Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Golden Arms]

HSKWarrior, you should make sure to include the whole 5 elements form in there just for posterity. I really doubt anyone would steal it and claim it as their own in this day and age ;)

[kwaichang]

I found this posted by Gene Ching in the what is known about Shaolin Kung fu,

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn't really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

[GeneChing]

This was just posted on our new What was known about Shaolin Kung Fu prior to the 20th century? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65049) thread by nooB falkor.

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn't really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

[hskwarrior]

Shaolin Tai Chi
I found this posted by Gene Ching in the what is known about Shaolin Kung fu,

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn't really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

shaolin may have picked up tai chi somewhere but it doesn't mean sin the legitimately learned it.


In China, t'ai chi ch'uan is categorized under the Wudang grouping of Chinese martial arts[3] — that is, the arts applied with internal power.[4] Although the Wudang name falsely suggests these arts originated at the so-called Wudang Mountain, it is simply used to distinguish the skills, theories and applications of neijia ("internal arts") from those of the Shaolin grouping, waijia ("hard" or "external") martial art styles.[5]

[pazman]

Kwaichang, are you implying that either the 24 taiji or the "Yang" style form (which comes from Zheng Manqing) that Shaolin Do practices may have been practiced at Shaolin? If you believe that bull**** you are waaaaay off and need to research the origin of either of those two forms.

[brucereiter]

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

i think what people mean when they say that is that cheng man chings 37 posture form aka yang 64 as taught in sd was not practiced at any shaolin temple.

kc do you think it was?

[GeneChing]

shaolin may have picked up tai chi somewhere but it doesn't mean sin the legitimately learned it. Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is.

i know you know i'm saying legitimate is actually learning it from a guy who learned it from his teacher who learned it from his teacher and so on. NOT ....."oh, i picked up this tai chi book and will be teaching classes on it. I'm charging $25 dollars a head. come and experience the awesomeness of this Tai Chi (i learned from pictures in a book)."

[GeneChing]

...but given all vast number of tai chi teachers, especially at the low levels like at community and senior centers, I don't see this a particularly viable argument.

[hskwarrior]

...but given all vast number of tai chi teachers, especially at the low levels like at community and senior centers, I don't see this a particularly viable argument.

no argument. it is what it is. i don't know tai chi. but i do know Thai Stick.

[pazman]

KC,
Zheng Manqing's form and the 24 form that are taught in Shaolin Do were never practiced at Shaolin. I've stated it before but it would be a series of amazing coincidences for The to have learned those forms in Indonesia. For that to happen, one of Zheng Manqing's students would've had to travel to Indonesia and train The. The only people training the 24 in the late 50s and early 60s were either the wushu coaches making the 24 or people in mainland China in reeducation camps. These are two unlikely things happening together. In either case, they are not and have never part of any Shaolin syllabus. On a lot of Shaolin Do websites they present The as being a grandmaster and the two forms mentioned as being a part of Shaolin syllabus.

So....we should just assume that he learned them here in USA, perhaps from teachers. From who, we don't know, but from the videos we can see that he in no way mastered the material and is not qualified to teach taiji.

I learned the 24 taiji from a volleyball coach for fun. I "legitimately" learned the form from somebody, but I am in no way qualified to teach it as a "grandmaster" and if I said the form was a traditional part of a "sanda syllabus" I'd be lying.

[Syn7]

I found this posted by Gene Ching in the what is known about Shaolin Kung fu,

According to the book Shaolin Monastery, by 1904 the Shaolin Temple was in ruins and Kung Fu was no longer being practised there. In 1928 the temple burnt for the first time, for 40 days, and didn't really recover until the 1980s. Going back to the Ming-Qing transitional period hundreds of years earlier, Shahar attributes 2 known manuals to earliest Shaolin teachings at the monastery, which includes acupuncture and pressure points. Drunken style most likely originated at the temple as well.

However, between the Ming-Qing and 1904 there is no mention of what Shaolin Kung Fu actually was, though there are listed a number of martial arts styles that were developed in close proximity to the monastery, say about 30 miles away, and could have been developed at Shaolin, but there is no way of knowing for sure. One example was Tai Chi, which I heard closely resembles Shaolin Kung Fu. And a lot of the styles Shahar mentions got tied mythically to the Wudang legends.

So I find this interesting for all those who say Tai Chio wasnt at shaolin. KC

That tells us nothing. So they did TaiChi. And??? I'm sure many styles have been adapted into the Shaolin curriculum. Doesn't mean they made it up themselves. Infact this info does more to show the subjective nature of the argument and how we CAN NOT make many definitive statements with the current info and it's reliability. This does NOT help your argument.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you don't do your position any justice.

[Syn7]

Tai Chi is the single most popular martial art in the world. You can learn it anywhere, depending of course upon what your criterion for 'legitimate' is. :rolleyes:

I'm thinking a teacher that would emphasize actually remembering the movements would be a good start. Most of what I see SKT do seems so **** disconnected. Like he doesn't practice at all. Just uses his memory to muddle through it.

[Syn7]

no argument. it is what it is. i don't know tai chi. but i do know Thai Stick.

"I don't need no karate bull****, I know 2x4" A direct quote from an old friend that always kept a hatchet in his pack.

Ironically, he is waist deep in CMA now. Total 180.

[Syn7]

KC,
Zheng Manqing's form and the 24 form that are taught in Shaolin Do were never practiced at Shaolin. I've stated it before but it would be a series of amazing coincidences for The to have learned those forms in Indonesia. For that to happen, one of Zheng Manqing's students would've had to travel to Indonesia and train The. The only people training the 24 in the late 50s and early 60s were either the wushu coaches making the 24 or people in mainland China in reeducation camps. These are two unlikely things happening together. In either case, they are not and have never part of any Shaolin syllabus. On a lot of Shaolin Do websites they present The as being a grandmaster and the two forms mentioned as being a part of Shaolin syllabus.

So....we should just assume that he learned them here in USA, perhaps from teachers. From who, we don't know, but from the videos we can see that he in no way mastered the material and is not qualified to teach taiji.

I learned the 24 taiji from a volleyball coach for fun. I "legitimately" learned the form from somebody, but I am in no way qualified to teach it as a "grandmaster" and if I said the form was a traditional part of a "sanda syllabus" I'd be lying.

Well, he did have alot of informal students who may have believed they were better than they were. It isn't that far fetched to believe one of them ended up in Indonesia for at least some time and/or had a "student" that did. Possible, but the timeline is kinda tight.

But yeah, no Shaolin. Maybe in a convoluted 18th cousin kind of way. But nothing relevant to this discussion.

Occam's Razor tells us that SKT learned it in the US after he started his school. From a book or a teacher.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ie Chang Ming left China for Indonesia around 1928...according to the SD timeline. Taji 24 form was created in 1956 in Beijing.

Why is there even a discussion about it being handed down from Shaolin??:confused:

Whatever the relation between Shaolin and traditional Tai Chi, there is no relation to the modern 24 form.

Created, 1956, Beijing. How do you learn it pre 1930's in Fujian Province???

[Syn7]

Relating it to Shaolin is simply retarded. Not even going there.


SKT came to the states when? 64? So that would give him a decent window to have learned the form in Indonesia assuming an undocumented student made that trip from Taiwan to Indonesia in that time frame. And didn't he say he learned it from some nutcase? That reeks of bull**** excuses to justify a lie. But it is possible this nutcase learned the form somehow. He says he met the guy in 58. So the timeline is tight and very unlikely, but possible. Or does The claim to have learned the form from Ie Chang Ming?

Speaking of Ie Vhang Ming. I always hear stories of the KF master who defeats soldiers then flees. I believe that most of these stories that are inflated over and over again. Starting with like "Political ideals made him a target for the gov and he fled" and ends up with "defeated many ruffian soldiers in the good battle against evil and fled to protect his family". Weak.

[kwaichang]

The article shows Tai Chi was practiced at shaolin. MA were brought into the temple from out side sources. GMThe did not say Tai Chi was from the temple but was associated with it and developed further there. Also he said he was taught by others in Indonesia but later was a select pupil of Master Ie.
As far as argument or proving something I am merely posting articles or exerpts and what I have been told or learned, i am not trying to prove anything to any one, or convince anyone of anything. Just Joe friday " just the facts " thats all I want to see. Many post hearsay or opinion on here. KC

[kwaichang]

Those on here that do tai Chi should push hands with Master Leonard or Joe Schaefer in Texas, you will be schooled very quickly in Push hand , JS in austin defeated the push hand champion while on one of the trips to China I believe it was 2002?. any way i guess their skill was just dropped out of the sky. KC

[hskwarrior]

ohhhh push hands, thats gangsta

[hskwarrior]

Created, 1956, Beijing. How do you learn it pre 1930's in Fujian Province???

just more SIN THE lies. sad really.

[bawang]

to save shaolin do, you must destroy shaolin do.

[brucereiter]

Those on here that do tai Chi should push hands with Master Leonard or Joe Schaefer in Texas, you will be schooled very quickly in Push hand , JS in austin defeated the push hand champion while on one of the trips to China I believe it was 2002?. any way i guess their skill was just dropped out of the sky. KC

neither of them in my opinion are experts in tai chi chuan.

[Kellen Bassette]

I could care less where he picked up 24, everyone and their brother does it. It's probably the most popular form in the world...it's just absurd to call modern 24 a Shaolin form.

Somebody had claimed it somewhere on this thread...doesn't matter who and I don't care enough to look through all that just to call someone out on something ridiculous. :p

[brucereiter]

The article shows Tai Chi was practiced at shaolin. MA were brought into the temple from out side sources. GMThe did not say Tai Chi was from the temple but was associated with it and developed further there. Also he said he was taught by others in Indonesia but later was a select pupil of Master Ie.
As far as argument or proving something I am merely posting articles or exerpts and what I have been told or learned, i am not trying to prove anything to any one, or convince anyone of anything. Just Joe friday " just the facts " thats all I want to see. Many post hearsay or opinion on here. KC


kc,

do you think that the yang 64 tai chi is the same tai chi that cheng man ching did?
i think it is. if it is then this contradicts the following quote by sin the (or jim halladay since they are co authors)


sin the says confusing, indirect, misleading information like the quote below about the history of "yang 64".

page 82 chapter 10 shaolin do secrets from the temple by sin kwang the'
"the main style taught in shaolin do is considered to be the 64 movement yang style. while not identical to the present day yang style it is identical to a more rarely seen form which is termed "temple style" tai chi churn. temple style tai chi chuan is considered by some to be the most authentic style of tai chi chuan in existence today and it probably is the yang 64 style in an older form before it was modified over generations.

[brucereiter]

I could care less where he picked up 24, everyone and their brother does it. It's probably the most popular form in the world...it's just absurd to call modern 24 a Shaolin form.

Somebody had claimed it somewhere on this thread...doesn't matter who and I don't care enough to look through all that just to call someone out on something ridiculous. :p

in the late 1990's when i was taught the 24 form it was called "shaolin combination tai chi form" and we were told it is exactly like the shaolin monks used to practice in old times. even at the time i knew this was not true. my former sd teacher has since stopped saying this.

[kwaichang]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

[Kellen Bassette]

in the late 1990's when i was taught the 24 form it was called "shaolin combination tai chi form" and we were told it is exactly like the shaolin monks used to practice in old times. even at the time i knew this was not true. my former sd teacher has since stopped saying this.

Good for him...when I was a teenager I heard the Bodhidharma bringing Kung Fu to Shaolin story. I wasn't naive enough to believe all the over the top legends, but the part about him creating the exercises that later became Shaolin Kung Fu seemed reasonable, so I repeated the story.

Since then historians, have proven that to be inaccurate. So if someone were to ask, I'd say it was an old legend, these are the facts, as far as we know, now.

Nothing wrong with learning more and correcting yourself. The guys that say something, then it turns out wrong but they still stand by it to the end...you got to wonder why....

[Leto]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

Tai chi was derived from shaolin martial arts, and early Chen tai chi may have been very similar to the other martial arts still being practiced in and around shaolin at the time. But I don't think anyone said it was developed or refined in shaolin, at least not until modern times, and certainly not Yang style, which are the forms we are talking about. Where are the other people who practice this temple version of taijiquan, which is so similar to the yang style?
You really don't see how our Yang style tai chi is identical to Cheng Man Ching's form? Some techniques are performed differently (or incorrectly), and there are some extraneous movements added, but in the order and number of postures it is identical. If it really was an older Yang style form, it would be about twice as long with many more postures. The most you could say is that Sin The used the framework of Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form and decided to perform the tai chi chuan in his own way, thus making it a different "style". But that's like doing a cover version of a song. It isn't a different song, even though it sounds all crazy with a different tempo and instruments so you can hardly recognize it.

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/jyZqQwmIqC8
http://youtu.be/UiIT2UEpYN0
http://youtu.be/JbHeHxetSbQ
http://youtu.be/vsDPy7zMrA4

Here are 4 different tai chi forms, SD is called the 64 at times so i included 2 of those. KC

[brucereiter]

While maybe not experts of the Form as you know it the physical application of Push hands is something to be considered. Have you pushed hands with either of them?
Also while i personally may believe that the Yang taught in SD isnt what i have seen as CMC TChi, and is different how do we know it isnt similar to the TC performed in the temple as the article clip i posted earlier may say or elude to. about the 24 well I know GMT feels a link to it through the Chen village etc and Yang Tai chi which he couples to the temple through an odd way. But was it learned from Ie no I doubt it. But that doesnt make it any less a good CMA form. KC

i have not done push hands with sin the or bill leonard. i have never met bill leonard and sin the would not do push hands with me when we were together. i have met a small handful of sd people who were very skilled with push hands etc but the vast majority i do not think had any understanding of it and how it relates to self defense.

i think the yang tai chi chuan applications that sin the teaches are pretty good. which is one of the reasons i want to know the true history.

i think yang 64 is a great "form" i have spent many years studying it and will continue for many more.

i think it is fair for me to question sin the's claims regarding yang 64.

i remember asking my teacher in the late 90's if it was the same as cmc tai chi and was told NO it is not! its from shaolin and very old.
based on all of the evidence that is available to me i would say it is cmc tai chi chuan with a few postures like hands wave in clouds changes. in all of my years of researching tai chi chuan the only form i have found that matches up to the yang 64 form is cmc tai chi. why do you think this is?

to me there is no way in good conscience to say the 24 tai chi form is shaolin, especially Fukien shaolin.

why does sin the need to make its origins so mysterious? what is temple tai chi?
i have said before that i think it is possible that the learned it from i.e. but still the timeframe does not add up since he says his introduction to internal was the crazy guy.
if you go by the available dates sin the claims he learned all of hsing i and all of the bagua and chen, yang 64 and 24 forms in a very short time if he did infact learn these personally from ie chang ming.

[brucereiter]

http://youtu.be/jyZqQwmIqC8

looks nice. is this not the same form practiced in sd?



http://youtu.be/UiIT2UEpYN0

this is not the same form they is the #64 in reference to the trigrams.
http://english.wudanggongfuwang.com/plus/view.php?aid=2
some info about that teacher and his history and leads to more info on their history are available there.
this form has nothing to do with cmc or the yang 64 sin the teaches



http://youtu.be/JbHeHxetSbQ


not bad form ... what does this have to do with sin the's claims?



http://youtu.be/vsDPy7zMrA4




Here are 4 different tai chi forms, SD is called the 64 at times so i included 2 of those. KC

nice video of cmc. note sin the dresses like him when he taught his tai chi applications and had a very similar way of movement.

[One student]

kc,

do you think that the yang 64 tai chi is the same tai chi that cheng man ching did?
i think it is. if it is then this contradicts the following quote by sin the (or jim halladay since they are co authors)


sin the says confusing, indirect, misleading information like the quote below about the history of "yang 64".

page 82 chapter 10 shaolin do secrets from the temple by sin kwang the'
"the main style taught in shaolin do is considered to be the 64 movement yang style. while not identical to the present day yang style it is identical to a more rarely seen form which is termed "temple style" tai chi churn. temple style tai chi chuan is considered by some to be the most authentic style of tai chi chuan in existence today and it probably is the yang 64 style in an older form before it was modified over generations.

I am by no means a scholar of CMA, but I've always considered that SD taught that TC had origins and connections to Shaolin Temple, and that beginning training in TC started with what SD teaches as the "Yang 64" or whatever it is called, and then expands TC training with the TC weapons and Chen style as well. I first learned TC (the Yang 64) in Lexington in the early 80's, directly from GMST, don't recall ever being told anything about it was THE form done at the SL temple.

So here are some other perspectives on the history or TC and its connections to Shaolin:

"After graduating from the famous Shaolin Monastery, the fountainhead of Shaolin Kung Fu, Chi Kung, and Zen, Zhang San Feng continued his martial arts practice and spiritual development in the Purple Summit Temple on Wudang Mountain, which is one of the most important of the sacred mountains of Taoism.

"One day Zhang San Feng witnessed a fight between a snake and a crane (some documents say a sparrow), and this inspired him to modify his comparatively hard Shaolin Kungfu into a softer style which was then known as Wudang 32-Pattern Long Fist. This later developed into Tai Chi Chuan. . . .

"Some people suggest that Chen Wang Ting might have been influenced by Shaolin Kungfu directly, as the Chen Family Settlement is not far from the Shaolin Monastery in the same province, and virtually all Tai Chi patterns and principles, except those touching on Taoist philosophy, are also found in Shaolin Kungfu."

From: Wong Kiew Kit, "The Complete Book of Tai Chi Chuan" (2002), p. 19, 23. GMST told the same story about the crane and the snake fight day 1 in Tai Chi class. One could theorize that the "Temple" referred to in so-called "Temple Style" is in fact the Purple Summit Temple (see the quote from Lu Shengli, below). Also:

"The highest level of Weijia [external fist] practice was Shaolin, and Zhang Sanfeng is known to have been an innovative student of Shaolin. He may well have made the changes in Weijia practice and concepts that provided the basis for the new style of Neijia [internal fist]. . . .

"The history of the founder of Tai Chi Quan has puzzled people for 200 years. According to legend, there were originally 5 different kinds of Tai Chi Quan. . . .

