Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[nautavac]

I really enjoyed the reply, and the discussion (with a few exceptions). Bruce had a very poignant suggestion about HSK calling and confronting GMST directly as well. Thank you all for the response and I will be watching the discussion, happy training.

[brucereiter]

I really enjoyed the reply, and the discussion (with a few exceptions). Bruce had a very poignant suggestion about HSK calling and confronting GMST directly as well. Thank you all for the response and I will be watching the discussion, happy training.

peacefully confront. just ask him.

[Syn7]

In the end, that's what must be done with everything.




I, for one, would watch that video. :cool:

Yeah, I do that with Bak Mei. It's not all for me. I learn what I'm taught then later assess how it's working out, make some decisions. Keep as is, rework, seek more instruction for understanding, or just move on.

Word on the video, but I doubt Sin The would take up his offer in person or on the phone. Besides, why argue with a proven liar? He has shown to be an unreliable source of information, regardless of what's true and what isn't. So what's the point? He is so committed to his bull**** now, it's a lost cause. Truth would hurt him more than continued lies at this point. And unless he's really stupid, he will be aware of that.

[Syn7]

I really enjoyed the reply, and the discussion (with a few exceptions). Bruce had a very poignant suggestion about HSK calling and confronting GMST directly as well. Thank you all for the response and I will be watching the discussion, happy training.

So I guess people who ruin the "I don't want to talk about the fraudulent system I learned" parade are the exceptions, yes? Regardless of whether some is good or not, that's irrelevant. You are going to do what you want to do. IMO, the biggest SD critics should be the marks. Disrespecting SKT's system is not disrespecting every person involved. If they choose to ignore certain truths, they disrespect themselves. People should be called on their bull****. Me, you, everyone. Circle jerks don't do much other than validate peoples actions in their own minds for the comfort value. Quite similar to a fat woman who eats after seeing herself in the mirror and doesn't like what she's seeing. **** it, time for some doritos. :rolleyes:

[brucereiter]

Word on the video, but I doubt Sin The would take up his offer in person or on the phone. Besides, why argue with a proven liar? He has shown to be an unreliable source of information, regardless of what's true and what isn't. So what's the point? He is so committed to his bull**** now, it's a lost cause. Truth would hurt him more than continued lies at this point. And unless he's really stupid, he will be aware of that.

i agree. sin the would likely do just as you describe. frank could at least have the satisfaction of telling sin the how he feels instead of going off on people here some of whom have said nothing offensive to him.

[Syn7]

i agree. sin the would likely do just as you describe. frank could at least have the satisfaction of telling sin the how he feels instead of going off on people here some of whom have said nothing offensive to him.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending HSK. I said it before, his way is not my way. Besides, he seems capable of defending himself and comfortable with his approach. So, you know, it is what it is. He will stop when he's ready just as I will stop *****ing at TTM when I am ready. Not a moment sooner. Believe that.

Anyways, curious... You been to his forum? TTM's, that is. Has he posted his reference materials for his arguments? Even a list of these materials? Book titles, anything? He doesn't really seem up to it. But honestly, I'm curious. I don't want to assume he's full of ****. He could be lying or just not very smooth when ducking questions for any number of reasons.

Also I will be honest. When it comes to people like TTM, I think we, as a society, let people off too easilly. Somebody makes a retard argument then two weeks later after the buzz dies down they are taken seriously again. Don't get me wrong, second chances are great. 3rd, 4th, 5th even. Sometimes. But I mean, come on. These people make insane comments then slip back into the fold a few weeks later and it's like none of it ever happened. Am I the only one who finds this intensely dysfunctional, especially since it's on a communal level. We get comfortable with bull**** so easily. It's weird to me. Live and let live only goes so far. It doesn't mean unlimited free passes. It's not an emotional thing for me, it's an intellectual thing. It's just not right. Even online, the largest experiment in chaos in human history, we should hold people to some reasonable standard. I don't mind people who are aggressive or not nice. I don't really care how people approach their arguments. Etiquette and PC are secondary. I care about the substance. And far too often people of little substance get away with it way too long. Which comes full circle right back to SKT. Facades. Weak.

You seem pretty honest, what's your take?

[nautavac]

So I guess people who ruin the "I don't want to talk about the fraudulent system I learned" parade are the exceptions, yes? Regardless of whether some is good or not, that's irrelevant. You are going to do what you want to do. IMO, the biggest SD critics should be the marks. Disrespecting SKT's system is not disrespecting every person involved. If they choose to ignore certain truths, they disrespect themselves. People should be called on their bull****. Me, you, everyone. Circle jerks don't do much other than validate peoples actions in their own minds for the comfort value. Quite similar to a fat woman who eats after seeing herself in the mirror and doesn't like what she's seeing. **** it, time for some doritos. :rolleyes:

I really don't know why you would pick this apart. The few exceptions I was referring to are the many posts that have been made which do resemble nothing more than two children fussing over who can pee the furthest, those are the exceptions I was referring to. Good, substantive discussion pops up here and there throughout the thread, then ends in a torrent of name calling and challenges or so it would seem. Those are the exceptions I was referring to.

[tattooedmonk]

i'm not the fat man people think i am today. LOL. but yeah if he thinks he's bad enough to come looking for me, i swear his face will be on the back of a milk carton. i don't play that sh1t

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/252253_10151203871407732_820187106_n.jpg
Make it happen then ! What a ****ing joke..

[hskwarrior]

Make it happen then ! What a ****ing joke..

i told you where i was at. come look for me and find out. bring a camera too cause we need a new camera.

[Snipsky]

Make it happen then ! What a ****ing joke..

Mr. Stinky Twinky, you're not good enough to defeat frank. everyone including your classmates can easily see that you are nothing more than a talker. talk talk talk, afraid to walk the walk. Frank's not afraid to post video's of himself but you are totally afraid to do what he did. tisk tisk tisk.....all bark no bite.

[Syn7]

Make it happen then ! What a ****ing joke..

Still duckin, huh.



So....

Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

Nice and simple. Not too confusing for those of limited cognitive abilities. Nice n slow.

YOUR TURN!!!

[One student]

Word on the video, but I doubt Sin The would take up his offer in person or on the phone. Besides, why argue with a proven liar? He has shown to be an unreliable source of information, regardless of what's true and what isn't. So what's the point? He is so committed to his bull**** now, it's a lost cause. Truth would hurt him more than continued lies at this point. And unless he's really stupid, he will be aware of that.

As Old Noob and Bruce and others have said, there are a large number of SD'ers, past and present, who value what they have learned and practice, but also have questions about what it is and where it came from. And as others have said, the internet will catch up to everyone sooner or later, so it will come to a head at some point. But making a phone call or the like would not only not get a documented or verifiable response (who would believe it if someone said, "Oh yeah, I called, so and so then told me such and such"?), but might also more likely be ignored, like any other unsolicited and uninvited caller.

But there is a Facebook page for the SDA. And Sin The's school site has a "contact us" which is bound to go to someone in authority. And they have a Twitter feed. Many individual schools also have their own sites and pages. May be kicking the hornet's nest, but if either spreading or finding out the truth is so important to outsiders, there is bound to be a way to do it. A current or former student, not really any reason to answer or respond, and that is very likely to burn a bridge, hurt feelings, and offend friends and past or present teachers, more than anything else. May be same for any one else. And of course the responses, if any (and there may be none, those in charge may feel no need to respond or not in their interests to do so) could be as easily posted and distributed as a deposition. EML did post something when the deposition was published.

Remember being in a meeting of black belts once, which SD did approximately annually back then. It was well known there were malcontents in the school and in the room. GMS invited any one who wasn't happy to stand up and say so, one did. He mouthed off something offensive about the system or something or other. GMS quietly told him he wasn't qualified to judge, as I recall. He started to approach GMS and 200 black belts stood up and demonstrated their displeasure, so to speak. The guy wisely left the building and wasn't seen in the school again.

And of course we've all seen the "hecklers" in audiences of shows and public events, and the way they are received when offensively disrupting the purpose of the event.

Just saying, might be a good way, and a bad way, if actual information is the goal. "I have a question: how is it SD claims such and such, but this book or site or whatever says this and that?" Might suggest an actual well-intentioned inquiry might be better received if not in all caps and full of vulgarity, but that's a different point, isn't it?

But if one wants to b*tch, don't b*tch out the students, or those who you might also call victims if what some say is true --- go to the source. No one here will ever have the answers, only speculation or at best reasoned hypotheses.

[tattooedmonk]

Still duckin, huh.



So....

Evidence. HSCLF guys coming out the woodwork to testify that it's a HS form. Subjective, okay.

Evidence, DFW book. Show us another book that is not related to HSCLF that published the form on an earlier date.

Nice and simple. Not too confusing for those of limited cognitive abilities. Nice n slow.

YOUR TURN!!!you mean frank.:rolleyes:
That isn't any proof at all. When I receive the book from China I will.

[hskwarrior]

you mean frank.
That isn't any proof at all. When I receive the book from China I will.

LMAO....LMAO.....LMAO......you ain't got sh1t. you ain't gonna do sh1t. and you ain't about sh1t. fake ass wannabe.

the idiot doesn't even know who is hung sing related on this forum and who isn't. how funny. many of the people who argued with him are family. LOL. he's a fukkin loser.

[brucereiter]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending HSK. I said it before, his way is not my way. Besides, he seems capable of defending himself and comfortable with his approach. So, you know, it is what it is. He will stop when he's ready just as I will stop *****ing at TTM when I am ready. Not a moment sooner. Believe that.

:D



Anyways, curious... You been to his forum? TTM's, that is. Has he posted his reference materials for his arguments? Even a list of these materials? Book titles, anything? He doesn't really seem up to it. But honestly, I'm curious. I don't want to assume he's full of ****. He could be lying or just not very smooth when ducking questions for any number of reasons.

i have been to his new forum. no talk about that subject that i have read. its mostly been me and a few other current and ex students talking about tai chi chuan. no drama...




Also I will be honest. When it comes to people like TTM, I think we, as a society, let people off too easilly. Somebody makes a retard argument then two weeks later after the buzz dies down they are taken seriously again. Don't get me wrong, second chances are great. 3rd, 4th, 5th even. Sometimes. But I mean, come on. These people make insane comments then slip back into the fold a few weeks later and it's like none of it ever happened. Am I the only one who finds this intensely dysfunctional, especially since it's on a communal level. We get comfortable with bull**** so easily. It's weird to me. Live and let live only goes so far. It doesn't mean unlimited free passes. It's not an emotional thing for me, it's an intellectual thing. It's just not right. Even online, the largest experiment in chaos in human history, we should hold people to some reasonable standard. I don't mind people who are aggressive or not nice. I don't really care how people approach their arguments. Etiquette and PC are secondary. I care about the substance. And far too often people of little substance get away with it way too long. Which comes full circle right back to SKT. Facades. Weak.


You seem pretty honest, what's your take?

sin kwang the is a mystery man, who knows what the truth is? i wish he would be clear and explicit in honestly answering questions about any of the material taught in his system even if the answer was an honest "i don't know".

i agree with the general ideas you present but if i were ttm and frank spoke that way to me i would ignore him and not give him anything negative or positive.
i cant speak for ttm other than i dont agree with the bickering back and forth but ... ...
(i wont repeat that broken record yet at least)

[Empty_Cup]

...

But there is a Facebook page for the SDA. And Sin The's school site has a "contact us" which is bound to go to someone in authority. And they have a Twitter feed. Many individual schools also have their own sites and pages. May be kicking the hornet's nest, but if either spreading or finding out the truth is so important to outsiders, there is bound to be a way to do it. A current or former student, not really any reason to answer or respond, and that is very likely to burn a bridge, hurt feelings, and offend friends and past or present teachers, more than anything else. May be same for any one else. And of course the responses, if any (and there may be none, those in charge may feel no need to respond or not in their interests to do so) could be as easily posted and distributed as a deposition. EML did post something when the deposition was published.

...

...

But if one wants to b*tch, don't b*tch out the students, or those who you might also call victims if what some say is true --- go to the source. No one here will ever have the answers, only speculation or at best reasoned hypotheses.

Good post OS. I have to think this has been done before at some point. Do you know if there was ever an official response other than the letter you referenced?

[Syn7]

:D


i have been to his new forum. no talk about that subject that i have read. its mostly been me and a few other current and ex students talking about tai chi chuan. no drama...




sin kwang the is a mystery man, who knows what the truth is? i wish he would be clear and explicit in honestly answering questions about any of the material taught in his system even if the answer was an honest "i don't know".

i agree with the general ideas you present but if i were ttm and frank spoke that way to me i would ignore him and not give him anything negative or positive.
i cant speak for ttm other than i dont agree with the bickering back and forth but ... ...
(i wont repeat that broken record yet at least)


Word....!!!

[Syn7]

you mean frank.:rolleyes:
That isn't any proof at all. When I receive the book from China I will.

Name it. Why do you need it in your hands to name the title, author and house???

[OldandUsed]

Since SKT resides right there in CA, and HSK is right there in CA, why don't they get together and HSK get in SKT's face about the form and they hash it out between them? Film it, post it and be done with it?

[OldandUsed]

@OneStudent. Yup, I can remember being at a BB meeting at the Sportscenter when one guy stood up and popped off. That was amusing, when he realized he was about to get his butt kicked. Turned a little lighter, didn't he?

[Kellen Bassette]

When I receive the book from China I will.

Good luck with that. I ordered a book once from an American company, but they had to back order the book from China. After 6 months I told them to cancel my order. They apologized and told me it takes them an inordinate amount of time for them to receive books from China. I pop by their site now and then..that book is still listed on backorder....it's been a couple years.

Hope your guys are more on the ball than those guys were.

[brucereiter]

@OneStudent. Yup, I can remember being at a BB meeting at the Sportscenter when one guy stood up and popped off. That was amusing, when he realized he was about to get his butt kicked. Turned a little lighter, didn't he?

What was the nature of his comments/questions? Are you saying that sd black belts were actually going to "kick his butt" for asking or saying something offensive?
What kind of comment or question would solicit this type of response?
Why would someone not be able to ask a question without the fear of violence?

[Kellen Bassette]

Since SKT resides right there in CA, and HSK is right there in CA, why don't they get together and HSK get in SKT's face about the form and they hash it out between them? Film it, post it and be done with it?

Could you imagine?? I wonder if HSK would start by calmly asking questions, then go off...or just go off. It would be good family fun, I think. :D

[sean_stonehart]

What was the nature of his comments/questions? Are you saying that sd black belts were actually going to "kick his butt" for asking or saying something offensive?
What kind of comment or question would solicit this type of response?
Why would someone not be able to ask a question without the fear of violence?

Bruce... not the first time I've heard that, or for that fact experienced it myself in SD.

[OldandUsed]

As I recall, and I am an old guy with sometimes fuzzy memory, the BB stood up and smack talked SKT. Made derogatory statements about the material, the teaching and that none of the BB in the club could fight. He was on the verge of telling SKT that he thought he was a fake (as I guess is his right, but if he felt that way, why not just leave?) and I stood up and told him he could not talk to my master that way. (Yes, at that time I was a koolaid drinker. :)) Anyway, SKT smiled at him and said he thought it would be best for him if he left. Bill Leonard and I think Eric Smith escorted him out of the room. Anyone else in here remember it differently?

