Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Syn7]

Syn posts 3 different posts to try to get someone to bite. So I guess this means he is bored and just wants to spar. So here goes. 1st why is it called Kid Gloves?
2. There are 2 types of MA on here. Those like Syn who talks alot and those like all the others that train alot. The reason for this is simple. Those who can do those who cant talk about it, right Syn?
3. Syn continues to pick this forum because all he is is words, and hot air. and by putting it out here he denies his own short comings in his self discipline and skills. He replaces punches with words and kicks with phrases. He talks as if he has been around the block a time or 2 about scars and all well BS to that. Calls people stupid and son and all that BS like what he says matters. So anyway he is what was known in real MA schools as a wannabe. Too lazy to train so he talks about it. THE END. KC

You act like I have made any martial claims whatsoever. Assumptions like that are for morons! Clearly I never train, it's so obvious. Cause you know what I do with my days. Pulease. That all you got squirt?

[Syn7]

Good Martial Artists are a lot like sex and money.
Those that have It, Usually don't talk about It.

Just my .02 cents

OTD

Now !, Back to training, Teaching, Talking , Trolling........Whatever

So who, other than a few SD cats and HSK here have made ANY claims of what they can or can not do with their arts?


Weak....

[wenshu]

Good Martial Artists are a lot like sex and money.
Those that have It, Usually don't talk about It.

Hence the 1100 pages about Shaolin Do.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/qZdQvqsZ4og
PLEEZE KC

[Snipsky]

is this one of your students?

http://cdn1.horror-shop.com/out/pictures/generated/product/1/350_600_75/15894.jpg

[Empty_Cup]

is this one of your students?

http://cdn1.horror-shop.com/out/pictures/generated/product/1/350_600_75/15894.jpg

So brave.......

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/469622_10151209921752732_1388667749_o.jpg

[Syn7]

OH... So wait!!! The 5 animal form is from HSCLF?



:p

[hskwarrior]

OH... So wait!!! The 5 animal form is from HSCLF?

the 5 animal form i was *****in about shaolin do boostin is a hsclf 5 animal form exclusive to my lineage. yes :P

i'm just showin off my newfound photo shop skills. self taught. doing nice thangs

[goju]

Wow, greatest man on earth!

Someone needs to use their photoshop fu to shoop Sin as the dos equis man:D

[tattooedmonk]

the 5 animal form i was *****in about shaolin do boostin is a hsclf 5 animal form exclusive to my lineage. yes :P

i'm just showin off my newfound photo shop skills. self taught. doing nice thangsActually, its a Shaolin form that was absorbed in to the teachings of CLF. Its not CLF, but your version of it is.

The form is actually a Southern Shaolin form, the dialect was changed from the less common Cantonese to more common Mandarin.

Interesting to note ... http://www.whitelionsofshaolin.com/Lineage-YuenHai.htm

Have a great week everyone!

[hskwarrior]

Actually, its a Shaolin form that was absorbed in to the teachings of CLF. Its not CLF, but your version of it is.

we never claimed it was originally CLF. but till this very moment and till the end of this earth YOU nor anyone else will find it in anyone else's lineage LEGITIMATELY. we have ALWAYS stated it was CLF'tized.

and WHAT we DID say and keep saying is if you practice it and you weren't from my lineage there is only two ways for you and everyone else to learn it, the book or video and still you get those versions and not the original.

and even IF its roots were shaolin, it DOESN'T give anyone a license to boost it from the book or my lineage and repackage it.

a little note, if you want to know about my lineage, don't go anywhere else other than to my sifu to know. we are the current lineage holders of this lineage and i will state that much of that information (http://www.whitelionsofshaolin.com/Lineage-YuenHai.htm)was invented. my book will cover the truth about these people and my lineage. there is ALOT of info NOT found in that article but IS found in mine. but its up to you to believe who you want. the truth is the truth and that can't be changed. just like how Shaolin DO is a entity all unto itself. you are not part of a herd, tribe, or anything other than yourselves.

PS.....My lineages form isn't a SOUTHERN form. was NEVER a southern shaolin form. it BECAME southern by Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut disciples. you are practicing it OUR way.....not some southern shaolin Way as you have NOTHING to compare it to. therefore, labeling my lineages 5 animal form as ORIGINALLY SOUTHERN SHAOLIN is just one more LIE coming from the Shaolin Do schools.

[Snipsky]

I don't get it. with so much evidence to prove SD is imitation gung fu, why do they keep acting like its the real deal? TM doesn't seem to get it either.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't get it. with so much evidence to prove SD is imitation gung fu, why do they keep acting like its the real deal? TM doesn't seem to get it either.ugh, really? thats not my point. I guess ignorance is bliss. wanna have a real conversation or are you just going to be twat?!

[tattooedmonk]

we never claimed it was originally CLF. but till this very moment and till the end of this earth YOU nor anyone else will find it in anyone else's lineage LEGITIMATELY. we have ALWAYS stated it was CLF'tized.

and WHAT we DID say and keep saying is if you practice it and you weren't from my lineage there is only two ways for you and everyone else to learn it, the book or video and still you get those versions and not the original.

and even IF its roots were shaolin, it DOESN'T give anyone a license to boost it from the book or my lineage and repackage it.

a little note, if you want to know about my lineage, don't go anywhere else other than to my sifu to know. we are the current lineage holders of this lineage and i will state that much of that information (http://www.whitelionsofshaolin.com/Lineage-YuenHai.htm)was invented. my book will cover the truth about these people and my lineage. there is ALOT of info NOT found in that article but IS found in mine. but its up to you to believe who you want. the truth is the truth and that can't be changed. just like how Shaolin DO is a entity all unto itself. you are not part of a herd, tribe, or anything other than yourselves.

PS.....My lineages form isn't a SOUTHERN form. was NEVER a southern shaolin form. it BECAME southern by Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut disciples. you are practicing it OUR way.....not some southern shaolin Way as you have NOTHING to compare it to. therefore, labeling my lineages 5 animal form as ORIGINALLY SOUTHERN SHAOLIN is just one more LIE coming from the Shaolin Do schools.

uuuh....whatever, you said it is exclusive to CLF but is Southern Shaolin form...but then again CLF is originally a Southern Shaolin Style as well, right?

I am attempting to have a conversation with you one last time about this, are you going to be twat about this again too?

Once again blanket statments and assumptions, cant you get it through your thick skull that i am not trying to discredit you or your linegae ... I am researching TCMA and the origins of the form, thats it.

[tattooedmonk]

you are saying that you are the only group that still practices this inside and outside the temple proper?? how is that Shaolin lost such a remarkable form???

[tattooedmonk]

I find jakes version to be an abomination. its not the way that SKT taught it, not by a long shot. I have relaerned it from three people, all three taught it differently.

[Syn7]

Actually, its a Shaolin form that was absorbed in to the teachings of CLF. Its not CLF, but your version of it is.

The form is actually a Southern Shaolin form, the dialect was changed from the less common Cantonese to more common Mandarin.

Interesting to note ... http://www.whitelionsofshaolin.com/Lineage-YuenHai.htm

Have a great week everyone!

HSK gave the history of it way back in the beginning of the argument. Not a new revelation. His point wasn't the origin, rather who but HSCLF uses it now? Legitimately, that is.

Still having trouble with HTML5?

8 Days!

Then you can go learn PythonC and do some real work!!! After that you can explain to KC the difference between something like C language and machine code, coz he clearly doesn't get it.

[tattooedmonk]

what parts of the history, external/ internal methods etc is right or wrong in the book and others websites??? in your opinion??

[BroncoBB]

I don't get it. with so much evidence to prove SD is imitation gung fu, why do they keep acting like its the real deal? TM doesn't seem to get it either.

I've been watching this thread for sometime but haven't joined in out of sheer SD related exhaustion but decided to post just to let Snipsky know that not everybody is downing the Shaolin Kool-Aid...so to speak.

I've been in SD for 15 years and just began last year after a 2 year hiatus. However, before ,and at some points during, my time in SD I earned 2nd dan rankings in Okinawan Kempo and Kodokan Judo. While this rank in these arts puts me at barely past a rank amateur it does give me a little different viewpoint from your typical SD student.

I originally started SD because I wanted to learn something about chinese martial arts. However because a lot of what I was seeing did not really line up with what I was familiar with in the chinese arts and some of the wilder SD stories I came to a rather early determination that all was not as the long-winded horse kicking, internal master defeating, shaolin temple burning stories would have you believe. That being said I didn't quit. Why not?

For one thing there are no good CMA schools where I am. There is a Wing Chun school and some strange Wushu school that appears to be teaching something entirely unrecognizable (No they're not SD) and the Wing Chun school is pretty horrible. Also the instructor here is a genuine guy and pretty skilled in his own way. So I guess I've kept it up for the conditioning (Which is stellar if you commit) and for someone to fight. I did get a little fed up with the Soards a while back and went back on the competitive Judo circuit but I m getting to the age where it takes a solid week to recover from a good Judo match. I will admit though that the list of SD black belts worth fighting around here is real short but I have a good many friends in that list who I would miss so I guess there's a social aspect to my continual involvement as well.

I don't proliferate SD's stories and unlike a lot of them I am really big, when I teach, in teaching application and proficiency in defense although I will admit there's an awful a lot of my other technique that bleeds into that instruction. I don't know if it's any better because I know what's in the punch rather than just blindly drinking it but though it might be worth it to hear from someone who isn't entirely on the bandwagon.

That being said I'll continue to watch the thread and I'll be happy to add anything constructive.

[tattooedmonk]

well said! Keep training and working hard!

[JSE]

Sounds like you and I are in similar boats. Welcome to the circus!

[tattooedmonk]

if you want to be included in another forum send me an email address

[Snipsky]

uuuh....whatever, you said it is exclusive to CLF but is Southern Shaolin form...but then again CLF is originally a Southern Shaolin Style as well, right?

sorry, but frankie boy never said it was CLF. he has always said it was his lineages form. You are putting words in his mouth.

[hskwarrior]

uuuh....whatever, you said it is exclusive to CLF but is Southern Shaolin form...but then again CLF is originally a Southern Shaolin Style as well, right?

I am attempting to have a conversation with you one last time about this, are you going to be twat about this again too?

Once again blanket statments and assumptions, cant you get it through your thick skull that i am not trying to discredit you or your linegae ... I am researching TCMA and the origins of the form, thats it.

first, there's only one twat here....twatted monk.

secondly, i will make this statement once and for all. THE SHAOLIN 5 ANIMAL FORM FOUND AS DONE BY JAKE THE FAKE IS THE VERY ONE FOUND IN MY LINEAGE MINUS THE OBVIOUS REARRANGING OF SOME MOVES. NEITHER YOU, NOR THAT HAIRY MONKEY COULD EVER PRODUCE ANOTHER LINEAGE WHO AUTHENTICALLY TEACHES THE EXACT SAME FORM OUTSIDE OF SHAOLIN AS WELL AS CHINA, INDIA, AFRICA,MONGOLIA, OR ANYWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER. INCLUDING, MARS, VENUS, NOR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THIS UNIVERSE.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS A CLF FORM, THIS IS ALSO VERIFIED BY EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM.

I AM TELLING YOU THE ONLY SOURCE IN EXISTENCE FOR THAT EXACT FORM IS THE AMERICAN HUNG SING KWOON HQ'D IN SAN FRAN UNDER MY SIFU.

THERE IS NO BUTS, ANDS, IFS, MAYBES, ABOUT IT.

[Syn7]

first, there's only one twat here....twatted monk.

secondly, i will make this statement once and for all. THE SHAOLIN 5 ANIMAL FORM FOUND AS DONE BY JAKE THE FAKE IS THE VERY ONE FOUND IN MY LINEAGE MINUS THE OBVIOUS REARRANGING OF SOME MOVES. NEITHER YOU, NOR THAT HAIRY MONKEY COULD EVER PRODUCE ANOTHER LINEAGE WHO AUTHENTICALLY TEACHES THE EXACT SAME FORM OUTSIDE OF SHAOLIN AS WELL AS CHINA, INDIA, AFRICA,MONGOLIA, OR ANYWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER. INCLUDING, MARS, VENUS, NOR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THIS UNIVERSE.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS A CLF FORM, THIS IS ALSO VERIFIED BY EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM.

I AM TELLING YOU THE ONLY SOURCE IN EXISTENCE FOR THAT EXACT FORM IS THE AMERICAN HUNG SING KWOON HQ'D IN SAN FRAN UNDER MY SIFU.

THERE IS NO BUTS, ANDS, IFS, MAYBES, ABOUT IT.

Five animals as taught to lau bun by a grateful sifus wife. Her family style of shaolin origin. No worries bro, you have been very clear about that. Some people just don't read before they start whining out their cumdumpster!

[hskwarrior]

Five animals as taught to lau bun by a grateful sifus wife. Her family style of shaolin origin. No worries bro, you have been very clear about that. Some people just don't read before they start whining out their cumdumpster!

RIGHT. in the end, its just a form. they don't know how to use it, at least the way its supposed to be used.

[tattooedmonk]

sorry, but frankie boy never said it was CLF. he has always said it was his lineages form. You are putting words in his mouth. ok.... :rolleyes: If it is not CLF.... then what and/ or who is the source of the original form prior to it becoming a HSCLF form??

[hskwarrior]

ok.... If it is not CLF.... then what and/ or who is the source of the original form prior to it becoming a HSCLF form??

dude, i'll be nice here. one time. the five animal form came from Yuen Hai's wife, who learned it from her family as it was passed down and possibly created by her family. beyond that, no need to try. there is no form done by any legitimate kung fu lineages, shaolin monks, or anyone else outside of my lineage that is even close to this form.

my lineage isn't CHOY LEE FUT either. its HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT.

[tattooedmonk]

Five animals as taught to lau bun by a grateful sifus wife. Her family style of shaolin origin. No worries bro, you have been very clear about that. Some people just don't read before they start whining out their cumdumpster! ahh.... now we are getting somewhere, I am familiar with the subject...From the start all I wanted to do is discuss the details and facts.

Sifu's wife.....

Both her parents taught her the form, correct?

they were Shaolin Masters, correct?

....from which region , province, etc.?

at least 3 men are known to have created the form, correct?

:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

dude, i'll be nice here. one time. the five animal form came from Yuen Hai's wife, who learned it from her family as it was passed down and possibly created by her family. beyond that, no need to try. there is no form done by any legitimate kung fu lineages, shaolin monks, or anyone else outside of my lineage that is even close to this form.

my lineage isn't CHOY LEE FUT either. its HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT.thank you ! This was one of my points to begin with , thank you .

Then it is possible that this form was created by her family and seeing as they had "shaolin " training they called it a "shaolin " form? as per Kung Fu / Wushu tradition?

are you aware that there are 2 known books written in Chinese about this form?

If so, do you know if it was written in part by one of her family?

is this form hundreds of years old or is it more of a modern creation ?

[hskwarrior]

Then it is possible that this form was created by her family and seeing as they had "shaolin " training they called it a "shaolin " form? as per Kung Fu / Wushu tradition?

it is just a form. not a style in itself. the unique thing about this form is that its origins are alleged to be Northern, and has many northern elements. but, its focused on the southern five animals. perhaps when it was created it was done with the mindset of combining northern and southern together.


are you aware that there are 2 known books written in Chinese about this form?

i can't say anything until i see their form. move for move. section for section from beginning to end.

our form as far back as i can say is the family of yuen hai's wife. if the form is the same as ours, it would be interesting to know more info on it. however, i highly doubt they are the same.

[Syn7]

ahh.... now we are getting somewhere, I am familiar with the subject...From the start all I wanted to do is discuss the details and facts.

Sifu's wife.....

Both her parents taught her the form, correct?

they were Shaolin Masters, correct?

....from which region , province, etc.?

at least 3 men are known to have created the form, correct?

:cool:

MAN! he said that right up front at the very beginning. You act like this was just brought up. He said all this in like his second post! Lau Bun took the gift and adapted it to HIS CLF principles. No doubt the original form looks VERY different. That being said, if SD had gotten the original version from another family tree, it wouldn't have the CLF elements(even done poorly or wrong, they wouldn't be there). How you gonna explain that away?

[Syn7]

I find jakes version to be an abomination. its not the way that SKT taught it, not by a long shot. I have relaerned it from three people, all three taught it differently.

And I'm sure that all 3 have Hung Sing markers. If not, break out your celly and show us otherwise. Easy, no? Show me how a style unrelated to HSCLF in any way would have aquired HSCLF markers independently of HSCLF. Shouldn't be too hard for you, since you're a historian now. I'm sure your month of reading completely trumps HSK's 15 or whatever years of study and access to closed door information within his tong.

[hskwarrior]

Ad all 3 had Hung Sing markers. If not, break out your celly and show us otherwise. Easy, no? Show me how a style unrelated to HSCLF in any way would have aquired HSCLF markers independently of HSCLF. Shouldn't be too hard for you, since you're a historian now. I'm sure your month of reading completely trumps HSK's 15 or whatever years of study and access to closed door information within his tong.

HSCLF for 30 years. martial arts n me go back to my toddler days.

i too would like to see his demo of this form. watch it not even be the same one hahahaha.

[Syn7]

HSCLF for 30 years. martial arts n me go back to my toddler days.

i too would like to see his demo of this form. watch it not even be the same one hahahaha.

No I meant the historian studies. I assumed you picked that up in late teens or early 20's. Was I wrong?


Yeah let's see the 5 animal versions with ZERO HSCLF principles.

[Syn7]

i too would like to see his demo of this form. watch it not even be the same one hahahaha.

That would be awesome! All this arguing over two different things. Sweet!

[hskwarrior]

No I meant the historian studies. I assumed you picked that up in late teens or early 20's. Was I wrong?


Yeah let's see the 5 animal versions with ZERO HSCLF principles.

oh yeah about 20 years of history research. i started the history quest just after mid 90's. my whole point for being on this forum back then was to shake the CLF tree to see what other pieces of history i might have missed.

my nemesis here done me a huge justice with all of his contesting because i found things about our history no on in CLF can answer today.

[Syn7]

Making a case has a great way of expanding your own views. Nothing wrong with that. I change and adapt all the time when new datasets are entered into the equation.

[Syn7]

oh yeah about 20 years of history research. i started the history quest just after mid 90's. my whole point for being on this forum back then was to shake the CLF tree to see what other pieces of history i might have missed.

my nemesis here done me a huge justice with all of his contesting because i found things about our history no on in CLF can answer today.

nemesis implies he is somewhat on your level or a force of retribution. I think whining lil ***** is more apt! ;) Although, you may be HIS nemesis. He eeds to be punished!!! :D

But hey, to be fair, he has until Xmas to make his case. So I will wait. Unless he has HTML5 problems to conveniently put it off longer. Even though html5 is the easiest thing in the world to learn.

Personally, I think he's just making a fan site. We'll see.

[hskwarrior]

i won't lie, HTOWN dragon gave me my first lead via a book on the triad. this lead me to the next thing and then the next until i found one book that contained the answer to how we got our hung sing name.

[Syn7]

gotta start somewhere. I was into MA's as a kid, but it wasn't till a good friend brought some knowledge from his home and shared did I ever really get into the broader history and principles of that aspect of the culture. So even tho it wasn't the best knowledge, had it not happened, I may have ended up going to temple kung fu for a few years. For this I am thankful!

[hskwarrior]

nemesis implies he is somewhat on your level or a force of retribution. I think whining lil ***** is more apt!

But hey, to be fair, he has until Xmas to make his case. So I will wait. Unless he has HTML5 problems to conveniently put it off longer. Even though html5 is the easiest thing in the world to learn.

Personally, I think he's just making a fan site. We'll see.

whatever it was, it drove me to find the truth. secretly i appreciate what he did.

and the monk has had a long time to produce something. but since the world is ending is 4 days.....he has till xmas.

[RJ797]

I can’t believe we are still discussing this 5 Animal Form. HSK made the valid point that the 5-Animal Form he witnessed Jake mangling on YouTube clearly came from his lineage. There is no doubt that Sin The’ purchased Doc Fai Wong’s book and then taught the form to his students. There is also no doubt that Sin The failed to mention he had taken the form from the book. Whether he said he got it from Ie Chang Ming or never said where he got it from I do not know.

This is not an isolated incident or amazing coincidence - it just one of the countless forms Sin The has taught over the years that he took out of a book and “repackaged”

Sin The’s actions are indefensible. Any SD person who perpetuates the lies told by Sin The regarding this form or many others in light of the available evidence is as guilty as Sin The is of dishonest behavior.

