Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Leto]

Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.

[sean_stonehart]

Well here's an example of Five Ancestor's

http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk

You mix that with the Pentjack Silat & you might get that distillation. I'm no where close to being able to guess that.

And you figure that SKT & HKT have lived here since the 60's with only trips back to Indonesia, along with that's not the characters SKT/HKT use for their names... I'm calling coincidence.

[bodhi warrior]

Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.

The flavor is very similar to the forms Master Hiang teaches. But I've never seen these routines. Master Hiang did spend extended periods in Indonesia during his early years here in the states, from my understanding. I don't know if he taught there.

[Leto]

Well here's an example of Five Ancestor's

http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk

You mix that with the Pentjack Silat & you might get that distillation. I'm no where close to being able to guess that.

And you figure that SKT & HKT have lived here since the 60's with only trips back to Indonesia, along with that's not the characters SKT/HKT use for their names... I'm calling coincidence.

Oh yeah, I'm not doubting the fujian and wuzuquan influence on what the guy's doing. It's just the name of the master that caught my eye, the fact that it's from Bandung, and it's performance and techniques look a lot like stuff we see in SD.
I would say wuzuquan is a good candidate for at least one of the styles that had input into SD, based on the version of saam chien. San he chien looks a lot more like the wuzuquan version of the form compared to some of the white crane variations I've seen. I wonder if the "shaolin bird" forms may have had their inspiration there as well. Adjust and shorten the forward stances a bit, slight adjustment to some of the hand positions, and it could look a lot like wuzuquan or southern lohan. Unless san he chien was just transplanted into the system by SKT for variety (which is alwas possible, like we see with tiger crane duet, five animals, and others) I would think that some of the forms contain elements of the style which san he chien belongs to. Clearly si men tao lian is inspired by a similar southern system. Even if SKT created the sequence, he appears to have learned something from a Fujian style. The question I have is, how much of the system is Fujian influenced and how much is Shandong or northern influenced. We know some of the brown belt forms used, jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu, are clearly northern influence. What I wonder about really are the black tigers. Sometimes I look at them and see clear northern shaolin influence, but another part I see a southern sort of guangdong flavor in them, and then bits I think might be silat/cimande as well. Equally I wonder about the brown belt white crane forms. SKT creations? Or Kuntao amalgams of fujian, silat, and something else?

[UCT]

In the video he submitted to the Copyright Office, his technique is very sloppy and at one point he nearly drops a sword. Doesn't look like Master level performance at all.


Come to think of it, I'm lucky I didn't accidently kill someone in all those tournaments I fought in. :)

Seriously, no apologies necessary. That quote is utter B.S. If I remember correctly, he was even cross-examined on that quote in his deposition.

Regarding GMS' movement, I have to echo the comments that while I was a part of the system I never wanted to copy his movement. I too have heard tells from teachers I respect telling me how fast and powerful Sin The is/was, but it was always in the past and nothing I have never witnessed for myself. At the end of my SD time I will say that I was impressed with his stamina and flexibility during seminars considering his age, but that alone doesn't make a master. His form always seemed sloppy and hokey and it was after my teachers would work up a form that it felt like there was some power and marital intent behind it.

I have seen the KET tapes and recall, specifically the sparring technique bodhi warrior references. He was quicker then, no doubt, but his form, for bagua and taiji, were still awkward.

[bodhi warrior]

In the video he submitted to the Copyright Office, his technique is very sloppy and at one point he nearly drops a sword. Doesn't look like Master level performance at all.

How can one obtain a copy of this video?

[kwaichang]

who is that supposed to be a pic of. KC

[bodhi warrior]

who is that supposed to be a pic of. KC

From what I can gather, the pic is Hiang sr. There is a man named Sifu Fred Decramer who says he studied from Ie Chang Ming and Hiang sr in 1966. He has a website: http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/ . They're in the Netherlands. Check out the lineage chart. I'm not sure what the relationship is between Ie Chang Ming and Hiang sr. is. Maybe relatives.

[shen ku]

That is interesting, he has the same pic of su kong as sin the does.

[Leto]

Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.

[Empty_Cup]

Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.

I don't think it's likely "Hiang Sr" is their father. For one, he seems much too old. He would have been 47 when he had Sin The and even older for Hsiang The...

[Judge Pen]

I don't think it's likely "Hiang Sr" is their father. For one, he seems much too old. He would have been 47 when he had Sin The and even older for Hsiang The...

Charlie Chaplan sired children into his 70s.

And the photo's of "Hiang Sr" are some of the photos that a former poster sent to MasterKiller claiming they were of Ie Chang Ming. Counld it be that Ie Chang Ming and Hiang Sr. are the same?

Very interesting find, but like everything it raises more questions than answers.

Check out these photos:

Also, check out the videos here:

http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/video-1/

Very similar flavor to many of our ippons, chin na and street fighting techniques. Also look at the first video at :57. Starts out with virtually the identical application from the opening of Se Mong Tai Lai.

I don't know any of our monkey forms, excpet for ground monkey, so I'd be curious to get other's take on the flavor of some of the techniques and forms.

[Old Noob]

Charlie Chaplan sired children into his 70s.

And the photo's of "Hiang Sr" are some of the photos that a former poster sent to MasterKiller claiming they were of Ie Chang Ming. Counld it be that Ie Chang Ming and Hiang Sr. are the same?

Very interesting find, but like everything it raises more questions than answers.

Check out these photos:

Also, check out the videos here:

http://www.howchuenmonkeykungfu.nl/video-1/

Very similar flavor to many of our ippons, chin na and street fighting techniques. Also look at the first video at :57. Starts out with virtually the identical application from the opening of Se Mong Tai Lai.

I don't know any of our monkey forms, excpet for ground monkey, so I'd be curious to get other's take on the flavor of some of the techniques and forms.

They can't be the same person becuase the lineage chart on the Dutch site lists both Hiang Sr and GM Ie.

[Old Noob]

See

7455

[Judge Pen]

So where is Ie in the photos? All we have is paintings of him. And I was making that statement as another person claimed these photos were actually of Ie Chang Ming.

[Old Noob]

So where is Ie in the photos? All we have is paintings of him. And I was making that statement as another person claimed these photos were actually of Ie Chang Ming.

Yeah. I was going to point out the same thing but you beat me to it. The drawings of Ie show him to be slightly heavier set in the face than the photos of Ie/Hiang Sr. But who the heck knows now. There's no reason why a guy who trained directly with both Ie and Hiang Sr would incorrectly label the photos. So I guess we have to assume that we don't know exactly what Ie looked like.

[bodhi warrior]

The 2nd photo looks like the beginning of tang Lang chuen.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah. I was going to point out the same thing but you beat me to it. The drawings of Ie show him to be slightly heavier set in the face than the photos of Ie/Hiang Sr. But who the heck knows now. There's no reason why a guy who trained directly with both Ie and Hiang Sr would incorrectly label the photos. So I guess we have to assume that we don't know exactly what Ie looked like.

Who knows? If this guy was training with Ie and "Hiang Sr" in the late '60s (right after Sin The came to America, you would think that he had photos of him too.

[BM2]

GM Sin's father was born around 1916. You can do the math and look at the photos.

[Empty_Cup]

GM Sin's father was born around 1916. You can do the math and look at the photos.

So if those pics were taken in the 60's then he'd be a pretty old-looking 40/50-something. Maybe he took a sip from the wrong grail...

[shen ku]

I thought his dad didn't want him to train at first

[Leto]

Here are a few questions and comments raised by the Netherlands information:

Could "Hiang Sr" be grandfather, rather than father, to the The brothers? That would fit with Hiang's story that he was trained by his grandfather, and also Sin's story that Ie was not his grandfather, although both of them would be lying about or omitting something. The lineage just one generation back should not be this obscure. If it's all made up, we now have three different schools making up very similar stories and using the same names. It is practically impossible that so many names and elements in common are really coincidences and are actually completely different people and schools. Only one of them (if any) can be telling the truth. So, is Ie Chang Ming an alias for Hiang Sr, and actually Grandfather The? Were Ie and Hiang Sr both teachers within the same school? Does Hiang Sr even exist? Why doesn't Decramer mention his family name? His student Van Hooj calls him Hiang Kuan Teh. Hiang could have been a martial arts teacher, but would not teach his own grandchildren/children, instead leaving that to his colleague Ie. This would explain the different styles taught to Decramer and the Netherlands bunch vs what Sin and Hiang teach. Or they could have just taught different material as time went on, as is sometimes the case in martial arts schools, styles evolve and change. Maybe after Sin and Hiang left, the way they taught started changing. Or the brothers got different instruction because they were family. Or the material in SD has been so modified by Sin and Hiang that it wouldn't be recognizeable to the original teachers and other students.
One thing the Dutch group has over Sin and Hiang are actual pictures of a group of students and their teacher, that include themselves. It's hard to verify whether a picture is exactly who and what is claimed. But it is definately better than a painting.

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

[Empty_Cup]

Here are a few questions and comments raised by the Netherlands information:

Could "Hiang Sr" be grandfather, rather than father, to the The brothers? That would fit with Hiang's story that he was trained by his grandfather, and also Sin's story that Ie was not his grandfather, although both of them would be lying about or omitting something. The lineage just one generation back should not be this obscure. If it's all made up, we now have three different schools making up very similar stories and using the same names. It is practically impossible that so many names and elements in common are really coincidences and are actually completely different people and schools. Only one of them (if any) can be telling the truth. So, is Ie Chang Ming an alias for Hiang Sr, and actually Grandfather The? Were Ie and Hiang Sr both teachers within the same school? Does Hiang Sr even exist? Why doesn't Decramer mention his family name? His student Van Hooj calls him Hiang Kuan Teh. Hiang could have been a martial arts teacher, but would not teach his own grandchildren/children, instead leaving that to his colleague Ie. This would explain the different styles taught to Decramer and the Netherlands bunch vs what Sin and Hiang teach. Or they could have just taught different material as time went on, as is sometimes the case in martial arts schools, styles evolve and change. Maybe after Sin and Hiang left, the way they taught started changing. Or the brothers got different instruction because they were family. Or the material in SD has been so modified by Sin and Hiang that it wouldn't be recognizeable to the original teachers and other students.
One thing the Dutch group has over Sin and Hiang are actual pictures of a group of students and their teacher, that include themselves. It's hard to verify whether a picture is exactly who and what is claimed. But it is definately better than a painting.

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

Good questions. Why don't we put together the most important ones and ask the Netherlands group? There is an email address listed on their site.

[One student]

Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfziyfEM750

Read the descritpion: "as taught in Indonesia (Bandung) by the Chinese grandmaster Hiang Kuan Teh 香關德 successor of Shi Miao Yue (Sek Miao Guat) 释妙月"

Can that name be a coincidence? Though the forms presented doesn't match any SD, his movements and mannerisms certainly do. Is this a bunch of BS, or a guy with some legit third party information about the lineage? Or someone who's master's name just coincidentally is identical to Sin Kwang The's brother. It seems unlikely that he could have actually learned from Hiang The in Bandung, since he never taught there and left when he was young.

Reference to the school and sifu in the Netherlands has come up before, as a student at the same school Ie Chang Ming taught at, and where both The's went. This is the first time I've seen their material. Other than its not the exact same forms (that SD has shown yet at least), anyone who has done SD for a long time can see the similarities in the material, postures, even common techniques. And of course (other than the patches) the uniform/belt. I thought others even had photos of the Sifu in the Netherlands at the Bandung school. And other than the "grandmaster" part, HKT can't be a coincidence. How many HKT's in CMA could there be originating in Bandung, Indonesia? And who knows what goes on at that school that no one outside of it knows about.

And although HKT also moved to US, he went back more often than ST, and moved back, and stays there more. Could easily have still participated with the school, shared stuff, taught some there, too.

But the existence, material, and professed lineage of the Netherlands' school and is commonalities with SD, seems to clearly indicate, if not prove,at least that:

1. SD-type material, and what others have called the "flavor" of the material and how it is performed and packaged, is not a figment of GMT's imagination -- others do it, too.

2. Unless that school is part of the same "scam" others have accused SD of, it does have origins/roots in Shaolin -- even if influenced by native Indonesian arts (or the other way around). Here's another non-SD school, but from the same origin, saying so.

3. Su Kong was not made up by GMT, this school gives the same lineage, even with the same photo -- right or wrong they both got it from somewhere.

If only those who are really close to GMST would show him this and ask him what he knows about it.

[One student]

Very interesting. I can see a resemblance between the man in the pic and the The brothers, look at the nose. They have the same grandmasters story, same story about using Japanese style uniforms. There is no mention of Ie being related to Hiang Sr, they are listed as both being direct students of Su Kong. But why would Sin and Hiang never mention their father as one of their teachers? It doesn't make any sense. I did hear Sin The tell a story about an ancestor of his, great great grandfather or something, who was a martial arts expert. So he did acknowledge in an off-hand way that martial arts have been in his family for multiple generations, it just seems strange that it's never mentioned as part of the proud lineage. Did their father not actually teach them, because he wanted them to learn from someone else, like the story of Wong Fei Hung being sent to his father's friend to learn martial arts, because Wong Kei Ying felt he couldn't be strict enough with his own son? It just doesn't make sense for any of these people to lie about or hide anything based on what we know. Maybe someone involved was a wanted criminal, and their true identity is being protected (Ie Chang Ming did supposedly kill some soldiers). However, it seems like the The family was quite well-off, Sin even mentioned that the ancestor in his story was a wealthy man who had servants. Organized crime? Weird, weird, weird.

