Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Personally, I think Garry Mullins is the best martial artist in SD.

Years ago I “rolled” a little bit with Gary Grooms and he was the most explosive person I have ever seen. Even though Grooms could deal with Bruce and most everyone else, he was very clear that he was no match for Garry Mullins.I will add a plus one here. Don't mess with the Mullins :D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

That none of these trolls have walked into any CSC / SD school and said or done anything thst they say they would do.....There are locations everywhere, in almost every major state...come on chumps , show SD and the cult followers what's up, f ing douche bags.

[tattooedmonk]

For all of you that sent me requests ....I will start sending those out this weekend. Thanks for all the responses. I can't wait to start talking about the material ....finally.

[pazman]

Using this same logic :rolleyes:...everyone should fail unless they get A s in school?...most people that take martial arts are at best a "C or " D student....a very small percent get B s and A s in school....most people quit.

Not everyone is going to be a performer fighter or more than a hobbiest at martial arts. Most people do it for social and health reasons and like the idea of learning fighting techniques.

I can guarantee that more than 90% of all the keyboard warriors around here couldn't do much better than the 7 year old yellow belt or the autistic kid thats 15 years old and has black belt.who's mom posted a form on YouTube ...etc

I could go on but I am bored of this thread and non sense

I think you misunderstood...ranks are not indicators of hard work, a rank in martial arts denotes some minimal standard which the organization has chosen. I could care less what the organization chooses. "Shodan" denotes that the person is no longer a beginner.

My concern was with the "who deserves it more" thing.

[tattooedmonk]

I think you misunderstood...ranks are not indicators of hard work, a rank in martial arts denotes some minimal standard which the organization has chosen. I could care less what the organization chooses. "Shodan" denotes that the person is no longer a beginner.

My concern was with the "who deserves it more" thing.Ok, got it. Thanks for clarification. There are standards, very low ones. It keeps the doors open. I think that you can/ do have various grades of lower ranks and black belts....for instance, yellow belt a grade , yellow belt b grade , yellow belt c grade...Most people pay , are taught material, work hard in class, but barely remember from session to session. they keep showing up week after week and month year after year....they pay your rent! you really don't just reward them with rank for time and effort in the martial arts , you are rewarding them for the time and effort outside of class too. That the difference between chain /strip mall schools and small / or fighting schools. Everyone's trying to judge them on qualities these schools and student aren't really getting or really want or need. I don't think these people understand that martial arts now a days is a business first and foremost....as long as you teach the basics of martial arts , show how to apply principles in any given situation, and do your best to provide them with the tools necessary, the rest is up to them.....you can't ask for more than that from the masses.



Sorry everyone...... I am feeling punchy, getting railroaded in a divorce.:cool:

[Snipsky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d1xQEdQ

:confused::confused::confused:

[Snipsky]

That none of these trolls have walked into any CSC / SD school and said or done anything thst they say they would do.....There are locations everywhere, in almost every major state...come on chumps , show SD and the cult followers what's up, f ing douche bags.

you're doing a lot of talking. i can see you're mad. as you can see, the only ones not upset are the ones who don't practice SD. so far, comparing others to SD, SD is not standing up to the standard of your typical kung fu. i am not impressed at all and would never want to join because of what i see. nothing else.

[tattooedmonk]

you're doing a lot of talking. i can see you're mad. as you can see, the only ones not upset are the ones who don't practice SD. so far, comparing others to SD, SD is not standing up to the standard of your typical kung fu. i am not impressed at all and would never want to join because of what i see. nothing else.
Don't pretend to know me pal. I am pi$$ed, but not about this cr@p. you are right....I plan on going to each of the schools these guys represent and do just that....and not for anything other than to see what you guys are really all about. You can look at my website and tell me what you think. Show up at my door and I call an ambulance and roll your @$$.:D:eek:Btw ...no one has set out to impress you or anyone here.

[Snipsky]

oh ok. hope no one hurts you. :)

[tattooedmonk]

oh ok. hope no one hurts you. :)Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last ....I am a martial artist, getting hurt does tend to go along with the deal. It's not about winning or proving anything more than being able to walk the walk ....ya know?! I am on friendly terms with many martial artist, some more some less skilled than I am , and I am always up for learning something new or a refresher course and I do get schooled daily....it goes along with the life style.:D:cool:

[themeecer]

Ok, fellow SDers... I have a question. If you were only allowed to practice one of our forms for the rest of your life, which one would it be? Basically, I am asking what form of ours do you think is the most important? You would have selective amnesia and only be able to retain one form.

I am racking my brain to answer this myself.

[RJ797]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d1xQEdQ

:confused::confused::confused:

Are you asking why the chain whip demo about 20 minutes in is so much better than the sorry exhibition by hsk's sifu?

[Snipsky]

Are you asking why the chain whip demo about 20 minutes in is so much better than the sorry exhibition by hsk's sifu?

I'm sorry. i don't understand what you mean. i've watched hsk's sifu a few times and there are very little people that are as strong as he is. and nothing from SD can even compare that. sorry, my opinion only.

ok i went back and watch. are you really comparing a very young man to a man in his late 60's?

[Kellen Bassette]

Are you asking why the chain whip demo about 20 minutes in is so much better than the sorry exhibition by hsk's sifu?

You guys were just finally getting a halfway serious discussion going and HSK has left you alone a couple days...you brought what's coming on yourself this time...:eek:

[sean_stonehart]

I'm sorry. i don't understand what you mean. i've watched hsk's sifu a few times and there are very little people that are as strong as he is. and nothing from SD can even compare that. sorry, my opinion only.

ok i went back and watch. are you really comparing a very young man to a man in his late 60's?

Yeah... kinda curious about that myself. There's not a comparison that can accurately be made between the two.

[RJ797]

I'm sorry. i don't understand what you mean. i've watched hsk's sifu a few times and there are very little people that are as strong as he is. and nothing from SD can even compare that. sorry, my opinion only.

You think his chain whip was "strong"?????? The demo at 20 minutes in on the 1993 SD demo was vastly superior.

You need to get out more. I have seen many, many, many more people that are way better than hsk's sifu.

[tattooedmonk]

Are you asking why the chain whip demo about 20 minutes in is so much better than the sorry exhibition by hsk's sifu? right? example...
Regarding the first form, maybe I am wrong, but that looked like someone who appears to be a first black that just learned a fifth to sixth degre black belt drunken form and was asked to do it for fun and not to be judged but to be given the experience of performing and demonstrating a form. There is plenty on here that is better than they will admit. Yeah sure some of it isn't up to par but not everyone does it or can do it at anything beyond an average level. I am always interested in discussing the actual principles and techniques being demonstrated.... Anyone can say aww this sux and turn it off after a couple of seconds and base everything on that time.:rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

You think his chain whip was "strong"?????? The demo at 20 minutes in on the 1993 SD demo was vastly superior.

You need to get out more. I have seen many, many, many more people that are way better than hsk's sifu.

i'm sorry, but i don't see HSK saying his teacher is better than anything or anyone.
i know he is proud of his teacher and compared to his teacher SIN THE isn't even in the same ball park. i admit the whip from the young man was a nicer form than hsk's teacher. but compared to his teacher Sin The's double cane form is laughable at best.

hsk has chosen to leave you guys alone, are you seriously wanting to cause more trouble? didn't he go off too much already?

and, from my point of view, that whip form was INCREDIBLE compared to everything and i mean everything i've seen so far in SD. in most cases the black belts are very white beltish level. not intending to offend, but is true.

[Syn7]

That none of these trolls have walked into any CSC / SD school and said or done anything thst they say they would do.....There are locations everywhere, in almost every major state...come on chumps , show SD and the cult followers what's up, f ing douche bags.


Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.

My door is not always open, but you guys are free to try to kick it in. :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth.

i think this is what many people not understand. come to my house or my teachers school to start trouble someone could get shot. many people learn the hard way. too bad.:(

[tattooedmonk]

Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.

My door is not always open, but you guys are free to try to kick it in. :rolleyes:
Troll alert! Wtf are you talking about!?

[Syn7]

English muther****er! You speak it?


I'm not sure what part was so hard to comprehend?

Wrong quote. But since it was your words back to back, why does this confuse you?




That none of these trolls have walked into any CSC / SD school and said or done anything thst they say they would do.....There are locations everywhere, in almost every major state...come on chumps , show SD and the cult followers what's up, f ing douche bags.

[Syn7]

And who ever said anything about going to an SD class? Who do you think we are? Dumb thugs that wanna go pick on helpless kids? Come on now. Man up son. There will be no fighting. We can settle this with words. With ease.

[bodhi warrior]

Ok, fellow SDers... I have a question. If you were only allowed to practice one of our forms for the rest of your life, which one would it be? Basically, I am asking what form of ours do you think is the most important? You would have selective amnesia and only be able to retain one form.

I am racking my brain to answer this myself.

Let me start with what I've learned. I have all material up to black plus black tigers, Hiangs 4 mantis sets, and a few post black weapons, taichi 64, jiangs pa kua, hsing ie.
But to pick one form is tough. I suppose my one form would be jiangs(classical) pa kua.
It's so deep.
But I must say the 30 short forms are great too. Love doing them with a weight vest, ankle and hand weights.

[themeecer]

Let me start with what I've learned. I have all material up to black plus black tigers, Hiangs 4 mantis sets, and a few post black weapons, taichi 64, jiangs pa kua, hsing ie.
But to pick one form is tough. I suppose my one form would be jiangs(classical) pa kua.
It's so deep.
But I must say the 30 short forms are great too. Love doing them with a weight vest, ankle and hand weights.

You know .. the 30 short forms keep popping up in my mind as well. Talk about a cardiovascular workout (when done correctly) and some solid techniques.

These may be GMT's crowning achievement. We have been told since day one that he assembled these forms (court case be darned).

[brucereiter]

Ok, fellow SDers... I have a question. If you were only allowed to practice one of our forms for the rest of your life, which one would it be? Basically, I am asking what form of ours do you think is the most important? You would have selective amnesia and only be able to retain one form.

I am racking my brain to answer this myself.

For me yang 64 is the most important form/style.

[Leto]

Ok, fellow SDers... I have a question. If you were only allowed to practice one of our forms for the rest of your life, which one would it be? Basically, I am asking what form of ours do you think is the most important? You would have selective amnesia and only be able to retain one form.

I am racking my brain to answer this myself.

This is a hard question! I am not a "SD'er" anymore, or more accurately a former "CSC'er". Out of what I learned I still practice the short forms, lower belt and brown belt forms, black tigers, tai chi 24 and 37(64), Jiang bagua, xingyi elements and linkage, shaolin five animal form, mantis zhai yao (aka zhai shua) quan, and stone monkey (shi hou yi shou). If I could only remember one single thing out of those, I'd have to pick either 37 posture taijiquan or bagua. If I was allowed to remember things I learned from outside SD/CSC in addition to the one SD form, it would be Jiang's bagua, because I also know the 108(or 103, or 88)yang style taijiquan form. If the one SD form is the only martial art I get to practice ever again, it would be yang 37 taijiquan. Though I would practice it the correct way, not the way I was taught originally at CSC. I think the internal arts in general are the most valuable thing taught there, though they need to be heavily corrected. If I have to take the internal arts exactly as they are taught in SD without outside correction, I would skip them and take the black tigers instead. They have a great variety of techniques, ground skills, and have the potential for unique expression. There may be as much Java in those forms as Shaolin, and I think that's cool.

[Judge Pen]

You know .. the 30 short forms keep popping up in my mind as well. Talk about a cardiovascular workout (when done correctly) and some solid techniques.

These may be GMT's crowning achievement. We have been told since day one that he assembled these forms (court case be darned).

Short forms are excellent. Excellent cardio with all the fundamental technique that anyone would ever need. The case can be made that it doesn't teach transitional movement, but I don't think the are looking very hard. Whether these forms are a distilled version of the 108 lohan or they sprang out of Sin The's mind and imagination, it is good material and material I plan on teaching my own children to introduce them to the basics of the art.

But I'm going to call you out too. I agree from hat we were told the short form was assembled by Sin The, but it was out of the 108 lo han. The deposition said that he knew of a legend of the 108 Lo Han but that no one knew that material, or had even seen it, and he created this from scratch. These are two different things. Still nice materal though.

[Judge Pen]

A lot of posting on a Friday night? Anyone have a life or a family?

[Leto]

A lot of posting on a Friday night? Anyone have a life or a family?

have a 13 hour night shift, and not a lot to do

[sean_stonehart]

You think his chain whip was "strong"?????? The demo at 20 minutes in on the 1993 SD demo was vastly superior.

You need to get out more. I have seen many, many, many more people that are way better than hsk's sifu.

You understand the differences between a single nine section whip & double three section whips, correct?

You understand they are different creatures entirely, correct?

Hate to say it, but apparently not.

[Judge Pen]

You understand the differences between a single nine section whip & double three section whips, correct?

You understand they are different creatures entirely, correct?

Hate to say it, but apparently not.

Yeah they are apples and oranges plus the age of Dino vs. the age of Barry in those videos makes a difference too. Trying to disparage Frank's teacher isn't going to get us anywhere. The guy is the real deal.

[Empty_Cup]

For all of you that sent me requests ....I will start sending those out this weekend. Thanks for all the responses. I can't wait to start talking about the material ....finally.

Count me in as well

[tattooedmonk]

And who ever said anything about going to an SD class? Who do you think we are? Dumb thugs that wanna go pick on helpless kids? Come on now. Man up son. There will be no fighting. We can settle this with words. With ease.