However, there is nothing wrong with continuing to practice whatever version someone might have of this form. Just don’t say Su Kong learned it at the Temple and passed it on to Ie Chang Ming who taught it to Sin The.

[hskwarrior]

However, there is nothing wrong with continuing to practice whatever version someone might have of this form. Just don’t say Su Kong learned it at the Temple and passed it on to Ie Chang Ming who taught it to Sin The.

that right there!

i know we can't erase what happened. but the above is all i ask.

[OldandUsed]

Makes sense.

[tattooedmonk]

I can’t believe we are still discussing this 5 Animal Form. :eek::D:cool:

.... there is nothing wrong with continuing to practice whatever version someone might have of this form. Just don’t say Su Kong learned it at the Temple and passed it on to Ie Chang Ming who taught it to Sin The.agreed.

I cant imagine anyone saying that....

well, actually I can imagine some people saying that.:rolleyes::cool:

my questions are simple,why are there two chinese books written on this EXACT form dating more than 50 and 100 years back?

why is it that HSCLF is the only school that supossedly teaches this rare SHAOLIN form legitimately and why arent there anySHAOLIN schools that teach it legitmately, if in fact, it is a rare and authentic SHAOLIN form??

How would all of SHAOLIN lose such a treasure??

Frank , maybe you should talk to your fellow CLF ers a little more about their history and facts, because your" bruthas" are spewing all sorts of conflicting nonsense all over the net and world.

Why not clean up the history and facts of CLF ?? it seems that if you are so highly regarded and are the real dealz and all that, then you should be helping them out instead, just an idea.:cool:

[hskwarrior]

my questions are simple,why are there two chinese books written on this exact form dating more than 50 and 100 years back?

post the link to the book


why is it that HSCLF is the only school that supossedly teaches this rare SHAOLIN form legitimately and why arent there anySHAOLIN schools that teach it legitmately, if in fact, it is a rare and authentic SHAOLIN form??

you don't sound so confident in this statement, which indicates alot of things.

Post the book. simple solution.


Frank , maybe you should talk to your fellow CLF ers a little more about their history and facts, because your" bruthas" are spewing all sorts of conflicting nonsense all over the net and world.

you're a lot late to that game. they can say whatever they want about THEIR history. I know mine. YOU don't practice CLF so don't worry about our history accounts. pls, focus on SD, only.


Why not clean up the history and facts of CLF ?? it seems that if you are so highly regarded and are the real dealz and all that, then you should be helping them out instead, just an idea.

i'm not chan family CLF. my history is different than theirs. their info about US is wrong. so, i'm already on it, been on it. i can't make others do what they don't want to do.


How would all of SHAOLIN lose such a treasure??

that's because YOU are so wishing it to BE a Shaolin Form so YOU can claim "WE ARE SHAOLIN, THEREFORE THIS FORM BELONGS TO US ALSO".....now thats some funny sh1t right there. we've always stated it was a family form passed down from her parents. the ONLY one pushing the SHAOLIN side of it was DOC FAI.......ONLY.

you are only hoping to have a connection to "such a treasure". you don't. shaolin may have, but NOT anymore.

[tattooedmonk]

post the link to the book



you don't sound so confident in this statement, which indicates alot of things.

Post the book. simple solution.



you're a lot late to that game. they can say whatever they want about THEIR history. I know mine. YOU don't practice CLF so don't worry about our history accounts. pls, focus on SD, only.



i'm not chan family CLF. my history is different than theirs. their info about US is wrong. so, i'm already on it, been on it. i can't make others do what they don't want to do.



that's because YOU are so wishing it to BE a Shaolin Form so YOU can claim "WE ARE SHAOLIN, THEREFORE THIS FORM BELONGS TO US ALSO".....now thats some funny sh1t right there. we've always stated it was a family form passed down from her parents. the ONLY one pushing the SHAOLIN side of it was DOC FAI.......ONLY.

you are only hoping to have a connection to "such a treasure". you don't. shaolin may have, but NOT anymore.Are you really this stupid?

This is why we only get so far with the discussion. I cant caste pearls before the swine.

why is it so hard to establish and maintain any known facts about Shaooiln , CLF and this form and have a discussion, because you are twat and cant get the sand out of your vagina , thanks frank for being so honest.:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

are you really this stupid?

This is why we only get so far with the discussion. I cant caste pearls before the swine.

Why is it so hard to establish and maintain any known facts about shaooiln , clf and this form and have a discussion, because you are twat and cant get the sand out of your vagina , thanks frank for being so honest.

look you b1tch ass nacka.....you are as low down as sin the for fooling all of you non chinese. Go suck a d1ck, i hear you're great at that. I heard some real disgusting things about you and your sexual deviance. for the sake of others, i won't insult the victims.

if i was a parent i'd take my student out of your school IMMEDIATELY.

[Snipsky]

are you really this stupid?

This is why we only get so far with the discussion. I cant caste pearls before the swine.

Why is it so hard to establish and maintain any known facts about shaooiln , clf and this form and have a discussion, because you are twat and cant get the sand out of your vagina , thanks frank for being so honest.

OMG. this person (can i say that) is really more bad than the scums of the earth.
i'd really be embarrass if i learn kung fu from you. you are scummy and dummy.

[hskwarrior]

OMG. this person (can i say that) is really more bad than the scums of the earth.
i'd really be embarrass if i learn kung fu from you. you are scummy and dummy.

he isn't tough or a fighter. he's bitter. all bitter betties act like he does. every single one of them. ALL BARK, NO BITE. THE ONE WHO BARKS THE LOUDEST IS SWEETER THAN LEMONADE.

[tattooedmonk]

merry christmas to you too.

I see someone brought the goose and the ham for christmas dinner...

enjoy, I am a vegan.

[hskwarrior]

enjoy, i am a vegan.

of course you are. Lmao.

[Empty_Cup]

... You don't practice sd so don't worry about our history accounts. Pls, focus on sd, only.


ftfy.........

[Syn7]

HSCLF never stole a thing from SD. You feel he has no right to be annoyed by this?

I mean we have all spent years brushing off things like SD. Stripmall kung fu is like a running joke to many of us. But nobody really cared that much till yall "tried" to assert yourselves and force some weak form of legitimacy into the collective consciousness. There is a reason why everyone laughs at SD but very few laugh at something like HSCLF.

But no, I'm sure the 99% are dead wrong and you 1% are just being wronged to death!!! Must be it. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

HSCLF never stole a thing from SD. You feel he has no right to be annoyed by this?

I mean we have all spent years brushing off things like SD. Stripmall kung fu is like a running joke to many of us. But nobody really cared that much till yall "tried" to assert yourselves and force some weak form of legitimacy into the collective consciousness. There is a reason why everyone laughs at SD but very few laugh at something like HSCLF.

bro, i've seen enough of SD to know they are no threat to HSCLF aside from boosting forms. and you're right, no one cared about SD till they tried to claim legitimacy to Shaolin.

a can of worms was opened when i found out they had stolen our form. but like i said, they are clueless to its real purpose.

[Empty_Cup]

...

a can of worms was opened when i found out they had stolen our form. but like i said, they are clueless to its real purpose.

Saying this same message over and over again (even if in larger and bolder font) doesn't make it so.

I really have no particular interest in this form but your arguments don't really hold water IMO. TTM has offered an alternative backstory to this form that sounds like it has just as much to it as your story.

[hskwarrior]

Saying this same message over and over again (even if in larger and bolder font) doesn't make it so.

ok. happy? :confused:


I really have no particular interest in this form but your arguments don't really hold water IMO. TTM has offered an alternative backstory to this form that sounds like it has just as much to it as your story.

yet you have absolutely ZERO evidence to refute it however. so, again. happy? and to be completely honest, since i know the source of my form, i couldn't care less about what outsiders think about it. i will call out all liars and frauds without fear of recourse. ever.

[OldandUsed]

ok, so skt has presented some made up material, some borrowed and modified material and some material he took from other systems and presented as something handed down from the mount and called it shaolin. all of you "legitimate" gung fu guys laugh at sd and call sd-ers wannabes and do not feel sd community at large deserves any respect. is that about it? well, ok, you got it. so what?

many of us on this thread in this forum have no argument about that or any of the opinions held by the "legitimate" gung fu community, we just do not care.

from my first session with skt this was referred to as karate. never heard skt refer to what was presented as gung fu, ever. the signs, the handouts were all sin the' karate club. did he tell some tall tales about the background and the material? yup, and he said it was reputed/legend. did any of us truly believe what he said? well, maybe a few bought that stuff, but the majority of us just took it as entertainment.

all of the bickering and bad-mouthing bs is distasteful and serves no purpose. hsk, you feel wronged because something you did not develop, but learned from your association with your sifu, has been purloined by skt and taught to some of his students. ok, you have been wronged. you have a group apology. now get over it.

the rest of you guys that want to bash sd, go find another thread/forum and dedicate it to sd bashing. jeez, give it a fricking rest.

I left sd long ago, still practice a lot of the material and enjoy chatting with some of the folks that I trained with. I have no love for many of the sd leaders as I did not care for the way they ran things, spread bs or outright lied to me. some of it was personal and I took it as such. that does not change history or the fact I was a mamber of that group for over 30 years. some of the people in that group are outstanding people and some are talented martial artists. I am not into name calling or running down someone else just to make myself feel better. I had hoped the adults in here would be better than to stoop to such behavior. some of you guys need to grow up.

[hskwarrior]

from my first session with skt this was referred to as karate. never heard skt refer to what was presented as gung fu, ever.

so why do people get their panties in a bunch when i say what SD does is prettified KARATE again???????:confused::confused:


you have a group apology. now get over it.

so YOU are designated to speak for Sin The and the clan? they appointed you to speak for them?:confused::confused::confused:


I left sd long ago, still practice a lot of the material and enjoy chatting with some of the folks that I trained with. I have no love for many of the sd leaders as I did not care for the way they ran things, spread bs or outright lied to me. some of it was personal and I took it as such. that does not change history or the fact I was a mamber of that group for over 30 years. some of the people in that group are outstanding people and some are talented martial artists. I am not into name calling or running down someone else just to make myself feel better. I had hoped the adults in here would be better than to stoop to such behavior. some of you guys need to grow up.

thats why TM's new forum is the prime place for you guys to discuss your SD stuff.

[OldandUsed]

if anyone has their panties in a bunch, it is you. i never picked up the 5 animal form and still am not interested in it, but i do not put down someone for what they choose to practice. if you do not want people picking it up except from your class, don't put it in a book or video and sell it.

no, i have not been appointed anything, just as you have not been appointed the spokesman for the gung fu community to harrange the sd people.

my effort was directed towards putting out there that the vast majority of us simply do not care what others think of us. we do not answer to you guys and what you say does not have any bearing on what we do, other than be an irritant much like flies at a picnic.

i plan on participating in the other forum.

[hskwarrior]

if anyone has their panties in a bunch, it is you. i never picked up the 5 animal form and still am not interested in it, but i do not put down someone for what they choose to practice. if you do not want people picking it up except from your class, don't put it in a book or video and sell it.


so if you have nothing to do with it, why is YOUR panties in a bunch? i'm glad you're not interested in it, its not meant for you. look, if you want to practice Kungarate, thats your choice. but freedom of speech. like that one sucka who TRIED to insult my sifu, i as well as HE knew he was full of sh1t.

your LAST sentence is exactly the reason why YOU GUYS disgust me, cause YOU for one don't see the problem with learning something from a book, YOU don't see anything wrong with repacking it and reselling it. lastly, DFW printed that book without ever asking or checking it its ok with us. WE have never put anything in a book as of yet.

what i think i'm going to do is like YOU. I'm going to steal some SD material, give it a new name and history including performing it better than ANY OF YOU. I might even claim that hairy monkey guy as my own lineage and tell the world you guys are the straight up frauds that you stole the history and stuff from me.......

nah, what the fuk was i thinkin.....i'd never get caught practicing fake sh1t

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/joCZx.gif

[hskwarrior]

http://i.imgur.com/joCZx.gif

i'm reporting you for animal cruelty. LOLL

[BroncoBB]

so if you have nothing to do with it, why is YOUR panties in a bunch? i'm glad you're not interested in it, its not meant for you. look, if you want to practice Kungarate, thats your choice. but freedom of speech. like that one sucka who TRIED to insult my sifu, i as well as HE knew he was full of sh1t.

your LAST sentence is exactly the reason why YOU GUYS disgust me, cause YOU for one don't see the problem with learning something from a book, YOU don't see anything wrong with repacking it and reselling it. lastly, DFW printed that book without ever asking or checking it its ok with us. WE have never put anything in a book as of yet.

what i think i'm going to do is like YOU. I'm going to steal some SD material, give it a new name and history including performing it better than ANY OF YOU. I might even claim that hairy monkey guy as my own lineage and tell the world you guys are the straight up frauds that you stole the history and stuff from me.......

nah, what the fuk was i thinkin.....i'd never get caught practicing fake sh1t

Well if it makes you feel any better I do see the problem with it. If SKT lifted the form from someone else (and it's entirely possible he did) than to teach and represent it as exclusive and original temple material is at best disrespectful and intentionally deceptive. I've only seen the form once and that was 10-12 years ago. Boise teaches it but I am unable to do it justice and have not really had any interest in adding another form to an overblown repertoire.

When you combine that problem with the fact that SKT and others within Shaolin Do have pursued legal action against people teaching the art the situation becomes rather pathetic. If the form is original to CLF ("If" not being used in a context of speculative but merely alluding to the fact that I don't know enough about the form to speculate where it came from) then the correct thing to do would be to call it what it is and preferably to gain permission to teach it (I know....not happening). Problem is to go that route would tear apart the whole house of cards the Shaolin-Do mythos is based on. It might be right but we all know it won't happen. Like I said HSK, I don't teach it but if I ever get to the point where I do maybe some research and reliable education will help.

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not? Hiang The teaches a wide variety of material that follows the SD line closely and th question is how much of this they learned jointly in Indonesia and how much might have been pieced togather after they came to the states.

To another point. What do you all think will happen when SKT isn't around? The schools have already fragmented and as TTM said he's seen 3 different versions of that 5 Animal form. I can tell you from personal experience that students from the western schools look vastly different in their execution of material and that quality varies widely depending on interest level and ability of instructors. The beign said when SKT goes does a cohesive shaolin-do system go with him?

Also guys I'm fine with good discussion and I believe I have shown willingness to concede when someone has a point. I won't call you names and I won't enter into an argument just to stand ridgidly on one side. If we disagree then we do and that's fine. All I ask is that we stay civil and try to learn from each other.

Finally I do know where a lot of you are coming from. With 10 years of judo behind me I don't believe there's anything funnier than a Shaolin-do "down and ground fighting" class.

[hskwarrior]

Well if it makes you feel any better I do see the problem with it. If SKT lifted the form from someone else (and it's entirely possible he did) than to teach and represent it as exclusive and original temple material is at best disrespectful and intentionally deceptive. I've only seen the form once and that was 10-12 years ago. Boise teaches it but I am unable to do it justice and have not really had any interest in adding another form to an overblown repertoire.

When you combine that problem with the fact that SKT and others within Shaolin Do have pursued legal action against people teaching the art the situation becomes rather pathetic. If the form is original to CLF ("If" not being used in a context of speculative but merely alluding to the fact that I don't know enough about the form to speculate where it came from) then the correct thing to do would be to call it what it is and preferably to gain permission to teach it (I know....not happening). Problem is to go that route would tear apart the whole house of cards the Shaolin-Do mythos is based on. It might be right but we all know it won't happen. Like I said HSK, I don't teach it but if I ever get to the point where I do maybe some research and reliable education will help.

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not? Hiang The teaches a wide variety of material that follows the SD line closely and th question is how much of this they learned jointly in Indonesia and how much might have been pieced togather after they came to the states.

To another point. What do you all think will happen when SKT isn't around? The schools have already fragmented and as TTM said he's seen 3 different versions of that 5 Animal form. I can tell you from personal experience that students from the western schools look vastly different in their execution of material and that quality varies widely depending on interest level and ability of instructors. The beign said when SKT goes does a cohesive shaolin-do system go with him?

Also guys I'm fine with good discussion and I believe I have shown willingness to concede when someone has a point. I won't call you names and I won't enter into an argument just to stand ridgidly on one side. If we disagree then we do and that's fine. All I ask is that we stay civil and try to learn from each other.

Finally I do know where a lot of you are coming from. With 10 years of judo behind me I don't believe there's anything funnier than a Shaolin-do "down and ground fighting" class.

thanks bro. nicely said.

[sean_stonehart]

To another point. There are forms within the system that are widely looked at as blatantly copied. 5 animal appears to be one. What SD refers to as the Tai Chi 24 posture combined appears to be another as well as 7 star praying mantis. Yang style Tai Chi could of course be easily pilfered. Are there any others that anyone is aware of? There is a measure of debate in the system by a few of us who have accepted that the system background is questionable about whether some of it has some legitemacy or not?

"Yang 64" - Cheng Man Ching's 37
"Yang 24" - PRC 24
"Classical Pakua" - Jiang Rong Qiao's Bagua
Chen Taiji - Chen Xinjia Yilu
Xingyi 5 Roads, 12 Animals, Linkage, Stick, Sword
Hua To's 5 Animal Play
Hua Quan 1-4, Two Man Sets #1 & #2
Tiger Crane Duet - Hung Ga
Shaolin 5 Animals - Choy Lee Fut
Entwine Dragon Stick - Tian Shan Pai
"Pick & Play Hands" - Zhai Yao Si Lu (not sure of the PM Branch)
Thrust Fist - Cha Chui
Crushing Step - Bung Bo
White Ape Comes Out of Cave - Pak Yuen Chut Dong
Springy Legs - Tam Toi (not sure which version)

Other sets of dubious origin but I can't place them so I'm not saying anything regarding them

Chain Whip
4 Spears at 1st black
Li Kwei Axes
Chain Whip Broadsword set

I know some of those have been pointed by Bruce & others in some set of books, but I haven't seen them personally. However the first set of forms listed, I have seen up close & personal (or knew the SD version) & they are clearly from elsewhere uncredited & unacknowledged.

[bodhi warrior]

"Yang 64" - Cheng Man Ching's 37
"Yang 24" - PRC 24
"Classical Pakua" - Jiang Rong Qiao's Bagua
Chen Taiji - Chen Xinjia Yilu
Xingyi 5 Roads, 12 Animals, Linkage, Stick, Sword
Hua To's 5 Animal Play
Hua Quan 1-4, Two Man Sets #1 & #2
Tiger Crane Duet - Hung Ga
Shaolin 5 Animals - Choy Lee Fut
Entwine Dragon Stick - Tian Shan Pai
"Pick & Play Hands" - Zhai Yao Si Lu (not sure of the PM Branch)
Thrust Fist - Cha Chui
Crushing Step - Bung Bo
White Ape Comes Out of Cave - Pak Yuen Chut Dong
Springy Legs - Tam Toi (not sure which version)

Other sets of dubious origin but I can't place them so I'm not saying anything regarding them

Chain Whip
4 Spears at 1st black
Li Kwei Axes
Chain Whip Broadsword set

I know some of those have been pointed by Bruce & others in some set of books, but I haven't seen them personally. However the first set of forms listed, I have seen up close & personal (or knew the SD version) & they are clearly from elsewhere uncredited & unacknowledged.

I agree with all of these but with a few exceptions. They are taichi64, classical pakua, hsing ie, but I can see how they may have been learned from books.
I know the chain whip as Hiang teaches looked pretty legit having seen him perform it.

[Syn7]

Saying this same message over and over again (even if in larger and bolder font) doesn't make it so.

I really have no particular interest in this form but your arguments don't really hold water IMO. TTM has offered an alternative backstory to this form that sounds like it has just as much to it as your story.

TTM can't even explain why his "Shaolin" form has HSCLF elements. It's pretty obvious man.

But, to be fair, he has till xmas. No excuses. He's been talking trash about this research for awhile now. More than enough time to produce something, anything, that would explain away the fact that SD is using HSCLF elements when they have ZERO connection to HSCLF.

Don't think people don't notice that you guys conveniently gloss over this VERY OBVIOUS fact! It's just that simple. There is NO way HSCLF would be visible in this form if your version was from a branch that separated off the line before Lau Bun. It's proof. Very obvious and reliable proof.