Just speculating, could also be an uncle, cousin, etc., wouldn't have to be father. Or could be unrelated with common last name.

[One student]

Who knows? If this guy was training with Ie and "Hiang Sr" in the late '60s (right after Sin The came to America, you would think that he had photos of him too.

I know of only two pictures, maybe three ever taken of me and my teachers, and I don't have any of them. Don't think that's just me. I wouldn't put much into the lack of pictures, much less the lack of publishing them.

[BM2]

I thought his dad didn't want him to train at first

I implied that it was not his father.

[OTD]

Best I can do on short notice
Hope you can read the names

OTD

[MasterKiller]

I don't suppose anyone who still interacts with GM The is going to ask about this school in the Netherlands and his lineage claims and pictures. That would be the quickest way to get actual answers.

I'm pretty sure BM2 showed these to Sin The when I first got them. I never really heard what the repsonse was, though.

[Judge Pen]

Best I can do on short notice
Hope you can read the names

OTD

Ah, once again you tease us with just a little information....:D

[OTD]

Excerpt from Old Dutch East India Trading Journals

[Judge Pen]

Excerpt from Old Dutch East India Trading Journals

Interesting. Some verification of the The' family name in Indonesia as early as 1911.

[shen ku]

No one find any new photos

[bodhi warrior]

For those who want to know:

GM Wang Ziqiu (1862-1948), generation II ---> (pupils in / heir) Zheyuan Wang, Wang Zhexiao, Xuefu Ji (Chi Xiaofu/1890-1976), Xu Qiliang, Liu Hanqing, Liu Shupeng, Ceng Hanjun, Changmiao Wang, Wang Guilun, Yongan Luo, Yu Dingwo, Wang Guixiang, (third generation).

GM Wang Zheyuan, generation III ---> (pupils in / heir) Su Zhongyi, Zuoquan Lai, Chen Maoren, Sun Lianjun, Lin Xinhong, Su Fuyuan, Zhou Chongyao, Zhihan Fu, Cai Jinhui, Li Fushun, (generation IV) .

Master Su Fuyuan, generation IV ---> (pupils in) Yingsiung Huang, Li Chingyuan, ... etc.. (Generation V).

Interesting to see chi shou fu and liu shu peng in there.

[Leto]

Great! Where did that come from? So there are two of the teachers from Hiang's school's lineage, jives with what it says on their website and we've got a lineage for at least the black tiger and probably other Shantung material (lian wu zhang?) Liu ShuPeng is listed there, described by Hiang as "spirit whip hand" who specialized in the tai peng system...wonder if the Tai Peng is then a Shantung system, or a separate lineage altogether. I also wonder if the tang lang comes from this Shantung lineage. Now if we could only find something similar for Ie Chang Ming and/or the The family lineage. Based on the Netherlands site, it seems like their style would be mainly monkey and/or mantis. But Sin and Hiang don't seem to have much monkey.

[bodhi warrior]

To expand insight and maintain friendships between martial artists, exchange students began to visit one another's martial art schools.

They included:


Kwi Guan from Bandung: He was one of Suhu's saudara seperguruan
[school fraternity]. He was often asked to teach in Bogor.


Cua Kek Kiong: from the Ceng Bu Hwe school, Jakarta


Tjio Swi Hong: who was known for his Shan Tung
[a Chinese martial art] knowledge.




Lo Ban Teng: a Chinese kung fu master from Jakarta.


Mr. Suhaya, H. Dulhamid: from Cimande [a pencak silat style]

This was taken from:


Biography of the Grand Master
of PGB Bangau Putih
Suhu Subur Rahardja

Kwi guan, another teacher of master Hiang.

[Leto]

To expand insight and maintain friendships between martial artists, exchange students began to visit one another's martial art schools.

They included:


Cua Kek Kiong: from the Ceng Bu Hwe school, Jakarta




Cua (Tjoa) Kek Kiong is the author of the Shantung Black Tiger book, in conjunction with Draeger.

[bawang]

i think the indonesian shaolin do looks just as sh1tty as sin the shaolin do.

[hskwarrior]

i think the indonesian shaolin do looks just as sh1tty as sin the shaolin do.

They're still better than what you're learning.

[bawang]

They're still better than what you're learning.

i learn from green grass monk. he taught me the real hung sing. i accept jesus christ into my life.

[hskwarrior]

i learn from green grass monk. he taught me the real hung sing. i accept jesus christ into my life.

yea i know. i think you hung hisu kwan reborn

[hiphippo]

Hi everybody. New member here and new to martial arts in general. Judge Penn or any Knoxville natives still hanging around? Recently started training in the area and am enjoying the classes a bunch.

[kwaichang]

Yeah man where are you training and what style? KC

[hiphippo]

Traditional Shaolin is the name of the school - my teacher's name is Daniel Mattson. From what I've read he studied under Elder Master Gary Mullins in the Shaolin-Do system. However, Mullins name doesn't appear to be listed on the Shaolin-Do website with other masters' names. I know in the past (perhaps still?) there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the lineage of Shaolin-Do and the claims made by its' Grandmaster. I just want to state that this isn't really a concern of mine and I'm simply bringing it up for the sake of curiosity.

I suppose I'm simply asking if Gary Mullins and those under him are still part of the Shaolin-Do system or if they've perhaps tried to distance themselves from it somehow? Also, what is the general state of the Shaolin-Do system as of present? I could ask my teacher but I have not been there long and I feel it would be somewhat disrespectful.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to discussing Kung Fu with everyone on this forum and hopefully learning a lot and making some new friends. Take care.

[shen ku]

look here shaolingrandmaster.com master mullins is listed here, he is not listed on the shaolin do association website, that is just a smaller group within a group.

[Empty_Cup]

Hi everybody. New member here and new to martial arts in general. Judge Penn or any Knoxville natives still hanging around? Recently started training in the area and am enjoying the classes a bunch.

Welcome...
Keep an open mind and thick skin here, there are plenty of trolls and flame wars. Don't let it curb your enthusiasm to train in whatever system you choose.

[Old Noob]

Traditional Shaolin is the name of the school - my teacher's name is Daniel Mattson. From what I've read he studied under Elder Master Gary Mullins in the Shaolin-Do system. However, Mullins name doesn't appear to be listed on the Shaolin-Do website with other masters' names. I know in the past (perhaps still?) there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the lineage of Shaolin-Do and the claims made by its' Grandmaster. I just want to state that this isn't really a concern of mine and I'm simply bringing it up for the sake of curiosity.

I suppose I'm simply asking if Gary Mullins and those under him are still part of the Shaolin-Do system or if they've perhaps tried to distance themselves from it somehow? Also, what is the general state of the Shaolin-Do system as of present? I could ask my teacher but I have not been there long and I feel it would be somewhat disrespectful.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to discussing Kung Fu with everyone on this forum and hopefully learning a lot and making some new friends. Take care.

Welcome. Though this thread is very long, its an interesting read that will answer many, if not all of your questions. To your main question, though, SD is now divided into three major branches (with some notable exceptions). The Shaolin Do association branch includes the original school in Lexington and is overseen by Bill Leonard. The school under that banner are primarily in KY, Ohio, Texas, and a few other places. Theres a second branch under Mullins, which I beleive may have subdivided in some way with grooms. These schools use the name Shaolin Do, but practice in sams rather than gis. They primarily function in TN, WV, GA, and Florida, with some recent additions out west. The third branch is out west and generally uses the name Chinese Shaolin Centers rather than Shaolin Do, though they still wear gis for training. That branch is run by the Soards. Though there was some sort of undetailed falling out among Leonard/Mullins/Soards that split SD into the three major divisions, all of those "elder masters" are still tight with Sin The. That's why you'll see their schools listed on Sin The's website but not on the SDA website or the Lexington school's website.

In addition to the three major SD factions, there are some splitters (used in a non-perjorative way) in TN and out west. Some of these folks have gone independant due to sex abuse scandals involving the Soards out west and others have gone independant because of Sin The's penchant for dishonesty regarding the origins of the SD material.

I think that about sums it up. Others can add/subtract/disagree with if you wish.

[Empty_Cup]

Welcome. Though this thread is very long, its an interesting read that will answer many, if not all of your questions. To your main question, though, SD is now divided into three major branches (with some notable exceptions). The Shaolin Do association branch includes the original school in Lexington and is overseen by Bill Leonard. The school under that banner are primarily in KY, Ohio, Texas, and a few other places. Theres a second branch under Mullins, which I beleive may have subdivided in some way with grooms. These schools use the name Shaolin Do, but practice in sams rather than gis. They primarily function in TN, WV, GA, and Florida, with some recent additions out west. The third branch is out west and generally uses the name Chinese Shaolin Centers rather than Shaolin Do, though they still wear gis for training. That branch is run by the Soards. Though there was some sort of undetailed falling out among Leonard/Mullins/Soards that split SD into the three major divisions, all of those "elder masters" are still tight with Sin The. That's why you'll see their schools listed on Sin The's website but not on the SDA website or the Lexington school's website.

In addition to the three major SD factions, there are some splitters (used in a non-perjorative way) in TN and out west. Some of these folks have gone independant due to sex abuse scandals involving the Soards out west and others have gone independant because of Sin The's penchant for dishonesty regarding the origins of the SD material.

I think that about sums it up. Others can add/subtract/disagree with if you wish.

Might also add the separate school under Hsiang The, Sin's brother. Whether he would ever admit to being part of "Shaolin-Do" in the first place is a different question...

[Old Noob]

Might also add the separate school under Hsiang The, Sin's brother. Whether he would ever admit to being part of "Shaolin-Do" in the first place is a different question...

Yes! Good catch. And important given the lineage revelations of the last few pages.

[hiphippo]

Welcome. Though this thread is very long, its an interesting read that will answer many, if not all of your questions. To your main question, though, SD is now divided into three major branches (with some notable exceptions). The Shaolin Do association branch includes the original school in Lexington and is overseen by Bill Leonard. The school under that banner are primarily in KY, Ohio, Texas, and a few other places. Theres a second branch under Mullins, which I beleive may have subdivided in some way with grooms. These schools use the name Shaolin Do, but practice in sams rather than gis. They primarily function in TN, WV, GA, and Florida, with some recent additions out west. The third branch is out west and generally uses the name Chinese Shaolin Centers rather than Shaolin Do, though they still wear gis for training. That branch is run by the Soards. Though there was some sort of undetailed falling out among Leonard/Mullins/Soards that split SD into the three major divisions, all of those "elder masters" are still tight with Sin The. That's why you'll see their schools listed on Sin The's website but not on the SDA website or the Lexington school's website.

In addition to the three major SD factions, there are some splitters (used in a non-perjorative way) in TN and out west. Some of these folks have gone independant due to sex abuse scandals involving the Soards out west and others have gone independant because of Sin The's penchant for dishonesty regarding the origins of the SD material.

I think that about sums it up. Others can add/subtract/disagree with if you wish.

Thank you for the info, Old Noob. I've skimmed through this thread but it is quite long! I appreciate the summary!

[Judge Pen]

Hi everybody. New member here and new to martial arts in general. Judge Penn or any Knoxville natives still hanging around? Recently started training in the area and am enjoying the classes a bunch.

Yes I'm still hanging around. Old Noob summed up the factions in SD rather concisely. Daniel is an excellent teacher and a contemporary of mine. I hope you enjoy your training and don't get caught up in all the drama and politics.

[hiphippo]

Yes I'm still hanging around. Old Noob summed up the factions in SD rather concisely. Daniel is an excellent teacher and a contemporary of mine. I hope you enjoy your training and don't get caught up in all the drama and politics.

Thank you - I'm enjoying it very much so far. Daniel seems like he has a lot to offer and I'm enjoying the internal stuff as much if not more than the other material. Just trying to act like a sponge and absorb as much as possible. :D

[Snipsky]

this is how students of Shaolin Do train....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1314/5164921576_f08b32b9b0.jpg

[kwaichang]

Which one is YOU. Front or Back, giver or receiver. KC

[wdl]

Yes I'm still hanging around. Old Noob summed up the factions in SD rather concisely. Daniel is an excellent teacher and a contemporary of mine. I hope you enjoy your training and don't get caught up in all the drama and politics.

Dude... this thread is still going??? I've not looked at it in years.....

What's up JP? How's life?

[Judge Pen]

Dude... this thread is still going??? I've not looked at it in years.....

What's up JP? How's life?

Hey man. Life is good. Two beautiful kids and a beautiful wife. And people keep suing so I have pleanty of work.

How goes it with you?

[JSE]

Thank you for the info, Old Noob. I've skimmed through this thread but it is quite long! I appreciate the summary!

Master Daniel has separated his school from both Shaolin Do and the Mullins family. I understand the hesitation to ask, being a new student and all, but he is very open and honest about this and would not mind a bit if you were to ask. Glad you are enjoying the training! Keep it up. :D

[hiphippo]

Master Daniel has separated his school from both Shaolin Do and the Mullins family. I understand the hesitation to ask, being a new student and all, but he is very open and honest about this and would not mind a bit if you were to ask. Glad you are enjoying the training! Keep it up. :D

Good to know, JSE. Thank you for the advice. :)

On another note, it's nice to see so many Knoxville locals hanging around!