[RJ797]

Bruce... not the first time I've heard that, or for that fact experienced it myself in SD.

Had to still be a Bill Leonard situation. I just can't see Mike Reid threatening you with violence.

[sean_stonehart]

Had to still be a Bill Leonard situation. I just can't see Mike Reid threatening you with violence.

You would be exactly correct.

[hskwarrior]

all of you SD people can print and hand SIN Kwang The what i said. He's a THIEF and a LIAR. here i am saying it in a public forum. now hit the print button, copy and paste it into an email. The courts proved him to be an outright LIAR and all of you proved to be DUMMIES!

Print and Send. let's see what happens. if i happen to fight Sin The do you think he'd use his monkey beaks on me? if JAKE THE FAKE has twin monkey beaks i could only imagine what SIN THE has. wow......ROTFFLMFAO. oor maybe he'll sting me with 10,000 bees.....or get me with his tiger monkey roll. lololol I think i can defeat him with my Dragon Sparrow Mantis Beak.

monkey and mantis beaks......"now thats some X - file sh1t" only the Dragon Sparrow Mantis Beak is real. all else is fantasy.


the funny thing is, we've all seen sin the move, i doubt anyone would be afraid of him.

PRINT OUT AND FORWARD

[Empty_Cup]

What was the nature of his comments/questions? Are you saying that sd black belts were actually going to "kick his butt" for asking or saying something offensive?
What kind of comment or question would solicit this type of response?
Why would someone not be able to ask a question without the fear of violence?

The way One Student wrote it, it sounds as though the BB was walking towards GMT in a threatening manner. I think your comment is trying to make it seem like something it's not.

I have never felt uncomfortable asking questions either at my school or Lexington.

[OldandUsed]

The one incident I ever encountered was at the Sportscenter during one of the BB meetings and this guy, I do not recall his name, stood up and started dissing SKT. I thought it was disrespectful and said so to him. Once that happened, it galvanized more reaction. No blows were landed, just an invitation to leave with an escort.

I am a former sd-er, not current. Not terribly impressed with the untruths and deception from the organization. Had a situation with SKT occur that called his character into question and I left. Cannot see why anyone else that had issues with him did not just do what I did. No need to stand up and bad-mouth him in a meeting while wearing a gi and the belt you got from him. Just leave. But then, that is just my opinion.

[kwaichang]

So You want to fight a 67 year old man , ? Really ? come on go fight Master Reid. He is in your weight class and a student of GMThe. Go for it. KC

[MasterKiller]

TTM FINALLY released his first video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LYx1CRrJzM

Check it out!

[hskwarrior]

So You want to fight a 67 year old man , ? Really ? come on go fight Master Reid. He is in your weight class and a student of GMThe. Go for it. KC

i was just asking if......but if an old man thinks he's a young man then well.....LOL.

no, i would not fight the old guy. ON kfm i may act like a jerk, but thats on purpose.

would i say anything to him face to face. ya **** straight. :D

[Syn7]

What was the nature of his comments/questions? Are you saying that sd black belts were actually going to "kick his butt" for asking or saying something offensive?
What kind of comment or question would solicit this type of response?
Why would someone not be able to ask a question without the fear of violence?

Thank you. I didn't wanna say this because people would just write it off because I said it. Glad you did that. Keep it real.

And of course, my way would be more offensive. Something like this:

If I can't speak my mind in an environment that I PAID to be in, then those people are pussies and *******s. Straight up. Every single guy that stood up and puffed out his chest is an emotional child. It's one thing to ask them to leave and not come back, it's another to do some knuckledragger stuff. It's not the street and I would hope you guys aren't a bunch of thugs. In this setting, manning up is patiently letting them vent for a moment then telling them to beat it and not come back. Assuming you disagree with what they said, of course. I would have allowed myself to be attacked just to make a point. So what, u get stomped out by ten guys. It's not like they have it in them to curb you. It would have been more catered to their movie ideals. No big deal. Lose one fight, the next ones aren't so scary. It's all good.

[Syn7]

Could you imagine?? I wonder if HSK would start by calmly asking questions, then go off...or just go off. It would be good family fun, I think. :D

In a physical confrontation, the sheer size difference would make it a very skewed fight. Being a skilled midget only gets you so far. That cinimatic "master" stuff doesn't fly when your opponent(s) aren't peons.

It would be interesting to see both reactions.

BTW, CA is a big place people. They may not be living next door to eachother. :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

As I recall, and I am an old guy with sometimes fuzzy memory, the BB stood up and smack talked SKT. Made derogatory statements about the material, the teaching and that none of the BB in the club could fight. He was on the verge of telling SKT that he thought he was a fake (as I guess is his right, but if he felt that way, why not just leave?) and I stood up and told him he could not talk to my master that way. (Yes, at that time I was a koolaid drinker. :)) Anyway, SKT smiled at him and said he thought it would be best for him if he left. Bill Leonard and I think Eric Smith escorted him out of the room. Anyone else in here remember it differently?

So why frame it as it was framed in previous posts? They reeked of lil dick syndrome. No offense to you, of course. :) Seriously.

[Syn7]

The way One Student wrote it, it sounds as though the BB was walking towards GMT in a threatening manner. I think your comment is trying to make it seem like something it's not.

I have never felt uncomfortable asking questions either at my school or Lexington.

I'm pretty sure I could get 95% of you to swing on me. In any setting.

[Syn7]

The one incident I ever encountered was at the Sportscenter during one of the BB meetings and this guy, I do not recall his name, stood up and started dissing SKT. I thought it was disrespectful and said so to him. Once that happened, it galvanized more reaction. No blows were landed, just an invitation to leave with an escort.

I am a former sd-er, not current. Not terribly impressed with the untruths and deception from the organization. Had a situation with SKT occur that called his character into question and I left. Cannot see why anyone else that had issues with him did not just do what I did. No need to stand up and bad-mouth him in a meeting while wearing a gi and the belt you got from him. Just leave. But then, that is just my opinion.

Some people just go with the flow, and others stand up to things they see as wrong, or feel they have been wronged. I'm assuming it took some time and money to be a BB. Maybe he felt ripped off and had the need to take a stand? Honestly, it's the live and let live people that make change so slow. In some cases it works as a benefit, for sure, but in many more cases it causes harm in the long run. I use the same argument when talking about the "peoples government". You allow things like citizens united to happen, therefor it is somewhat deserved. It won't go away until enough people stand against it. This transfers over into almost any scenario. I do not believe SD is completely harmless. Kids go there. People put in thousands of dollars and many many hours. It's just not right to be lied to and defrauded like that. Regardless of whether some of it is good or not.

I'm not saying that the guy was right or wrong. I wasn't there. Same for how everyone else reacted. As it was first presented earlier was weak though. Straight up.

[Syn7]

i was just asking if......but if an old man thinks he's a young man then well.....LOL.

no, i would not fight the old guy. ON kfm i may act like a jerk, but thats on purpose.

would i say anything to him face to face. ya **** straight. :D

Having such a physical advantage gives you the ability to really speak your mind without worrying about any immediate physical consequences. This is a good thing. If he attacks you, drops his ass. If he stands there and argues with you, state your case. Simple.

That being said, anyone who would actually travel over **** like this is ridiculous. I don't blame you for not bothering, regardless of how you feel about the form.

[brucereiter]

The way One Student wrote it, it sounds as though the BB was walking towards GMT in a threatening manner. I think your comment is trying to make it seem like something it's not.

I have never felt uncomfortable asking questions either at my school or Lexington.

My implication is that it is not possible to ask sin the a question about the history he claims. jrq pakua is a great example. where did sin the get the "64" rules and drawings from it originate from? Questions like that will not be answered. If you push you will get resistance. If the black belt in question was in anyway offering violence to sin the or anyone else involved he was in the wrong and probably lucky to not have been beat up.

[One student]

The way One Student wrote it, it sounds as though the BB was walking towards GMT in a threatening manner. I think your comment is trying to make it seem like something it's not.

I have never felt uncomfortable asking questions either at my school or Lexington.

I am amazed how fast a story turned into a war. Sometimes it makes one want to just keep things to themselves. But let me try to clarify as much as possible, before it is exaggerated even more out of control. Some may remember it different or better, and I defer to that.

As I recall it: there was a time at the school in Lexington, in the early 80's particularly I think, there were members who were between two "masters": their SD colleagues, and another school across town. Some SD people were also known to be dissatisfied with SD, but stayed to cause trouble, or to take the classes they couldn't get somewhere else, or to report to someone else what was being taught, or even in the process of starting competing schools, but with SD material.

Yes, it was to a big extent an exaggerated problem, in some minds right out of a movie. But there was a time in martial arts that if you belonged to a school, you were loyal to that school and that Master, and if you didn't want to be loyal, you said so and left. You didn't hang around and be two-faced about who your loyalties were with.

So it was known there were persons who were hanging around for that purpose -- to cause trouble. It could have been handled by a private "talking to" (wink wink), even a forced and secret "ex-communication." Or worse. It wasn't. it was decided to talk it out in a meeting where everyone could speak their mind.

So there was a closed door meeting, among a couple hundred black belt "brothers and sisters." Anyone who had been given the rank of 1st black or up was welcome to attend, no exceptions. GMS started by bringing up to everyone he was aware there were dissenters, and he wanted to get whatever issues there were out in the open, rather than let the cancer burn a hole in the school. So he opened the floor for anyone to say anything.

One person, who was known to be badmouthing the school behind everyone's back, while still attending class, took that invitation. He was a 1st degree, and not long at that as I recall, but I could be wrong. As I recall it, he made comments, not asking questions about lineage or origins or anything, but to essentially insult the senior students and instructors and bad mouth the material. As I recall it, and I have a very good memory of it, GMS simply told him, and very calmly, smiling, and in almost the exact words, "You maybe aren't qualified to make that judgment." There were no harsh words from anyone, other than the Malcontent, although the room was very tense. No one told him to shut up or challenged him. In fact, as i recall it we wanted to hear what he and anyone else had to say.

But the Malcontent then took it up a notch. Most of us know of the "legends" of challenge fighting in martial arts lore, that one can't go in another's school and "drop a challenge," or fight the head of a school, until they have defeated their top student. So after GMS told this guy that he wasn't qualified to judge the entire school or system, and maybe something to the effect that if he wasn't happy in the school he should leave and find another one, the Gentleman then put his arm out to push GMS out of the way, and actually put his hand on GMS's arm or maybe chest, and stating, "I'm not leaving I've got things I want to say," or something to that effect. It was then that the entire room stood up. Not because he "dared" to ask questions, but because he aggressively and physically put his hands on the head of the School. Don't tell me HSK or Syn7 or anyone else would have let anyone do that to their Sifu or Sensei and walk away.

But when the room stood in near unison to take up for their GM, the Gentleman yelled out, "Everyone of you can stand up, not a one of you can do anything anyway." Of course that made it worse, and there was more than one in the room who were then and there ready to take him up on that challenge. But as I recall it, 2 or 3 of the senior members, and I can't remember exactly who so I won't guess, got in front of him, and more importantly between him and everyone else, and told him if he thought that way he should just leave. He did, mouthing off as he did all the way out the door. He did not return and as I understood it joined and stayed with that other school across town.

One of the more senior students at the time, who's name I do remember but won't say, and who was an excellent practitioner in every way and without exception respected for his skill and character, but who you didn't mess with, at least not with bad intentions, after a few seconds of visibly steaming left the room emotionally upset -- angry as I recall. It was my distinct impression he was going out to give the Malcontent a piece of his mind, and maybe something else. I wasn't the only one who thought that -- 1 or 2 of the others, more senior still, went after him and brought him back.

So it wasn't a cult session where dissenters were humiliated and then ostracized, or where an innocent question was punished with violence or threat. It was a trouble maker given a chance to speak, in front of everyone, who became ugly. And instead of being then assaulted or worse, cooler heads calmed the situation and separated the catalysts and without violence. And the school was better off thereafter.

There is a lot of misunderstanding, even hate of GMS and SD. The questions about the origin of its materials, and the way GMS has presented or allowed it to be presented, are all there. The man and the system are flawed, and in some respects very flawed. Some have personally had bad experiences, and that makes me sad. But the rush to make everything out to be of evil motivation or retribution is not so justified. At least not to those with an open mind.

[Kellen Bassette]

In a physical confrontation, the sheer size difference would make it a very skewed fight. Being a skilled midget only gets you so far. That cinimatic "master" stuff doesn't fly when your opponent(s) aren't peons.

It would be interesting to see both reactions.

BTW, CA is a big place people. They may not be living next door to eachother. :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to imply a fist fight, but I'll bet Frank would give him a pretty good tirade about what he thinks about him. Of course I don't know him personally, so I wouldn't know how he would discuss it in person. At any rate there's the chance for some good reactions. :P

Yeah CA is a pretty big box. Are we talking LA or Shasta?...that's not exactly right up the road.

[wenshu]

Since SKT resides right there in CA,

Where?. . . . .

[OldandUsed]

Last I knew, it was in Chatsworth, CA.

[Empty_Cup]

Why would you give out SKT's city of residence on this forum where people have an obvious bias (understatement) against him?

[Syn7]

Dude, nobody is gonna go see him. And it's not like he posted his address. It's not hard to find people who are not hiding. If I knew your real name, I could find your address in a few minutes. Infact, I don't even need your name, just your IP. And if I can do it, many others can too. I'm no bad ass hacker. I just know what I need to know for engineering electronic and electromechanical "things". So imagine what a real hacker could do. Throw in some clever social engineering and laymen don't really stand a chance. That's just the curse of using a method of data transfer you don't fully understand. Most folks don't even know what a semi conductor is.

[brucereiter]

Why would you give out SKT's city of residence on this forum where people have an obvious bias (understatement) against him?

sin the's information is available online to anyone with google and a few moments to search.
i just used a combination of 5 words in google search and his home address came up in several hits just on the first page. to respect his privacy i will not say anything other than it is available.

even though i have the previously stated issues with sin the' i wish him no harm or harassment. if anyone used his information to stalk or harass him in anyway i think that is a crime and just wrong.

i do propose that if a person has a problem with him such as franks problem they go to the source instead of verbally attacking people in an online forum who are not the source of the problem. many of us live in america and it is not ok to challenge people to fights or threaten them but it is ok to ask questions and to share your opinion. even if it is an opposing opinion.

[Syn7]

A singular verbal confrontation is cool. Anything more is bull****.

Knocking someone around in the street for approaching you aggressively is one thing, but actually travelling to harm somebody is just retarded. Unless there is a major reason, that is. Like if you stalk and destroy a guy who killed your fam, OK. But over a form on the internet? Weaksauce. Nobody is gonna do that.

I doubt Frank could be bothered to travel to even talk to the guy, let alone actually harm him. Infact I dout HSK would even bother to skype with the guy unless the opportunity was dropped in his lap.

[hskwarrior]

to be honest, the only thing that would satisfy me would be an apology. aside from that i want nothing to do with SD. i have my own club and lineage to be proud of. i just wanted to use the forum to let people know they stole our form. thats not a cool thing.

now, i'm done with the whole thing. i know tattooed monk can't provide anything of worth. its not that hard to say the name and author of the book. if he had anything he'd obviously brag about it.

still, i'm to the possibility of a rare find. but i won't put money on it.-

[Old Noob]

to be honest, the only thing that would satisfy me would be an apology. aside from that i want nothing to do with SD. i have my own club and lineage to be proud of. i just wanted to use the forum to let people know they stole our form. thats not a cool thing.

now, i'm done with the whole thing. i know tattooed monk can't provide anything of worth. its not that hard to say the name and author of the book. if he had anything he'd obviously brag about it.

still, i'm to the possibility of a rare find. but i won't put money on it.-

Why should anyone give a flying **** about your satisfaction?

