. They don't have to buy into stories or get tangled up in who's lineage is better, or even if there is one. They don't have to like the fact that a false story was told about some parts of it. They should judge if they are going to get more from continuing to do it, or from starting it, than from the next available option. If they make that choice in an informed way, outsiders, other than natural haters or those jealous of something, should not be concerned or care. Spreading truthful, constructive, helpful information, that's a good thing. Hating for the sake of hating, that is not.

I went to buy a car. I wanted an American car, for probably bad economic but good nationalistic reasons. I looked at an American product at an American dealer, and it had the price and etc. that I wanted, more than the next thing. And then I found out it was mostly made in South Korea. I could have gotten rid of it. But I liked it so I kept it.

Sometimes you cut your losses. Sometimes you "double down" or "hedge your bets." Sometimes you do the best you can with what you have, and with the choices you have available. Although everyone is correct that going to or even staying with SD in pure blind belief it is something that it clearly is not -- not a good thing. But going to it or sticking with it, as a decision based on available choices, in an informed manner, not a bad thing. Even if that means going to a class or a seminar and picking something up that you couldn't readily get somewhere else. It may not be much better than buying the book or video to get the same thing. But it may not be worse either.

And the people who make that choice, for the good reasons, do not deserve others who do or do not have a stake in it to insult them, merely for that choice.

Yes, it may be rationalization. But at least that's one way of looking at it. And I'm sure its not the only way. I'm the last person to say that I can't be wrong, or that anyone who disagrees must be. But I could be right, for some people, in some situations.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone know a good source for more info about Hsing-I that is compatable with SD's forms?



Also, has anyone ever seen any hsing-i "turtle" like the "turtle" in SD's 12 animals?

[Syn7]

Indeed. One of the Buddhist vows I took was "A Disciple of Buddha is not possessive of the teaching". As a Songshan Shaolin practitioner, our forms are everywhere, so the issue you have is a non-issue for us. If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though. I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of the credit. When someone plagiarizes my published work, I'm more annoyed than flattered. Fortunately, it's easier now than ever to reclaim credit for such theft just by citing the earlier publication. I'd only be really annoyed if they made more money on it than I did. But then, I suppose I could sue for it. Not that this is a very likely outcome nowadays. There's so little money in writing now.

Yeah, I *did* notice that. :p

Yeah, I'm an open source guy myself. For me it isn't about ownership, but giving credit where credit is due. Even when I make music, I just give it to people I know to run with it and make a song out of it. Sometimes I will do the post-prod, but I don't really care. Once I put it out here I just let the process flow organically. I may charge for my time, but not for the product of that time. Make sense? Like with building electronics, I wont charge for the use of my design, just parts and labour for the product itself.

[brucereiter]

Does anyone know a good source for more info about Hsing-I that is compatable with SD's forms?



Also, has anyone ever seen any hsing-i "turtle" like the "turtle" in SD's 12 animals?

Several posts back I posted links to the book series that contains all of the hsing I taught by sin the. That is a good resource and is likely where sin the learned it from to begin with.

Jiang rong qiao has some good books about hsing i that were translated by joseph Crandall.

[brucereiter]

Good post onestudent...

[wenshu]

If SD started practicing our forms under some other name, we'd be amused but not that offended. Don't get me wrong though.

I once saw a Shaolin Do proponent perform Da Hong Quan with laughably bad shenfa and he called it 'Tiger Panther Third Eye Rooster Face takes Golden Shower'

I said,
"Meh. So you went to Deng Feng and gave some random passerby a few cartons of smokes and a bottle of MaoTai Jiu in exchange for a few moves. Who hasn't done that?"

[Orion Paximus]

I once saw a Shaolin Do proponent perform Da Hong Quan with laughably bad shenfa and he called it 'Tiger Panther Third Eye Rooster Face takes Golden Shower'

I said,
"Meh. So you went to Deng Feng and gave some random passerby a few cartons of smokes and a bottle of MaoTai Jiu in exchange for a few moves. Who hasn't done that?"

heh, let's not pretend that it's even remotely hard to locate most of the current contemporary shaolin forms online these days. Shi De Cheng and others have seen to most of that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I have a questions about the techniques presented in this video and how they realate to the overall practice of shaolin do. What are the main stragies employed by SD? the reason I ask is because each of the arts it has "borrowed" from have their own unique structure designed to employ a specific combative strategy. How does SD attempt to combine these and what exactly are the overall principles of the system?

It's like this.

Shaolin-Do teaches "sparring techniques" and "short forms." GM Sin made-up these techniques in order to teach forms-illiterate Americans how to do kung fu. These are very good techniques, when in the right hands. Many of the sequences are combinations of chinna, striking, and sweeping. Also, since they're the first thing you learn, and become the foundation for everything that you do learn up until black belt, they are also the most important things that you learn.

What was demonstrated in the video was how to take core principles in order to apply them to sparring in more advanced ways than TKD kicking fests (which most CMA turns into).

There are several "theories" of how to apply these short forms and sparring techniques (like KAT), but I've always felt that the fancier "theories" were a tad off base since they neglected the obvious (as I saw it). The sparring class was handled well, and the techniques were sound. But the sparring in the video (I'm in it, too) was a little confusing, since we weren't wearing gloves. I pulled everything prior to contact (and avoided the face), so I wouldn't consider it a demo of SD sparring itself.

Anyways, at most traditional schools I've visited and practiced with (as a beginner, mind you), you learn some basic punching drills, do some workouts, and then work on forms. When application time comes, it's usually 2-step moves with a compliant partner. You get the same thing in SD. But SD's beginner 2-step partner drills are usually more realistic, as I see them, than what I've seen at...say, a beginner Hung Gar school. Not hating, just expressing an opinion.

Some of these drills in traditional schools are just "made-up" ****. SD doesn't have a monopoly on that in CMA.;) But it always gets the hell kicked out of it for the same thing, even if its product is better in that regard.

As things develop, the belt-ranking system is tied to forms memorization. I'll admit that. And I've memorized forms that I would rather not practice (and do not practice a whole lot). But I'll keep them up for the sake of testing. What most people end up doing is specializing or leaving the art. Technique-wise, few competent MA's by the rank of black belt are looking around for applications. The core principles were sound enough to provide most answers, and centerline/gate theory fills in the rest. With a good teacher, you can learn xing yi, tai chi, and sevenstar mantis and get insight into the unique power of each art. With a bad one, you'll probably get xingchimantis.

Even when I cross-train, it's more about touching hands with other people to see how they solve problems. I have too many applications and forms--I don't need more.

How does it all come together? AS you practice more, you realize that the forms don't come together--they grow further apart. You become a better MA for making those distinctions. But this takes time (and much thought).

TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.

The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.

Sometimes it sticks, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes something you saw 3 years ago and didn't understand will suddenly make sense. Sometimes some teachers are very adept, and sometimes certain teachers are very inept.

[themeecer]

Good post onestudent...

I agree, very good post.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Example: I took a takedowns seminar after studying the art for about a couple of months. I could perform none of the takedowns after the seminar (I wasn't skilled enough), but I perform many of them routinely now. I took notes back then, and then just left them on the backburner. But when I was skilled enough 4-5 years later, they were very natural takedowns (and embedded in many forms, as I saw quite clearly).

Sometimes this kind of teaching is very valuable. I've also been to schools where they won't let you progress until you perform a technique 100 times. ANd if you come back the next day, they'll make you do it another 100 times until you get it right (as the teacher sees it). This kind of repitition is valuable, at times, but think of what you DON'T learn when you become a microscopist of knowledge. Sometimes a little breadth goes a long way and works out in the long-run.

Since learning is subject-specific, I think most of the debate in this thread concerning SD's learning format boils down to people admitting the superiority of the learning format in which the particular person making the argument learns the best. Not exactly science, if you catch my drift.

[themeecer]

With a good teacher, you can learn xing yi, tai chi, and sevenstar mantis and get insight into the unique power of each art. With a bad one, you'll probably get xingchimantis.

LOL. It took me a second to figure out what xingchimantis was. This a struggle I have as an instructor. I have so much material to teach and I strive to improve on conveying these distinctions to my students. It is one thing to be able to do the material and an entirely different thing to have your students duplicate this.

I would jump at the opportunity to take a class or a series of classes that improves my skills as a teacher.



TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.

The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.

Sometimes it sticks, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes something you saw 3 years ago and didn't understand will suddenly make sense. Sometimes some teachers are very adept, and sometimes certain teachers are very inept.

You knocked it out of the park with this analogy.

[Snipsky]

How does it all come together? AS you practice more, you realize that the forms don't come together--they grow further apart. You become a better MA for making those distinctions. But this takes time (and much thought).

TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.

The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.

hi, mr wook. i have question pls. if SD equals a college Education compared to TMA as you put it, why are the students (black belts included) looking like they never make it past white belts. i see many SD videos lately and compared to TMA even the teacher of SD is at white belt level. i don't understand. TY

[Judge Pen]

hi, mr wook. i have question pls. if SD equals a college Education compared to TMA as you put it, why are the students (black belts included) looking like they never make it past white belts. i see many SD videos lately and compared to TMA even the teacher of SD is at white belt level. i don't understand. TY

Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.

[Judge Pen]

This reminds me of a case another lawyer at my firm handled once. It was a bar-fight where one patron smashed a glass mug in the face of another. When interviewing the bartender about the altercation the question was asked about the guy that ultimately ended the altercation: "Was he a big guy?" The Answer: "No, but he wasn't no poodle-d ick either."

[Snipsky]

Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.

oh my apologies, i just haven' seen anyone yet to make me say wow. i woud really like to like SD, i am unable to say so far i found anything in SD that i see as high level..

please share me, why would someone choose SD Tiger and Bird as opposed to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane?

[Judge Pen]

oh my apologies, i just haven' seen anyone yet to make me say wow. i woud really like to like SD, i am unable to say so far i found anything in SD.

please share me, why would someone choose SD Tiger and Bird as opposed to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane?

I wouldn't make you say "wow" either. But if we trained or sparred you would have respect for my ability to use what I know (regardless of what we now know about the source). Besides, making someone say "wow" and comparing them to a beginner are very different things.

To answer your question: if people did the research and had the opportunity, I wanted to train in a CMA style, I doubt anyone would chose SD over Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane. Maybe a parent that likes the structure of an SD class over the Hung Gar class that it is being compared to, or someone going to an SD class because there's a hot chick training there. :)

I've said this a dozen times, when I started training 20 years ago in a small Appalachian town in Southwest Virginia, there were few options. There was no real way to compare or research SD and contrast it with other arts purporting to be kung fu. I looked at the local isshin-ryu school, the local TKD school and the local "karate" school and thought that the training and teacher were superior in SD. Had there been a local CLF, Hung Gar, mantis, etc., I may have made a different decision.

[Snipsky]

oh ok ty :)

[wenshu]

heh, let's not pretend that it's even remotely hard to locate most of the current contemporary shaolin forms online these days. Shi De Cheng and others have seen to most of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
(what the hell does 'current contemporary' mean?)

[wenshu]

Actually to be fair some of the stuff presented in this video isnt horrible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU
I've seen students of "legit" sifus do worse.


If it's not compliant nonsense it's wild arm swinging and hopping around on one foot with the hands guarding the chest. Looks like all the other crappy kempo style 'sparring' you see in 99.9 of modern CMA schools.

I'll join you in ****ing with faint praise. It is the best of the SD clips presented thus far; at least it wasn't some watered down seminar tai chi cloud hands with no shenfa and zombie eyes. However, make no mistake; that's not an endorsement.

[wenshu]

SD = college education.


http://www.wgu.edu/

[Empty_Cup]

...

How does it all come together? AS you practice more, you realize that the forms don't come together--they grow further apart. You become a better MA for making those distinctions. But this takes time (and much thought).

TMA = private tutors.
SD = college education.

The distinction here? SD is the kind of school where someone is going to throw 10 different kinds of information at you in the hopes that something will stick. Unlike college, it isn't overpriced.

Sometimes it sticks, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes something you saw 3 years ago and didn't understand will suddenly make sense. Sometimes some teachers are very adept, and sometimes certain teachers are very inept.

Great overall post SW. Especially the part quoted above. This analogy is exactly how I think of SD. Just to add to it, here are my thoughts and personal goals in practicing SD:

- With such a broad curriculum, it is nearly impossible for a teacher to "master" all of the SD material. However, since mastery is relative, I feel I can learn a helluva lot from somebody who has spent more time practicing and thinking about a specific style/application/training than I have. It's like they say, "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king."

- That being said, I DO think that teachers tend to specialize within a certain area of the overall curriculum. They will still teach the whole program as a base, but due to certain body types and individual interests they naturally gravitate towards a few specialties. Because of this, for example, I would never say that a SD teacher who teaches Ba Gua but doesn't really have a passion for it would be close to a Ba Gua teacher who has spent decades teaching just that art. However, there are definitely some SD teachers out there who have a real passion for Ba Gua (in this example) and have done whatever it takes to develop high skill in this art. They have expanded upon their base and spent a lot of time practicing, thinking, and developing their skill. Most likely, they have looked to outside resources to hone their skills further. I don't see any problem with this. Shouldn't one expect the same from their teachers? To continue learning and developing no matter what level they're at?