If I can see the HSCLF in Jakes form(as bad as it is) then surely somebody who actually knows HSCLF can break it right down for you as to what is truly unique to HSCLF that "magically" made into SD's sad version of the form.


Keep clawing at the moon, son. It's totally workin' out for ya!

We all know people who are stubborn and dead wrong who walk around with their heads high anyways. Pride has made you weak. You're moving away from logic, not towards it. Occams razor! Learn it. Understand it. Recognize!!!!!!

[Syn7]

ok, so skt has presented some made up material, some borrowed and modified material and some material he took from other systems and presented as something handed down from the mount and called it shaolin. all of you "legitimate" gung fu guys laugh at sd and call sd-ers wannabes and do not feel sd community at large deserves any respect. is that about it? well, ok, you got it. so what?

many of us on this thread in this forum have no argument about that or any of the opinions held by the "legitimate" gung fu community, we just do not care.

from my first session with skt this was referred to as karate. never heard skt refer to what was presented as gung fu, ever. the signs, the handouts were all sin the' karate club. did he tell some tall tales about the background and the material? yup, and he said it was reputed/legend. did any of us truly believe what he said? well, maybe a few bought that stuff, but the majority of us just took it as entertainment.

all of the bickering and bad-mouthing bs is distasteful and serves no purpose. hsk, you feel wronged because something you did not develop, but learned from your association with your sifu, has been purloined by skt and taught to some of his students. ok, you have been wronged. you have a group apology. now get over it.

the rest of you guys that want to bash sd, go find another thread/forum and dedicate it to sd bashing. jeez, give it a fricking rest.

I left sd long ago, still practice a lot of the material and enjoy chatting with some of the folks that I trained with. I have no love for many of the sd leaders as I did not care for the way they ran things, spread bs or outright lied to me. some of it was personal and I took it as such. that does not change history or the fact I was a mamber of that group for over 30 years. some of the people in that group are outstanding people and some are talented martial artists. I am not into name calling or running down someone else just to make myself feel better. I had hoped the adults in here would be better than to stoop to such behavior. some of you guys need to grow up.


No, he has gotten an apology from a small minority of the SD posters here and resistance from even more. If you don't want to talk about it then back off. You step into the middle of a fist fight and it's your own fault when you catch a stray. Or even a well aimed intentional shot. You did that to yourself. So you agree, what happened was wrong. Help your boys understand that, or if you really don't care back the **** off already. Be the man you think everyone else should be and stfu and watch the game already!


That being said. I think you seem like a pretty nice guy and I'm sorry if any of this hurts you. But if you are telling the truth, it doesn't. So let it be. Pick a side or back off.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM can't even explain why his "Shaolin" form has HSCLF elements. It's pretty obvious man.

But, to be fair, he has till xmas. No excuses. He's been talking trash about this research for awhile now. More than enough time to produce something, anything, that would explain away the fact that SD is using HSCLF elements when they have ZERO connection to HSCLF.

Don't think people don't notice that you guys conveniently gloss over this VERY OBVIOUS fact! It's just that simple. There is NO way HSCLF would be visible in this form if your version was from a branch that separated off the line before Lau Bun. It's proof. Very obvious and reliable proof.

If I can see the HSCLF in Jakes form(as bad as it is) then surely somebody who actually knows HSCLF can break it right down for you as to what is truly unique to HSCLF that "magically" made into SD's sad version of the form.


Keep clawing at the moon, son. It's totally workin' out for ya!

We all know people who are stubborn and dead wrong who walk around with their heads high anyways. Pride has made you weak. You're moving away from logic, not towards it. Occams razor! Learn it. Understand it. Recognize!!!!!!you keep proving everyday why most people should keep their opinions to themselves.:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

No, he has gotten an apology from a small minority of the SD posters here and resistance from even more. If you don't want to talk about it then back off. You step into the middle of a fist fight and it's your own fault when you catch a stray. Or even a well aimed intentional shot. You did that to yourself. So you agree, what happened was wrong. Help your boys understand that, or if you really don't care back the **** off already. Be the man you think everyone else should be and stfu and watch the game already!


That being said. I think you seem like a pretty nice guy and I'm sorry if any of this hurts you. But if you are telling the truth, it doesn't. So let it be. Pick a side or back off.

Once again another post pointing the way.

[Syn7]

you keep proving everyday why most people should keep their opinions to themselves.:rolleyes:

And again you side step the obvious question. Answer it already. Show me YOUR version and show me why there are no HSCLF elements. Step up, man up.

[hskwarrior]

And again you side step the obvious question. Answer it already. Show me YOUR version and show me why there are no HSCLF elements. Step up, man up.

if the person had anything of worth to this issue he would have posted it by now. he has zero.

i think he's afraid he wioll get laughed at. he won't post anything

[Syn7]

I think he might. I suspect an HTML excuse. But I think he has something he thinks is worth it. Doubt it will explain HSCLF fundamentals in a non related "Shaolin" form. Notice how he's mouthy then disappears when pushed to answer one simple question. From now on I'm not going to give him anything to focus on but that question. He can keep sidestepping, but it just gets more and more obvious.

Even if this form does exist from a more direct Shaolin lineage, he still can't explain why he knows Lau Buns unique version. I've seen the real and I've seen Jakes. CLEARLY Jakes has HSCLF elements, as poor as it is. ANd he learned his from the same lineage. So unless TTM can show a version of 5 animals that he learned from Sin The's line without HSCLF principles, he has no room to work with.

[sean_stonehart]

I agree with all of these but with a few exceptions. They are taichi64, classical pakua, hsing ie, but I can see how they may have been learned from books.
I know the chain whip as Hiang teaches looked pretty legit having seen him perform it.

What do you mean about exceptions? Curious...

[RJ797]

Sean's list is not correct. Not because he lists forms that Sin The might have actually learned from Ie Chang Ming. Because he only lists a small percentage.

Everything on Sean's list obviously came from books and videos as well as many more.

The material from white belt to 2nd black (with the exception of Tai Chi and Pa Kua) is most likely things Sin The acquired in Indonesia.

Everything after that is either from books or material Sin The hadn't practiced for years and reconstructed from notes - so it may as well have been from books or videos.

[Kellen Bassette]

Pick a side or back off.

Can't I just get some popcorn and enjoy the show? :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

I think he might. I suspect an HTML excuse. But I think he has something he thinks is worth it. Doubt it will explain HSCLF fundamentals in a non related "Shaolin" form. Notice how he's mouthy then disappears when pushed to answer one simple question. From now on I'm not going to give him anything to focus on but that question. He can keep sidestepping, but it just gets more and more obvious.

Even if this form does exist from a more direct Shaolin lineage, he still can't explain why he knows Lau Buns unique version. I've seen the real and I've seen Jakes. CLEARLY Jakes has HSCLF elements, as poor as it is. ANd he learned his from the same lineage. So unless TTM can show a version of 5 animals that he learned from Sin The's line without HSCLF principles, he has no room to work with.

yup yup yuppers

[sean_stonehart]

Sean's list is not correct. Not because he lists forms that Sin The might have actually learned from Ie Chang Ming. Because he only lists a small percentage.

Everything on Sean's list obviously came from books and videos as well as many more.

The material from white belt to 2nd black (with the exception of Tai Chi and Pa Kua) is most likely things Sin The acquired in Indonesia.

Everything after that is either from books or material Sin The hadn't practiced for years and reconstructed from notes - so it may as well have been from books or videos.

Thanks I think??

But like I said... these were things I saw directly that are not credited or acknowledged properly. There could be (probably is) more things that I did not see directly or could put a finger on originating elsewhere before being ... pilfered.

[BroncoBB]

Sean's list is not correct. Not because he lists forms that Sin The might have actually learned from Ie Chang Ming. Because he only lists a small percentage.

Everything on Sean's list obviously came from books and videos as well as many more.

The material from white belt to 2nd black (with the exception of Tai Chi and Pa Kua) is most likely things Sin The acquired in Indonesia.

Everything after that is either from books or material Sin The hadn't practiced for years and reconstructed from notes - so it may as well have been from books or videos.

So RJ I've read Hiang's curriculum list and it has a number of things on it that have not been taught in the SD system below 2nd degree or anywhere else. Would you say this is because Hiang is working the same scam or did he get more material from Ie Chang Ming? This is another big yet silent debate in the SD system is that Hiang is somehow illegitimate. Yet I have heard arguments that Hiang teaches the full Tai Peng system becuase he learned it from a contemporary of Ie Chan Ming's and that the reason SKT doesn't teach it is that he doesn't know it and Hiang obviously won't teach it to him. I'm wondering if this is true of some of Hiang's other material or if he's just reading different books than SKT?

As far as Stone's list I can't believe I left out Tiger/Crane. Just finished reviewing that one. I did look at Rydberg's (Or Mace or whatever he calls himself these days) form and I was rather unimpressed. I'm not God's gift to forms but the lack of focused energy and rooting were obvious. God help his joints the way he extends everything. It started me thinking though. I've looked at that form online a lot and it resembles the Hung Gar form in a few minor areas only. It might be that it's so butchered I can't pick out the similarities and of course SD will say it's the older, original, and far better version of the form. Anyones thought as to whether it's just been chopped up pretty bad but the same form, if it's not even the tiger/crane form, or if it's been fragmented and taught so many different ways that what we have left is an evolved (or devolved) SD original.

In a way I guess it's a rather morbid curiosity for me to find just how fake is this thing I've invested 15 years into?

By the way if it interests any of you SD has started teaching pressure point theory within the past few years. Funny thing is it was virtually never talked about when I started and I was nearly a third degree before it was even mentioned. The theory they are teaching looks suspiciously like the stuff Dillman teaches and appears to miss a few philosophical points that are normally parts of chinese pressure point work. It is decidedly Japanese in flavor. I've mentioned my original background in Okinawan karate and I've had some exposure to Dillman. If they start teaching "knock outs" I'll know for sure.

[Syn7]

Can't I just get some popcorn and enjoy the show? :rolleyes:

HellzJyeah!

And smack around the rest of the spectators when they try to speak and whine about how they have already made concessions!




So anyways. For those too stupid to concede the obvious.... If SD's 5 Animals is indeed from another line, how did HSCLF(not CLF) elements make it into Sin Thes version? Anyone???

[bodhi warrior]

What do you mean about exceptions? Curious...

I just meant that I agree all those forms you listed were definetly learned from a media source except maybe tc64, classical pakua, hsing ie. But I do think its possible he got those 3 from books, I'm just not sure.

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=BroncoBB;1202753]So RJ I've read Hiang's curriculum list and it has a number of things on it that have not been taught in the SD system below 2nd degree or anywhere else. Would you say this is because Hiang is working the same scam or did he get more material from Ie Chang Ming? This is another big yet silent debate in the SD system is that Hiang is somehow illegitimate. Yet I have heard arguments that Hiang teaches the full Tai Peng system becuase he learned it from a contemporary of Ie Chan Ming's and that the reason SKT doesn't teach it is that he doesn't know it and Hiang obviously won't teach it to him. I'm wondering if this is true of some of Hiang's other material or if he's just reading different books than SKT?

As far as Stone's list I can't believe I left out Tiger/Crane. Just finished reviewing that one. I did look at Rydberg's (Or Mace or whatever he calls himself these days) form and I was rather unimpressed. I'm not God's gift to forms but the lack of focused energy and rooting were obvious. God help his joints the way he extends everything. It started me thinking though. I've looked at that form online a lot and it resembles the Hung Gar form in a few minor areas only. It might be that it's so butchered I can't pick out the similarities and of course SD will say it's the older, original, and far better version of the form. Anyones thought as to whether it's just been chopped up pretty bad but the same form, if it's not even the tiger/crane form, or if it's been fragmented and taught so many different ways that what we have left is an evolved (or devolved) SD original.

In a way I guess it's a rather morbid curiosity for me to find just how fake is this thing I've invested 15 years into?

I know the birds and cranes at brown belt come from Hiang. Sin had ran out of material and wanted to add to the curriculum. Hiang was still going back to Indonesia to study with his teachers.

[sean_stonehart]

I just meant that I agree all those forms you listed were definetly learned from a media source except maybe tc64, classical pakua, hsing ie. But I do think its possible he got those 3 from books, I'm just not sure.

Watch the transitions, it'll be pretty obvious when you compare to somebody like William CC Chen who studied with CMC. Watch somebody do JRQ bagua & look at "his notes" from bagua. I'll send you a copy of the JRQ ebook if you want. Watch xingyi.

If he learned that stuff from a person... I gotta wonder.

[kwaichang]

The pressure point is not Japanese or Okinawan, also The Hung Gar form was taught to me much different than it is now , I may just record that and show how I was taught it , there are alot of differences I think too many to list. But I will try later this PM. I like that form. KC

[hskwarrior]

the pressure point is not japanese or okinawan, also the hung gar form was taught to me much different than it is now , i may just record that and show how i was taught it , there are alot of differences i think too many to list. But i will try later this pm. I like that form. Kc

who taught you hung gar?

[kwaichang]

I originally learned it in 75 from my 1st teacher Sifu R beene, I learned it again in 93 in SD in Tx and then another way in Tn and another in Lex. KC

[kwaichang]

I dont feel SD is a waste . I think there are good things in SD. I also feel there is Legitimate CMA in SD. It may not be all done according to CMA principle but who knows how it has been changed over time. I do know when I 1st learned the He Hu Duet, it was taught differently with different emphasis on certain points and movements. So i dont think anyones 1 year or 40 years is truly wasted , what is sad is how much was learned from a human and howmuch otherwise then passed on as Original. KC:)

[sean_stonehart]

I dont feel SD is a waste . I think there are good things in SD. I also feel there is Legitimate CMA in SD. It may not be all done according to CMA principle but who knows how it has been changed over time. I do know when I 1st learned the He Hu Duet, it was taught differently with different emphasis on certain points and movements. So i dont think anyones 1 year or 40 years is truly wasted , what is sad is how much was learned from a human and howmuch otherwise then passed on as Original. KC:)

See that's the problem right there. If the CMA principles are removed/missing because of incorrect or incomplete transmission, it's NOT CMA. It's something that on the exterior might resemble it & could even be used, but intrinsically it's incorrect.

[hskwarrior]

See that's the problem right there. If the CMA principles are removed/missing because of incorrect or incomplete transmission, it's NOT CMA

thank you!!!!!!!!

[JSE]

The Apocalypse must be tomorrow. Where has this kinder gentler HSK come from:confused::D

[hskwarrior]

The Apocalypse must be tomorrow. Where has this kinder gentler HSK come from

it is. LOL. meet me one on one and you get to see the real me. yes, im aggressive. yes im hot tempered, yes i like to fight. but that is just the martial side of me. no one but my girl knows when i cry....my friends get to see the warm side of me. enemies or potential enemies get no mercy. i will cobra kai a mudda chukka in a heart beat. if i can't beat you i will shoot you. be a friend, you got a life long friend.

like this....did you know i used to rap and i still write poems to this day? here is a combo of poem rap i did for my momma. don't clown my old school rappin style either hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJyt6yong

[brucereiter]

See that's the problem right there. If the CMA principles are removed/missing because of incorrect or incomplete transmission, it's NOT CMA. It's something that on the exterior might resemble it & could even be used, but intrinsically it's incorrect.

This was a problem I had especially with the hsing I stuff I learned while at the csc atl
The gross motions were taught but not the specific body method that makes hsing I hsing I ...
It was still practice the same "form" I was taught for example linking/linkage. But over time I have been taught the body method (Shen fa) of hsing I.

With out someone teaching me the hsing I body method I do not think there is any amount of practice that could have been done to understand the methods of hsing I by just going through the form as it was originally shown. This is not to say a person could not figure out "some moves" but I think the body method of each distinct art is what causes it to be its own distinct thing. After you do have an understanding of the body method of more than on style the you can mix them as you please/need but at their base I think for the different arts to retain value the specific Shen fa should be understood.

[brucereiter]

it is. LOL. meet me one on one and you get to see the real me. yes, im aggressive. yes im hot tempered, yes i like to fight. but that is just the martial side of me. no one but my girl knows when i cry....my friends get to see the warm side of me. enemies or potential enemies get no mercy. i will cobra kai a mudda chukka in a heart beat. if i can't beat you i will shoot you. be a friend, you got a life long friend.

like this....did you know i used to rap and i still write poems to this day? here is a combo of poem rap i did for my momma. don't clown my old school rappin style either hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJyt6yong

Not so sure about the flow but the lyrics and sentiment are really good.
I liked the parts about what you wish your mom had been around for, it's actually kinda touching and many people could probably relate...

[JSE]

it is. LOL. meet me one on one and you get to see the real me. yes, im aggressive. yes im hot tempered, yes i like to fight. but that is just the martial side of me. no one but my girl knows when i cry....my friends get to see the warm side of me. enemies or potential enemies get no mercy. i will cobra kai a mudda chukka in a heart beat. if i can't beat you i will shoot you. be a friend, you got a life long friend.

like this....did you know i used to rap and i still write poems to this day? here is a combo of poem rap i did for my momma. don't clown my old school rappin style either hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJyt6yong

No crowning at all. I'm all about some old school. Kinda hit close to home. Very nice man!

[tattooedmonk]

HSCLF never stole a thing from SD. You feel he has no right to be annoyed by this?

I mean we have all spent years brushing off things like SD. Stripmall kung fu is like a running joke to many of us. But nobody really cared that much till yall "tried" to assert yourselves and force some weak form of legitimacy into the collective consciousness. There is a reason why everyone laughs at SD but very few laugh at something like HSCLF.

But no, I'm sure the 99% are dead wrong and you 1% are just being wronged to death!!! Must be it. :rolleyes:Prove that SD stole it. Thats all I am saying about the subject until this can be done.

I dont think anyone in SD, Other schools, people or anyone here cares what you think or say about them...

most people come here for the train wreck out of shear boredom.

all opponents of SD read what they want, take things out of context , and flat out do not read and comprehend what is being said by others. many are, were, or are neutral to SD...

.they just want to discuss martial arts...something that seems to elude you.

I am not defending or attacking them...all I want is facts, documentation , proof of something ...not my sifu said and my lineages legit, blahblahblah

you havent been able to prove anything . the burden of proof is on you .

[tattooedmonk]

See that's the problem right there. If the CMA principles are removed/missing because of incorrect or incomplete transmission, it's NOT CMA. It's something that on the exterior might resemble it & could even be used, but intrinsically it's incorrect. I agree with this whole heartedly, but mechanics are mechanics.

SD has never had that "Chinese " flair to it.that is stylization that has been taken to extreme to distinguish itself from other styles.

Because of the path in which SD took it seems natural, stands to reason that it wouldnt have that "wushu" standardized look.

what was emphsized in every lesson I took was mechanics . real mechanics, not flashy cr@p that makes it look pretty.

dont get me wrong, it can look good and be equally as functional and effective.

Remember that SD has Southern Kung Fu roots (the roots of Karate , okinanwan not japanese)

You are missing more than you know ....but what do you care about knowing the truth , you have your own agenda.

[hskwarrior]

Not so sure about the flow but the lyrics and sentiment are really good.
I liked the parts about what you wish your mom had been around for, it's actually kinda touching and many people could probably relate...

thank man. i know my flow is from the 80's 90's ......LOL.


No crowning at all. I'm all about some old school. Kinda hit close to home. Very nice man!

thanks man.

[Kellen Bassette]

thank man. i know my flow is from the 80's 90's ......LOL.



thanks man.

Definitely a different side of you then we see here! Props for putting yourself out there here in hostile territory...I thought it was good man!

[Syn7]

Prove that SD stole it. Thats all I am saying about the subject until this can be done.

I dont think anyone in SD, Other schools, people or anyone here cares what you think or say about them...

most people come here for the train wreck out of shear boredom.

all opponents of SD read what they want, take things out of context , and flat out do not read and comprehend what is being said by others. many are, were, or are neutral to SD...

.they just want to discuss martial arts...something that seems to elude you.

I am not defending or attacking them...all I want is facts, documentation , proof of something ...not my sifu said and my lineages legit, blahblahblah

you havent been able to prove anything . the burden of proof is on you .


:rolleyes: A sad attempt at misdirection.

So if you can show separate lines that do not have HSCLF, then why does your version have the HSCLF elements? I'm not talking to everyone else. I'm talking to you. Answer the question. I'm not saying my sifu said this or that. I'm not saying anything about any of the stuff you are whining about right now. I'm asking a simple direct question that will lead to this truth you claim to seek. So show me you really are about truth and not just being defensive. So answer that one simple question. Then we can get HSK or any other learned HSCLF guy to confirm whether or not those actually are HSCLF principles.