[hskwarrior]

Why should anyone give a flying **** about your satisfaction?

did your gay lover not tickle your pickle? is that why you're mad PIG? oink oink. mr dirty copper

[Old Noob]

did your gay lover not tickle your pickle? is that why you're mad PIG? oink oink. mr dirty copper

I'd have to give a crap to be mad, Frank. I don't :: I'm not.

[hskwarrior]

I'd have to give a crap to be mad, Frank. I don't :: I'm not.

nah old dirty......you care more than you know. and it shows. LOLOL.

http://guysarepigs.com/images/meet_icon_cop.gif

[Old Noob]

nah old dirty......you care more than you know. and it shows. LOLOL.

http://guysarepigs.com/images/meet_icon_cop.gif

Nah. I cared a while back when I thought you were a rational person who could carry on an intelligent conversation. But, now that I know that you aren't, you're just entertainment.

[tattooedmonk]

Why should anyone give a flying **** about your satisfaction?

Right!?....

[tattooedmonk]

to be honest, the only thing that would satisfy me would be an apology. aside from that i want nothing to do with SD. i have my own club and lineage to be proud of. i just wanted to use the forum to let people know they stole our form. thats not a cool thing.

now, i'm done with the whole thing. i know tattooed monk can't provide anything of worth. its not that hard to say the name and author of the book. if he had anything he'd obviously brag about it.

still, i'm to the possibility of a rare find. but i won't put money on it.-not everyone is like you Frank.

[tattooedmonk]

We are all sorry ..... That you have sand in your mangina and can't get it out. You don't own the form and haven't proven that you have any claim to it .

[hskwarrior]

We are all sorry ..... That you have sand in your mangina and can't get it out. You don't own the form and haven't proven that you have any claim to it .

are you gonna own up to being a liar yet? do you realize with all of your bluffing you have only hurt not only your own but ALL OF SD's credibility with your bluffs?

we have almost 100 years of being in america teaching this form. YOU HAVE NOTHING but stolen material.

i find it really ridiculous how you and old and dirty talk smack then when its returned you play the prissy victims. i thought i could expect more from the PO-PO.....but a pig is a pig.

[tattooedmonk]

Now I am a liar too!? Wow, you are definitely mental. Get help.

[tattooedmonk]

are you gonna own up to being a liar yet? do you realize with all of your bluffing you have only hurt not only your own but ALL OF SD's credibility with your bluffs?

we have almost 100 years of being in america teaching this form. YOU HAVE NOTHING but stolen material.

i find it really ridiculous how you and old and dirty talk smack then when its returned you play the prissy victims. i thought i could expect more from the PO-PO.....but a pig is a pig.

Where is your proof that someone stole your precious form!?

[hskwarrior]

Where is your proof that someone stole your precious form!?

where is your evidence that it exists outside of my lineage? you have NOTHING. absolutely nothing. except for DECEIT. that seems to be a theme surrounding shaolin do.


Now I am a liar too!? Wow, you are definitely mental. Get help.

yes. 100%. i am calling you a fraud and a LIAR. if you had students who trusted you, they will read this and know that you are nothing but Liar. You said you have a book coming that will shed light on this. but we're going into the 2nd month of the new year and none of your claims are coming about. so yes, You are an outright liar.

what are you going to do about it?

[Orion Paximus]

Man I miss the 80s when all this stuff would have been settled with fists instead of internet jabs.

[hskwarrior]

Man I miss the 80s when all this stuff would have been settled with fists instead of internet jabs.

yeah me too. but back then we didn't have to worry about people like Sin The stealing other style forms. there was more respect for gung fu back then.

[JSE]

Maybe someone could organize a "tournament". Not that it would resolve anything. But better that e-sparring. :D

[Old Noob]

yeah me too. but back then we didn't have to worry about people like Sin The stealing other style forms. there was more respect for gung fu back then.

You're so thick man; the 80s is precisely when SD and GMT were in apogy. That was the sportcenter hey day. GMT was in with the Arnold.

BTW, that is some severely hallucinagenic nostalgia you're having and your creating revisionist history as well.

[hskwarrior]

You're so thick man; the 80s is precisely when SD and GMT were in apogy. That was the sportcenter hey day. GMT was in with the Arnold.

BTW, that is some severely hallucinagenic nostalgia you're having and your creating revisionist history as well.

STFU now OLD ASS CULT LEADER

[Old Noob]

STFU now OLD ASS CULT LEADER

You can't tell the cult leader to STFU and expect that he'll listen to you; he's the leader after all.

You're too easy man, too easy.

[hskwarrior]

You can't tell the cult leader to STFU and expect that he'll listen to you; he's the leader after all.

You're too easy man, too easy.

you think so? LOL. Delusional PIG. (your wife thought i was thick too :D)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/550514_524747194224749_834990655_n.jpg

[Old Noob]

you think so? LOL. Delusional PIG. (your wife thought i was thick too :D)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/550514_524747194224749_834990655_n.jpg

I'm a delusional pig now? How so? Do tell?

I'm unmarried by the way. . .
which is why I'm hitting your mom. :eek:

Don't be mad bro. :)

[hskwarrior]

I'm a delusional pig now? How so? Do tell?

I'm unmarried by the way. . .
which is why I'm hitting your mom.

Don't be mad bro.

when it comes to you and SD..... i'm not mad. I actually enjoy laughing at you guys because you're too lame to know you got duped.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/58802/58802,1217699555,4/stock-photo-toon-monkey-kung-fu-15710872.jpg

http://static4.depositphotos.com/1010671/274/i/950/depositphotos_2747941-Toon-Monkey-Kung-Fu.jpg

[Old Noob]

when it comes to you and SD..... i'm not mad. I actually enjoy laughing at you guys because you're too lame to know you got duped.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/58802/58802,1217699555,4/stock-photo-toon-monkey-kung-fu-15710872.jpg

http://static4.depositphotos.com/1010671/274/i/950/depositphotos_2747941-Toon-Monkey-Kung-Fu.jpg

You're an infinite loop of dumb. I've already admitted about a hundred times that GMT is a liar. My eyes are open brother.

[hskwarrior]

This is way more important that what ever you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCuqvlKJ2E

[Syn7]

You're an infinite loop of dumb. I've already admitted about a hundred times that GMT is a liar. My eyes are open brother.

OK so I don't really wanna play the ****ing game today. I just have a couple questions.
I didn't know you were a police. Can I ask you a question I ask whenever I get the chance. Yes? Why thank you.

And please, honest questions that simply require honest answers. You can PM the answers if you would rather do it that way.

So, it's two questions really. 1, how do you reconcile with having to give out fines and/or press charges for things you yourself have done?

2, Have you ever seen another officer cross the line and you did NOT do anything about it? This is my main question, I find I only get an honest answer about 25% of the time. Usually I just get a straight denial that it even happens, but as it's in person and I study behaviour, it's really easy to see when they are lying. It won't be so easy online, but I would appreciate some honesty none the less.

Thanx for your time.

[Kellen Bassette]

This is way more important that what ever you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCuqvlKJ2E

:eek:That was awesome!:D

[bawang]

:eek:That was awesome!:D

that kid got shot

the irony

[hskwarrior]

imagine how the uncle feels. he went so far as to whip his grown ass only to lose him to the streets anyway

[Syn7]

imagine how the uncle feels. he went so far as to whip his grown ass only to lose him to the streets anyway

That's what you get for waiting till after the problem to deal with it. Clearly the uncle wasn't the best influence anyways. He may not have been in a gang, but he mos def had tough guy syndrome. One often leads to the other.

[hskwarrior]

That's what you get for waiting till after the problem to deal with it. Clearly the uncle wasn't the best influence anyways. He may not have been in a gang, but he mos def had tough guy syndrome. One often leads to the other.

nah bruh, that uncle is typical of the guys in the inner cities. i agree with what he did to his nephew and feel that kind of stuff needs to happen with all kids today and forever more. in the hood, you have to be tough. there's no choice bro. other than moving out. many who grew up in the hood have this type of aggressive attitude. my own father did the same stuff to me when i was a kid.

bring back the BELT

[Syn7]

nah bruh, that uncle is typical of the guys in the inner cities. i agree with what he did to his nephew and feel that kind of stuff needs to happen with all kids today and forever more. in the hood, you have to be tough. there's no choice bro. other than moving out. many who grew up in the hood have this type of aggressive attitude. my own father did the same stuff to me when i was a kid.

bring back the BELT

My point is that waiting till after there is a problem isnt a good way of going about it. If ur kid does wrong, you have already failed in some sense. I mean really wrong, not dumb learning wrong. Why did the kid not already have the tools to avoid the situation in the first place?

So now you are going to beat your failure out of them?

[hskwarrior]

My point is that waiting till after there is a problem isnt a good way of going about it. If ur kid does wrong, you have already failed in some sense. I mean really wrong, not dumb learning wrong. Why did the kid not already have the tools to avoid the situation in the first place?

growing up in the hood, it happens that way. the smart thugs grow up to get out of the hood while the dumb ones stay in. gang life, money, drugs, females, recognition, these are all things young impressionable men and women fall into when you're inner city. the thing that bothers me most is when the kids that get taken out of the hood they bring the hood into the new place.

[Kellen Bassette]

growing up in the hood, it happens that way. the smart thugs grow up to get out of the hood while the dumb ones stay in. gang life, money, drugs, females, recognition, these are all things young impressionable men and women fall into when you're inner city. the thing that bothers me most is when the kids that get taken out of the hood they bring the hood into the new place.

I think it's harder under those circumstances too. A lot of this stuff is a generational culture by now. That makes it that much harder to get out of the loop then someone who's surrounded by generations of folks who made the right moves. It's not impossible, but harder.

It's too bad he died...but at least his uncle tried in his way.

[Snipsky]

are these guys from shaolin do????

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f1f_1358641645

[Judge Pen]

are these guys from shaolin do????

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f1f_1358641645

Why would you think that?

[Syn7]

I think that's a lil much.

Everywhere has its crazies.

[Darthlawyer]

did your gay lover not tickle your pickle? is that why you're mad PIG? oink oink. mr dirty copper

I guess when the only thing someone has to be proud of is his "lineage" (i.e. only being able to be proud of knowing someone who knew someone who knew kung fu)... This is the most intelligent post one can expect.

[Snipsky]

I guess when the only thing someone has to be proud of is his "lineage" (i.e. only being able to be proud of knowing someone who knew someone who knew kung fu)... This is the most intelligent post one can expect.
__________________

are you talking in your spooky SITH voice? are you part of the SITH COUNCIL? tell the truth, you have one of those cool toy light sabers don't you?

[hskwarrior]

are you talking in your spooky SITH voice? are you part of the SITH COUNCIL? tell the truth, you have one of those cool toy light sabers don't you?

now thats funny. i can see him or her in their black cape and painted face. talking in sith lingo. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. I appreciate who i am everytime i come to this forum hahahaha

wow, i can't believe the number of people from SD who're using terms from fantasy movies and tv shows. relating kung fu to Kwai Chang and Star Wars tells me alot about ya'll.

[Syn7]

I guess when the only thing someone has to be proud of is his "lineage" (i.e. only being able to be proud of knowing someone who knew someone who knew kung fu)... This is the most intelligent post one can expect.

Better than being proud of a fake lineage. Or if you agree that SD is full of misinformation and flat out lies, you have to admit you were taken. Not something I imagine a lawyer would like to admit. You proud? Or did you get swindled?

[hskwarrior]

Better than being proud of a fake lineage. Or if you agree that SD is full of misinformation and flat out lies, you have to admit you were taken. Not something I imagine a lawyer would like to admit. You proud? Or did you get swindled?

SD stands 4 Swindlin' Dudes. LOL

[Judge Pen]

Better than being proud of a fake lineage. Or if you agree that SD is full of misinformation and flat out lies, you have to admit you were taken. Not something I imagine a lawyer would like to admit. You proud? Or did you get swindled?

Darthlawyer's teacher is a good friend and a contemporary of mine. He split from SD as soon as he learned about the deposition and the lies and iis now refusing to teach any material that Sin The alleges that he fabricated and is seeking to better his own understanding of the material he has learned. The way I see it, he is doing it right and is making every effort to be honest with his students and not repeat the lies of the past.

[hskwarrior]

Darthlawyer's teacher is a good friend and a contemporary of mine. He split from SD as soon as he learned about the deposition and the lies and iis now refusing to teach any material that Sin The alleges that he fabricated and is seeking to better his own understanding of the material he has learned. The way I see it, he is doing it right and is making every effort to be honest with his students and not repeat the lies of the past.

are you part of his SITH COUNCIL too? :D

[Judge Pen]

are you part of his SITH COUNCIL too? :D

Nope. I don't actively train in SD anymore. I keep up some material that I find particularly applicable to my strengths and I go to the shooting range. I was just shedding a little light on some false assumptions.

[hskwarrior]

Nope. I don't actively train in SD anymore. I keep up some material that I find particularly applicable to my strengths and I go to the shooting range. I was just shedding a little light on some false assumptions.

i know what you were doing bro. i'm just teasing. may the force be with you

[Empty_Cup]

Nope. I don't actively train in SD anymore. I keep up some material that I find particularly applicable to my strengths and I go to the shooting range. I was just shedding a little light on some false assumptions.

I've heard several years ago EML taught a class/seminar that involved firearms. Did anybody attend and what did they think of the class?

[Judge Pen]

I've heard several years ago EML taught a class/seminar that involved firearms. Did anybody attend and what did they think of the class?

I didn't, but I have cross-trained with some local martial artists that worked on concealed carry defense in protecting your gun and creating space to allow it to be drawn etc. Pretty basic stuff, but something you should think about if you are going to carry.

[Syn7]

Nope. I don't actively train in SD anymore. I keep up some material that I find particularly applicable to my strengths and I go to the shooting range. I was just shedding a little light on some false assumptions.

And which false assumption would that be? The teacher is a victim. He got straight up played. In my world that in itself is somewhat disgraceful. Basically, IMO, if you get hustled you got yours.


When I was a kid I went to a place like SD. It took me like 2 weeks to figure out it was bull****. And I was like 14. I just don't have any patience for people that allow themselves to be taken like that. The truly sad part is that so many didn't even learn the very obvious lesson in all that.

[Judge Pen]

And which false assumption would that be? The teacher is a victim. He got straight up played. In my world that in itself is somewhat disgraceful. Basically, IMO, if you get hustled you got yours.


When I was a kid I went to a place like SD. It took me like 2 weeks to figure out it was bull****. And I was like 14. I just don't have any patience for people that allow themselves to be taken like that. The truly sad part is that so many didn't even learn the very obvious lesson in all that.

You guys assumed that he was either proud of his fake lineage or that he didn't want to admit he had been taken. Both of those assumptions are false. This guy isn't a long-term student. He went with a good teacher that split from SD when he learned that he was lied to. His teacher was up front that things he learned was untruthful and he told his class that. This guy chose to still train (probably because of the integrity of his teacher). That is admirable: The easy thing would have been to stick his head in the sand, not risk students, and tow the party line. But this guy chose to be honest.