- Because of the above, certain schools will naturally have a higher level of teaching in specific programs. For example, at my school our Master has been practicing iron bone for over 30 years. It's obvious to me this is a specialty of our school and I hope to honor my school by training this as well. For other schools there are other specialties.

- All of this being said, my personal goal in SD is to develop my body, mind, and spirit primarily through training and conditioning, then to use that foundation in forms practice, application, and sparring. I fully expect to have to learn some forms that I don't have passion for. I full expect to, at some point, expand my training in a specialty area and to do whatever it takes to develop skill in that area. Maybe this means at some point I'll take additional lessons at a school that specializes in that art. But for the time being I will train hard in my SD material.

[GeneChing]

I see why this would matter to you. But I know you understand that it means nothing to me or people like me and the only reason we stay in line is out of respect for you and what your goals are. I will always test boundaries. How members want themselves to be perceived is totally up to that individual. If we were control freaks about that, we wouldn't even bother with sponsoring this forum. My point is that this thread has considerable weight on the web. You can sully it with as much trash talk as you like, but in the end, that's a poor strategy, as the success or failure of SD will be based on its net reproductive success, and if your intention is to avenge a past insult leveled against your clan by SD with arguments that are just trash talk, that is a losing strategy. Better to hide in the temple for a few years, invent some new weapon, and come out swinging. ;)

I do appreciate that our veteran members here like you Syn7, generally mind their Ps & Qs out of respect. In return, as a publisher, I defend this forum as a place where anyone can have their say (within reason), even to my bosses here (who are the ones who really pay the bills). To repeat a quote oft mistakenly attributed to Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That being said, I don't disapprove all that you all say, and it's not going to be to the death, but you get the general idea.

[Shaolindynasty]

I may not touch on everything but I'll touch on a few topics in depth;)



Shaolin-Do teaches "sparring techniques" and "short forms." GM Sin made-up these techniques in order to teach forms-illiterate Americans how to do kung fu. These are very good techniques, when in the right hands. Many of the sequences are combinations of chinna, striking, and sweeping. Also, since they're the first thing you learn, and become the foundation for everything that you do learn up until black belt, they are also the most important things that you learn.

What was demonstrated in the video was how to take core principles in order to apply them to sparring in more advanced ways than TKD kicking fests (which most CMA turns into).


Now we are speaking the same language. What are the core principles of shaolin do? For instance the core principles in CLF are as follows

The Ten Elements
the ten elements are 10 concepts based on different types of movement. These translate into different types of strikes. the elements are kum,chuen na, gwa, sau, chop, pow, kup, biu, ding, jong

10 elements with names and chinese characters
http://youtu.be/uuTBbKucwdI

another video of ten elements with view of the leg and footwork
http://youtu.be/_hn-nR6juC4

The 5 Kicks
same as the elements but for the lower body. The kicks are dik(or dan), chang, so, chou, tan
http://youtu.be/dHpOkkG7kL4

Gate theory
Dividing the opponents body up into sections to determine which angle is best to attack with what element or kick given the circumstance.

Asterisk footwork
or bagua footwork if you want to sound esoteric. refers to 8 different directions in which you can step invasively or evasively depending on the situation.

These concepts form the basis for the entire CLF system. The physical structure and strategies employed by a CLF practitioner supports the use of these concepts. The concepts come before the forms, the forms were created to be examples of these concepts employed in different circumstances. It's the same for any system of TCMA. Hung Kuen for instance has the 12 bridges, 5 elements etc. Taichi has peng, liu, ji, an, li, tsai, shou,cao etc. mantis likewise has its own concepts.

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.


As for CMA kick fests, that is more an issue of lack of understanding the use of the underlying concepts that causes that. It is important to develop a systematic and organized approach to teaching martial skills that reinforce the use of our respective systems. I wrote about the systematic approach at length on a blog article of mine that you can read here http://hungsingmartialarts.blogspot.com/2012/10/martial-arts-forms-application-static.html

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I am very much against the hit or miss teaching method as well as technique overload you mentioned. My personal experience has shown that a few concepts learned well through a systematic approach will serve you better than a general overview of alot of techniques. You mentioned it took 4 or 5 years to learn how to use the takedowns you learned well. With a more systemized approach it should have taken very little time.

For instance I trained a student who had no previous martial arts experience to compete in the legends of kung fu sanda tournament in 6 months time. we drilled only the clf concepts listed above with an emphasis on invasive side step with kup (an overhand swinging punch). below is video of his 2 fights. His first opponent was a fellow clf practitioner with 11yrs experience to his 6 months in this match my student is in red headgear. The 2nd opponent I'm not sure in this match my student is in black headgear. i also want to state that he was completely gassed in the 2nd match as he had to fight the 2 matches back to back. My students lack of ring expeience shows here but even with the nerves etc that come with that you can still see the concepts listed above being applied. http://youtu.be/P7OdDjZ0a50

[Shaolindynasty]

Actually I should add that the progressive method of training is how my school and the school I came from trains. There are plenty of CLF schools that dont really know all the concepts of the system and dont train to apply their art in this manner. They stick to the classic "step" type drills wild uncontrolled sparring and emphasize forms practice. I am not trying to pick on SD here because i recongise this is a problem throughout all of TMA. I am merely taking this opportunity to express my views on the subject

and class this joint up a bit LOL

[themeecer]

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE


Nice drilling sets there Shaolindynasty. We don't have a predefined set like those beyond 2 sets of "one step sparring" techniques. I agree with you that some progression drilling would be very beneficial to training. Obviously it would aid in flattening the learning curve.

By the way .. congrats on the weight loss.

[kwaichang]

Believe Half of what you see and none of what you hear, and also just because its on the Internet doesnt make it true. There are real good MA in SD you just havent seen them and they dont care if you have or not. KC:)

[Shaolindynasty]

Believe Half of what you see and none of what you hear, and also just because its on the Internet doesnt make it true. There are real good MA in SD you just havent seen them and they dont care if you have or not.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not but it it is are you saying people can believe half of what they see from me and nothing of what they hear from you?:confused:



Nice drilling sets there Shaolindynasty. We don't have a predefined set like those beyond 2 sets of "one step sparring" techniques. I agree with you that some progression drilling would be very beneficial to training. Obviously it would aid in flattening the learning curve.

By the way .. congrats on the weight loss.