[wdl]

Hey man. Life is good. Two beautiful kids and a beautiful wife. And people keep suing so I have pleanty of work.

How goes it with you?

Awesome dude! Good to hear.

Life is good here too. Been in the air force the last five years, three of them in Europe, back in the states in Arizona now. Married, beautiful wife and one kid for me. The terrorists won't stop blowing stuff up or hacking people to pieces.... So plenty of work as well. Hahaha

Can you just sue the terrorists? Get them mired up in red tape until they give up?

So... I've read back and caught up on the drama/saga. Interesting..... But none of it a surprise. It was always a grandiose storyline.

I have to concur with JP, in the rural region there was little choice. Certainly there wasn't another choice where I lived that had the same level of martial intent and physical conditioning and the mental/physical stamina has definately served me well in my present occupation. Without a doubt if I moved back to where I lived in Tennessee I'd begin practicing under the Mullins again.

[wdl]

Ex-East tenn local here....

Hippo:

Daniel is a great instructor and very patient. I'm sure you've noticed this already, you'll be able to learn and expand your skillset under him. When he was part of the Mullins group his students always were sharp and very competitive, at least when I was there.

[kwaichang]

What happened to the pic that was up? KC

[Judge Pen]

What happened to the pic that was up? KC

Which one?

[shen ku]

The one of the stone..??

[Empty_Cup]

The one of the stone..??

Yeah that one

[hskwarrior]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/253/3/7/Monkey_Bird_by_moth_eatn.jpg

[JSE]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/253/3/7/Monkey_Bird_by_moth_eatn.jpg

So thats where that ape crane set came from. ;)

[bodhi warrior]

So here's a guy who used to be called Matt Small, who's now called Matthew Lee. In this video he has taken the first 5 short kata modified them a little and calls it eagle claw Tom toy. In my opinion this is the wrong direction to go.

http://youtu.be/IVsrBBDwEro

[Kymus]

So here's a guy who used to be called Matt Small, who's now called Matthew Lee. In this video he has taken the first 5 short kata modified them a little and calls it eagle claw Tom toy. In my opinion this is the wrong direction to go.

http://youtu.be/IVsrBBDwEro

Oh great, another Jake Mace :rolleyes:

[RJ797]

This guy is an idiot too. Him and Jake are good buddies who have been poorly trained by the Soards - and know it. But they can't actually change anything - because it means admitting they where wrong.

[hskwarrior]

This guy is an idiot too. Him and Jake are good buddies who have been poorly trained by the Soards - and know it. But they can't actually change anything - because it means admitting they where wrong.

now this makes sense. that fak moves exactly like jake tha fake monkey beaks. like twins.

[Empty_Cup]

So here's a guy who used to be called Matt Small, who's now called Matthew Lee. In this video he has taken the first 5 short kata modified them a little and calls it eagle claw Tom toy. In my opinion this is the wrong direction to go.

http://youtu.be/IVsrBBDwEro

I agree...he's also slowed them down so there's no cardio benefit anymore. There are already plenty of forms out there to perform slowly, why create another one?

[shen ku]

Thats just pure $hit

[kungfujunky]

The 2nd photo looks like the beginning of tang Lang chuen.

Looks like the short stick form. He is holding a kai pong in his right hand.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know what to say about that.... modifying material from material that you learned from a man that probably made it up to begin with and then changing the name, and your own name, to distance yourself from the material's origins. Wow.

If you're going to keep doing and teaching SD, then be up front about it. Teach it the way you know it and the way it works for you and be honest about what you know and what it is. If you want to change it for what works for you personally, then have at it, but don't call it something else that implies a different origin.

Like I said early on, I will encourage my children to study martial arts, and if they want I will teach them what I know and what works for me, but they will know the origins as I understand them.

[kwaichang]

well real or not if it works I will continue to practice SD. I will practice other things as well. I dont care if anyone approves or not. SD is an effective MA and is powerful in many ways. KC

[hskwarrior]

well real or not if it works I will continue to practice SD. I will practice other things as well. I dont care if anyone approves or not. SD is an effective MA and is powerful in many ways. KC

belief is a good thing. but you sound bitter. i'd be bitter too if i got dooped.

[Kymus]

This guy is apparently taking lessons from the Jake Mace school of question dodging:

He was asked where he learned his Eagle Claw from and his response is:


I've had a handful of instructors, and though I cherish all the teachings I am far from a "purist" where I tout any one particular lineage. I've been lucky to train with some really skilled teachers but I do the JKD thing and take what works, throw away what doesn't and do my own thing! Thanks for watching!

.......................*facepalm*

I get that he can't say he does Shaolin-Do, but how about answering the question? Jake Mace answers things the same way. He says that he learned from a variety of teachers and trains in China a few times a year and "lineage isn't important".......:rolleyes:

Can no one legally say "I learned X style(s) from Y person(s)"? I get that they can'ts say that they teach the ancient and copyrighted art of Shaolin-Do, but... c'mon.

What's with these former Shaolin Do guys that have cr@ppy moves, change their names, and start using YouTube to aggressive promote their bullsh!t??

[Kymus]

I don't know what to say about that.... modifying material from material that you learned from a man that probably made it up to begin with and then changing the name, and your own name, to distance yourself from the material's origins. Wow.

If you're going to keep doing and teaching SD, then be up front about it. Teach it the way you know it and the way it works for you and be honest about what you know and what it is. If you want to change it for what works for you personally, then have at it, but don't call it something else that implies a different origin.

Like I said early on, I will encourage my children to study martial arts, and if they want I will teach them what I know and what works for me, but they will know the origins as I understand them.

I agree 100%. At least be honest about it. But, I'm sure his market isn't in the area of experienced martial artists, but kung fu n00bs. What he doesn't realize is that he's gonna get a cr@pton of trolls on his youtube page and likely become the butt of many jokes on Martial Arts forums because he's selling a lie.. a really bad lie that's even bigger than Jake Mace's lie.

[bigopen]

It's an old technique used by politicians; you don't answer the question that you are asked, you answer the question that you would have liked to have been asked, in a confident and forthright mannor.

[Judge Pen]

This guy is apparently taking lessons from the Jake Mace school of question dodging:

He was asked where he learned his Eagle Claw from and his response is:



.......................*facepalm*

I get that he can't say he does Shaolin-Do, but how about answering the question? Jake Mace answers things the same way. He says that he learned from a variety of teachers and trains in China a few times a year and "lineage isn't important".......:rolleyes:

Can no one legally say "I learned X style(s) from Y person(s)"? I get that they can'ts say that they teach the ancient and copyrighted art of Shaolin-Do, but... c'mon.

What's with these former Shaolin Do guys that have cr@ppy moves, change their names, and start using YouTube to aggressive promote their bullsh!t??

Why can't he say he did SD, had a falling out with the system, is training in other arts too, and created his own thing based on what he knows? Simple, and probably wouldn't matter to the market of students he is seeking.

[hskwarrior]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238512403_dancing_chimps.gif

[Kymus]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238512403_dancing_chimps.gif

Golden Monkey Taunts the Tiger

[kwaichang]

No I am not bitter. But I have read this back and forth stuff so much and for so long i have been researching the important things in Life. and as I said real or not True or not it doesnt matter. i can fight using what i have learned in Sd and other arts I have studied and the forms whether traditional or not are dynamic and effective and powerful. so i will cont to cont. KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/epMjrx78Bwo

[Alex Córdoba]

http://youtu.be/epMjrx78Bwo

Someone stated, Wuzu Quan is the root of Okinawan Karate.

[hskwarrior]

Can you see the Karate Notice it is from Fujien
http://youtu.be/epMjrx78Bwo

i saw kung fu. i saw no karate. no karate is ever gonna have the flow these guys had. karate always looks like the retarded step child to kung fu parents.

[Kymus]

I'm with HSK.

There are some direct movements that look very similar to Karate's rigidness, but the flow and circular movements that are in there as well are hallmarks of Kung Fu. Further, they have jing and their movements are well done. It doesn't look like someone that's just waving their arms around; that's one of the biggest criticisms that I have of most SD forms I've seen. The other being odd McDojo-like moves; Jake Mace's videos have these.

[pazman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXGh7ltxuyI

This guy has better kung fu than 99.9% of the kung fu people out there, but it's karate.

The problem is with SD is not that it looks like karate, it looks like bad karate people doing kung fu they learned from a book, horribly.

[Sima Rong]

Someone stated, Wuzu Quan is the root of Okinawan Karate.

This Wuzuquan? http://youtu.be/nVdANNX2zP4

[bodhi warrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXGh7ltxuyI

This guy has better kung fu than 99.9% of the kung fu people out there, but it's karate.

The problem is with SD is not that it looks like karate, it looks like bad karate people doing kung fu they learned from a book, horribly.

I'm a big fan of Toyama Sensei. I agree the majority of today's SD students look bad. But there are some who look very good. But most, if not all, are old school guys from way back. There are numerous reasons for this.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXGh7ltxuyI

This guy has better kung fu than 99.9% of the kung fu people out there, but it's karate.

The problem is with SD is not that it looks like karate, it looks like bad karate people doing kung fu they learned from a book, horribly.

That man's traps were frightening.

I agree with the assesment of most SD that's out there. I think that there are exceptions, like Master Mullins, Master Reid or Master Nance, but most people here would lump them all together which is fine.

[bawang]

I'm a big fan of Toyama Sensei. I agree the majority of today's SD students look bad. But there are some who look very good. But most, if not all, are old school guys from way back. There are numerous reasons for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY8-8AmMTXM

[Empty_Cup]

It doesn't look like someone that's just waving their arms around; that's one of the biggest criticisms that I have of most SD forms I've seen. The other being odd McDojo-like moves; Jake Mace's videos have these.

Have you seen any SD in person or are you just going off Internet videos and jake mace?

[Kymus]

Have you seen any SD in person or are you just going off Internet videos and jake mace?

It's the latter, Empty Cup.

I've seen some well done SD forms like from SW, and it looks like actual Kung Fu to me with flow and intent. 99% of the rest, including everything I've seen from Sin The, looks god-awful.

[Kymus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY8-8AmMTXM

I'm going to have nightmares about that tonight. Thanks, Bawang

[Judge Pen]

It's the latter, Empty Cup.

I've seen some well done SD forms like from SW, and it looks like actual Kung Fu to me with flow and intent. 99% of the rest, including everything I've seen from Sin The, looks god-awful.

I'll agree about Sin The's forms. Never thought they were done particularly well. I ignored it for so long because of teachers that I respected.

[Kymus]

I'll agree about Sin The's forms. Never thought they were done particularly well. I ignored it for so long because of teachers that I respected.

I think this begs the question:

Did SD always look like this? Is the reason why it looks so out-of-whack is because Sin The taught forms cr@ppily? How much of this is influence from the time in Indonesia?

Didn't someone - a long while ago - post a video of a school in Indonesia that learned from ICM? I forget how their forms looked.

[kwaichang]

Not all of GMThe's forms are bad some yes due to physical limitations. But that is just that form. I still dont see any karate type stuff in SD it doesnt have the same mechanics. So i am not speaking from bias just what I have seen. my point was the form I posted came from another site here. KC

[Empty_Cup]

I think this begs the question:

Did SD always look like this? Is the reason why it looks so out-of-whack is because Sin The taught forms cr@ppily? How much of this is influence from the time in Indonesia?

Didn't someone - a long while ago - post a video of a school in Indonesia that learned from ICM? I forget how their forms looked.

I'm not one of the old-timers but have seen the series from the 80's when everybody was younger and there weren't really physical limitations. Back then, as now, there were folks who were just plain sloppy. And there were also folks who looked sharp, most notably (IMO) EM ES. It really comes down to what that particular person worked on.

The real question, in my mind, is about expectations. To see higher ranking people performing sloppily is disappointing because it implies low expectations. Some ppl choose to push themselves harder to go above and beyond.

At some point in the past, I've heard EML tried to standardize the forms to create a minimum expectation on how they should look. This effort got shot down by GMS because he "didn't want robots." Something to chew on, but again this info isn't firsthand.

[pazman]

I think this begs the question:

Did SD always look like this? Is the reason why it looks so out-of-whack is because Sin The taught forms cr@ppily? How much of this is influence from the time in Indonesia?

Didn't someone - a long while ago - post a video of a school in Indonesia that learned from ICM? I forget how their forms looked.

The forms look like **** because Sin The learned them

1) from a book

2) from a seminar, and didn't do any follow up training

3) made them up without any sort of clue (mantis beaks)

[Judge Pen]

I think this begs the question:

Did SD always look like this? Is the reason why it looks so out-of-whack is because Sin The taught forms cr@ppily? How much of this is influence from the time in Indonesia?

Didn't someone - a long while ago - post a video of a school in Indonesia that learned from ICM? I forget how their forms looked.

Yes someone did and then they were taken down. They were on par with what you see in SD here. Nice by SD standards. I don't know if Sin The is the heir to the system taught by ICM or not, but even if he is, I doubt he was the best forms person under ICM.