I'm glad that you didn't fall prey to a bad school, but your in Vancover, right? Lots of options up there. Where SD is popular there are not many good options to choose from. As I've said before, my first teacher was the best martial arts option I had easily. He didn't talk about lineage or history and I didn't care about it. We just trained hard. I've since learned that not all SD schools were that way, but my experience was different.

[Syn7]

You guys assumed that he was either proud of his fake lineage or that he didn't want to admit he had been taken. Both of those assumptions are false. This guy isn't a long-term student. He went with a good teacher that split from SD when he learned that he was lied to. His teacher was up front that things he learned was untruthful and he told his class that. This guy chose to still train (probably because of the integrity of his teacher). That is admirable: The easy thing would have been to stick his head in the sand, not risk students, and tow the party line. But this guy chose to be honest.

I'm glad that you didn't fall prey to a bad school, but your in Vancover, right? Lots of options up there. Where SD is popular there are not many good options to choose from. As I've said before, my first teacher was the best martial arts option I had easily. He didn't talk about lineage or history and I didn't care about it. We just trained hard. I've since learned that not all SD schools were that way, but my experience was different.

"...law school, the great American baby-sitter for directionless postgrads.”
― John Grisham, The Runaway Jury

mmmm. Let's play lawyer!

And for the record JP, I think you are an okay guy so I will try to make my comments more general, mmkay. But I will hjave to single out this teacher to make my point. I'm sure he's a nice guy, this isn't about being nice tho.

I will start with where I live and the school I went to. So yes, Vancouver does have a large Chinese community and one of the largest Chinatowns in N. America. From a tcma perspective, we are pretty lucky. But when I went to the crap school, I didn't know anything about TCMA's really and I had not scouted any other schools. It had kung fu in the title, I was naive, I enrolled. Two weeks later, I was a lot less naive. I didn't do any external research. All my choices were completely unrelated to the TCMA environment I was barely even aware of. Had I known I had more options, I may have chose differently. But I didn't. So your argument doesn't really fly. How is me being 14 and knowing very VERY little about CMA's all that different from somebody in Kentucky 40 years ago? I think I can effectively argue that the only major difference was in the quality of critical thinking on the part of the people involved. I understand that may be somewhat offensive, but I can't really sugarcoat that very much more than I just did.

Now you can argue I made one assumption. That is that this guy was a student at his teachers school before they broke off from SD. Aside from that, I made no assumptions. Let's talk about his teacher. He may be a great guy, and honest. And don't get me wrong here, that's cool and I'm glad he took a stand. Although I think it's silly to stop training something that works regardless of who made it up. Now personally I am not very impressed by any SD I see really. But let's assume that much of it is effective for the sake of this argument. Not teaching somethinhg that works simply because of the cloud around it is kind of silly. You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. That's a very emotional response. Now let me be clear, I do not see evidence of effectiveness, but assuming it is, dropping it like that is just silly.

I never said he was proud of a fake lineage. What I said is he is either proud of a fake lineage OR he got played. Admission or not, it's one or the other. He either played ball or he was hoodwinked. Just because he took what he saw as the high road afterwards doesn't change the fact that he got played. And IMO that puts his intelligence and/or his ability to assess something critically into question. QUESTION, I'm not saying he's an idiot. I'm just saying he may be. Either way, he got hustled. He spent time and money to learn something he just threw away later. You can label that anyway you want. But hustled is the best word for it. Admitting this is irrelevant, it happened and it begs a few questions.

Now, like I said before, that's great that he took some sort of a stand, but it doesn't change what happened. And I have to seriously question ANYONE that could be hustled like that. So yeah, maybe I grew up in an environment where knowing these things kept your head above water, but I don't see why anyone with a somewhat objective thought can't figure this stuff out on their own. I'm not some gifted genius, but it wasn't luck either. It was a hard honest look after spotting so many red flags. Why did it take so long for the red flags in SD to become public? It's this sort of complicity that blows me away. Like you alluded to, many simply tow the line for the sake of taking the path of least resistance and avoiding the big scary boogeyman we call change. Kinda like your congress. Even if you go in with a clear mind and a righteous attitude, that stuff will drag you down if you don't challenge it. I would rather a one term honest guy than a ten term assimilated used to be good guy who justifies his garbage because they can't believe they are wrong or at fault because in their own minds they are good nice people. And socially, maybe they are. I feel the same way about journalism, and SD fits into that dynamic pretty well, IMO.

[hskwarrior]

mmmm. Let's play lawyer!

LMAOOOOOOO.......someone's hungry. GET EM LAWYER EATER......GET EM :p

[Syn7]

LMAOOOOOOO.......someone's hungry. GET EM LAWYER EATER......GET EM :p

It's not really about "winning" for me. I just enjoy the challenge of arguing with people who do it for a living. I don't expect to actually sway anyone who has already made up their mind.

[Old Noob]

OK so I don't really wanna play the ****ing game today. I just have a couple questions.
I didn't know you were a police. Can I ask you a question I ask whenever I get the chance. Yes? Why thank you.

And please, honest questions that simply require honest answers. You can PM the answers if you would rather do it that way.

So, it's two questions really. 1, how do you reconcile with having to give out fines and/or press charges for things you yourself have done?

2, Have you ever seen another officer cross the line and you did NOT do anything about it? This is my main question, I find I only get an honest answer about 25% of the time. Usually I just get a straight denial that it even happens, but as it's in person and I study behaviour, it's really easy to see when they are lying. It won't be so easy online, but I would appreciate some honesty none the less.

Thanx for your time.

I'm actually not a police but a prosecutor. I was an Army JAG for a long time and now do international violent crime prosectutions for DOJ. Luckily, I haven't spent a lot of time doing minor infractions and have never prosecuted a criminal defendant for something that I've done myself. My focus has been on violent crime and the vast majority of my prosecutions have been for homicides or sex crimes. I've prosecuted some drug cases but not many and, since I don't do drugs, I haven't had to feel any hypocracy about prosecuting them; though I do have mixed feelings about legalization of some drugs.

As for officers - and soldiers - who've gone too far, I've prosecuted them too.

Don't know if this answers your question or not.

[Syn7]

Yup, answers mt question. Thanx for taking the time.

[Old Noob]

Yup, answers mt question. Thanx for taking the time.

No worries. I'm so thick that I didn't even get the police references that Frank was making. I was so busy trolling him that I let it roll right past. His dox job of me must have been only moderately successful.

[Syn7]

No worries. I'm so thick that I didn't even get the police references that Frank was making. I was so busy trolling him that I let it roll right past. His dox job of me must have been only moderately successful.

Yeah. I have mixed feelings about law enforcement and authority in general. First, lemme explain how I think. I don't follow rules because they are rules, I follow them when I believe in them. There are laws I do break and don't really care about the fact that they are illegal beyond getting caught. As you probably have guessed by now, one of those laws is soft drugs. Ganja specifically. No law is gonna turn me off. If I stop it will be because I want to. And as I age, I find I smoke less even tho I have more money which means more access.

Anyways, out of the people I grew up with, 7 are police officers and there are a handful of corrections and a couple that went to work for the crown as an attorney. Out of the seven police, 2 are women. One is cool, the other is a bitter lil twat and always has been. Of the four males, one is cool. Really nice guy. The rest are those douchebag types that made themselves feel better by picking on smaller people who never fought back. I find that the job attracts these types like flies on ****. When I ask those two questions to them, they take major offense, throw up a wall and then get aggressive for questioning their authority (said in Cartman voice authoritie!). So whenever I get to talk to a reasonable police I ask these question that I find quite valid. Who doesn't speed sometimes? Or smoke a joint, or whatever. So it amazes me that people can have that duality and not see the obvious problem. This leads to above the law thinking. As a prosecutor I know you know what I mean. But the bigger issue is the good cops who don't tear down the bad ones. It's a brotherhood and fitting in seems to be very important to them. I see cops roll their eyes when an overaggressive partner is doing wrong, but they never speak up and certainly don't go against them in any sort of inquiry unless what they did was REALLY bad. Based on the good/apathetic/bad ratio I have come up with from my own experiences and talking to others, I find it very unlikely that any cop who isn't green hasn't seen an officer get outta line and not do anything about it.


So, I'm not just hating, I have my reasons and as a youth I had more than enough experience with the system to know what it's all about and who's who and what happens.

In my city a serial killer murdered 50 women and because of police arrogance and an inability to accept outside help along with a significant male female relations problem in the police cultrure here led to many women being murdered when they clearly had the evidence and info to stop it years sooner. When the inquiry came they automatically closed rank and denied any wrongdoing whatsoever and held tight. Then the real damaging evidence came out that made them all look bad and they turned on eachother like wolves. It was really sad to watch the selfishness when the topic was fifty murdered marginalized, mostly non white, women. Not to mention the fact that like three in custody mysterious deaths and two very public overreacting police causing death happened around the same time. One was a taser thing, the other was an unarmed suspect on the ground being shot in the back of the head. Vancouver isn't unique and as I age and pay more attention with more critical eyes, less emotional, I'm really starting to see just how broken and straight up ****ed up the police culture really is. Between the attitude and the job, half of these guys can't even keep their family together let alone manage citizens without being too hard handed. Like striking citizens for filming arrests. They take it personally and lash out. It's sad.

Now this isn't to say there isn't a minority of good cops, I just wish they would man up and fight the good fight for a change. How does your perspective as a prosecutor jive with my perspective as a civilian? I see a lot more aggression than is warranted when protect and serve is your motto. I see a lot of protecting and serving egos. How bout prosecutors? It's a position of power. You see many getting outta line, juking stats etc? Bill Peterson is the perfect example of a man who should not be allowed to work as a prosecutor.

[OldandUsed]

@Syn7:

I am a retired police officer. I have seen my fair share of good and bad officers. Yes, I was one of those that made a face when a fellow officer did something that was out of line. Depending on the situation, it is not advisable to interfere at the time of the incident when suspects are present. It is a safety factor. If it was a minor transgression, I addressed it with the officer on the side after everything was secure. If it was a major issue, I reported it to the shift supervisor and let the system do its job. Occaisionally, it required me putting myself between the suspect and the other officer and taking over the action officer role instead of cover officer.

If you remember that an officer is always outnumbered on the street and the officer that comes to back him up may be one of the officers that has issues, you can see why officers close ranks and cover each other to outsiders. What the public does not always see is the disciplinary actions taken within the agency against officers that are violators.

My primary job was serving warrants and bringing in violent offenders. Of course, when I was on the street I tried to get to one call or service site as quickly as possible because there was always a backlog and I was expected to get several taken care of each shift. I rarely followed the speed limit and did not always engage my emergency equipment. I am sure it appeared I was just joy-riding. When I was off-duty, a lot of times I drove faster than the posted speed limit. Guess what? The only traffic citations I issued for speeding were for those knuckleheads that were weaving in and out of traffic without signals and following too close. In short, reckless driving and wanton endangerment.

If you: were not endangering or hurting anyone; did not destroy any property; and acted like you had some sense when I pulled you over; I told you why I pulled you over and asked you to clean up your act and let you go with a warning. I did not do any paperwork for simple possession, either. I would take you to the storm drain and make you dispose of the weed and then turn you loose. Same with alcohol, unless you failed the field sobriety test. I do not and have never smoked. So, I did not smoke pot, either. Not all officers are jerks, buddy.

[Old Noob]

How does your perspective as a prosecutor jive with my perspective as a civilian? I see a lot more aggression than is warranted when protect and serve is your motto. I see a lot of protecting and serving egos. How bout prosecutors? It's a position of power. You see many getting outta line, juking stats etc?

Perspective is an interesting thing. Because I cut my teeth as a prosecutor in the military, I never did a stint in a local prosecutors office (except for a brief internship in law school). Consequently, I didn't ever see how high-volume/low-end misdemeanor level crimes were handled systemically. I think that's relevant to the conversation because that's where I believe that both the abuse and the stat-jiggering would be most prevalent. Higher volume and lower importance = less oversight on the operaters and line prosecutors = more chances for those with bad intentions to abuse their positions.

I've been mostly lucky. I went to law school because I wanted to prosecute violent crime; people who put their hands on others for no reason - when we were young both my brother and I were, on separate occasions, jumped by a large number of guys and took some significant damage. I've mostly gotten to do those types of cases, though violent crimes against women became the vast majority of my practice. Prosecuting violent offenders decomplicates the situation. I rarely find myself feeling sympathy towards those defendants.

On the issue of law enforcement and prosecutorial abuse, I've also been lucky. Because I haven't been inovolved in high volume policing and prosecution, I haven't been exposed to much in the way of police misconduct. I have seen my share of soldier misconduct pertaining to detainees and that is an incredibly complex situation that involves elements that are similar to LE misconduct and elements that are completely removed; so much so that they aren't really comparable to each other. Nonetheless, when I believed that soldiers made calls that crossed the line regarding treatment of detainees, I've prosecuted them and I was never hindered in that activity by any bueraucratic barriers to doing that. Those have been the jury cases that I've lost though; war is such a foggy thing that it gets really hard to get a guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in those circumstances.

Since I've left the Army, I've seen a whole different problem. Becuase I do international violent crime now and because of our political and budget problems, I have problems getting the the resources necessary to pursue our cases the way that they could be pursued in a perfect world. Anyway, I'm rambling. The bottom line is that I'm a systems guy; I want to believe in the system. In order to do that, I have to be willing to go after guys that behave in ways that undermine the dignity of that system. I'm not for criminaly prosecuting developmental mistakes but I'd totally go after dirty cops or prosecutors. You have to to protect the system.

And by system, I mean the justice system and not the laws themselves. I, like you, don't have uniform regard for all laws.

[OldandUsed]

@OldNoob.....Bravo!

[Syn7]

Not all officers are jerks.

Not all, but far too many. And it seems wimpy go with the flow and jerk outnumbers good. BTW, I hate it when people call me buddy.:p Go listen to a lil De La Soul and you may change your mind as to what the word actually means to some people.

I totally understand the need to provide a unified front when out on the streets. Granted I find that abused quite often, but I get the need to not undermine an officer in public from a personal safety angle. But you have to understand that the message this sends is quite damaging and it's a failure if anyone steps out of line in the first place. As a law enforcement officier you need to set the standard for proper behaviour and respect for the rights of others. Now I also know for a fact that most LEGIT complaints against police go nowhere. So I find it hard to believe there is THAT much reprimanding behind closed doors. Again, I know police officers who do wrong. The last one I remember clearly beat the living **** out of a secured prisoner. HE got a transfer. And I live in a very liberal city, I don't even want to think what it's like in some backwater.

I don't need to post the 40 million police abuse youtube vids because I know you guys know. If you would stand up for a citizen when, say, one of your teammates aggressively goes after somebody filming an arrest and unlawfully attempts to erase or take that footage. If you took a stand right there and said NO, you would do more for police PR than all the millions of dollars that is spent on "image".