It really does flatten the learning curve. It was designed by us because we feel that everyone in our school should be able to use what they are taught to maintain a certian standard. and thanks for the compliments

[kwaichang]

I am saying do not judge by what you see on the Internet. Many SD people are good in MA and good fighters. SD drills alot of conditioning and application. So some not all are pretty good at their fighting. The U Tube stuff is not to be the tell all know all of SD. But if Shaolin Dynasty put the films of him up he looked real good to me in his technigue. So what I meant was do not judge all SD people by what you have seen thus far. KC

[Judge Pen]

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.


In all fairness, I think that is exactly why SD is so sloppy in its forms and many of the people we see on the web are not well represented. SD does not have a well-articluated core (regarding the terminology for different strickes and theories). They are drilled through the short-form and sparring technique and those techniques creep into most all of the different forms of SD (even when the underlying forms may have different concepts at work). I think this mish mash allows for a lot of indendent thought and expression in the art. My own individual technique and style may vary significantly from someone else because of my individual talents, limitations and understanding of technique. I use what I can make work for me, but someone else many be of equal skill with the same experience that has a different skill set.

We have plenty to criticize about the history, lineage and ethics of SD and its founder. What you've identified above is a valid criticism of the system as its taught. There's a counter-point to this that I was recently discussing with a gentlemen that is still actively training that I will try to articulate when I have more time.

[wenshu]

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I don't know anything about CLF but you might want to tell your men not to jump backwards like that after every exchange; very bad habit.

[Syn7]

Ask some of the CMA people here that have met me whether or not my skill is "beginner." I don't have videos up, but I've cited to non-SD people on this forum that have judged me and sparred me that would disagree with your very broad and subjective statement. When I trained I was not the best SD person out there, but anyone that sparred with me knew I wasn't a no-nothing chump and would respect my limited abilities afterwards.

It's not about you. It's about the fact that there are a **** ton of SD "black belts" on youtube that absolutely suck. Even if there are great SD BlackBelts, this is still absolutely unaccptable. That doesn't mean you suck, or that every SD guy sucks. It means that many are promoted to levels they are not capable of defending. Of course some folks just don't have it in them and aren't willing or capable of putting in the effort needed to truly achieve an advanced level. And then there are others who don't care about getting good, they just like the workout and the company. That's awesome that they enjoy themselves, but don't promote these people.

I honestly believe that more emphasis is put on time in rather than skill out and belts are given too easily for one simple reason. Money. Some people would just go somewhere else if they weren't advancing enough. I think SD either had no standards to begin with or caved to that sort of pressure.

You DO NOT advance ANYONE who has not EARNED it with SKILL. NOT money and time.

A BB should not forget moves, look sloppy. If you are a "onepunch" you should not have a BB. I don't care if you are male or female, young or old, the skill level should be the same. It's not an honorary title and should not be bought or freely given for any reason other than to reward pure skill and execution.

The ONLY exception is people who earned it with skill then got old and lost their physical abilities. In this case, honorary titles are great. They earned it, it's theirs for life. It's like a doctor who gets old or ill so they cant perform any more. They still deserve their degree, even if they cannot execute the skills anymore. A wise person in that position takes up the role of grandfather and passes their skills orally with instruction and critique rather than by example. Which is totally fair enough and very valuable. But remember, these people actually earned their titles in the first place. Nothing more useless than a BB that could never execute the skills they are supposed to have.

[Snipsky]

t's not about you. It's about the fact that there are a **** ton of SD "black belts" on youtube that absolutely suck.

he's saying what i was too scared to say. you would think some "GOOD" SD students would post some GOOD material to outbalance the bad stuff we see. me too, i would love to see something good from SD. i love good martial arts. its sad to see black belts looking worse that white belts.

in the video of the demo in the gym, the two or three man forms, the ones not performing are just roaming around, spectating rather participating

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/DPxto_g1kiw
Enjoy and beware he will be coming for you next KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

In all fairness, I think that is exactly why SD is so sloppy in its forms and many of the people we see on the web are not well represented. .

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties.:rolleyes: Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.;)

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/Ml4HjaI3iXk Not Chinese but note , this is Real Kara Te, not anything like SD. KC

[Snipsky]

This person is Shaolin Do Black Belt right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPxto_g1kiw&feature=youtu.be

[Kellen Bassette]

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties.:rolleyes: Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.;)

I'm not speaking to SD here...but I share Syn's contempt with the crappy BBs. This is certainly not unique to any style. It is absolutely shameful the quality of martial artists that where a BB.

I understand not everyone has the same goals with their training, but if you can't fight, can't do a decent form, can't effectively apply your art, and haven't become a better athlete, what qualifies you to wear a black belt? In my opinion, 5 years of paying tuition shouldn't cut it.

If instructors don't have the will to deny rank to those who don't deserve it then they need to do away with their ranking systems. They won't though, because it will hurt their bottom line.

It is absolutely shameful and a disgrace to all MAs the quality of many BBs out there. It cheapens everything.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. That's why teachers more and more turn to them (or to sashes....same diff). They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience, since most masters cannot pay the bills and turn away new students who they don't think will become masters (and few do, of course). If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped in terms of ratios--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not untouchable.

[Kellen Bassette]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience. If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not bodhidharma.

I don't have any delusions of grandeur that a BB makes you deadly. But I think it should show a level of proficiency. I also recognize that many people treat MAs as a social club and are just there for fun. So those people don't have to wear a belt, or can stay a white belt. If you don't want to put the hard work in but enjoy coming to class, go for it...but don't dishonor your teacher, your style and the martial arts community by wearing a BB.

You shouldn't wear a badge if your not a cop, a green beret if your not one, (although I think the army ruined this??) call yourself a SEAL if you haven't done the training..I'm not saying a BB compares to this, because it doesn't anymore...but it should.

[wenshu]

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties.:rolleyes:

They weren't conveniently passed over, they were duly considered and summarily dismissed.

[Syn7]

In all honesty, I don't know why these people are held (by this forum) to the standard of "representing" anything. Most of them have fun doing kung fu in their spare time, do not purport to represent anything, show up to some SD-only "tournaments" to show their talents (in whatever degree that they have them), have fun, and then go home.

A bunch of *******s on the internet then tear them to shreds like they're the be-all and end-all of Shaolin-Do.

I've been to traditional CMA schools. I've seen, respectively, worse representations of Hung Gar in person within Hung Gar schools than SD's web vidoes. I just didn't videotape them, hold Hung Gar to the fire because of them, and then trash them as talentless hacks. And I've seen, in person, a fantastic Hung Gar master at a Hung Gar school, with some very talented senior students.