I don't care about SD. I just want to know why your separate version has HSCLF elements. Simple question. Keep ducking.


Definitely a different side of you then we see here! Props for putting yourself out there here in hostile territory...I thought it was good man!


Talk to him on the real, he's a really nice guy. Next time I hit the bay I will mos def hit him up. Smoke some ick and throw down a lil.

[hskwarrior]

Definitely a different side of you then we see here! Props for putting yourself out there here in hostile territory...I thought it was good man!

THANKS. haha. i used to rap. and when i grab the mic i'm a stunna cause they think vanilla ice but get some fire and ice instead

i'm rappin here troo lolol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vDiSTM3Q5w

[hskwarrior]

So if you can show separate lines that do not have HSCLF, then why does your version have the HSCLF elements?

he doesn't have a clue bro. i won't point it out to him either

[Syn7]

No secrets. Just obvious indicators that it is HSCLF and not another line.

I could do it myself, but since I don't train any CLF, it wouldn't hold any real weight to it to people who would question my ability to assess another style.


If you guys haven't noticed, I have kept my comments on skill very general. Where I get specific is in the questioning of other peoples rationalization of bull****.

[sean_stonehart]

I agree with this whole heartedly, but mechanics are mechanics.

SD has never had that "Chinese " flair to it.that is stylization that has been taken to extreme to distinguish itself from other styles.

Because of the path in which SD took it seems natural, stands to reason that it wouldnt have that "wushu" standardized look.

what was emphsized in every lesson I took was mechanics . real mechanics, not flashy cr@p that makes it look pretty.

dont get me wrong, it can look good and be equally as functional and effective.

Remember that SD has Southern Kung Fu roots (the roots of Karate , okinanwan not japanese)

You are missing more than you know ....but what do you care about knowing the truth , you have your own agenda.

Wow... I'm missing more than I know. Who knew?

Ok... so can you point out where SD practices Tun To Fo Chum in everything taught?

Now, when you can do that, tell me where Tun To Fo Chum is supposed to fit Hua #3? Or in Xinjia YiLu? Or Ng Ying Kuen?

For the record... All I've done since leaving SD is SOUTHERN CMA, including a minute amount of Southern Shorthand. I've been exposed to some Northern along this road as well as a short year with Chen Taiji & several months of Xingyi.

Could you also let me know what my agenda is?

BTW... you never got back to me about your BB certificate number from Ching Yi.

[One student]

[QUOTE=BroncoBB;1202753]

I know the birds and cranes at brown belt come from Hiang. Sin had ran out of material and wanted to add to the curriculum. Hiang was still going back to Indonesia to study with his teachers.

I'm pretty sure that's not completely accurate. I was attending the Lexington school when all that material was added for the very first time, HT taught the 3 bird forms, and ST taught the 3 WC's, the Kwan-Do, and the two "China Hands" forms (Connecting Fist and Five Direction Palm). At least that's the way i remember it. Does anyone who was there remember it differently?

[tattooedmonk]

:rolleyes: A sad attempt at misdirection.

So if you can show separate lines that do not have HSCLF, then why does your version have the HSCLF elements? I'm not talking to everyone else. I'm talking to you. Answer the question. I'm not saying my sifu said this or that. I'm not saying anything about any of the stuff you are whining about right now. I'm asking a simple direct question that will lead to this truth you claim to seek. So show me you really are about truth and not just being defensive. So answer that one simple question. Then we can get HSK or any other learned HSCLF guy to confirm whether or not those actually are HSCLF principles.

I don't care about SD. I just want to know why your separate version has HSCLF elements. Simple question. Keep ducking.




Talk to him on the real, he's a really nice guy. Next time I hit the bay I will mos def hit him up. Smoke some ick and throw down a lil.

I would like to know that too , seeing as you have never met me or seen what my version of the form looks like. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Wow... I'm missing more than I know. Who knew?

Ok... so can you point out where SD practices Tun To Fo Chum in everything taught?

Now, when you can do that, tell me where Tun To Fo Chum is supposed to fit Hua #3? Or in Xinjia YiLu? Or Ng Ying Kuen?

For the record... All I've done since leaving SD is SOUTHERN CMA, including a minute amount of Southern Shorthand. I've been exposed to some Northern along this road as well as a short year with Chen Taiji & several months of Xingyi.

Could you also let me know what my agenda is?

BTW... you never got back to me about your BB certificate number from Ching Yi.
I didn't mean you... The general you, meaning the audience.

I have been studying internal for 18 years... Pm if you want details:D

[hskwarrior]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1202905]meet me one on one and you get to see the real me. yes, im aggressive. yes im hot tempered, yes i like to fight. but that is just the martial side of me. no one but my girl knows when i cry....my friends get to see the warm side of me.


I think you've described the yin and yang of all of us. I was touched by your words for your mother (even though I'm a little too old to appreciate the rap). I want to share a quote with you that I've carried with me for over 30 years and it has comforted me many times when I've lost someone close…I hope it will have some meaning for you too.

"And what is it to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides,
that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered? Only when you drink
from the river of silence shall you indeed sing." — Kahlil Gibran

Peace to you and the memory of your mother!

thanks. appreciated.

[shen ku]

Thanks, I just lost a dear freind from my childhood, that is a nice thought

[OldandUsed]

Hey guys, just wanted to check in. For some reason, I am not getting the notices that my comments have been responded to here at work (for all I know the government firwall is at work), I have not been ignoring you.

[Syn7]

I would like to know that too , seeing as you have never met me or seen what my version of the form looks like. :rolleyes:

Mhm, more misdirection.

Simple way to solve it. Or is it a secret from your closed door SD? Answer the question, it's a simple question. Can you do that?

You're like a child. Man up, son.

[hskwarrior]

Mhm, more misdirection.

Simple way to solve it. Or is it a secret from your closed door SD? Answer the question, it's a simple question. Can you do that?

You're like a child. Man up, son.

he's bluffin bro, he has nothing. not a single source. don't sweat him.

[Syn7]

Well, he has four days. He said he would. If he makes good on that, he's solid. If he doesn't, he's a mark.

I'm sure he has "something", just nothing that will make any significant difference in the discussion. He'll focus on a side note that isn't really relevant to the main focus of the 5 animals theft. I suspect he's trying to prove 5 Animals exists outside of SD and HSCLF as if that proves it's not stolen. I don't expect much, as far as critical thinking goes, from him or people like him. They couldn't take a 6 year old in debate.

[Eagle]

There's a story being circulated in Hiang's camp confirming GM Su Kong was a circus performer after he left the temple.

7231

[hskwarrior]

he just doesn't want US to have to only RARE five animal form. he doesn't seem to know every style has a different 5 animal form. CLF has their own. HSCLF has one. Hung Gar has one. yet, till this day, after 75 years of being in america, we've never seen another form like our 5 animal form from anyone, including shaolin. he cannot ride off of the fact that this form is rare, shaolin, or anything. the only thing SD can do is say it was learned from the book. this much has been said by the SD people who can see clearly.

even in the face of the court and under oath Sin The admitted to making up a lot of stuff. for some reason he wants to remain blind to this fact. not my problem. if SD keeps doing this form without giving its proper source, i know we will have some problems in the future.

[hskwarrior]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7231&d=1356120157

i have been saying all along that he must have been a circus performer. not a gung fu guy. now this is funny. but why temple? there was none in his day

[Judge Pen]

he just doesn't want US to have to only RARE five animal form. he doesn't seem to know every style has a different 5 animal form. CLF has their own. HSCLF has one. Hung Gar has one. yet, till this day, after 75 years of being in america, we've never seen another form like our 5 animal form from anyone, including shaolin. he cannot ride off of the fact that this form is rare, shaolin, or anything. the only thing SD can do is say it was learned from the book. this much has been said by the SD people who can see clearly.

even in the face of the court and under oath Sin The admitted to making up a lot of stuff. for some reason he wants to remain blind to this fact. not my problem. if SD keeps doing this form without giving its proper source, i know we will have some problems in the future.

You are 100% correct. While it is possible that the form your teacher's wife learned is practiced outside of your lineage, the form that SD does is the form as adapted by Lau Bun and contains HSCLF signatures in it. If our form did not have those signature moves, but was otherwise the same form, then the argument may be different, but it is not. I do not know why we are still discussing this point. This is HSCLF's form and if I ever practice, perform or teach this form to anyone, I will give it proper credit.

[Judge Pen]

i have been saying all along that he must have been a circus performer. not a gung fu guy. now this is funny. but why temple? there was none in his day

There is also a reported letter from Ie to Sin The talking about his travels over China and Asia where he learned kung fu. If Ie were part of the traveling troup, one who looked up to Su Kong as a mentor or teacher, it would explain the patch-work elements of our art--a little here and there.

[Syn7]

You are 100% correct. While it is possible that the form your teacher's wife learned is practiced outside of your lineage, the form that SD does is the form as adapted by Lau Bun and contains HSCLF signatures in it. If our form did not have those signature moves, but was otherwise the same form, then the argument may be different, but it is not. I do not know why we are still discussing this point. This is HSCLF's form and if I ever practice, perform or teach this form to anyone, I will give it proper credit.

You know exactly why it's still being talked about. Some are unwilling to admit to the obvious.You know the type, they make a statement then stand behind it no matter how weak it is. It's a pride thing. And pride is one of the greatest signs of weakness.

[Syn7]

There is also a reported letter from Ie to Sin The talking about his travels over China and Asia where he learned kung fu. If Ie were part of the traveling troup, one who looked up to Su Kong as a mentor or teacher, it would explain the patch-work elements of our art--a little here and there.

It would also explain some of the lack of fundamental principles in some of the more popular forms. You learn something a little bit then pass it on as something complete and you get all sorts of mess. Not unlike the 5 Animals situation.

Not that you can;t take it and make it work for you somehow, it's just not right to label it as what it was, rather than what it is.

[hskwarrior]

pride is one of the greatest signs of weakness.

Pride is a sin. it can ruin many bridges. the key is to have pride without arrogance.
for example, i'm proud of Hung Sing. but do i think we're better than everyone? hell nah, far from it.

[tattooedmonk]

he just doesn't want US to have to only RARE five animal form. he doesn't seem to know every style has a different 5 animal form. CLF has their own. HSCLF has one. Hung Gar has one. yet, till this day, after 75 years of being in america, we've never seen another form like our 5 animal form from anyone, including shaolin. he cannot ride off of the fact that this form is rare, shaolin, or anything. the only thing SD can do is say it was learned from the book. this much has been said by the SD people who can see clearly.

even in the face of the court and under oath Sin The admitted to making up a lot of stuff. for some reason he wants to remain blind to this fact. not my problem. if SD keeps doing this form without giving its proper source, i know we will have some problems in the future.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: unreal....are you all really this retarded...? this has nothing to do with the facts.

something that seems to elude you as well.

you just cant shut up: you, syn 7, snipsky, Drake, etc., you all have severe personal issues that need to be addressed before you can even have a conversation with one of you idiots.

I am not the type of person to take anyones word when it comes to anything until I research and find out for myself.

No matter how much cr@p you spew out its not going to pressure me to give you anything , especially respect. you dont deserve any.

you are making accusations that you cant prove. you make assumptions and blanket statements, and whenever someone calls you on your horse sh!t ,you start with the name calling or act like some half baked quido from New York.

get off the high horse you are a troll and know it, thats why you are here crying about some form that you cant prove anything about. so why not STFU already crybaby and go play some place else.

[Drake]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: unreal....are you all really this retarded...? this has nothing to do with the facts.

something that seems to elude you as well.

you just cant shut up: you, syn 7, snipsky, Drake, etc., you all have severe personal issues that need to be addressed before you can even have a conversation with one of you idiots.

I am not the type of person to take anyones word when it comes to anything until I research and find out for myself.

No matter how much cr@p you spew out its not going to pressure me to give you anything , especially respect. you dont deserve any.

you are making accusations that you cant prove. you make assumptions and blanket statements, and whenever someone calls you on your horse sh!t ,you start with the name calling or act like some half baked quido from New York.

get off the high horse you are a troll and know it, thats why you are here crying about some form that you cant prove anything about. so why not STFU already crybaby and go play some place else.

Hey *******, I had left this thread alone for at least a few hundred pages. But noooooooo, you had to bring me back into it.

We've established that SD has lifted not just a few, but SEVERAL forms from different lineages. The moron even admitted it in court. Yet you defend a thief. In my experience, the only ones who defend thieves... are thieves themselves.

So STFU, thief.

[Syn7]

Say my name, I love it when you say my name ;)




Still haven't answered the question.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey *******, I had left this thread alone for at least a few hundred pages. But noooooooo, you had to bring me back into it.

We've established that SD has lifted not just a few, but SEVERAL forms from different lineages. The moron even admitted it in court. Yet you defend a thief. In my experience, the only ones who defend thieves... are thieves themselves.

So STFU, thief.oh please , quit with the drama. ( enough with the GIJOE on steroids routine)
Prove that SD" STOLE" these from the source(s) you claim.
You cant.
Nuff said.

And just because many of the forms are in books/ videos doesnt mean they were learned from said books/ videos.

its possible they were....so the FCUK what?

I have all of these said forms in , book , video and in my own personal practice....and ?

I didnt learn from the books, but I did learn from the books. I write notes in them and use them for reference....that is what books are used for , right??:rolleyes:

If they are in books that have been sold to the public then they can do what they want , with credit being given of course. Many of these forms are common among many schools and teachers. Many of them who probably learned them from books. :p

It is possible that these forms came from a legit source , not the Shaolin temples mind you, but authentic teachers.;):D:cool::eek: hhhaaaahahah

you dont know me , dont pretend you do. :D :eek::cool:

[Drake]

Sorry, thief, didn't even read what you said. I caught the GI Joe thing in caps, and some emoticons. Otherwise, I'm not paying much attention to you.

[Syn7]

oh please , quit with the drama. ( enough with the GIJOE on steroids routine)
Prove that SD" STOLE" these from the source(s) you claim.
You cant.
Nuff said.

Where to even start with that. JP can prolly nail it in less words.

So much has been given to show it is stolen and nothing has come in return but a bunch of promises of some future glory revealed.

So anyways, you still duckin, son?

Show me your form and all the HSCLF that isn't there. Or are you afraid we'll all steal your SD secrets?

[tattooedmonk]

Say my name, I love it when you say my name ;)




Still haven't answered the question. think about it pal. you made a statement clearly indicating that there was no question or doubt, an absolute.

Maybe if you learn how to phrase a question properly, then maybe I will answer properly.

[Syn7]

think about it pal. you made a statement clearly indicating that there was no question or doubt, an absolute.

Maybe if you learn how to phrase a question properly, then maybe I will answer properly.

You know what I want. You aren't THAT dumb.

[tattooedmonk]

Where to even start with that. JP can prolly nail it in less words.

So much has been given to show it is stolen and nothing has come in return but a bunch of promises of some future glory revealed.

So anyways, you still duckin, son?

Show me your form and all the HSCLF that isn't there. Or are you afraid we'll all steal your SD secrets?Not your son , boy.

I want you to prove something...put up or shut up , boy.

you are just riding HSKwarriors nut sack. you dont even know anything about CLF , Me or SD ... just STFU already.

[tattooedmonk]

You know what I want. You aren't THAT dumb.no, but you obviously are....and so??? anything to contrubute yet??? didnt think so, troll.:eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

Sorry, thief, didn't even read what you said. I caught the GI Joe thing in caps, and some emoticons. Otherwise, I'm not paying much attention to you.probably because you wouldnt understand anyway, those are all you recognize.

[tattooedmonk]

Pride is a sin. it can ruin many bridges. the key is to have pride without arrogance.
for example, i'm proud of Hung Sing. but do i think we're better than everyone? hell nah, far from it.you have more pride than anyone here combined !

[Syn7]

no, but you obviously are....and so??? anything to contrubute yet??? didnt think so, troll.:eek::D

My contribution is a very simple question that you are avoiding shamelessly.

[tattooedmonk]

My contribution is a very simple question that you are avoiding shamelessly.I answered a while back. cant read and comprehend?

[Syn7]

I answered a while back. cant read and comprehend?

Quote it. I'm not going to go back and read all your posts.

[hskwarrior]

unreal....are you all really this retarded...? this has nothing to do with the facts.

i hope you choke on a dik you head bobba. i have a sneaky feeling you were one of the sexually abused kids.

[hskwarrior]

oh please , quit with the drama. ( enough with the GIJOE on steroids routine)
Prove that SD" STOLE" these from the source(s) you claim.
You cant.
Nuff said.

Hung Sing SF is the ONLY source for that 5 animal form. YOU have to prove it is available from some other legit lineage. SHAOLIN DO stole it from HUNG SING and raped it like the perverts did to you.

choke on a fat dik.

[Lucas]

you guys are funny, this drill's been going on how many weeks now? lol

[Lucas]

I'm going to just copy the shaolin do curriculum and open a school chain called shaolin tao and rake in the free money.

[hskwarrior]

you guys are funny, this drill's been going on how many weeks now? lol

the dikhead is just fearful that once people walk away from this thread he will fail to exist any further. the dude is such a poosified poosey he claims foul when people talk sh1t about him but he acts like a bitter little spoiled child that no body likes so he has to be even more bitter that he got dooped by Sin The his living hero.

[hskwarrior]

I'm going to just copy the shaolin do curriculum and open a school chain called shaolin tao and rake in the free money.

If that doesn't work you can call it SHAOLIN FEAUX instead.

[pazman]

http://akamai.paramountcomedy.com/cc/videos/friends/friends_1013_joey_speaking_french.jpg

Why can't we just discuss real Shaolin techniques like Monkey Beak and Burning Baby Hands?

BTW, worst thread ever.

[hskwarrior]

Why can't we just discuss real Shaolin techniques like Monkey Beak and Burning Baby Hands?

BTW, worst thread ever.

or the 10,000 bee stings.........WTF is wrong with people overlooking this LEGENDARY material????????

and the tattooed man poosey doesn't have any video of himself cause he's just TOOOOOOO GOOD. LMAO......

he probably is a straight up mirror of Sin The movement........fukkin cult leader.

[Syn7]

you guys are funny, this drill's been going on how many weeks now? lol

Weeks? Years, bro! Months for me. I didn't really care till HSK showed us his form had been destroyed. The situation is fascinating IMO. I find unrepentant people interesting. Awesome lab rats.

[brucereiter]

oh please , quit with the drama. ( enough with the GIJOE on steroids routine)
Prove that SD" STOLE" these from the source(s) you claim.
You cant.
Nuff said.

And just because many of the forms are in books/ videos doesnt mean they were learned from said books/ videos.

its possible they were....so the FCUK what?

I have all of these said forms in , book , video and in my own personal practice....and ?

I didnt learn from the books, but I did learn from the books. I write notes in them and use them for reference....that is what books are used for , right??:rolleyes:

If they are in books that have been sold to the public then they can do what they want , with credit being given of course. Many of these forms are common among many schools and teachers. Many of them who probably learned them from books. :p

It is possible that these forms came from a legit source , not the Shaolin temples mind you, but authentic teachers.;):D:cool::eek: hhhaaaahahah

you dont know me , dont pretend you do. :D :eek::cool:

I think one of the things these guys (syn, hsk etc ) are talking about is that sin the has said a lot of conflicting information and in my opinion told at least a few lies regarding the martial arts he learned and teaches.

Since I learned the chen stuff from sd I will use it as an example.

This for is available in books and on video and from thousands of people.
Lets say I learned it from a variety of sources including book and video and maybe even made up a few moves. With this material lets say I am teaching and I explain its origins as above. I think most people would not have a problem.
But if I said I learned it from mr.f who learned it from mr.y who learned it from Fukien Shaolin temple in the late 1800's before 1886... From a hairy monk and it was housed in the Shaolin temple I think many people would rightly have a problem.

If you look objectively at sin the and bill leonard over a period of years teach and perform chen xin jia tai chi chuan I think you would be compelled to admit that they are far from masters of this style and in fact they know very little about it. And it defiantly did not come from Fukien temple.

That said I still practice and study chen xin jia. I do not use sin the or bill leonard as an example to follow though.

The bast answer to any question about Shaolin do history is "I don't know".

To me it is more interesting to talk about the material and how to practice it.

[hskwarrior]

And it defiantly did not come from Fukien temple.