Tolerating poor behaviour in those whose job it is to set an example just because you want your own ass covered is a serious problem. I get it, but something needs to give here. It's just getting worse. See that's where perspective comes in. And I'm sorry, but the average citizen you serve has a perspective that is more important than yours. If that scares people, don't be a cop. It's not a military organization. In fact I think all cops should have atleast two years of psych, but that's just me. But try to understand MY perspective. I don't respect the brotherhood unconditionally and when I see some of these guys being complete jerks day after day and never getting touched for it, it bothers me. Not to mention all the situations that are created because of this high handedness. I can't even tell you how many times I've seen a guy got throttled by cops when had they not been such *******s, he wouldn't have felt the need to lash out in the first place. This is especially true with escalation in a group mentality, on both sides. And yes, I understand it's complicated. But when you throw on riot gear and surround peaceful protesters, it's your aggressive actions that ultimately encourages the poor behaviour in so so many scenarios. Not all, but often enough to be a real problem.

I've actually been caught in a riot before and I can appreciate how the cops felt. Some were good, some were bad. But the overall strategy was destructive and plain wrong. I remember being forced into an alley only to find a moving blockade at the other end with tear gas flying at us from both ends, nowhere to go yet the whole time they are saying disperse. At that point I just started helping some of the more defenseless people find a way out. 75% of the people in that alley just wanted to go home. It was families and stuff. So wrong. Was there an inquiry? There was a fake one used for more funding. Not one officer or incident commander lost their job over that. When dealing with citizens from a position of power like this, there is no room for mistake and there needs to be better screening and greater consequences for misconduct. I see the same guys doing the same things over and over even when I know they are being called out by civilians. Nothing happens.


For the record, I don't hate policing and I do understand and respect the idea. My problem lays in how the job is changing and what it's becoming. Not that there haven't always been problems, but now it's becoming more of an US vs Them systemic thing than a "oh we have the odd d-bag here" kinda thing. Police aren't soldiers, and they live with and love civilians themselves. I find the duality fascinating. That ability to separate how you feel with how you act in regards to what's fair and what isn't.
Also, if you are not a traffic cop, then I believe you when you say you don't write many tickets. But when writing tickets and searching cars is your day, that doesn't tend to be the case.


Look, I realize their are some good guys there, but that isn't a reason to NOT speak out against the injustice perpetrated by police. If you want to not be perceived negatively, then clean up your back yard.
I refuse to have my liberties compromised by anyone. PERIOD.


As for the speeding thing, the excuses don't fly if when I catch up I see you in line at the local coffee shop. When I see a cop speed I assume he has a purpose. It's when I all to often see that there is not a good reason that I take note and remember and associate the behaviour with words like UNACCEPTABLE.

rant over. Thanx for your time. And I do appreciate the honesty and the fact that you responded intelligently at all. I find all too often I get slogans are aggressive defensiveness. As if I am questioning their personal integrity. And that's not the case. I observe, form hypothesis and I go out and talk about it. IMO this is how peaceful change occurs. Thanx. :)


As far as prosecutors go, I agree with the comment on the lower level cases. I do have to point out all the recent releases from DNA evidence tho. How many death row inmates have been released now? I can totally see why they don't test samples for cases where the execution has already taken place. That could be disastrous for law and order. But I do believe that if they are willing to lie and/or cheat in order to look better at lower levels, they are likely to be ****s when they advance as well. Especially the ones with less oversight. It's not like they get a promotion then automatically admit to themselves that they are ****s and change their step. If anything they slow down because they know more people are watching.

[Old Noob]

As far as prosecutors go, I agree with the comment on the lower level cases. I do have to point out all the recent releases from DNA evidence tho. How many death row inmates have been released now? I can totally see why they don't test samples for cases where the execution has already taken place. That could be disastrous for law and order. But I do believe that if they are willing to lie and/or cheat in order to look better at lower levels, they are likely to be ****s when they advance as well. Especially the ones with less oversight. It's not like they get a promotion then automatically admit to themselves that they are ****s and change their step. If anything they slow down because they know more people are watching.

It's a fair point. I was reading an article today and it noted, anecdotally, that a large number of murder convictions that were later overturned on DNA grounds were convictions originally based on informant testimony. Informant testimony is inherently problematic because the informant gets rewarded for helping the government. If the cops don't or can't verify information provided by the informant independently, the informant then has license to lie and no disinsentive to do so. Luckily for everyone, the advances in forensic science have at least reduced the proportion of prosecutions that rely solely on informant testimony or even on eyewitness identification, which can also be problematic sometimes. Also, I agree that if **** rises, it doesn't cease to be ****. I just hope that most of the **** stays stationary.

[Snipsky]

Did tattooed punk really make himself into a huge liar man? i keep coming back to check and see if he was a man of his word. and nothin at all. what a waste of time

[Old Noob]

Did tattooed punk really make himself into a huge liar man? i keep coming back to check and see if he was a man of his word. and nothin at all. what a waste of time

He didn't waste your time coming back here; you did. Then you wasted more time typing up your snipsky comment. If you really didn't want to waste your time, I imagine that you wouldn't have come here looking for something you knew wouldn't be here and you certainly wouldn't have taken the time to comment. You're not wasting your time; you're trolling and you're enjoying it. So stop complaining about conditions of your own making.

[Snipsky]

He didn't waste your time coming back here; you did. Then you wasted more time typing up your snipsky comment. If you really didn't want to waste your time, I imagine that you wouldn't have come here looking for something you knew wouldn't be here and you certainly wouldn't have taken the time to comment. You're not wasting your time; you're trolling and you're enjoying it. So stop complaining about conditions of your own making.
Reply With Quote

i love the fact that Tattooed Spunk stuck his foot into mouth to tasted his own toe cheese.

[hskwarrior]

Did tattooed punk really make himself into a huge liar man? i keep coming back to check and see if he was a man of his word. and nothin at all. what a waste of time

Personally, i gave up on that fool. I was hoping he wasn't lying, because i would love to know more of the history of OUR form. But i knew that lying mudda chukka had nothing. I stand my ground cause i know what i'm talking about. and i knew his lying ass would fail at whatever he was doing. funny thing is, now whatever students he has now knows he's a fake fuk.

for me, this thread will stand in infamy for the rest of the world to see. In the end, the specific 5 animal form in question belongs to HUNG SING USA and Sin The, founder of Shaolin Do boosted our form from Doc Fai Wong's book. People will also know that certain so called teachers under the SD umbrella participated in the defense of Sin The's un-teacher like actions of lying to his family.

A word to the wise: Don't learn martial arts from a book. Don't try to learn gung fu from video's unless you already know the system. you cannot learn gung fu from the earth or from TV shows like "KUNG FU" or movies like KUNG FU PANDA. Kwai Chang Kane is just a TV character. When students from a specific style tells you you are practicing it all wrong, question your teachers about it. Especially when all you know is in question from ALL styles claimed.

On that note, I'm out. I have more important things to do than busta bash all day. let it be known, i NEVER show my skills on video because of exact things perpetrated by SD. so I'll be sucka duckin for the time being.

[Syn7]

Yeah, I'm sure TM will keep talking, but I doubt he'll be doing any showing. It's too bad. I was hoping for some convoluted mystery. I'd say it's disappointing, but the truth of it is that, benefit of doubt or not, nobody really expected him to come through. That book will be on back order forever. :p

[Orion Paximus]

A word to the wise: Don't learn martial arts from a book. Don't try to learn gung fu from video's unless you already know the system. you cannot learn gung fu from the earth or from TV shows like "KUNG FU" or movies like KUNG FU PANDA. Kwai Chang Kane is just a TV character. When students from a specific style tells you you are practicing it all wrong, question your teachers about it. Especially when all you know is in question from ALL styles claimed.


This is, perhaps, hsk's least annoying post of all time and actually makes sense. It would be super awesome if the thread could just end with it and we could all just move on with our lives.

[kwaichang]

Well hope all is well, and I love seeing all are happy , and enjoying Life. Peace to all My Shaolin Brothers and MA friends. I am so happy we got all this resolved. KC

[hskwarrior]

Well hope all is well, and I love seeing all are happy , and enjoying Life. Peace to all My Shaolin Brothers and MA friends. I am so happy we got all this resolved. KC

Curious. wheres that form you were gonna post up?

[Syn7]

Well hope all is well, and I love seeing all are happy , and enjoying Life. Peace to all My Shaolin Brothers and MA friends. I am so happy we got all this resolved. KC

Curious, what was resolved?


For the record, you don't do Shaolin.

[Empty_Cup]

Curious, what was resolved?


For the record, you don't do Shaolin.

Trollers gonna troll...:rolleyes:

[Syn7]

Trollers gonna troll...:rolleyes:

And haters gonna hate.



http://wtfhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/haters-gonna-hate-eagle.jpg



God forbid the truth get in the way. :rolleyes:

[Empty_Cup]

And haters gonna hate.



http://wtfhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/haters-gonna-hate-eagle.jpg



God forbid the truth get in the way. :rolleyes:

Hey most folks here are looking for the truth...don't act like you're alone in that endeavor.

[Syn7]

Then admit the obvious. SD has ZERO verifiable connection to any Shaolin Temple. I don't call Bak Mei shaolin just coz there is a monk in it's probably distorted origin myth.

I'm not trolling exclusively. I do find this whole syndrome fascinating. In all it's manifestations. I'm only really a **** to TM and KC. One a liar, the other the brain power of a gnat.

Just cause I'm argumentative with others doesn't mean I dislike them. And just because I disagree with SD and show it in a thread called "is SD for real?" does not make me a troll. Although I freely admit to purposely baiting a small minority I consider retarded.

Troll does not = Anyone who does something you don't like.

[Old Man]

Then admit the obvious. SD has ZERO verifiable connection to any Shaolin Temple. I don't call Bak Mei shaolin just coz there is a monk in it's probably distorted origin myth.

I'm not trolling exclusively. I do find this whole syndrome fascinating. In all it's manifestations. I'm only really a **** to TM and KC. One a liar, the other the brain power of a gnat.

Just cause I'm argumentative with others doesn't mean I dislike them. And just because I disagree with SD and show it in a thread called "is SD for real?" does not make me a troll. Although I freely admit to purposely baiting a small minority I consider retarded.

Troll does not = Anyone who does something you don't like.


connection exist. i tell you connection exist strong.

[Syn7]

connection exist. i tell you connection exist strong.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Give me verifiable evidence. If you can't do that, you have nothing but hearsay and stories. All of which mean sweet **** all as far as objectivity is concerned. Show me!

[pazman]

connection exist. i tell you connection exist strong.

Hey guys, thread is over. SHAOLIN DO IS FO' REAL!

[hskwarrior]

connection exist. i tell you connection exist strong.

no one is convinced of this at all.

[kwaichang]

Hey Syn how u doin bro , from one Gnat to another. Hope you are well and have a good week end. KC

[Syn7]

Ah, kill em with kindness.


All is good. Thanx.

[Snipsky]

Kwaichang......are you going to answer HSK?

I'm curious to the video you mentioned you would post up if HSK wouldn't clown it too much. Or were you just being like Tattooed Monk? we all know he's a fraud and a liar, he proved this himself.

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/312390_407179386039556_772680176_n.jpg

[Orion Paximus]

If it were up to me, I'd make Yoga pants required attire for women in MA... of course then I'd end up in the "busted MA" thread and on the 6 o'clock news......

[hskwarrior]

If it were up to me, I'd make Yoga pants required attire for women in MA... of course then I'd end up in the "busted MA" thread and on the 6 o'clock news......

lol :D .............

[hskwarrior]

Kwaichang......are you going to answer HSK?

I'm curious to the video you mentioned you would post up if HSK wouldn't clown it too much. Or were you just being like Tattooed Monk? we all know he's a fraud and a liar, he proved this himself.

I'm curious about this too man? whats the hold up? either you're not happy with your performance or were you just bullsh1tting us?

[Syn7]

I'm not going to comment on KC's skills till I actually see them. A few personal accounts mean nothing to me. That being said, I think in this case it's more of a he couldn't be bothered thing. Unlike TM, KC made no grand promises, never locked himself in to a date, never claimed to have amazing evidence that would prove any significant points. I honestly believe he just isn't computer savvy and doesn't care enough to bother.

It's not hard to take a video, to convert it, to upload it and link it. I just don't think he really knows how to do all that well enough, if at all, for it to be a task worthy of his attention in his mind.

[Orion Paximus]

i think, from what I'm seeing out there IRL, in a few years there will be very few schools that call themselves "SD" or openly affiliate with the remaining SD crowd and instead they'll adopt some Chinese style uniforms and flower up their system in an attempt to seem more Chinese based. I think this latest controversy is having a slow burn effect but **** is burning none the less.

[Syn7]

i think, from what I'm seeing out there IRL, in a few years there will be very few schools that call themselves "SD" or openly affiliate with the remaining SD crowd and instead they'll adopt some Chinese style uniforms and flower up their system in an attempt to seem more Chinese based. I think this latest controversy is having a slow burn effect but **** is burning none the less.

Then they will be hated on for being LARPing flower dancers. At least they will have a ton of company in their new category.

[Orion Paximus]

haha well, I mean "larping" was already on the table so I don't think they'll worry too much. It's a shame, though, that they aren't actively trying to figure out what their stuff is and then rebranding it with whatever/wherever it came from

[Syn7]

How bout Indonesian-American Martial arts with a liberal smattering of mish mash from various other styles to fill the demand gap they clearly have/had.

[hskwarrior]

Unlike TM

i don't believe i've ever seen a greater EPIC FAIL than what that wannabe tried. thats going down in the history books. what a sucka.

[Syn7]

agreed....!!!

[Lucas]

I heard shaolin do is not for real.

[hskwarrior]

I heard shaolin do is not for real.
__________________

oh yeah? what makes you say that?:confused::confused::confused:;)

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374838_362255290532952_1595769524_n.jpg

[Syn7]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374838_362255290532952_1595769524_n.jpg

Hmmmm. Tough call.

****it.... Who's first?


:p

[kwaichang]

I'm curious about this too man? whats the hold up? either you're not happy with your performance or were you just bullsh1tting us?

Hey will upload on the down load when I get time busy now. Sorry KC

[Old Noob]

i think, from what I'm seeing out there IRL, in a few years there will be very few schools that call themselves "SD" or openly affiliate with the remaining SD crowd and instead they'll adopt some Chinese style uniforms and flower up their system in an attempt to seem more Chinese based. I think this latest controversy is having a slow burn effect but **** is burning none the less.

I'd bet against this. Not because I think Sin The is not a liar. He is. I just don't think that the system will bog down because of it. Most of the schools that are splitting were already calling themselves Chinese Shaolin Centers or Shaolin Tao schools any way; the Georgia and Tennessee contingents were already wearing Sams instead of gis. The SD core is Kentucky/Ohio/Texas and that core has already bought Bill Leonard's BS explanation for the lawsuit and moved on.

Frankly, I'd hate it if SD guys changed the schools' names, started wearing SAMs and started flowering up the moves (the Colorado contingent already tried flowering the moves and they've got Jake Mace to show for it). I just wish they'd come clean about the origins and call the style what it actually is. I don't have any qualms with the non-stolen material.

But such is life. SD will still be around in its current form years in the future. After all, pro football players are willing to spend money on holographic stickers that divert cell phone waves and negatively charged water. That's way kookier than the SD origin story. America is a country full of undereducated consumers. That's why we love zombie movies.

[kwaichang]

I'm curious about this too man? whats the hold up? either you're not happy with your performance or were you just bullsh1tting us?