What the Indonesian videos confirmed to me is that whatever style SD claims to be, it is not pure kung fu or anything else but very kung tao in its development. Which isn't bad as long as you don't pretend that it is anything else.

[Kymus]

Not all of GMThe's forms are bad some yes due to physical limitations. But that is just that form. I still dont see any karate type stuff in SD it doesnt have the same mechanics. So i am not speaking from bias just what I have seen. my point was the form I posted came from another site here. KC

It's not that the forms themselves look like karate, it's that the practitioners generally come off like karate guys attempting to do kung fu, badly. You could also liken it to someone with no training, watching a wuxia, and then trying to mimic it. That's what people mean when they criticize SD forms.

Of the form's I've seen Sin The do, namely mantis and the double canes, I dunno how old age can be given as an excuse for their poor performance :confused:.

There are certain passes we give to old masters that do forms. They're not perfect anymore, but they're still at least good. This is a great example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbEHx4SNcGE&list=PL2FEB43030D619497). Master Su Yu-Chang (whom admittedly I have a great deal of respect for) does this mantis form well. In the video, you'll also see him when we was young doing it. He can't do things like that anymore, but the form at least still looks good. Sin The's forms look really bad.

[Kymus]

What the Indonesian videos confirmed to me is that whatever style SD claims to be, it is not pure kung fu or anything else but very kung tao in its development. Which isn't bad as long as you don't pretend that it is anything else.

Yeah, when you look at it as something that isn't Kung Fu, it has a little more meaning to it. But when you look at it as Kung Fu, it just looks terrible.

[Empty_Cup]

Yes someone did and then they were taken down. They were on par with what you see in SD here. Nice by SD standards. I don't know if Sin The is the heir to the system taught by ICM or not, but even if he is, I doubt he was the best forms person under ICM.

What the Indonesian videos confirmed to me is that whatever style SD claims to be, it is not pure kung fu or anything else but very kung tao in its development. Which isn't bad as long as you don't pretend that it is anything else.

I didn't see the videos before they got taken down. What was in them that confirmed to you it is kung tao vs. kung fu being taught in Indonesia? I don't really care one way or another, just want to understand what you saw in those videos that makes you say that.

[Kymus]

The forms look like **** because Sin The learned them

1) from a book

2) from a seminar, and didn't do any follow up training

3) made them up without any sort of clue (mantis beaks)

Well, it's been established that he learned something (who knows what it was) in Indonesia. Given, yeah, there are forms he learned from books and JP has mentioned - I believe - that those were beaten with the ugly stick the most. I'll take his word for it.

The closest thing we know for certain is that Sin The learned some stuff in Indonesia, and all the fairy tales and different body mechanics explain this (for the most part). The rest is uncertain.

[Kymus]

I didn't see the videos before they got taken down. What was in them that confirmed to you it is kung tao vs. kung fu being taught in Indonesia? I don't really care one way or another, just want to understand what you saw in those videos that makes you say that.

I think it's Mas Judt's commentary on how arts brought over to Indonesia take on a very Indonesian flair. I think he said it's probable that SD came from China and then got shoved in to a blender while it was in Indonesia and it transformed in to kun tao.

[Judge Pen]

I've had some conversations with Mas Judt about this. It's my persepctive that Indonesian arts tend to be very pragmatic which don't make for the prettiest forms. The origins may be in large part CMA, but that flovor is largely lost in the process so even forms that are identifiably CMA don't really look like CMA that was filtered through China, Tai Wan, Hong Kong etc. Complicating that is the idea that some forms may have been learned through books, videos or notes.

The old timers tell me that forms work was a very small percentage of the SD that they first learned. Most of the focus was on the sparring and the conditioning. I've never seen Sin The spar, but I know people in SD that can fight with the best of the other TMA students and teachers that I've trained with, so I will not criticize the ability of someone to learn how to apply the art.

It seems that there was a forms explosion in the mid 1980s. It was at that time that more branches of SD were taking off in other parts of the country and it was right after the sports center went under. Hallady's book came out as well as the inside kung fu article (where the infamous list of material linked to various temples was listed). Where all of these forms came from is a matter of speculation, but the focus certainly shifted from fighting and conditioning to forms, forms, forms. I was lucky to have a teacher that stuck with the basic material and we sparred and conditioned most of the time, but I was always surprised when I visited other schools at how lower belts were working on forms that I had never seen or heard of.

As far as the material in Indonesian video, there was Buddha Fist, 8 directional Dao, 5 Directional Palm, and a few that I had not seen that still had a distinct SD flavor to it.

[OldandUsed]

JP, I have to agree with what you have posted. I first went to SD in 1970. At the time I was a high school wrestler that wascoming in for freshman year of college and wanted something to work on my conditioning while I was waiting on wrestling season to start up. Stayed with it until 2005. Have seen both GMT and HKT spar, and in the 70's, that was something to see. It has changed over the years, but we always called it karate, never kungfu.

[JSE]

I would be interested to see a person from "traditional" style take one of the SD forms and perform it with what they believe to be proper flow and body mechanics.

Not from the stand point of "If you think you can do it better go for it" , so don't take it that way, but more of a way to have a proper comparison.

Any volunteers??? :p;):D

[Kymus]

Shaolin Wookie, while he isn't traditionally trained, performs his forms like a TCMA guy would. I think in his signature is a link to his youtube account.

[Judge Pen]

Shaolin Wookie, while he isn't traditionally trained, performs his forms like a TCMA guy would. I think in his signature is a link to his youtube account.

He does, but I think his teachers really try to emphasize a CMA flavor to their forms more so than the Kentucky SD elders or even Master Garry Mullins (one of my main teachers in SD). There are some videos of Master Garry doing a ground dragon form (which was one of the Indonesian forms performed in 1992). It's an odd form and I think a traditional form from the Indonesian schoool.

[Judge Pen]

JP, I have to agree with what you have posted. I first went to SD in 1970. At the time I was a high school wrestler that wascoming in for freshman year of college and wanted something to work on my conditioning while I was waiting on wrestling season to start up. Stayed with it until 2005. Have seen both GMT and HKT spar, and in the 70's, that was something to see. It has changed over the years, but we always called it karate, never kungfu.

I started in 1989. My teacher called it Karate, but said it was really kung fu as taught in Indonesia. Since then, I've worked with some JMA people and some CMA people and I really think SD is its own animal. The forms are closer to CMA in structure, but the flavor is different than both CMA and JMA (which is why I don't agree with the criticism that it's just Karate trying to be kung fu).

[OldandUsed]

LOL, yes sir. I always had to put SD in its own little niche. Not this and not that, kind of a deal. Yes, I have managed to cross train in a handful of different arts over the years. (Always liked Gary).

[bodhi warrior]

JP, I have to agree with what you have posted. I first went to SD in 1970. At the time I was a high school wrestler that wascoming in for freshman year of college and wanted something to work on my conditioning while I was waiting on wrestling season to start up. Stayed with it until 2005. Have seen both GMT and HKT spar, and in the 70's, that was something to see. It has changed over the years, but we always called it karate, never kungfu.

Man, I'd love to hear more about the sparring of Sin and Hiang.

[bodhi warrior]

The old timers tell me that forms work was a very small percentage of the SD that they first learned. Most of the focus was on the sparring and the conditioning. I've never seen Sin The spar, but I know people in SD that can fight with the best of the other TMA students and teachers that I've trained with, so I will not criticize the ability of someone to learn how to apply the art.

It seems that there was a forms explosion in the mid 1980s. It was at that time that more branches of SD were taking off in other parts of the country and it was right after the sports center went under. Hallady's book came out as well as the inside kung fu article (where the infamous list of material linked to various temples was listed). Where all of these forms came from is a matter of speculation, but the focus certainly shifted from fighting and conditioning to forms, forms, forms. I was lucky to have a teacher that stuck with the basic material and we sparred and conditioned most of the time, but I was always surprised when I visited other schools at how lower belts were working on forms that I had never seen or heard of.

As far as the material in Indonesian video, there was Buddha Fist, 8 directional Dao, 5 Directional Palm, and a few that I had not seen that still had a distinct SD flavor to it.

Exactly! There were very few forms(compared to the present), and lots of conditioning and sparring.

[OldandUsed]

@Bohdi. I remember the demonstration at the first Hazard tournamemnt when Sin and Hiang sparred each other. They were using weapons and closed to empty hand. There was a point where Sin caught Hiang in the eye and then they stopped the match. It was quite entertaining.

There were times when we would get to the dojo early and they would be working out behind locked doors. You could hear them going at it. Then, the door would open and they would come out soaking wet with sweat and act like nothing happened.

Of course, that was back before their falling out, in the 70's.

[hskwarrior]

dojo

see! karate! ABSOLUTELY ZERO authentic chinese martial arts schools NEVER call their schools DOJO...........lmao......fake ass kung fu

[Empty_Cup]

see! karate! ABSOLUTELY ZERO authentic chinese martial arts schools NEVER call their schools DOJO...........lmao......fake ass kung fu

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: nice contribution

[OldandUsed]

I never called it kung fu. Always called it karate. Go play in traffic, Dip****.

[hskwarrior]

i found something interesting about Shaolin Do..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbNg43zdabE


Go play in traffic, Dip****

do you feel gangsta now? did you do the hand gestures with that too? did you bob your head or swivel your neck when you typed that?

[OldandUsed]

Actually, I routinely beat down punks like you and haul what is left off to jail for a living. Don't waste yourself!

[bodhi warrior]

@Bohdi. I remember the demonstration at the first Hazard tournamemnt when Sin and Hiang sparred each other. They were using weapons and closed to empty hand. There was a point where Sin caught Hiang in the eye and then they stopped the match. It was quite entertaining.

There were times when we would get to the dojo early and they would be working out behind locked doors. You could hear them going at it. Then, the door would open and they would come out soaking wet with sweat and act like nothing happened.

Of course, that was back before their falling out, in the 70's.

Thanks. I love hearing about the training from the '60's and '70's. I started in the '80's.

[hskwarrior]

Actually, I routinely beat down punks like you and haul what is left off to jail for a living. Don't waste yourself!


http://www.kmpblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/liar.jpg

[OldandUsed]

Whatever, Keyboard Sifu.

[Judge Pen]

I love how productive and respectful conversations get derailed at the drop of a hat. But for the record, I think everyone was agreeing that SD wasn't pure CMA so what are we arguing about?

[OldandUsed]

Absolutely correct, JP.

[hskwarrior]

here's one for you COPPER......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiX7GTelTPM

[OldandUsed]

Bring your fat ass to my county and we will see how you do.

[OldandUsed]

One of the things I find both sad and amusing is the posturing of the empty martial artists I have found on the site.

Why make the rude, disrespectful criticisms of someone that practices different than you? Why pound your chest and present boastful claims of lineage, traditional art form or martial prowess because someone is not from your clan?

The tirades about stealing, disrespect, lack of honor or acceptance into a community from individuals that display none of these qualities themselves or demonstrate even the most basic understanding of the priciples they decry are remarkable.

After all, what is in a name or a title? And if that does indeed have its own worth, truly, haven't you desecrated it by proclaiming it too much? If you have to shout it out at every opportunity, then it has no worth to anyone but you.

A quote from a TV show recently sums it up very well. If you have to say you are the king, then you are no king.

I have given all of the screen time I am going to to those that are unworthy of my efforts.

[Kymus]

(Some liberties and sweeping generalizations have been made for simplification, humor, and Hollywood special effects. We apologize for the inconvenience and wish you a good day)


Op: Is Shaolin Do for realz??:confused:
Gene: D'oh!
Forum: OMGzzzz noooooooo
SD: YES!! IT IS TEH REALZ
Forum: NOOOOOOO BS BS BS
SD: IT IS TEH 4RLZ 4LYF!
Troll: Trololololololololol
SD: (*&*^%&^%$@(*&$#
Forum: Lulz
Former SD guy: Screw you guyz, I'm goin home
SD KoolAid Drinker No. 1: I'll put you in a body bag!!!
Former SD: )%&$%(*%$
SD KoolAid: )(*^%^&*^% to you too! I'll hit you so hard your momma will pheel it!
Educated forum member: No it isn't real
SD: Yes, but no, but yes
SD KoolAid: Uh noooooooooo. BS. U sux
Educated forum member: .....................:rolleyes:
SD: (*%^(*&^()*
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: :mad:
SD KooAid: %%$)(*&@*(&^@*(&^@$#)&*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene: STFU or ya'll gonna get it!
Forum: Zzzzzzzz
Educated forum member: I think it's really xyz
SD: :Yes but no but yes
SD KoolAid: BS BS BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!
Educated forum member: No srsly
SD KoolAid: :rolleyes:
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: $(*$&)(&@)_!(%$&)(%*$^&*@!^%#%^
SD KoolAid: I am a lethal weapon and will kill you with my eyes!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
N00b: OMGz it's not real! They wear gi's! Why do they wear gi's?!
SD: :rolleyes: read the thread from page 1
SD KoolAid: I WILL FUX U UP BRO!
Gene: No, SRSLY, STFU. Lawsuites and stuffs. SRSBIZNES
Forum: lawlz
N00b: TL;DR
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Educated forum member: You know......
SD: Maybe....
SD KoolAid: (*^&*&(^%&*)(*(*&*(^& FU
Troll: TOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: *(&^@#&(@^#(*&!!!!!
SD KoolAid: !@#*(&^$&*!@*#)*(&$^*#^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)

BREAKING NEWS! SPECIAL WORLDWIDE REPORT! SD ISN'T REALZ! Sin The sez: I make it up and tell gwai lo it real Shaolin so I no seem boastful. :cool:

SD: :eek::confused::mad:
SD KoolAid: Oh. Oops? But waitaminute..........
Forum: Duh
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: (*$&#$)^*&@^(*&^!(*&^##$

FIN.