The only KNOWN Fukien Temple of the 1800's is the one that was burned down in 1760. After that, there was no temple there and they are still trying to confirm its location today. but for sure, 1850-1866...NOPE. It didn't exist.

[Syn7]

Nothing wrong with making the best of an unfortunate situation. Gotta do what you gotta do, right.

I think people who learned SD and are honest about it will have a lot less crap thrown at them. There will always be straight haters. But whatever. I mean if you are happy with yours, cool. Let's just be honest about all of it.



TTM, do you teach at a SD certified school? Or are you completely separate?

[kwaichang]

Everyone Lies, EVERYONE. " Who among us is without Flaw? " Master Po from Kung Fu TV series. And it is true. All MA Teachers elaborate / Lie some. ALL. KC

[kwaichang]

The only KNOWN Fukien Temple of the 1800's is the one that was burned down in 1760. After that, there was no temple there and they are still trying to confirm its location today. but for sure, 1850-1866...NOPE. It didn't exist.

So you are a Complete Chinese History Doctorate .? KC

[hskwarrior]

So you are a Complete Chinese History Doctorate .? KC

i research whats important to my mission in uncovering the true history of my lineage. this research INCLUDED the Shaolin Temple. I look at everything single thing with a strong microscope. So, no, i don't need a doctorate to know thing things i know. and i know there wasn't a fukien Temple rebuilt after it was destroyed.

no need to be sarcastic or even facetious cause you don't know what i know.

[pazman]

Everyone Lies, EVERYONE. " Who among us is without Flaw? " Master Po from Kung Fu TV series. And it is true. All MA Teachers elaborate / Lie some. ALL. KC

Anything I teach I am very forward about where I learned it or even if I developed it on my own. There will never be any need for my future students to wonder what is real, what is stolen, or what is made up. With anything I teach, I can direct a student who is interested to a place that teaches it better, either in Japan or China.

I don't believe I'm special in this regard, and I don't think it's unrealistic to hold other coaches to the same standard.

[pazman]

So you are a Complete Chinese History Doctorate .? KC

Doesn't take a Doctorate to undertake some basic research. China's is not some mysterious place that exists in some fairy tale.

The barrier for entry is rather low.....take a language course and buy a plane ticket.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
Everyone Lies, EVERYONE. " Who among us is without Flaw? " Master Po from Kung Fu TV series. And it is true. All MA Teachers elaborate / Lie some. ALL. KC

this is exactly why i feel KC is Jake the fake. Jake has mentioned the Kung Fu show in his analogies before so i.....lol. However, one must know the difference between real life and Movie philosophy targeting one culutre. The good thing about me is i know if i lie it would find its way to the surface, so i don't lie about gung fu.

what most people don't do is go around learning from books and video and then saying "i don't need a sifu, i learn from the earth"........now thats some KUNG FU carridine sheet right dere

[Syn7]

Everyone Lies, EVERYONE. " Who among us is without Flaw? " Master Po from Kung Fu TV series. And it is true. All MA Teachers elaborate / Lie some. ALL. KC

Quoting a bad tv show does not help your cause.

[kwaichang]

Doesn't take a Doctorate to undertake some basic research. China's is not some mysterious place that exists in some fairy tale.

The barrier for entry is rather low.....take a language course and buy a plane ticket.

Yeah and go to China and be lied to, all articles I hAVE read speak of multiple shaolinTsu in Fukien. KC

[Syn7]

Yeah and go to China and be lied to, all articles I hAVE read speak of multiple shaolinTsu in Fukien. KC

You see, this is why nobody takes you seriously. You have the intellect of a gnat! I'm not even going to explain why that was so retarded.

[kwaichang]

Because you dont know , I research the same or more than most when something interests me, and the Fukien temple does interest me, I look at multiple sources. and have posted some on here. so I know why you wont mention it , because you are retarded. KC

[Syn7]

Because you dont know , I research the same or more than most when something interests me, and the Fukien temple does interest me, I look at multiple sources. and have posted some on here. so I know why you wont mention it , because you are retarded. KC

Again, another example of your genius.


I'm not saying that you can't or don't have reliable sources. I'm not saying you haven't put in any time. I'm saying your statement is retarded. I understand you don't realize the difference, which is why I'm not gonna waste my time breaking it down for you. You get 20 seconds of my time, no more.

But I do enjoy reading some of your posts. In the same way that I like watching planes crash.

[kwaichang]

OK this article itself speaks of 3 different souther temples this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.
http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richard/shaoshaolinsi.doc
Read on Boy. learn something now instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt of your stupidity. KC

[kwaichang]

You are like a little dog when Iaddress something to HSK you jump in there and lick his balls for all to see. Next tim e i want your 1/2 cent worth i will ask for it. KC

[Syn7]

Anything I teach I am very forward about where I learned it or even if I developed it on my own. There will never be any need for my future students to wonder what is real, what is stolen, or what is made up. With anything I teach, I can direct a student who is interested to a place that teaches it better, either in Japan or China.

I don't believe I'm special in this regard, and I don't think it's unrealistic to hold other coaches to the same standard.

Yeah, my Sifu won't speculate either. We can talk about legends, but it's clear that they are stories, not facts. Some are fables, some may or may not be true. We don't waste much time with it. Like when I watch a fictional movie, we don't launch into a debate about the realities surrounding the movie. We just accept that it's a movie. And if somebody walked in and suggested it was all true, they would get the gas face.

But honestly, in class, we don't talk much. We work. We don't need fables to motivate us to do what is right. We don't need fantastic stories to find value in the work. We work, it pays off, everyone is happy.

[Syn7]

You are like a little dog when Iaddress something to HSK you jump in there and lick his balls for all to see. Next tim e i want your 1/2 cent worth i will ask for it. KC

You will get what I give you. Act like you have a say. Whatever helps you sleep at night.


Actually you know what, here, I'll give you an extra 60 seconds.

Look, the reason why "Yeah and go to China and be lied to, all articles I hAVE read speak of multiple shaolinTsu in Fukien. KC" is retarded is because you make the assumption that a face to face source has less value than some article. You give no context, you just say going to china means you get lied to, but the articles are, of course, reliable. Who writes the articles? Who would you talk to in person? Retarded! You also make the assumption that HSK is basing all his info from one source. You also make the assumption that multiple sources are automatically more credible than one source. I'll take one good source over ten half assed sources any day. Not to say it's always like that, but then that's my point.


I couldn't care less about HSCLF, I enjoy the mechanics of the debate.

[brucereiter]

OK this article itself speaks of 3 different souther temples this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.
http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richard/shaoshaolinsi.doc
Read on Boy. learn something now instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt of your stupidity. KC

How does any of the information you linked relate to the history sin the has stated?

Just for clarification please answer the following;

-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and kiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?

I am very confused with the information given at sinthe.com. See below. This is what sin the claims.

I have posted the sd timeline several times on this thread. It simply does not make sense.

>>>The Grandmasters
The title of Grandmaster is bestowed upon the chosen leader of a martial arts system by the previous Grandmaster upon his death or retirement. Usually given to the highest ranking student, they are responsible for leading the entire system. There can only be one true and authentic Grandmaster of a martial arts system at any time.
Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin (1849 - 1928)

Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin was born in the Fukien province of China in 1849 with a rare genetic condition which resulted in his entire body being covered with hair. His parents, convinced they had given birth to a demon, abandoned the infant into a nearby forest. A group of passing monks heard the baby's cries, and being educated, realized he was human, and brought him to the Shaolin Temple. Given the child's appearance, the monks knew he would not be adopted by any family and decided to raise the child themselves.
This situation was unique from all others because Su Kong Tai Djin was raised from birth in the temple. He was not only raised with the monks' ideals in mind, he was also not limited in his studies to one master. He was treated as everyone's favorite son and could study with anyone. The masters responded to his rare enthusiasm for learning and he quickly mastered hundreds of forms which had never been accomplished by one man before.

Su Kong Tai Djin died in 1928 at the age of 79.
Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming (1880 - 1976)

Ie Chang Ming was born in 1880 and admitted to the Fukien temple as a young boy. There he spent all of his time and energy learning the martial arts, specifically the Golden Snake system. Upon the death of Su Kong Tai Djin, the title of Grandmaster was passed to his top student, Ie Chang Ming.
Later in his life, after taking a wife and starting a family, Grandmaster Ie returned home to find his wife being attacked by some soldiers. After killing ten of them, a price was put on his head. He fled to Bandung, Indonesia and eventually established a Shaolin school there. In Indonesian culture, the Chinese were hated. To avoid conflict with the government, Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming added the Japanese word, Do to Shaolin to disguise it as a Japanese art rather than a Chinese art. At this time, he also adopted the Japanese gi (uniform) and belt ranking system that we still use today in his honor.
Grandmaster Ie was famous throughout Indonesia for his martial arts abilities, specifically his iron palm training, his high level of meditation, and his mastery of the Golden Snake system, the highest art of the Shaolin Temple.

Grandmaster Ie's meditation skills were so high that he did not sleep at night. He would place his head on one chair and his heels on another chair and suspend himself between them every night while meditating for hours. In the morning, he would instruct one of his students to place a chopstick in the hollow of his throat and strike it with a rock. Rather than penetrate his throat, the chopstick would shatter into hundreds of splintered shards!
To demonstrate his mastery of the Golden Snake system, Grandmaster Ie would have his students tie his hands and feet together and then lay on the ground. At this point, a member of the audience would be brought forward, given a sharpened spear, and told to try and stab him. He was never stabbed! At this point, Grandmaster Ie would "slither" over to a large wooden pole and proceed to climb it without using his hands or feet which were still tied! He would wrap his body around the pole and, using his extreme muscular control, would slither up and around the pole to the top!
Ie Chang Ming died in 1976 at the age of 96.
Grandmaster Sin Kwang Thé (1943 - present)

In 1943, Sin Kwang Thé (pronounced Tay) was born in Bandung, Indonesia. His parents were Chinese but fled to Indonesia after the Communist Party came into power. Young Sin was drawn to the martial arts and actually began training in a lost art known as sandburn training at a very young age. In sandburn training, practitioners treat their hands with special medicine and then place them in buckets of heated sand. Over time, the sand is made hotter and the length of time one's hands are submerged is increased. This training toughens the hands but also makes the skin dangerous for other humans to touch, hence its attractiveness to martial artists. Sin Thé stopped the training after a sandburn master accidently picked up his grandchild without special gloves and the baby was killed. This master and all of his colleauges stopped teaching and all of their students were dismissed.
Not long after, a friend of the family and a close friend of Grandmaster Ie took young Sin Thé to his school to watch a class and be introduced. He was amazed by what he saw. Grandmaster Ie's students were practicing empty hand forms, weapon forms, and sparring. It was a far cry from being a student whose sole training was burning their hands! The seven-year-old asked to join, but was dismissed with polite excuses. After some time, he was allowed to join the school, and then the real tests began.
As it was at the Shaolin Temple, Grandmaster Ie was very strict in whom he admitted as a student. Potential students were studied from every conceivable angle to judge their temper, demeanor, and attitude. One wrong action would prevent a student from ever gaining admittance to the school. One night, Grandmaster Ie "tripped" and spilled a bowl of uncooked rice on the floor near Sin Thé.

Just like at the temple, young Sin Thé's training began with stances. He would stand in horse stances, bow stances, and cat stances for hours at a time, especially while doing chores such as washing the dishes. To further build his leg strength, Grandmaster Ie required him to do one hundred one-legged squats every day! Eventually, after he had proven his trust in his teacher and built up his physical abilities, Sin Thé's instruction in Shaolin-Do began. At the age of thirteen, Sin tested for his black belt. This test was extremely difficult. At various times throughout his test, while performing his kata blindfolded, boards would be held in place to show that every punch and kick were properly executed. At the conclusion of the test, he had to spar seven other students while blindfolded!
As his training continued, Sin Thé's abilities increased greatly. He spent all of his time training with Grandmaster Ie and even stayed at his house on weekends and during his vactions from school. It was at this time that Grandmaster Ie saw Sin's potential and began grooming him to become the next grandmaster of Shaolin-Do. The pace of the training became frantic. Grandmaster Ie began teaching him one form every day of the week. But forms were not the only thing Sin was being taught. He was also being taught countless training exercises and forms of meditation, including Liu Fu Tao, or Sixth Sense training.

In 1964, Master Sin was preparing to leave for Berlin, Germany to study engineering and physics. But the breakout of a political crisis in Germany (the erection of the Berlin Wall) altered his plans. A friend of the family, who was a professor from the University of Kentucky, convinced Master Sin and his parents that he could get an equal education at a much cheaper cost. Master Sin flew to Cincinnati, Ohio, and took a taxi to Lexington, Kentucky, which cost him all of the money he had. Here he began his studies at Transylvania University and not long later began teaching Shaolin-Do (without his teacher's knowledge or permission) to suplement his income, the first time non-Chinese had ever learned the art of Shaolin-Do! Grandmaster Ie would later find out about his teaching and after some heartfelt correspondences, gave his student his blessing to teach Americans.
In 1968, his training was complete and Grandmaster Ie awarded Master Sin Thé the rank of 10th Degree Black Belt and the Grandmaster's Red Belt. Sin Kwang Thé had become the youngest Grandmaster in the history of the Shaolin martial arts! Grandmaster Sin Thé continued his education at the University of Kentucky and had nearly completed his Master's Degree in Nuclear Engineering when Ie Chang Ming died in 1976 at the age of 96. Grandmaster Sin realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin Grandmaster. He quit his studies and devoted all of his time to teaching the art of Shaolin-Do.<<<

[Syn7]

OK this article itself speaks of 3 different souther temples this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.
http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richard/shaoshaolinsi.doc
Read on Boy. learn something now instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt of your stupidity. KC

When you use words you don't know how to use, you just re-enforce my opinion.

[Judge Pen]

We've established that SD has lifted not just a few, but SEVERAL forms from different lineages. The moron even admitted it in court.

No he admitted to making up forms and telling his students they were the real thing (or at least allowing his senior students pass off these forms as legitimate without stopping or correcting them).

[Syn7]

People can be taught to hate. And people can be taught to spell. But apparently, it's one or the other. — Caprice Crane

[Syn7]

No he admitted to making up forms and telling his students they were the real thing (or at least allowing his senior students pass off these forms as legitimate without stopping or correcting them).

and it wasn't in court, but it was under oath.

[Judge Pen]

The only KNOWN Fukien Temple of the 1800's is the one that was burned down in 1760. After that, there was no temple there and they are still trying to confirm its location today. but for sure, 1850-1866...NOPE. It didn't exist.

You are probably right, but China isn't known to really care about it's archeological data or cultural heritage: http://ahotcupofjoe.net/2007/07/ancient-chinese-tombs-destroyed-for-modern-consumerism/

[Syn7]

It's profitable for there to have been a southern temple. Regardless of the truth.

[Judge Pen]

and it wasn't in court, but it was under oath.

True, but party depositions can be used in court for any purpose, so if he wasn't wise and settled, then it would have been used in open court too. Deposition testimony, particularly by one of the parties, has the same weight as testimony given in open court.

[Syn7]

True, but party depositions can be used in court for any purpose, so if he wasn't wise and settled, then it would have been used in open court too. Deposition testimony, particularly by one of the parties, has the same weight as testimony given in open court.

Yup, learned that one as a 13 year old watching a dead man testify.

[kwaichang]

occlude - Definition [uh-klood]



(v.) To close, shut, or stop up (a passage, opening, etc.)

Yes the word was used correctly. You just didnt know the definition of it.
The many articles I have read and people from Fukien and the surrounding area mention more than one Southern Shaolin Temple. Therefore perhaps , just perhaps You do not know everything maybe , again you opened your mouth and removed all doubt of your stupidity , I will not debate further with you as you do not have the Knowledge of the item we speak of to do so. KC

[kwaichang]

http://www.daoiststudies.org/dao/con...eguanqiangchai

Wow much like what JP said here is an example of a temple being torn down, in the same vicinity of the Henan Shaolin Tsu. KC

[Syn7]

occlude - Definition [uh-klood]



(v.) To close, shut, or stop up (a passage, opening, etc.)

Yes the word was used correctly. You just didnt know the definition of it.
The many articles I have read and people from Fukien and the surrounding area mention more than one Southern Shaolin Temple. Therefore perhaps , just perhaps You do not know everything maybe , again you opened your mouth and removed all doubt of your stupidity , I will not debate further with you as you do not have the Knowledge of the item we speak of to do so. KC

Who are you arguing with? I already made it clear that it was not the content but the structure and the logic of your earlier statement that was retarded. So ofcoure you jump right into the existence of temples. Good job squirt.


And yes, that is what it means. Glad you have a dictionary, now try learning how to write a proper sentence.


this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.

Replace occlude with to shut or close. Still don't feel like a retard? Ok lemme walk you through this.


this is one of many sources too many to shut your feeble mind with.

and to that, I say thank you.


Kisses.

[kwaichang]

Her let me help you.
Too many to cite, as they will stop up your feeble mind. But if you overload it it would probably stop as well. Read the whole definition next time moron.KC

[Syn7]

Her let me help you.
Too many to cite, as they will stop up your feeble mind. But if you overload it it would probably stop as well. Read the whole definition next time moron.KC

no you said "too many to". there is a difference and it can be taken as a positive or a negative. Poor structure. Why use less common words to try to sound smart when you can't even form a decent sentence?

[Syn7]

Whatever I say, you will take the opposite stance cause you are an emotional child.

Anyone KC doesn't hate feel like explaining this to him? I'm pretty much done.

[Leto]

How does any of the information you linked relate to the history sin the has stated?

Just for clarification please answer the following;

-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and kiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?

I am very confused with the information given at sinthe.com. See below. This is what sin the claims.

I have posted the sd timeline several times on this thread. It simply does not make sense.



I know, you'd think they'd at least revise the story to correct glaring errors. Like, he was born in 1943 in Indonesia, but his parents left China when the communists came into power, in 1949? The more detail they try to add, to make it sound more authentic, the worse it gets because whoever is telling this story doesn't know enough about history to get the facts right (and can't be bothered to do some cursory research, apparently).

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
OK this article itself speaks of 3 different souther temples this is one of many sources too many to occlude your feble mind with.
http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/richa...oshaolinsi.doc
Read on Boy. learn something now instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt of your stupidity. KC

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. my info predates that current info which doesn't support your claims in the least. your attempt was retarded. feble..... is more attached to you and your kwaichang philosophy. got anything else that might help you? so far you're running on fumes.

[Empty_Cup]

The only KNOWN Fukien Temple of the 1800's is the one that was burned down in 1760. After that, there was no temple there and they are still trying to confirm its location today. but for sure, 1850-1866...NOPE. It didn't exist.

Reference?

[hskwarrior]

Reference?

do a search on the triad and shaolin.

[Judge Pen]

I know, you'd think they'd at least revise the story to correct glaring errors. Like, he was born in 1943 in Indonesia, but his parents left China when the communists came into power, in 1949? The more detail they try to add, to make it sound more authentic, the worse it gets because whoever is telling this story doesn't know enough about history to get the facts right (and can't be bothered to do some cursory research, apparently).

I never heard the story about his parents leaving China in 49. I was told he was born in Indonesia.

[kwaichang]

Practically everyone knows about the Shaolin martial arts in China. Did you know that there is not one, but three temples in Fujian that claim to be the true historical home of Southern Shaolin?



Read on...............







A little history
The Manchus overthrew the Ming dynasty, lovalists (the Southern Shaolin amongst them) rallied to restore the Ming government - this is the reason for the popularity of the term si ming (思明), or remember the Ming. As part of the fight, even their monastic greeting changed. In the Northern Shaolin monastery, monks greeted each other by clasping their palms together, as if in prayer. In the south, monks brought their right fist toward their left palm in front of their chest (if you can't picture it, watch any kungfu movie - period or contemporary). The combination of the right fist / left palm symbolised the Chinese character for Ming.

The Qing emperor never forgave nor forget the Southern Shaolin's treasonous ways and ordered the complete destruction of the temple, with instructions that it was never to be rebuilt. The Southern Shaolin thus faded into the mists of history, and it's only been in recent years that there has been renewed interest in pinpointing its actual location.

Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

Putian Southern Shaolin Temple, Lin Shan Village, Jiulian Mountain, Xitianwei town, Putian (莆田县西天尾镇九莲山林山村)

Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple
After that disappointing trip, we were less-than-enthusiastic about getting on another bus to take us to Quanzhou, home of another alleged Shaolin temple. However, I had a map of Quanzhou, and it was clear that Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple was close to the city centre and accessible via public bus.