No you are just an idiot. It's martial arts, it comes down to what works, not all this cr@p you all are talking about. It time to put up or shut up, moron. Instead of talking sh!t here, why not prove what you are saying!?dumb@$$

[tattooedmonk]

i'm sorry, but i don't see HSK saying his teacher is better than anything or anyone.
i know he is proud of his teacher and compared to his teacher SIN THE isn't even in the same ball park. i admit the whip from the young man was a nicer form than hsk's teacher. but compared to his teacher Sin The's double cane form is laughable at best.

hsk has chosen to leave you guys alone, are you seriously wanting to cause more trouble? didn't he go off too much already?

and, from my point of view, that whip form was INCREDIBLE compared to everything and i mean everything i've seen so far in SD. in most cases the black belts are very white beltish level. not intending to offend, but is true.wheres your videos @$$ wipe!? Troll

[tattooedmonk]

Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.

My door is not always open, but you guys are free to try to kick it in. :rolleyes:
If you are on here talking cr@p to people and you belong to a school or run a school:rolleyes: then you are asking for people to come in and kick your @$$. I am not talking about going to people houses where they live in their mothers basement playing martial artist on the internet. I am talking about going into your school and kicking the cra@p out of whomever needs it. Anyone!? I belong to a legit school and run one as well. Step up , step off , or get stepped on!

[Judge Pen]

TTM, everything that Gene said about Frank applies to the way you are acting now.

[tattooedmonk]

Defending yourself when being attacked is justifiable,.... I get it. I haven't read all the post by gene or frank .

[Snipsky]

There is a difference
Defending yourself when being attacked is justifiable,.... I get it.

i have to say YOU TT are the one who came into this thread acting all tough and hard. i will state here that is was YOU that went on the offensive first. the others just played along with you.

[tattooedmonk]

i have to say YOU TT are the one who came into this thread acting all tough and hard. i will state here that is was YOU that went on the offensive first. the others just played along with you.

Obviously you are blind and can not read. It's ok, I already know you are an idiot.

[Snipsky]

Obviously you are blind and can not read. It's ok, I already know you are an idiot.

did your mother teach you to act like this? i didn't say anything negative to you like you just did to me. still, i will show YOU i am the bigger man and won't stoop, yes stoop, DOWN to your level. you're a very bitter boy.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, everything that Gene said about Frank applies to the way you are acting now.
Still trying to figure out why it that you pick me out of the group to try and make an example. I like how it is everyone can say whatever but we have to be nice all the time. Whatever stop being so politically correct all the time, it gets annoying:D:cool:

[Snipsky]

Still trying to figure out why it that you pick me out of the group to try and make an example. I like how it is everyone can say whatever but we have to be nice all the time. Whatever stop being so politically correct all the time, it gets annoying

n you still have to ask who is blind?

[Judge Pen]

Still trying to figure out why it that you pick me out of the group to try and make an example. I like how it is everyone can say whatever but we have to be nice all the time. Whatever stop being so politically correct all the time, it gets annoying:D:cool:

It's not being politically correct. It's about having civil conversations even when we disagree. Going around talking about kicking the crap out of people only undermines any legitimacy of any points you have made in the past or are trying to make now. If you want people to take you seriously, then you speak with authority and don't threaten every internet troll that tries to bait you.

[tattooedmonk]

It's not being politically correct. It's about having civil conversations even when we disagree. Going around talking about kicking the crap out of people only undermines any legitimacy of any points you have made in the past or are trying to make now. If you want people to take you seriously, then you speak with authority and don't threaten every internet troll that tries to bait you.

That's not what I was saying.... I have attempted to have civil conversations and you know it.

[tattooedmonk]

did your mother teach you to act like this? i didn't say anything negative to you like you just did to me. still, i will show YOU i am the bigger man and won't stoop, yes stoop, DOWN to your level. you're a very bitter boy.

You stick your nose in conversation that you don't belong then you wonder why you get punched in the nose. :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

You stick your nose in conversation that you don't belong then you wonder why you get punched in the nose.

is that what you did? punch me in the nose? really? i bet you have a tiny peenus.

[tattooedmonk]

Just keep trolling.... :rolleyes:

[Snipsky]

Just keep trolling.

as long as you keep acting like a jerk, sure...no problema.

[tattooedmonk]

as long as you keep acting like a jerk, sure...no problema.
You are trolling anyway...it's just who you are.

[brucereiter]

For those of you who have at any time trained sd/csc and practice "yang 64" tai chi chuan, it would be interesting to see a video of you doing section 1 of yang tai chi chuan. Will you post a video and have a discussion about the form as you understand it. Mine are linked below.

[Judge Pen]

That's not what I was saying.... I have attempted to have civil conversations and you know it.

I know you have. And it's easy to let things get to us and threaten to punch people in the nose too. That's all I'm saying; keep your cool and it helps your argument. Lose your cool and lose credibility.

[tattooedmonk]

I know you have. And it's easy to let things get to us and threaten to punch people in the nose too. That's all I'm saying; keep your cool and it helps your argument. Lose your cool and lose credibility.
Thanks. :D Btw I am working on our new forum . It will be up and running by Christmas. You are invited. Send me an email address if you would like to join.:D:cool:

[Syn7]

Defending yourself when being attacked is justifiable,.... I get it. I haven't read all the post by gene or frank .

No, you're just a weak little man who can't handle being told something he doesn't like hearing. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. Look at ya, you're buggin out over dumb ****. You're acting like a spoiled little brat. Nobody is going to travel just to swat you in the mouth. You overestimate your importance in this world, squirt. Like I said before, you are free to come and try, but don't expect some sort of honor match.

[tattooedmonk]

No, you're just a weak little man who can't handle being told something he doesn't like hearing. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. Look at ya, you're buggin out over dumb ****. You're acting like a spoiled little brat. Nobody is going to travel just to swat you in the mouth. You overestimate your importance in this world, squirt. Like I said before, you are free to come and try, but don't expect some sort of honor match.
What I have been displeased with is your lack of knowledge in the subject you are discussing and that say nothing of value in your defense when called on it. You are an troll here, nothing more . You are just as guilty as anyone, let's just leave it at that.

[kwaichang]

You guys are talking so much smak it isnt even humerous any more. No one who is a real MA would say they will shoot some one about a Challenge match. In the past one would be honor bound to accept a challenge match. and it was known there was no holds barred. With out even saying it. So I guess now all people want to do is talk smak. Back when Challenge matches were taken seriously one didnt throw it out there unless they meant it. Sort of like if you draw a sword you have to use it so you dont draw it unless you meant to. No Honor or real pride in ones self any more I guess. KC

[Syn7]

I know you have. And it's easy to let things get to us and threaten to punch people in the nose too.

No, it's not, JP. And you are better than this. For real!
Who threatened him? Who said they are going to go to SD schools and kick some ass? Who? And HSK lives in the same state as TTM. If he was as tough as he wishes he was he would have already been to see HSK.

There are two major diffs between HSK and TTM. First, HSK actually has put in the YEARS of research to know what he's talking about. Second, HSK couldn't care less if you insult HSCLF. He's ****ed coz he feels like he's been ripped off, not talked down to. There is a difference! His way is not my way and yeah, he can be over-reactive, but it doesn't change his facts. TTM is just indignant because he can't handle critique and takes personal offense way too easily.

[Syn7]

What I have been displeased with is your lack of knowledge in the subject you are discussing and that say nothing of value in your defense when called on it. You are an troll here, nothing more . You are just as guilty as anyone, let's just leave it at that.

Sure, but I'm not a spazz. For this I am thankful. I haven't made threats. I haven't made challenges, physical ones anyways. I haven't left posts where I just swear and spazz at somebody and I always come with a point. If that is too much for you, well, then you are an emotional *****.

Think about that before you answer me, son.

[Syn7]

You guys are talking so much smak it isnt even humerous any more. No one who is a real MA would say they will shoot some one about a Challenge match. In the past one would be honor bound to accept a challenge match. and it was known there was no holds barred. With out even saying it. So I guess now all people want to do is talk smak. Back when Challenge matches were taken seriously one didnt throw it out there unless they meant it. Sort of like if you draw a sword you have to use it so you dont draw it unless you meant to. No Honor or real pride in ones self any more I guess. KC

Thats not what I said. Sure, I'll throw on the gloves, why not? 15 years ago I would have met you in the tsreet, crew v crew. Today, I couldn't be bothered. What I DID say was that if you come at me, come hard because winning is my only goal, and will do what i need to do to neutralize any threat. If that means putting putting the roscoe in your mouth, so be it. If all I have to do is lump you out, then that's fine too. **** your honor bound bull****. Honey badger don't care! This is the real world, not some LARPer garbage. You get one shot at it, best to come correct.

I will never EVER travel just to fight somebody a disagree with on the internet. To me, that's just retarded. A geriatric tough guy, nice :rolleyes: You would think at you age you would know better by now. The fact that anyone can rile you up like this over the internet exposes your true colors and your serious lack of self control. Master what? Pulease. You can't even master your impulses, let alone anything else.

Dumb dumb dumb.

somebody quote this.

[themeecer]

somebody quote this.

Syn7 is Dumb dumb dumb. Like that? :)

[themeecer]

I was all ready to come in here and flame you guys but I did tai chi too many times this afternoon and now I just want a hug.

[Snipsky]

I was all ready to come in here and flame you guys but I did tai chi too many times this afternoon and now I just want a hug.

you should be getting hugs from your dating website :):):):):):):)

[themeecer]

Been a long time since then ... been dating a gal an ex introduced me to for a few years. But thanks for the sentiment.

[Judge Pen]

No, it's not, JP. And you are better than this. For real!
Who threatened him? Who said they are going to go to SD schools and kick some ass? Who? And HSK lives in the same state as TTM. If he was as tough as he wishes he was he would have already been to see HSK.

There are two major diffs between HSK and TTM. First, HSK actually has put in the YEARS of research to know what he's talking about. Second, HSK couldn't care less if you insult HSCLF. He's ****ed coz he feels like he's been ripped off, not talked down to. There is a difference! His way is not my way and yeah, he can be over-reactive, but it doesn't change his facts. TTM is just indignant because he can't handle critique and takes personal offense way too easily.

What isn't? That some people can let their emotions get the best of them and start talking about kicking ass? Sure it's easy to do that behind a keyboard, but if you want people to listen to you, that's the wrong approach. And I know Frank knows his stuff and got all riled up about material being stolen, but his anger was mostly misplaced at people who did not participate in the appropriation of the material. And his way of going about it got so childish that Gene stepped in to kindly point that out to him. That's all I did to TTM. Point out that he was being immature in his discourse.

[kwaichang]

You Goobers are a trip, so who said they would shoot someone? wasnt me all I did was point out how pussies try to pride themselves into thinking they have the skill to make some one Mad or upset. How can one derive that from typing , must be psychic I guess . Or in most cases Psychotic. I just said you all talk a good game but few on here are willing to back up what they say. MOst just talk,talk , talk. Like listening to the parents of Charley Brown , whahwhahh whahhh. RealMA would travel all over the country for their honor but as many have said there is no honor these days any more. Too many axcuses and too much HOT AIR. Right Syn 7.

[kwaichang]

Originally Posted by Syn7
Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.


See man just a Liar.

Thats not what I said. Sure, I'll throw on the gloves, why not? 15 years ago I would have met you in the tsreet, crew v crew. Today, I couldn't be bothered. What I DID say was that if you come at me, come hard because winning is my only goal, and will do what i need to do to neutralize any threat. If that means putting putting the roscoe in your mouth, so be it. If all I have to do is lump you out, then that's fine too. **** your honor bound bull****

Not by your self what a chicken **** little *******.

[themeecer]

I really, really hate to agree with these other guys but I don't believe a real martial artist would travel across the country for his 'honor.' Maybe for his bravado, but not his honor. That is why I rolled my eyes at HSK's invite for me to fly to SF.

A martial arts brother of mine gave me a "Master's stick." He does a lot of martial arts inspired paintings and this is a real gem. It has a wrapped handle and red horse hair coming out one end. It has 3 sets of Chinese characters painted on it. The first reads "A good student seeks to subdue their ego." The second, "A good teacher has a subdued ego." The third, "To a master, ego doesn't exist." I am struggling between the second and third.

It angers me to see an art and people I cherish being trashed on these forums. Had some of the things been said in person with the same vitriol as here, I am afraid I might have lost my cool and reacted. But cooler heads prevail when I walk away from these forums. Not only is a cross country trip for a challenge match not worth it, financially, but it is highly foolish. You have no idea what you are walking into. You may be going in there all honor bound and willing to fight 'fair,' your opponent may not. Actually, if your opponent is smart, he would make sure the fight wasn't fair.

[kwaichang]

I dont expect you to understand, the old ways . Those of today do not travel for ego. They travel to test their skill. There is no assumption of "fairness". only that combat would ensue. There is no Ego in what I type or say. That is long gone.
although with age some mellow I have not and having had an injury in the past there is much pent up angst. To hit and be hit is something I miss,greatly. No fear of defeat. and Death is part of the Tao or Way. KC

[Syn7]

Syn7 is Dumb dumb dumb. Like that? :)

Close enough. Bout what I expected.

[Syn7]

Originally Posted by Syn7
Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.


See man just a Liar.

Thats not what I said. Sure, I'll throw on the gloves, why not? 15 years ago I would have met you in the tsreet, crew v crew. Today, I couldn't be bothered. What I DID say was that if you come at me, come hard because winning is my only goal, and will do what i need to do to neutralize any threat. If that means putting putting the roscoe in your mouth, so be it. If all I have to do is lump you out, then that's fine too. **** your honor bound bull****

Not by your self what a chicken **** little *******.