"Xu Xuanping, a hermit who lived on Chengyang Mountain during the Tang Dynasty, practiced a form of Tai Chi Quan called 'San Shi Qi' or 'Thirty-Seven Postures.' He was tall, had long hair and a beard, and could run as fast as a horse. Every day he carried wood down the mountain to barter it for alcohol. . . . The movements of Xu's 37 Postures form, known as Chan Quan or the Long Form, are very close to what we practice today. . . .

"Zhan Sanfeng's Taiji Quan is called Shi San Shi or the '13 Posture Form.' It has become very popular and is the form most commonly practiced today. When people say Taiji Quan, they are usually referring to Zhang Sanfeng's form. The main variants of this style Chen style, Yang style, Wu (tone 2) style, Wu (tone 3) style, and Sun style.

"Today, with the exception of Zhang Sanfeng's form, the old styles of Taiji Quan are almost lost. Only a few old masters know anything about them. Some people even doubt the existence of these old styles, believing instead that the forms were devised within the last one hundred years."

From: Lu Shengli (translated by Zhang Yun), "Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua" (2006), p. 6, 43-45. SD is not unique for tall tales (Xu "could run as fast as a horse"). And by the way this book also discusses the qigong practice methods of "Xiantian Quan," or "Pre-birth Skills," which some SD students will recognize as what GMST called "Shien Tien Chi" or "breathing methods from before you were born" training in his chi kung or qigong classes.

Although just a theory, there is nothing to say that someone from China or somewhere else who learned what SD calls the Yang 64 or the 24 didn't have contacts with one of the other teachers at the Chuan Yen school in Indonesia. And told stories of the "Temple" Style of Zhang San Feng which according to these texts developed from Shaolin Kung Fu and into the modern forms. Just a theory.

[kwaichang]

This is what i was explaining with the posting of the Wu Dang style form and the mention that many forms are called 64 or 37 or 108 or whatever. KC

[kwaichang]

Look familiar
http://youtu.be/sR0FLOJyQQA

Things that make you go Hummm KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/pVHwDNo2LB8
For your entertainment KC

[Leto]

I am by no means a scholar of CMA, but I've always considered that SD taught that TC had origins and connections to Shaolin Temple, and that beginning training in TC started with what SD teaches as the "Yang 64" or whatever it is called, and then expands TC training with the TC weapons and Chen style as well. I first learned TC (the Yang 64) in Lexington in the early 80's, directly from GMST, don't recall ever being told anything about it was THE form done at the SL temple.

So here are some other perspectives on the history or TC and its connections to Shaolin:

"After graduating from the famous Shaolin Monastery, the fountainhead of Shaolin Kung Fu, Chi Kung, and Zen, Zhang San Feng continued his martial arts practice and spiritual development in the Purple Summit Temple on Wudang Mountain, which is one of the most important of the sacred mountains of Taoism.

"One day Zhang San Feng witnessed a fight between a snake and a crane (some documents say a sparrow), and this inspired him to modify his comparatively hard Shaolin Kungfu into a softer style which was then known as Wudang 32-Pattern Long Fist. This later developed into Tai Chi Chuan. . . .

"Some people suggest that Chen Wang Ting might have been influenced by Shaolin Kungfu directly, as the Chen Family Settlement is not far from the Shaolin Monastery in the same province, and virtually all Tai Chi patterns and principles, except those touching on Taoist philosophy, are also found in Shaolin Kungfu."

From: Wong Kiew Kit, "The Complete Book of Tai Chi Chuan" (2002), p. 19, 23. GMST told the same story about the crane and the snake fight day 1 in Tai Chi class. One could theorize that the "Temple" referred to in so-called "Temple Style" is in fact the Purple Summit Temple (see the quote from Lu Shengli, below). Also:

"The highest level of Weijia [external fist] practice was Shaolin, and Zhang Sanfeng is known to have been an innovative student of Shaolin. He may well have made the changes in Weijia practice and concepts that provided the basis for the new style of Neijia [internal fist]. . . .

"The history of the founder of Tai Chi Quan has puzzled people for 200 years. According to legend, there were originally 5 different kinds of Tai Chi Quan. . . .

"Xu Xuanping, a hermit who lived on Chengyang Mountain during the Tang Dynasty, practiced a form of Tai Chi Quan called 'San Shi Qi' or 'Thirty-Seven Postures.' He was tall, had long hair and a beard, and could run as fast as a horse. Every day he carried wood down the mountain to barter it for alcohol. . . . The movements of Xu's 37 Postures form, known as Chan Quan or the Long Form, are very close to what we practice today. . . .

"Zhan Sanfeng's Taiji Quan is called Shi San Shi or the '13 Posture Form.' It has become very popular and is the form most commonly practiced today. When people say Taiji Quan, they are usually referring to Zhang Sanfeng's form. The main variants of this style Chen style, Yang style, Wu (tone 2) style, Wu (tone 3) style, and Sun style.

"Today, with the exception of Zhang Sanfeng's form, the old styles of Taiji Quan are almost lost. Only a few old masters know anything about them. Some people even doubt the existence of these old styles, believing instead that the forms were devised within the last one hundred years."

From: Lu Shengli (translated by Zhang Yun), "Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua" (2006), p. 6, 43-45. SD is not unique for tall tales (Xu "could run as fast as a horse"). And by the way this book also discusses the qigong practice methods of "Xiantian Quan," or "Pre-birth Skills," which some SD students will recognize as what GMST called "Shien Tien Chi" or "breathing methods from before you were born" training in his chi kung or qigong classes.

Although just a theory, there is nothing to say that someone from China or somewhere else who learned what SD calls the Yang 64 or the 24 didn't have contacts with one of the other teachers at the Chuan Yen school in Indonesia. And told stories of the "Temple" Style of Zhang San Feng which according to these texts developed from Shaolin Kung Fu and into the modern forms. Just a theory.

Of course, other people have told legends and myths about the origins of martial arts, always have. But we have a responsibility not to get the myths confused with actual knowable history and lineage. Yang style taijiquan is a fairly recent historical development, it is less than 200 years old, the story of where it came from is well known, the people involved historically verifiable. The fact is, we learned Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form, and the Beijing simplified 24 posture form (and some also got the Chen style 83 postures laojia), with some changes due to 'artistic license' perhaps. So telling the tales of hermits and monks inventing taijiquan is nice, but the forms we learned have specific knowable histories which should be taught. It is a bit delusional for people to keep denying that these are the same forms we learned. The best that could be said, if you want to insist that Sin The has an actual lineage in taijiquan, is that he learned some strange unknown style somewhere and chose to superimpose that style onto the framework of these well-known modern forms for some reason, rather than teaching taijiquan the way he originally learned it. Of course, that theory is not likely in the least. It is much more likely that Sin The had a brief introduction to taijiquan and the other internal arts, and taught the forms he picked up the best he could, adding to his knowledge over the years as instruction sources became available. You could, perhaps, say that SD's taijiquan forms are "cover versions" of the original CMC 37 and simplified 24, equally valid to the originals due to artistic license and the fact that Sin The worked out applications for his movements. (Myself, I prefer the original Yang style to the way I was taught in CSC). By no means do we have a basis for thinking they are really ancient styles linked to any temple.

[brucereiter]

Look familiar
http://youtu.be/sR0FLOJyQQA

Things that make you go Hummm KC

This is not the same form as cmc/yang 64 forms. Kc what is your point in posting this video?

What does this video have to do with the tai chi CHUAN sin the teaches.
This tai chi CHUAN group seems to be more heath oriented and offers some very expensive ($8000) for a 2 day chi kung class... http://www.chikung.com/ has more info.
Kc did you read the history and information about this person and style?

[brucereiter]

http://youtu.be/pVHwDNo2LB8
For your entertainment KC

That's pretty cool

[kwaichang]

In discussing the Yang 64 I do not know what or who taught you but I see some similariities to the CMC 37 but not as many as the Yang Temple form I posted. So which form is it more likely to have derived from the Temple one or the Other. I think the Temple form not CMC form at least as I was taught. KC

[brucereiter]

In discussing the Yang 64 I do not know what or who taught you but I see some similariities to the CMC 37 but not as many as the Yang Temple form I posted. So which form is it more likely to have derived from the Temple one or the Other. I think the Temple form not CMC form at least as I was taught. KC

Kc you should check out Waysun Liao he is the "leader" of that tai chi group.
Waysun Liao says he learned in Taiwan at a Taoist temple by a wandering monk.

[brucereiter]

Kc what similarities do you see in the waysun Liao tai chi style and yang 64 as sin he teaches it?

[Leto]

This is what i was explaining with the posting of the Wu Dang style form and the mention that many forms are called 64 or 37 or 108 or whatever. KC

It isn't just about the naming/numbering. Yes, there are other Yang style 64 posture and 37 posture forms out there, and they are different than the SD form. actually, the same traditional Yang style long form is named differently according to who you talk to, some number it 108, some 103, some 88, some don't bother numbering it, but it is all the same form. When you actually look at the contents of the SD 64 form, it is identical to Cheng Man Chings's 37 posture form, that is what I base my conclusion on, not the name. You even posted a link to a performance of the form which should make it obvious. Don't get thrown off by Cheng Man Ching's super relaxed performance that we see on those old films of him, or the slight differences in stance and hand position, look past the performance and see the postures. There are the same postures in the same order. What are the odds that two people, from different parts of China and separated by decades or centuries, coincidentally came up with the exact same sequence of postures? Or do you think Cheng Man Ching really learned the form from someone else, and he lied about having created it from the Yang long form that he was taught? Do you think SD's 64 form is really Yang style like we were told, or do you think it is something else? All I have to go on is the actual material, I can't believe anything Sin The and his students have said. What is your basis for saying the 64 form is not the same as Cheng Man Ching's? What specifically are the parts that you feel indicate they are not the same form? Could they really have so many identical matching postures but not be from the same source?

I'll tell you the differences from the way I learned it with CMC's form.

1. - lift hands posture was done incorrectly, I learned it more like a ridge hand before coming down to the shoulder
2. - I was told that there was a second white crane spreads wings after the first brush knee and step (later I saw this was just a misinterpretation of the intermediate movement that leads into the brush knee posture)
3. - we called "deflect parry and punch" "plant hammer under the sleeve" for some reason
4. - I was taught that "embrace the tiger, return to mountain" was a movement that came before cross hands, a low scooping movement with the back of the hand leading to a takedown in a horse stance, rather than it being a brush knee-like movement that follows cross hands, and going in a north-western direction (if cross hands is facing south).
5. - There was a full grasping sparrows tail, with a ward off, directly to the north, following the cross hands, rather than embrace the tiger, roll back, press and push. I could see how someone would misinterpret that sequence as such, the embrace tiger posture is only subtly different.
6. - there was an intermediate "tiao" palm like movement directly to the south following the setup to single whip, and then a regular single whip stepping out directly to the east, instead of a simple diagonal single whip to the south east. I can also understand how this developed, if someone was having trouble with the diagonal directions or wanted to cut them out for some reason.
7.- fist under elbow posture was not called that, I don't think we had a name for it. We set it up with another ridge hand-like movement with the right hand, which isn't too far off from how the posture is supposed to be, but the left hand stayed stationary until it moved up sort of like in hands play the guitar, and the right hand pulled back into a chambered fist. again, I can see how fist under elbow could devolve into this if someone only had a picture of the ending posture and didn't get where it came from.
8. - cloud hands is performed stationary in a sort of horse stance, and only three repetitions (two to the left and one to the right). I also learned it in a strange way, with one hand sort of waving as you lower it while the other rises. The waist movement was largely missing, instead there was just a slight shifting of weight from one leg to the other. The cloud hands footwork can be difficult to get, I could understand someone leaving it out if they couldn't follow it from the pictures in the book. The posture is listed three times, but normally each mention of cloud hands refers to the movement on both the left and right side which includes one complete step out to the left and step up with the right leg. So that would be a total of six times you wave your hands, not three. Of course, from what I understand the number of repititions of these types of moves were not really considered all that important, as long as you end up in the correct place.
9. - Snake creeps down, or low single whip, was taught with a bit of an extraneous movement with the hand swooping out and back in again before the beak hand hooks forward and is pulled back while the left hand strikes forward in a splitting motion. This is rather than the simple scooping motion which happens in normal Yang style.
10. - I was taught three golden rooster stands on one leg instead of two, on the final one-leg stand you are on the left leg with the right leg up, and move immediately into the kick.
11. - the first kicks/separate leg posture is preceded by a crane-like hand flick movement, and the hands go straight out to the sides with palms out while kicking rather than one arm over the kicking leg and the other arm towards the rear. There is no rolling back type movement setting up the kicks as there is in normal Yang style. The second kick is followed by another hand flick, before rotating to the west to thrust with the heel, where again the arms are straight out to the side.
12. - instead of plant the fist, I was taught another "under the sleeve plant the hammer" move here, aka the punch part of deflect, parry and punch, but in a horse stance instead of forward stance. We called it a "special" plant hammer under sleeve.
13. - eachof the fair maiden works the shuttles was followed by pulling back the upper hand and flicking it out again like a crane wing attack, before turning and stepping into the next works the shuttle movement.
14. - I was taught turn and sweep with lotus leg and bend bow to shoot tiger in a messed up way. Following ride the tiger, we would start turning like the beginning of sweep with lotus leg, but instead of finishing the 360 degree turn/sweep and then kicking with an outward crescent (lotus leg) kick, we would twist all the way facing east again, step back with the left leg and do what we called bend the bow to shoot the tiger, which was similar to the the first half of that posture from original Yang style, then we would do what we called "hang the lotus" and do a sort of scooping kick with the right leg, which could also be a side thrust, and then move into deflect, parry, and punch. It's like bend the bow was stuck in the middle of turn and sweep the lotus leg, and the outward crescent kick is replaced with a raising side kick.
15. Once again, cross hands is performed differently, with a lead in move that we called "embrace the tiger return to the mountain". For the actual cross hands, there is an extra movement where the right leg and arm trace a circle inward and then outward again into a horse stance where the actual cross hands finishing posture occurs, rather than in a more natural stance as in the normal Yang style.

- All the postures occur in the same order in SD 64 and CMC 37. Note the only thing out of order was the sweep the lotus leg and bend the bow, and that wasn't entirely out of order, but sort of combined. Some of the naming may be different, the numbering is different, and some postures have added movements or small differences, but the similarities are too great to ignore. The differences can be understood and explained mostly by "migration" over time due to unorthodox or partial instruction, or in some cases possibly deliberate alterations in order to brand the form as something different from its origin. The way I learned this form from CSC may even have more "migration" than the version you guys in the east learned, so yours might be even closer to the original.

[kwaichang]

I learned the form 3 x once before Sd one in Tn , once in Tx and once in Lex. Ky. That being said all 3 do the form different. also with the Pa kua and with the Hsing Ie. However the angles and flow was different more like the Temple one I posted. There are many versions of Tai Chi and the Large Frame as I was taught it is different than the one you are comparing it to.. Any way you may be right it could have came from CMC but there are many differences and similarities, and perhaps the main progression was copied and then altered as you said. But having Trained in Yang Style prior to Sd and then doing SD under 3 different SD Master level and elder master teachers I just think it is from a Tai Chi that is very similar as most are except of course Wu Dong types. KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/Th0-NPVpaF8

I like this one best of all. Who said Tai Chi has to be slow. KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/U-kRaR8yfqg
See if you can do this form Guys It is a True master KC

[Leto]

In discussing the Yang 64 I do not know what or who taught you but I see some similariities to the CMC 37 but not as many as the Yang Temple form I posted. So which form is it more likely to have derived from the Temple one or the Other. I think the Temple form not CMC form at least as I was taught. KC

The temple form you posted was only the first section. The order of movements is identical, of course, the first section is the same for all Yang style forms. Even from just that much, it has a significant difference to the way I learned the form. For one, we don't use that toes and knees-inward sitting posture. He does deflect, parry and punch in a weird way, not at all like we do it. Of course
He does seem to emphasize low stances, which is the way we were taught as well. But that is not out of the realm of traditional Yang style, either. There are different ways to practice the form, and lower stances with bigger expansive movements is one way, the "large frame" way, which will be more physically strenuous. Cheng Man Ching taught a very "small frame" way, but the content of his form is exactly the postures from the traditional Yang long form he learned from Yang Cheng Fu. Where else can we see this "temple" Yang style, except from this guy? I would need to see the whole thing before I could consider agreeing with you. I based my decision on watching film of Cheng Man Ching and his students, reading the book of his form, and learning from someone who knows the form. Do you think Sin The learned this "temple style", and then decided to practice the postures in the order created by Cheng Man Ching? Why would he do that? Does anyone other than Waysun Liao and his students teach "temple style"?

After looking up Waysun Liao, it appears the form he uses for his "temple tai chi" is also Cheng Man Ching's form, he supposedly studied with Cheng Man Ching. So, what we practice is absolutely related to the temple style, because they are both dervied from Cheng Man Ching's form. So maybe Sin The learned something from Liao and adopted some of his mannerisms, but I doubt it. Liao is five years younger than Sin The, at the time yang 64 was introduced to SD students, Liao would only have been a teenager or in his early twenties. Does anyone know if Liao Waysun was living in Lexington at the same time as SD was starting up?

[brucereiter]

It isn't just about the naming/numbering. Yes, there are other Yang style 64 posture and 37 posture forms out there, and they are different than the SD form. actually, the same traditional Yang style long form is named differently according to who you talk to, some number it 108, some 103, some 88, some don't bother numbering it, but it is all the same form. When you actually look at the contents of the SD 64 form, it is identical to Cheng Man Chings's 37 posture form, that is what I base my conclusion on, not the name. You even posted a link to a performance of the form which should make it obvious. Don't get thrown off by Cheng Man Ching's super relaxed performance that we see on those old films of him, or the slight differences in stance and hand position, look past the performance and see the postures. There are the same postures in the same order. What are the odds that two people, from different parts of China and separated by decades or centuries, coincidentally came up with the exact same sequence of postures? Or do you think Cheng Man Ching really learned the form from someone else, and he lied about having created it from the Yang long form that he was taught? Do you think SD's 64 form is really Yang style like we were told, or do you think it is something else? All I have to go on is the actual material, I can't believe anything Sin The and his students have said. What is your basis for saying the 64 form is not the same as Cheng Man Ching's? What specifically are the parts that you feel indicate they are not the same form? Could they really have so many identical matching postures but not be from the same source?