It was clear from the moment we entered this second claimant to the Southern Shaolin throne that there had been a lot more money lavished on this temple. There were youths who were summering there as kungfu students, a few monks could be seen going about their daily lives, and even a young man who volunteered to be our guide. He was more than happy to tell us the history of the temple.

According to the Qing-era publication, Records of the Western Mountain (西山杂志), the Quanzhou Shaolin Temple was first built in the year 611, more than 1,300 years ago. None of the original temple stands, as it had been destroyed and subsequently rebuilt three times. In 907, Wang Shenzhi, a rebel who created the 'Min Kingdom' during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (and was responsible for trying to eradicate the surname Shen), razed the temple to the ground as the monks opposed his rule. It was rebuilt during the Northern Song dynasty. In 1236, it was destroyed again, under orders of the Southern Song Dynasty government. Its final destruction occurred in 1763. The monks in the temple supported the Qing against the Ming (see above), and Emperor Qianlong ordered the complete destruction of the temple (and the murder of all who lived there) in vengeance He also forbade the rebuilding of the temple.

There is no denying, however, that Quanzhou's Southern Shaolin temple is in a picturesque location, and is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Just don't expect to see anything historical in nature - reconstruction began in 1992, and a 'second phase' is under works.

Quanzhou Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongyue Mountain, Quanzhou (泉州市东岳山少林寺)



Fuqing's Shaolin Temple



Most ironically (and perhaps fortunately), it is the most convincing aspirant to the throne of Southern Shaolin that we visited last. The temple in Fuqing is where there are direct historical references to the Shaolin monks. Unlike the temples in Putian and Quanzhou, it is named in 12th, 15th, and 16th century publications and excavations produced Song era pottery with the Chinese characters for Shaofin (少林). The national Cultural Relics Bureau eventually determined that there had truly been a Shaolin temple in that location.
As we sat (and napped, for it was a 6:00 am start this time) through our three-hour bus journey, then waited a few minutes in the hot Fujian sun for our driver, Mr Wei, to appear, I began to worry that this temple would also be a letdown. Mr Fu had said more than once that this temple was rather remote, and expressed surprise that I even knew of its existence.



The physical location of Fuqing's Shaolin temple gave us a good feeling from the start. Secondly, as only the middle section of the temple has been rebuilt (according to the woman manning the gift counter, the local government does not have the money to rebuild the rest), some ancient foundations remain. They are marked and untouched (and unprotected against the ravages of time and inclement weather). I actually felt joy at seeing these ruins, whether it was a wall, support columns, or the monks' toilet block - here was history, real history, not something that had been demolished and rebuilt as a replica of the original.

This time, I was grateful that the temple grounds were practically deserted; I had the opportunity to clamber among the ruins, furiously taking snapshots using both my digital and film cameras with no one getting in the way of my viewfinder. There was even an ancient grave in the top corner - graves are of some personal interest to me, and to find one that could have been the final resting place of a real Shaolin monk? What a treasure!

It saddens me that there is a real possibility of these ruins being covered over and a brand new temple built in its place - once there is enough money. Being a big fan of history, it is my fond hope that the Fuqing local government understands the value of preserving, net replacing, these monuments, as they are an important part of China's long history. Building replicas just doesn't leave visitors with a real sense of what has been.



Fuqing Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongzhang Township, Fuqing County (福清县东张镇少林寺)


Guang bing has a long history in Fujian, primarily in the Fuzhou area. In 1563, Qi Xuguang (戚继光) - invented a biscuit that could be strung around the neck and eaten as needed, making military life (and prosecuting war) much easier for his soldiers. The biscuit soon became popular amongst the citizens, even making its way onto tables of offerings to long-dead ancestors. The 'guang' in guang bing is in honour of Qis memory.





The verdict? If you're not fussy about your temples and you don't have a lot of time, visit Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple. It may be lacking in real historical character, but it is a very peaceful and well-maintained site. My vote, however, is for Fuqing's Southern Shaolin, especially if you're a history buff. There, old toilets are wonderful things.




SOURCE: Andrea See; Fang Fang and

Wang Jing contributed to this article

A map I viewed shows 6 possible locations.
This article was edited but these people mention 3 temples of possible Shaolin heritage. My Question to all is which temple do you speak of when you say southern Shaolin tsu

[hskwarrior]

yet all that info you posted still doesn't support your claim that the hairy monkey was in a shaolin temple.

But this is the one in regards to the Hung Mun's Shaolin, the one with the 5 monks surviving its destruction. i'm a ranked member of one of the 5 shaolin monk's tongs.


Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

[brucereiter]

Again none of the information you presented has anything to do with the claims sin the has made. What are you trying to say?

Let me ask you again...
-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and jiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?



Practically everyone knows about the Shaolin martial arts in China. Did you know that there is not one, but three temples in Fujian that claim to be the true historical home of Southern Shaolin?



Read on...............







A little history
The Manchus overthrew the Ming dynasty, lovalists (the Southern Shaolin amongst them) rallied to restore the Ming government - this is the reason for the popularity of the term si ming (思明), or remember the Ming. As part of the fight, even their monastic greeting changed. In the Northern Shaolin monastery, monks greeted each other by clasping their palms together, as if in prayer. In the south, monks brought their right fist toward their left palm in front of their chest (if you can't picture it, watch any kungfu movie - period or contemporary). The combination of the right fist / left palm symbolised the Chinese character for Ming.

The Qing emperor never forgave nor forget the Southern Shaolin's treasonous ways and ordered the complete destruction of the temple, with instructions that it was never to be rebuilt. The Southern Shaolin thus faded into the mists of history, and it's only been in recent years that there has been renewed interest in pinpointing its actual location.

Putian's Lin Quan Yuan
At 500 metres above sea level and only the occasional bus service, Putian's Southern Shaolin temple on Jiulian Mountain (九莲山) is not very accessible, Our taxi driver joked that the students who learned martial arts at the temple school couldn't get into any trouble, because there was no trouble to be found this high up.

Excavations in 1986 unearthed some ancient building remains and pottery shards, along with some stunningly well-preserved stone baths (that were determined to be for medicinal use). They bore the names Lin Quan Yuan (林泉院), Si Shan Jie (寺山界), and most importantly, one of the stone baths was also inscribed with a sentence describing its origin. To Putian, this was clear evidence that their city was home to the fabled Southern Shaolin temple.

In fact. the archaeological finds do indicate that there was a temple at this location, known as Lin Quan Yuan. Unfortunately for Putian, province-level archaeologists were not convinced that Lin Quan Yuan had any direct links to the Shaolin monks.

The temple, completely rebuilt with no real historical evidence remaining, is clearly not visited very often. The neglect shows, with spiders' webs joining stone lions to plants and bells to columns. If there were any monks living and using the temple, they must certainly be extremely careful not to touch anything, and we did not see much activity beyond employees napping on tables and counters.

Putian Southern Shaolin Temple, Lin Shan Village, Jiulian Mountain, Xitianwei town, Putian (莆田县西天尾镇九莲山林山村)

Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple
After that disappointing trip, we were less-than-enthusiastic about getting on another bus to take us to Quanzhou, home of another alleged Shaolin temple. However, I had a map of Quanzhou, and it was clear that Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple was close to the city centre and accessible via public bus.

It was clear from the moment we entered this second claimant to the Southern Shaolin throne that there had been a lot more money lavished on this temple. There were youths who were summering there as kungfu students, a few monks could be seen going about their daily lives, and even a young man who volunteered to be our guide. He was more than happy to tell us the history of the temple.

According to the Qing-era publication, Records of the Western Mountain (西山杂志), the Quanzhou Shaolin Temple was first built in the year 611, more than 1,300 years ago. None of the original temple stands, as it had been destroyed and subsequently rebuilt three times. In 907, Wang Shenzhi, a rebel who created the 'Min Kingdom' during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (and was responsible for trying to eradicate the surname Shen), razed the temple to the ground as the monks opposed his rule. It was rebuilt during the Northern Song dynasty. In 1236, it was destroyed again, under orders of the Southern Song Dynasty government. Its final destruction occurred in 1763. The monks in the temple supported the Qing against the Ming (see above), and Emperor Qianlong ordered the complete destruction of the temple (and the murder of all who lived there) in vengeance He also forbade the rebuilding of the temple.

There is no denying, however, that Quanzhou's Southern Shaolin temple is in a picturesque location, and is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Just don't expect to see anything historical in nature - reconstruction began in 1992, and a 'second phase' is under works.

Quanzhou Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongyue Mountain, Quanzhou (泉州市东岳山少林寺)



Fuqing's Shaolin Temple



Most ironically (and perhaps fortunately), it is the most convincing aspirant to the throne of Southern Shaolin that we visited last. The temple in Fuqing is where there are direct historical references to the Shaolin monks. Unlike the temples in Putian and Quanzhou, it is named in 12th, 15th, and 16th century publications and excavations produced Song era pottery with the Chinese characters for Shaofin (少林). The national Cultural Relics Bureau eventually determined that there had truly been a Shaolin temple in that location.
As we sat (and napped, for it was a 6:00 am start this time) through our three-hour bus journey, then waited a few minutes in the hot Fujian sun for our driver, Mr Wei, to appear, I began to worry that this temple would also be a letdown. Mr Fu had said more than once that this temple was rather remote, and expressed surprise that I even knew of its existence.



The physical location of Fuqing's Shaolin temple gave us a good feeling from the start. Secondly, as only the middle section of the temple has been rebuilt (according to the woman manning the gift counter, the local government does not have the money to rebuild the rest), some ancient foundations remain. They are marked and untouched (and unprotected against the ravages of time and inclement weather). I actually felt joy at seeing these ruins, whether it was a wall, support columns, or the monks' toilet block - here was history, real history, not something that had been demolished and rebuilt as a replica of the original.

This time, I was grateful that the temple grounds were practically deserted; I had the opportunity to clamber among the ruins, furiously taking snapshots using both my digital and film cameras with no one getting in the way of my viewfinder. There was even an ancient grave in the top corner - graves are of some personal interest to me, and to find one that could have been the final resting place of a real Shaolin monk? What a treasure!

It saddens me that there is a real possibility of these ruins being covered over and a brand new temple built in its place - once there is enough money. Being a big fan of history, it is my fond hope that the Fuqing local government understands the value of preserving, net replacing, these monuments, as they are an important part of China's long history. Building replicas just doesn't leave visitors with a real sense of what has been.



Fuqing Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongzhang Township, Fuqing County (福清县东张镇少林寺)


Guang bing has a long history in Fujian, primarily in the Fuzhou area. In 1563, Qi Xuguang (戚继光) - invented a biscuit that could be strung around the neck and eaten as needed, making military life (and prosecuting war) much easier for his soldiers. The biscuit soon became popular amongst the citizens, even making its way onto tables of offerings to long-dead ancestors. The 'guang' in guang bing is in honour of Qis memory.





The verdict? If you're not fussy about your temples and you don't have a lot of time, visit Quanzhou's Zhen Guo Dong Chan Temple. It may be lacking in real historical character, but it is a very peaceful and well-maintained site. My vote, however, is for Fuqing's Southern Shaolin, especially if you're a history buff. There, old toilets are wonderful things.




SOURCE: Andrea See; Fang Fang and

Wang Jing contributed to this article

A map I viewed shows 6 possible locations.
This article was edited but these people mention 3 temples of possible Shaolin heritage. My Question to all is which temple do you speak of when you say southern Shaolin tsu

[tattooedmonk]

Its possible that it was a guang dong ( kwantung) temple , not Fukien

[kwaichang]

Do I believe GMT mastered 900 forms , No. Do I think a hairy monk was at a Southern Shaolin Temple, ? My answer would be which one?. I do not know from what Temple the legend sprang. Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill. That is where I think much of the SD curriculum may have derived. But then I am just one person. I think there was more than one Southern Shaolin Tsu. Maybe not called that.
I believ Ie Chang Ming traveled with him so I think Some forms came from The Southern Temple and some from travel and some from Kun Tao in Band Dung. So I do not know how a form is counted but I am sure there were alot, how many who truly knows . I dont , only one person knows and that isnt anyone on this site. So no one can speak with absolute authority about it , only speculation.
Now as far as Taichi 24 who knows where he learned it and how he links it to his training and as far as Pa Kua Chang same there . But I do not feel those 2 things mentioned came from the Shaolin Temples directly , but cn be liknked to it in a convoluted way. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Again none of the information you presented has anything to do with the claims sin the has made. What are you trying to say?

Let me ask you again...
-do you believe that sin the learned and mastered 900 forms including yang 64 and jiang rong qiao Pakua from ie Chang Ming who learned those 900 forms from su kong at the Fukien temple around the 1880's or 1890's?
We know this is untrue.

JH's article says he (su kong) only learned about 300 forms.

It's obvious which forms were added later.

[kwaichang]

Is it karate , NO is it CMA yes, but through time it has changed into a different mechanical animal. With different mechanics. Is it effective as a fighting art ? Yes for some. Some of the forms are more suited to that than others. KC

[hskwarrior]

Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill.

wait did you just say SKILLED martial artists hid out in Circus's? as if they were some kind of carnival attraction like the hairy guy? what circus's did they hide out in. can you link me to something the mentions the word CIRCUS?

[brucereiter]

Do I believe GMT mastered 900 forms , No.

I agree. In my opinion that is a far fetched and unfortunate lie that he could or did "master" 900 forms specifically the internal material.

The problem I have is that he specifically claims that he has mastered 900 fors that he learned from ie Chang Ming who learned from su kong who got the material from Fukien Shaolin temple.

If you go by sin the's words this would imply that the yang 64 form, tai chi 24, jrq Pakua, chen xin jia, hsing I and several of the other internal material was learned at a Fukien temple before 1930. Su kong is said to have died in 1928...

This type of misinformation calls everything sin the has ever said into question.

How do you explain this?




Do I think a hairy monk was at a Southern Shaolin Temple, ? My answer would be which one?. I do not know from what Temple the legend sprang.
I would love to know also.




Is it possible sure and later he joined a circus which often were a hiding place for other MA's of exceptional skill. That is where I think much of the SD curriculum may have derived. But then I am just one person.

But that contradicts what sin the has claimed.



I think there was more than one Southern Shaolin Tsu. Maybe not called that.
I believ Ie Chang Ming traveled with him so I think Some forms came from The Southern Temple and some from travel and some from Kun Tao in Band Dung. So I do not know how a form is counted but I am sure there were alot, how many who truly knows . I dont , only one person knows and that isnt anyone on this site. So no one can speak with absolute authority about it , only speculation.


Regardless of how many temple locations there may have been there is enough misinformation presented that it is very confusing trying to put together a accurate history of the material that those of us who have been involved in sd practice. Sin the could choose to help but as far as I can tell he will not.



Now as far as Taichi 24 who knows where he learned it and how he links it to his training and as far as Pa Kua Chang same there .
It was officially called the "Shaolin 24 combination tai chi" when I learned it in sd.
I was told it was a ancient for of tai chi just like the monks used to practice.

Of coarse this is not true. Why does sin the make information like hat so blurry?



But I do not feel those 2 things mentioned came from the Shaolin Temples directly , but cn be liknked to it in a convoluted way. KC
I don't think they came from any Shaolin temple... But Sin the specifically makes claims on his website and in his book about where they came from. Sin the claims that they did.

Maybe some students from the 70's or 80' were told a different story but the students of the 90's were told a bunch of lies.

[brucereiter]

We know this is untrue.

JH's article says he (su kong) only learned about 300 forms.

It's obvious which forms were added later.


Regardless of the article sin the claims to have learned 900 forms and mastered 900 forms.
Are you implying the internal stuff is not part of that 900?

It is obvious if you look at history presented by others but if you look at the history si the presents I do not find it to be obvious.

[brucereiter]

Is it karate , NO is it CMA yes, but through time it has changed into a different mechanical animal. With different mechanics. Is it effective as a fighting art ? Yes for some. Some of the forms are more suited to that than others. KC

My rank cert says sin the karate club. (Lol I learned tai chi CHUAN from a karate club:D )
I understand that when sin the saw the sign on the Norcross school he was not pleased that it said kung fu instead of karate.

I agree that there are several people in sd who can use the material for real self defense very well. I think sd is a excellent fighting art depending of which sd teacher you learn from and the work you put in. I have seen some very low level understanding from many of the teachers in sd but there are a few who are really good and a handful who are exceptional.

[kwaichang]

I spoke with GMT once regarding the Tai Chi of SD he said that bthe Chen villiage wasnt far from the Henen Shaolin temple, and at times they would come to the temple and do Chen Tai Chi and the yang style is a derivation of it, so that is how he traces it to the ST from what I was told , and since 24 is based on that it too in a convoluted way is from the temples. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Regardless of the article sin the claims to have learned 900 forms and mastered 900 forms.
Are you implying the internal stuff is not part of that 900?

It is obvious if you look at history presented by others but if you look at the history si the presents I do not find it to be obvious.
I don't believe he learned /mastered 900 forms. The article came out before the claim was made about the 900 forms.

[brucereiter]

I spoke with GMT once regarding the Tai Chi of SD he said that bthe Chen villiage wasnt far from the Henen Shaolin temple, and at times they would come to the temple and do Chen Tai Chi and the yang style is a derivation of it, so that is how he traces it to the ST from what I was told , and since 24 is based on that it too in a convoluted way is from the temples. KC

I think sin the told you a lie. The time frames just do not add up.

But he teaches chen xin jia tai chi CHUAN form which was created by chen fake while he was in Beijing I think.

Chang man Ching tai chi CHUAN which was a variation of yang Chang fu's tai chi CHUAN.

And the 24 form was created in the 40's or 50' can't remember for sure.

Even in the convoluted way you mention it just doesn't add up.

[Leto]

I never heard the story about his parents leaving China in 49. I was told he was born in Indonesia.

I wasnt either, I'm sure he was born in Indonesia. The history story that Bruce posted says he was born in 1943, then goes on to say that his parents "fled China after the commnunist party came to power". That happened in 1949. It's just another example of poor attention to detail on the part of the SD story tellers. They are trying to add a detail which makes the story sound more authentic, but get history wrong trying to do it. Even if they used wikipedia for a minute or two, they would know better. It's frustrating. I don't know why they couldn't just tell the truth about Sin The, whatever that is. Keep it simple and there is less for people to gripe about. If you don't know the dates for things, don't try to make historical references in the story which might not be correct.

"Sin The was born in 1943 in Bandung, Indonesia, to a family of Chinese immigrants. He studied martial arts in the school of Ie Chang Ming, another member of the Chinese community in Bandung. In 1964 he came to the University of Kentucky, where he made the decision to stay in the United States and teach martial arts full-time." That is all it needs to be, and there would be nothing to gripe about.

[Syn7]

I think sin the told you a lie. The time frames just do not add up.

But he teaches chen xin jia tai chi CHUAN form which was created by chen fake while he was in Beijing I think.

Chang man Ching tai chi CHUAN which was a variation of yang Chang fu's tai chi CHUAN.

And the 24 form was created in the 40's or 50' can't remember for sure.

Even in the convoluted way you mention it just doesn't add up.

Convoluted is his way of saying he's either too lazy to explain, unable to explain, or simply doesn't know how it came to be. In a convoluted way, me and bruce are cousins. :rolleyes:


KC, your arguments are very weak. You make these blanket statements then back them up with irrelevant material. You consistently change your position to suit your argument while pretending like it was the same all along. Just like you did to me about your sentence structure. You changed the words to suit your point while pretending you used them all along when in fact you did not. It's weak. Plain and simple weak. Even if all this crap makes sense in your own mind, you are not passing on that info very well at all. You leave holes all over the place. I'm not sure if you are just really bad at communicating or if you really don't see the gaps in your logic. You may also want to do general historic research to match your dates. You are all over the place and it doesn't help your cause.

Maybe you can do forms well, I dunno. Maybe you can fight, I dunno. Maybe you are at least of an average intelligence, i dunno. What I do know for sure is that you absolutely suck at displaying information in a clear manner that makes sense to anyone who reads it.