Wow, you even quote it and still don't understand.


"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Oscar Wilde

I said if somebody wants to spar in the ring, sure. Why not? As long as they approach me properly. Otherwise it will get real ugly for you real fast. Anyone who COMES TO ME and acts with any sort of aggression WILL NOT get an honorable match, they will not get a proportional response. They will whatever I think is needed to GUARANTEE that I am the one who walks away from the engagement. I just don't see how that could be more clear?

If JP came to me and said "wanna throw down?" my answer would be sure, let's do it. If you came to my me all angry and asshurt, my answer will be swift, unfair and quite aggressive. I have been consistent all along. I'm nit gonna reiterate all my past statements to put context on my next statements. I expect you to put in the time to understand what you are reading. These assumptions and weak argumenst are why I call you dumb.

You're like a pundit guppy in the spin room picking and choosing select quotes to make a point that isn't true. I can't be bothered to go back and quote my own posts, but it's all there in print for you.

I can take any quote on here and misrepresent it for days. Not something I would consider a skill. Lil kids do it all the time.

[Syn7]

And yeah, when I was young, crew on crew rumbles were all too common and all too stupid. I have the CS# and the scars to show for it. :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

It angers me to see an art and people I cherish being trashed on these forums. Had some of the things been said in person with the same vitriol as here, I am afraid I might have lost my cool and reacted. But cooler heads prevail when I walk away from these forums. Not only is a cross country trip for a challenge match not worth it, financially, but it is highly foolish. You have no idea what you are walking into. You may be going in there all honor bound and willing to fight 'fair,' your opponent may not. Actually, if your opponent is smart, he would make sure the fight wasn't fair.

Well maybe you are just too emotional. When some anon whoever insults me I don't get offended. Infact the only thing that even really annoys me is when people are dumb dumb dumb. Simply coz I hate having to reiterate every single thing to help the simple keep up. Go read my posts then read KC's and tell me he isn't retarded. Have a look, it's all here and I'm happy to stand by my words and clarify anything I may have not expressed well enough for some to understand. Funny how some know exactly what I'm saying and some don't. Hmmm. :rolleyes:

By the way, you CAN'T eliminate your ego. All you can do is harness it to serve a purpose.

[Syn7]

You Goobers are a trip, so who said they would shoot someone? wasnt me all I did was point out how pussies try to pride themselves into thinking they have the skill to make some one Mad or upset. How can one derive that from typing , must be psychic I guess . Or in most cases Psychotic. I just said you all talk a good game but few on here are willing to back up what they say. MOst just talk,talk , talk. Like listening to the parents of Charley Brown , whahwhahh whahhh. RealMA would travel all over the country for their honor but as many have said there is no honor these days any more. Too many axcuses and too much HOT AIR. Right Syn 7.

I **** on your honor. ;) You are fun to have around tho, I'll give you that.

Kisses.

[themeecer]

Well maybe you are just too emotional.

Maybe so.


(10 characters my butt ... I said everything I wanted to in 9 .. stupid forum rules. :) )

[hskwarrior]

I really, really hate to agree with these other guys but I don't believe a real martial artist would travel across the country for his 'honor.' Maybe for his bravado, but not his honor. That is why I rolled my eyes at HSK's invite for me to fly to SF.

lets set something straight. i never challenged anyone. i simply said if you have issues you feel that needed to be handled in a certain way my door is open. i 've always been up front with who i am, my sifu, and school. i open my mouth cause i know i can handle myself. yet, i don't claim to be an elite fighter. i don't even claim to be able to kick anyone ass. but one thing for sure is i am no push over, i can fight, and i stand my ground. win or lose i accept fate.

to the rest, yes i did allow all that shaolin do was about which included certain characters here and jake the fake to keep me a little ****ed off. but after smokin a blunt or 8, i realized most of what goes on here on this forum are just words. my sifu taught me a long time ago words aren't important enough to lose your cool over. so after gene, i realized its time for my eventual disappearance from this forum which has never really been beneficial to me outside my CLF debates over history.

to be honest, nothing really matters. disrespecting my sifu baseless or not, it doesn't bother me. proof is in the pudding regardless of what anyone says with their mouths. i know better than to fall into that. i'm not insecure about myself nor my sifu. and HSK is my character on this forum, those who know me know i don't trip off people like i have been lately.

so i will go smoke another 100 blunts, keep practicing and teaching, & doing it moving.

peace, its been fun.

[themeecer]

peace, its been fun.

Happy training!

[Syn7]

so i will go smoke another 100 blunts, keep practicing and teaching, & doing it moving.

peace, its been fun.

Ahhh, just got me some GK. So far so sweet!

[themeecer]

I dont expect you to understand, the old ways .

I'm ignoring this comment.

[kwaichang]

Syn one of your personalities posted what i quoted , so I guess a barrel to you isnt a Gun. and I imagined it all. One of your split personalities must have Alzeihmers. Cause you make no sense and please quit trying to get people to back you up you are really ****ed up arent you ! KC

[kwaichang]

Meecer you dont have to ignore it. The MA of today are nothing like they used to be. Few if any teachers stress anything other than rank and money and dedication to them. and that is fine but when I started in 71 my teacher taught through other ways and methods and stresed other things, other than Money and Rank.

[kwaichang]

HSK I hate to see you go you were and are one of the few that has something viable to say about MA , except when you are ****ed.

[Syn7]

Maybe so.


(10 characters my butt ... I said everything I wanted to in 9 .. stupid forum rules. :) )

I just use these.....................!

We should all be able to trade barbs and talk about MA's and dumb people without getting mad. I've been called so many things on here, some true some not. Have you ever seen me angry? Leaving a post like " F u man F u, your just and *******"???

No you haven't. Why? Two reasons. One, I have control of these emotions and it takes A LOT to get me to show anger. Two, I simply don't care what anyone here thinks of me. I really don't. I have made friends here, and that's cool, but I care nothing for those who oppose me. It's not that these insults can't be offensive, it's that they can't be offensive coming from you all. Understand?

The only person here fighting for SD that has my respect is JP. And maybe that Sean guy, I like his restraint. Admirable in the face of such criticism. Most of the rest are just crying like lil *****es. That's not the way to make a point unless your point is that you're a whiney lil *****. I'm not saying you are, cause to be quite honest, I don't really read your posts.

[Syn7]

Syn one of your personalities posted what i quoted , so I guess a barrel to you isnt a Gun. and I imagined it all. One of your split personalities must have Alzeihmers. Cause you make no sense and please quit trying to get people to back you up you are really ****ed up arent you ! KC

Wow. Just.... wow.


How did I try to get anyone to back me up? By saying that I'm sure others agree with me? Or was it asking for the quote? And if it was the latter, man you really are the dumbest guy on here. You said you put me on ignore, yet here you are. Sup wit that?

[themeecer]

Meecer you dont have to ignore it. The MA of today are nothing like they used to be. Few if any teachers stress anything other than rank and money and dedication to them. and that is fine but when I started in 71 my teacher taught through other ways and methods and stresed other things, other than Money and Rank.

It was ignored because I've got a few years on my belt as well. I'll always be a lowly student no matter how many stripes I get on my belt, but don't make the assumption that I don't know of the 'old ways.'

[hskwarrior]

HSK I hate to see you go you were and are one of the few that has something viable to say about MA , except when you are ****ed.

thanks. i have a hot temper, its the sicilian in me. my students know it well. lol

i've been here too long, since like 2001. i can't cut it cold turkey its like a real bad habit. LOL.

i'll be lurking. but my bashing shaolin do is over.

[kwaichang]

Well Syn 7 I see the others when they quote you so its hard to ignore I quoted you and bolded it so you would see what you wrote, so when I catch you in a Lie just cant help myself. If calling some one dumb makes you feel smarter then go ahead , I guess you are like a woman who goes out with ugly friends to make you feel prettier.

[Syn7]

You caught me in a lie how? Cause I said that if you come to my house my response will be excessive? Or because I said I would jump in the cage with people who ask me nice? All you did was take something obviously implied and took it litterally purposely avoiding the context in which it was written and ALL my past statements. I have been consistent, you are just too emotional and retarded to see it.

I never once said that if you came to my home that I would jump in the ring with ya.

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Oscar Wilde

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Oscar Wilde

"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant." - Oscar Wilde

[tattooedmonk]

Sure, but I'm not a spazz. For this I am thankful. I haven't made threats. I haven't made challenges, physical ones anyways. I haven't left posts where I just swear and spazz at somebody and I always come with a point. If that is too much for you, well, then you are an emotional *****.

Think about that before you answer me, son.get off your high horse pal., the rodeo is over. You can quit with the cr@p now. I didn't challenge anyone, what I said is put up or shut up. I can't put up videos at this point but I can put up my opinion of how I think pu$$ies like you should be handled. Save your belittling words and condescending remarks for someone else.

[Syn7]

get off your high horse pal., the rodeo is over. You can quit with the cr@p now. I didn't challenge anyone, what I said is put up or shut up. I can't put up videos at this point but I can put up my opinion of how I think pu$$ies like you should be handled. Save your belittling words and condescending remarks for someone else.

Um, no. The rodeo ends when I decide it ends. Proof is in the pudding, son.

And we continue.....

[kwaichang]

Hey man he is he is saving his remarks for me, kuz im dum tee heee. LOL anyway you can win with that goober he cant even read what he said and admit he said it , then when you catch him he uses this context cr@p and says "duh that aint what I said" we call that Dumb as a box of rocks, KC

[Syn7]

Oh and proclaiming you are open to any challenge(which is what "my door is always open" means in this context) is in itself a challenge. You're starting to argue like KC.

[kwaichang]

Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.

My door is not always open, but you guys are free to try to kick it in. :rolleyes:

Here you go Syn 7 what say ye gonna lie again yeah i know context right

[Syn7]

Here you go Syn 7 what say ye gonna lie again yeah i know context right

WTF is wrong with you?


Challenge matches these days on this continent is for retards and insecure twitts. If somebody comes to my house for a fight, I'm not gonna throw hands, I'm gonna put my barrel in their mouth. Come on, get real people. Unless you're prepared to go hard tactical, you guys shouldn't challenge ANYONE you don't know. You wanna fight, get in the cage or join a crew.

My door is not always open, but you guys are free to try to kick it in. :rolleyes:

This is only difficult for you because you are being difficult. Unwilling to back off from a retard statement.

You wanna fight me in a sprting venue? put in a mouthguard.

You come to my house and I'll gut ya. Simple, no?

I'm sure most people here feel that way. SD or otherwise.

[brucereiter]

For those of you who have at any time trained sd/csc and practice "yang 64" tai chi chuan, it would be interesting to see a video of you doing section 1 of yang tai chi chuan. Will you post a video and have a discussion about the form as you understand it. Mine are linked below.

anyone? comments?

[Iron Palm]

Short forms are excellent. Excellent cardio with all the fundamental technique that anyone would ever need. The case can be made that it doesn't teach transitional movement, but I don't think the are looking very hard. Whether these forms are a distilled version of the 108 lohan or they sprang out of Sin The's mind and imagination, it is good material and material I plan on teaching my own children to introduce them to the basics of the art.

But I'm going to call you out too. I agree from hat we were told the short form was assembled by Sin The, but it was out of the 108 lo han. The deposition said that he knew of a legend of the 108 Lo Han but that no one knew that material, or had even seen it, and he created this from scratch. These are two different things. Still nice materal though.

I've known a couple of individuals (who started in sd long before I) to mention that the way the "Lo Han" techniques are currently taught is quite different from the days when GMT taught with his brother. For one, the modern set is apparently much more "linear". Do any of you have any knowledge of this?

I began in 2000 at a "west coast" school and have only ever seen the Lo Hans performed one way. I ask because, as JP and others have astutely pointed out, they seem to form the true foundation for everything else in sd. If there was an original set taught to EML's generation that differs from the current one, it would be interesting to know whether it was something more complete, and possibly truly unique to sd and the original Chung Yen.

[themeecer]

That's correct Iron Palm. The original short forms were like mini-long forms. The few that I learned were about the length of Se Mong Tow Lea.

[shen ku]

that is also the way i have always know it to be said, like very short long forms. I have seen my teacher do a few but i was never taught any that way.

[Judge Pen]

lets set something straight. i never challenged anyone. i simply said if you have issues you feel that needed to be handled in a certain way my door is open. i 've always been up front with who i am, my sifu, and school. i open my mouth cause i know i can handle myself. yet, i don't claim to be an elite fighter. i don't even claim to be able to kick anyone ass. but one thing for sure is i am no push over, i can fight, and i stand my ground. win or lose i accept fate.

to the rest, yes i did allow all that shaolin do was about which included certain characters here and jake the fake to keep me a little ****ed off. but after smokin a blunt or 8, i realized most of what goes on here on this forum are just words. my sifu taught me a long time ago words aren't important enough to lose your cool over. so after gene, i realized its time for my eventual disappearance from this forum which has never really been beneficial to me outside my CLF debates over history.

to be honest, nothing really matters. disrespecting my sifu baseless or not, it doesn't bother me. proof is in the pudding regardless of what anyone says with their mouths. i know better than to fall into that. i'm not insecure about myself nor my sifu. and HSK is my character on this forum, those who know me know i don't trip off people like i have been lately.

so i will go smoke another 100 blunts, keep practicing and teaching, & doing it moving.

peace, its been fun.

That's a lot of blunts. You must be really sick.

[Judge Pen]

I just use these.....................!

We should all be able to trade barbs and talk about MA's and dumb people without getting mad. I've been called so many things on here, some true some not. Have you ever seen me angry? Leaving a post like " F u man F u, your just and *******"???