We've posted videos of SD masters on this thread--Sr. Master Nance, Master Reid, Master Mullins, etc. They tend to get conveniently passed over in commentary, and then a bunch of trolls rip in on some black belt student performing a form in the eighties.:rolleyes: Honestly, some of those people in those videos in all likelihood no longer practice any martial arts whatsoever. They'd probably be flabberghasted if they were informed today that they're the standard by which SD is judged.

LOl...some of those people are someone's mom and dad, who do kung fu for exercise and don't purport to be masters. Just a little perspective for y'all.;)


If you actually read my comments you will see that I went in some depth as to how I felt about those videos of the teachers.

They are held by the same standard as everyone else. I expect them to have earned their rank. I'm not gonna trash a bunch of orange belt kids. But I will bash a BB that can't execute. And yes, some have been much better than others, obviously. It bothers me to see people giving away titles for so little. It's dangerous and down right irresponsible.

I wonder if that's why tcma's use the filial system instead? Who is good at what is rather obvious, and the titles are respectful of position and time invested as opposed to skill. Although often it's both simply because those who do stick around tend to excel. It's ok to be there for fun and health and not care about combat, but you shouldn't reward that with a skill rank that was not earned. EVER.

[Syn7]

Right. Belts are a good way to organize students who come and go on strict schedules and can't spend every day in a Kwoon. That's why teachers more and more turn to them (or to sashes....same diff). They are a marker of progress of some sort or at least of experience, since most masters cannot pay the bills and turn away new students who they don't think will become masters (and few do, of course). If you guys can show me the place where a black belt is a license to kill, I'll go check it out .

I have a low rank in bjj, but I can still tap out black belts now and again, and I rarely get tapped in terms of ratios--it's usually a draw.

Like it or not, belts only mean what they mean. In sd, they mean you're a serious student, not untouchable.

Umm, what?

I am yet to see anyone walk into a real BJJ school without a good amount of their own skills and not get their ass handed to them.

I was a good wrestler, they just took advantage of that. I was good at squirming and was flexible, they just took advantage of that. I was good at tumbling and breakfalls, they just took advantage of that. If you can tap BB's in any sort of regular fashion, either you are underrated or they are overrated. Seriously, ask anyone who does straight BJJ and they will tell you the same thing. The belts actually mean something. If you can't execute, you don't deserve it. A BB getting caught once or twice is inevitable. But not on any sort of regular basis? That speaks volumes. Unless I'm missing some valuable piece of info that makes it all come together, I can't see it. Nobody under a high level purple should be able to tap any new black more than the odd time when they don't give their all to defend. When I'm training with somebody smaller or less experienced, I ease up a bit all the time. I give a certain amount of resistance and let them work it out. On the other hand, whenever I really catch somebody that is way better than me, I know what's going on and why it happened and I'm not gonna get all happy about it.

[Syn7]

They weren't conveniently passed over, they were duly considered and summarily dismissed.

I didn't even dismiss them. I went into detail on more than one occasion. But then I guess I'm just a hater.

[brucereiter]

he's saying what i was too scared to say. you would think some "GOOD" SD students would post some GOOD material to outbalance the bad stuff we see. me too, i would love to see something good from SD. i love good martial arts. its sad to see black belts looking worse that white belts.

in the video of the demo in the gym, the two or three man forms, the ones not performing are just roaming around, spectating rather participating

I think I was a "good" sd student. There are several videos of me doing ima stuff I learned wile I was involved with sd
Of coarse i am not a master...

[JSE]

So you have 2 new students. One a fit, natural athlete. The other is 40 lbs overweight with a hip problem. They progress through the rank system together. Both receive bb's. The athlete does not look much better than when he started, however looks phenomenal in every thing he does. The overweight guy has lost the weight, improved tremendously, but still looks a little sloppy in his technique due to hip issues. So based on work and effort, who deserves the rank more?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Umm, what?

I am yet to see anyone walk into a real BJJ school without a good amount of their own skills and not get their ass handed to them.

I was a good wrestler, they just took advantage of that. I was good at squirming and was flexible, they just took advantage of that. I was good at tumbling and breakfalls, they just took advantage of that. If you can tap BB's in any sort of regular fashion, either you are underrated or they are overrated. Seriously, ask anyone who does straight BJJ and they will tell you the same thing. The belts actually mean something. If you can't execute, you don't deserve it. A BB getting caught once or twice is inevitable. But not on any sort of regular basis? That speaks volumes. Unless I'm missing some valuable piece of info that makes it all come together, I can't see it. Nobody under a high level purple should be able to tap any new black more than the odd time when they don't give their all to defend. When I'm training with somebody smaller or less experienced, I ease up a bit all the time. I give a certain amount of resistance and let them work it out. On the other hand, whenever I really catch somebody that is way better than me, I know what's going on and why it happened and I'm not gonna get all happy about it.

Don't fight bjj on its own terms. Use your wrestling, be careful, and don't reach for openings. I'm not talking competition here, where someone has to win. I'm talking straight rolling. If you can pull back to your feet, you should, rather than pursuing a better bb through his rolls. Its not easy, and sometimes this is where i get tapped, but i can and do escape if i dont like where a seasion on the fround is going. Too many people play by expectation, and stay committed to the ground when they don't have to.

When your opponent begins to get a little annoyed that you pull away, he'll often try to keep you grounded, and this is where most errors happen on his part.

My post did come off as too ****y though. Bb in bjj are much better than me at bjj. Also, I meant to say that I sometimes tap Black belts, but that more often than not I wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that I roll with---and I don't roll with only black belts).

[Old Noob]

I may not touch on everything but I'll touch on a few topics in depth;)



Now we are speaking the same language. What are the core principles of shaolin do? For instance the core principles in CLF are as follows

The Ten Elements
the ten elements are 10 concepts based on different types of movement. These translate into different types of strikes. the elements are kum,chuen na, gwa, sau, chop, pow, kup, biu, ding, jong

10 elements with names and chinese characters
http://youtu.be/uuTBbKucwdI

another video of ten elements with view of the leg and footwork
http://youtu.be/_hn-nR6juC4

The 5 Kicks
same as the elements but for the lower body. The kicks are dik(or dan), chang, so, chou, tan
http://youtu.be/dHpOkkG7kL4

Gate theory
Dividing the opponents body up into sections to determine which angle is best to attack with what element or kick given the circumstance.

Asterisk footwork
or bagua footwork if you want to sound esoteric. refers to 8 different directions in which you can step invasively or evasively depending on the situation.

These concepts form the basis for the entire CLF system. The physical structure and strategies employed by a CLF practitioner supports the use of these concepts. The concepts come before the forms, the forms were created to be examples of these concepts employed in different circumstances. It's the same for any system of TCMA. Hung Kuen for instance has the 12 bridges, 5 elements etc. Taichi has peng, liu, ji, an, li, tsai, shou,cao etc. mantis likewise has its own concepts.