I am never "Happy" with my performance, but at times Im OK with it. KC

[MasterKiller]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/374838_362255290532952_1595769524_n.jpg

3, 4, 2, 5, 1

[hskwarrior]

3, 4, 2, 5, 1

in that order

[MasterKiller]

in that order

*fist bump*

[MasterKiller]

Shaolin-Do porn:

http://clouddragon.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/hairy-woman.jpg

[bodhi warrior]

I just watched "the black kung fu experience" on PBS. It offered some good insight. But there was one part that caught my attention. One of the guys was looking for a martial arts school when he was younger. He found a school named Lin's karate. He said back in the '60's no one knew what kung fu was. Same thing Sin The' did. Lol

[hskwarrior]

I just watched "the black kung fu experience" on PBS. It offered some good insight. But there was one part that caught my attention. One of the guys was looking for a martial arts school when he was younger. He found a school named Lin's karate. He said back in the '60's no one knew what kung fu was. Same thing Sin The' did. Lol

what sin the didn't realize was kung fu was already in america decades before he or even bruce lee showed up on the scene.

[Empty_Cup]

I just watched "the black kung fu experience" on PBS. It offered some good insight. But there was one part that caught my attention. One of the guys was looking for a martial arts school when he was younger. He found a school named Lin's karate. He said back in the '60's no one knew what kung fu was. Same thing Sin The' did. Lol

I'm sure like most things it's regional. The point is, if you're trying to explain something you use whatever language conveys the idea easiest.

[Kellen Bassette]

Shaolin-Do porn:

http://clouddragon.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/hairy-woman.jpg

It's been a while, but MK is back in the win category!

[hskwarrior]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22534345.jpg

[hskwarrior]

http://www.unruly.ca/unruly/wp-content/uploads/wookie-woman-by-0-4-on-deviantart-200x305.jpg

[hskwarrior]

http://headzthenovel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bisco-wookies1.jpg

[Laoshi]

/\ u guys are crazy LoL!

[One student]

I just watched "the black kung fu experience" on PBS. It offered some good insight. But there was one part that caught my attention. One of the guys was looking for a martial arts school when he was younger. He found a school named Lin's karate. He said back in the '60's no one knew what kung fu was. Same thing Sin The' did. Lol

The point being, it turned out to be a traditional kung fu style (Tiger Crane?) plus Tai Chi. The speaker, now a renowned teacher in Washington DC, specifically made the comment that in those days no one ever heard of kung fu so everyone called all martial arts "karate."

And later, the same guy renamed his school, "Shaolin Wu Shu."

[One student]

what sin the didn't realize was kung fu was already in america decades before he or even bruce lee showed up on the scene.

What makes you say he "didn't realize" what else was in America at the time -- other than what was obvious? I suspect you have no basis for saying that and are guessing. He may have "realized" or may not have, or more likely didn't care. He just started teaching what he was taught, or what he knew, or what he could, or what he chose to. And called it at first what everyone else was calling everything else -- to the extent anyone was public with it what they were doing at all: "karate."

I'm sure there were private, maybe even underground schools, teaching only to ethnic Chinese and in Chinese communities (at least that's what Bruce Lee's bio-pic said he got in trouble for breaching). And they may well have told their students it was Hung Gar, or CLF, or Shaolin, or who knows what. Maybe didn't call it anything. But I'll bet a lot of them didn't even use the term "kung fu" until much later. But I could be wrong.

[bodhi warrior]

The point being, it turned out to be a traditional kung fu style (Tiger Crane?) plus Tai Chi. The speaker, now a renowned teacher in Washington DC, specifically made the comment that in those days no one ever heard of kung fu so everyone called all martial arts "karate."

And later, the same guy renamed his school, "Shaolin Wu Shu."

Exactly! That's the point I was making. Sin and Hiang were ripped for calling their Chinese art karate.

[hskwarrior]

What makes you say he "didn't realize" what else was in America at the time -- other than what was obvious? I suspect you have no basis for saying that and are guessing.

because i'm telling you. thats how i know. you can suspect what you please. doesn't mean you're correct. I suspect you have zero basis to counter me with anything other than arrogant doubt. thats why you wear a gi while calling yourself kung fu.


or what he chose to

yeah, what he chose to. whether he made it up or learned it from some book. thats a GREAT SIFU right there. :rolleyes:


But I'll bet a lot of them didn't even use the term "kung fu" until much later. But I could be wrong.

how much are you willing to bet? we were THE first in America in regards to gung fu schools. WE know whats what and who's who. they all came after us. so, just accept it, you're wrong. :D

[Syn7]

I'm sure like most things it's regional. The point is, if you're trying to explain something you use whatever language conveys the idea easiest.

Witness the dumbing down and laziness of the uninformed!!!

I couldn't disagree more.

I can't even begin to imagine how ****ed we would be if everyone subscribed to such standards.

[MasterKiller]

Witness the dumbing down and laziness of the uninformed!!!

I couldn't disagree more.

I can't even begin to imagine how ****ed we would be if everyone subscribed to such standards.

Afterall, that's how they ended up with a form called Golden Cyborg...:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Golden Cyborg.

please please please tell me thats a fukkin joke. :eek:

[Syn7]

The real sad part is that the state of SD is so horrible that you just aren't sure. lol

[sean_stonehart]

It's their transliteration of

Jin Gang Dao Dui (Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar)

from their interpretation of Chenshi Xinjia Yi Lu

[Leto]

I guess Sin The didn't know how to translate Jin Gang, he thought it was like the shaolin bronze men from the movies or something, like a magical golem made of gold. He's got some other wacky translations, too, some from misreading characters and some just from not being very good at English, maybe.
It is a difficult thing to translate, especially for someone who isn't Buddhist, and also doesn't know English very well. If you walked up to some random Chinese people and showed them those two charaters (jin gang), I wonder what they'd say it was. maybe "hard as metal" or something.

[Judge Pen]

How bout Indonesian-American Martial arts with a liberal smattering of mish mash from various other styles to fill the demand gap they clearly have/had.

I can go with that.

[Judge Pen]

I'd bet against this. Not because I think Sin The is not a liar. He is. I just don't think that the system will bog down because of it. Most of the schools that are splitting were already calling themselves Chinese Shaolin Centers or Shaolin Tao schools any way; the Georgia and Tennessee contingents were already wearing Sams instead of gis. The SD core is Kentucky/Ohio/Texas and that core has already bought Bill Leonard's BS explanation for the lawsuit and moved on.

Frankly, I'd hate it if SD guys changed the schools' names, started wearing SAMs and started flowering up the moves (the Colorado contingent already tried flowering the moves and they've got Jake Mace to show for it). I just wish they'd come clean about the origins and call the style what it actually is. I don't have any qualms with the non-stolen material.

But such is life. SD will still be around in its current form years in the future. After all, pro football players are willing to spend money on holographic stickers that divert cell phone waves and negatively charged water. That's way kookier than the SD origin story. America is a country full of undereducated consumers. That's why we love zombie movies.

What's wrong with zombie movies? :D

[Old Noob]

What's wrong with zombie movies? :D

Nothing, but I love them both ironically and non-ironically. :)

[Old Noob]

For any SDers who still read the threadjacked thread, do any of you have the Pa Kua lyrics? If so, I'd be much obliged if you'd be willing to PM them to me. Gracias!

[sean_stonehart]

For any SDers who still read the threadjacked thread, do any of you have the Pa Kua lyrics? If so, I'd be much obliged if you'd be willing to PM them to me. Gracias!

I've got a copy of JRQ's book in PDF format I'll send if you want, complete with illustrations, descriptions, etc...

[JSE]

I've got a copy of JRQ's book in PDF format I'll send if you want, complete with illustrations, descriptions, etc...

I would like those as well if you don't mind. :D

[sean_stonehart]

I would like those as well if you don't mind. :D

Sure... just PM me a good email address & I'll zap it over.

[JSE]

PM sent. :D

[Old Noob]

Sure... just PM me a good email address & I'll zap it over.

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

Cool!! Glad you found it useful. As to the differences in differences on youtube between people, yep that happens. Everybody takes it & makes it their own. There will be differences on certain levels, but you can see that everybody is on the same page in large part.

[Judge Pen]

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

[Old Noob]

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

I think that's right. Like Sean said, the other guys are at least on the same page. To torture the pun, we're in the same book but in an entirely different chapter.

[kwaichang]

I have seen 3 different ways of the SD people stepping in the Pa Kua so what way do you speak of I know Master Mullins steps one way Master Leonard another and the Colorado people another ? Interesting. KC

[bodhi warrior]

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

There are numerous ways to step in bagua. Snake step, lion step, chicken step, etc. Everyone has their preferred method. Most people I've seen in SD seem to use a combination of lion and chicken. The problem I've seen with their method is that they bounce up and down when they step. I learned "classical pa kua" in '85 or '86 before sin the' became stiff from the weights and steroids. He seemed to move more relaxed.
I've seen just about every video, and read almost every book in English on this form. Everybody does it different. And that's ok. My bagua will not look like your bagua. You have to make it your own.

[sean_stonehart]

There are numerous ways to step in bagua. Snake step, lion step, chicken step, etc. Everyone has their preferred method. Most people I've seen in SD seem to use a combination of lion and chicken. The problem I've seen with their method is that they bounce up and down when they step. I learned "classical pa kua" in '85 or '86 before sin the' became stiff from the weights and steroids. He seemed to move more relaxed.
I've seen just about every video, and read almost every book in English on this form. Everybody does it different. And that's ok. My bagua will not look like your bagua. You have to make it your own.

While this is true, you should look like where you came from even after making it your own. Somebody should be able to look at you & discern where you learned.

[Syn7]

I can go with that.

If you were given the choice, what would you name SD? Aside from the ones that are taken by breakaways and the expelled. The latter is the curse of all MA's. Every decent teacher has a story of some dick who attended like 20 classes then started teaching. :rolleyes: It's unbelievable what some people will do and what some people will swallow. Those types are a special class of delusional where mere words will never be adequate.

Would you give SD an Indonesian name? Or something more appropriate to the style. There are MANY arts who trace their roots to Shaolin(true or not). MANY. Once so far removed, when other arts are blended, it becomes it's own thing. Don't you think calling it Shaolin do is a bit of a misnomer? I'm curious. You are somebody who is honest about the murkyness, but knows the system well enough to know what it is and isn't. I'm not really interested in SD the actual content. I'm interested in the lineage, just not enough to actually put in the work. :p I'm not here to criticize the work you put in. I get why you wouldn't want to start over at this point.

Bak Mei traces it's roots to Shaolin in a very unusual story. Much drama. Mastery, betrayal, murder. Some 007 type ****. I take it with a grain of salt. I think it's aptly named even though it's most likely different and there are two distinct branches I am familiar with and a couple others I'm not so familiar with. That's why I look at CLC as the founder of CLC Bak Mei. That way he's owning it and owning the fact that it is distinct from others in the fam. Dude was badass and much is well documented as it wasn't really that long ago. Lot's of pics and records. I have no need for the fairy tale version. It was a cool movie though. :D Good story. Fun for the lil ones.

[Old Noob]

If you were given the choice, what would you name SD?

This is a good question. Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with the name. Shaolin Do meaning, in the simplest of translations, the way of Shaolin isn't, in and of itself, deceiving. In fact, as an Indonesian hybrid, containing elements of TCMA, JMA, and indiginous martial arts, the Chinese word/Japanese word dichotomy captures it nicely. It's an hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking. If we could divorce the name from the phony history, it actually isn't that bad. In fact, if Sin The had called it Shaolin Do Indonesian Kung Fu or Shaolin Do Kun Tao (what a name!), and hadn't made up the BS temple stories, I'm not sure anyone would have groused. Do any Bruce Lee historians know whether people quibbled with the name of Jeet Kun Do?

[sean_stonehart]

Keep it simple...

The' Family martial arts. Drop all the trappings & stories & such...

[Snipsky]

This is a good question. Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with the name. Shaolin Do meaning, in the simplest of translations, the way of Shaolin isn't, in and of itself, deceiving. In fact, as an Indonesian hybrid, containing elements of TCMA, JMA, and indiginous martial arts, the Chinese word/Japanese word dichotomy captures it nicely. It's an hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking. If we could divorce the name from the phony history, it actually isn't that bad. In fact, if Sin The had called it Shaolin Do Indonesian Kung Fu or Shaolin Do Kun Tao (what a name!), and hadn't made up the BS temple stories, I'm not sure anyone would have groused. Do any Bruce Lee historians know whether people quibbled with the name of Jeet Kun Do?

I don't like the sounds of this here. it sounds like, "so what, we borrowed things from other styles, we stole others material, we say we're kung fu, and we wear karate uniforms. the public will never know the truth, so forget what they think. all that matters is what we think."

hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking? you are glorifying the thievery at the hands of Sin The.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3632&stc=1&d=1159546418

to be honest, it truly disgusts me to the highest level of disgustivity.

[Old Noob]

I don't like the sounds of this here. it sounds like, "so what, we borrowed things from other styles, we stole others material, we say we're kung fu, and we wear karate uniforms. the public will never know the truth, so forget what they think. all that matters is what we think."

hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking? you are glorifying the thievery at the hands of Sin The.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3632&stc=1&d=1159546418

to be honest, it truly disgusts me to the highest level of disgustivity.

I'm doing no such thing. I've been nothing but critical of the lying and the stories. As for the system - and I'm really not talking about the forms that were added later - I'm just saying that I wouldn't have had a problem with that system being called Shaolin Do. The name Shaolin Do doesn't, in and of itself, make any representation about the origins or the content of the system. Similarly, neither does Shorin Ryu karate or Jeet Kun Do. You can be disgusted all you want but I'm disgusted and humored, all at the same time, that the majority of your disgust derives from your lack of reading comprehension skills. I'll say it one more time: I think it is deplorable that Sin The made up origins for the material that is legitimately from his system and stole forms from outside his system and lied about the origins of those forms. That view is not inconsistent with the view that the name "Shaolin Do," when applied to a system of martial arts, is not necessarily misleading or bad.

But you can be disgusted as much as you want. In addition to the fact that you're disgusted about a position I didn't take, I just don't care about some internet stranger's level of disgust.

[hskwarrior]

The name Shaolin Do doesn't, in and of itself, make any representation about the origins or the content of the system.

in my opinion it does. Shaolin Do was the first school i heard with that name and IMMEDIATELY i said that sounds like a karate school wanting to be kung fu. low and behold. LOL.

[bodhi warrior]

I don't like the sounds of this here. it sounds like, "so what, we borrowed things from other styles, we stole others material, we say we're kung fu, and we wear karate uniforms. the public will never know the truth, so forget what they think. all that matters is what we think."

hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking? you are glorifying the thievery at the hands of Sin The.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3632&stc=1&d=1159546418

to be honest, it truly disgusts me to the highest level of disgustivity.

Why does it look like someone photoshopped " shaolin karate kung fu certificate" on the certificate?

[Judge Pen]

The' family kung tao.

[Judge Pen]

This guy lives close to me. What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcgp6G7fALc

[Judge Pen]

I was taught the "mud stepping technique" but I was taught that my foot would need to come up to tha calf right below the knee on everystep. From a visualzation perspective, such as trying to learn how to step from reading a description in a text, this type of step makes sense: "How would I step if I were stuck in mud?" But this is different than the mud stepping that I've seen from schools that focus on BaGua. I've seen videos of Sin The and Bill Leonard doing BaGua and while the height of the step varies slightly, there is still a distinct up and down character that is different than the non-SD people I've seen do JQR's version of BaGua. It was after alot of the criticisms came up that I started hearing about "chicken steps" or lion steps." I need to go back and review my notes, but are these "stepping techinques in SD's BaGua" part of SD's notes or is it a justification added later?