No you haven't. Why? Two reasons. One, I have control of these emotions and it takes A LOT to get me to show anger. Two, I simply don't care what anyone here thinks of me. I really don't. I have made friends here, and that's cool, but I care nothing for those who oppose me. It's not that these insults can't be offensive, it's that they can't be offensive coming from you all. Understand?

The only person here fighting for SD that has my respect is JP. And maybe that Sean guy, I like his restraint. Admirable in the face of such criticism. Most of the rest are just crying like lil *****es. That's not the way to make a point unless your point is that you're a whiney lil *****. I'm not saying you are, cause to be quite honest, I don't really read your posts.

If I may speak for him, Sean isn't fighting "for" SD. He used to train in SD and though he still respects his teacher and many of his peers, he has no love for Sin The or SD. I'm not really training anymore either. I'm calling things the way I see it, but my persepctive includes 20 years of training in SD and a detest for the lies and tall tales that have been told and the delusions that some in SD still maintain.

[Judge Pen]

Um, no. The rodeo ends when I decide it ends. Proof is in the pudding, son.

And we continue.....

This isn't a rodeo; its a merry-go-round. If you want to stop going in circles, you just get off the ride. I had been off this forum for a long time until Sin The's deposition.

[Judge Pen]

anyone? comments?

I keep meaning to put some videos up, but never seem to get around to it. I did pull some old videos out and started going through them, so it's a start.

[wenshu]

Short forms are excellent. Excellent cardio with all the fundamental technique that anyone would ever need. The case can be made that it doesn't teach transitional movement, but I don't think the are looking very hard. Whether these forms are a distilled version of the 108 lohan or they sprang out of Sin The's mind and imagination, it is good material and material I plan on teaching my own children to introduce them to the basics of the art.

So lets see it.

I can't speak for any of the other detractors but that's all I've really been asking, is that you guys back up your claims about this core of ShaolinDo that somehow justifies all of the other obvious nonsense. If I see something that demonstrates a distinctive unity of style that isn't obvious seminar tai chi or learned from a book then I'll gladly shut the **** up. SHeeeit, maybe I'll even go take a class at a CSC.

I can already tell you what is going to happen. We'll get several pages of a plagiarized dissertation on the nature of Aristotelian Correspondence and then the ShaolinDo peanut gallery will start whining about the lack of decorum while simultaneously making veiled threats of physical violence and the basic request will remain conveniently unaddressed.

[Judge Pen]

I've known a couple of individuals (who started in sd long before I) to mention that the way the "Lo Han" techniques are currently taught is quite different from the days when GMT taught with his brother. For one, the modern set is apparently much more "linear". Do any of you have any knowledge of this?

I began in 2000 at a "west coast" school and have only ever seen the Lo Hans performed one way. I ask because, as JP and others have astutely pointed out, they seem to form the true foundation for everything else in sd. If there was an original set taught to EML's generation that differs from the current one, it would be interesting to know whether it was something more complete, and possibly truly unique to sd and the original Chung Yen.

That would be interesting to see. The old KET tapes (1982 or so) showed "variations" of the sparring techniques, but I don't recall there being a huge variation in the short form. I remember when I started in 1989 I learned the short form slightly different than the way Master Garry and his sons taught. When I asked his oldest son about it, he said "that's the way that it used to be taught, but now it's taugt differently." I don't know if that is a change in the entire system or just from my first teacher to Master Garry. Honestly though, the differences were not as dramatic as you described.

There were some forms, like our third brown cranes that Master Garry changed "to do them like they used to be done when they were first taught." According to him, Elder Master Leonard took some techniques out (though whether that was true or why that happened were not clear to me).

The best way to know how the material was first done is if it was ever videoed before these alleged changes. That would be interesting to compare.

[Judge Pen]

So lets see it.

I can't speak for any of the other detractors but that's all I've really been asking, is that you guys back up your claims about this core of ShaolinDo that somehow justifies all of the other obvious nonsense. If I see something that demonstrates a distinctive unity of style that isn't obvious seminar tai chi or learned from a book then I'll gladly shut the **** up. SHeeeit, maybe I'll even go take a class at a CSC.

I can already tell you what is going to happen. We'll get several pages of a plagiarized dissertation on the nature of Aristotelian Correspondence and then the ShaolinDo peanut gallery will start whining about the lack of decorum while simultaneously making veiled threats of physical violence and the basic request will remain conveniently unaddressed.

So what are you asking? To see this material?

[kwaichang]

I 1st learned the 1-30 in 1981 they were taught slower and look the same as now , but they diod not have a bow stance after each one . a good training drill is to call #s say 8, 16 or 3 and 21 mix emup or do them 30-1.

[Syn7]

If I may speak for him, Sean isn't fighting "for" SD. He used to train in SD and though he still respects his teacher and many of his peers, he has no love for Sin The or SD. I'm not really training anymore either. I'm calling things the way I see it, but my persepctive includes 20 years of training in SD and a detest for the lies and tall tales that have been told and the delusions that some in SD still maintain.

Meh, either way, Sean seems like a chill guy and doesn't seem to take criticism from people he doesn't know to the heart the way others on here have.

And yeah, I like your ability to separate yourself from the bull****. Mos def an asset for somebody who spends time on the ugly side of the bar.

Are you a criminal defense attorney? litigator? Civil law? what?

[Syn7]

This isn't a rodeo; its a merry-go-round. If you want to stop going in circles, you just get off the ride. I had been off this forum for a long time until Sin The's deposition.

Either way, I decide when I'm done. All anyone can do about it is not respond.

I like circles. They amuse me. And it's not like I'm here for any sort of higher purpose. It's just something to do in between other tasks that only leave small windows that don't allow me to do something else more involved. I'm a multi tasker like that. Doing one thing at a time is actually hard for me. I'm the guy that watches a movie, writes code or is building something, and popping in and out of conversations while cooking dinner. It's a gift and a curse. It's awesome for getting stuff done, but sucks when it comes time to go to sleep without distractions. And quite often people don't feel I am giving them my full attention and feel insulted.

[sean_stonehart]

still waiting for your "proof" that you have independent documentation of HSK's lineage's 5 Animal Form being taught in other systems; but let me guess - it's in the same holding pattern as those videos you just can't put up at this point, right?

luv & smoochies

DB

*ouch* ... :cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

anyone? comments?

My understanding is probably more akin to Master Reid (though mine is much more shallow) than Master Grooms (who does his slightly different). But when I perform single whip, I do it differently than Master Reid (more as a throw than a strike). He separates form from function because he can turn every motion into 30 applications, but sometimes I like to stress the spirit of a function over the form. Just personal differences--everyone's got 'em.

I did take CMC's treatises to heart---especially with wrist movements. I also do not do the form super-slow, but more at the speed of CMC. His short form was intended to be a "short" form, after all.

I'll see if I can't get a section up sometime soon. But I'm a pretty busy guy, and it'll be tough to get my wife to videotape me.

[tattooedmonk]

Did someone bring a chicken in here!? Cuz all I hear is clucking!:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

I 1st learned the 1-30 in 1981 they were taught slower and look the same as now , but they diod not have a bow stance after each one . a good training drill is to call #s say 8, 16 or 3 and 21 mix emup or do them 30-1.

So, you're saying that they didn't have the ready stance, with one hand extended in a horizontal-fist punch?


So, did they all start from a natural stance, then?

If so, I can see why they may have developed into stationary drills, since the natural stance to bow stance transition is difficult for many green belts, even.

[tattooedmonk]

My understanding is probably more akin to Master Reid (though mine is much more shallow as of yet) than Master Grooms (who does his slightly different). But when I perform single whip, I do it differently than Master Reid (more as a throw than a strike). He separates form from function because he can turn every motion into 30 applications, but sometimes I like to stress the spirit of a function over the form. Just personal differences--everyone's got 'em.

I did take CMC's treatises to heart---especially with wrist movements. I also do not do the form super-slow, but more at the speed of CMC. His short form was intended to be a "short" form, after all.

I'll see if I can't get a section up sometime soon. But I'm a pretty busy guy, and it'll be tough to get my wife to videotape me.
Hey guys, I am going to put some up on my web page soon... Because I am learning as I am building the site , somethings take longer and are more involved . It might take me a bit, Especially for a new programmer.:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

So, you're saying that they didn't have the ready stance, with one hand extended in a horizontal-fist punch?


So, did they all start from a natural stance, then?

If so, I can see why they may have developed into stationary drills, since the natural stance to bow stance transition is difficult for many green belts, even.most people don't apply the proper mechanics involved to achieve desired results....

[Judge Pen]

Meh, either way, Sean seems like a chill guy and doesn't seem to take criticism from people he doesn't know to the heart the way others on here have.

And yeah, I like your ability to separate yourself from the bull****. Mos def an asset for somebody who spends time on the ugly side of the bar.

Are you a criminal defense attorney? litigator? Civil law? what?

Civil litigation/tort defense/business litigation. Also some zoning/municipal litigation.

[hskwarrior]

still waiting for your "proof" that you have independent documentation of HSK's lineage's 5 Animal Form being taught in other systems; but let me guess - it's in the same holding pattern as those videos you just can't put up at this point, right?

me toooooo

[Snipsky]

most people don't apply the proper mechanics involved to achieve desired results....
Reply With Quote

since you are Shaolin Do, i don't think anyone is going to believe you.

[brucereiter]

My understanding is probably more akin to Master Reid (though mine is much more shallow) than Master Grooms (who does his slightly different).


makes sense you have had more exposer to master mike. mine is a bit of both of them in addition to a few outside influences.



But when I perform single whip, I do it differently than Master Reid (more as a throw than a strike). He separates form from function because he can turn every motion into 30 applications, but sometimes I like to stress the spirit of a function over the form. Just personal differences--everyone's got 'em.

once you get the idea of the intention of weight transfer of each movement i think it is easier to find lots of applications from the same movement.



I did take CMC's treatises to heart---especially with wrist movements. I also do not do the form super-slow, but more at the speed of CMC. His short form was intended to be a "short" form, after all.


the ideas cmc had about the wrist are valuable but i think it should be varied depending on the intention you are working on at the moment.

i think general practice should take 3 speeds for yang 64 form.
very slow around 20 or more minutes. medium speed around 5-7 minutes and random speed transitioning from fast to slow adding snap and speed at times around 3-4 minutes



I'll see if I can't get a section up sometime soon. But I'm a pretty busy guy, and it'll be tough to get my wife to videotape me.
i think section 1 is a good reference sine it it similar in almost all methods of yang tai chi chuan and therefore easier to compare.

[Syn7]

Hey guys, I am going to put some up on my web page soon... Because I am learning as I am building the site , somethings take longer and are more involved . It might take me a bit, Especially for a new programmer.:cool:

HTML is a cakewalk playbwoy...

[Syn7]

Civil litigation/tort defense/business litigation. Also some zoning/municipal litigation.

Botton feeder huh :p:D

[yutyeesam]

I understand. I wasn't trying to be critical; I was just trying to get a feel for where they would be in their training and skill and under what rule limitations they were under. You see that "exploratory jab" a lot in sparring even though it's not something you see in forms or drills as often so I was curious about that and the lack of kicks. They are not bad clips, but I didn't expect them to be advanced students from what I saw.

Shaolin Dynasty can correct me if I'm wrong, here. I think what you are interpreting as an "exploratory jab", is actually one of the very elements Shaolin Dynasty has demonstrated in his videos and articles on the 10 Elements of CLF, Na (or Chuen Na, for the complete name). It's a bridging technique. The moment you touch, you can try to get a sense of their energy. Even though Ving Tsun is well known for Chi Sao, and their Mon Sao Asking Hands strategy, CLF does this via sometimes trying to create a bridge. So, to me, that is not an unidentified exploratory jab not found in forms, it is the element Chuen Na used to create a bridge, which we have all over the place in CLF forms.

I'm not sure what you are exactly getting at with regards to your beginner/advanced inquiry. What these guys were doing was demonstrating quite effectively the core principles of their respective arts at a high contact level and high resistance level. That was the whole point of what Shaolin Dynasty was getting at - there are core principles in CLF learned in a progressive structure that are done as drills and forms, and are soundly applied in different sparring formats.

Speaking of different formats, just for fun, here's a video of Sifu Phillip Ng doing a friendly sparring match with a Hung Ga guy on a TV show.
Sifu Phillip is using the CLF Chop Choy drilling method Shaolin Dynasty has provided a clips of. The Ng Family is very modest about their achievements, but I think it helps to know that Sifu Phillip is one of the founders of the Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association, and he is a highly sought out fight choreographer and stunt-actor in Hong Kong, and has worked with many of the heroes of the Kung-Fu film genre.
Anyway, here's the friendly sparring match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsuNEws8w7Q&feature=share&list=UUHKRCZotjbF9l_XWVsNoj_Q

A little peek into his involvement in the Hong Kong Action Film industry, here's the trailer of a film he's in called Once Upon a Time in Shanghai, Yuen Woo Ping as action director:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvXMolColkg

-123

[Judge Pen]

Yutyeesam,

I hope you or shaolindynasty didn't take my comments or inquiry as any slight to Ng family CMA. I thought the clips were quite good, and I'm aware of the stellar and well earned reputation of Ng Family CMA. In the sparring clip, I was puzzled about obvious restrictions that were on the two while they sparred and it seemed to me that they were both young and still advancing in the art. I was impressed with both of the participants control, discipline and techniqe in the match.