My question was how does a system like shaolin do that is a collection of systems ,regardless of how they obtained them, combine the concepts of many systems together in a way that makes sense. The physical design of these systems are meant to support the underlying concepts. If you mix them haphazardly you may actually make the system less effecient at appying the concepts and stratagies it was originally inteneded to use.


As for CMA kick fests, that is more an issue of lack of understanding the use of the underlying concepts that causes that. It is important to develop a systematic and organized approach to teaching martial skills that reinforce the use of our respective systems. I wrote about the systematic approach at length on a blog article of mine that you can read here http://hungsingmartialarts.blogspot.com/2012/10/martial-arts-forms-application-static.html

I also made a video as an exaple of some of the progression in drilling we use. If you watch you can see the concepts listed above being implemented in the drilling and limited sparring being done in the video
http://youtu.be/bXXI9T-tGSE

I am very much against the hit or miss teaching method as well as technique overload you mentioned. My personal experience has shown that a few concepts learned well through a systematic approach will serve you better than a general overview of alot of techniques. You mentioned it took 4 or 5 years to learn how to use the takedowns you learned well. With a more systemized approach it should have taken very little time.

For instance I trained a student who had no previous martial arts experience to compete in the legends of kung fu sanda tournament in 6 months time. we drilled only the clf concepts listed above with an emphasis on invasive side step with kup (an overhand swinging punch). below is video of his 2 fights. His first opponent was a fellow clf practitioner with 11yrs experience to his 6 months in this match my student is in red headgear. The 2nd opponent I'm not sure in this match my student is in black headgear. i also want to state that he was completely gassed in the 2nd match as he had to fight the 2 matches back to back. My students lack of ring expeience shows here but even with the nerves etc that come with that you can still see the concepts listed above being applied. http://youtu.be/P7OdDjZ0a50

Wanted to bump this primarily to thank you for your attempt at real conversation. I don't have much to offer over what was said by meecer and JP but I agree that our foundations are in our short forms and sparring techniques and the repetitive drilling of those techniques finds its way into the forms that SD has from other systems, which I think, as JP said, probably affects how those forms look - its the form but the principles seem of for the style the form comes from.

One observation about the training vids you put up and I want to emphasize that I am not being critical: Your drills were excellent and I think, like meecer, that progressive drilling would be a great thing to add. But, when you started free sparring, I didn't see alot of those combinations expressed; it devolved back to one or two punches and withdrawal. Also, the stance and hand position changed dramatically (hands lowered significantly) and, at the end of the day, your light sparring looked almost identical to the light sparring we do at my school.

I have a theory for why this is. Your drills train with the head as the primary target. Not the only target but the primary one. When you move to sparring, you seem to follow the rules that most non MMA schools follow (except for Kyokoshin and a few others); medium contact to the body and none to the head. Thus all the techniques you just spent time drilling are exchanged for lowered hands and gut shots. And since you don't drill as many awesome body shots and how to punch to the body while keeping your hands up, the people free sparring never look as competent as they did in the drills. I think this is a real dilemna for the casual martial artist, whether they are karate, TKD, CMA, or whatever. If you don't spar with heavy contact and good speed, and head contact, then your application of your material is always going to be lacking when judged by someone who does train in that method. I think this is one of the big reasons MMA advocates justifiably criticize traditional MAs. On the other hand, training in a striking art with that kind of realism really kicks up the injury ratio and also shrinks the pool of your potential customers.

This is also why the grappling belts tend to mean more. Most grappling arts practice at full resistance in addition to drills from day one. It's just logical that application of techniqes trained at full resistance is going to be better.

Any way I'm rambling but thank you for your post and your willingness to have substantive conversations.

[Old Noob]

I think its true and fair criticism of SD that belts are pretty much and indicator of what your forms you've memorized. I'm not even sure that it's a indicator of the number of forms you do well. And its most definitely not an indicator of your martial prowess. Certainly, the range of skill among black belts in my school is broad and there are a couple who I would not want representing the overall quality of the school. There are others, though, that I'd put up with any other martial artist I've met.

[RJ797]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

[MasterKiller]

also, i meant to say that i sometimes tap black belts, but that more often than not i wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that i roll with---and i don't roll with only black belts).

bullsh1t alert

[sean_stonehart]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

Dear God no... I'm a bit brash & such at times, but stupid... no. I'm not stupid.

[Judge Pen]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

I agree with your post 100%. However, isn't there the argument to be made that Mike Reid is unique in that he was a professional athlete with obviously superior talents that go beyond his training or understanding of SD? I think that's one of the reasons that Master Reid's ability is so easily discounted by these detractors.

I will add this. I detest the lies that have been told in SD also. But I woudn't take me, Bruce and Sean against Master Mullins either. Maybe that's a misplaced respect for my former teacher, but I respect his ability based on my own experiences. If those that saw him on tape were not impressed, then nothing in SD would impress you (which I guess is their point all along). But I've sparred Master Garry a dozen times and I don't think I would last long if he intended harm. I've felt that way with others outside of SD as well.

And you're right about Bruce. I played pushing hands with him once and knew quickly that I was outmatched.

[pazman]

So you have 2 new students. One a fit, natural athlete. The other is 40 lbs overweight with a hip problem. They progress through the rank system together. Both receive bb's. The athlete does not look much better than when he started, however looks phenomenal in every thing he does. The overweight guy has lost the weight, improved tremendously, but still looks a little sloppy in his technique due to hip issues. So based on work and effort, who deserves the rank more?

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

[Syn7]

Don't fight bjj on its own terms. Use your wrestling, be careful, and don't reach for openings. I'm not talking competition here, where someone has to win. I'm talking straight rolling. If you can pull back to your feet, you should, rather than pursuing a better bb through his rolls. Its not easy, and sometimes this is where i get tapped, but i can and do escape if i dont like where a seasion on the fround is going. Too many people play by expectation, and stay committed to the ground when they don't have to.

When your opponent begins to get a little annoyed that you pull away, he'll often try to keep you grounded, and this is where most errors happen on his part.

My post did come off as too ****y though. Bb in bjj are much better than me at bjj. Also, I meant to say that I sometimes tap Black belts, but that more often than not I wind up in draws when it's not a tap (with those that I roll with---and I don't roll with only black belts).

I think you missed the point, man.

[Syn7]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.


The one with the skill deserves it. The other guy gets a big thumbs up for effort, but no belt. Giving unearned ranks is irresponsible and dangerous. Not only that, but for every bullsh1t belt you give out, you weaken the system as a whole.