I'll tell you the differences from the way I learned it with CMC's form.

1. - lift hands posture was done incorrectly, I learned it more like a ridge hand before coming down to the shoulder
2. - I was told that there was a second white crane spreads wings after the first brush knee and step (later I saw this was just a misinterpretation of the intermediate movement that leads into the brush knee posture)
3. - we called "deflect parry and punch" "plant hammer under the sleeve" for some reason
4. - I was taught that "embrace the tiger, return to mountain" was a movement that came before cross hands, a low scooping movement with the back of the hand leading to a takedown in a horse stance, rather than it being a brush knee-like movement that follows cross hands, and going in a north-western direction (if cross hands is facing south).
5. - There was a full grasping sparrows tail, with a ward off, directly to the north, following the cross hands, rather than embrace the tiger, roll back, press and push. I could see how someone would misinterpret that sequence as such, the embrace tiger posture is only subtly different.
6. - there was an intermediate "tiao" palm like movement directly to the south following the setup to single whip, and then a regular single whip stepping out directly to the east, instead of a simple diagonal single whip to the south east. I can also understand how this developed, if someone was having trouble with the diagonal directions or wanted to cut them out for some reason.
7.- fist under elbow posture was not called that, I don't think we had a name for it. We set it up with another ridge hand-like movement with the right hand, which isn't too far off from how the posture is supposed to be, but the left hand stayed stationary until it moved up sort of like in hands play the guitar, and the right hand pulled back into a chambered fist. again, I can see how fist under elbow could devolve into this if someone only had a picture of the ending posture and didn't get where it came from.
8. - cloud hands is performed stationary in a sort of horse stance, and only three repetitions (two to the left and one to the right). I also learned it in a strange way, with one hand sort of waving as you lower it while the other rises. The waist movement was largely missing, instead there was just a slight shifting of weight from one leg to the other. The cloud hands footwork can be difficult to get, I could understand someone leaving it out if they couldn't follow it from the pictures in the book. The posture is listed three times, but normally each mention of cloud hands refers to the movement on both the left and right side which includes one complete step out to the left and step up with the right leg. So that would be a total of six times you wave your hands, not three. Of course, from what I understand the number of repititions of these types of moves were not really considered all that important, as long as you end up in the correct place.
9. - Snake creeps down, or low single whip, was taught with a bit of an extraneous movement with the hand swooping out and back in again before the beak hand hooks forward and is pulled back while the left hand strikes forward in a splitting motion. This is rather than the simple scooping motion which happens in normal Yang style.
10. - I was taught three golden rooster stands on one leg instead of two, on the final one-leg stand you are on the left leg with the right leg up, and move immediately into the kick.
11. - the first kicks/separate leg posture is preceded by a crane-like hand flick movement, and the hands go straight out to the sides with palms out while kicking rather than one arm over the kicking leg and the other arm towards the rear. There is no rolling back type movement setting up the kicks as there is in normal Yang style. The second kick is followed by another hand flick, before rotating to the west to thrust with the heel, where again the arms are straight out to the side.
12. - instead of plant the fist, I was taught another "under the sleeve plant the hammer" move here, aka the punch part of deflect, parry and punch, but in a horse stance instead of forward stance. We called it a "special" plant hammer under sleeve.
13. - eachof the fair maiden works the shuttles was followed by pulling back the upper hand and flicking it out again like a crane wing attack, before turning and stepping into the next works the shuttle movement.
14. - I was taught turn and sweep with lotus leg and bend bow to shoot tiger in a messed up way. Following ride the tiger, we would start turning like the beginning of sweep with lotus leg, but instead of finishing the 360 degree turn/sweep and then kicking with an outward crescent (lotus leg) kick, we would twist all the way facing east again, step back with the left leg and do what we called bend the bow to shoot the tiger, which was similar to the the first half of that posture from original Yang style, then we would do what we called "hang the lotus" and do a sort of scooping kick with the right leg, which could also be a side thrust, and then move into deflect, parry, and punch. It's like bend the bow was stuck in the middle of turn and sweep the lotus leg, and the outward crescent kick is replaced with a raising side kick.
15. Once again, cross hands is performed differently, with a lead in move that we called "embrace the tiger return to the mountain". For the actual cross hands, there is an extra movement where the right leg and arm trace a circle inward and then outward again into a horse stance where the actual cross hands finishing posture occurs, rather than in a more natural stance as in the normal Yang style.

- All the postures occur in the same order in SD 64 and CMC 37. Note the only thing out of order was the sweep the lotus leg and bend the bow, and that wasn't entirely out of order, but sort of combined. Some of the naming may be different, the numbering is different, and some postures have added movements or small differences, but the similarities are too great to ignore. The differences can be understood and explained mostly by "migration" over time due to unorthodox or partial instruction, or in some cases possibly deliberate alterations in order to brand the form as something different from its origin. The way I learned this form from CSC may even have more "migration" than the version you guys in the east learned, so yours might be even closer to the original.

That was a good and accurate account in my opinion.

[brucereiter]

posted by leto
>>>>>
4. - I was taught that "embrace the tiger, return to mountain" was a movement that came before cross hands, a low scooping movement with the back of the hand leading to a takedown in a horse stance, rather than it being a brush knee-like movement that follows cross hands, and going in a north-western direction (if cross hands is facing south).
5. - There was a full grasping sparrows tail, with a ward off, directly to the north, following the cross hands, rather than embrace the tiger, roll back, press and push. I could see how someone would misinterpret that sequence as such, the embrace tiger posture is only subtly different.
6. - there was an intermediate "tiao" palm like movement directly to the south following the setup to single whip, and then a regular single whip stepping out directly to the east, instead of a simple diagonal single whip to the south east. I can also understand how this developed, if someone was having trouble with the diagonal directions or wanted to cut them out for some reason.
<<<<<

this post is actually helpful to my study. i have been trying to understand the way i do embrace the tiger and return to the mountain and "finger fork" is what the diagonal single whip was called in atlanta. those are my least understood postures in that form.
i have "made up" a few applications for them but .... i could use some insight into a better method of practicing it in the context of the yang 64 form i practice.
do you or any other "sd" people have any more comments on that part of the form?

i got the cmc book in 1997 since it was the only publication that matched what we were doing i thought the book was very interesting and useful. one of the things that i always wondered is about diagonal single whip and embrace the tiger and return to the mountain. those were the postures that were the most different from how i was doing it.

a few years ago when the videos of cmc became available it was very insightful to look and learn.

[Leto]

posted by leto
>>>>>
4. - I was taught that "embrace the tiger, return to mountain" was a movement that came before cross hands, a low scooping movement with the back of the hand leading to a takedown in a horse stance, rather than it being a brush knee-like movement that follows cross hands, and going in a north-western direction (if cross hands is facing south).
5. - There was a full grasping sparrows tail, with a ward off, directly to the north, following the cross hands, rather than embrace the tiger, roll back, press and push. I could see how someone would misinterpret that sequence as such, the embrace tiger posture is only subtly different.
6. - there was an intermediate "tiao" palm like movement directly to the south following the setup to single whip, and then a regular single whip stepping out directly to the east, instead of a simple diagonal single whip to the south east. I can also understand how this developed, if someone was having trouble with the diagonal directions or wanted to cut them out for some reason.
<<<<<

this post is actually helpful to my study. i have been trying to understand the way i do embrace the tiger and return to the mountain and "finger fork" is what the diagonal single whip was called in atlanta. those are my least understood postures in that form.
i have "made up" a few applications for them but .... i could use some insight into a better method of practicing it in the context of the yang 64 form i practice.
do you or any other "sd" people have any more comments on that part of the form?

i got the cmc book in 1997 since it was the only publication that matched what we were doing i thought the book was very interesting and useful. one of the things that i always wondered is about diagonal single whip and embrace the tiger and return to the mountain. those were the postures that were the most different from how i was doing it.

a few years ago when the videos of cmc became available it was very insightful to look and learn.

I also got Cheng's book on his form, and made some adjustments from there, and watched the videos of him and other people practicing his form. I also got Yang Cheng Fu's book on the traditional form. I met someone who practiced Cheng's form and practiced with them briefly, I picked up some things from him. I didn't try to understand or salvage the way CSC taught me, my assumption was that the differences were mostly mistakes made in interpreting what had been learned (on the part of me, my teacher, and all the way up to Sin The), and I changed my practice to the more conventional Yang way, taking guidance from the texts and videos to correct me. The diagonal single whip is just a regular single whip except for the direction you're pointing relative to the starting position. I think it's application is the same as all single whips, since your feet and body move in the same manner relative to your starting position with the push to the northwest: you turn 180 degrees and end up with a single whip to the southeast.

I found the video below very useful for getting some details in the Yang style long form, much of which is identical to the sequences CMC used. Of course there are also postures in the long form which are also found in the simplified 24 postures, if you still practice it, and I've changed how I pratice those as well, such as the "wave hands in clouds" that I originally used replaced with fan through the back, and correcting how I do chop with fist and deflect, parry and punch (aka plant hammer under the sleeve). It actually isn't hard to pick up the long form with the content of both CMC's form and the 24 form under your belt. There are only a few postures not found in either form.
It is a five hour seminar, and it covers details of the entire form. I think Yang Jun's (the grandson's) demonstrations are pretty stiff (maybe he's doing it on purpose for demonstration purpose), I just skipped over those parts, but Yang ZhenDuo goes into great detail during his explanations.

Part2 starts with embrace tiger return to mountain, he explains it at 3:52. It really is pretty simple, as I understand it. The pictures in the books make it hard to see. When I saw my friend do it, I asked him about it and he said it is just like a brush knee and press but stepping back and turning from the south to the northwest, followed immediately by a rolling back. That's what the video shows, too. There is an arm grab application in the transition from the brush knee to the roll back. My interpretation of the photo of that posture shown in Cheng's book is that it is describing the intermediate stage between the brush knee and press and the rollback, which is really the only different thing about it, where the lower hand has just turned palm up and is about to rise up for the grab and roll back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUnXFvDeGII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNa-Y2AkII8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wptDgG4IvU

[brucereiter]

I also got Cheng's book on his form, and made some adjustments from there, and watched the videos of him and other people practicing his form. I also got Yang Cheng Fu's book on the traditional form. I met someone who practiced Cheng's form and practiced with them briefly, I picked up some things from him. I didn't try to understand or salvage the way CSC taught me, my assumption was that the differences were mostly mistakes made in interpreting what had been learned (on the part of me, my teacher, and all the way up to Sin The), and I changed my practice to the more conventional Yang way, taking guidance from the texts and videos to correct me. The diagonal single whip is just a regular single whip except for the direction you're pointing relative to the starting position. I think it's application is the same as all single whips, since your feet and body move in the same manner relative to your starting position with the push to the northwest: you turn 180 degrees and end up with a single whip to the southeast.

I found the video below very useful for getting some details in the Yang style long form, much of which is identical to the sequences CMC used. Of course there are also postures in the long form which are also found in the simplified 24 postures, if you still practice it, and I've changed how I pratice those as well, such as the "wave hands in clouds" that I originally used replaced with fan through the back, and correcting how I do chop with fist and deflect, parry and punch (aka plant hammer under the sleeve). It actually isn't hard to pick up the long form with the content of both CMC's form and the 24 form under your belt. There are only a few postures not found in either form.
It is a five hour seminar, and it covers details of the entire form. I think Yang Jun's (the grandson's) demonstrations are pretty stiff (maybe he's doing it on purpose for demonstration purpose), I just skipped over those parts, but Yang ZhenDuo goes into great detail during his explanations.

Part2 starts with embrace tiger return to mountain, he explains it at 3:52. It really is pretty simple, as I understand it. The pictures in the books make it hard to see. When I saw my friend do it, I asked him about it and he said it is just like a brush knee and press but stepping back and turning from the south to the northwest, followed immediately by a rolling back. That's what the video shows, too. There is an arm grab application in the transition from the brush knee to the roll back. My interpretation of the photo of that posture shown in Cheng's book is that it is describing the intermediate stage between the brush knee and press and the rollback, which is really the only different thing about it, where the lower hand has just turned palm up and is about to rise up for the grab and roll back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUnXFvDeGII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNa-Y2AkII8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wptDgG4IvU

Thanks Leto

[tattooedmonk]

Anyone that is interested in the Shaolin forum please send me an email address, thank you.

[Syn7]

Anyone that is interested in the Shaolin forum please send me an email address, thank you.

Thought you were gonna post up all this great info? It's been 5 days since Xmas. I actually believed you may not punk out. Guess I was wrong.

All I see is invites to a circlejerk. And that's fine. But it's not what you said you would do. I'm expecting a formal essay on why the 5 Animals in SD was not taken from DFWs book and isn't from the Lau Bun lineage. Can you even do that? Just be honest. If you can't, I'll drop it. I just need to see you write that you don't have what you said you did. Otherwise, post up. Don't get all selective and secretive after all that **** talking you did about this amazing revealing research. Throw down, son.

[hskwarrior]

You know he has nothin. He's bluffin. Always has.

[RJ797]

Those on here that do tai Chi should push hands with Master Leonard or Joe Schaefer in Texas, you will be schooled very quickly in Push hand , JS in austin defeated the push hand champion while on one of the trips to China I believe it was 2002?. any way i guess their skill was just dropped out of the sky. KC

Bruce would destroy Joe or Bill - easily.

[kwaichang]

Keep Thinking that ? Not doubting Bruces ability though . KC

[hskwarrior]

http://poststuff2.entensity.net/122812/image.php?pic=5.gifhttp://poststuff2.entensity.net/122812/image.php?pic=5.gif

[Syn7]

You know he has nothin. He's bluffin. Always has.

Starting to look that way. I gave him the benefit of doubt, but that is falling away fast.


Keep Thinking that ? Not doubting Bruces ability though . KC

No, it looks like you're just making the assumption that the other two guys are better because you are emotionally attached.

I could be wrong though. How many times have you seen Bruce do serious push hands with high end competition? I'm going to assume you have seen the other two many times considering your previous definitive statements about their great skills.

[kwaichang]

I have pushed hands with both I have pushed hands with Chen style and others I been defeated often, i am no great push hands expert. I am not doubting Bruces ability, and no I have not pushed hands with him, however Joe defeated the Chinese Push hand champion in I think 2002 on a china Trip I watched the clip, EM leonard is probably 3 X that good. Who knows . Who would win? Any given day anyone can lose. But I have no personal dog in the fight, my statements are purely Objective I really dont know where you this personal judgemental attitude about me and SD. I hold allegance to no one In Japan I would be considered a Ronin, KC

[Syn7]

Yeah, and Matt Serra destroyed GSP. Once. It means very little. The only lesson there is that even the best can't win 100% of the time. But 99% is pretty **** good.

When I first started BJJ, I tapped a few high level guys. It meant nothing. On average they would roll me up with ease.




No allegiance??? You still call SKT 'Master'. Grandmaster even. You have a huge emotional attachment to SD. It's written all over everything you say. Just like it's obvious I have zero to no respect for SD in general and I have a significant distaste for SKT and his "type". He may be the nicest guy in the world, but he's still fraudulent. I suppose it's arguable as to how fraudulent, but there is fraud there. Clearly...!!!! A little is more than enough. If you lie just a little, you're still ****in liar!

[kwaichang]

I call Master Pui Chan Master too but I never took a lesson from him, what does that mean, It is a sign of respect, He taught me alot and I respect him for that. You need to remember Judge not , as you Judge so shall you be judged. So doyou want to come on here and say You have never Lied? You are a liar too , you are a friggen Liar, interchangable. KC

[Syn7]

I call Master Pui Chan Master too but I never took a lesson from him, what does that mean, It is a sign of respect, He taught me alot and I respect him for that. You need to remember Judge not , as you Judge so shall you be judged. So do want to come on here and say You have never Lied? You are a liar too , you are a friggen Liar, adjetive interchangable. KC

Judge away. Is this supposed to bother me some how???

Yeah I have lied before. Of course. So have you. We are all liars in that respect. We lie to eachother everyday. Social conventions demand it. You play along or you can take a stand and stick out for it.


What I didn't do was lie to people who respected me and looked up to me while I was collecting funds from them or their parents. If you don't see the difference, that's on you.

And for the record, I call nobody Master. Teacher, sure. Master? Never! The term is too subjective for me to consider as a title. Never happen. I say one day I hope to be a master, I'm not actually thinking I will be a master. I'm saying I will always strive for a perfection I can never attain, thus I continue growing. I find the term to be quite arrogant actually. But that's another topic for another day.

[Syn7]

Speaking of judging...

People judge all the time. To say you don't is a lie. I kinda get a kick out of it. Like the other day I was at the liquor store to get some thins for xmas. It was cold and I walked there. I had a toque on and my hood up and was just wearing track pants. Some dick totally profiled me and when I was about 30 feet away from the store with all the bottles in my backpack and my book in my hand I can tell this guy is running at me. I always look all around me and I make a point to know who's around me in any and all situations. It's not even conscious, it's just how I do. Anyways, so I see this guy in a car windows reflection coming my way. I didn't move away, just kept on like normal. I mean, it's possible he was gonna run right passed me. So I kept watching and sure enough he came right to me in some weak attempt at a tackle. I side stepped but left a foot in his path and down he went. Hard. Like face smashing concrete hard. So it was this huge deal. I helped him up and make sure he wasn't gonna die on me. Some lady that saw it all called 911. Cops and ambulance came.

So it turns out he saw my book and in some ****ed up process that in his profile of me he decided I had taken a card swiper. Which doesn't even make sense if you understand how they work. He decided I needed to be stopped and he paid for it. I didn't get into trouble or anything. All I really did was not get tackled for a crime I did not commit. A few people didn't like what I did, but they couldn't do anything about it. I'm more of a re-escalate than a de-escalate guy unless I'm totally out gunned in which case I'm more likely to not even be there.