As far as the jab, I understanding bridging techniques and how a jab can lend itself to that. I do that myself when I spar, but to my eye it looked like the CLF student was trying to use the jab to look for opening in the VT's center line defense. The VT student was very disciplined in maintaining center-line control (a hallmark to their core principles) and the outside in techniques of the CLF student became more effective as he moved laterally and tried to avoid both the VT's students center-line control.

Which was why I was also asking about the SanDa rules. In addition to the jab's I saw in sparring, some of the training videos showed some very nice drill work for Western Boxing techniques. I was curious how much traditional strikes get mixed with western techniques in SanDa as taught and trained in that video. That's a larger conversation (with echos of all sparring looks like kick-boxing) but the use of boxing technique was very apparent to me in the video.

[Judge Pen]

Botton feeder huh :p:D

Eh, I do ok.

http://www.fmsllp.com/images/stories/pdf/ready_mix_opn1.pdf

http://www.fmsllp.com/images/stories/news/6-27-12_nelms_mullins.pdf

http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/sites/default/files/411partnershipopn.pdf

[yutyeesam]

Yutyeesam,
Which was why I was also asking about the SanDa rules. In addition to the jab's I saw in sparring, some of the training videos showed some very nice drill work for Western Boxing techniques. I was curious how much traditional strikes get mixed with western techniques in SanDa as taught and trained in that video. That's a larger conversation (with echos of all sparring looks like kick-boxing) but the use of boxing technique was very apparent to me in the video.

I see what you're saying. Again, Shaolin Dynasty can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's less about the specific technique, but more about the concept that lies underneath the technique. If you look at Shaolin Dynasty's posts and article, there's a concept called "Gating". You use a technique aimed at a particular gate/zone of the body to draw reactions. Ping Chop (level straight punch) is a common one that does it, and Ping Chop is in our drills and forms.

So, in CLF, the concept of Gating is canonized.

[tattooedmonk]

HTML is a cakewalk playbwoy...

I agree. But learning as you go has it ups and down.... Going to learn python next.:D

[tattooedmonk]

everyone that sent me email addresses just received one. dont get too excited, its just a test email to make sure I got everyone so far...materials going out tommorow.

Sorry, I am behind schedule.:D:cool: thanks for all the responses!

[bodhi warrior]

everyone that sent me email addresses just received one. dont get too excited, its just a test email to make sure I got everyone so far...materials going out tommorow.

Sorry, I am behind schedule.:D:cool: thanks for all the responses!

Check your pm.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/D8CLaGMhXfw
Just something I thought was cool Similar to SD

[bodhi warrior]

http://youtu.be/D8CLaGMhXfw
Just something I thought was cool Similar to SD

I've seen a couple of his bagua vids. I like his freedom of expression.

[Syn7]

Eh, I do ok.

http://www.fmsllp.com/images/stories/pdf/ready_mix_opn1.pdf

http://www.fmsllp.com/images/stories/news/6-27-12_nelms_mullins.pdf

http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/sites/default/files/411partnershipopn.pdf

I was just messin with ya.

Are you Mullins then?

[Syn7]

I agree. But learning as you go has it ups and down.... Going to learn python next.:D

Step 1 - Throw away all your Microsoft software. Ditch the windows OS and never look back. Forget IE ever existed and be a better person for it.

Also, templates help if you're teaching yourself. Look at em, learn em, change em, manipulate em, then you'll have no problem starting your own from the ground up. Although KC may call you a plagiarizer, but I'm sure you can live with that. Studying the work of your betters is always a great start.

[tattooedmonk]

Step 1 - Throw away all your Microsoft software. Ditch the windows OS and never look back. Forget IE ever existed and be a better person for it.

Also, templates help if you're teaching yourself. Look at em, learn em, change em, manipulate em, then you'll have no problem starting your own from the ground up. Although KC may call you a plagiarizer, but I'm sure you can live with that. Studying the work of your betters is always a great start.

Lucky I never learned any of that crap. we dont use any of those products in my home! not even our friends:D

I have a great teacher showing me the ropes. its amazing , you can teach an old dog new tricks!:p

its a whole new angle to get the womens and the monies!:D:cool:

it addictive too, I like it!:eek:;):cool:

[tattooedmonk]

everyone that sent me email addresses just received one. dont get too excited, its just a test email to make sure I got everyone so far...materials going out tommorow.

Sorry, I am behind schedule.:D:cool: thanks for all the responses!

sorry everyone. i am having a tech issue...i probably broke something...hahah

[Judge Pen]

I was just messin with ya.

Are you Mullins then?

I know; but I've had a good year. And yeah, I'm Mullins (no familial relation to Garry Mullins).

[tattooedmonk]

I apologize ...everyone please try the email again in 30 mins...its now 1800hrs.

[Syn7]

I know; but I've had a good year. And yeah, I'm Mullins (no familial relation to Garry Mullins).

Good for you man. Go for yours. I read the overturn. Nice! If I ever wanna screw somebody over in Kentucky I'll let you know. :D


Yes the name made me wonder, but the way you talk about Gary Mullins makes no suggestion of an familial relation. So I oretty much ruled it out. But thanx for clearing it up anyways.

[Syn7]

Lucky I never learned any of that crap. we dont use any of those products in my home! not even our friends:D

I have a great teacher showing me the ropes. its amazing , you can teach an old dog new tricks!:p

its a whole new angle to get the womens and the monies!:D:cool:

it addictive too, I like it!:eek:;):cool:

Just wait till you start writing source code. It's fun and maddening at the same time. I only got into it cause I had to for my projects, but I'm glad I did.

[sean_stonehart]

http://youtu.be/D8CLaGMhXfw
Just something I thought was cool Similar to SD

I gotta ask... what's similar??

I've seen SD played Bagua version from the West Coast, Kentucky, Tenn & Ga ... and there's only one person I've come across that has anything like the body mechanics, expression & linkage anywhere close to what this guy uses.

[Snipsky]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
http://youtu.be/D8CLaGMhXfw
Just something I thought was cool Similar to SD

sorry, i've never seen anyone in sd move this well. sorry

[Judge Pen]

Good for you man. Go for yours. I read the overturn. Nice! If I ever wanna screw somebody over in Kentucky I'll let you know. :D


Yes the name made me wonder, but the way you talk about Gary Mullins makes no suggestion of an familial relation. So I oretty much ruled it out. But thanx for clearing it up anyways.

If you want to try to screw someone over, call a billboard lawyer! :D

[Syn7]

If you want to try to screw someone over, call a billboard lawyer! :D

Get me an ambulance chaser!

[kwaichang]

See that is what I am talking about. The form is similar to Dragon Pa Kua and many of whom I have trained with moves almost as well as that gentleman. When I say almost there is a man in Houston Tx who does move as well, I trained with him for 6 years. One has just do it over and over and over . To get it, most dont. KC

[sean_stonehart]

See that is what I am talking about. The form is similar to Dragon Pa Kua and many of whom I have trained with moves almost as well as that gentleman. When I say almost there is a man in Houston Tx who does move as well, I trained with him for 6 years. One has just do it over and over and over . To get it, most dont. KC

KC ... you dropped a blind statement out here with no reference to anything other than ...


Just something I thought was cool Similar to SD

but now you're being indignent when remarks are made & questions asked relating to SD & performance/mechanics/etc...

[kwaichang]

Sorry if I seemed that way didnt mean to. Have you seen the dragon Pa Kua? any way The form is very circular as that one is and has many of the same moves, His form looked as if he mixed the sections for that particular Bit.
I was refering to so many that judge SD by what they have seen on the You Tube thing. and many SD or X SD people havent seen the Dragon Pa Kua performed well. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry if I seemed that way didnt mean to. Have you seen the dragon Pa Kua? any way The form is very circular as that one is and has many of the same moves, His form looked as if he mixed the sections for that particular Bit.
I was refering to so many that judge SD by what they have seen on the You Tube thing. and many SD or X SD people havent seen the Dragon Pa Kua performed well. KC

There are different Dragon named bagua sets around. I might've seen the SD version & not known it.

But back to my original comment, I've never seen anybody except 1 person move in SD with that kind of body unity. Never mind the set. If you've got video of somebody in SD with that kind of body connecvity & unity, I'd like to see that.

[kwaichang]

I do not have a Video of it but I have seen this same guy on You Tube do the Buddha fist better than any I have ever seen by anyone. Cant remember his name. KC

[sean_stonehart]

I do not have a Video of it but I have seen this same guy on You Tube do the Buddha fist better than any I have ever seen by anyone. Cant remember his name. KC

Can you find that?

[kwaichang]

Stone , I will send you the guys name in a PM . KC

[sean_stonehart]

Stone , I will send you the guys name in a PM . KC

Got it. Move along... nothing to see here...

[Judge Pen]

You guys care sharing his name too?

Never mind, it's posted on the video.....

[sean_stonehart]

You guys care sharing his name too?

Never mind, it's posted on the video.....

That's why you're getting a retainer payment... ;)

[Judge Pen]

If you find the video of him doing "Buddha Fist" or whatever that form is supposed to be called, please share. I'd love to see that.

[sean_stonehart]

If you find the video of him doing "Buddha Fist" or whatever that form is supposed to be called, please share. I'd love to see that.

Yeah I only got the one, but I put a question on there on it. Hopefully, it'll be seen.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/OQ_Lj5p3iMA
8 animal another SD form take a look. KC

[sean_stonehart]

http://youtu.be/OQ_Lj5p3iMA
8 animal another SD form take a look. KC

Yeah. I used to have that video & his video of the JRZ bagua.

I left way before getting that.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/mHDhGicDrVk
Here is part of the SD Dragon Pa Kua , cant really see it on my computer that well Let me know what you guys think. KC LOve this form in its entirety

[sean_stonehart]

http://youtu.be/mHDhGicDrVk
Here is part of the SD Dragon Pa Kua , cant really see it on my computer that well Let me know what you guys think. KC LOve this form in its entirety

This isn't "SD Dragon Bagua". That may be what it's referred to but this is Sun Lun Tang's Swimming Dragon Bagua. I know this. Trust me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3u3um2Axk

[tattooedmonk]

This isn't "SD Dragon Bagua". That may be what it's referred to but this is Sun Lun Tang's Swimming Dragon Bagua. I know this. Trust me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3u3um2AxkI will co sign this...I have looked and looked for the SD 8 animal and cant find it anywhere outside of SD. Its an incredible form.

[tattooedmonk]

The following people have email.....Iron Palm, KC, Old and Used , Old Noob and Nautavac.:):D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

You guys care sharing his name too?

Never mind, it's posted on the video.....

can i get in the loop here?:D

[OTD]

<Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang
I do not have a Video of it but I have seen this same guy on You Tube do the Buddha fist better than any I have ever seen by anyone. Cant remember his name. KCQuote>

+1 On getting in the Loop
Thanks
OTD

[kwaichang]

TRue my mess up My computer sux at work and I couldnt see it well. KC:)

[Iron Palm]

http://youtu.be/OQ_Lj5p3iMA
8 animal another SD form take a look. KC

May I ask when and from whom you all learned the 8 animal and/or Dragon Bagua sets?

I learned both forms from David Soard, and he didn't move anything like any of the practicioners in the videos linked, at least not during instruction.

However, I ask because the video Kwaichang posted is by Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson, who is frequently referenced as a source of credibility at some of the Soard schools. The claim made is usually something along the lines of: Dr. Johnson is a highly respected authority on Bagua, and the Bagua he does is very similar to ours, so they must have a common, authentic source.

Given everything that has come to light lately, it would be interesting to hear how long these forms have been taught within SD. Dr. Johnson has published many books (and videos obviously as well), one dating to at least 1990: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Chang-Fighting-Systems-Weapons/dp/1897907737/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1355256019&sr=8-12&keywords=jerry+alan+johnson

[brucereiter]

http://youtu.be/OQ_Lj5p3iMA
8 animal another SD form take a look. KC

do you think this is the same 8 animal pakua that bill leonard and sin the teach?

[tattooedmonk]

May I ask when and from whom you all learned the 8 animal and/or Dragon Bagua sets?

I learned both forms from David Soard, and he didn't move anything like any of the practicioners in the videos linked, at least not during instruction.

However, I ask because the video Kwaichang posted is by Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson, who is frequently referenced as a source of credibility at some of the Soard schools. The claim made is usually something along the lines of: Dr. Johnson is a highly respected authority on Bagua, and the Bagua he does is very similar to ours, so they must have a common, authentic source.

Given everything that has come to light lately, it would be interesting to hear how long these forms have been taught within SD. Dr. Johnson has published many books (and videos obviously as well), one dating to at least 1990: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Chang-Fighting-Systems-Weapons/dp/1897907737/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1355256019&sr=8-12&keywords=jerry+alan+johnsonDr. Jerry Allan Johnson is a very reliable source for knowledge...he is CYKFA BB # 74 http://www.chingyikungfu.com/index.php?m=5 He was recently awarded 5th degree BB http://www.chingyikungfu.com/index.php?m=51

If you look down the first list you will see my name # 102.

[tattooedmonk]

do you think this is the same 8 animal pakua that bill leonard and sin the teach?

He corrected himself...hey Bruce!

[sean_stonehart]

If you look down the first list you will see my name # 102.

How long did you study to become #102?

[bodhi warrior]

May I ask when and from whom you all learned the 8 animal and/or Dragon Bagua sets?

I learned both forms from David Soard, and he didn't move anything like any of the practicioners in the videos linked, at least not during instruction.

However, I ask because the video Kwaichang posted is by Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson, who is frequently referenced as a source of credibility at some of the Soard schools. The claim made is usually something along the lines of: Dr. Johnson is a highly respected authority on Bagua, and the Bagua he does is very similar to ours, so they must have a common, authentic source.