[bodhi warrior]

The' family kung tao.

I'd go with that.

[bodhi warrior]

The' family kung tao.


This guy lives close to me. What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcgp6G7fALc

I've been thinking about hitting one of his seminars.

[bodhi warrior]

I was taught the "mud stepping technique" but I was taught that my foot would need to come up to tha calf right below the knee on everystep. From a visualzation perspective, such as trying to learn how to step from reading a description in a text, this type of step makes sense: "How would I step if I were stuck in mud?" But this is different than the mud stepping that I've seen from schools that focus on BaGua. I've seen videos of Sin The and Bill Leonard doing BaGua and while the height of the step varies slightly, there is still a distinct up and down character that is different than the non-SD people I've seen do JQR's version of BaGua. It was after alot of the criticisms came up that I started hearing about "chicken steps" or lion steps." I need to go back and review my notes, but are these "stepping techinques in SD's BaGua" part of SD's notes or is it a justification added later?

The other stepping methods I mentioned come from Jerry Allen Johnson's book. Also the pa kua journal.

[Empty_Cup]

I was taught the "mud stepping technique" but I was taught that my foot would need to come up to tha calf right below the knee on everystep. From a visualzation perspective, such as trying to learn how to step from reading a description in a text, this type of step makes sense: "How would I step if I were stuck in mud?" But this is different than the mud stepping that I've seen from schools that focus on BaGua. I've seen videos of Sin The and Bill Leonard doing BaGua and while the height of the step varies slightly, there is still a distinct up and down character that is different than the non-SD people I've seen do JQR's version of BaGua. It was after alot of the criticisms came up that I started hearing about "chicken steps" or lion steps." I need to go back and review my notes, but are these "stepping techinques in SD's BaGua" part of SD's notes or is it a justification added later?

I always interpreted the "mud-stepping" to simply mean step with good balance - as though at any moment your other foot could become unbalanced and you need a firm root. Think of trying to step through mud and if you try to go too fast without first establishing rooting of the lead foot, you will fall over.

What I think realistically happened is that at some point GMS exaggerated the movements to emphasize one point or other and this got carved in stone as THE way to step from EML. That's only my speculation.

What I can say from personal experience is that at our school we do not focus so much on stepping high up and down. What I try to focus on personally is 1) stepping as though at any moment I could encounter resistance and need to maintain balance and 2) landing with a "hollow" foot - meaning my ball and heel land simultaneously.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This guy lives close to me. What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcgp6G7fALc

It's not particularly good. He might just be ****ty at demos (and still be a good MA). But then, MA's who do way more talking that man-to-man demonstration **** me off when it's time for a seminar.

MA is not something to be done in lecture format, IMO. And the guy punching him doesn't look like he could hit a brick wall if it was standing in front of him. Red flag, as far as your money goes.

Again, he might be an excellent MA, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What I think realistically happened is that at some point GMS exaggerated the movements to emphasize one point or other and this got carved in stone as THE way to step from EML. That's only my speculation..

Seems to happen quite a bit---and I think that in the larger picture it's tied to the learning format with greater student participation in teaching the basics. Student-teaching isn't a bad thing, as long as people are open-minded.

But then there's the closed-minded ones. The ones who learn a formula and swear by what someone else says, rather than testing it and tweaking the formula until it becomes fight-ready. (Graduate schools are guilty of the same weaknesses). I've been guilty of this every once-in-awhile, but I try to overcome it.

I've seen student-teachers teach chin-na escapes who cannot even lock a person in the proper chin-na attack for which the defense is engineered. LOL. And there are some people who pretend to teach defenses against a punch who cannot punch worth a **** (internal arts most guilty here--and not just SD). It's easy to block a punch when the guy punching doesn't know what he's doing. He'll leave his arm out there hanging, and he'll punch off target because he has no control.

About two weeks ago a very talented local master (non-SD) asked me to throw a punch at him during a class he was teaching (also non-SD) when I was prepping to close up the school for him after his seminar-class thingy that I wasn't a part of. He was trying to show his class something, and he called me onto the floor, and then he said: "Show me how you stand." I was like, WTF? Nobody strikes a stance--you play off your opponent. So I just shrugged, slightly crouched (jade ring-ish), and put up my dukes like I would if I were on the attack. And then I stood there. He then stepped forward and pushed my back hand forward, tapping my cheek. He kind of laughed and then stepped back, like "stop hitting yourself." And I thought---and if I threw my right hand the way I would if I was on the attack, do you think I'd give a **** if you tapped my cheek with my back hand. Or, if I decide to throw that back hand before you tap it, you're ****ed. He'd have left himself wide open for a killer punch. I was being polite, and I just quitely walked off the floor, but it's easy to play with a stationary target. That's the kind of BS that passes for wisdom sometimes, and it's easy for someone to then say: you should never stand like that.

LOL. No ****. You shouldn't just "stand" anywhere during a fight.

Sometimes I'll try to fix a student's basics and they'll say---that's not how I was taught it. I always reply the same: "Then tell me why it isn't working when I don't let you do it."

[Snipsky]

I always interpreted the "mud-stepping" to simply mean step with good balance - as though at any moment your other foot could become unbalanced and you need a firm root. Think of trying to step through mud and if you try to go too fast without first establishing rooting of the lead foot, you will fall over.

What I think realistically happened is that at some point GMS exaggerated the movements to emphasize one point or other and this got carved in stone as THE way to step from EML. That's only my speculation.

What I can say from personal experience is that at our school we do not focus so much on stepping high up and down. What I try to focus on personally is 1) stepping as though at any moment I could encounter resistance and need to maintain balance and 2) landing with a "hollow" foot - meaning my ball and heel land simultaneously.
Reply With Quote

that is where the problems lay. more interpretation than real training. signs of not really learning something correctly, most likely learned from books or video. i can see that clearly.

[Empty_Cup]

that is where the problems lay. more interpretation than real training. signs of not really learning something correctly, most likely learned from books or video. i can see that clearly.

Based on your posts, Snipsky, you see very little clearly. If you think I came to my interpretation of the form/stepping without guidance from my sifu then you're mistaken.

Try to understand what people are talking about before you snip a response. Or maybe you learned that skill from hsk...:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

that is where the problems lay. more interpretation than real training. signs of not really learning something correctly, most likely learned from books or video. i can see that clearly.

Footwork for pakua is tied to application. :eek: You can generally tell when you've done it right and wrong. I generally do it wrong. I've seen it done right.

[Snipsky]

Based on your posts, Snipsky, you see very little clearly. If you think I came to my interpretation of the form/stepping without guidance from my sifu then you're mistaken.

Try to understand what people are talking about before you snip a response. Or maybe you learned that skill from hsk...

its clear you don't know real kung fu unless you saw it in a book.

[RJ797]

I originally saw JRQ Ba Gua at a SD school. The stepping was not up and down. The foot lifted only a couple of inches off the ground. The explanation from the 64 Rules was the one about “Rise the Foot Rub the Muscle” if I remember correctly.

The important explanation for why to avoid lifting your foot way up was; each inch you pick the foot up requires an inch of travel back down. If the transfer of energy was about putting force into the ground then lifting the foot up several inches might make sense. However, the transfer of energy is about propelling your body through space to travel from one point on earth to another.

In other words if the foot goes up 12 inches then forward 24 inches then down 12 inches you have 48 inches of foot travel (it’s probably closer to 36 inches of travel because the directional changes are not 90 degree angles) If the foot goes up 2 out 24 and down 2 it’s only 28 inches of travel. (probably actually 26 inches) The extra 10 inches of movement do nothing except slow you down.

[Judge Pen]

I originally saw JRQ Ba Gua at a SD school. The stepping was not up and down. The foot lifted only a couple of inches off the ground. The explanation from the 64 Rules was the one about “Rise the Foot Rub the Muscle” if I remember correctly.

The important explanation for why to avoid lifting your foot way up was; each inch you pick the foot up requires an inch of travel back down. If the transfer of energy was about putting force into the ground then lifting the foot up several inches might make sense. However, the transfer of energy is about propelling your body through space to travel from one point on earth to another.

In other words if the foot goes up 12 inches then forward 24 inches then down 12 inches you have 48 inches of foot travel (it’s probably closer to 36 inches of travel because the directional changes are not 90 degree angles) If the foot goes up 2 out 24 and down 2 it’s only 28 inches of travel. (probably actually 26 inches) The extra 10 inches of movement do nothing except slow you down.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, but I have trouble squaring it with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7Dd3E_ct4

[RJ797]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

[Judge Pen]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

My guess is that your teacher did some independant study and started incorporating proper BaGua mechanics.

[RJ797]

Good guess.

[Empty_Cup]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

Same here...

[arinathos.valin]

Look at what happens when you don't check on a thread in a year...

First off, a wave to TM, Shaolin wookie, Bruce, Sean, and KC whom I remember from this forum from way back and a special tip of the hat to Judge Pen. I can't recall anywhere on this 1000 page thread where he lost his cool and was anything but cordial. Nicely done, sir.

I'm glad this thread hasn't been deleted. Even though much of it is a cyclical rehash, if you're patient enough to wade through everything it truly documents the magic of "pooled resources and minds." When this thread first popped up there were far more people who were unabashed supporters of SKT and took everything he said at his word. People who raised issues were often given the ALL CAPS reply in their defense of SD. Fast forward to now when we've looked at the temple origin claims and have found Cheng Man Ching, Jiang Rong Qiao, and Doc Fai Wong among who knows what else as the truth in origins. His defenders on this forum can't really argue these points, nor can they discount his damaging testimony in his lawsuit. They're stuck saying that he's a really nice guy and that he's been good to them. Unfortunately, the half-truths and tall tales that have been told over the years are now coming home to roost. If the head instructor can't be honest where this stuff comes from, how can others trust what else he has to say?

I looked at some of hskwarrior's demos and am impressed. His CLF has a lot of fluidity and way more full body motion/body mechanics than what is done in the SD versions. He can be abrasive, but then again he's pretty angry that not only did SKT steal the CLT form and not give credit, he and his students are doing a *******ized version of it that has none of the proper body mechanics and pawning it off as the real thing. I saw the clips of SKT doing Chen Taiji, and it was really embarrassing...nothing at all like the performances of Chen Bing, Ren GuangYi, or Chen XiaoWang except on the most superficial level.

(Side note though. His ribbing about gis at a funeral is juvenile. People mourn in their own fashion, and if the widow wants gis for his pallbearers then that's the most important thing. Serious ego issues going on.)

Here's the issue with forms. Not only do they teach you applications, they also teach you the underlying body mechanics that are crucial to understanding and executing the style. If you don't understand and internalize the body mechanics, you will have lost the most important thing the form is teaching. If you not only don't have the body mechanics, but change the performance of the form to substandard or detrimental body mechanics, WHY are you learning or teaching the form in the first place? Karatefying a xingyi form or Taiji form wrecks the underlying mechanics you're trying to train.

Now there are some masters who do their forms where they "look" plain but their body mechanics are just a lot more subtle (there's a reason internal arts are called "internal"). Cheng Man Ching is one of the first that comes to mind with this. With every clip of SKT that I've watched, I really don't get that feeling.

There were some good things I learned during my time in SD, but much of it had to be retooled extensively when I found other sources showing more advanced body mechanics (I'm thinking primarily of the Jiang Bagua form). I think it should be plainly obvious that a "grandmaster" should have those body mechanics inherent in his form, and I just don't see it.

[arinathos.valin]

Oh, for JP regarding Richard Clear...I've seen some of his stuff on YouTube. Hard to say for sure, but he certainly says the right things and the stuff I've looked at tells me he's got the right stuff. If I was in the area I'd check him out. Let us know what you find if you do.

[hskwarrior]

(Side note though. His ribbing about gis at a funeral is juvenile. People mourn in their own fashion, and if the widow wants gis for his pallbearers then that's the most important thing. Serious ego issues going on.)

LOL. i dropped that. but looking back, i was reacting on anger and disgust more than common sense. i admit that. they talked about wu de....but tried to overlook the fact of what ST did. that disgusted me even more. i'm dik when i'm ****ed and everyone is a victim because i don't normally get ****ed like that. old news now.

ps i was so ****ed that if jake lived in SF, you would have heard it on the news on what would have happened over this.

but thanks for your kind words on the demo's and such. :)

[Syn7]

LOL. i dropped that. but looking back, i was reacting on anger and disgust more than common sense. i admit that. they talked about wu de....but tried to overlook the fact of what ST did. that disgusted me even more. i'm dik when i'm ****ed and everyone is a victim because i don't normally get ****ed like that. old news now.

ps i was so ****ed that if jake lived in SF, you would have heard it on the news on what would have happened over this.

but thanks for your kind words on the demo's and such. :)

You should smoke more. Maybe put an extra hour and a half on the bag. :p


I don't know how normal this is, but when I get upset I get over it really fast. People don't believe me. If it's small and dumb I'm over it in seconds. If it's bad but I have no control over it, I can let it go till something else reminds me that it ****es me off. When it's aggressively in my face, I react a lil harsh sometimes, but I get over it in a very short time. And it's more of a calculated harsh, not a spaz. If I see that an aggressive solution could make the problem go away immediately, I may choose that. But there are so many variables, you have to be careful. Especially when it comes to violence. You have to protect yourself more than just physically.

I find this to be a good thing in most of my life, but not with the woman. I'm sure you can already imagine the argument. lol.

Protecting yourself legally reminds me of when I took a charge for winning a fight I didn't start because of how I handled it after I got the upper hand. I could have left, but I was like "Nah **** it, I'm committed now"... What most people saw was me smashing a car window and dragging a guy out and down. I never saw these people before, they rolled up, two jumped out. I caught the first one clean after he knocked my friend down and the second one as he was halfway out of the car door. After I kicked the door closed on the guy, I should have bounced out. We all got charged by the crown. And I got a mischief charge and a few other minor things that were, of course, dropped. One small tiny decision, very annoying consequences. It was bad because I was on trial for real charges, that didn't help. It didn't affect the other trial and I managed to put it back far enough that it couldn't even be brought up, but I was remanded. 7 months in freakin pretrial all over some **** I didn't care about w/ people I didn't know. Pretrial SUCKS! After a few weeks you are thinking, my god send me to real prison... PLEASE! The only place more annoying than pretrial was the SHU.

[Syn7]

Look at what happens when you don't check on a thread in a year...


****, how much did you read? I couldn't even make it through your whole post. Not trying to be mean, I'm just sayin... ****, that's a lot of reading. I'm a reader and I go through books like water, but I just don't have the patience to actually ready all of the words in here. I scan and stop, scan and stop. I gloss over about 90% of it tho.

[arinathos.valin]

Hey Syn7. Yes, I say it to my shame that I have pretty much read all 1200 pages at some point in time, although I skimmed through some of the one-liners. It's like a soap opera, or eating a bag of really good potato chips. Once you start it's hard to stop...