It's ok to make mistakes, not say something very well. We all do it from time to time. What is NOT ok is pretending like it never happened then giving a bunch of irrelevant info to justify something you should have just admitted to and cleared up in the first place. If I make a mistake and I'm called out and shown how it's bull****, I'm not gonna religiously defend it just so I don't have to backpedal or admit fault. We all make mistakes, real men admit them, correct them and move one. SKT is a great example of somebody who has never manned up. I bet if you sat down if front of him and brought all this crap up, he would either defend himself or refuse to engage on some weak pretense of superiority. Like blaming the accuser as somebody who simply doesn't understand, but offering no correction or valid defense outside of what has already been said. Weak weak weak.

[kwaichang]

Syn no one was talking to you. why are you butting in where you dont belong, and yes you are right you are a mch better Keyboard kung fu man than I am , I dont always communicate what I am trying to say . I usually dont talk this much , i have fought since I was 6 and dont like talk it is weak. You seem to be good at talk. Thats probably all you are good at. Those who can do those who cant talk, and talk well.

HSK here is an exerpt from a story in Kung fu magazine, it speaks of the Circus and the Bak Mei system.
Young master Zhong Luo (Luo Han-Zhong) carries the tradition of his father's Bak Mei and Dragon style. Being the grandmaster's son, he began his kungfu study at the early age of three. At seven, he digressed to study circus for two years. For centuries, circus skills have been a common parallel discipline to kungfu. Luo trained in acrobatics and unicycles, but was badly injured during a circus competition. In an instant, his tendon popped and his circus career was over. Later, at age twelve, his father pushed him to into four years of hard, full-contact sparring competition.

So here is one exerpt i willl find others for you, I just dont have them saved. KC

[hskwarrior]

hsk here is an exerpt from a story in kung fu magazine, it speaks of the circus and the bak mei system.
Young master zhong luo (luo han-zhong) carries the tradition of his father's bak mei and dragon style. Being the grandmaster's son, he began his kungfu study at the early age of three. At seven, he digressed to study circus for two years. For centuries, circus skills have been a common parallel discipline to kungfu. Luo trained in acrobatics and unicycles, but was badly injured during a circus competition. In an instant, his tendon popped and his circus career was over. Later, at age twelve, his father pushed him to into four years of hard, full-contact sparring competition.

So here is one exerpt i willl find others for you, i just dont have them saved. Kc

got anything else? I'M NOT CONVINCED BY THIS

[Syn7]

Syn no one was talking to you. why are you butting in where you dont belong, and yes you are right you are a mch better Keyboard kung fu man than I am , I dont always communicate what I am trying to say . I usually dont talk this much , i have fought since I was 6 and dont like talk it is weak. You seem to be good at talk. Thats probably all you are good at. Those who can do those who cant talk, and talk well.

HSK here is an exerpt from a story in Kung fu magazine, it speaks of the Circus and the Bak Mei system.
Young master Zhong Luo (Luo Han-Zhong) carries the tradition of his father's Bak Mei and Dragon style. Being the grandmaster's son, he began his kungfu study at the early age of three. At seven, he digressed to study circus for two years. For centuries, circus skills have been a common parallel discipline to kungfu. Luo trained in acrobatics and unicycles, but was badly injured during a circus competition. In an instant, his tendon popped and his circus career was over. Later, at age twelve, his father pushed him to into four years of hard, full-contact sparring competition.

So here is one exerpt i willl find others for you, I just dont have them saved. KC

Talk isn't weak. An inability to express oneself is weak. I'm not going to apologize for using words in a written forum. That's just stupid. All that 'talk is weak' crap comes from dumb people that don't know how to problem solve without being a spazz. The same as kids that throw things when they don't get their way. You're a republican, aren't you. :p

And for the record, I'll say what I want, when I want, and you can't do a **** thing about it. Keep tryin', keep cryin'. You whine like a *****.

[kwaichang]

Yes talk is weak , ever heard sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me. ? Thgat is like talking to you.What you say is like water on a ducks back it just rolls off. No big deal, I had you pegged as a troll from the beginning. I am confident of what I know and dont care what people think. As stated earlier you are a troll and love to up end a good discussion where things can be learned with your dribble. So why dont you go elsewhere every one is laughing at you for your BS. and that is all it is , If you cant contribute positively to the discussion dont say anything. You are a joke cant you see that. KC

[Syn7]

While I don't agree with everyone here, most have done a reasonable job at making their position clear and atleast somewhat realistic. The reason why I don't talk to them is because I read what they have to say, take it for what it is, and move on. I know we may not reach concensus, but I'm satisfied with their position. Nothing in their writing compels me to shake my head and feel the desire to kick the legs out from under them. You and TTM do, though. You both repeatedly make stupid blanket statements then follow up with weak arguments, half of which are completely irrelevant. You consistently use opinionated resources as if they are fact and haven't the slightest idea as to how to build a circumstantial case. You feel more is better all the time, and for some reason because it's your position it's right. It's people like you that are the reason why America is in such a ****ty position. Idiots that have no sense of deductive reasoning and you believe **** cause you want to.

You watched Bruce Lee and Kung Fu the TV show and desired that same romanticism in your training thus allowing yourself to be duped by a half assed liar.

[Empty_Cup]

do a search on the triad and shaolin.

You misunderstood. I'm asking for your reference.

[kwaichang]

I will make this very clear so you may understand it. You do not have the ability to kick legs out from under any one in any way. You are boastful and arrogant. You are inferior so you come on to this forum and toss out a few abstract thoughts and think all should think like you. I would classify you as a moron for that reason. I was speaking about a personal experience I had with GMT with Bruce when you chimmed in with your BS. As I said earlier I am not on here for Diction class or grammar or spelling. That is secondary. You have not trained with anyone in SD so you do not have anything to say . You have not provin anything by what you say. You have no idea what I know or even how smart or dumb I am . You therefore attack grammar or spelling or something insignificant because you are like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, you just scream to hear your own BS. Now go play some where else I tire of your EGO which is based on nothing. KC

[Syn7]

I will make this very clear so you may understand it. You do not have the ability to kick legs out from under any one in any way. You are boastful and arrogant. You are inferior so you come on to this forum and toss out a few abstract thoughts and think all should think like you. I would classify you as a moron for that reason. I was speaking about a personal experience I had with GMT with Bruce when you chimmed in with your BS. As I said earlier I am not on here for Diction class or grammar or spelling. That is secondary. You have not trained with anyone in SD so you do not have anything to say . You have not provin anything by what you say. You have no idea what I know or even how smart or dumb I am . You therefore attack grammar or spelling or something insignificant because you are like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, you just scream to hear your own BS. Now go play some where else I tire of your EGO which is based on nothing. KC

Sure. But getting across a simple idea or concept while you're at it would be nice.

The curse of being truly dumb is not being able to see it. I know who I am, I'm happy, I'm good with it. Still, has nothing to do with your inability to express simple ideas in a logical manner. You're an emotional retard.

Wait, maybe not a republican, tea party, yeah? I could be wrong. But you would fit right in at a Bachman rally.

And if talk is so cheap, then shut the **** up. You know you guys can always just ignore me. It's all on you. I can't hurt you, I can just talk you into hurting yourself.

[hskwarrior]

you misunderstood. I'm asking for your reference.

do the work and discover some references. I did.

[Syn7]

You misunderstood. I'm asking for your reference.

Most internal Tong docs are not to be published outside of the org. I dunno about HSK's tong, but it's usually a rule of thumb. They have public and private papers. Private papers are to stay private.

[kwaichang]

Too late tonight Look tomorrow OK , no make that the 27th any way I have morereferences and will pos`t them
Syn just STFU, you are boring and every one is laughing at you. You dont even understand why I used the word Convoluted . Or any "big" words like occlude , and others. Go change your diaper, . KC

[Empty_Cup]

do the work and discover some references. I did.

If you have done the research as you say and expect to be taken seriously, why would you hide your references?

[Syn7]

So which is it? Am I an egotistical well spoken guy or a really dumb guy who doesn't understand big words?

I'm not very well spoken, actually. Just head and shoulders above you.

Well then, I guess I've been told. :o






Anywhoo, it would be cool if somebody took the time to line up SKT's timeline in point form beside a genral timeline of Chinese and martial history. Something to really point out the obvious discrepancies.

[hskwarrior]

if you have done the research as you say and expect to be taken seriously, why would you hide your references?

im in the process of completing my book. The clf world does have some shady people in it too. I have my reasons. Don't believe a word i say, but the others know whether i know a thing or two.

[Empty_Cup]

im in the process of completing my book. The clf world does have some shady people in it too. I have my reasons. Don't believe a word i say, but the others know whether i know a thing or two.

Fair enough. I would expect you to have some public references, though.

To me at least, your historical statements won't carry much weight based solely on your word. I have the same attitude towards the information TTM is collecting.

[hskwarrior]

fair enough. I would expect you to have some public references, though.

the stuff related to my book and history will be in the bibliography.

Man, i know. Which is why there is a bibliography

LIKE I SAID. there's shady people in CLF too and some have actually used what i said in relation to my lineage was taken and applied to theirs. filled with the BS

[Kellen Bassette]

got anything else? I'M NOT CONVINCED BY THIS

As to the circus stuff...this is an excerpt from "Training Methods of 72 Arts of Shaolin" -1934. It doesn't expressly mention "circuses" but I think it could be implied, by "roaming acrobats." I suppose it's reasonable to believe that martial artists performed their kung fu/acrobatics in circuses or troupes; I'm sure not all were teachers or military men.

Here's the excerpt.

The exercise, "Piercing the Curtain" is the "soft" GONG FU, it trains the internal energy and belongs to the section "Skill of Light Body" (QING SHEN GONG). The purport of it lies in the ability to make horizontal leaps like a swallow's flight. We often see performances of roaming acrobats who show leaps through rings with daggers or burning torches on the ring perimeter. That is just a demonstration of that kind of GONG FU. The audience see: one leap and an acrobat already passed through the ring with daggers or burning torches on the edges. It seems to be simple and easy. Nobody thinks about the fact to achieve it, one has to pass through hard and difficult training, much more difficult than in many other kinds of GONG FU.



I see the argument on here several times about SD not having the look/flavor of CMA. Someone mentioned that it's because hadn't adopted a modern "Wushu" feel to it, so it doesn't have the "prettiness" of some Kung Fu styles.

I don't want to come off as style bashing, or disrespecting anyone's art, that's not my way or intention; and I don't know much about SD other than what I read here and have seen from several Youtube videos, but the fact that it doesn't look like CMA, in my opinion, has nothing to do with modern Wushu or lack of flowery movements, or anything of that nature.

Every video I have seen of SD, be it by a skilled or sloppy performer, has the look/flavor of some sort of Kempo/Karate practitioner attempting a Chinese form. That in itself isn't a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with Kempo or Karate, but it never has the look of CMAs, because CMAs simply move differently than other systems. Some of the videos I have seen are very sloppy, some have good stances and technique; but none have the feel of CMAs.

I know exactly what it looks like when a Karate based martial artist attempts Chinese style forms. I started my MA training in Karate; and as a teenager, I attempted to create my own Kung Fu forms, based on my Karate experience and what I had seen from Kung Fu. I could do Chinese style moves all day and never have the feel/look of CMA.

I never figured out why until I began studying CMAs. It took a while for me to learn, at first, because I thought I could build off my Karate base. It was impossible. I had to completely empty my cup and separate the arts to learn Kung Fu properly. It wasn't a matter of better or worse, it's different fundamentals, different mechanics, mostly a completely different method of linking techniques between Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, Indo-Chinese, or "what have you" styles.

Kempo/Karate does not link movements in the manner of CMAs. If your base is Karate you cannot learn to link in a Chinese style until you start from scratch with a CMAs foundation. It has nothing to do with modern Wushu or pretty techniques.

Northern styles look/move different than Southern styles, yes. Southern styles are more closely related to Karate than Northern styles; also true. But Southern systems still have a Chinese look/feel brought on not only by their techs, but the way they link the movements/energies.

Wing Chun doesn't look like Hung Gar, Doesn't look like SPM, doesn't look like CLF, doesn't look like Shaolin, doesn't look like Eagle Claw, doesn't look like NPM, ect....All these arts have their own flavor, but are all obviously Chinese arts, because they utilize linkage of moves/energies in a Chinese fashion, not in an Okinawan, Japanese or Indonesian fashion.

So in that regard, SKT is probably correct in calling himself a "Karate" club of sorts, though certainly not traditional Okinawan...

Not meaning to pass judgement or disrespect at all...just my 2 cents for what it's worth, but whenever I see a Chinese form attempted by someone who does not have a CMAs base, I immediately recognizance and understand why, because I tried it myself, as a teenager, before I began my TCMAs studies.

[hskwarrior]

well, that wouldn't apply to my lineage. from the time it was established till 1949 the lineage was heavily involved with fighting in revolution after revolution and training for this. circus stuff had no use to our people.


As to the circus stuff...this is an excerpt from "Training Methods of 72 Arts of Shaolin" -1934. It doesn't expressly mention "circuses" but I think it could be implied, by "roaming acrobats." I suppose it's reasonable to believe that martial artists performed their kung fu/acrobatics in circuses or troupes; I'm sure not all were teachers or military men.

i aware of little acrobatic groups, but circus's? like ringling bro's?


We often see performances of roaming acrobats who show leaps through rings with daggers or burning torches on the ring perimeter. That is just a demonstration of that kind of GONG FU.

this isn't talking about martial arts when he said GONG FU.....he just means SKILL. not martial arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

i aware of little acrobatic groups, but circus's? like ringling bro's?

I wouldn't know, just sharing that one reference I remembered...I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as some of the other folks here about Chinese culture/history...was always more interested in combat, really just starting to learn the rest...it wouldn't surprise me though, if there were small circuses...I don't know if like in the western sense, but there must have been carnivals and small acts...just what little I had to add, FWIW.

[Syn7]

As to the circus stuff...this is an excerpt from "Training Methods of 72 Arts of Shaolin" -1934. It doesn't expressly mention "circuses" but I think it could be implied, by "roaming acrobats." I suppose it's reasonable to believe that martial artists performed their kung fu/acrobatics in circuses or troupes; I'm sure not all were teachers or military men.

Here's the excerpt.

The exercise, "Piercing the Curtain" is the "soft" GONG FU, it trains the internal energy and belongs to the section "Skill of Light Body" (QING SHEN GONG). The purport of it lies in the ability to make horizontal leaps like a swallow's flight. We often see performances of roaming acrobats who show leaps through rings with daggers or burning torches on the ring perimeter. That is just a demonstration of that kind of GONG FU. The audience see: one leap and an acrobat already passed through the ring with daggers or burning torches on the edges. It seems to be simple and easy. Nobody thinks about the fact to achieve it, one has to pass through hard and difficult training, much more difficult than in many other kinds of GONG FU.



I see the argument on here several times about SD not having the look/flavor of CMA. Someone mentioned that it's because hadn't adopted a modern "Wushu" feel to it, so it doesn't have the "prettiness" of some Kung Fu styles.

I don't want to come off as style bashing, or disrespecting anyone's art, that's not my way or intention; and I don't know much about SD other than what I read here and have seen from several Youtube videos, but the fact that it doesn't look like CMA, in my opinion, has nothing to do with modern Wushu or lack of flowery movements, or anything of that nature.

Every video I have seen of SD, be it by a skilled or sloppy performer, has the look/flavor of some sort of Kempo/Karate practitioner attempting a Chinese form. That in itself isn't a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with Kempo or Karate, but it never has the look of CMAs, because CMAs simply move differently than other systems. Some of the videos I have seen are very sloppy, some have good stances and technique; but none have the feel of CMAs.

I know exactly what it looks like when a Karate based martial artist attempts Chinese style forms. I started my MA training in Karate; and as a teenager, I attempted to create my own Kung Fu forms, based on my Karate experience and what I had seen from Kung Fu. I could do Chinese style moves all day and never have the feel/look of CMA.

I never figured out why until I began studying CMAs. It took a while for me to learn, at first, because I thought I could build off my Karate base. It was impossible. I had to completely empty my cup and separate the arts to learn Kung Fu properly. It wasn't a matter of better or worse, it's different fundamentals, different mechanics, mostly a completely different method of linking techniques between Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, Indo-Chinese, or "what have you" styles.

Kempo/Karate does not link movements in the manner of CMAs. If your base is Karate you cannot learn to link in a Chinese style until you start from scratch with a CMAs foundation. It has nothing to do with modern Wushu or pretty techniques.

Northern styles look/move different than Southern styles, yes. Southern styles are more closely related to Karate than Northern styles; also true. But Southern systems still have a Chinese look/feel brought on not only by their techs, but the way they link the movements/energies.

Wing Chun doesn't look like Hung Gar, Doesn't look like SPM, doesn't look like CLF, doesn't look like Shaolin, doesn't look like Eagle Claw, doesn't look like NPM, ect....All these arts have their own flavor, but are all obviously Chinese arts, because they utilize linkage of moves/energies in a Chinese fashion, not in an Okinawan, Japanese or Indonesian fashion.

So in that regard, SKT is probably correct in calling himself a "Karate" club of sorts, though certainly not traditional Okinawan...

Not meaning to pass judgement or disrespect at all...just my 2 cents for what it's worth, but whenever I see a Chinese form attempted by someone who does not have a CMAs base, I immediately recognizance and understand why, because I tried it myself, as a teenager, before I began my TCMAs studies.

CMA has a long history of hiding out with artists of all kinds. There is the whole Chinese opera thing during the persecution. I have no doubt that martial artists would make money as acrobats or some sort of showmen. Their physical prowess can tranfer over to many other skills. Many of which you would find at a circus or some sort of travelling freak show. And in all honesty, that would be a natural transition for a hairy monk. He would have been treated by an outcast by many, and would probably find solace in travelling with people who have similar social issues.

I don't doubt that a hairy guy that can do kung fu ever existed. But I have no reason to believe any of these extraordinary claims that are all over CMA and 99.9% bull****.

I mean, nobody in my Bak Mei class actually spends any time wondering if a white eyebrowed traitor really did exist and do all the stuff that he is said to have done. It's just kind of silly. For movies and the kids. Not that I don't enjoy a good Gordon Liu flick. Executioners from Shaolin was a good movie, but it was just a movie. Anyone with these grasshopper delusions are straight up LARPers.

[Kellen Bassette]

CMA has a long history of hiding out with artists of all kinds. There is the whole Chinese opera thing during the persecution. I have no doubt that martial artists would make money as acrobats or some sort of showmen. Their physical prowess can tranfer over to many other skills. Many of which you would find at a circus or some sort of travelling freak show. And in all honesty, that would be a natural transition for a hairy monk. He would have been treated by an outcast by many, and would probably find solace in travelling with people who have similar social issues.

I don't doubt that a hairy guy that can do kung fu ever existed. But I have no reason to believe any of these extraordinary claims that are all over CMA and 99.9% bull****.

I mean, nobody in my Bak Mei class actually spends any time wondering if a white eyebrowed traitor really did exist and do all the stuff that he is said to have done. It's just kind of silly. For movies and the kids. Not that I don't enjoy a good Gordon Liu flick. Executioners from Shaolin was a good movie, but it was just a movie. Anyone with these grasshopper delusions are straight up LARPers.

Stage performance seems like it would be a logical avenue for a martial artist who wasn't teaching, fighting, in the military, a body guard or whatever...

I tend not to believe any extraordinary/unbelievable claims from any system if they can't present tangible evidence. A good deal of the arts have tall tales and over the top legends in their oral tradition; but the martial material provided should be sufficient to justify its' worth. We shouldn't need legends and myths to sell an art. Just take them for what they are...keep the tradition and train the heart of the system. That's what it's all about to me.

[brucereiter]

"Sin The was born in 1943 in Bandung, Indonesia, to a family of Chinese immigrants. He studied martial arts in the school of Ie Chang Ming, another member of the Chinese community in Bandung. In 1964 he came to the University of Kentucky, where he made the decision to stay in the United States and teach martial arts full-time." That is all it needs to be, and there would be nothing to gripe about.

yep ... ... ...

[brucereiter]

So which is it? Am I an egotistical well spoken guy or a really dumb guy who doesn't understand big words?

I'm not very well spoken, actually. Just head and shoulders above you.