Given everything that has come to light lately, it would be interesting to hear how long these forms have been taught within SD. Dr. Johnson has published many books (and videos obviously as well), one dating to at least 1990: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Chang-Fighting-Systems-Weapons/dp/1897907737/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1355256019&sr=8-12&keywords=jerry+alan+johnson

I know the Jiang rongqiao form was taught prior to 1980.

[kwaichang]

I saw the 8 Animal Pa Kua in 91 in its entirety , I learned it in 2002. The Dragon was taught in 2001 I think cant really remember at work KC

[Syn7]

Stone , I will send you the guys name in a PM . KC

Why not here?

[themeecer]

http://youtu.be/OQ_Lj5p3iMA
8 animal another SD form take a look. KC

When did Gallagher start doing Pa Qua?

[sean_stonehart]

When did Gallagher start doing Pa Qua?

I wanna know what Pa Qua is....

[themeecer]

I wanna know what Pa Qua is....

It is correct way to spell this gay bagua crap some people type. Same with taiji .. it's tai chi.

It is about as annoying as hearing our president pronounce Pakistan as Pockeston.

[Syn7]

It is correct way to spell this gay bagua crap some people type. Same with taiji .. it's tai chi.

lol. I so hope you are kidding! Please tell me you are joking?

[themeecer]

lol. I so hope you are kidding! Please tell me you are joking?

No Syn7. Those were common English spellings for the words.

It is like when an American pronounces Paris as Paree. Freaking annoying.

Edit: You do realize there was no standardized way to spell these words when it first hit the US. In the early 80s when I learned these, these words were spelled as pa qua and tai chi here.

And yes the pronunciation is somewhere between kua, qua, and gua.

[Syn7]

The *******ization of proper names annoys the hell out of me. And Americans are the worst at that. Like droppin the I in aluminium is just lazy. Or saying Ceaser when the word is actually Caesar. I mean you can atleast try to say it properly.

[themeecer]

The *******ization of proper names

LOL You know what is more annoying than that ... when profanity filters edit words that aren't profane. I saw your first post before you changed the color of the text to bypass the filters.

[Leto]

No Syn7. Those were common English spellings for the words.

It is like when an American pronounces Paris as Paree. Freaking annoying.

Edit: You do realize there was no standardized way to spell these words when it first hit the US. In the early 80s when I learned these, these words were spelled as pa qua and tai chi here.

And yes the pronunciation is somewhere between kua, qua, and gua.

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

[brucereiter]

No Syn7. Those were common English spellings for the words.

It is like when an American pronounces Paris as Paree. Freaking annoying.

Edit: You do realize there was no standardized way to spell these words when it first hit the US. In the early 80s when I learned these, these words were spelled as pa qua and tai chi here.

And yes the pronunciation is somewhere between kua, qua, and gua.

Hi meecer,

I am not a chinese speaker and it was very confusing when I started learning tai chi chuan I would see books about "taijiquan" and thought this is strange they look the same but have different names. Anyway in time I learned. Check out the linked wiki page for some information on the translations to English. Maybe you are already aware but if not you may find it useful. Note the dates.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade–Giles

[themeecer]

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu? :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

LOL You know what is more annoying than that ... when profanity filters edit words that aren't profane. I saw your first post before you changed the color of the text to bypass the filters.

totally... like ****sapien or ****her...

[Syn7]

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

No ****, ay. Like where is "Canton" and how does that sound like the real name?

[Syn7]

Hi meecer,

I am not a chinese speaker and it was very confusing when I started learning tai chi chuan I would see books about "taijiquan" and thought this is strange they look the same but have different names. Anyway in time I learned. Check out the linked wiki page for some information on the translations to English. Maybe you are already aware but if not you may find it useful. Note the dates.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade–Giles

It's all about pinyin. And it was about time they fixed that horror show of a translative process.

[Syn7]

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu? :rolleyes:

So basically you follow suit just to fit in then. Instead of combating the ignorance of *******ization you just jump on the bus?

[Leto]

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu? :rolleyes:

I guess we just disagree about that. I don't think it is pretentious to pronounce or spell words correctly, especially not in martial arts class, where you are saying Chinese words all the time, and people are expecting to be taught. It is being properly informed. I guess if you know you are among people who won't know what you're talking about, you would use the Americanized pronounciations for the sake of clearer communication, if it would help. But I don't think there is anything wrong with educating people, either, if they didn't know how to pronounce a word. How else will anyone learn?
The inability to properly pronounce and spell just about every Chinese word on the part of my teachers is something that really bugged me when I was in CSC. It's not like I even know Chinese, but I could read a quick tutorial from anywhere and learn how to say and spell these names much more accurately. For someone who spends their life teaching Chinese martial arts, you'd think they would make an effort to learn how to pronounce what they are teaching. And spelling words in a non-standardized way just creates confusion for some students, who want to investigate things on their own and don't even know what to look for, especially when we aren't routinely given the Chinese characters for most of our material.

Don't confuse me with an uninformed "hater" of everything SD who argues about uniforms, just because I disagree with you about this. I'm not a SD/Sin The apologist, but I am still interested in the material I learned and want to make it the best I can. Improving my understanding of Chinese is a part of that.

[Empty_Cup]

I guess we just disagree about that. I don't think it is pretentious to pronounce or spell words correctly, especially not in martial arts class, where you are saying Chinese words all the time, and people are expecting to be taught. It is being properly informed. I guess if you know you are among people who won't know what you're talking about, you would use the Americanized pronounciations for the sake of clearer communication, if it would help. But I don't think there is anything wrong with educating people, either, if they didn't know how to pronounce a word. How else will anyone learn?
The inability to properly pronounce and spell just about every Chinese word on the part of my teachers is something that really bugged me when I was in CSC. It's not like I even know Chinese, but I could read a quick tutorial from anywhere and learn how to say and spell these names much more accurately. For someone who spends their life teaching Chinese martial arts, you'd think they would make an effort to learn how to pronounce what they are teaching. And spelling words in a non-standardized way just creates confusion for some students, who want to investigate things on their own and don't even know what to look for, especially when we aren't routinely given the Chinese characters for most of our material.

...

Does anybody know if the notes/names/etc. used by GMS are Mandarin, Cantonese, or something else? I thought I read once there was some kind of Southern dialect he used but can't remember.

As for other languages, I totally understand what themeecer is talking about. But more from a "I want to be able to understand you" perspective. Try pronouncing "paprika" with the true Hungarian pronunciation and people will look at you with blank stares.

[kwaichang]

Who cares how a word of Chinese origin is spelled. Ma is spelled that way , but we say Ma Bu and may be saying Horse or Mother. Better work on saying it right instead of with the wrong tone and mean something else. Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want . Just say it the right way. You guys kill me also who says Halopinio, or Jalopeno? KC

[Orion Paximus]

It takes little to zero effort to learn enough mandarin or cantonese (or both) to service you in a Kung Fu school setting. There is no excuse to not know the pinyin or pronunciation for the handful of words required. It's only if you do not care at all that you would continue to use incorrect pronunciation and spelling and if that is the case, why bother trying to use the Chinese at all? Why not just use engrish?

Can't say Bagua? Say 8 Triagram or something. Because it DOES matter.

[sean_stonehart]

It takes little to zero effort to learn enough mandarin or cantonese (or both) to service you in a Kung Fu school setting. There is no excuse to not know the pinyin or pronunciation for the handful of words required. It's only if you do not care at all that you would continue to use incorrect pronunciation and spelling and if that is the case, why bother trying to use the Chinese at all? Why not just use engrish?

Can't say Bagua? Say 8 Triagram or something. Because it DOES matter.

Rock on...

[Leto]

Who cares how a word of Chinese origin is spelled. Ma is spelled that way , but we say Ma Bu and may be saying Horse or Mother. Better work on saying it right instead of with the wrong tone and mean something else. Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want . Just say it the right way. You guys kill me also who says Halopinio, or Jalopeno? KC

If you're speaking, you should say it correctly. If you're writing something down, you should write it correctly so people know what you mean. I know writing Chinese words with our alphabet is never going to match up completely. It doesn't matter so much, really, especially if you recognize the Chinese characters...but it isn't "gay crap" to use the correct romanization system, as themeecer said, that's the only reason I started talking about it. If he had never said that, I never would have commented. I don't care that he wrote "pa qua" even though it is wrong, because I know what he meant. It's not "PC crap", it's the correct way to romanize Chinese words. It becomes unintelligible if everyone just spells words whatever way they want, especially Chinese words. That's why they invented romanization systems. And I would find it a bit unprofessional for a Chinese martial arts instructor (or even long time practitioner) not to know the correct way write the name of their own styles. The different Chinese dialects do confuse things somewhat, and the SD system is the most confused because they use different dialects for the names of different forms and styles within the system. But for the names which are in mandarin, like tai chi/taiji and pa kua/bagua, there are two correct ways they can be spelled, and really only one way if you want to be current.
There is no judgement or blame for anyone not being aware of something like the romanization system, there's a first time to learn about everything, but why this attitude about it? Yes, Sin The didn't care or know and didn't use the correct spelling, back in the day. Given everything that we know now, I wouldn't hang my hat on that as justification for anything, especially for someone who wants to convince people that they know and teach Chinese martial arts.

PS. I hope nobody in America pronounces jalapeno with an english "j" sound, instead of "hala-pane-yo". lol
It makes me think of Napoleon Dynamite: "Make yourself a kay sa dilla!"

[wenshu]

Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want .

The romanization of Chinese has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness.

Kind of like how all those videos you keep posting of random martial artists have absolutely nothing to do with Shaolin Do whatsoever.

Hey guys look at this video I found of some karate! It kind of reminds me of Shaolin Do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bTR_Op0Ges

I would point out that the proper spelling of terms is actually about literacy but we all know that would be completely lost on you.

[OldandUsed]

Personally, I still use the Pa Qua and Tai Chi and realy do not care if someone is upset about how I spell it. The pronounciation is sufficient. In my early SD training from back min 1970, I was told by Bill Leonard that the way these forms were pronounced and spelled would change from time to time and that it was based on phonetics. I was also told that there were more than one dialect being used by SKT and HKT, so I was not to worry so much about the spelling as long as I absorbed the material. I still have that mindset today. If some one really cares, have at it because I have other issues to deal with. There is no way I am going to let such a trivial detail change my way of thinking. Just my two cents.

[Leto]

Does anybody know if the notes/names/etc. used by GMS are Mandarin, Cantonese, or something else? I thought I read once there was some kind of Southern dialect he used but can't remember.

As for other languages, I totally understand what themeecer is talking about. But more from a "I want to be able to understand you" perspective. Try pronouncing "paprika" with the true Hungarian pronunciation and people will look at you with blank stares.

The Chinese characters are identical for all Chinese dialects. I believe he mainly uses Hokkienese, that's where we get Hao instead of He(hur) for crane, but I'm not 100% about that. I say that because I read somewhere that the hokkien pronounciation of crane was "hao". Where we say "chien" instead of "quan" for the word fist must also be the hokkien or whatever similar southern dialect his family uses. tai peng sin kune appears to be cantonese, since it isn't "tai peng sin chien" or "tai peng shen quan". Other forms and style names are in mandarin, (hua quan, wu xing quan, hsing i ch'uan, t'ai chi ch'uan).

[Judge Pen]

The Chinese characters are identical for all Chinese dialects. I believe he mainly uses Hokkienese, that's where we get Hao instead of He(hur) for crane, but I'm not 100% about that. I say that because I read somewhere that the hokkien pronounciation of crane was "hao". Where we say "chien" instead of "quan" for the word fist must also be the hokkien or whatever similar southern dialect his family uses. tai peng sin kune appears to be cantonese, since it isn't "tai peng sin chien" or "tai peng shen quan". Other forms and style names are in mandarin, (hua quan, wu xing quan, hsing i ch'uan, t'ai chi ch'uan).

Funny you say that, because the old handwritten notes of Sin The listing the black belt material romanizes these form names as "hua chien", "tai chi chien", "pa kua chang", "shing ie chien" etc.

[Empty_Cup]

Funny you say that, because the old handwritten notes of Sin The listing the black belt material romanizes these form names as "hua chien", "tai chi chien", "pa kua chang", "shing ie chien" etc.

That's interesting...sounds like GMS kept trying to romanize the sounds and maybe kept updating the romanization from time to time.

[themeecer]

Personally, I still use the Pa Qua and Tai Chi and realy do not care if someone is upset about how I spell it. The pronounciation is sufficient.

Exactly. Someone needs to tell Gene about this debate. He has 227 items listed on martialartsmart.com with the word tai chi attached to it. Oh the sacrilege!

[OldandUsed]

Some folks get their skirts all in a twist for a perceived/imagained transgression on a wide variety of subjects. Be it history, lineage, language, attire, or whatever. I am more of the sort that tries to get along and mind my own business. If I see someone do or say something I do not agree with, I just make a mental note and move on. It is not my problem. If they ask my opinion, I may give it if I do not see any harm from it. If they wish to impose their position on me, I may politely decline or just ignore them. If they put their hands on me, well, then I would deal with that as appropriate. Other than that, it is all just a silly discussion, isn't it? Take the name of my hometown, Louisville. I have heard that as Louavul, Looieeville, Louis-ville and some I cannot reproduce. As long as I understand what you mean, it is all good to me.

[themeecer]

Take the name of my hometown, Louisville. I have heard that as Louavul, Looieeville, Louis-ville and some I cannot reproduce. As long as I understand what you mean, it is all good to me.

Some of those pronunciations are fighting words around here. Heck, we don't even like Louisville .. this is Wildcat country here. :)

Everyone knows that Louisville has two syllables in it ... possibly two and a half.