So is that the same as me dissing SKT? Not at all. SKT has given me much to despise, and none of it has to do with how he dresses or looks like. Unlike the guy who came after me who just judged me on how he thought I was by how I dressed that day. You don't see me making these kinds of judgments. They are weak. But I will judge based on valid info, always. Anyone doesn't like that? They can just go away. Cause I'm not going anywhere til I feel like it.

[sean_stonehart]

I have pushed hands with both I have pushed hands with Chen style and others I been defeated often, i am no great push hands expert. I am not doubting Bruces ability, and no I have not pushed hands with him, however Joe defeated the Chinese Push hand champion in I think 2002 on a china Trip I watched the clip, EM leonard is probably 3 X that good. Who knows . Who would win? Any given day anyone can lose. But I have no personal dog in the fight, my statements are purely Objective I really dont know where you this personal judgemental attitude about me and SD. I hold allegance to no one In Japan I would be considered a Ronin, KC

Eh... that match... don't read too much into it.

It was expressed as a "friendly" match. One side had one idea, one side had another. It's amazing what happens when they're not thinking the same thing & they only go once.

[kwaichang]

Well I must have struck a nerve with ya. Truth hurts dont it. Let those who are without sin cast the 1st stone.
Here is Syn 7 doing his martial arts teaching !!!!!
http://youtu.be/t1JOhuuaYpg

Happy New Year Syn may your next one be a Happy and Gay one I am sure it will be. KC

[hskwarrior]

oh **** jim carey was a student of Shaolin Do under Sin The.......thas not such a good thing. :p

[tattooedmonk]

Thought you were gonna post up all this great info? It's been 5 days since Xmas. I actually believed you may not punk out. Guess I was wrong.

All I see is invites to a circlejerk. And that's fine. But it's not what you said you would do. I'm expecting a formal essay on why the 5 Animals in SD was not taken from DFWs book and isn't from the Lau Bun lineage. Can you even do that? Just be honest. If you can't, I'll drop it. I just need to see you write that you don't have what you said you did. Otherwise, post up. Don't get all selective and secretive after all that **** talking you did about this amazing revealing research. Throw down, son.
Three things...it's still christmas(7thday), I am waiting for a couple of email responses, and a delivery of a package.

It is the holidays.....

If I fail to make the deadline I created, then I do. I don't give a **** what any of you say.

[hskwarrior]

if i fail to make the deadline i created, then i do. I don't give a **** what any of you say.

das ok cuz we knows u full of sh1t.

[kwaichang]

This is Syn 7 in his training last week.
http://youtu.be/QWlJndr3BKE

Enjoy KC

[Syn7]

Well I must have struck a nerve with ya. Truth hurts dont it. Let those who are without sin cast the 1st stone.
Here is Syn 7 doing his martial arts teaching !!!!!
http://youtu.be/t1JOhuuaYpg

Happy New Year Syn may your next one be a Happy and Gay one I am sure it will be. KC

WTF are you on about now? Got under my skin how? By judging me? Go nutz. Do your worst. All good.

I think I have clearly displayed that I have no issue with "casting the first stone" and I look forward to it coming back at me. I have been quite clear about this. If I was worried about conflict I would just keep my mouth shut and not speak my mind. As it stands, I don't give a ****. You're words intrigue me on a "let's see just how dumb this cat really is" kind of way.

Two more things. First, show me a person w/o sin and I'll show you a fraud. Second, if you had half a brain, you would have made a clever pun out of my name with that lil quote. I can think of a few off the top of my head.



Three things...it's still christmas(7thday), I am waiting for a couple of email responses, and a delivery of a package.

It is the holidays.....

If I fail to make the deadline I created, then I do. I don't give a **** what any of you say.

Fair enough. My bad. I mean, you just talked so much ****, I just assumed you had the ability to meet your own deadline. You know, the one where you talked tons of trash and told us all how wrong we were and how we would feel so dumb on the 25th. I sincerely apologize for being so wrong. Really, it was my bad. :rolleyes:


That's good that you don't care what people say about this. What's not good is that you seem to be okay with signing cheques your ass can't cash then backing off like it was no bog deal. **** what I think of you, but you shouldn't lie to yourself like that. You know you done ****ed up. Self acknowledgement would be a positive step in working on those delusions tho.

[Syn7]

This is Syn 7 in his training last week.
http://youtu.be/QWlJndr3BKE

Enjoy KC

You think about me way too much.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Bruce would destroy Joe or Bill - easily.

Lol...when the purpose of push hands becomes "to win," you're not doing push hands.

It always annoys me when people turn push hands into secondrate wrestling/chi sau.

[Shaolin Wookie]

In discussing the Yang 64 I do not know what or who taught you but I see some similariities to the CMC 37 but not as many as the Yang Temple form I posted. So which form is it more likely to have derived from the Temple one or the Other. I think the Temple form not CMC form at least as I was taught. KC

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes). If SD wants a long tai chi form, seems it ought to practice a long form.

Waysun Liao published a book on Tai Chi called the "Tai Chi Classics" in which he posted drawings of a "Temple" tai chi form in the back, with postures / descriptions. Guess what? It was the CMC form, move-for-move. Personally, I think both guys (Waysun / gMS) had hte same misinformation, either consciously or ignorantly.

[Syn7]

Waysun Liao published a book on Tai Chi called the "Tai Chi Classics" in which he posted drawings of a "Temple" tai chi form in the back, with postures / descriptions. Guess what? It was the CMC form, move-for-move. Personally, I think both guys (Waysun / gMS) had hte same misinformation, either consciously or ignorantly.

Is it possible that SKT got the form from that book? Or was introduced to it by that book? I could just look for myself, but I'm not THAT curious. When was the book printed?

[Leto]

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes). If SD wants a long tai chi form, seems it ought to practice a long form.

Waysun Liao published a book on Tai Chi called the "Tai Chi Classics" in which he posted drawings of a "Temple" tai chi form in the back, with postures / descriptions. Guess what? It was the CMC form, move-for-move. Personally, I think both guys (Waysun / gMS) had hte same misinformation, either consciously or ignorantly.

Yep, that's another point I noticed. Someone in SD/CSC must have read that the traditional Yang form is meant to take 20+ minutes, and assumed that their 64/37 form was the same thing. The 64/37 should take 10-12 minutes at the most, 8 minutes or so at average speed, according to Cheng Man Ching.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Is it possible that SKT got the form from that book? Or was introduced to it by that book? I could just look for myself, but I'm not THAT curious. When was the book printed?

LOL. 2001, so no. If anything, pub. dates would work the opposite there and GMS would be the originator. (And Waysun Liao claims to have been taught by a "wandering" Taoist....or a CHinese bum...I can't recall). But I doubt he originated that claim ("Temple Tai CHi"). Some people call CMC's 37 posture short form "Temple" tai chi under the mistaken notion that it's ancient----or some BS like that. But then, many styles fallaciously claim "Temple" lineage, and whatnot (and of course we're including SD here).

It doesn't matter, though. CMC created our form as an abridgment of the long form in Taiwan in the 60's, or something like that. There's no debating it--and GMS would not have to learn the form by book. He could learn it from thousands of people in a weekend. GMS even has the particulars of CMC's practice---light shaking, small postures, no classically "pretty" motions characteristic of health tai chi. CMC's tai chi is great, but you'll notice that he almost looks "sloppy" (I think it looks great) because he doesn't exert himself in the form.

As for his (CMC's) push hands...he looks good, but he always had hte upper hand when it came to leverage. CMC was 1/2 as tall as most white guys, and the white guys in his videos were always crouched over when CMC was standing tall and even rooted. They didn't have a chance in push hands.;) Not taking aways from his skill---just his performances.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yep, that's another point I noticed. Someone in SD/CSC must have read that the traditional Yang form is meant to take 20+ minutes, and assumed that their 64/37 form was the same thing. The 64/37 should take 10-12 minutes at the most, 8 minutes or so at average speed, according to Cheng Man Ching.

The first book I read on tai chi 9 years ago was Liao's book, and not knowing much about Tai CHi at the time, I figured hte likeness in terminology/form between him and SD was evidence of common ancestry.

And then I found CMC's treatises by happenstance and realized that there were two guys out there doing CMC's form under the mistaken notion that it was the "original" form from the temple. LOL.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yep, that's another point I noticed. Someone in SD/CSC must have read that the traditional Yang form is meant to take 20+ minutes, and assumed that their 64/37 form was the same thing. The 64/37 should take 10-12 minutes at the most, 8 minutes or so at average speed, according to Cheng Man Ching.

Right. I realize that going super slow is great for beginners, and even practice in which you intend to fix particulars of a motion. But it makes no sense when you're practicing daily to get the "feeling" of tai chi---getting the tai chi form into your bones, so to speak. 8-10 minutes is far more agreeable and enlightening, and it improves your footwork greatly. Super slow tai chi always seems to have ****ty footwork, since they overanalyze weight distribution.

What the hell is 70%-30%. It's always a guess, and a shoddy one. The point is--where are you rooted, where are you off balance, and can you transition smoothly so that you can plant your foot in your opponent's defense without him noticing before it's too late. I can only laugh when some people say---I think you're about 5% too heavy on that foot during rollback.:p

[Syn7]

LOL. 2001, so no. If anything, pub. dates would work the opposite there and GMS would be the originator. (And Waysun Liao claims to have been taught by a "wandering" Taoist....or a CHinese bum...I can't recall). But I doubt he originated that claim ("Temple Tai CHi"). Some people call CMC's 37 posture short form "Temple" tai chi under the mistaken notion that it's ancient----or some BS like that. But then, many styles fallaciously claim "Temple" lineage, and whatnot (and of course we're including SD here).

It doesn't matter, though. CMC created our form as an abridgment of the long form in Taiwan in the 60's, or something like that. There's no debating it--and GMS would not have to learn the form by book. He could learn it from thousands of people in a weekend. GMS even has the particulars of CMC's practice---light shaking, small postures, no classically "pretty" motions characteristic of health tai chi. CMC's tai chi is great, but you'll notice that he almost looks "sloppy" (I think it looks great) because he doesn't exert himself in the form.

As for his (CMC's) push hands...he looks good, but he always had hte upper hand when it came to leverage. CMC was 1/2 as tall as most white guys, and the white guys in his videos were always crouched over when CMC was standing tall and even rooted. They didn't have a chance in push hands.;) Not taking aways from his skill---just his performances.

Gotcha. I have heard tons of "temple" crap over the years.

I have no doubt that it is Chengs form.

[kwaichang]

This is Syn 7 in his training last week.
http://youtu.be/QWlJndr3BKE

Enjoy KC

WEll Syn when I think Comedy I think YOU. You are so funny, You really should quit taking youirself soooooo seriously KC

[sean_stonehart]

Lol...when the purpose of push hands becomes "to win," you're not doing push hands.

It always annoys me when people turn push hands into secondrate wrestling/chi sau.

But that's exactly what push hands is for. To train upsetting an opponent's root, locking their body, offsetting balance & hopefully in the end, throwing them. There's a ton of shuai in taiji. Lots of it... all over. Push hands is a way to work entries, checks, guard work... wow, sounds a lot like .... :D ... but different.

[Empty_Cup]

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes).
...

Re: duration of form. IMO TJQ should incorporate breathing meditation. So the duration of the form should follow from one's natural breathing rhythm.

If one wants to train something specific about the form and not connect the breathing, then go as fast or as slow as you need to train that aspect.

[RJ797]

But that's exactly what push hands is for. To train upsetting an opponent's root, locking their body, offsetting balance & hopefully in the end, throwing them. There's a ton of shuai in taiji. Lots of it... all over. Push hands is a way to work entries, checks, guard work... wow, sounds a lot like .... :D ... but different.

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

[bodhi warrior]

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

Nice! You have any other stories from the past? I like hearing them.

[kwaichang]

My point in bringing this factoid up is Both Master Joe and Master Smith are students of SKT and that said their skills are derived from the source of instruction. While GMT may not be the best forms person he apparently taught something to someone for them to do so well in China. KC

[Syn7]

My point in bringing this factoid up is Both Master Joe and Master Smith are students of SKT and that said their skills are derived from the source of instruction. While GMT may not be the best forms person he apparently taught something to someone for them to do so well in China. KC

Show me some clips of their greatness, please.

[Syn7]

Is that a "No, I couldn't be bothered?" or is that a "No, despite the fact that every cell phone has a video cam on it, there are no videos of these long time MAists doing their thing."


"But I seened it, I done sweared I seened it!!!"

[hskwarrior]

Is that a "No, I couldn't be bothered?" or is that a "No, despite the fact that every cell phone has a video cam on it, there are no videos of these long time MAists doing their thing."


"But I seened it, I done sweared I seened it!!!"

makes you wonder whats there to see huh?

[Syn7]

:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

i bet that loser is kicking himself for making wild claims. all talk. no action. wahhh wahhh wahhhhhhhhhhh. its kinda sad. :(

nah, its hella funny how he bumped his gums and is now backtracking.

[Judge Pen]

Starting to look that way. I gave him the benefit of doubt, but that is falling away fast.



No, it looks like you're just making the assumption that the other two guys are better because you are emotionally attached.

I could be wrong though. How many times have you seen Bruce do serious push hands with high end competition? I'm going to assume you have seen the other two many times considering your previous definitive statements about their great skills.

I've never pushed hands with Joe Schaffer or Bill Leonard, but I did push hands with Bruce once (man that's been almost 8 years ago now). Bruce was good: very, very good. He humbled me cause I thought I was good then too but I was outclassed. But at least the Bruce that I knew 8 years ago was not better than Master Garry or his son Master Mike in my opinion (at least at that time). I can't comment on his skill today, but I'd wager he has only gotten better.

[Judge Pen]

It's CMC move-for-move. Only the "hanging lotus" kick is turned into a side thrust, and there's no stepping in the cloud hands.

There's no debate. It's the same form, exactly other than those two differences. People may play it differently stylistically, but the sequence of motions is 100% exact, and SD guys try to make it last too long (as if they were doing 108 postures). CMC always intended his form to be short (10 minutes). If SD wants a long tai chi form, seems it ought to practice a long form.

Waysun Liao published a book on Tai Chi called the "Tai Chi Classics" in which he posted drawings of a "Temple" tai chi form in the back, with postures / descriptions. Guess what? It was the CMC form, move-for-move. Personally, I think both guys (Waysun / gMS) had hte same misinformation, either consciously or ignorantly.

That's an intersting observation. SD does play it's Yang Tai Chi significantly slower than other Yang Tai Chi practitioners that I've observed. From a training standpoint I can see some benefit to that, but I think it's counter-productive from a relaxation and flow perspective.

[Judge Pen]

Exactly. Cooperative push hands has to give way to less and less cooperative push hands. Rules need to be eliminated as skill level increases - just like "regular" sparring.

I thought in Atlanta the idea was regular sparring reduced rules down to just one - Don't hurt the other guy. And that push hands rules were reduced to two #1 Don't hurt the other guy. #2 Start in contact with each other.

In the 1998 trip to Chen Village that KC is referring to when Joe did push hands with Chen Xiao Wangs nephew there were two distinct rounds. First round with the rules Chen Xiao Xing wanted. In this round Joe did well, but the other guy was better. In round two the rules are what Sin The explained in Chinese as being what I detailed above. Anything goes, but don't hurt the other guy. In this round Joe was far superior.

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

Then Chen Xiao Xing wanted a rematch and brought out the town wrestler it looked like. This guy sparred with Eric Smith and again it was a mismatch. Eric was clearly the superior martial artist.

Anyone have a video of this?

[hskwarrior]

Joe is a great fighter and Chen Xiao Wangs nephew would have lost badly in any type of "real" fight.

forget sparring and push hands for a moment. what kind of REAL fighting did this JOE have? has anyone seen him in a REAL fight? if you haven't seen him fight FOR REAL, how do you know he can fight? everyone says they can fight till they get popped in the mouth.

[shen ku]

I watched a friendly match of masters once, joe & mullins had a nice match , joe won. There was alittle blood on both parts. But Frank won the day.

[tattooedmonk]

forget sparring and push hands for a moment. what kind of REAL fighting did this JOE have? has anyone seen him in a REAL fight? if you haven't seen him fight FOR REAL, how do you know he can fight? everyone says they can fight till they get popped in the mouth.Yes...he was involved in a "king of the mountain" type of event where he had to go against all the teachers in this school where they taught multiple arts. Joe beat all the guys, the boxing coach beat all the same guys, joe beat the boxing coach.

[tattooedmonk]

Dave Perry ( R.I.P.) Was a 5th black under DS and SHS ,who constantly entered open full contact events in the Denver/ Boulder area ...One of his most noteable fights was against former UFC fighter Pat Smith... DP was disqualified for stepping on PS's head after he took him to the ground...Knocked him out!

[RJ797]

forget sparring and push hands for a moment. what kind of REAL fighting did this JOE have? has anyone seen him in a REAL fight? if you haven't seen him fight FOR REAL, how do you know he can fight? everyone says they can fight till they get popped in the mouth.

I don't know if Joe has ever been in a real serious street fight. If he has, it's unlikely any witnesses would be posting here.

Joe is a very intelligent, highly educated, level headed guy. My guess is he is way too smart to end up in a "street fight."

[Judge Pen]

I watched a friendly match of masters once, joe & mullins had a nice match , joe won. There was alittle blood on both parts. But Frank won the day.

I wouldn't consider that real as it was point sparring (even if there was blood). Joe has skill but I concur with the comments on having a "level head."

I've done lots of sparring, heavy contact with limited rules, but I haven't gotten into any "real altercation" since fending off a drunk wrestler in a college dorm hallway. That was over pretty quickly.

[hskwarrior]

i ask that because its one thing being top notch inside your school. but, if you've ever had enough streetfights you would know that a good street fighter could beat a black belt in many cases. all students feel their pretty good till they get into a street fight and realize all of their own limitations as well as skills need much more work.

where i live and mingle there is always the possibility of getting into a fight for whatever reasons. sometimes its for nothing at all but even i had realized by watching friends fight, if you don't know how to fight, martial arts isn't going to make you a better fighter. only fighting will do that. ring or the street.

luckily, i don't look like a TARGET for street thugs. they usually see me and move on to someone else.