[RJ797]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

But you both graduated and got your diplomas right?

[Syn7]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

Nice analogy.

So how long do you think it will take some apologist to come out with the word "curve"? :rolleyes:

[RJ797]

Personally, I think Garry Mullins is the best martial artist in SD.

Years ago I “rolled” a little bit with Gary Grooms and he was the most explosive person I have ever seen. Even though Grooms could deal with Bruce and most everyone else, he was very clear that he was no match for Garry Mullins.

[pazman]

But you both graduated and got your diplomas right?

The math wiz graduated with honors in Mathematics and went on to grad school. He probably throws money at strippers in his spare time these days.

I use my spare time to post on KFM forums.:(

[Shaolindynasty]

One observation about the training vids you put up and I want to emphasize that I am not being critical: Your drills were excellent and I think, like meecer, that progressive drilling would be a great thing to add. But, when you started free sparring, I didn't see alot of those combinations expressed; it devolved back to one or two punches and withdrawal. Also, the stance and hand position changed dramatically (hands lowered significantly) and, at the end of the day, your light sparring looked almost identical to the light sparring we do at my school.


Actually there was no free sparring in the video i posted. What you are refering to as free sparring is actually a another drill we do coined "chop choi sparring". This drill is designed as a way to bridge between static and live drilling into free sparring. In that drill we limit the techniques used to chop (see the 10 elements video), rear hand straight(cross) and lam choi which is a swinging punch to the body. Also that video was filmed on one training day and those drill were chosen for that particular session. Many drills we do have an emphasis on contination but that continuation of technique can only be executed if the positioning and timing is correct. Whenever you drill or spar with a person attempting to stop you from gaining position much of the round will be 1 or 2 shots at a time as both parties are attempting to create an opening to find the right position to let combinations loose. We could force the issue and stand toe to toe and trade punches but that would defeat the purpose of this particular exercise. here is footage of the same drill while training at my sifus school with a little higher level of contact and more combos http://youtu.be/syxf4EEAIGE

Which brings me to this



I have a theory for why this is. Your drills train with the head as the primary target. Not the only target but the primary one. When you move to sparring, you seem to follow the rules that most non MMA schools follow (except for Kyokoshin and a few others); medium contact to the body and none to the head. Thus all the techniques you just spent time drilling are exchanged for lowered hands and gut shots. And since you don't drill as many awesome body shots and how to punch to the body while keeping your hands up, the people free sparring never look as competent as they did in the drills. I think this is a real dilemna for the casual martial artist, whether they are karate, TKD, CMA, or whatever. If you don't spar with heavy contact and good speed, and head contact, then your application of your material is always going to be lacking when judged by someone who does train in that method. I think this is one of the big reasons MMA advocates justifiably criticize traditional MAs. On the other hand, training in a striking art with that kind of realism really kicks up the injury ratio and also shrinks the pool of your potential customers.


alot of things not correct in this theory you presented. The first and most obvious to me when first reading this is the assumtion that we dont engage in heavy contact free sparring. Anyone who knows me or my sifus school would laugh at this assumption. we have participated regularly since 1999 in full contact sanda competition, we would have started sooner but we didnt have a school before then. In order to be competitiove in sanda you have to spar. Yet I dont expect you to take my word for it so let me provide you with more video footage of some of the free sparring that takes place at my school and my sifus school.

One example here of free sparring we do. The guy with the shirt practices CLF so you can see him demonstrait the concepts in my initial post. No shirt is a Ving Tsun practitioner
http://youtu.be/i6BxUFlx1ZE

round 2
http://youtu.be/SnAdOaCLBQk

In regards to your "awesome body shot" comment

video of me using various training methods to develop my striking, take note that the majority of the punches thrown are body shots during the heavy bag work. Also notice where I carry my hands. When fighting we favor leading with the chop choi by holding the lead hand where I do I can throw the chop without any kind of prep or telegraphing. The rear hand is held high to protect my head. This is the same hand position I used in the other video I posted

http://youtu.be/aytjXyZUb8Q

also here is another video taken at my sifus school of guys training. notice the body shots BTW, this video also has some footage of free sparring

http://youtu.be/7gjGCHY0Svc

btw, notice the use of the clf 10 elements used with boxing gloves on

As a final note I should say that while we occasionally spar full contact for the most part we check our power as frequent full contact sparring can have long lasting detrimental effects. If you want to develop your power hit the bag. Sparring is meant to teach timing, distance, set up etc.

Or you can choose to fight full contact which we do

There are hours of footage proving what we do and the effects of it. Just search Ng family martial arts and our videos pop up whether from my sifus school or affiliates based around chicago and illinois

As you can see with the actual evidence provided that your hypothosis is incorrect

[Judge Pen]

Personally, I think Garry Mullins is the best martial artist in SD.

Years ago I “rolled” a little bit with Gary Grooms and he was the most explosive person I have ever seen. Even though Grooms could deal with Bruce and most everyone else, he was very clear that he was no match for Garry Mullins.

I've always had the respect for Garry Mullins because he and his sons were my teachers once I moved to Tennessee, but I was also impressed with Master Nance, Mignonge, Grooms and Reid once I had an opportuity to see them in person. It took that type of experience (it's easier to discount someone on video). Honestly, I was never impressed with Gary Grooms until I met the man in person. His personality was still a little off-putting, but I recognized he had some skill behind it.

When I trained in SD, I would have frank conversations about the declining standards in advancement. There were people being advanced, even to the rank of "master" that I had a hard time believing they were as skilled as the people that came before them. I struggled with the idea of advancing to 5th myself because I didn't meet the expectation that I had of someone of that level. I stopped training before that issue became ripe.

[GeneChing]

He probably throws money at strippers in his spare time these days.

I use my spare time to post on KFM forums.:( In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure there's much difference... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

shaolindynasty,

What was the experience level of your student versus the Ving Tsun student?

[Shaolindynasty]

What was the experience level of your student versus the Ving Tsun student?

Actually he is my sifus student. his experience level was around 1 year at the time that was filmed. He was in chicago for school, hes from france. recently he came back for a month to train with us so hes in some of the other vids I posted that were filmed last aug-sept

[JSE]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.

I cant disagree with that.

The reason for the example I gave is because of the discussion of skill perceived from a video and relation to effort put in to achieve rank.

[Judge Pen]

Actually he is my sifus student. his experience level was around 1 year at the time that was filmed. He was in chicago for school, hes from france. recently he came back for a month to train with us so hes in some of the other vids I posted that were filmed last aug-sept
With that years’ experience, would you characterize him as "beginner" or "intermediate"? I never trained or fought under SanDa rules. Why no kicks or takedowns? Do you find the rules encourage western boxing techniques over some of the more traditional hand techniques?