[Kymus]

One of the things I find both sad and amusing is the posturing of the empty martial artists I have found on the site.

Why make the rude, disrespectful criticisms of someone that practices different than you? Why pound your chest and present boastful claims of lineage, traditional art form or martial prowess because someone is not from your clan?

The tirades about stealing, disrespect, lack of honor or acceptance into a community from individuals that display none of these qualities themselves or demonstrate even the most basic understanding of the priciples they decry are remarkable.

After all, what is in a name or a title? And if that does indeed have its own worth, truly, haven't you desecrated it by proclaiming it too much? If you have to shout it out at every opportunity, then it has no worth to anyone but you.

A quote from a TV show recently sums it up very well. If you have to say you are the king, then you are no king.

I have given all of the screen time I am going to to those that are unworthy of my efforts.


KFM is like the Wuxia of the internet. It's not KFM without lots of mudslinging. JP said it best with "it's like people think that if you can't say something negative, don't say anything at all".
Likely due to seriously absurd claims made by the faithful few, some folks find it to be really insulting
Until SD can come clean and be honest about what it is, it's going to stick out like a sore thumb, despite revelations and dead horse beating



I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is.

[lkfmdc]

(Some liberties and sweeping generalizations have been made for simplification, humor, and Hollywood special effects. We apologize for the inconvenience and wish you a good day)


Op: Is Shaolin Do for realz??:confused:
Gene: D'oh!
Forum: OMGzzzz noooooooo
SD: YES!! IT IS TEH REALZ
Forum: NOOOOOOO BS BS BS
SD: IT IS TEH 4RLZ 4LYF!
Troll: Trololololololololol
SD: (*&*^%&^%$@(*&$#
Forum: Lulz
Former SD guy: Screw you guyz, I'm goin home
SD KoolAid Drinker No. 1: I'll put you in a body bag!!!
Former SD: )%&$%(*%$
SD KoolAid: )(*^%^&*^% to you too! I'll hit you so hard your momma will pheel it!
Educated forum member: No it isn't real
SD: Yes, but no, but yes
SD KoolAid: Uh noooooooooo. BS. U sux
Educated forum member: .....................:rolleyes:
SD: (*%^(*&^()*
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: :mad:
SD KooAid: %%$)(*&@*(&^@*(&^@$#)&*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene: STFU or ya'll gonna get it!
Forum: Zzzzzzzz
Educated forum member: I think it's really xyz
SD: :Yes but no but yes
SD KoolAid: BS BS BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!
Educated forum member: No srsly
SD KoolAid: :rolleyes:
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: $(*$&)(&@)_!(%$&)(%*$^&*@!^%#%^
SD KoolAid: I am a lethal weapon and will kill you with my eyes!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
N00b: OMGz it's not real! They wear gi's! Why do they wear gi's?!
SD: :rolleyes: read the thread from page 1
SD KoolAid: I WILL FUX U UP BRO!
Gene: No, SRSLY, STFU. Lawsuites and stuffs. SRSBIZNES
Forum: lawlz
N00b: TL;DR
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Educated forum member: You know......
SD: Maybe....
SD KoolAid: (*^&*&(^%&*)(*(*&*(^& FU
Troll: TOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: *(&^@#&(@^#(*&!!!!!
SD KoolAid: !@#*(&^$&*!@*#)*(&$^*#^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)

BREAKING NEWS! SPECIAL WORLDWIDE REPORT! SD ISN'T REALZ! Sin The sez: I make it up and tell gwai lo it real Shaolin so I no seem boastful. :cool:

SD: :eek::confused::mad:
SD KoolAid: Oh. Oops? But waitaminute..........
Forum: Duh
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: (*$&#$)^*&@^(*&^!(*&^##$

FIN.

some forums let you "vote up" people, if this forum had that feature, I'd vote you up LOL

[bawang]

anyone wanna learn some muay thai do? tai chi do?

LOL

[lkfmdc]

kids, do you like violence
Wanna see me stick Nine Inch Nails through each one of my eyelids
Wanna copy me and do exactly like I did
Try 'cid and get ****ed up worse than my life is
My brain's dead weight, I'm trying to get my head straight
But I can't figure out which Spice Girl I want to impregnate

[Syn7]

Actually, I routinely beat down punks like you and haul what is left off to jail for a living. Don't waste yourself!

No you don't. You use unfair advantages and drop nuts when you get caught alone in an overwhelming situation. I hear talk talk talk yet I have yet to see a cop actually drop his toys and go rounds on the street. **** never happens. I **** on your gang. Your authority only exists in your own head. You got nada!

If I crew up, kick in your door and duct tape you and your family, that doesn't make me tough. Tell me how what you do is any different where physical ability is concerned?

[Kymus]

I love how productive and respectful conversations get derailed at the drop of a hat.

Can you imagine KFM any other way? :p

That seems odd :confused:

[OldandUsed]

(Some liberties and sweeping generalizations have been made for simplification, humor, and Hollywood special effects. We apologize for the inconvenience and wish you a good day)


Op: Is Shaolin Do for realz??:confused:
Gene: D'oh!
Forum: OMGzzzz noooooooo
SD: YES!! IT IS TEH REALZ
Forum: NOOOOOOO BS BS BS
SD: IT IS TEH 4RLZ 4LYF!
Troll: Trololololololololol
SD: (*&*^%&^%$@(*&$#
Forum: Lulz
Former SD guy: Screw you guyz, I'm goin home
SD KoolAid Drinker No. 1: I'll put you in a body bag!!!
Former SD: )%&$%(*%$
SD KoolAid: )(*^%^&*^% to you too! I'll hit you so hard your momma will pheel it!
Educated forum member: No it isn't real
SD: Yes, but no, but yes
SD KoolAid: Uh noooooooooo. BS. U sux
Educated forum member: .....................:rolleyes:
SD: (*%^(*&^()*
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: :mad:
SD KooAid: %%$)(*&@*(&^@*(&^@$#)&*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene: STFU or ya'll gonna get it!
Forum: Zzzzzzzz
Educated forum member: I think it's really xyz
SD: :Yes but no but yes
SD KoolAid: BS BS BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!
Educated forum member: No srsly
SD KoolAid: :rolleyes:
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: $(*$&)(&@)_!(%$&)(%*$^&*@!^%#%^
SD KoolAid: I am a lethal weapon and will kill you with my eyes!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
N00b: OMGz it's not real! They wear gi's! Why do they wear gi's?!
SD: :rolleyes: read the thread from page 1
SD KoolAid: I WILL FUX U UP BRO!
Gene: No, SRSLY, STFU. Lawsuites and stuffs. SRSBIZNES
Forum: lawlz
N00b: TL;DR
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Educated forum member: You know......
SD: Maybe....
SD KoolAid: (*^&*&(^%&*)(*(*&*(^& FU
Troll: TOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: *(&^@#&(@^#(*&!!!!!
SD KoolAid: !@#*(&^$&*!@*#)*(&$^*#^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)

BREAKING NEWS! SPECIAL WORLDWIDE REPORT! SD ISN'T REALZ! Sin The sez: I make it up and tell gwai lo it real Shaolin so I no seem boastful. :cool:

SD: :eek::confused::mad:
SD KoolAid: Oh. Oops? But waitaminute..........
Forum: Duh
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: (*$&#$)^*&@^(*&^!(*&^##$

FIN.

Okay, now that I have cleaned off the coffee I spit all over the screen, I can see what I am typing and tell you that was pretty good. Excellent wit.

[Lucas]

can i learn the complete art of the monkey beak in this thread? or perhaps through a correspondence course?

[Syn7]

It's just a *******ized version of the wombat claw.

[Kymus]

some forums let you "vote up" people, if this forum had that feature, I'd vote you up LOL

I am glad you approve, Ross :D

The Hollywood version will have to include your photoshops. I think with my script and your photoshops, we'll have a serious blockbuster dramadey on our hands.

We'll be rich mofos!! :eek::cool::D

addendum: An old coworker of mine can do the animation and special fx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQauUAAIm5I

[Kymus]

can i learn the complete art of the monkey beak in this thread? or perhaps through a correspondence course?

teh monkey beaks is so deadly you can only learn it through YouTube and Skype. If you do it in real life, people will die.

[Lucas]

teh monkey beaks is so deadly you can only learn it through YouTube and Skype. If you do it in real life, people will die.

like how many people? is it random or can i target specific people with it?

[Kymus]

like how many people? is it random or can i target specific people with it?

No one knows for sure. I heard that in the old days at Shaolin, the student had to hide far away in the bushes and watch. Some were too weak to handle even that. X_X

[lkfmdc]

I will teach you "monkey beak enters the dark cave" if you pay me one million dollars

[Lucas]

I will teach you "monkey beak enters the dark cave" if you pay me one million dollars

will you throw in the 'mantis beak circles the lagoon' also?

[lkfmdc]

will you throw in the 'mantis beak circles the lagoon' also?

"tiger tongue circles the pearl" is what you are looking for

[Old Noob]

(Some liberties and sweeping generalizations have been made for simplification, humor, and Hollywood special effects. We apologize for the inconvenience and wish you a good day)


Op: Is Shaolin Do for realz??:confused:
Gene: D'oh!
Forum: OMGzzzz noooooooo
SD: YES!! IT IS TEH REALZ
Forum: NOOOOOOO BS BS BS
SD: IT IS TEH 4RLZ 4LYF!
Troll: Trololololololololol
SD: (*&*^%&^%$@(*&$#
Forum: Lulz
Former SD guy: Screw you guyz, I'm goin home
SD KoolAid Drinker No. 1: I'll put you in a body bag!!!
Former SD: )%&$%(*%$
SD KoolAid: )(*^%^&*^% to you too! I'll hit you so hard your momma will pheel it!
Educated forum member: No it isn't real
SD: Yes, but no, but yes
SD KoolAid: Uh noooooooooo. BS. U sux
Educated forum member: .....................:rolleyes:
SD: (*%^(*&^()*
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: :mad:
SD KooAid: %%$)(*&@*(&^@*(&^@$#)&*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene: STFU or ya'll gonna get it!
Forum: Zzzzzzzz
Educated forum member: I think it's really xyz
SD: :Yes but no but yes
SD KoolAid: BS BS BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!
Educated forum member: No srsly
SD KoolAid: :rolleyes:
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: $(*$&)(&@)_!(%$&)(%*$^&*@!^%#%^
SD KoolAid: I am a lethal weapon and will kill you with my eyes!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
N00b: OMGz it's not real! They wear gi's! Why do they wear gi's?!
SD: :rolleyes: read the thread from page 1
SD KoolAid: I WILL FUX U UP BRO!
Gene: No, SRSLY, STFU. Lawsuites and stuffs. SRSBIZNES
Forum: lawlz
N00b: TL;DR
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Educated forum member: You know......
SD: Maybe....
SD KoolAid: (*^&*&(^%&*)(*(*&*(^& FU
Troll: TOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: *(&^@#&(@^#(*&!!!!!
SD KoolAid: !@#*(&^$&*!@*#)*(&$^*#^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)

BREAKING NEWS! SPECIAL WORLDWIDE REPORT! SD ISN'T REALZ! Sin The sez: I make it up and tell gwai lo it real Shaolin so I no seem boastful. :cool:

SD: :eek::confused::mad:
SD KoolAid: Oh. Oops? But waitaminute..........
Forum: Duh
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: (*$&#$)^*&@^(*&^!(*&^##$

FIN.

Excellent work. Now when the next noob gets here, we can refer them to this post rather than to the beginning of the thread.

[Old Noob]

... and HSK sucks.

[lkfmdc]

... and HSK sucks.

well, to be fair, you do have to give him a $1 first..... :p

[Syn7]

well, to be fair, you do have to give him a $1 first..... :p

I'm sure he'll do it for UFO links!

[Kymus]

... and HSK sucks.

reminds me of when the thread would get too quiet so MasterKiller or LKFMDC would come by to try to beat the bees nest :p


(not that LKFMDC would ever engage in disreputable actions on this forum. I heard he was give the chivalry award by Gene's boss! :eek:)

[Kymus]

i'm sure he'll do it for ufo links!

lmao!

12342354325

[lkfmdc]

(not that LKFMDC would ever engage in disreputable actions on this forum. I heard he was give the chivalry award by Gene's boss! :eek:)

Gene's boss has a contract out on me... but I'm a ninja!

[Kymus]

Gene's boss has a contract out on me... but I'm a ninja!

Is that the secret Clear Cloud Temple art where one turns invisible? I heard that was only taught to 30th degree black belts :eek:

[lkfmdc]

Is that the secret Clear Cloud Temple art



never speak of the clear cloud, it makes some people green with envy.... :D

(totally inside joke)

[Kymus]

never spead of the clear cloud, it makes some people green with envy.... :D

(totally inside joke)

I think I get it

[Syn7]

Notice how this thread is only interesting when somebody is being an *******?