[Empty_Cup]

i ask that because its one thing being top notch inside your school. but, if you've ever had enough streetfights you would know that a good street fighter could beat a black belt in many cases. all students feel their pretty good till they get into a street fight and realize all of their own limitations as well as skills need much more work.

where i live and mingle there is always the possibility of getting into a fight for whatever reasons. sometimes its for nothing at all but even i had realized by watching friends fight, if you don't know how to fight, martial arts isn't going to make you a better fighter. only fighting will do that. ring or the street.

luckily, i don't look like a TARGET for street thugs. they usually see me and move on to someone else.

So did you just ask your question to tell us all how much of an internet BA you are?

[hskwarrior]

So did you just ask your question to tell us all how much of an internet BA you are?

do you type and suck cok at the same time?

munch munch munch munch munch'er

[brucereiter]

I've never pushed hands with Joe Schaffer or Bill Leonard, but I did push hands with Bruce once (man that's been almost 8 years ago now). Bruce was good: very, very good. He humbled me cause I thought I was good then too but I was outclassed. But at least the Bruce that I knew 8 years ago was not better than Master Garry or his son Master Mike in my opinion (at least at that time). I can't comment on his skill today, but I'd wager he has only gotten better.

i always thought garry mullins was a excellent martial artist. nothing but good words about him and his sons. garry improved my kicks 10 fold and kevin the brother helped me with hsing i.

i have been practicing. i hope i have made progress in the last 8 years. that was a long time ago.:-):D thanks for the nice words.

[brucereiter]

most people will in america will never be in a fight. this is a good thing, it means they are civilized and are around other civilized people.

some people will be at the wrong place at the wrong time and may have a choice to fight or flight. hopefully they can make the choice of flight.

others will be attacked unsolicited and will have no choice but to fight or be injured or killed or robbed etc.

frank made a good point about not looking like a target. sometimes you may have to be in less desirable places. dont **** with people and normally they wont **** with you.

most people who practice any martial art and or carry a weapon have a false sense of security in their self defense skills.

put most martial artists against a bunch of roided out hammer skins. their martial art will not work. they will just get beat down and boots to the head.
a good amount of martial arts/self defense skill is in the willingness to hurt another person not necessarily the skill to hurt another person.

ramble...

[hskwarrior]

frank made a good point about not looking like a target. sometimes you may have to be in less desirable places. dont **** with people and normally they wont **** with you.

most people who practice any martial art and or carry a weapon have a false sense of security in their self defense skills.


what you said, most people will never grasp until their in it. i see you get it, me, this is a reality of where i live and since i could walk, its always eat or be eaten. imagine it like a watering hole, all animals are there to drink, not fight or kill or be eaten. but they still have that don't mess with me vibe going on. like, hey, im just here for some water and i'm out. peace. :D

[Judge Pen]

most people will in america will never be in a fight. this is a good thing, it means they are civilized and are around other civilized people.

some people will be at the wrong place at the wrong time and may have a choice to fight or flight. hopefully they can make the choice of flight.

others will be attacked unsolicited and will have no choice but to fight or be injured or killed or robbed etc.

frank made a good point about not looking like a target. sometimes you may have to be in less desirable places. dont **** with people and normally they wont **** with you.

most people who practice any martial art and or carry a weapon have a false sense of security in their self defense skills.

put most martial artists against a bunch of roided out hammer skins. their martial art will not work. they will just get beat down and boots to the head.
a good amount of martial arts/self defense skill is in the willingness to hurt another person not necessarily the skill to hurt another person.

ramble...

good observations. You're right about people's false sence of security (sort of the same concept that most drownings occur by people that think they are good swimmers). I completely agree with the willingness to hurt versus the skill to hurt.

[Syn7]

I've never pushed hands with Joe Schaffer or Bill Leonard, but I did push hands with Bruce once (man that's been almost 8 years ago now). Bruce was good: very, very good. He humbled me cause I thought I was good then too but I was outclassed. But at least the Bruce that I knew 8 years ago was not better than Master Garry or his son Master Mike in my opinion (at least at that time). I can't comment on his skill today, but I'd wager he has only gotten better.

I haven't seen any of Bruces push hands. But his form seems relatively solid. I don't doubt he knows what he's doing.

He's one the only SD guys who actually makes sense to me. And he has sought much on his own, which makes all the difference. Especially when your base is SD. But I'm not internal expert, by any means. I'm more of a drive my knee through your chest then skull **** you kind of guy :)

Meh, we all have our own way.

[Lucas]

I haven't seen any of Bruces push hands. But his form seems relatively solid. I don't doubt he knows what he's doing.

He's one the only SD guys who actually makes sense to me. And he has sought much on his own, which makes all the difference. Especially when your base is SD. But I'm not internal expert, by any means. I'm more of a drive my knee through your chest then skull **** you kind of guy :)

Meh, we all have our own way.

I hear its easier to do that if you remove an eye first.

[Syn7]

Yes...he was involved in a "king of the mountain" type of event where he had to go against all the teachers in this school where they taught multiple arts. Joe beat all the guys, the boxing coach beat all the same guys, joe beat the boxing coach.

Bare knuckle fight till unconsciousness or some *** sparring contest with pads and no punching in the face? You cant say **** like that and expect it to mean anything without talking about the rule set. Tito Ortiz was a great fighter, but he still got punched out in front of a club for talking too much by an mma hack criminal. So, context does matter!!!

I'm not saying the guy can't fight. I dunno. But none of that means anything to me as it was presented.

[Syn7]

Dave Perry ( R.I.P.) Was a 5th black under DS and SHS ,who constantly entered open full contact events in the Denver/ Boulder area ...One of his most noteable fights was against former UFC fighter Pat Smith... DP was disqualified for stepping on PS's head after he took him to the ground...Knocked him out!

Going outside the rule set to get a KO is not a bragging point. All that tells me is that he wasn't in control of himself.

Again, he may be a good fighter, but your example means nothing. Who knows what would have happened if Pat Smith decided to cheat too. Context matters. You really need to absorb that.

[Syn7]

most people will in america will never be in a fight. this is a good thing, it means they are civilized and are around other civilized people.

some people will be at the wrong place at the wrong time and may have a choice to fight or flight. hopefully they can make the choice of flight.

others will be attacked unsolicited and will have no choice but to fight or be injured or killed or robbed etc.

frank made a good point about not looking like a target. sometimes you may have to be in less desirable places. dont **** with people and normally they wont **** with you.

most people who practice any martial art and or carry a weapon have a false sense of security in their self defense skills.

put most martial artists against a bunch of roided out hammer skins. their martial art will not work. they will just get beat down and boots to the head.
a good amount of martial arts/self defense skill is in the willingness to hurt another person not necessarily the skill to hurt another person.

ramble...


It's also about intent. If you don't have it in you to literally tear someones throat out and stomp on the remains, you prolly shouldn't mess with someone who does. Most people realize their mistake too late. Sometimes it takes a real beating to realize you aren't as good as you think you are. You may have amazing skill, but if you don't have it in you to serve up that kind of brutality, you should stick to the kwoon and keep your mouth shut everywhere else.

[Syn7]

I hear its easier to do that if you remove an eye first.

That's what the dragon techniques are for, brutha!

[Judge Pen]

It's also about intent. If you don't have it in you to literally tear someones throat out and stomp on the remains, you prolly shouldn't mess with someone who does. Most people realize their mistake too late. Sometimes it takes a real beating to realize you aren't as good as you think you are. You may have amazing skill, but if you don't have it in you to serve up that kind of brutality, you should stick to the kwoon and keep your mouth shut everywhere else.

I agree with this statement 100%. When I was younger and ****ier I used to think I was tough, but now that I have a family and things really worth fighting for I don't doubt that I can call on that reserve to protect what is important. Not for pride or ego, but because I'm not going to let anyone hurt my family as long as I draw breath.

[kwaichang]

I worked Joes corner I helped him with his stategy for the fight the guy was an X pro Boxer Joe beat him it was full contact as all the matches were , take downs etc allowed. I have DVDs of him doing Forms and rolling 70# rolled steel up and down his shins , We have sparred often < i have also sparred Master Mullins and he is good also. I will think about posting Master Joe doing 5 animal fist I have a good copy of that. and the answer is not NO. He is Good . . KC

[hskwarrior]

I will think about posting Master Joe doing 5 animal fist I have a good copy of that. and the answer is not NO. He is Good . . KC

yeah post that up. i want to see it.

[kwaichang]

I will try to up load it , but if you are going to be upset or offended I wont! I think you will be impressed by it.
Also there is a saying Fight a Boxer and Box a Fighter. Most street fighters are cunning not always good. In a one on one situation with out bottles knoves or pipes i would say a street fighter who is also a BB will win more often than not. KC

[hskwarrior]

Hsk
I will try to up load it , but if you are going to be upset or offended I wont! I think you will be impressed by it.
Also there is a saying Fight a Boxer and Box a Fighter. Most street fighters are cunning not always good. In a one on one situation with out bottles knoves or pipes i would say a street fighter who is also a BB will win more often than not. KC

i can't be anymore upset than i already am about that situation. i just wanna see how he does our form.

a martial artist without actual real life fighting experience is not gonna make a good fighter right off the bat. maybe some day. but martial arts will never make you a fighter. you have to be one ahead of time.

[Syn7]

I worked Joes corner I helped him with his stategy for the fight the guy was an X pro Boxer Joe beat him it was full contact as all the matches were , take downs etc allowed. I have DVDs of him doing Forms and rolling 70# rolled steel up and down his shins , We have sparred often < i have also sparred Master Mullins and he is good also. I will think about posting Master Joe doing 5 animal fist I have a good copy of that. and the answer is not NO. He is Good . . KC

just ask him if you can, then do it.

[brucereiter]

But I'm not internal expert, by any means. I'm more of a drive my knee through your chest then skull **** you kind of guy :)

Meh, we all have our own way.

knee through chest smash head sounds internal to me lol.
fast and powerful are 2 attributes my sd teacher time and time again reminded me of. how can you deliver the max mass at the max speed to the correct target. that has been a driving idea in my tai chi chuan practice. over the years it has become more refined. my "internal" in a sense started "external" and through practice/experimentation might be more internal now. similarly when i started bjj i used a lot of strength but as time goes on i rely more on position and sensitivity and leverage.

there are a bunch of push hands practice videos on my youtube channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJMLvM
they have to be watched in context to see what is going in. they are not fights of competitions just study of position and study of transferring the max mass and the best angle and also practicing being empty etc. if interested see link below.

[brucereiter]

imagine it like a watering hole, all animals are there to drink, not fight or kill or be eaten. but they still have that don't mess with me vibe going on. like, hey, im just here for some water and i'm out. peace. :D

that is a very good analogy.

[tattooedmonk]

Going outside the rule set to get a KO is not a bragging point. All that tells me is that he wasn't in control of himself.

Again, he may be a good fighter, but your example means nothing. Who knows what would have happened if Pat Smith decided to cheat too. Context matters. You really need to absorb that.
That's not what I said. It was after the fact. This was no holds barred before"MMA". He was already out cold , DP just came over to finish the job. The ref didn't see that PS was already out, which would have ended the match anyway.

[tattooedmonk]

yeah post that up. i want to see it.
The best thing about this story... Joe used "Leopard climbs the tree" from the five animal form! :eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

i can't be anymore upset than i already am about that situation. i just wanna see how he does our form.

a martial artist without actual real life fighting experience is not gonna make a good fighter right off the bat. maybe some day. but martial arts will never make you a fighter. you have to be one ahead of time.

That funny coming from the "man" that can't fight his way out of a box of twinkles!

[tattooedmonk]

It's also about intent. If you don't have it in you to literally tear someones throat out and stomp on the remains, you prolly shouldn't mess with someone who does. Most people realize their mistake too late. Sometimes it takes a real beating to realize you aren't as good as you think you are. You may have amazing skill, but if you don't have it in you to serve up that kind of brutality, you should stick to the kwoon and keep your mouth shut everywhere else.
Wow, then I guess you should take your own advice.

[tattooedmonk]

do you type and suck cok at the same time?

munch munch munch munch munch'er

Wow , this is a nice answer!

[tattooedmonk]

I haven't seen any of Bruces push hands. But his form seems relatively solid. I don't doubt he knows what he's doing.

He's one the only SD guys who actually makes sense to me. And he has sought much on his own, which makes all the difference. Especially when your base is SD. But I'm not internal expert, by any means. I'm more of a drive my knee through your chest then skull **** you kind of guy :)

Meh, we all have our own way.

Maybe because e is the only one you have bother to really listen. Most of the 18 or so SD people here are very much like Bruce.... I guess that is part of the reason we have all been here for so long.

[Snipsky]

That funny coming from the "man" that can't fight his way out of a box of twinkles!

Tattooedmonk, you are Mr Twinky. i highly doubt you could handle a strike from hsk, much less 15 or 20 of them. you are fully of hot air and even i too have been waiting for your non existent evidence of the 5 animal form. in that respect, you and Sin The are very similar in that you both tell huge lies to people.

to be honest, i haven't either seen anyone good fighters coming from shaolin do. everyone of you talk too much about being blah blah blah but your skills need a ton of work. my opinion, you embarrass Shaolin Do. you stinky twinky

[hskwarrior]

my opinion, you embarrass Shaolin Do. you stinky twinky

Mr. Stinky Twinky ROTFFLMFAO @ tattooedmonk aka Mr Stinky Twinky!!!!!

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/112/4608ba2fa56645549837916a11d1ec5b/l.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/150634_10151247723777732_807548734_n.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

Tattooedmonk, you are Mr Twinky. i highly doubt you could handle a strike from hsk, much less 15 or 20 of them. you are fully of hot air and even i too have been waiting for your non existent evidence of the 5 animal form. in that respect, you and Sin The are very similar in that you both tell huge lies to people.

to be honest, i haven't either seen anyone good fighters coming from shaolin do. everyone of you talk too much about being blah blah blah but your skills need a ton of work. my opinion, you embarrass Shaolin Do. you stinky twinkydont get out of the house or closet much do you!?

[Syn7]

dont get out of the house or closet much do you!?

Still waiting for you to come through. So far all you've shown us is that you're angry and unreliable. Way to keep your word though.

Throw down, son.

[brucereiter]

Most of the 18 or so SD people here are very much like Bruce.....

i like ya'all too:D

i am sure i have offended a few sd people with some of my comments. i dont say them to offend just in search of the truth. if you are tactful i think you can ask any reasonable person anything without ****ing them off. i do wish people showed more tact sometimes but on the other hand when i am bullsh86ting with my friends we say all kinds of crazy **** to each other they are just fun insults. nothing personal...

word of the day. not directed at any individual. directed at the whole group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[Syn7]

What's tact??? :p

[brucereiter]

here is some yang 64 practice from today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQNNJabGDbU&feature=youtu.be

[Empty_Cup]

i like ya'all too:D

i am sure i have offended a few sd people with some of my comments. i dont say them to offend just in search of the truth. if you are tactful i think you can ask any reasonable person anything without ****ing them off. i do wish people showed more tact sometimes but on the other hand when i am bullsh86ting with my friends we say all kinds of crazy **** to each other they are just fun insults. nothing personal...

word of the day. not directed at any individual. directed at the whole group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Consider me one of the UNoffended ones...I appreciate your posts bruce.

IMO most of the SD folks on here (or maybe it's just me) are more interested in discussing the SD techniques, training, application than contributing to the endless debate that can only really be settled by GMS. It's become more trouble than it's worth to sift through this thread just to have a discussion. Most of the constructive posts are instantly drowned out in trash. So much so that TTM has taken it upon himself to setup a private forum.

[hskwarrior]

empty cup......

do you or do you not suk cok while you use the computer? don't be offended, you felt the need to say something to me, so i'm just curious to your extra curricular activities.

take your discussion over to Mr Stinky Twinky's new SD forum. Im sure you guys will have awesome discussions about SD.

[Empty_Cup]

empty cup......

do you or do you not suk cok while you use the computer? don't be offended, you felt the need to say something to me, so i'm just curious to your extra curricular activities.

take your discussion over to Mr Stinky Twinky's new SD forum. Im sure you guys will have awesome discussions about SD.

Case in point...

[Syn7]

Consider me one of the UNoffended ones...I appreciate your posts bruce.

IMO most of the SD folks on here (or maybe it's just me) are more interested in discussing the SD techniques, training, application than contributing to the endless debate that can only really be settled by GMS. It's become more trouble than it's worth to sift through this thread just to have a discussion. Most of the constructive posts are instantly drowned out in trash. So much so that TTM has taken it upon himself to setup a private forum.

And you should totally discuss it in TTM's forum. This thread is labelled Is SD for real? Not "let's discuss the finer points of what we learned at SD". The fact that they keep getting merged should speak volumes to you. Man up, make your own space.

And if you don't mind, maybe some of you could hold people like TTM to their ****. Step up or back off. KFM is an aggressive place sometimes. Get over it. Back up your claims and do what you say you will do.

Besides, I'll take a scrap over a forum circle jerk anytime. When I train, we don't all agree and tell eachother how awesome we are, how legit we are. We challenge eachothers assumptions and pressure test EVERYTHING! This type of conflict is absolutely necessary for martial growth. If you wanna do forms for health, that's cool, just don't act like it will work for you if you haven't actually tried it.

And Kyokushin style sparring is fun and all, but it's a rule set designed for competition, not real combat.

[hskwarrior]

Case in point...

case in point is tattooed on your forehead mr foreskin. i wasn't talking to you and you thought you were entitled to butt in to an A & B conversation. when you get checked for it you wine like a old b1tch. typical CIRCUS CLOWN stuff.

use your mouth more constructively in the future. mr thenthitive.


And you should totally discuss it in TTM's forum. This thread is labelled Is SD for real? Not "let's discuss the finer points of what we learned at SD". The fact that they keep getting merged should speak volumes to you. Man up, make your own space.

exactly. is it real? and if it is, what is it really because its not Shaolin.