[Shaolindynasty]

With that years’ experience, would you characterize him as "beginner" or "intermediate"? I never trained or fought under SanDa rules. Why no kicks or takedowns? Do you find the rules encourage western boxing techniques over some of the more traditional hand techniques?

The sparring clf vs ving tsun video I provided was not "sanda" rules sparring but rather they were using traditional kungfu techniques specifically clf and vt. I am assuming since I was not present at the filming of this session that they agreed on no takedowns because the mats arent present. As for kicking, i dont know if that was an agreed upon before hand but given the specialty of clf and vt being southern kung fu systems kicking isnt our specialty anyway so you wont see it as often in our sparring.

I tend to not characterize students as beginner advanced etc.

[Judge Pen]

The sparring clf vs ving tsun video I provided was not "sanda" rules sparring but rather they were using traditional kungfu techniques specifically clf and vt. I am assuming since I was not present at the filming of this session that they agreed on no takedowns because the mats arent present. As for kicking, i dont know if that was an agreed upon before hand but given the specialty of clf and vt being southern kung fu systems kicking isnt our specialty anyway so you wont see it as often in our sparring.

I tend to not characterize students as beginner advanced etc.

I understand. I wasn't trying to be critical; I was just trying to get a feel for where they would be in their training and skill and under what rule limitations they were under. You see that "exploratory jab" a lot in sparring even though it's not something you see in forms or drills as often so I was curious about that and the lack of kicks. They are not bad clips, but I didn't expect them to be advanced students from what I saw.

[Old Noob]

Actually there was no free sparring in the video i posted. What you are refering to as free sparring is actually a another drill we do coined "chop choi sparring". This drill is designed as a way to bridge between static and live drilling into free sparring. In that drill we limit the techniques used to chop (see the 10 elements video), rear hand straight(cross) and lam choi which is a swinging punch to the body. Also that video was filmed on one training day and those drill were chosen for that particular session. Many drills we do have an emphasis on contination but that continuation of technique can only be executed if the positioning and timing is correct. Whenever you drill or spar with a person attempting to stop you from gaining position much of the round will be 1 or 2 shots at a time as both parties are attempting to create an opening to find the right position to let combinations loose. We could force the issue and stand toe to toe and trade punches but that would defeat the purpose of this particular exercise. here is footage of the same drill while training at my sifus school with a little higher level of contact and more combos http://youtu.be/syxf4EEAIGE

Which brings me to this



alot of things not correct in this theory you presented. The first and most obvious to me when first reading this is the assumtion that we dont engage in heavy contact free sparring. Anyone who knows me or my sifus school would laugh at this assumption. we have participated regularly since 1999 in full contact sanda competition, we would have started sooner but we didnt have a school before then. In order to be competitiove in sanda you have to spar. Yet I dont expect you to take my word for it so let me provide you with more video footage of some of the free sparring that takes place at my school and my sifus school.

One example here of free sparring we do. The guy with the shirt practices CLF so you can see him demonstrait the concepts in my initial post. No shirt is a Ving Tsun practitioner
http://youtu.be/i6BxUFlx1ZE

round 2
http://youtu.be/SnAdOaCLBQk

In regards to your "awesome body shot" comment

video of me using various training methods to develop my striking, take note that the majority of the punches thrown are body shots during the heavy bag work. Also notice where I carry my hands. When fighting we favor leading with the chop choi by holding the lead hand where I do I can throw the chop without any kind of prep or telegraphing. The rear hand is held high to protect my head. This is the same hand position I used in the other video I posted

http://youtu.be/aytjXyZUb8Q

also here is another video taken at my sifus school of guys training. notice the body shots BTW, this video also has some footage of free sparring

http://youtu.be/7gjGCHY0Svc

btw, notice the use of the clf 10 elements used with boxing gloves on

As a final note I should say that while we occasionally spar full contact for the most part we check our power as frequent full contact sparring can have long lasting detrimental effects. If you want to develop your power hit the bag. Sparring is meant to teach timing, distance, set up etc.

Or you can choose to fight full contact which we do

There are hours of footage proving what we do and the effects of it. Just search Ng family martial arts and our videos pop up whether from my sifus school or affiliates based around chicago and illinois

As you can see with the actual evidence provided that your hypothosis is incorrect

Thank you. Good post. Good points.

[brucereiter]

This contention that there isn’t a single skilled martial artist in SD doesn’t hold water. No video will ever be accepted as proof. Whatever is posted would be instantly criticized as willing opponents, staged, unskilled opponents, etc.

blanket statements are often inaccurate. most of the people who criticize will be anonymous randoms. they frustrate me.





Do those of you who insist no one in SD could possibly fight have some evidence to back that up? Bruce has been all over the world and will “roll” with anyone. There may not be many people here that have worked with Bruce - but there are a lot on RSF. Does someone have a story of easily defeating him?

having the opportunity to compare the methods i was learning in sd with what people from all over the world from various styles first hand was very helpful to my development as a martial artist.



Mike Reid has been teaching down in Atlanta for almost 20 years. Do any of you have a story of being vastly physically superior to him? Keep in mind that both Bruce and Sean are ex-SD guys who have nothing but disdain for Sin The and the lies he told. However, I’ll guess that neither one of them (probably even both at the same time) would think they would last long with Mike Reid.

i have learned quit a lot from mike reid. he was very generous with spending time helping me understand ima. i have nothing but respect for mike reid as a martial artist and as a person. if a person thinks mike reid is not a skilled martial artist and has nothing to offer it is their loss. i dont think he cares and i dont really care.

[tattooedmonk]

That's not how rank works.

When I was in university, I took "Calculus 2". I am not natural math guy. I'm pretty sure I worked harder than the math wiz. I earned a B, the math wiz earned an A. Do you think the professor should have given me an A for my hard work?

Though I didn't receive A, I would say it benefited me much more. The discipline and ethic I developed in that class were much more useful to me in the workplace.

Ranks and grades are meant to be an objective indicator of skill.Using this same logic :rolleyes:...everyone should fail unless they get A s in school?...most people that take martial arts are at best a "C or " D student....a very small percent get B s and A s in school....most people quit.

Not everyone is going to be a performer fighter or more than a hobbiest at martial arts. Most people do it for social and health reasons and like the idea of learning fighting techniques.

I can guarantee that more than 90% of all the keyboard warriors around here couldn't do much better than the 7 year old yellow belt or the autistic kid thats 15 years old and has black belt.who's mom posted a form on YouTube ...etc

I could go on but I am bored of this thread and non sense