God bless trollogy!!!

[lkfmdc]

Notice how this thread is only interesting when somebody is being an *******?



I resemble that remark!

:p

[Kymus]

Notice how this thread is only interesting when somebody is being an *******?

God bless trollogy!!!

That is very true

[Kymus]

HEY GUYZ!

SHOA CHOY HUNG KUNG FU! (http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/robertsmith/)

IT IS LEET
IT IS DEADLY
IT IS ALL YOUR BASE!

..............and how the hell can you name it after 2 arts you never studied and 1 art you barely studied :confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Kymus]

Someone please start a "Is Shao Choy Hung for real?" thread and invite them all to join the trolling...... please?

[lkfmdc]

who wouldn't want to learn with this guy!

:eek:

:(

:eek:

[Kymus]

who was that nutter that had like 15 or 20 dans and had stripe going down the sleeve of his uniform??

[Syn7]

who wouldn't want to learn with this guy!

:eek:

:(

:eek:

This guy is gonna die of a stroke in less than a decade...

[Old Noob]

Someone please start a "Is Shao Choy Hung for real?" thread and invite them all to join the trolling...... please?

We'll need to find some Shao Choy Hung kool aid drinkers to **** off. Otherwise it won't be interesting.

[Kymus]

We'll need to find some Shao Choy Hung kool aid drinkers to **** off. Otherwise it won't be interesting.

Yeah. I doubt this guy has a zillion schools :mad:

So much for that idea.

We could always bribe Ross to start a "Is Shaolin Real?" thread. Wait, that's the other thread, and he already derailed it like a truck off a cliff in a blind turn. Oh well.

[Judge Pen]

(Some liberties and sweeping generalizations have been made for simplification, humor, and Hollywood special effects. We apologize for the inconvenience and wish you a good day)


Op: Is Shaolin Do for realz??:confused:
Gene: D'oh!
Forum: OMGzzzz noooooooo
SD: YES!! IT IS TEH REALZ
Forum: NOOOOOOO BS BS BS
SD: IT IS TEH 4RLZ 4LYF!
Troll: Trololololololololol
SD: (*&*^%&^%$@(*&$#
Forum: Lulz
Former SD guy: Screw you guyz, I'm goin home
SD KoolAid Drinker No. 1: I'll put you in a body bag!!!
Former SD: )%&$%(*%$
SD KoolAid: )(*^%^&*^% to you too! I'll hit you so hard your momma will pheel it!
Educated forum member: No it isn't real
SD: Yes, but no, but yes
SD KoolAid: Uh noooooooooo. BS. U sux
Educated forum member: .....................:rolleyes:
SD: (*%^(*&^()*
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: :mad:
SD KooAid: %%$)(*&@*(&^@*(&^@$#)&*&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene: STFU or ya'll gonna get it!
Forum: Zzzzzzzz
Educated forum member: I think it's really xyz
SD: :Yes but no but yes
SD KoolAid: BS BS BS BS BS BS BS!!!!!!
Educated forum member: No srsly
SD KoolAid: :rolleyes:
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: $(*$&)(&@)_!(%$&)(%*$^&*@!^%#%^
SD KoolAid: I am a lethal weapon and will kill you with my eyes!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
N00b: OMGz it's not real! They wear gi's! Why do they wear gi's?!
SD: :rolleyes: read the thread from page 1
SD KoolAid: I WILL FUX U UP BRO!
Gene: No, SRSLY, STFU. Lawsuites and stuffs. SRSBIZNES
Forum: lawlz
N00b: TL;DR
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Educated forum member: You know......
SD: Maybe....
SD KoolAid: (*^&*&(^%&*)(*(*&*(^& FU
Troll: TOLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: *(&^@#&(@^#(*&!!!!!
SD KoolAid: !@#*(&^$&*!@*#)*(&$^*#^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)

BREAKING NEWS! SPECIAL WORLDWIDE REPORT! SD ISN'T REALZ! Sin The sez: I make it up and tell gwai lo it real Shaolin so I no seem boastful. :cool:

SD: :eek::confused::mad:
SD KoolAid: Oh. Oops? But waitaminute..........
Forum: Duh
SD: (Chatter amongst themselves about forms and SD topics. All is peaceful)
Troll: TROLOLOLOLOLOL
SD: (*$&#$)^*&@^(*&^!(*&^##$

FIN.

That was ****ing awesome!

[Judge Pen]

KFM is like the Wuxia of the internet. It's not KFM without lots of mudslinging. JP said it best with "it's like people think that if you can't say something negative, don't say anything at all".
Likely due to seriously absurd claims made by the faithful few, some folks find it to be really insulting
Until SD can come clean and be honest about what it is, it's going to stick out like a sore thumb, despite revelations and dead horse beating



I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is.

1. LOL. I don't even remember saying that, but it's true.

2. That will not change. Too many people willing to drink kool aid and carry a torch without any real thought behind it.

3. SD, as an organization, won't "come clean". Too many people are invested in their own little kingdom to do that. At the end of the day, all I have are my own thoughts on SD and the security in knowing that whatever it is, I can make it work for me.

PS. I never learned monkey beaks. Must have missed that class.

[Kymus]

1. LOL. I don't even remember saying that, but it's true.

2. That will not change. Too many people willing to drink kool aid and carry a torch without any real thought behind it.

3. SD, as an organization, won't "come clean". Too many people are invested in their own little kingdom to do that. At the end of the day, all I have are my own thoughts on SD and the security in knowing that whatever it is, I can make it work for me.

PS. I never learned monkey beaks. Must have missed that class.

You mentioned how people will make tons of comments on a form, but when Shaolin Wookie posts his forms and does them nicely, it's quiet and it's like the old saying of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". You mentioned that on here, it's the opposite :D. It was somewhere on this thread.

At this point, SD has been done to death on this forum and I think this thread has pieced together most of the missing pieces. We don't get people talking about all the old debunked garbage (the steeles, the Grandmaster of all Shaolin, the "old Kung fu", the "you do wushu we do Kung Fu"), so personally, I don't really care. But Jake Mace and those like him........ ooooooh boy. It doesn't help that Jake Mace's videos are all over YouTube.

The monkey beak and mantis beak - I think - is a strike with the top of the hand or the wrist. :confused::confused:

and yeah, I know SD as an organization will never come clean. It's unfortunate for everyone. Well, except Sin The and some of his underlings.

[Kymus]

That was ****ing awesome!

I'm tellin' ya, if Ross can provide the photoshops, I can so turn this in to a motion picture! :D


...........I'll just need a kickstarter so I can pay my buddy that does "animation"...:p


Coming.... 2014:


Is Shaolin Do for Real? The Movie!

[Almost A Ghost]

Someone please start a "Is Shao Choy Hung for real?" thread and invite them all to join the trolling...... please?

Yes, it's for real.



This guy is gonna die of a stroke in less than a decade...

He died in 2006.

[Kymus]

Yes, it's for real..

How can an art named after Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Choy Lay Fut be real when the Sijo doesn't have a rank in any of them :confused:

[Kymus]

HSK is gonna have a field day on this one...

[Almost A Ghost]

How can an art named after Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Choy Lay Fut be real when the Sijo doesn't have a rank in any of them :confused:

When I meant "It's real" I meant in the way that it's a real webpage, he was a real person, who was really practicing and teaching that system.

Honestly, when I first saw it I thought it was a joke page.'

As far as what he was teaching being real... I doubt it. Seemed like another Kenpo guy who woke up one morning and thought he was doing Kung Fu.

[Kymus]

When I meant "It's real" I meant in the way that it's a real webpage, he was a real person, who was really practicing and teaching that system.

Honestly, when I first saw it I thought it was a joke page.'

As far as what he was teaching being real... I doubt it. Seemed like another Kenpo guy who woke up one morning and thought he was doing Kung Fu.

:p:p that's what I mean by real ;)

[Syn7]

Yes, it's for real.




He died in 2006.

Was it a stroke?

[Almost A Ghost]

Was it a stroke?

Pulmonary failure @ 58 years old.

There's a thread about him at Martial Talk.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/19284-Anyone-heard-of-this-guy

He lied about being a Navy Seal and a hand-to-hand combat instructor.

[hskwarrior]

... and HSK sucks.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker%2FWKOngazSr28QmFO78CPS_liar.jpg

keep telling yourself that as long as it feels good to you.

[hskwarrior]

HSK is gonna have a field day on this one...

i'm not touching that one bro!!!!! LOL

[hskwarrior]

Bring your fat ass to my county and we will see how you do.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/03/08/dukesofhazzard1-a3a6bb94493438118784c9669ee8326b45b5e408-s6-c30.jpg

[Kymus]

Pulmonary failure @ 58 years old.

There's a thread about him at Martial Talk.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/19284-Anyone-heard-of-this-guy

He lied about being a Navy Seal and a hand-to-hand combat instructor.

BWAHAHA! I had a feeling about that when I saw him.

[Old Noob]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker%2FWKOngazSr28QmFO78CPS_liar.jpg

keep telling yourself that as long as it feels good to you.

Your sucking doesn't even feel good to me. You even suck at sucking.

[hskwarrior]

Your sucking doesn't even feel good to me. You even suck at sucking.

i hear your cousin calling you back to bed.....go now.

[Old Noob]

i hear your cousin calling you back to bed.....go now.

What a scathing retort. Consider me truly humbled. I'll never step to your rhetorical superiority again. Mea maxima culpa. You win the internets.

[Judge Pen]

I did enjoy the Rosco P. Coltrane photo. Props for that one.

[hskwarrior]

What a scathing retort.

hahahahahahahahahahaha :D


Consider me truly humbled.

ROTFLMAO


I'll never step to your rhetorical superiority again. Mea maxima culpa. You win the internets.

more ROTFLMAO........

[Judge Pen]

You mentioned how people will make tons of comments on a form, but when Shaolin Wookie posts his forms and does them nicely, it's quiet and it's like the old saying of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". You mentioned that on here, it's the opposite :D. It was somewhere on this thread.

Ah, that refreshed my recollection. Man, I've posted too much on this forum. I've never endeavored to go back and read it from the begining, but I'm sure it would be interesting to see my own thoughts and perspectives evolve over the last ten years. I'm sure it would remind me of my favorite Emerson quote:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

Cause, really, how many great quotes use the work "hobgoblin"?

[sean_stonehart]

Ah, that refreshed my recollection. Man, I've posted too much on this forum. I've never endeavored to go back and read it from the begining, but I'm sure it would be interesting to see my own thoughts and perspectives evolve over the last ten years. I'm sure it would remind me of my favorite Emerson quote:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

Cause, really, how many great quotes use the work "hobgoblin"?

Hobgoblin truly is a choice word in that context.

Although, he could've said "booger" and garnered the same effect... :eek:

[Syn7]

Pulmonary failure @ 58 years old.

There's a thread about him at Martial Talk.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/19284-Anyone-heard-of-this-guy

He lied about being a Navy Seal and a hand-to-hand combat instructor.

Yup... didn't need a phd to call that one!!!

Maybe I'm a cold *******, but I don't feel anything but relief when people like that die.

It's like this neo con I was "debating" with awhile ago. After 10 minutes of insane bigotry, racial slurs and talk about jesus, he's like "you know you can never sway me, right?" and I'm like "yeah, we're actually after your kids minds and after that we just wait for you to expire."

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm like "yeah, we're actually after your kids minds and after that we just wait for you to expire."

:eek: That is awesome. :D

[Kymus]

Ah, that refreshed my recollection. Man, I've posted too much on this forum. I've never endeavored to go back and read it from the begining, but I'm sure it would be interesting to see my own thoughts and perspectives evolve over the last ten years. I'm sure it would remind me of my favorite Emerson quote:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

Cause, really, how many great quotes use the work "hobgoblin"?

I recently read through the first 900 pages.

At first it was for the lulz, because I remember when the SD hoopla started on this forum and I remember when this thread started. Then later it became interesting because some really knowledgeable forum members came on here trying to explain the details of real Kung Fu (partly to smack sense in to certain kool aid drinker(s) and partly just to discuss with basically the rest of the SD folks that were pretty level headed for the most part throughout the entirety of this thread).

I took a lot of notes on what certain educated forum members said; I thought it was really useful.

From what I remember, you've always been real level headed throughout the discussion. There were one or two times that I was surprised by a remark you made (you prob got tired of trolling or something), but........ I've seen some of my old comments on this board.... ones I totally forgot about.... I'm tempted to find them and delete them because they're so d@mned embarrassing (I was like 19 at the time or something :p)

It was funny to see how there would be phases in this thread, much like I explained in my script for Is Shaolin Do For Real? The Movie™. Of course, what happened on page 900 is what really makes the movie :D:p

Really, if one can stand to take the time, a lot can be learned from reading through this thread. I think the unofficial history of SD is also contained in here as well, lol. If anyone wants to understand what SD is, I just point them to this thread and say "read".

[Kymus]

It's like this neo con I was "debating" with awhile ago. After 10 minutes of insane bigotry, racial slurs and talk about jesus, he's like "you know you can never sway me, right?" and I'm like "yeah, we're actually after your kids minds and after that we just wait for you to expire."