[Syn7]

mr thenthitive.


Almost spit out my soup. Mithter Thenthithive!!! Good stuff. Accentuated by the fact that Mike Tyson is on TV right now. He'the a funthional member of thothiety now!

As for the rest, I always butt in on A B convos. Wanna fight?

"My style is the best, and so I challenge you!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSu3lelXNGQ


Love the "subliminal" product shots....!!!

[hskwarrior]

Almost spit out my soup. Mithter Thenthithive!!! Good stuff. Accentuated by the fact that Mike Tyson is on TV right now. He'the a funthional member of thothiety now!

oh you tho thilly......:p

[brucereiter]

Consider me one of the UNoffended ones...I appreciate your posts bruce.

IMO most of the SD folks on here (or maybe it's just me) are more interested in discussing the SD techniques, training, application than contributing to the endless debate that can only really be settled by GMS. It's become more trouble than it's worth to sift through this thread just to have a discussion. Most of the constructive posts are instantly drowned out in trash. So much so that TTM has taken it upon himself to setup a private forum.

thanks.....................:)

[brucereiter]

Almost spit out my soup. Mithter Thenthithive!!! Good stuff. Accentuated by the fact that Mike Tyson is on TV right now. He'the a funthional member of thothiety now!

As for the rest, I always butt in on A B convos. Wanna fight?

"My style is the best, and so I challenge you!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSu3lelXNGQ


Love the "subliminal" product shots....!!!

that video is awesome!

[brucereiter]

And you should totally discuss it in TTM's forum. This thread is labelled Is SD for real? Not "let's discuss the finer points of what we learned at SD". The fact that they keep getting merged should speak volumes to you. Man up, make your own space.

syn,

i think we all have the privilege of posting what ever martial arts related topics we want to just as you have the privilege to tell me not to.

"is shaolin do for real" i think that question is flawed and that being the original question on this thread does not limit the parts of sd one may want to talk about. its obvious to any objective person what sin the has done. i am not going to give up my tai chi churn practice just because sin kwang the can not get his story straight and a bunch of people dislike him.

some people who have practiced what ever sd material for a time may wish to discuss the art here. in the past when ever i or any person it seems would start a thread to talk about what ever aspect of the style the thread would inevitably get overrun with sin the's misinformation bull**** instead of the topic trying to be discussed. in my experience here if i want to discuss sd it is best to do it on this thread. gene has actually in the past asked that the sd threads stay here...

keep it all in one place the good the bad and the ugly.



And if you don't mind, maybe some of you could hold people like TTM to their ****. Step up or back off. KFM is an aggressive place sometimes. Get over it. Back up your claims and do what you say you will do.
yes it is a bit to aggressive sometimes.
i forgot exactly what it was he said he would do. what exactly do you want from him?

several people on all sides of the fence have thrown around insults some are actually funny and no different that i would do with my friends busting each others balls but i do not think there is any reason for any of us to act like *******s. its a fine line.



Besides, I'll take a scrap over a forum circle jerk anytime. When I train, we don't all agree and tell eachother how awesome we are, how legit we are. We challenge eachothers assumptions and pressure test EVERYTHING! This type of conflict is absolutely necessary for martial growth. If you wanna do forms for health, that's cool, just don't act like it will work for you if you haven't actually tried it.

>>>>We challenge eachothers assumptions and pressure test EVERYTHING!<<<<
that is some of the best martial arts advice ever.

opposing views are important in finding your own way. it is important to expose your ideas to others outside of what you do to test what you do and find the good and bad.

if i may ask what is your goal in posting on these topics? what do you hope to accomplish with your posts regarding sd?

[hskwarrior]

i think we all have the privilege of posting what ever martial arts related topics we want to just as you have the privilege to tell me not to.

knowledge is power. closed mouths don't get fed

[brucereiter]

knowledge is power. closed mouths don't get fed

yep. if ya dont ask ya wont know.

[Syn7]

syn,

i think we all have the privilege of posting what ever martial arts related topics we want to just as you have the privilege to tell me not to.

"is shaolin do for real" i think that question is flawed and that being the original question on this thread does not limit the parts of sd one may want to talk about. its obvious to any objective person what sin the has done. i am not going to give up my tai chi churn practice just because sin kwang the can not get his story straight and a bunch of people dislike him.

some people who have practiced what ever sd material for a time may wish to discuss the art here. in the past when ever i or any person it seems would start a thread to talk about what ever aspect of the style the thread would inevitably get overrun with sin the's misinformation bull**** instead of the topic trying to be discussed. in my experience here if i want to discuss sd it is best to do it on this thread. gene has actually in the past asked that the sd threads stay here...

keep it all in one place the good the bad and the ugly.


yes it is a bit to aggressive sometimes.
i forgot exactly what it was he said he would do. what exactly do you want from him?

several people on all sides of the fence have thrown around insults some are actually funny and no different that i would do with my friends busting each others balls but i do not think there is any reason for any of us to act like *******s. its a fine line.



>>>>We challenge eachothers assumptions and pressure test EVERYTHING!<<<<
that is some of the best martial arts advice ever.

opposing views are important in finding your own way. it is important to expose your ideas to others outside of what you do to test what you do and find the good and bad.

if i may ask what is your goal in posting on these topics? what do you hope to accomplish with your posts regarding sd?


Oh, yall can say whatever you want. I just was referring to the people who complained about how their thread is being interrupted as if it's an sd friendship thread. Do what ya gotta, by all means. I'm just sayin, if you wanna have convos between yourselves with no interruptions....... to the left. Otherwise, rock on wit ya bad selves.

TTM talked a ton of trash about how he was gonna prove that not only is the SD five animals not from Lau Buns lineage, but also that he was going to show other unrelated styles(to SD or HSCLF) doing this form. He talked so so so much **** and even got cocky enough to set his own deadline, which was Dec 25th. I wanna see these docs that show all this. After all the **** he talked, I'm expecting a thesis. That's what it's gonna take to back his words.

At first I was curious about SD and all the weird drama. Then I made some conclusions. Some agreed, a few got sand in their vijayjays and challenged me on it, I responded, it went from there. HSK came in aggressively and as I agreed with a lot he was saying, people got aggressive w/ me. I push back.

My purpose, genuine curiosity in the 5 animal jackmove and the whole fraud in general w/ sd. Entertainment. Breaks from writing code. And straight up, I enjoy picking arguments apart. I consider it a mental exercise. I do lots of stuff like that. I study baseball stats but don't give a **** about baseball. It's just how I do. I also spend a lot of time on behaviour analysis, fascinating stuff. So sometimes I'm being a genuine dick, others I'm purposely choosing my words for a specific reaction simply because I enjoy studying manipulation. Not to say I always get the reaction I'm looking for. But in this thread I'm looking at high 80's. Again, it's all just an exercise. Drilling etc... I pick my moments and run with it. Honestly, I really don't care much about any of this outside of the initial curiosities w/ the lying and the 5 animal thing.


And for the record, I haven't made any significant definitive claims about myself in relation to how good I am, what I can or can't do etc. I'm not here to measure dicks. I'm satisfied with mine.

[brucereiter]

Oh, yall can say whatever you want. I just was referring to the people who complained about how their thread is being interrupted as if it's an sd friendship thread. Do what ya gotta, by all means. I'm just sayin, if you wanna have convos between yourselves with no interruptions....... to the left. Otherwise, rock on wit ya bad selves.

TTM talked a ton of trash about how he was gonna prove that not only is the SD five animals not from Lau Buns lineage, but also that he was going to show other unrelated styles(to SD or HSCLF) doing this form. He talked so so so much **** and even got cocky enough to set his own deadline, which was Dec 25th. I wanna see these docs that show all this. After all the **** he talked, I'm expecting a thesis. That's what it's gonna take to back his words.

At first I was curious about SD and all the weird drama. Then I made some conclusions. Some agreed, a few got sand in their vijayjays and challenged me on it, I responded, it went from there. HSK came in aggressively and as I agreed with a lot he was saying, people got aggressive w/ me. I push back.

My purpose, genuine curiosity in the 5 animal jackmove and the whole fraud in general w/ sd. Entertainment. Breaks from writing code. And straight up, I enjoy picking arguments apart. I consider it a mental exercise. I do lots of stuff like that. I study baseball stats but don't give a **** about baseball. It's just how I do. I also spend a lot of time on behaviour analysis, fascinating stuff. So sometimes I'm being a genuine dick, others I'm purposely choosing my words for a specific reaction simply because I enjoy studying manipulation. Not to say I always get the reaction I'm looking for. But in this thread I'm looking at high 80's. Again, it's all just an exercise. Drilling etc... I pick my moments and run with it. Honestly, I really don't care much about any of this outside of the initial curiosities w/ the lying and the 5 animal thing.


And for the record, I haven't made any significant definitive claims about myself in relation to how good I am, what I can or can't do etc. I'm not here to measure dicks. I'm satisfied with mine.

fair enough. thanks for the response. with the exceptions of you baiting people who are being emotional i think your interactions here are good and objective.

i go in phases with this thread. gotta not look at it for a while every now and then.
i missed the ttm 5 animal form claims so i am not sure what was said but out of curiosity i would like to see any evidence of sin the's martial arts but i mostly only have a interest in the internal stuff since this is what i have personally have invested in.
i think they way you and especially frank have "typed" to ttm it is unlikely that he will do anything he may have said he would in regards to the 5 animal form history due to all of the negative reactions going both ways.

i think this thread should have opposing views. much of what sin the has said and done regarding these martial arts it total bullS$%T and some people would like to know about it.

my opinion of sin the's students/people who have trained some aspect of the system is they are
a) blind to the factual history and methods of the systems sd claims to teach
b) ignorant about the factual history and methods of the systems sd claims to teach
c) do not care about the factual history and methods of the systems sd claims to teach
d) are well informed about the factual history and methods of the systems sd claims to teach

all 4 of those options are ok.


carry on.

[hskwarrior]

"The Emperor was exceedingly pleased with the proposal, and at once issued an Imperial Edict, which was speedily distributed throughout the whole Empire. There was no place under Heaven which the proclamation did not reach. Now, in a range of mountains called Kiu-Lien, in the district of Toan Leng in Hok-Kien, there was a monastery, named Siau Lim Si, containing 128 priests."

[hskwarrior]

i think they way you and especially frank have "typed" to ttm it is unlikely that he will do anything he may have said he would in regards to the 5 animal form history due to all of the negative reactions going both ways.

hey bro, TTM aka TRIPLE C causes undo stress when he's around. we try to have a decent conversation then that fool comes in with his childish BS. see, as of now, no **** talking is happening. but when he arrives, he's get smacked. but as of late, i've decided to ignore his BS. if you look, i'm not mad at kwai chang cause he's trying to stay cool. i want him to post that video he said he has.

[Syn7]

This thread needs some love.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDT8OOkS_dc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKs4Gv56z3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIp47yWUQKs


not untill you've listen to Rakim on a rocky mountain top
have you heard hip hop
extract the urban element which created it
and let a open wide country side illustrate it
riding in a freight train
in the freezing rain
listening to Coltrane
my reality went insane
and i think i saw Jesus
he was playing hopscotch with Betty Carter
who was cursing him out
in a scat-like gibberish for not saying 'butterfingers'
and my fingers run through grains of sand
like seeds of time
the pains of man
the frames of mind
which built these frames
which is the structure of my urban superstructure
the trains and planes can corrupt and obstruct your planes of thought
so you that forget how to walk through the woods
which ain't good cuz you ain't never walked through the trees
listenin' to nobody beats the biz and you ain't never heard hip hop

[hskwarrior]

SYN, U ON FACEBOOK? CHECK IT OUT
https://www.facebook.com/UndergroundHipHopExists

[Syn7]

Ha, Cunninlynguists... 616 Rewind was tight. CT kills it.

[tattooedmonk]

"
TTM talked a ton of trash about how he was gonna prove that not only is the SD five animals not from Lau Buns lineage, but also that he was going to show other unrelated styles(to SD or HSCLF) doing this form. He talked so so so much **** and even got ****y enough to set his own deadline, which was Dec 25th. I wanna see these docs that show all this. After all the **** he talked, I'm expecting a thesis. That's what it's gonna take to back his words."

this is not what was said or discussed, part of the reason why I don't care about this forum or discussing anything further. It's totally pointless. And seeing as you already have it all stuck in your heads that's its your way and no other way , then I don't have much more to say.

[hskwarrior]

this is not what was said or discussed, part of the reason why i don't care about this forum or discussing anything further. It's totally pointless. And seeing as you already have it all stuck in your heads that's its your way and no other way , then i don't have much more to say.

forget the fiscal cliff, we averted the ttm ()triple c) bluff. What a chicken **** cop-out.

[tattooedmonk]

because all hear is clucking.

[tattooedmonk]

where is there any proof of what any of you are saying ?

get a clue.

HSK/ Frank... hes the real dealz.....l will cosign and ride his nuts til the very end..... jus cuz I fink SD is not for realz and is a fugaizie..... blah blah blah

and we all used to be B boys.... says a bunch of clueless wonders....... B Boys?? sounds kinda gay.


BTW have a nice day.:)

[hskwarrior]

Just wondering
where is there any proof of what any of you are saying ?

get a clue.

HSK/ Frank... hes the real dealz.....l will cosign and ride his nuts til the very end..... jus cuz I fink SD is not for realz and is a fugaizie..... blah blah blah

and we all used to be B boys.... says a bunch of clueless wonders....... B Boys?? sounds kinda gay.


BTW have a nice day.

i knew your arrogance would do you dirty. LOL. wow. um, so your stance is based upon your belief that we don't have evidence of it belonging to us only, so your weak attempt to cling to it becomes crystal clear through your words. i can show you 6 generations of people from my lineage doing that form. YOU, all YOU have is the BOOK VERSION of the form. You can't even produce a legitimate alternative source to this form,evident by your false xmas deadline you failed to meet. the only thing you've done even in the eyes of your own was stuck a thumb in your own eye. you opened mouth and inserted foot like a perfectly lubricated mechanical devise.

BTW, have a super sparkly day.

[Syn7]

where is there any proof of what any of you are saying ?

get a clue.

HSK/ Frank... hes the real dealz.....l will cosign and ride his nuts til the very end..... jus cuz I fink SD is not for realz and is a fugaizie..... blah blah blah

and we all used to be B boys.... says a bunch of clueless wonders....... B Boys?? sounds kinda gay.


BTW have a nice day.:)

Don't get upset because somebody paid a lil attention to your bull**** and called you out on it. You made claims and now you are making the classic punk move, "That's not what I said." ***** please. :rolleyes: It's all here for anyone to see if they feel like looking back.

You put yourself on blast. You did that, nobody else. YOU!

Rolling around on your mothers carpet a bboy does not make.


BBoys are only gay to you because you hate it when your woman wants to stay and watch. Next time this happens, and you go home and get a lil something above her usual, you can just come back and say thank you and leave it at that.

Kisses.

[hskwarrior]

rotflmmfao

[tattooedmonk]

Don't get upset because somebody paid a lil attention to your bull**** and called you out on it. You made claims and now you are making the classic punk move, "That's not what I said." ***** please. :rolleyes: It's all here for anyone to see if they feel like looking back.

You put yourself on blast. You did that, nobody else. YOU!

Rolling around on your mothers carpet a bboy does not make.


BBoys are only gay to you because you hate it when your woman wants to stay and watch. Next time this happens, and you go home and get a lil something above her usual, you can just come back and say thank you and leave it at that.

Kisses.called me out? hahah whatever dude , you are a moron. I called all of you on your bull****. You cant prove anything one way or another douchebag. if i was mad i wouldnt even bother...you are entertaining at most . you are just a troll nutsackrider and have no proff of anything you say... so lets just leave it at that . Dinggle berry

[tattooedmonk]

i knew your arrogance would do you dirty. LOL. wow. um, so your stance is based upon your belief that we don't have evidence of it belonging to us only, so your weak attempt to cling to it becomes crystal clear through your words. i can show you 6 generations of people from my lineage doing that form. YOU, all YOU have is the BOOK VERSION of the form. You can't even produce a legitimate alternative source to this form,evident by your false xmas deadline you failed to meet. the only thing you've done even in the eyes of your own was stuck a thumb in your own eye. you opened mouth and inserted foot like a perfectly lubricated mechanical devise.

BTW, have a super sparkly day.blah blah blah....prove it big mouth!! How do you know what I know? Huh?? tell me smart ass! you are the liar and a fat mouth .show me where ?? its not on the internet or book stores...and since when do you know more than DFW?? idiot

BTW books from China can take awhile ...moron. guess you missed that in my post . found the book. I bet lau bun learned it from the same book.hahahah

[hskwarrior]

blah blah blah....prove it big mouth!! How do you know what I know? Huh?? tell me smart ass! you are the liar and a fat mouth .show me where ?? its not on the internet or book stores...and since when do you know more than DFW?? idiot

BTW books from China can take awhile ...moron. guess you missed that in my post . found the book. I bet lau bun learned it from the same book.hahahah

i've known more than DFW for a long time now. yet we are from the same family, and we DO communicate with each other. SUCKA. hahahahahahahaha

http://i.mnpls.com/466/46602.gif

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BPM9N76uDDA/TPJdLhdwBlI/AAAAAAAAAB4/onEhnr6d5TQ/s400/1.jpg

http://scm-l3.technorati.com/12/12/07/73721/boring.jpg?t=20121207192652

[tattooedmonk]

really?? huh! well then why is it he is doing so well and your are just here being an idiot???for months I have asked you to contribute, and you still havent and never do. oh well.

[hskwarrior]

You're such a complete waste of time TRIPLE C. Post the book or video or just shut the fuk up already. or just stay in your exclusive little new forum cult where you are their leader. to us, you're no different than Sin The. full of Sh1t.

[Syn7]

called me out? hahah whatever dude , you are a moron. I called all of you on your bull****. You cant prove anything one way or another douchebag. if i was mad i wouldnt even bother...you are entertaining at most . you are just a troll nutsackrider and have no proff of anything you say... so lets just leave it at that . Dinggle berry

You're so simple. Don't worry about it.