[OldandUsed]

True, true. BTW, there are more UK alumni and UK fans in Jefferson County than UL. Jus sayin.

[Judge Pen]

That's interesting...sounds like GMS kept trying to romanize the sounds and maybe kept updating the romanization from time to time.

Either that or different teachers changed the romainization to conform with the majority of sources for the art. Looking back at most of the notes I have written in Sin The's hand, he is very consistent with the use of "chien" instead of "chuan" or "quan" so I guess that's reflective the dilect he and/or his teachers spoke.

[Judge Pen]

Maybe the pronunciation isn't a big deal to some, but I can actually see where it is important to others. I actually have a pet peeve about the way people pronounce "Appalachia." Being born and raised in those mountains, I know the proper pronunciation to be "Apple-at-cha" but others, usually trying to sound educated, pronounce it "Apple-a-sha" Really it's not a big difference, but I know a little about your perspective as soon as I hear you pronounce this word. I know if you are really familiar with the culture (or at least are giving an effort to try to be) or if you learned about it in some sociology or geography class. I expect the same is true with the Chinese names. You know if they learned it from a teacher with a firm understanding of the culture from which the art arose(or are at least making an effort) or from a teacher who learned it through a different background. Not that it affects the validity of the techniques or one’s ability to apply it but it raises a red-flag that wouldn't be there otherwise. Just my .2 cents.

[shen ku]

Just curious, how do you define the terms kung fu and/or karate?

[sean_stonehart]

Just curious, how do you define the terms kung fu and/or karate?

Elaborate dude... ;)

[brucereiter]

Just curious, how do you define the terms kung fu and/or karate?


kung fu = time and effort put forth. or chinese martial arts.
karate = china method of fighting from japan.

[Orion Paximus]

Maybe the pronunciation isn't a big deal to some, but I can actually see where it is important to others. I actually have a pet peeve about the way people pronounce "Appalachia." Being born and raised in those mountains, I know the proper pronunciation to be "Apple-at-cha" but others, usually trying to sound educated, pronounce it "Apple-a-sha" Really it's not a big difference, but I know a little about your perspective as soon as I hear you pronounce this word. I know if you are really familiar with the culture (or at least are giving an effort to try to be) or if you learned about it in some sociology or geography class. I expect the same is true with the Chinese names. You know if they learned it from a teacher with a firm understanding of the culture from which the art arose(or are at least making an effort) or from a teacher who learned it through a different background. Not that it affects the validity of the techniques or one’s ability to apply it but it raises a red-flag that wouldn't be there otherwise. Just my .2 cents.

My actual opinion on the subject is this; even outside of just doing Gong Fu, f you are going to go the effort of wearing Chinese clothes, putting up Chinese decorations, participating in Chinese ceremonies like all that is some how traditional, they why butcher without care or hesitation a part of the culture that is way more important to that culture, its language, than all of that other stuff combined?

Just have an american school that teaches Chinese martial arts with American names and blue jeans and a t-shirt or something. It's not about having our panties in a bunch or being "PC", it's about treating the culture as a whole with respect and not ****ting on the parts that aren't important too you.

If you've never been educated in the Chinese language, then that's cool, but when you have been exposed to proper pinyin and Hanzi and even proper pronunciation, why not alter your incorrect habits and information? It can only help your students.

[Judge Pen]

OP I agree.

[shen ku]

Just like that, kung fu = great skill? or master of.. Karate = china hand, empty hand..? I kind of always had this little idea (yes, little mind=little idea, maybe) like if years ago I saw a sign that read tiger kung fu... Some writings but words in defferent orders then english does, so could the sign be ment to read Master of Tiger, in a way?? Any thoughts??

[Syn7]

Who cares how a word of Chinese origin is spelled. Ma is spelled that way , but we say Ma Bu and may be saying Horse or Mother. Better work on saying it right instead of with the wrong tone and mean something else. Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want . Just say it the right way. You guys kill me also who says Halopinio, or Jalopeno? KC

It's not about political correctness. It's about not being lazy and ignorant. Something that seems to be acceptable to some. It's weak.

[Syn7]

Exactly. Someone needs to tell Gene about this debate. He has 227 items listed on martialartsmart.com with the word tai chi attached to it. Oh the sacrilege!

Yeah, except it is not pronounced Tai Chi, no matter how you spell it. Tai Chi is for people too lazy to learn how to say it properly. 40 years ago yall had an excuse. Today you have none!

[Syn7]

Some folks get their skirts all in a twist for a perceived/imagained transgression on a wide variety of subjects. Be it history, lineage, language, attire, or whatever. I am more of the sort that tries to get along and mind my own business. If I see someone do or say something I do not agree with, I just make a mental note and move on. It is not my problem. If they ask my opinion, I may give it if I do not see any harm from it. If they wish to impose their position on me, I may politely decline or just ignore them. If they put their hands on me, well, then I would deal with that as appropriate. Other than that, it is all just a silly discussion, isn't it? Take the name of my hometown, Louisville. I have heard that as Louavul, Looieeville, Louis-ville and some I cannot reproduce. As long as I understand what you mean, it is all good to me.

It's not about transgression or causing offence. It's about excellence and doing things right. If you can't even be bothered to say it right, why should I believe you can be bothered to DO it right.

[Empty_Cup]

SD Warm Up from the KET Series (1981):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3mIW2W9bhA&feature=youtu.be

[brucereiter]

SD Warm Up from the KET Series (1981):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3mIW2W9bhA&feature=youtu.be

Some good warm ups.
I heard sin the showed some tai chi chuan on one of these programs. I would be interested in seeing it.

[Jimbo]

Just curious, how do you define the terms kung fu and/or karate?

Technically, for CMA it would be wuyi or wushu...or Zhongguo (China) wushu. Kung fu (or better spelled gongfu) of course, generally meaning skill developed through time and work, can refer to any endeavor...cooking, carpentry, etc., and even to skill in non-Chinese MA. A good karate man can be said to have good gongfu in his art.

I still often write the old Wade-Giles "kung fu" out of habit instead of gongfu.

[shen ku]

thats what i mean, the meaning behind the words them selves

[tattooedmonk]

Some good warm ups.
I heard sin the showed some tai chi chuan on one of these programs. I would be interested in seeing it.
I believe it is episode 14 .... I have those on VHS..

[Leto]

Funny you say that, because the old handwritten notes of Sin The listing the black belt material romanizes these form names as "hua chien", "tai chi chien", "pa kua chang", "shing ie chien" etc.

You're right, he consistently wrote them all phonetically with "chien" on his curriculum document from the 80's, I didn't even notice that. It makes sense.
I want to reiterate that I didn't really care that much about the phonetic spelling anyone wants to use, especially when we're talking about non-mandarin dialects that don't have a standardized method. It was the comments calling the proper romanization "gay crap" and "PC crap" which I thought was uninformed and ridiculous. So you pronounce things the way Sin The does, with his southern dialect, that doesn't make people who use mandarin "gay". Not to mention the problem with using the word "gay" as a derogatory adjective (now there's some "PC crap" for you.) ;)

[Syn7]

My actual opinion on the subject is this; even outside of just doing Gong Fu, f you are going to go the effort of wearing Chinese clothes, putting up Chinese decorations, participating in Chinese ceremonies like all that is some how traditional, they why butcher without care or hesitation a part of the culture that is way more important to that culture, its language, than all of that other stuff combined?

Very well said!!!

Not the point I was trying to make with my posts, but VERY valid point. Just one more in the clip, as far as I'm concerned. ;)

[Syn7]

You're right, he consistently wrote them all phonetically with "chien" on his curriculum document from the 80's, I didn't even notice that. It makes sense.
I want to reiterate that I didn't really care that much about the phonetic spelling anyone wants to use, especially when we're talking about non-mandarin dialects that don't have a standardized method. It was the comments calling the proper romanization "gay crap" and "PC crap" which I thought was uninformed and ridiculous. So you pronounce things the way Sin The does, with his southern dialect, that doesn't make people who use mandarin "gay". Not to mention the problem with using the word "gay" as a derogatory adjective (now there's some "PC crap" for you.) ;)

As I was browsing SD material like a year ago I took notice of an inconsistency in spelling and pronunciation? Was it always like that or did it SKT just evolve in that and some students chose to just keep going with what they originally learned, hence the mishmash thing?

[Empty_Cup]

Some good warm ups.
I heard sin the showed some tai chi chuan on one of these programs. I would be interested in seeing it.

I have seen a TJQ clip but will have to hunt for it. The best TJQ I've seen him do is on a separate vid (the one where he's wearing a robe sort of thing). I don't have access to that vid.

The other clip I plan on posting from the KET series is EMSm performing a few postures from Yijin jing.

Stay tuned.

[brucereiter]

I believe it is episode 14 .... I have those on VHS..

If possible I would like to see it.

[themeecer]

Not to mention the problem with using the word "gay" as a derogatory adjective (now there's some "PC crap" for you.) ;)

Wow, what a gay comment. :D

[Kellen Bassette]

kung fu = time and effort put forth. or chinese martial arts.
karate = china method of fighting from japan.

Got to point out Karate is Okinawan, not Japanese. It began in Okinawa and was later brought to Japan.

I know this seems like a technicality, but the Kingdom of Ryukyu was a separate culture prior to Japanese occupation.

Japanese Karate has developed a different flavor than traditional Okinawan Karate.

Referring to Karate as being "Japanese" would be akin to referring to Tibetan arts as "Chinese."

[Leto]

As I was browsing SD material like a year ago I took notice of an inconsistency in spelling and pronunciation? Was it always like that or did it SKT just evolve in that and some students chose to just keep going with what they originally learned, hence the mishmash thing?

Hard to say. The document from the early 80's where Sin The wrote out his entire curriculum has some inconsistencies. He does use "chien" for fist everywhere but one place, where he uses "kune" instead. Of course in that case, though it is the Chinese character for "fist", he translates it as "wings". Though elsewhere on the document there is the actual character for "wings" and he translates it as "tse". He spells crane two different ways on this same document, in one place spelling it "ho" and another place "he". In the material I received as a CSC student, they spelled it "hao". In another place he uses "he" for the word for "dove", which is pronounced exactly as the word for crane in mandarin. They are little things, but they indicate there has always been some mishmash of language and spellings, and at least at the time he was not concerned about it. As time went on, and material got added from outside sources, and students learned about other Chinese styles and words, I think mandarin and the standard romanization systems started popping up as well. When I was there, we had some pinyin, some wade giles, and some Sin The whatever it is, and nobody really knew how to pronounce anything. Even the senior/elder masters didn't pronounce some things correctly (easy words/names like tang lang and wang lang), and didn't know what the names of some of the forms really mean.

[Syn7]

So what is SKTs first language? He is presented as if he's some genius nuclear physicist that simply decided, in his ever so humble ways, to teach MA. I'm just not understanding what the disconnect is all about. I mean if you understand physics then you know math. If you understand math, linguistics should be a lil easier for you. You following me? So much of the whole SKT phenomenon is just so... "off".

I'm trying to say this nicely....

Must...... resist...... urge......... :o

[tattooedmonk]

Found someone inexpensive to put all the SD stuff I have on VHS to DVD!

[kwaichang]

GMT speaks 7 languages , I believe it is english spanish french german italian, more than one dialect of chinese not sure of the others , cant remember , not defending just sayin, busted again. KC:confused:

[sean_stonehart]

GMT speaks 7 languages , I believe it is english spanish french german italian, more than one dialect of chinese not sure of the others , cant remember , not defending just sayin, busted again. KC:confused:

Well... yeah true, that's what is said. But look what happened with other things that have been said...

Just saying...

[kwaichang]

However , I have witnessed the German , Spanish and of course english , and 2 dialects of chinese. not the Italian or french though. KC

[sean_stonehart]

However , I have witnessed the German , Spanish and of course english , and 2 dialects of chinese. not the Italian or french though. KC

German... fluent, conversational, survival or ordering a beer & sausage? Spanish... fluent, conversational, survival or ordering a beer & nachos?

There are pretty big differences involved there.

Chinese... Mandarin & most likely Hokkien. Not a big suprise there. I imagine he also at least has a working understanding of Behasa or whatever the local Indo dialect is in that area as well.

[Iron Palm]

German... fluent, conversational, survival or ordering a beer & sausage? Spanish... fluent, conversational, survival or ordering a beer & nachos?

There are pretty big differences involved there.

Chinese... Mandarin & most likely Hokkien. Not a big suprise there. I imagine he also at least has a working understanding of Behasa or whatever the local Indo dialect is in that area as well.

I've seen him carry a conversation with native Spanish speakers, but I actually wonder about his proficiency in Chinese languages. I don't know any Mandarin or anything myself, but I've seen some students who do have difficulty in talking to him.

Maybe it's a dialect thing, but some of his handwritten notes have bizarre-seeming translations as well. One example that comes to mind was a posture name along the lines of "Pequefo (sp?) Enters the Forest". I have never been able to find any mention anywhere of a "pequefo" outside of GMT's explanation of it being some kind of eagle/hawk-like bird. Additional oddities include references to a "Golden Cyborg" performing various actions in SD's version of Chen Tai Chi.

I find it unlikely that cyborgs are in any way relevant to the practice of Chen Tai Chi. However, I think the phrase could roughly correspond to what some non-SD styles refer to as a "golden statue." But as Syn7 and others have pointed out, he's supposed to hold a bachelor's and half a masters from an American university, and I'd expect him to be able to translate the word "statue".

I know from experience that his English is pretty good, so I'm guessing any difficulty would be on the Chinese side of whatever original he was attempting to translate from. Keep in mind these translations are written in his own hand and featured on photocopies of notes handed out as recently as in the last 5 years.

[deuseiri]

I've seen him carry a conversation with native Spanish speakers, but I actually wonder about his proficiency in Chinese languages. I don't know any Mandarin or anything myself, but I've seen some students who do have difficulty in talking to him.

Maybe it's a dialect thing, but some of his handwritten notes have bizarre-seeming translations as well. One example that comes to mind was a posture name along the lines of "Pequefo (sp?) Enters the Forest". I have never been able to find any mention anywhere of a "pequefo" outside of GMT's explanation of it being some kind of eagle/hawk-like bird. Additional oddities include references to a "Golden Cyborg" performing various actions in SD's version of Chen Tai Chi.

I find it unlikely that cyborgs are in any way relevant to the practice of Chen Tai Chi. However, I think the phrase could roughly correspond to what some non-SD styles refer to as a "golden statue." But as Syn7 and others have pointed out, he's supposed to hold a bachelor's and half a masters from an American university, and I'd expect him to be able to translate the word "statue".

I know from experience that his English is pretty good, so I'm guessing any difficulty would be on the Chinese side of whatever original he was attempting to translate from. Keep in mind these translations are written in his own hand and featured on photocopies of notes handed out as recently as in the last 5 years.



The pequefo thing is a pun on "pick-a-fowl". I've heard it was because he at the time didn't know the English name of the bird to describe it. I think it refers to a sparrowhawk.

I've personally heard SKT engage in conversations in English, Mandarin, and Spanish. He seemed to be reasonable fluency in them. I went on one of the China trips and he communicated throughout the trip with people. I'm not sure about the specific dialects of Chinese he spoke aside from Mandarin.

The golden cyborg thing is also called the "golden metal man" -- the explanations I've heard compare it to a metal statue that comes to life (kind of like a golem).

[sean_stonehart]

The golden cyborg thing is also called the "golden metal man" -- the explanations I've heard compare it to a metal statue that comes to life (kind of like a golem).

I have no idea where the "golden cyborg" transliteration came from, but it should be Arhat... Jin Gang Da Dui ... Arhat Pounds the Mortar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Bz3uIuBXU

[themeecer]

I have never been able to find any mention anywhere of a "pequefo" outside of GMT's explanation of it being some kind of eagle/hawk-like bird.

It was the combination of the English words pheasant, quail, and fowl. I heard it pronounced as phequefo.

[Golden Arms]

Do you guys have any idea how crazy these conversations and talking points sound to someone that trains real kung fu? If I want to know more about something in Pak Mei I simply ask my Sifu, the same held true in Hung Gar (none of this conjecture, deification, and speaking for my Sifu is/was necessary).

The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" also comes to mind.

I would be genuinely curious what a long time SD'er would experience if they took just one of the styles/systems they claim to have learned and traveled to meet a legitimate teacher of said system. If what you are learning is authentic, then you should have no reservations about doing so, nor should you expect to be exposed to much that you have not already become familiar with. I do this whenever I get with Hung Gar and the Hakka martial arts.

[kwaichang]

Golden arms some of us have trained in other systems prior to SD. I trained Hung Gar , Tang Lang and Bei He, for 10-12 years privately. So I have no prob with any of that I learned in SD. KC

[themeecer]

Do you guys have any idea how crazy these conversations and talking points sound to someone that trains real kung fu? If I want to know more about something in Pak Mei I simply ask my Sifu, the same held true in Hung Gar (none of this conjecture, deification, and speaking for my Sifu is/was necessary).

The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" also comes to mind.

I would be genuinely curious what a long time SD'er would experience if they took just one of the styles/systems they claim to have learned and traveled to meet a legitimate teacher of said system. If what you are learning is authentic, then you should have no reservations about doing so, nor should you expect to be exposed to much that you have not already become familiar with. I do this whenever I get with Hung Gar and the Hakka martial arts.

And the merry go round spins again. :rolleyes:

Do you have any idea how we don't give a flying flip what you think? I wouldn't pay 5 cents for yours or many other's approval on here. You and your pristine lineage wasn't there when I had to defend myself numerous times in the past. The training I received through GMT was; it did me well.
(It was my turn to show my red today, kwaichang)

This is a fun trip down memory lane discussing these old translations. I still tell my students the story about phequefo.

[brucereiter]

Do you guys have any idea how crazy these conversations and talking points sound to someone that trains real kung fu? If I want to know more about something in Pak Mei I simply ask my Sifu, the same held true in Hung Gar (none of this conjecture, deification, and speaking for my Sifu is/was necessary).

The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" also comes to mind.

I would be genuinely curious what a long time SD'er would experience if they took just one of the styles/systems they claim to have learned and traveled to meet a legitimate teacher of said system. If what you are learning is authentic, then you should have no reservations about doing so, nor should you expect to be exposed to much that you have not already become familiar with. I do this whenever I get with Hung Gar and the Hakka martial arts.

I am no longer "in" sd but I still practice some of the material I learned there...

I did not learn any of the external sd material only the internal. Of the internal I learned I think "yang 64" was taught best.

I have be lucky to meet and train and compare with tai chi CHUAN people all over the world. I travel ALOT. When I travel I seek out what ever martial artists I can and get as much exposer as I can to other styles. In comparing the tai chi CHUAN that I learned from my sd/csc teacher I have not had people call my practice into question.

[brucereiter]

And the merry go round spins again. :rolleyes:

Do you have any idea how we don't give a flying flip what you think? I wouldn't pay 5 cents for yours or many other's approval on here. You and your pristine lineage wasn't there when I had to defend myself numerous times in the past. The training I received through GMT was; it did me well.

Inspite of the many "issues" I have with the Sd system and the inconcistincies and lack of good information about some of the material there are a lot of people who can fight well and are in great shape from sd, I am a better fighter than I was before in part from sin the. He is a nice man in my personal interactions with him which is what makes the misinformation even more frustrating.



This is a fun trip down memory lane discussing these old translations. I still tell my students the story about phequefo.
Wid ducks come out as a herd... That one always made me laugh.

[themeecer]

Wid ducks come out as a herd... That one always made me laugh.
That is one of my favorites. Anytime I see a group of ducks I mention there is a herd.

Have you noticed there is a lot of vomiting going on? I don't know what these wild herds of phequefos are doing but they sure do vomit a lot of books.

[Iron Palm]

Do you guys have any idea how crazy these conversations and talking points sound to someone that trains real kung fu? If I want to know more about something in Pak Mei I simply ask my Sifu, the same held true in Hung Gar (none of this conjecture, deification, and speaking for my Sifu is/was necessary).

The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" also comes to mind.

I would be genuinely curious what a long time SD'er would experience if they took just one of the styles/systems they claim to have learned and traveled to meet a legitimate teacher of said system. If what you are learning is authentic, then you should have no reservations about doing so, nor should you expect to be exposed to much that you have not already become familiar with. I do this whenever I get with Hung Gar and the Hakka martial arts.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think I've engaged in any deification and/or speaking for GMT. I am engaging in conjecture because GMT has shown himself to be an unreliable source of information, and I would like to sort out the correct origins, if there are any, of what I spent years doing in SD. Recent discussions on this forum have been very helpful.

I'd also like to know if there was actually a unique "core" Indonesian MA prior to the advent of both the "made up" stuff and anything taken from books, and whether it warrants further investigation.

I'm interested in the information. I'm not attempting to create talking points between SD and people who train "real kung fu", nor am I asserting that SD is a good or "authentic" martial art.

[kwaichang]

So lets say I am performing a form that GMT learned from a tape or book, and all that I learned from him was such. Not considering the lie of it. If I can do the form well and train diligently on the applications of it, and can fight with it and can produce snap, power and fluidity with it , and also , not that its important but also kick butt. Then other than the lies or stories what is the problem. ? KC

[Golden Arms]

So lets say I am performing a form that GMT learned from a tape or book, and all that I learned from him was such. Not considering the lie of it. If I can do the form well and train diligently on the applications of it, and can fight with it and can produce snap, power and fluidity with it , and also , not that its important but also kick butt. Then other than the lies or stories what is the problem. ? KC

Many arts have their own "engine" so to speak, as well as entry strategy, footwork, conditioning methods, theory, etc. Without these, they just become "moves", and many of these moves are shared between most martial systems. This does not mean that most of these systems use the same body methods or ways of using these moves. It seems many have no idea how deep some systems go. Nobody is going to learn Iron Wire or Jik Bo from a book or tape, no matter how many times they watch or copy. Context is everything.

Bruce, thanks for the response. My question was an honest one and it sounds like you are happy with what you got.

[Golden Arms]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think I've engaged in any deification and/or speaking for GMT. I am engaging in conjecture because GMT has shown himself to be an unreliable source of information, and I would like to sort out the correct origins, if there are any, of what I spent years doing in SD. Recent discussions on this forum have been very helpful.

I'd also like to know if there was actually a unique "core" Indonesian MA prior to the advent of both the "made up" stuff and anything taken from books, and whether it warrants further investigation.

I'm interested in the information. I'm not attempting to create talking points between SD and people who train "real kung fu", nor am I asserting that SD is a good or "authentic" martial art.
Most martial arts is a crapshoot so to speak regardless. We all know that it is for the most part completely un-regulated. If we accept that as fact, then we should also accept that there is some good stuff out there, as well as a ton of fakes, and misinformation (I can list mentally 5-10 fakes I have run across that have no business teaching or claiming Hung Gar or Pak Mei for example). It pays to do our homework.

[Shaolindynasty]

Many arts have their own "engine" so to speak, as well as entry strategy, footwork, conditioning methods, theory, etc. Without these, they just become "moves", and many of these moves are shared between most martial systems. This does not mean that most of these systems use the same body methods or ways of using these moves. It seems many have no idea how deep some systems go. Nobody is going to learn Iron Wire or Jik Bo from a book or tape, no matter how many times they watch or copy. Context is everything.


I tried to bring this up a few pages ago, even posted vids as examples of what I meant. The meaning of my post seemed to be lost and was never addressed

[Syn7]

GMT speaks 7 languages , I believe it is english spanish french german italian, more than one dialect of chinese not sure of the others , cant remember , not defending just sayin, busted again. KC:confused:


Wow, greatest man on earth!

So he's THE Shaolin grandmaster, Honored by the Temple because he's so awesome (and bought the plaque and paid for the space. Something any one of us can do) A nuclear physicist (without any paper to back it up). He knows seven language (but can't speak proper english after being surrounded by it for like 50+ years and can't pronounce words from his own culture.) What am I missing? Oh wait, didn't he design the mars rover and map the trajectory too? :rolleyes:


I have never seen anyone step on their own dick the way this guy does.

Thought I was on ignore, squirt? You miss me?


Kisses

[kwaichang]

Syn you really should have an MRI to see if yoiu have early onset Alzheimers. I addressed the ignore thing like 5 pages back. So admit you are wrong and you forgot and all the other BS you spout. Man I really feel sorry for you I will pray for you to have that MRI. KC

[Syn7]

However , I have witnessed the German , Spanish and of course english , and 2 dialects of chinese. not the Italian or french though. KC

I can get by in more than 7 languages. But if asked, my answer is that I speak 3. Why? Because I am FLUENT in 3. The rest I just know enough to get thru it. Besides, learn one romance language, and the rest are easy. You just need to put in the time.

****, you are full up on the kool aid!

Could I bull**** a wannabe disciple into believing that I speak 25? With ease, son. Now I see why you chose that screen name. Get real, grasshopper!

[Syn7]

Do you guys have any idea how crazy these conversations and talking points sound to someone that trains real kung fu? If I want to know more about something in Pak Mei I simply ask my Sifu, the same held true in Hung Gar (none of this conjecture, deification, and speaking for my Sifu is/was necessary).

The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" also comes to mind.

I would be genuinely curious what a long time SD'er would experience if they took just one of the styles/systems they claim to have learned and traveled to meet a legitimate teacher of said system. If what you are learning is authentic, then you should have no reservations about doing so, nor should you expect to be exposed to much that you have not already become familiar with. I do this whenever I get with Hung Gar and the Hakka martial arts.

A jack of all trades master of none is quite often more useful than a master of one!

I would be happy as a jack of all trades, master of ONE!

[Syn7]

I tried to bring this up a few pages ago, even posted vids as examples of what I meant. The meaning of my post seemed to be lost and was never addressed

Common to this thread. A very selective crowd.

I mean we had one idiot claim to train hung gar, then posts a hung gar vid but says it was CLF and it was so horrible. This is the level of intelligence you are dealing with. If you really want to make any points that stick, egg shells and kid gloves, my friend.

[kwaichang]

Syn posts 3 different posts to try to get someone to bite. So I guess this means he is bored and just wants to spar. So here goes. 1st why is it called Kid Gloves?
2. There are 2 types of MA on here. Those like Syn who talks alot and those like all the others that train alot. The reason for this is simple. Those who can do those who cant talk about it, right Syn?
3. Syn continues to pick this forum because all he is is words, and hot air. and by putting it out here he denies his own short comings in his self discipline and skills. He replaces punches with words and kicks with phrases. He talks as if he has been around the block a time or 2 about scars and all well BS to that. Calls people stupid and son and all that BS like what he says matters. So anyway he is what was known in real MA schools as a wannabe. Too lazy to train so he talks about it. THE END. KC

[OTD]

Good Martial Artists are a lot like sex and money.
Those that have It, Usually don't talk about It.

Just my .02 cents

OTD

Now !, Back to training, Teaching, Talking , Trolling........Whatever