Well then, I guess I've been told. :o

Anywhoo, it would be cool if somebody took the time to line up SKT's timeline in point form beside a genral timeline of Chinese and martial history. Something to really point out the obvious discrepancies.

below is some of the timeline i have posted before. i have not taken the time to make a document comparing histories but i have done the work myself and found hundreds of claims sin the has made that do not add up with what all other available evidence tells me.

i sound like a broken record and keep referring back to the internal stuff since this is what i have studied and have some knowledge of that is where i will keep my comments. it is my understanding that jiang rong qiao bagua simply was not taught at any shaolin temple in the late 1800's or early 1900's. it just does not make sense that so many other sources would lie about it and sin the would tell the truth. like the "64 rules" of pakua. sin the signed the translation he made of it as if he authored it. he did not. also the hand drawn pictures he hands out with the translations were hand drawings that jiang rong qiao's daughter made for him to use in his book.

if sin the had just clearly said "i have translated and organized this pakua information from xyz. even if he had only read it in a book would be ok with me but unfortunately sin the outright lies and also omits information leaving the student to figure out the truth for them selves ...

what sucks for sin the is it is possible for him to have learned at least some of the internal material he teaches but since he has lied and or misdirected at least most of the students under him how should a person decide what to believe from sin the. he confuses the hell out of me because he does actually seem like a kind and gentle person and he has had some great physical training and probably has some very good fighting skill. but i think he is very full of **** regarding the history he has presented. neither sin the or any person i have spoken to in sd has been able to clarify the discrepancies in the history sin the presents.

for many people the first images of sin the they had are from the book secrets from the temple. the implication is that sin the got that physical condition from doing shaolin martial arts. i understand that he got those muscles from weight lifting and body building. of coarse he did not outright say but the implication was there.
now all of the oldtimers will talk about his body building and special diets etc like it is / was common knowledge.


1840
1841
1842
1843
1844
1845
1846
1847
1848
1849 su kong tai jin was born in fukien provence
1850 sukong tai jin was found by a shaolin monk and taken into the temple
1851
1852
1853
1854
1855
1856
1857
1858
1859
1860
1861
1862
1863
1864
1865
1866
1867
1868
1869
1870
1871
1872
1873
1874
1875 "su kong tai jin/ ""council""destroy the temple instead of allowing the ching government army / a traitor monk to destroy the temple ??date??"
1876
1877
1878
1879
1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
1881
1882
1883
1884
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928 su kong tai jin died in fukien provence mountains
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
1949
1950 "sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school ""central shaolin wushu school"" in bandung"
1951
1952
1953
1954 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school""
1955 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school"" and awarded black belt level 1"
1956 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
1957 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
1958 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school"" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets ""maters wu"" and is introduced to internal."
1959 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1960 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1961 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1962 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1963 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" "
1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
1965
1966
1967
1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill walace competed.
1969
1970
1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968. (some say 68 some 76???)
1977
1978 "sin kwang the opens the ""sports center""
1979
1980
1981
1982 sr master gary grooms starts shaolin do at the chinese shaolin center in denver under david and sharon soard.
1983
1984
1985
1986 "sr master gary grooms opens a chinese shaolin center in atlanta the sign read ""shaolin martial arts"" + ""kung fu-tai chi"" grandmaster sin saw the sign and said he teachs shaolin karate."
1987
1988
1989
1990
1991
1992
1993
1994 "?? System is named ""shaolin do"" ?? But may have been reffered to as ""shaolin do"" some time before."
1995 "sin kwang the and james halladay release the book ""shaolin do secrets from the temple""

[hskwarrior]

1875 "su kong tai jin/ ""council""destroy the temple instead of allowing the ching government army / a traitor monk to destroy the temple ??date??"

The only traitor monk was Ma Chut aka Ma Ning Er. he was a student of the Fukien temple that was burned down in or around 1760. there was no other stories of traitor monks in china's history.

[Kellen Bassette]

this isn't talking about martial arts when he said GONG FU.....he just means SKILL. not martial arts.

I understand "Gong Fu" can be applied to anything...again, this isn't a direct reference to stage performance, but the author is writing about this skill as one of the 72 arts traditionally trained at the Shaolin Temple. He then draws a parallel between the studying of this Gong Fu and performing acrobats. I think it's indirectly applied that the study of this Shaolin martial skill is also used as a Gong Fu of acrobats, (whether or not they are/were martial artists.)

Your correct that nothing in this excerpt, (or the rest of the chapter which I didn't quote,) directly indicates that martial artists studied this skill for performance purposes, only that this skill (Gong Fu) is trained by both martial artists and acrobats.

It's just my opinion that since martial artists and acrobats engaged in the same style of training, their is a good possibility that there were martial artists who were also acrobats/stage performers.

It was just a piece of information I thought pertained to the subject, for what it's worth...may not be worth anything...but any implication must be surmised indirectly, not as a direct statement from the author...you are correct on that.

[Syn7]

below is some of the timeline i have posted before. i have not taken the time to make a document comparing histories but i have done the work myself and found hundreds of claims sin the has made that do not add up with what all other available evidence tells me.

Oh yeah, I read all that before. I've read most of the SD history on here from the people who take the time. And part of my comment was in reference to this timeline. I just thought somebody maybe already had another more objective general MA timeline they could edit and stick beside it to really give that visual of just how messed up this timeline really is. Because if I can see some just by looking at this, there must be many more I do not know about.

[Syn7]

there was no other stories of traitor monks in china's history.

Say what? No other traitor monks in China's history?:eek:

[hskwarrior]

Say what? No other traitor monks in China's history?

i could be wrong but non that i know of

[Leto]

below is some of the timeline i have posted before. i have not taken the time to make a document comparing histories but i have done the work myself and found hundreds of claims sin the has made that do not add up with what all other available evidence tells me.

i sound like a broken record and keep referring back to the internal stuff since this is what i have studied and have some knowledge of that is where i will keep my comments. it is my understanding that jiang rong qiao bagua simply was not taught at any shaolin temple in the late 1800's or early 1900's. it just does not make sense that so many other sources would lie about it and sin the would tell the truth. like the "64 rules" of pakua. sin the signed the translation he made of it as if he authored it. he did not. also the hand drawn pictures he hands out with the translations were hand drawings that jiang rong qiao's daughter made for him to use in his book.


Of course, Jiang Rong Qiao Bagua wasn't taught anywhere before it was developed in the 1930s or 40's. 1920's at the absolute earliest. And it wouldn't have had its present form in the early days of Jiang's teaching career, it would have developed over time. Baguazhang Lian Xi Fa wasn't published until 1963. Jiang Rong Qiao was born in 1890 or 91, ten years younger than Ie Chang Ming. Cheng Man Ching was born in 1901, twenty years junior to Ie Chang Ming, and also developed his form in the 1940's in Hunan Province. He didn't move to Taiwan and establish his school until 1949. Does anyone think Ie Chang Ming was teaching Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua, or Cheng Man Ching's taijiquan, in Indonesia in the 1950's? It is ridiculous to think so, unless he was teaching things which he had only just learned himself from recent immigrants to Indonesia. Did he just happen to find these two teachers in his supposed travels around China, before they were famous (during the time of the Sino-Japanese war, no less), and learn the forms shortly after they were developed?
That may be why Sin The never explicitly revealed that those forms are actually Cheng Man Ching's and Jiang Rong Qiao's...because if we knew who created them, a curious person who researched these popular forms would end up questioning how he learned them.
After being lied to, it would require a very good and detailed explanation with names, dates and locations to straighten everything out and regain people's trust. Of course, Sin The and SD are not interested in gaining the trust of people outside the system, and people still in the system are not bothered enough by any of it to leave, so there's no motive to do it. Unless they start seeing student retention dropping significantly, and so few students coming in that they decide a rebranding may be in order.
As many excuses as the early and senior students want to make for Sin The, he can't come out of this without blame. Even if his students are responsible for forgetting the truth he originally told them and spreading the false stories, he had a book published repeating all the same misinformation, and adding to it rather than correcting any inaccuracies. I conclude Sin The and his elder students are and have been in cohoots for a long time, purposefully misrepresenting themselves and what they teach. They were obviously fooled in the beginning, since no one had any way to verify or disprove Sin The's claims at the time, they didn't know any better. As time went on and they became invested in the business, at least some of them must have learned the truth and were brought in by Sin The, so they could help cover up the lies. I'm sure Leonard and the Soards have to be in this category, at the very least. There are probably a lot of people who purposefully ignore all such controversy and just tout the party line, because it would force their conscience into a choice they don't want to have to make, as well as disrupt their business. They would rather remain ignorant of history and facts, and just keep doing what they're doing.

[kwaichang]

so who all is working today this wonderful Christmas Eve?. KC:)

[sean_stonehart]

Just us peons...

[tattooedmonk]

I am working because I love it! I have two personal training clients this morning and one martial arts lesson.

[shen ku]

One more here... Funny thing I am here answering phones and there is not a big boss one anywhere around??? But its kind of nice :)

[Judge Pen]

As to the circus stuff...this is an excerpt from "Training Methods of 72 Arts of Shaolin" -1934. It doesn't expressly mention "circuses" but I think it could be implied, by "roaming acrobats." I suppose it's reasonable to believe that martial artists performed their kung fu/acrobatics in circuses or troupes; I'm sure not all were teachers or military men.

Here's the excerpt.

The exercise, "Piercing the Curtain" is the "soft" GONG FU, it trains the internal energy and belongs to the section "Skill of Light Body" (QING SHEN GONG). The purport of it lies in the ability to make horizontal leaps like a swallow's flight. We often see performances of roaming acrobats who show leaps through rings with daggers or burning torches on the ring perimeter. That is just a demonstration of that kind of GONG FU. The audience see: one leap and an acrobat already passed through the ring with daggers or burning torches on the edges. It seems to be simple and easy. Nobody thinks about the fact to achieve it, one has to pass through hard and difficult training, much more difficult than in many other kinds of GONG FU.



I see the argument on here several times about SD not having the look/flavor of CMA. Someone mentioned that it's because hadn't adopted a modern "Wushu" feel to it, so it doesn't have the "prettiness" of some Kung Fu styles.

I don't want to come off as style bashing, or disrespecting anyone's art, that's not my way or intention; and I don't know much about SD other than what I read here and have seen from several Youtube videos, but the fact that it doesn't look like CMA, in my opinion, has nothing to do with modern Wushu or lack of flowery movements, or anything of that nature.

Every video I have seen of SD, be it by a skilled or sloppy performer, has the look/flavor of some sort of Kempo/Karate practitioner attempting a Chinese form. That in itself isn't a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with Kempo or Karate, but it never has the look of CMAs, because CMAs simply move differently than other systems. Some of the videos I have seen are very sloppy, some have good stances and technique; but none have the feel of CMAs.

I know exactly what it looks like when a Karate based martial artist attempts Chinese style forms. I started my MA training in Karate; and as a teenager, I attempted to create my own Kung Fu forms, based on my Karate experience and what I had seen from Kung Fu. I could do Chinese style moves all day and never have the feel/look of CMA.

I never figured out why until I began studying CMAs. It took a while for me to learn, at first, because I thought I could build off my Karate base. It was impossible. I had to completely empty my cup and separate the arts to learn Kung Fu properly. It wasn't a matter of better or worse, it's different fundamentals, different mechanics, mostly a completely different method of linking techniques between Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, Indo-Chinese, or "what have you" styles.

Kempo/Karate does not link movements in the manner of CMAs. If your base is Karate you cannot learn to link in a Chinese style until you start from scratch with a CMAs foundation. It has nothing to do with modern Wushu or pretty techniques.

Northern styles look/move different than Southern styles, yes. Southern styles are more closely related to Karate than Northern styles; also true. But Southern systems still have a Chinese look/feel brought on not only by their techs, but the way they link the movements/energies.

Wing Chun doesn't look like Hung Gar, Doesn't look like SPM, doesn't look like CLF, doesn't look like Shaolin, doesn't look like Eagle Claw, doesn't look like NPM, ect....All these arts have their own flavor, but are all obviously Chinese arts, because they utilize linkage of moves/energies in a Chinese fashion, not in an Okinawan, Japanese or Indonesian fashion.

So in that regard, SKT is probably correct in calling himself a "Karate" club of sorts, though certainly not traditional Okinawan...

Not meaning to pass judgement or disrespect at all...just my 2 cents for what it's worth, but whenever I see a Chinese form attempted by someone who does not have a CMAs base, I immediately recognizance and understand why, because I tried it myself, as a teenager, before I began my TCMAs studies.

These are very good observations--thank-you. What if you had a school where different teachers of these various CMA styles--and some indonesian "what-have-you" and even some Japanese influences came together? From what I've heard about Sin The's school in Indonesia I think that's what was happening in Bandung. And in the "cross-pollunation" much of the flavor of each individual style is lost. It became it's own unique breed. Not bad but not really CMA anymore. That's my thoughts after 20 years of SD and some cross training in single CMA and JMA styles. SD isn't karate, but it isnt' pure CMA. It isn't silat or any of the Korean arts. It is it's own animal. A great big Ven diagram. Not bad, but it's hard to pigeon-hole it as any existing style other than SD. This thead ought to be moved to the "Other related arts" section of this forum.

[bodhi warrior]

Any word on when some sin the vids are going to be posted?

[brucereiter]

Any word on when some sin the vids are going to be posted?

Which ones. I linked to several recently.

[bodhi warrior]

Which ones. I linked to several recently.

Someone said they had him doing San njie, and I think kc said he had some of some external forms.

[Kellen Bassette]

These are very good observations--thank-you. What if you had a school where different teachers of these various CMA styles--and some indonesian "what-have-you" and even some Japanese influences came together? From what I've heard about Sin The's school in Indonesia I think that's what was happening in Bandung. And in the "cross-pollunation" much of the flavor of each individual style is lost. It became it's own unique breed. Not bad but not really CMA anymore. That's my thoughts after 20 years of SD and some cross training in single CMA and JMA styles. SD isn't karate, but it isnt' pure CMA. It isn't silat or any of the Korean arts. It is it's own animal. A great big Ven diagram. Not bad, but it's hard to pigeon-hole it as any existing style other than SD. This thead ought to be moved to the "Other related arts" section of this forum.

Just my thoughts as an outsider..don't hold any weight or mean anything...you would have a far better perspective being directly involved and apparently unemotionally attached to the what the facts may be. If someone trained for 20 years and really cared for some reason whether or not it was CMAs, it would cloud their judgement, if they were indifferent, they should have a good perspective.

If I had spent a decade or so training SD I'm pretty sure I would be doing the same thing you and some of the other guys are, trying to find the core material and whatever the Indonesian roots may be. It may be just as "exotic" being from Indonesia, as China, if that's what appeals to some...if it's the combat side that is appealing, the country of origin isn't important.

It's unfortunate for those who would like those simple answers, because I'm sure Sin could probably answer most of them easily, instead you guys got to do research and deal with a lot of negativity.

[brucereiter]

Someone said they had him doing San njie, and I think kc said he had some of some external forms.

Ahh yeah, I would like to see those too.

[Syn7]

i could be wrong but non that i know of


We talking legends, stories, oral traditions? Or we talking well established facts? For the former, I think Bak Mei would be the most famous example. As for the latter, I have no idea. Were there any actual traitor monks that we can show to be true with relative certainty? I really don't know. My standards of proof are pretty high though. A bunch of doc and papers may/or may not be enough. But one thing I will say, if you think about it, the odds are that there were probably many traitorous monks. People do crazy stuff under duress. Maybe their fam was held captive and they were asked to provide information, maybe unlock a gate, whatever. I have little doubt that there were traitors. In fact, I bet there are some now. Gov. plants with an agenda. On some influence and control ****. I mean we all know that the Shaolin Temple is a sad shadow of its past glory. I'm sure some of the monks are 100% genuine(in their hearts, probably not in skill and wisdom) and just suffer fools to keep Shaolin alive.



Just us peons...


I am working because I love it! I have two personal training clients this morning and one martial arts lesson.

Work sucks.


Find a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life.

I haven't worked since I stopped being an electrician. Now I create!

[hskwarrior]

We talking legends, stories, oral traditions? Or we talking well established facts? For the former, I think Bak Mei would be the most famous example. As for the latter, I have no idea. Were there any actual traitor monks that we can show to be true with relative certainty? I really don't know. My standards of proof are pretty high though. A bunch of doc and papers may/or may not be enough. But one thing I will say, if you think about it, the odds are that there were probably many traitorous monks.

no you're right. i'm so focused on HSCLF that it slipped my mind. there was one some time back he was disgruntled and set something on fire. i forget the details.

[One student]

I wasnt either, I'm sure he was born in Indonesia. The history story that Bruce posted says he was born in 1943, then goes on to say that his parents "fled China after the commnunist party came to power". That happened in 1949. It's just another example of poor attention to detail on the part of the SD story tellers. They are trying to add a detail which makes the story sound more authentic, but get history wrong trying to do it. Even if they used wikipedia for a minute or two, they would know better. It's frustrating. I don't know why they couldn't just tell the truth about Sin The, whatever that is. Keep it simple and there is less for people to gripe about. If you don't know the dates for things, don't try to make historical references in the story which might not be correct.

"Sin The was born in 1943 in Bandung, Indonesia, to a family of Chinese immigrants. He studied martial arts in the school of Ie Chang Ming, another member of the Chinese community in Bandung. In 1964 he came to the University of Kentucky, where he made the decision to stay in the United States and teach martial arts full-time." That is all it needs to be, and there would be nothing to gripe about.

Its been said his family fled China when "the communist party came to power." Historically PRC founded by Mao in 1949. But the Communists had been fighting for power in China for decades. According to many sources (Wikipedia, as Leto suggested, FWIW, quoted below), Communist Party in China founded 1921, went through 2 "civil wars," ending up in the final push to power from 1937 to 1949 or so.

"During the Second Sino-Japanese war (1937–1945), the CPC and KMT were temporarily in alliance to fight their common enemy. The Communist government moved from Bao'an (Pao An) to Yan'an (Yenan) in December 1936.[8] The Chinese Workers' and Peasants' Red Army became army groups belonging to the national army (8th route army and New 4th Army), and the Soviet Republic of China changed its name as a special Shaan-Gan-Ning administration region (named after the Shaanxi-Gansu-Ningxia provinces at the borders of each it was located). However, essentially the army and the region controlled by CPC remained independent from the KMT’s government.
In eight years, the CPC membership increased from 40,000 to 1,200,000 and its military forces - from 30,000 to approximately one million in addition to more than one million militia support groups.[9][citation needed]
It is a well accepted idea that without the Japanese invasion, the CPC might not have developed so fast. This accelerated development is attributed by some[who?] to the lack of attention the CPC paid to the war against Japan, they argue that the Chinese Communists took advantage of the KMT's preoccupation with the Japanese to gain an edge on the nationalists. This, however, can not be entirely true as the Chinese Communists did wage costly guerrilla wars against Japanese occupied areas.[citation needed]
[edit]Third Civil Revolution periods (1946-1949)
After the conclusion of WWII, the civil war resumed between the Kuomintang and the Communists. Despite initial gains by the KMT, they were eventually defeated and forced to flee to off-shore islands, most notably Taiwan. In the war, the US supported the Kuomintang and the USSR supported the CPC, but both with limited degrees. With the Kuomintang's defeat, Mao Zedong established the People's Republic of China in Beijing on October 1, 1949."

Again, many things in SD history to fault, but I'm not sure that calling it a "lie" to say his family fled to avoid the Communists, even if well before 1949, isn't just splitting hairs. I suspect the Country wasn't pleasant for avowed capitalists in the years leading up to actually taking over, and getting out while the getting was good, as they say, is not inaccurately described as "fleeing the county when the Communists came to power."

Just an historical point that might defuse some of the criticism of that point, at least. I know there are others.

And here we are (sorry, "I am") on Xmas Eve debating Chinese-Communist history. I hope the kids get to bed soon so I can finish wrapping presents -- i.e. doing something really productive. Happy Holidays to everyone.

[tattooedmonk]

All those who sent me email addresses, you were just sent a Christmas present an hour or so ago.....merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone!

[themeecer]

Merry Christmas!!!!! And peace on Earth, good will toward men.

[shen ku]

I hope everyone had a Very Merry Christmas!!!!

[themeecer]

It was far better than I deserved.

[ninjashaolin]

im in the process of completing my book. The clf world does have some shady people in it too. I have my reasons. Don't believe a word i say, but the others know whether i know a thing or two.

Look forward to your book

[JSE]

There is the whole Chinese opera thing during the persecution.

Didn't Jackie Chan start out in Chinese Opera?

I think Sammo Hung as well.

[hskwarrior]

Look forward to your book

THANKS. its about Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut and the direct lineage i belong to. it focuses on the history as well as newly found info about the green grass monk and Hung Sing's relationship to the Hung Mun, background info our my lineages elders and it will also focus on classical usage in addition to modern usage of Hung Sing CLF.