You make claims, set this release date. All on your own initiative. Then you pass the date, and yes people CALLED you on it (Not sure what you think that means, like it never happened???) and your response is to demand from others what you said you would provide and then resort to a bunch of aggressive lil dick name calling and ****. WTF is wrong with you? Get back on the meds, son.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't think you have clowned yourself is a biased moron. That goes for all of you that think this guy is NOT a retard. Something to shake your head at. By not speaking out against people like this that make SD look so bad, and you all assume some of the guilt and justify the criticism. When you show any respect to a complete moron, you dirty your selves.

[hskwarrior]

syn, he's like some doofus little kid feeling safe and warm behind his computer not thinking that he opened the door to some drop by Gong Sau's.

the dude is a straight up square who uses this forum as his venue to do and say all of the things his wife, lady, or mother would never let him. a Peon with a CAPITAL P.

[Syn7]

I know, but he's a real person who people on here know of or have met. The fact that they show any kind of respect to him at all just casts a shadow over themselves. It's ****ed up, I don't get it. You would think people from SD would be keeping as much distance as possible from this **** after the lies came to light. I really don't understand. I have no issue speaking out against anything I think is ****ed up, no matter how involved I am. Just like it's easy for me to admit that I can be a dick. I'm good wittit.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh my , you two have got to take the cake. Great job.... No one gives a **** what you say here. Give your necks a rest. I do this just to watch you two worms squirm! Hahah

[hskwarrior]

Oh my , you two have got to take the cake. Great job.... No one gives a **** what you say here. Give your necks a rest. I do this just to watch you two worms squirm! Hahah

then you are sitting back watching NOTHING. you have just proven you bump your gums for no specific reason other than to PRETEND like you are an authority of something while you practice made up and stolen material. you suck, your skills suck, and i hear you also like to suck on that wang. people like YOU are the reason why real gung fu wasn't taught to outsiders for so long.

I bet you believe you're better than any little chinamen huh? they can never do what you do right?

LMAO!!!!!!!

the funniest part is YOU are sooooooooo scared to post a video of yourself for a number of reasons which include "showing your face" and "showing what little skill you have or don't have".

[Snipsky]

i wanted to give you a chance to be an honorable person. You did set your own date to expose the truth on the 5 Animal Form and failed to produce. if you were serious you could have at least posted the name of the book you allegedly discovered in addition to the name of the author who wrote it. yet, you couldn't even produce that simple piece of information.

Stinky Twinky suits you just fine. its pretty sad that Sin The was such an underhanded individual who used stolen gung fu to feed himself and family yet SD people on this forum cry "WU DE.......oh man none of you have have Wu De based on your postings on the forum". Wu De? are you quacking serious?

is Wu De the act of stealing, concealing, and never revealing the truth? is wu de the act of learning something from a book only to change its origin and claim it as your own because a move was changed here and there? is Wu De sexual harrassment? is Wu De lying to students in order to make money? Lies, thievery, and American bigotry seems to seep from the students of SD and its founder. if that is the meaning of Wu De then i never never never want to be involved with SD or anyone from it.

some like frank and syn are keeping it real. its you SD people who claim you have skills but every video posted from all ranks and files are very sub par compared to the authentic traditional schools. is that Wu De?

Is it Wu De the continuance and proliferation of lies and deceit?

i personally feel all of SD can sit and spin on their own brand of Wu De, which they most likely stole from kung fu so they can lie to other non chinese who don't know any better. fick your wu de.

[hskwarrior]

Mr. Stinky Twinky
i wanted to give you a chance to be an honorable person. You did set your own date to expose the truth on the 5 Animal Form and failed to produce. if you were serious you could have at least posted the name of the book you allegedly discovered in addition to the name of the author who wrote it. yet, you couldn't even produce that simple piece of information.

Stinky Twinky suits you just fine. its pretty sad that Sin The was such an underhanded individual who used stolen gung fu to feed himself and family yet SD people on this forum cry "WU DE.......oh man none of you have have Wu De based on your postings on the forum". Wu De? are you quacking serious?

is Wu De the act of stealing, concealing, and never revealing the truth? is wu de the act of learning something from a book only to change its origin and claim it as your own because a move was changed here and there? is Wu De sexual harrassment? is Wu De lying to students in order to make money? Lies, thievery, and American bigotry seems to seep from the students of SD and its founder. if that is the meaning of Wu De then i never never never want to be involved with SD or anyone from it.

some like frank and syn are keeping it real. its you SD people who claim you have skills but every video posted from all ranks and files are very sub par compared to the authentic traditional schools. is that Wu De?

Is it Wu De the continuance and proliferation of lies and deceit?

i personally feel all of SD can sit and spin on their own brand of Wu De, which they most likely stole from kung fu so they can lie to other non chinese who don't know any better. fick your wu de.

whoa, tell em how ya really feel. LMMFAO at mr stinky twinky. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOOLOLO

the idiot Tatarded Monk said "fugaizie" you stupid ass nacka you watch too much TV.

question, there's a lot of reference to the TV SHOW KUNG FU, and now using references from the Soprano's (what a tard). is this typical for SD people? to use words and slogans from a TV SHOW as your doctrine? really?

[pazman]

http://i.imgur.com/0ECMP.jpg?1

sup

[tattooedmonk]

i wanted to give you a chance to be an honorable person. You did set your own date to expose the truth on the 5 Animal Form and failed to produce. if you were serious you could have at least posted the name of the book you allegedly discovered in addition to the name of the author who wrote it. yet, you couldn't even produce that simple piece of information.

Stinky Twinky suits you just fine. its pretty sad that Sin The was such an underhanded individual who used stolen gung fu to feed himself and family yet SD people on this forum cry "WU DE.......oh man none of you have have Wu De based on your postings on the forum". Wu De? are you quacking serious?

is Wu De the act of stealing, concealing, and never revealing the truth? is wu de the act of learning something from a book only to change its origin and claim it as your own because a move was changed here and there? is Wu De sexual harrassment? is Wu De lying to students in order to make money? Lies, thievery, and American bigotry seems to seep from the students of SD and its founder. if that is the meaning of Wu De then i never never never want to be involved with SD or anyone from it.

some like frank and syn are keeping it real. its you SD people who claim you have skills but every video posted from all ranks and files are very sub par compared to the authentic traditional schools. is that Wu De?

Is it Wu De the continuance and proliferation of lies and deceit?

i personally feel all of SD can sit and spin on their own brand of Wu De, which they most likely stole from kung fu so they can lie to other non chinese who don't know any better. fick your wu de. got another one on the line! Woohoo!
Hilarious, whatever dude. Once again nothin of any use. Why should I caste pearls before the swine?!?all I doing is help you contribute to the thread. It's great. Save all your bull**** for someone else.

[tattooedmonk]

You're so simple. Don't worry about it.

You make claims, set this release date. All on your own initiative. Then you pass the date, and yes people CALLED you on it (Not sure what you think that means, like it never happened???) and your response is to demand from others what you said you would provide and then resort to a bunch of aggressive lil dick name calling and ****. WTF is wrong with you? Get back on the meds, son.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't think you have clowned yourself is a biased moron. That goes for all of you that think this guy is NOT a retard. Something to shake your head at. By not speaking out against people like this that make SD look so bad, and you all assume some of the guilt and justify the criticism. When you show any respect to a complete moron, you dirty your selves.

This is funny... You all sit here and talk crap and get offended when someone does it to you. Unreal. Your an idiot . Plain and simple. BoY

[tattooedmonk]

http://i.imgur.com/0ECMP.jpg?1

sup

Where do you study! Who's your teachers!?

[hskwarrior]

got another one on the line! Woohoo!
Hilarious, whatever dude. Once again nothin of any use. Why should I caste pearls before the swine?!?all I doing is help you contribute to the thread. It's great. Save all your bull**** for someone else.

fukkin lame ass. hahahahahahaha

i'd bet Paz's teacher didn't learn his gung fu from books.

[pazman]

Where do you study! Who's your teachers!?

John Takeshi.

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/56006303/Camron+You+mad.jpg

[hskwarrior]

i think Triple C's (ttm) SD bro's have turned their backs on him. i don't see anyone coming to his rescue. looks like you got put on the LEVA holmes. hahahaha

[Syn7]

whoa, tell em how ya really feel. LMMFAO at mr stinky twinky. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOOLOLO

the idiot Tatarded Monk said "fugaizie" you stupid ass nacka you watch too much TV.

question, there's a lot of reference to the TV SHOW KUNG FU, and now using references from the Soprano's (what a tard). is this typical for SD people? to use words and slogans from a TV SHOW as your doctrine? really?

Donnie Brasco

And if he actually knew any Italian he would know it's pronounced fugase.

[hskwarrior]

And if he actually knew any Italian he would know it's pronounced fugase.

my friends in italy laugh at americans over the word fugase. its not a word used in the italian language.

[Syn7]

got another one on the line! Woohoo!
Hilarious, whatever dude. Once again nothin of any use. Why should I caste pearls before the swine?!?all I doing is help you contribute to the thread. It's great. Save all your bull**** for someone else.

Oh ok, well then we all say the same to you! We are far too righteous and smart to show you any evidence.

Come on, you have had a TON of evidence thrown at you, you're just too stupid to see it.

Same with who my teacher is, already posted. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

DER De DERRRRRRRRRR! can someone say D-o-o-f-u-s! LMAO.

[wenshu]

Where do you study! Who's your teachers!?

http://i.imgur.com/RmteX.gif

[Syn7]

my friends in italy laugh at americans over the word fugase. its not a word used in the italian language.

I find uneducated *******ization of the Italian language in the US to be quite fascinating.

In fact I find the *******ization of English in the US to be fascinating.

Butchers, all of you!!! :p

[hskwarrior]

i pheelsia

[tattooedmonk]

Come on, you have had a TON of evidence thrown at youwhere?? huh? where ??? just because you say something or believe it to be true,
doesnt make it so.....

[tattooedmonk]

i think Triple C's (ttm) SD bro's have turned their backs on him. i don't see anyone coming to his rescue. looks like you got put on the LEVA holmes. hahahahaI dont have any brothers or friends in SD. Nor do I need anyone's back up to handle you turds....you are just a bunch of cry babies that want attention , so I am giving it to you.:D

[pazman]

http://i.imm.io/Sc5M.jpeg

[tattooedmonk]

if we can get it to 1200 by the end of the day.

[tattooedmonk]

http://imm.io/Sc5Maww didnt work

[hskwarrior]

where?? huh? where ??? just because you say something or believe it to be true,
doesnt make it so.....

you're so lame. frickin tardboy.

[tattooedmonk]

http://i.imm.io/Sc5M.jpegreally , you learn from sin the and monkeys??

[tattooedmonk]

you're so lame. frickin tardboy.you havent proven sh!t fat frank

[tattooedmonk]

you can obviously eat a lot

[hskwarrior]

I dont have any brothers or friends in SD. Nor do I need anyone's back up to handle you turds....you are just a bunch of cry babies that want attention , so I am giving it to you.

must be nice to livein such a lame ass world of smoke and mirrors


you havent proven sh!t fat frank

fat frank.......hmmmm. thats all you have? fat frank? your mom used to call me FAT FRANK but it wasn't in reference to my weight tho. fukkin wanna be.......you're on the LEVA!

but you have proven something however. a few things in fact. 1) you're full of sh1t. 2) you have zero skill. 3) all talk, no bite. 4) you are an outright embarrassment to whom or whatever your teacher was. i bet you're heart would skit a beat when you saw CHEWBACCA because you thought he was your kung fu uncle. then you woke up to realize all of your kung fu was just lies anyway.

[Syn7]

you havent proven sh!t fat frank

Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

You seem to get confused when too much is thrown at you too fast. So let's stop here and wait for your counter. We can go from there. Let's do this, and get it over with. It's dragging on way too long. You would make a ****ty student.

[hskwarrior]

You would make a ****ty student.

which would explain why he's such a bitter betty with panties bunched a bunch.
i hope his school has security cameras. i'd love to see the beating he's gonna get.

[pazman]

From Sin Kwang The's "To Do" List:

Monthly Amazon.com book shopping
Prepare for speech on the subject of Wude
Make a new form to "teach out" next month. Needs a cool name.
Decide if I'm gonna lie to the court, or lie to my students.
Review Temple Taiji form to be taught tomorrow which I haven't practiced in years....wait, nope, screw it, just gonna wing it.

[Syn7]

From Sin Kwang The's "To Do" List:

Monthly Amazon.com book shopping
Prepare for speech on the subject of Wude
Make a new form to "teach out" next month. Needs a cool name.
Decide if I'm gonna lie to the court, or lie to my students.
Review Temple Taiji form to be taught tomorrow which I haven't practiced in years....wait, nope, screw it, just gonna wing it.

He's a GrandMatser. He doesn't need to practice. He pretends to forget the next move in a demo in order to hide his sheer awesomeness. If he showed us teh dealiez, we would all wither away in his ever expanding chi bubble. But worry not, in private he reveals himself to worthy students. Worthy students that go on to create new students with the brilliance and grace of people like TTM. We should all be proud to just post in this thread that has his name said so many times.

[hskwarrior]

TTM (Triple C) acts as if the page number keeps increasing is a good thing for him and Shaolin Do when in reality the whole entire thread has dedicated itself to clowning shaolin do for having such a fake history. the idiot (markie mark) doesn't realize the negative effects his participation in this thread is having on his real life credibility.

[tattooedmonk]

Whatever , there only 3 people on here ever. What a joke. Bad publicity is better than no publicity!:0)

[tattooedmonk]

which would explain why he's such a bitter betty with panties bunched a bunch.
i hope his school has security cameras. i'd love to see the beating he's gonna get.

Well if you are so bad @$$ why dont you come and do it yourself!? Panty waste.

[hskwarrior]

Well if you are so bad @$$ why dont you come and do it yourself!? Panty waste.

im in SF. GOLDEN GATE PARK. B1tch boy. fukkin bullsh1t ass fake wannabe. you ain't sh1t you fukkin mouth boxer.

[XinKuzi]

This thread just makes everyone involved look bad.

Oh ****, what am I doing here?

[MasterKiller]

Some of you guys need one of these.

http://i44.tinypic.com/28rjsec.jpg

[hskwarrior]

original post by: masterkiller
some of you guys need one of these. I use one and its awesome, i love it.

http://i44.tinypic.com/28rjsec.jpg

:d:d:d.....................

[MasterKiller]

Niggas do what we gots to.

[hskwarrior]

Niggas do what we gots to.

niggas? what niggas? maybe you meant Jiggas

[MasterKiller]

niggas? what niggas? maybe you meant Jiggas

You just mad because I'm blacker than you.

[hskwarrior]

You just mad because I'm blacker than you.

yeah you're blacker but with the white man ass LOLOLOL

[MasterKiller]

yeah you're blacker but with the white man ass LOLOLOL

You just mad you got an Asian man's wee-wee.

[hskwarrior]

ok yeah yeah. HAD TO GO THERE HUH? i'm getting an enlargement operation very SOON

[Syn7]

Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

You seem to get confused when too much is thrown at you too fast. So let's stop here and wait for your counter. We can go from there. Let's do this, and get it over with. It's dragging on way too long. You would make a ****ty student.


Whatever , there only 3 people on here ever. What a joke. Bad publicity is better than no publicity!:0)


You get the gas face.

"Kick em in the grill Pete!"




So... Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

Your turn. This is how civilized intelligent people debate. Here's your chance. If you write it off with weak insults and more backpeddling, then we know where you stand and how capable you are of defending your position. Throw down already.







As for those who are a part of TTM's lil exclusive site, has he posted any of this there? A simple yes or a no would be nice.... for starters, anyways.


MK, you have issues. You either need some in house ***** or maybe an upgrade if you are that bored.

Frank, we all know you aren't actually gonna travel to beat up some toy. Let's take the high road in that respect. If he comes to you, by all means, show what a fat man's sow choi can do.

[hskwarrior]

i'm not the fat man people think i am today. LOL. but yeah if he thinks he's bad enough to come looking for me, i swear his face will be on the back of a milk carton. i don't play that sh1t

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/252253_10151203871407732_820187106_n.jpg

[Syn7]

****. Accident really ****ed you up huh. Good job.

[hskwarrior]

YEAH it fukked me up bad dude. i was never supposed to walk again. i should be in a wheel chair right now. but fukkkkk dat. nothing stops me. i told them doctors FUK YOU I'M OUTTA HERE"........they didn't believe me. hahahahahahahahaha

I PROVED THEM WRONG!!!!!!!

[nautavac]

So now that everyone has had a good rant, I wonder if there are any past or present Sders that get on here who know if there are any lower belt material that is taught today which would come directly from GMST parent school in Indonesia?

[Old Noob]

So now that everyone has had a good rant, I wonder if there are any past or present Sders that get on here who know if there are any lower belt material that is taught today which would come directly from GMST parent school in Indonesia?

This is speculation but it's based on a decent amount of research. I think GMT's comments in the depositions that he made up the short katas and sparring techniques was a lie he told in the deposition to defend his copyright. I base this opinion on the fact that both he and Hiang teach them as part of their lower belt curriculum and I think, based on what I've heard about Hiang, that Hiang is unlikely to teach stuff that his brother completely made up. Some of the folks who were with SD from the beginning did indicate that the short kata and sparring techiniquest changed at some point and were made slightly less physically demanding but I think they were taught, in some fashion, in Indonesia. It's also pretty clear that the brown-belt crane forms were taught in Indonesia and not by Master Ie but by another Master in the same school. This is based on the fact that Hiang, who studied in Indonesia longer than GMT, has that whole system whereas SD has only the 3 cranes. All in all, I think much of the curriculum from white through 1st black pretty much came from indonesia. I say this because so many of the forms from white through first black implement techniques found in the short kata and sparring techiniques. I think at least one of the spear forms (spear fighting techiniques) did not and I think its pretty clear that none of the SD internal came from Indonesia. Again, these are my opnions but I'm fairly confident about them.

[hskwarrior]

This is speculation but it's based on a decent amount of research. I think GMT's comments in the depositions that he made up the short katas and sparring techniques was a lie he told in the deposition to defend his copyright.

how dare he try to protect his copyright while stealing the material of others? not a good person in my opinion.