HSK, I wonder why you're still here. I don't mean that in a jerk kinda way. You've got a solid traceable lineage, significant martial skills, and you've done the research so you know your stuff cold. You've presented information on how SD has purloined the CLF form and is doing it poorly, and I think you've convinced most of the level-headed people here that you're probably right (right now it's hard to take SKT at his word at this point). I know you'd like SD to make the blanket statement about how a CLF form got into the system, but most of the people on this forum are no longer true 'kool aid' drinkers and don't have the pull to force SKT to be able to undo decades of storytelling. Are you here because you enjoy watching the slow-motion train wreck... or is there something else?

[hskwarrior]

HSK, I wonder why you're still here. I don't mean that in a jerk kinda way. You've got a solid traceable lineage, significant martial skills, and you've done the research so you know your stuff cold.

its like a terrible car crash. u don't really wanna look, but can't help it. believe me, i don't do it cause i want to. i need an intervention. LOL

[Syn7]

Hey Syn7. Yes, I say it to my shame that I have pretty much read all 1200 pages at some point in time, although I skimmed through some of the one-liners. It's like a soap opera, or eating a bag of really good potato chips. Once you start it's hard to stop...


HA! Doncha hate that!!! I'm like that with popcorn. Doesn't matter how much there is or how hungry I am. I will eat it till it's done.

[Judge Pen]

arinathos.valin,

Thanks for the kind words, but I do lose my temper often; I just get over it quickly and I wait until I'm objective before posting. Sometimes I have to wait longer than others.

Syn7, you had posted quite a while about lawyers. I now have a little insight into your perspective on the judicial system. I could not agree more with your point that there are too many people that go to law school that have no business being there. That schools, and the legally market are saturated. It has lowered the quality of the profession as a whole. I know lawyers that I wouldn't want to wash my pick-up truck.

But don't confuse discussion and debate here with legal argument or reasoning. It's very different. For one, though I have an opponent in court, I'm not trying to convince my opponent I am correct; I'm trying to convince a (hopefully) neutral and unbiased judge or jury. It's very different to try to convince someone coming from limited knowledge of a perspective then trying to convince somone with a strong feeling or perspective that they are wrong. There are very few here, myslef included, who is neutral and unbiased. 2nd, my arguments as a profession are governed by rules of evidence and procedure; rules that are enforced by a trained third-party (i.e. the judge). My sucess, in large part, depends on my knowledge of these rules, and the thousands of cases that interpret them and the substantive areas of law that I may be dealing with at the time, and my opponents lesser knowledge of the same. All of that then gets factored into argument and presentation.

What we have here is the logic of argument, unfiltered with our own biases, and wide open with little to no rules or procedure, or ways to enforce them. Though I enjoy the arguments here, and you Syn7 are a very talented debator for certain, its very different than what I do for a living.

[Syn7]

Ha, believe me... I understand the difference. lol.

I was mostly kidding around when I called law school babysitters for directionless postgrads. But the ratio is starting to get a lil ridiculous. For every engineer we have, there are like 4000 lawyers. Sad.

Well, I guess we have one guy to make ****, and 4000 to explain how you can use it and not go to jail! :p




Actually, it's funny, I've made so many gadgets that are illegal for all sorts of reasons. Some good, some bad. I'm sure I'm on a terror watch list somewhere because of the stuff I get in the mail. Not so much the parts, but the chemicals must raise some eyebrows somewhere. My wave jammer could be misused forsure. But I find it comforting that I can walk into a room full of people on cell phones and push one button and all of em drop out till I decide to turn it off. I just built it for practice really. You really gotta think it through before you push that button. Not for legal reasons, but for certain services. You can really mess people up. Emergency communications, traffic control, stuff like that. If you turned it on and just walked around the city it could cause serious problems and possibly injury or death. Easy to make though. Not illegal to have, just to use. Or sell.

[Syn7]

Only 787 pages to go kids....!!!

[Judge Pen]

http://youtu.be/cCWXkNTB4h4

[hskwarrior]

is that an off shoot of Shaolin do?

[Judge Pen]

No, Green Dragon is a train-wreck all on its own, but this form is also taught in SD.

[hskwarrior]

No, Green Dragon is a train-wreck all on its own, but this form is also taught in SD.

which book or video did SD pick it up from?

[Judge Pen]

which book or video did SD pick it up from?

Don't know. Maybe Green Dragon goes to the same library. Or maybe one has a legitimate source and the other stole from them. This is one of the basic SD forms, taught at the green belt/sash level. As I understand the most recent lawsuit, it is one of the claimed "copywritten" forms, so, at least in the legal case, Sin The claimed he fabricated this form.

[bodhi warrior]

Don't know. Maybe Green Dragon goes to the same library. Or maybe one has a legitimate source and the other stole from them. This is one of the basic SD forms, taught at the green belt/sash level. As I understand the most recent lawsuit, it is one of the claimed "copywritten" forms, so, at least in the legal case, Sin The claimed he fabricated this form.

Definetly our short stick form. I think green dragon studios is located out of Ohio. So it could have been absorbed by them. I think this form has been in SD since the '60's.

[sean_stonehart]

Don't know. Maybe Green Dragon goes to the same library. Or maybe one has a legitimate source and the other stole from them. This is one of the basic SD forms, taught at the green belt/sash level. As I understand the most recent lawsuit, it is one of the claimed "copywritten" forms, so, at least in the legal case, Sin The claimed he fabricated this form.

I think a shared library card.

I know SD had this on the KET videos from the 80's.

Also Green Dragon snagged a CLF set for their own as well... Dai Hung Kuen. They have another listed that I've never seen.

[Empty_Cup]

I think a shared library card.

I know SD had this on the KET videos from the 80's.

Also Green Dragon snagged a CLF set for their own as well... Dai Hung Kuen. They have another listed that I've never seen.

Their forms index...
http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/formsindex.asp

[shen ku]

They also have the 8 drunken, I wonder how theirs go?

[shen ku]

Its fun how this forum can go so dead so fast and then grow by 10 pages before you can look other times

[Snipsky]

no one really cares about shaolin do. its amazing it went this far.

i wonder is HSK ever received his answer on monkey beaks. oh man thats funny.:D

[OldandUsed]

It seems to me that the majority of posters in here were either slamming SD or were former practicioners that just wanted to keep in touch with some old workout buddies. The few knuckleheads that wanted to defend SD and SKT were in the minority.

[Old Noob]

I thought about bumping for bumping's sake yesterday.

P.S.
Suck it Snipsky! If you don't care, then whey do you trouble yourself to come over here and trashtalk everytime someone comes on to say a simple hello?

[Snipsky]

P.S.
Suck it Snipsky! If you don't care, then whey do you trouble yourself to come over here and trashtalk everytime someone comes on to say a simple hello?

you want to suck on what? :eek:

[Old Noob]

you want to suck on what? :eek:

You're a douche and you can't read evidently.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://youtu.be/cCWXkNTB4h4

Seems like every time someone wants to turn an SD form legit, it turns into ballet.:rolleyes:

They're holding the stick wrong. The recoil from a strike would knock it from their grip, and if you were to simply strike their sticks, it'd be an almost instant disarm. The "point the stick like it's a Harry Potter wand" technique is foreign to stick-weilding martial arts outside of Hogwarts. Always hold it like a hammer (well, not always, but almost always).

You get a stronger strike, and it always sets you up for your next strike. Their "hopping forward with Wingardiam Leviosa" technique is especially bad.

If you really thought a stick was a sword, maybe it'd make sense. But then why not use a wooden sword, like every other martial tradition in....um...well....recorded history?

[Shaolin Wookie]

A comment posted just a couple of pages ago brought something to mind.


Has anyone ever been encouraged to do a form just like GM Sin? I've been to 2 seminars with him (maybe 3), back when I was a noob...but I wouldn't pay for one ever again. I've never heard anyone say we should do anything like GM sin, and I've never honestly thought such a thing.....ever. I'm not being a douche....just honest. And personally, I don't care how he does any form or technique. Forms and techniques work with a person, or they don't. There's no "do it like he does" if it doesn't work. It has to work, and it had better be somewhat direct and simple.

Then again, I know that Atlanta is a different animal than say, Kentucky or Texas.

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

[Leto]

A comment posted just a couple of pages ago brought something to mind.


Has anyone ever been encouraged to do a form just like GM Sin? I've been to 2 seminars with him (maybe 3), back when I was a noob...but I wouldn't pay for one ever again. I've never heard anyone say we should do anything like GM sin, and I've never honestly thought such a thing.....ever. I'm not being a douche....just honest. And personally, I don't care how he does any form or technique. Forms and techniques work with a person, or they don't. There's no "do it like he does" if it doesn't work. It has to work, and it had better be somewhat direct and simple.

Then again, I know that Atlanta is a different animal than say, Kentucky or Texas.

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

I was the same way. Attended a few seminars with him and was never impressed by his movement. I have heard people still in the system insist that he is amazingly strong and amazing at everything, and that they have witnessed amazing feats of his prowess. I have come to believe that these stories are a form of self-deception, repeated over and over again until they are accepted as truth. It is true that when he was young he had a great physique, we've all seen the pictures. That's the best I can say personally, never saw him on video or in person do anything that would warrant the praise.
As for copying his movements, it was never verbally expressed...but as he is the grandmaster and originator of the system, it is implied that he has the greatest skill and knowledge and would be the epitome of what any student of the system hopes to achieve, right? I would expect people to copy him, assuming they believe that his knowledge of the material is deep and profound and his performance based on a lifetime of practice. That's why he's the master, right? He's supposed to know something that we don't? A good teacher provides a good example for study and emulation, can show you how to do something and make it work. Yes, you still have to make it work for you, but the teacher's example should set you closer to being successfull. If you have to ignore your teacher's example in order to make something work, there is something wrong, isn't there? Yes, at some point an advanced student will innovate and hopefully surpass the teacher, but a person shouldn't be there after less than 6 months of training.

[bodhi warrior]

And now an honest question (not meant to be inflammatory, but revealing): Have you ever seen a demo by him, in person or otherwise, and said to yourself, "Man, I wish I could do [place name of form here] just like GM Sin"?

The fact that I could never say that, even as a blue belt, seems to mean something to me. Then again, there are masters in the system who I could never hope to rival in skill/dexterity. I have said, "Man, I wish I were as good at this or that as he is" with many masters/senior masters. And some of them are getting quite old (so age/physical condition isn't the dividing factor between them and GM Sin).

Random thoughts late at night.

In the KET series, gm sin demonstrates sparring tech #17 on bill Leonard. The transition from knee trap to roundhouse was lightening fast. I had to rewind it a couple of times to make sure I saw what I saw. It was so fast.

[Oso]

“If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy, so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust.”

—Shaolin Grandmaster
—Sin Kwang Thé


from this page

http://portlandshaolin.com/shaolin.php

[Judge Pen]

Come to think of it, I'm lucky I didn't accidently kill someone in all those tournaments I fought in. :)

Seriously, no apologies necessary. That quote is utter B.S. If I remember correctly, he was even cross-examined on that quote in his deposition.

Regarding GMS' movement, I have to echo the comments that while I was a part of the system I never wanted to copy his movement. I too have heard tells from teachers I respect telling me how fast and powerful Sin The is/was, but it was always in the past and nothing I have never witnessed for myself. At the end of my SD time I will say that I was impressed with his stamina and flexibility during seminars considering his age, but that alone doesn't make a master. His form always seemed sloppy and hokey and it was after my teachers would work up a form that it felt like there was some power and marital intent behind it.

I have seen the KET tapes and recall, specifically the sparring technique bodhi warrior references. He was quicker then, no doubt, but his form, for bagua and taiji, were still awkward.

[Oso]

lol, yea, cuz my insurance was only so good ;)

[Judge Pen]

lol, yea, cuz my insurance was only so good ;)

I should have just put that quote on my t-shirt. Then it would be assumption of the risk.

[FullPotentialMA]

To frosh2786:

I suggest you visit a variety of the schools in your area and witness the classes themselves. My own eclectic approach to martial arts has been rewarding for me. Other styles whether Korean or Japanese can find Shaolin roots in their history.
Many of the foundation techniques: kicks, punches, blocks, etc. have minor variations but remain quite similar. No matter what you study, you might consider a system that reinforces your own natural strengths, body type, and personal tastes.

s

Cannot agree more: search yourself. Find a good instructor that you like and where you feel a connection. Don't worry about what the martial arts system is called.

[Syn7]

While I agree that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, the cover is usually a good indicator of what you will find inside. So yeah, if it has a dumb name that does not mean it is no good. But be weary.

If you are looking for traditional MA's, then yeah, the name does matter. If you just wanna learn to fight, go to the place that best demonstrates combat effectiveness. If all they do is forms and stand up point sparring, that's cool, but you'll prolly get served in a real fight. It really depends on your priorities. If personal cultivation is your goal, that's ok, but stop saying it will work in a realistic situation. That's straight up fraud. It's irresponsible and down right dangerous. I can't tell you how many people I have seen get knocked around because they believed they could fight because they take MA's. It's a dangerous reality check.

As for teachers, knowledge is more important than their execution... BUT they should be able to produce students that can execute.

That being said... SKT has absolutely horrible form. It's weak and sloppy... straight up.

[Empty_Cup]

As for teachers, knowledge is more important than their execution... BUT they should be able to produce students that can execute.

...

And what makes you think there are no students who can execute in SD? What does "execute" mean in your opinion?

[Syn7]

And what makes you think there are no students who can execute in SD? What does "execute" mean in your opinion?

I never said there wasn't. I have seen about 20 or so videos posted in here as examples of good kung fu and have yet to see it, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyone that can. I have no desire to grade every SD practitioner. Besides, it's just my opinion, why should anyone care, right. Either you can fight or you can't. I don't really care either way if you get knocked around. My comment was more of a general statement. But hey, if you want me to start bashing SD again, we can do that. It's not my fault you threw money and time at a fraud. Shoulda done your homework, son.

[Leto]

We've had some time now since the revelation of the deposition and the last time the origins of the material was discussed. Has there been a change in the dialogue concering the origins of the material, for those of you still in the system? For those teaching the system, what do you tell your students on this topic?
Is there an official statement or revised history sent for instructors to relay?

Does anyone believe the deposition testimony was a lie and only an attempt to protect a copyright claim, implying all the material is mostly intact from the Bandung school, including the lower belts?

Does anyone believe the testimony is completely true as stated, and that material was created "from scratch"? If so, which material is that?

Assuming that the tesimony was not a complete lie, and that some of the material is changed significantly from what was taught in Bandung, what do we believe is a Sin The creation and what traditional?

SKT or Bandung? mostly SKT? mostly Bandung?
1. 20 sparring techniques
2. 30 short forms
3. 30 chin na
4. 9 one step sparring
5. 10 fighting techniques
6. si men tao lian
7. fei hu chu dong
8. tai peng sin kune
9. lohan chien
10. chu ji gun (blue belt staff)
11. bei fang qi gai bang
12. san he chien
13. white crane forms
14. shaolin bird forms
15. chie chien
16. lian wu chang
17. ching kong fu hu chien
18. black tiger forms
19. tang lang chien
20. drunken forms
21. fu chia chien

[sean_stonehart]

Well somebody got confused between SKT & Green Dragon from Ohio because #11 (stick set) appears to be the same.

http://youtu.be/cCWXkNTB4h4

#12 is a variation of the lifted & shared Saam Chien found all over Fujian from what I can tell.

#15 & #16 could be lifted from elsewhere & SD'd

The rest... who knows...