It's teh liberal agendaz!! :eek: He admits that the librul agenda exists!!


https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p480x480/8577_643594269001956_1808361250_n.jpg

(for the record, I'm a Progressive Libertarian, I hate both parties equally, and I think Rush Limbaugh is as much of a deceptive, lieing fatass as Michael Moore. So before anyone tries to go there, just don't. What Limbaugh said here is true. It's also hypocritical. If you think that any big-time pundit on either side of the aisle has your best interests in mind and is out there for anything other than a paycheck, I think you need to re-examine everything you believe in life.)

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/994285_10151528305862732_370706542_n.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

(for the record, I'm a Progressive Libertarian, I hate both parties equally, and I think Rush Limbaugh is as much of a deceptive, lieing fatass as Michael Moore. So before anyone tries to go there, just don't. What Limbaugh said here is true. It's also hypocritical. If you think that any big-time pundit on either side of the aisle has your best interests in mind and is out there for anything other than a paycheck, I think you need to re-examine everything you believe in life.)

You and I could get along....

[Kymus]

You and I could get along....

:D:D:p;)

123423

[Old Noob]

I recently read through the first 900 pages.

At first it was for the lulz, because I remember when the SD hoopla started on this forum and I remember when this thread started. Then later it became interesting because some really knowledgeable forum members came on here trying to explain the details of real Kung Fu (partly to smack sense in to certain kool aid drinker(s) and partly just to discuss with basically the rest of the SD folks that were pretty level headed for the most part throughout the entirety of this thread).

I took a lot of notes on what certain educated forum members said; I thought it was really useful.

From what I remember, you've always been real level headed throughout the discussion. There were one or two times that I was surprised by a remark you made (you prob got tired of trolling or something), but........ I've seen some of my old comments on this board.... ones I totally forgot about.... I'm tempted to find them and delete them because they're so d@mned embarrassing (I was like 19 at the time or something :p)

It was funny to see how there would be phases in this thread, much like I explained in my script for Is Shaolin Do For Real? The Movie™. Of course, what happened on page 900 is what really makes the movie :D:p

Really, if one can stand to take the time, a lot can be learned from reading through this thread. I think the unofficial history of SD is also contained in here as well, lol. If anyone wants to understand what SD is, I just point them to this thread and say "read".

Its a lot of really good information with a soap opera and bad reality TV all mixed in.

[Kymus]

Its a lot of really good information with a soap opera and bad reality TV all mixed in.

lol indeed!

[Empty_Cup]

...If anyone wants to understand what SD is, I just point them to this thread and say "read".

I've read this thread from the beginning too, and that is a scary thought. This thread basically captures all the speculation but is hardly the SD history we all want to know. The only people who can shed light on that history, really, is Sin/Hsiang The and GMIe. And they aren't talking.

So in the mean time, I'm a big fan of teachers being honest about where they learned material from and what they know about it. There are plenty of great teachers remaining in the system and they shouldn't be discredited for honing skills that were taught to them. Are these skills real Shaolin? Probably not. Are these skills real gong fu? I think so.

[Kymus]

This thread basically captures all the speculation but is hardly the SD history we all want to know. The only people who can shed light on that history, really, is Sin/Hsiang The and GMIe. And they aren't talking.

True, but I think these speculations are probably accurate to a good %.


Are these skills real Shaolin? Probably not. Are these skills real gong fu? I think so.

I'd disagree with you to a point, there.

It more than likely has Kung Fu roots, but I dunno if we can really call it Kung Fu today because of the great amount of influence IMA had on it while in Indonesia.

Pardon me for using a Karate analogy but...

Obviously there are great similarities between certain southern Chinese arts and Karate. But is (traditional) Karate hakka-inspired Kung Fu? No, it's its own animal because of specific influences.

I think if we could remove the stuff ST made up, remove the stuff that was from books, we could probably have an interesting discussion on what SD is (if it's anything other than SD, that is. But didn't Mas Judt say it was Kun Tao? Or did he just say it resembled it a lot?). Of course, this discussion would be interrupted, derailed, and trolled many, many times; that's how you know you got a good thread going around here :p

(addendum: I think considering the stuff from books and the stuff ST made up, the closest thing we will probably get for the art as far as classification goes is an Indonesian Kempo (for lack of a more appropriate Indonesian term))

[Alex Córdoba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6FUR_nhGX8

[hskwarrior]

nah THIS is the best kung fu ever......its called KUNGARATE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4

[Kymus]

nah THIS is the best kung fu ever......its called KUNGARATE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4

Jake Mace: The lost tapes

[hskwarrior]

jake mace: The lost tapes

lmao:d:d:d

[hskwarrior]

I think if we could remove the stuff ST made up, remove the stuff that was from books, we could probably have an interesting discussion on what SD is (if it's anything other than SD, that is.

that would leaven them wth only one or two forms to speak of.

[Judge Pen]

that would leaven them wth only one or two forms to speak of.

Actually, by my count it would be 30 to 40 forms. Some of the stuff that Sin The claimed to make up was taught independantly in Indonesia (the videos that were removed confirmed that). So you look at all the SD material that is unique to SD and cross reference it with what Hiang The is teaching and that's a pretty good indicator of the unique SD material. Add some of the other material that we know came from Indonesia (Buddha Fist, Ground Dragon, 14th and 15th Crane) and that's a list of material that I feel fairly confident is unique to SD.

All the stuff that is taught elsewhere: taiji, bagua, xingyi, hua, the identifiable mantis forms, etc., then that could have been pilfered from other sources or some of that material could have been taught in Indonesia (will will never know which is which).

[Judge Pen]

From what I remember, you've always been real level headed throughout the discussion. There were one or two times that I was surprised by a remark you made (you prob got tired of trolling or something), but........ I've seen some of my old comments on this board.... ones I totally forgot about.... I'm tempted to find them and delete them because they're so d@mned embarrassing (I was like 19 at the time or something :p)

It was funny to see how there would be phases in this thread, much like I explained in my script for Is Shaolin Do For Real? The Movie™. Of course, what happened on page 900 is what really makes the movie :D:p

Really, if one can stand to take the time, a lot can be learned from reading through this thread. I think the unofficial history of SD is also contained in here as well, lol. If anyone wants to understand what SD is, I just point them to this thread and say "read".

I know I've lost my temper from time to time. I may have let myself post angry, but only if I was drinking at the same time. Many a time I've waited until the next day to respond to something to make sure I had a cool head in my response.

I think if you edit out the trolls (sorry HSK most of your posts wouldn't make the cut), then it would be an interesting read to anyone interested in SD and it's real origins.

[bawang]

I think if you edit out the trolls (sorry HSK most of your posts wouldn't make the cut), then it would be an interesting read to anyone interested in SD and it's real origins.

shaolin do is a troll of the martial arts world. its a disgrace.

[Kymus]

I know I've lost my temper from time to time. I may have let myself post angry, but only if I was drinking at the same time. Many a time I've waited until the next day to respond to something to make sure I had a cool head in my response.

From what I recall, it came off as a koolaid response :eek: which has never been your style because you never gave a d@mn about the stories (that, and I think you said your teacher never really bothered with them much). Hard to explain, as I don't remember it clearly. It was only once or twice, and it may have been a backlash against serious trolling, not sure ;)


I think if you edit out the trolls (sorry HSK most of your posts wouldn't make the cut), then it would be an interesting read to anyone interested in SD and it's real origins.

:p :p lol

[Kymus]

I also remember Bawangs gold contribution to the thread:


Yes, shaolin do is real


I lied, shaolin do isn't real

[Kymus]

Actually, by my count it would be 30 to 40 forms. Some of the stuff that Sin The claimed to make up was taught independantly in Indonesia (the videos that were removed confirmed that). So you look at all the SD material that is unique to SD and cross reference it with what Hiang The is teaching and that's a pretty good indicator of the unique SD material. Add some of the other material that we know came from Indonesia (Buddha Fist, Ground Dragon, 14th and 15th Crane) and that's a list of material that I feel fairly confident is unique to SD.

All the stuff that is taught elsewhere: taiji, bagua, xingyi, hua, the identifiable mantis forms, etc., then that could have been pilfered from other sources or some of that material could have been taught in Indonesia (will will never know which is which).

Will the real Shaolin-Do please stand up
please stand up, please stand up

[hskwarrior]

Actually, by my count it would be 30 to 40 forms. Some of the stuff that Sin The claimed to make up was taught independantly in Indonesia (the videos that were removed confirmed that). So you look at all the SD material that is unique to SD and cross reference it with what Hiang The is teaching and that's a pretty good indicator of the unique SD material. Add some of the other material that we know came from Indonesia (Buddha Fist, Ground Dragon, 14th and 15th Crane) and that's a list of material that I feel fairly confident is unique to SD.

All the stuff that is taught elsewhere: taiji, bagua, xingyi, hua, the identifiable mantis forms, etc., then that could have been pilfered from other sources or some of that material could have been taught in Indonesia (will will never know which is which).

so where did the monkey beaks come from? Indonesia?

[Kymus]

At least 3 people have come onto this thread who had the potential and willingness to share a little of the origins of Shaolin Do. They were trolled, ignored, or insulted. Leads me to believe that even Shaolin Do people do not really want the truth. There is some information out there but it takes a lot of digging to find it without help from people that know, why would they help you if you can not even show a minimum of interest and gratitude?

Speaking as a non-SD person who has read the entirety of this thread, I think any negative reaction from the SD crowd (aside from a few hardcore koolaid drinkers) has been likely due to the fact that anyone can come on here and claim anything. Couple that with the fact that these guys get trolled regularly, and you've got something that requires a good amount of knowledge and proof to be deemed trustworthy.

[Empty_Cup]

so where did the monkey beaks come from? Indonesia?

Who other than Jake Mace has ever mentioned monkey beaks?

[Kymus]

so where did the monkey beaks come from? Indonesia?

My guess is either Jake Mace or the Soards. JP said he's never heard of that cr@p.


I never learned monkey beaks. Must have missed that class.

[Kymus]

Who other than Jake Mace has ever mentioned monkey beaks?

Has anyone else here trained with the Soards?

Though... I think Jake Mace is kinda eccentric with how he teaches.. so it wouldn't surprised me if it's his way of dumbing things down or some nonsense.

[Empty_Cup]

At least 3 people have come onto this thread who had the potential and willingness to share a little of the origins of Shaolin Do. They were trolled, ignored, or insulted. Leads me to believe that even Shaolin Do people do not really want the truth. There is some information out there but it takes a lot of digging to find it without help from people that know, why would they help you if you can not even show a minimum of interest and gratitude?

So are you saying SD or non-SD people were doing the trolling? I think for the most part the SD people on here have been far and away the more level-headed and respectful...

[Old Noob]

But didn't Mas Judt say it was Kun Tao? Or did he just say it resembled it a lot?).

He said that he was looking into some information or had some information that showed that it was Kun Tao. It was very cryptic. Then he dropped the mic and left the room seldom to return (and never with the information). I would have liked to have heard what he knew in more detail.

[Old Noob]

I think if you edit out the trolls (sorry HSK most of your posts wouldn't make the cut), then it would be an interesting read to anyone interested in SD and it's real origins.

It would also be only about 100 pages. :)

[Empty_Cup]

Has anyone else here trained with the Soards?

Though... I think Jake Mace is kinda eccentric with how he teaches.. so it wouldn't surprised me if it's his way of dumbing things down or some nonsense.

The video that first sparked HSK's tirade was of Jake Mace, IIRC. And from what I remember (it's been awhile) he was basically doing a monkey form and said, "hold your hand like this...kind of like a beak."

Other than that, I've also never heard anybody talk about monkey beaks.

So, yeah, like somebody mentioned before: hsk sucks :D

[hskwarrior]

So, yeah, like somebody mentioned before: hsk sucks

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAy1HFrExN7Zmob7x-UdHVMS9E5zOFe_Pn0gYZQTP31MCZbkeJ


The video that first sparked HSK's tirade was of Jake Mace, IIRC. And from what I remember (it's been awhile) he was basically doing a monkey form and said, "hold your hand like this...kind of like a beak."

why does the MONKEY do a TIGER Dive? huh???????? speak up!!!
it's like saying "the crane flies through the skies like a monkey from tree to tree." LMAO

[hskwarrior]

So are you saying SD or non-SD people were doing the trolling? I think for the most part the SD people on here have been far and away the more level-headed and respectful...

you kinda have to. in this kung fu world, you're like unwanted guests. LOL

[Kymus]

So are you saying SD or non-SD people were doing the trolling? I think for the most part the SD people on here have been far and away the more level-headed and respectful...

technically speaking... it was a mess when this thread started. After that.. it was def 2 or 3 koolaid drinkers. 2 of them wanted to be tuff guys, and the other was basically yelling at "us" saying how "we" only do "wushu" and he does real kung fu.

So it really depends on the time period.

[Judge Pen]

so where did the monkey beaks come from? Indonesia?

From Jake Mace as far as I can tell. I did SD for 20 years and never heard of monkey beaks, but my teachers were not the same as Mace's so who knows what the hell the Soards teach out there.

[Kymus]

From Jake Mace as far as I can tell. I did SD for 20 years and never heard of monkey beaks, but my teachers were not the same as Mace's so who knows what the hell the Soards teach out there.

Anyone wanna go undercover and train there for a month to tell us how crazy it is over there? :D :D

[Iron Palm]

Has anyone else here trained with the Soards?

Though... I think Jake Mace is kinda eccentric with how he teaches.. so it wouldn't surprised me if it's his way of dumbing things down or some nonsense.

I've trained with them, but was never one of their "students".

None of the instructors on the west side were ever very specific with posture names, and even less so with using consistent terminology to refer to individual movements. It was always just a lot of "now punch this direction, now turn and punch that direction with your fist horizontal" etc. If a particular movement showed up enough times in a given form, or in several forms, it was usually given a nickname that the particular instructor thought was fitting.

One example was "monkey roll", the nickname for a kind of diagonal somersault over the shoulder featured in non-monkey forms. Another was "beak(s)", the nickname for a hand position that never made much sense to me but was used in probably 60% of the forms I learned.

The only real consistency I encountered in naming was with the stances, with 4 standing out in my memory: horse stance, bow stance, jade ring stance, and monkey stance. As with the previous examples, one might find a "horse" stance outside of a non-horse form, and the same is true for "monkey" stance.

SD instructors (at least the ones i've known) tend to be fairly sloppy in their instruction because they aren't provided with the guiding principles or essences of the systems they're taught, so they just kind of "run what they brung". I don't fault the junior ones for that, I fault the so-called masters.

Anyway, I've known several of the instructors to blurt out things like "monkey beaks" in a posture with both a "monkey" stance and "beak" hands, just to help the student understand what they want them to do. As far as I know, they weren't saying the posture was called "monkey beaks".

I'm not a fan of the Soards or of anyone I trained with, so this shouldn't be taken as a defense of them or SD. However, of the many criticisms that can be leveled against SD, "monkey beaks" is probably the most asinine.

[Iron Palm]

Anyone wanna go undercover and train there for a month to tell us how crazy it is over there? :D :D

I spent some time with him a while back, and I can tell you that he definitely does things his own way. I've personally observed him learn things and immediately begin practicing them differently, so much so that it led me to question whether we had been watching the same person (not that the Soards and/or GMT were worthy of direct emulation anyway).

I've also seen him teach the same form markedly differently from year to year, but then so did my other instructors, so I don't know if that's his problem alone. Actually, the lack of consistency is what ultimately drove me to quit SD altogether. The "original, deadly, ancient, ultimate, perfected, shaolin" forms were changing every time they were taught.

[Kymus]

Thanks for the info, Iron Palm!

Really, the beak thing is just a criticism of Jake Mace; it's that among many other obvious things.

..and man, what is it with the Soards? No one but their students seem to like them (and even then....). They sound to me like a bunch of money grubbing a$$es that build up a cult of personality about ST and... I feel like I should take a shower just thinking about them. I think I've heard about them more than anyone in SD!

[bodhi warrior]

Actually, by my count it would be 30 to 40 forms. Some of the stuff that Sin The claimed to make up was taught independantly in Indonesia (the videos that were removed confirmed that). So you look at all the SD material that is unique to SD and cross reference it with what Hiang The is teaching and that's a pretty good indicator of the unique SD material. Add some of the other material that we know came from Indonesia (Buddha Fist, Ground Dragon, 14th and 15th Crane) and that's a list of material that I feel fairly confident is unique to SD.

All the stuff that is taught elsewhere: taiji, bagua, xingyi, hua, the identifiable mantis forms, etc., then that could have been pilfered from other sources or some of that material could have been taught in Indonesia (will will never know which is which).

I agree. The core material that's shared between Hiang and Sin is what was learned in Indonesia. And that's some of the stuff I like the most.

[Lucas]

Anyone wanna go undercover and train there for a month to tell us how crazy it is over there? :D :D

if i was there i would do it for the sh!ts and giggles.

i remember watching some mantis garbage of his and when he was using an arm wrapping 'technique' he refered to his hand as a mantis beak....

[Kymus]

if i was there i would do it for the sh!ts and giggles.

i remember watching some mantis garbage of his and when he was using an arm wrapping 'technique' he refered to his hand as a mantis beak....

I think we should raise money and then send you and Bawang there with hidden cameras.

.....................I don't think Bawang would last a day without getting himself thrown out :p

Really, I've got nothing against SD teachers (well, except Jake Mace, who should really know better than to call what he does "ancient Kung Fu"), but the Soards seem to be the lowest denominator of what is essentially a dysfunctional family.

[kwaichang]

I can see by watching the youtube vids of mace why people think SD is a sucky system. He sucks. A Tae Kwon do guy who cant do the SD system like it should be done. Also I have never heard the term Monkey Beak, in one form Shaolin Bae Yen Tang Lang Chien it has the word monkey hand to describe a hand position but that is it. I am aware of the History and the non Chinese style emphasis placed in Sd, and feel it is like most systems , and has been altered by time . It happened in HK , Taiwan , Korea , Hawaii and America. So why shouldnt it happen in Indonesia? I respect all MaA if they train hard, and all the effort put into a system. While I am shamed by The tales in SD i am not ashamed of the effort / time I have expressed in SD. When by body is well I will put my skills forms and sparring and application and mechanics against anyone. " not meant as a challenge" but as far as Mace is concerned I would not want to be around him , I may have to come out of fighting retirement. KC

[kwaichang]

This clip has some forms to watch. It is not Mace and was from a Tourney. KC
http://youtu.be/nRXqHBK1Eyw

[Kymus]

I can see by watching the youtube vids of mace why people think SD is a sucky system.

Dude, people have had that perception of SD since before Jake Mace started spamming YouTube with his cr@ppy videos. I was here before this thread got started and back then there was still that perception because - as has been discussed throughout the past decade-plus - the forms for 99% of SD practitioners are cr@p. I'm not even talking about not perfect. I'm talking, just plain bad, man.


A Tae Kwon do guy who cant do the SD system like it should be done.

How should it be done? :confused:

99% of the videos that have been posted have been universally agreed: they were terrible. When I say "universal" I'm including SD folks, too.

It seems to me that there is no standard as to how it should look. I mean, I haven't seen any SD practitioner here - current or former - say how it should look. It seems to be one big area of confusion.

The only SD forms I've seen that I thought were well really well done were from Shaolin Wookie. Of the Elder Masters I've seen, I guess if you don't base their performance on KF, then they did a good job. But basing it on Kung Fu? Ehhhh....


Also I have never heard the term Monkey Beak, in one form Shaolin Bae Yen Tang Lang Chien it has the word monkey hand to describe a hand position but that is it.

Seems like the Soards invented it; along with who-knows-what-else.


I am aware of the History and the non Chinese style emphasis placed in Sd, and feel it is like most systems , and has been altered by time . It happened in HK , Taiwan , Korea , Hawaii and America.

When you take Kung Fu and put it in Hong Kong or the Hakka region, it does look different, but it still follows Kung Fu principles. You can look at it and say "yeah, that looks like Kung Fu to me". I'm really interested in the Hakka arts like Southern Praying Mantis and Bak Mei. It looks real unique, but you can still tell it's Kung Fu.


So why shouldnt it happen in Indonesia?

Japanese Kung Fu = Karate
Japanese Shaolin = Shorinji
Indonesian Kung Fu = Kun Tao
Shaolin Do Kung Fu = Maybe Kun Tao and something else? :confused:

No one really knows what Shaolin Do is. It's not Karate, it's not Kung Fu, it may be Kun Tao, but we're not sure.

If Sin The just called it Chung Yen Indo-Chinese Martial Arts, stuck with the original curriculum, etc. then there'd probably be a lot less hoopla over SD.

[hskwarrior]

that made my stomach turn. why is the movement so HORRIBLE....i couldn't get passed 1:50 without cringing..........at 4:21 WHERE IS THEIR HORSE AT??????? did they leave it at home? 8:08 was so boring i fell asleep. so lifeless...BLAND. the double man short stick demo was like two little kids with tree limbs pretend sword fighting at 13:26. its so embarrassing to see so called "BLACK BELTS" doing a demo where they look like they're not even giving one ounce of effort.

the form at 20:28 is SOOOOOOOOOO derived from my lineages 5 animal form.i mean its PAINFULLY obvious (and gave me an upset stomach). GARBAGE! straight up disgusting!!!!!!

at 39:13 i got that guy beat hands down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RvA-_6PrjA


i couldn't watch any further......

[Kymus]

This clip has some forms to watch. It is not Mace and was from a Tourney. KC
http://youtu.be/nRXqHBK1Eyw

Ok, I didn't watch all of it, but here goes...

The first two forms were bad. There's no jing, no power. It looks like they're just waving their arms around.

If you can find it, watch Iron & Silk. That move may help put things in to perspective. It's a true story about when Mark Salzman went to China to teach english and then started learning Kung Fu from GM Pan Qing-Fu. It's out of print these days, but it's a fantastic film (Salzman wrote a book about it too, by the same name. Also good).

The sparring looked like a typical Karate sparring match. Of course, most KF schools look like sloppy kickboxers, so that's not a swipe against just SD. It's rare to see a school that fights like they train, but I have seen it.

The fan form was horrendous. I mean, not just how it was performed, but just the form itself was bad.

Here's a decent fan form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BU59iE9nrw) from Choy Lay Fut. It's not done as fast and as powerful as it should be (likely due to space limitations, or something else).

Here's a good form that's done really bad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQjW5eKo0l0). I know this form; I own the DVD :D. I know I don't do the form perfectly, but I know I can do it 100x better than this.

(Yo HSK: is the form in the video (DVD) heavily marked? Cause the way the person is doing it here, it looks a lot different.)

The form done after the fan form is very Shaolin Do. It's got speed and power, but it's so freakin' jerky! It may be alright if we compare it to something else other than Kung Fu, but by Kung Fu standards? No, bad. No flow, jerky movements.

[hskwarrior]

(Yo HSK: is the form in the video (DVD) heavily marked? Cause the way the chick is doing it here, it looks a lot different.)

In DFW's video, its marked. however there are no other forms remotely close to this one at all and because we know our form, even if one tries to disguise it, its very clear to US and we could EASILY pick apart EXACTLY what was ours and what what added or changed.

for me, its so crystal clear.

[Kymus]

In DFW's video, its marked. however there are no other forms remotely close to this one at all and because we know our form, even if one tries to disguise it, its very clear to US and we could EASILY pick apart EXACTLY what was ours and what what added or changed.

for me, its so crystal clear.

Does it differ greatly from the one I showed? It seem like the same form to me, but I'm noticing numerous differences.

[kwaichang]

I neversaid they were good I just said here are some forms. My forms I do in SD dont look like theirs, but I had 10 years 7star and Hung Jia prior to SD , anyway i am not arguing that I have seen better cause I have. They are just demo forms performed by new 1st degree BB mostly KC

[kwaichang]

Saw Iron and silk great movie. KC

[hskwarrior]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/4683_88325897731_7635716_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

Does it differ greatly from the one I showed? It seem like the same form to me, but I'm noticing numerous differences.

dfw's form is different than what i saw in the SD tourney video. but i can precisely point out what are our techniques and what was added in. all in all, its a HORRIBLE display of such treasured gung fu.

[Kymus]

dfw's form is different than what i saw in the SD tourney video. but i can precisely point out what are our techniques and what was added in. all in all, its a HORRIBLE display of such treasured gung fu.

I'm talking about this one, bro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQjW5eKo0l0

:p

edit: ok fixed

[Kymus]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/4683_88325897731_7635716_n.jpg

I'd pay some serious cash to watch Pan Qing-Fu fight in an MMA bout. GM Pan is the man!

[hskwarrior]

personally i don't know THAT form. its still a better performance than that guy....LOL

[Kymus]

personally i don't know THAT form. its still a better performance than that guy....LOL

It looks a lot like the Flying Dragon Fan form that I learned from the DVD, but with lots of alterations.

[hskwarrior]

It looks a lot like the Flying Dragon Fan form that I learned from the DVD, but with lots of alterations.

that form seems to be from the Lee Koon Hung lineage of Choy Lee Fut. its a common misconception that all CLF shares the same forms. even when we have the same name of the forms they can be different from lineage to lineage.

[Kymus]

that form seems to be from the Lee Koon Hung lineage of Choy Lee Fut. its a common misconception that all CLF shares the same forms. even when we have the same name of the forms they can be different from lineage to lineage.

You tellin' me you're not the master of all CLF? My image of you is totally blown now :mad::mad::mad:

Good point though; I should've realized that. I'll have to google that Sifu. I find it odd that there are so many variations but they're doing the movements. Given, I've never been shown a form that was marked and unmarked, but still... I think something is fishy..

[hskwarrior]

You tellin' me you're not the master of all CLF?

Hung Sing Choy lee Fut bro.....i got this!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/183962_10151331370847732_984348581_n.jpg

[Kymus]

Hung Sing Choy lee Fut bro.....i got this!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/183962_10151331370847732_984348581_n.jpg

Ok, I take back what I said. You're bada$$ now :D:D:D:p

[hskwarrior]

I've never been shown a form that was marked and unmarked, but still... I think something is fishy..

if people weren't sooooo shady, there'd be no reason to earmark or even trademark stuff to keep it out of the hands of people like sin the and jake the fake