[Old Noob]

how dare he try to protect his copyright while stealing the material of others? not a good person in my opinion.

Frank,

I'm aware of your opinions about SD, Jake Mace, GMT, TTM, and Kwaichang as is everyone else here on the board. I've stepped out of the ****ing match you guys are having so, please, have some courtesy and, if you don't have anything substantive to add to the question posed by the man, step off.

[hskwarrior]

HELL NAH. i want to know how you can hold him in such a light kwowing that he boosted forms from other lineages to teach you guys. how and why should he be respected for protecting his own copyright while stealing others stuff? its a real, true, and honest question. YOU STEP OFF or take this Bs thread to tattooed *****es new forum. plus this is not a thread on the GOOD of SD.....its about questioning the legitimacy of it. period.

[Old Noob]

HELL NAH. i want to know how you can hold him in such a light kwowing that he boosted forms from other lineages to teach you guys. how and why should he be respected for protecting his own copyright while stealing others stuff? its a real, true, and honest question. YOU STEP OFF or take this Bs thread to tattooed *****es new forum. plus this is not a thread on the GOOD of SD.....its about questioning the legitimacy of it. period.

What light do I hold him in Frank? When have I said he should be respected? Find a post by me where I say that he should be respected; you can't. The problem is that you have categorized all people having anything to do with SD as being GMT supporting sheeple. While it may be useful and easier for you to categorize people that way in your mind, it leads you to be wrong about your assumptions and to ask stupid questions that have no basis in the postings that have been made in this thread. If you want to troll the thread, Frank, own it, but don't ask dumb-ass questions about positions that I've never taken in the first place while pretending to be some SD thread police-man.

A poster asked a substantive question and I thought I could contribute to that answer. He may want other answers form others who have something substantial to offer. It's unlikely that he wants to read the broken record that is your view on SD, GMT, TTM, KC, etc. The thread can be about substantive questions too Frank. It's not about what you say it about. Nobody died and made you Mod.

[hskwarrior]

no apologies here,

sin the is a LIAR. You guys will never know whats SD and whats stolen from other people. what light? you just tried to say you BELIEVE he lied in court to protect his copyright. he lied under oath. what better place than court to bring out the truth but you believe he LIED TO THE JUDGE. why? why do you NOT want to believe he lied to his students, he lied to the court under oath, now you're saying he lied about lying. and you still don't get it????????????????


Nobody died and made you Mod.

im not trying to be the mod. but i am from the lineage that your SIN THE victimized via his stealing material from us. so miss me with your BS.

[Old Noob]

no apologies here,

sin the is a LIAR. You guys will never know whats SD and whats stolen from other people. what light? you just tried to say you BELIEVE he lied in court to protect his copyright. he lied under oath. what better place than court to bring out the truth but you believe he LIED TO THE JUDGE. why? why do you NOT want to believe he lied to his students, he lied to the court under oath, now you're saying he lied about lying. and you still don't get it????????????????



im not trying to be the mod. but i am from the lineage that your SIN THE victimized via his stealing material from us. so miss me with your BS.

Wrong again Frank. I'll take them point by point. If you have trouble reading what I write below, maybe someone can help you parce it out.

1. "You guys will never know whats [sic] SD and whats [sic] stolen from other people."
Answer: I'm not willing to admit that this is definitely true. It would be a heck of a lot easier to sort it all out if GMT would be honest but he won't. Still there is enough information out there to allow people who are willing to look to come to some informed conclusions about this.

2. "What light?"
Answer: You claimed in your prior post that I held GMT in some sort of "light." I wanted to know what light you thought I held him in becuase you won't find any post from me crediting him.

3. "[Y]ou just tried to say you BELIEVE he lied in court to protect his copyright.
Answer: Wrong Frank; I didn't try to say that I believe he lied under oath. I did say that I believe he lied under oath. I said believe rather than "he did lie under oath" not becuase I think he lied to the attorneys (there is no judge at a deposition, Frank) and not to his students - I BELIEVE he lies to his students too - but because I can't prove that he lied under oath.

4. "[W]hat better place than court to bring out the truth but you believe he LIED TO THE JUDGE."
Answer: Wrong Frank! I know with certainty that he did not lie to a judge in court. Depositions are under oath but don't occur in court and don't occur in front of a judge.

5. "Why?"
Answer: Why what?

6. "[W]hy do you NOT want to believe he lied to his students[?]"
Answer: I do believe he has lied to his students. I've not said otherwise.

7. "He lied to the court under oath,"
Answer: This has been dealt with above.

8. "[N]ow you're saying he lied about lying. and [sic] you still don't get it????????????????" [sic]
Answer: I never said he lied about lying. I said he lied at the deposition about creating the sparring techniques and short kata from whole cloth. That isn't a statement that implicates lying about lying. If someone asks you whether you lied when you did, and you answer that you didn't, that's lying about lying. The only thing I don't get, Frank, is how anyone takes you seriously at all. You rant and rant and rant and rant and rant. Your few good points - and there are some - are completely outweighed by your bad manners and your incoherrent multi-capped tirades. You think I don't get it because you attribute views to me that I don't hold and haven't supported on this forum. You don't get it, Frank, because you don't take the time to read things that others write and consider them. You don't get it Frank, because you're too busy posting some cute piece of photoshop trash to take the time to comprehend what others write. You're a poor communicator, Frank, not becuase you can't speak but becuase you can't listen. Your cup is too full.

BTW, how are you guys victimized when people do a ****ty version of a form and claim it as theirs while you have the real deal? I would think you'd want people to differentiate between the crappy imitator and the legitimate original.

[hskwarrior]

BTW, how are you guys victimized when people do a ****ty version of a form and claim it as theirs while you have the real deal? I would think you'd want people to differentiate between the crappy imitator and the legitimate original.

who the **** gave you nor anyone the right to steal our form, change a few moves, then give it a fake ass history to it? your stupid ass question indicates your true self and how you appreciate nothing at all. you look past sin the's lies as you are looking past the fact he stole our form. there should be NO....NONE.....ZIPPO....NADDA.......type of differential in regards to our form (5 animal). its not your form. it (5 animals) belongs to my lineage. neither you, sin the, nor anyone else in this universe for that matter can show me it existed in other schools that currently teach it. your SD schools are NOT included as your founder is a thief.

your school having our form in it isn't IMITATING. its called RAPE. your founder tried to get away with it instead of contacting us and explaining himself. there is no excuse good enough why your SD schools have raped so many forms that legitimately belonged to someone else.

fuk all else you said.

and i'm not even gonna talk about the wackness you guys are failing to admit to.

in regards to my lineages 5 animal form, the one your lineage has stolen from THE AMERICAN HUNG SING KWOON.....FUK WHAT YOU AND ANYONE ELSE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT. THIEVES. YOU DIDN'T HAVE A 5 ANIMAL FORM SO YOU HAD TO STEAL IT. BUT YOU STOLE IT FROM THE WRONGGGGGG FUKKIN PEOPLE.

[Empty_Cup]

This is speculation but it's based on a decent amount of research. I think GMT's comments in the depositions that he made up the short katas and sparring techniques was a lie he told in the deposition to defend his copyright. I base this opinion on the fact that both he and Hiang teach them as part of their lower belt curriculum and I think, based on what I've heard about Hiang, that Hiang is unlikely to teach stuff that his brother completely made up. Some of the folks who were with SD from the beginning did indicate that the short kata and sparring techiniquest changed at some point and were made slightly less physically demanding but I think they were taught, in some fashion, in Indonesia. It's also pretty clear that the brown-belt crane forms were taught in Indonesia and not by Master Ie but by another Master in the same school. This is based on the fact that Hiang, who studied in Indonesia longer than GMT, has that whole system whereas SD has only the 3 cranes. All in all, I think much of the curriculum from white through 1st black pretty much came from indonesia. I say this because so many of the forms from white through first black implement techniques found in the short kata and sparring techiniques. I think at least one of the spear forms (spear fighting techiniques) did not and I think its pretty clear that none of the SD internal came from Indonesia. Again, these are my opnions but I'm fairly confident about them.

Good post ON. I agree with most of what you say but think there's more to the story when it comes to internal. I agree with what Bruce and others have noted about Bagua xingyi, and taiji and don't believe these were created in Indonesia. The timeline of specific sets we've discussed earlier seems straightforward. I do think, though, that some form of bagua, xingyi, and taiji were practiced in Indonesia. And there's always the question of Liu hsing.

[Old Noob]

who the **** gave you nor anyone the right to steal our form, change a few moves, then give it a fake ass history to it? your stupid ass question indicates your true self and how you appreciate nothing at all. you look past sin the's lies as you are looking past the fact he stole our form. there should be NO....NONE.....ZIPPO....NADDA.......type of differential in regards to our form (5 animal). its not your form. it (5 animals) belongs to my lineage. neither you, sin the, nor anyone else in this universe for that matter can show me it existed in other schools that currently teach it. your SD schools are NOT included as your founder is a thief.

your school having our form in it isn't IMITATING. its called RAPE. your founder tried to get away with it instead of contacting us and explaining himself. there is no excuse good enough why your SD schools have raped so many forms that legitimately belonged to someone else.

fuk all else you said.

and i'm not even gonna talk about the wackness you guys are failing to admit to.

in regards to my lineages 5 animal form, the one your lineage has stolen from THE AMERICAN HUNG SING KWOON.....FUK WHAT YOU AND ANYONE ELSE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT. THIEVES. YOU DIDN'T HAVE A 5 ANIMAL FORM SO YOU HAD TO STEAL IT. BUT YOU STOLE IT FROM THE WRONGGGGGG FUKKIN PEOPLE.

Thank you, Frank, for so eloquently re-enforcing all the points I made in my previous post. You are truly incapable of comprehending all but the most basic English sentences and are even lesss capable of learning anything new. It must be truly awesome to know all that there is to know at such a young age. Your awesome skills are wasted here. You shold go and hang with the /b/rothers on 4chan. You'd be right at home.

[Old Noob]

Good post ON. I agree with most of what you say but think there's more to the story when it comes to internal. I agree with what Bruce and others have noted about Bagua xingyi, and taiji and don't believe these were created in Indonesia. The timeline of specific sets we've discussed earlier seems straightforward. I do think, though, that some form of bagua, xingyi, and taiji were practiced in Indonesia. And there's always the question of Liu hsing.

Thanks for pointing that out. I should be careful to say that my knowledge of the internal part of SD is very limited and you and Bruce, and others, have definitely plumbed that part of the issue to more depth than I.

[hskwarrior]

Thank you, Frank, for so eloquently re-enforcing all the points I made in my previous post. You are truly incapable of comprehending all but the most basic English sentences and are even lesss capable of learning anything new. It must be truly awesome to know all that there is to know at such a young age. Your awesome skills are wasted here. You shold go and hang with the /b/rothers on 4chan. You'd be right at home.

i'm not interested in what you have to say. i'm only interested in letting the outside world know that your lineage is known for boosting forms from video's and books and my lineage is a victim of the underhandedness this man who calls himself a teacher.

keep what you have to say to me. i'm really not interested.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c11.0.403.403/p403x403/541830_10151256810647732_1326762298_n.jpg

[David Jamieson]

You know, MK, as a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you. But for the rest of you...geez.

Some of you people are weird. :cool:

[Old Noob]

i'm only interested in letting the outside world know that your lineage is known for boosting forms from video's and books and my lineage is a victim of the underhandedness this man who calls himself a teacher.

Which you've done over and over and over and over and over and over in ALL CAPS, in ridiculous youtube videos, in dumb photoshops, in old-school raps. You're like the Sam-I-am of SD haters. You will hate us with a goat and on a boat. You will hate us in a house. You will hate us with a mouse. We've all got it.

I'm not offended, Frank, I just think you're a troll.

[hskwarrior]

I'm not offended, Frank, I just think you're a troll.

i'd be a troll if i had nothing to do with your lineage and decided to bash on you. since your lineage stole from us.....FUK YOU. IDC what you think of me. we don't know each other. thats the ONLY good that comes from this.

[Old Noob]

we don't know each other.

Finally, something gets through. That's what I've been trying to say Frank. You keep saying "you guys" this and "you guys" that when we're all individuals with different opionions; even the SD guys. You kept calling me clueless for taking positions that I'd never taken. I'm glad you can learn after all.

. . .

You're still wrong a little though; I've learned quite a bit about you by the way you conduct yourself here.

[hskwarrior]

you are all attached to sin the therefore thrown into the Sin The Gumbo.


You're still wrong a little though; I've learned quite a bit about you by the way you conduct yourself here.

never trust what you can't see. remember this is the internet. for all you know i could be gene ching. it could all be an act.

[Old Noob]

you are all attached to sin the therefore thrown into the Sin The Gumbo.

By you. You certainly don't speak for everyone here. I certainly wouldn't want somone who is so simple that they can't tell one person's views from another's to speak for me. But if you insist on continuing your completely ignorant overgrouping of anyone who has ever taken SD into one group and, consequently, making a lot of statements that are facially untrue (lies), then go ahead. It's no skin off my back.

[hskwarrior]

By you.

just by me? really? did i start this thread? did you not read what others have said?
is this what you want to believe?

[Old Noob]

just by me? really? did i start this thread? did you not read what others have said?
is this what you want to believe?

I think you're the only person putting people into SD "gumbo." I think that's the first usage of the term.

[Old Noob]

And some of the more intelligent critics have figured out that each of us has distinct views on the issues. You paint with a significantly broader brush.

[hskwarrior]

I think you're the only person putting people into SD "gumbo." I think that's the first usage of the term.

gumbo????? you know you have issues right???? really? GUMBO? you have nothing so you pick on my use of GUMBO? now thats some sad lifed nonsense i have no other way to went my anger BS!!!!!! LMAO


And some of the more intelligent critics have figured out that each of us has distinct views on the issues. You paint with a significantly broader brush.

if you were one of them, which obviously you're not, you'd see where my distaste comes from and keep your fukkin mouth shut. but again....obviously, you're not one of those intelligent critics. LOLOLOL. sarcastic or not.

[hskwarrior]

you know what? SD IS GUMBO EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! in every meaning of the word. minus the taste

[Old Noob]

if you were one of them, which obviously you're not, you'd see where my distaste comes from and keep your fukkin mouth shut.

You should take your own advice Frank. You're a hypocrite a hundred times over in this thread alone.

At least I have the mental capability to articulate my points without caps lock and to differentiate the views put forth by the parties to a conversation. You make yourself into a liar time and time again by being unable to do that. And then you whine about lying.

[hskwarrior]

You should take your own advice Frank. You're a hypocrite a hundred times over in this thread alone.

miss me with that bull****. your lineage stole from miine. fuk off and choke on a dik.

caps.....gumbo.....wow how simple can some people really be? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

der de derr

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyP1ejuv1AWzZega0PF6gySmqiHYp1_ J1xLzSRIKAv8qV2Eias

[Old Noob]

miss me with that bull****. your lineage stole from miine. fuk off and choke on a dik.

caps.....gumbo.....wow how simple can some people really be? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

der de derr

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyP1ejuv1AWzZega0PF6gySmqiHYp1_ J1xLzSRIKAv8qV2Eias

Truly your interwebz-fu is staggering. You win. You can has cheeseburger.

[hskwarrior]

Truly your interwebz-fu is staggering. You win. You can has cheeseburger.

derrr de derrrrr!

[Orion Paximus]

I think this thread has actually made me long for the days when Martial Artists settled their differences with their fists. This long distance anonymous crap does nothing.

[Old Noob]

So now that everyone has had a good rant, I wonder if there are any past or present Sders that get on here who know if there are any lower belt material that is taught today which would come directly from GMST parent school in Indonesia?

Bumping to get more discussion on this. Sorry for hijacking for mouth-fu with Frank today. I was bored and wanted to push the buttons.

What do folks thing about what we get from Indonesia verses what came later?

[brucereiter]

Bumping to get more discussion on this. Sorry for hijacking for mouth-fu with Frank today. I was bored and wanted to push the buttons.

What do folks thing about what we get from Indonesia verses what came later?

It would be great to know but sin the will for some reason not give any straight answers about martial arts. Only stories and legends and apparent lies.
Ultimately it does no matter. Sin the taught stuff, some people learned stuff and made something of it and others blindly followed and here we are. Confused and looking for the truth. Nothing sin the has done or will ever do can take away the skills I developed through my own hard work. Weather sin the lies, tells the truth or says nothing does not change anything.
For old students I suggest keeping what you value and dropping the rest, for new or potential students educate yourself and know what you are getting into if you study with and "sd" related teachers. Some will each you great martial arts and others will teach crap but all of the history and origin is in question as is every word that sin the says and rights and he same for his students that still spread the bull****.

Frank,

I think you should contact sin the directly and tell I'm what you think. (Video it for us) You can actually find his info with a google search or you could call bill leonard ( get his number from sinthe.com) and tell hm to get you in contact with sin the. Yelling at current and former students who are not perpetuating sin the's crap is not going to change anything.
Sin the somehow teaches your systems material.

You said you want people to know sin the teaches a poor version of your systems material and you want him to stop or to give credit.
I want the same thing. I think most current and past sd student want that too.

You said you want to let potential students know the truth of the history your material.
I think with rare exception all the current and sat sd people here want that too.

I think very few people here defend sin the in any way. I certainly do not.

Happy training

[Syn7]

So... Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

Your turn. This is how civilized intelligent people debate. Here's your chance. If you write it off with weak insults and more backpeddling, then we know where you stand and how capable you are of defending your position. Throw down already.







As for those who are a part of TTM's lil exclusive site, has he posted any of this there? A simple yes or a no would be nice.... for starters, anyways.


I like how TTM gets quiet now.


So....

Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

Your turn! Nice and simple. Not too confusing for those of limited cognitive abilities. Nice n slow.

YOUR TURN!!!

[Kellen Bassette]

For old students I suggest keeping what you value and dropping the rest,


In the end, that's what must be done with everything.




Frank,

I think you should contact sin the directly and tell I'm what you think. (Video it for us)

I, for one, would watch that video. :cool: