Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/i5uRUhbxmCc
What about this little demo. KC

[Kymus]

if people weren't sooooo shady, there'd be no reason to earmark or even trademark stuff to keep it out of the hands of people like sin the and jake the fake

You're right, and it's really sad. You'd think that martial artists wouldn't be criminals these days, but the temptation for glory is too much. Dudes these days want everyone to think they're the big bad@ss without putting any real time in to it other than memorization and watching YouTube.

[Kymus]

http://youtu.be/i5uRUhbxmCc
What about this little demo. KC

That's a lot better and doesn't have the typical earmarks of a SD form that most do.

I know almost nothing about chain whips, but I'd say he lacks power through most of the form (not all of it; the tornado kicks were done well and the whipping during and after I thought was good). Without getting in to stances and such, I'd say my biggest criticism is not enough speed and power.

Most SD forms look sloppy. I wouldn't call this one sloppy, but I think it shares a similar criticism of 99% of SD forms out there: lack of speed and power (though, again, to his credit, I'd say 25% - max - has good speed and power)

HSK, what's your impartial opinion on this? You've got more experience with the traditional weapons than I do, I assume.

[hskwarrior]

You're right, and it's really sad. You'd think that martial artists wouldn't be criminals these days, but the temptation for glory is too much. Dudes these days want everyone to think they're the big bad@ss without putting any real time in to it other than memorization and watching YouTube.

thankfully, once someone touches hands with me, or trains with me, they know whether i can back my stuff up or not. but as a teacher, its not about me anymore, its about producing good students who can defend themselves.


HSK, what's your impartial opinion on this? You've got more experience with the traditional weapons than I do, I assume.

your're correct

[Kymus]

thankfully, once someone touches hands with me, or trains with me, they know whether i can back my stuff up or not. but as a teacher, its not about me anymore, its about producing good students who can defend themselves.



your're correct

Wise man once said: "When east and west agree, it is true" :D

[bawang]

http://youtu.be/i5uRUhbxmCc
What about this little demo. KC

lolololololooolololol

[Iron Palm]

I'd wager most SD people would say that a lot of what is on the following video is a good representation of SD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81L_RWfRDFs

I don't know any of the people in it, but I believe the monkey demonstration at 8:57 is the much revered Master Bob Green, and I think the man at 26:18 is Master Gary Mullins. There is also a shirtless broadsoard demo by Grandmaster The at 30:20.

A lot of the demos done by the (then) less senior people, as well as the sparring, are a wash. But would anyone one this board say that the demos by the most senior people in SD aren't being performed the "way they should be"?

In the Soard schools, it's always implied that the further back in SD history you go, the more hard core and skilled everyone was. Is this far enough back to get a sense of what SD is like at its best?

For the record, most of what's on that video is significantly better than what I was exposed to under the Soards.

[kwaichang]

When a demo is demo;d they are supposed to be done full out and balls to the wall. That isnt how demos are done in SD it is so people can see the form and enjoy it that is the way all SD demos I have seen have been presented. KC

[Syn7]

In the Soard schools, it's always implied that the further back in SD history you go, the more hard core and skilled everyone was. Is this far enough back to get a sense of what SD is like at its best?


Ahh... the good ol days that never existed.

[Syn7]

When a demo is demo;d they are supposed to be done full out and balls to the wall. That isnt how demos are done in SD it is so people can see the form and enjoy it that is the way all SD demos I have seen have been presented. KC

Sure, but the fact that we rarely see "balls to the wall" demos, and when they do it's just as bad as the flower version, speaks volumes. You can call this "art" all you want. But if you use the word martial in front of the word art, the implication is that it can actually be used in combat. To call something ineffective a martial art is fraud. It's dangerous and irresponsible. It gives false confidence and it gets people hurt. The only people who are considered even somewhat decent "martial artists" are usually people who are involved, or were involved, in other systems.

[Iron Palm]

When a demo is demo;d they are supposed to be done full out and balls to the wall. That isnt how demos are done in SD it is so people can see the form and enjoy it that is the way all SD demos I have seen have been presented. KC

Judging from the comments of yours I have read over time, you have significantly more years of experience than I do with martial arts in general, and with SD specifically. I am unfamiliar with most of the forms in the video, and I am asking, in a genuinely open-ended way, if the above comment means you think that, say, the broadsword demo by GMT is fundamentally correct, but not performed at full speed and vigor?

As many others have said about the many systems SD attempts to teach, each has its own set of guiding principles and philosophies (and by "philosophies" I don't mean "Turn the other cheek rather than initiate a confrontation", I mean "always keep your body turned when fighting to minimize attackable surface areas") Is your contention that the master-level demos in that video are being performed in accordance with the principles/philosophies of the system of which the forms are a part, and merely being done at slow speed/low intensity? If not, why?

For example, a bagua "principle" might be "keep the weight on the back leg," and so you would expect a bagua master to keep his weight on the back leg when performing a demonstration, regardless of how "balls to the wall" he is doing it. You wouldn't expect a bagua master to begin weighting on the front leg, or ignoring weighting altogether, merely because he is doing a low-intensity demonstration, would you?

[kwaichang]

Stare like a monkey, sit like a tiger , hollow the palm and feet, etc, i know the principles and practice them as best as I can, do I get them right all the time ? NO. Can I use the SD stuff as a Martial Art Yes. Few times in true combat are all the rules adhered to.
I roll my shins with a steel bar 100 x per day 5 days a week. JP has seen and lifted the bar it is rolled steel. If I sweep you shin to shin or you me your leg will break most likely. I punch bags of rocks and palm hit them , one bag is dust the other is waiting to be.
Do all SD people even Master Level do this prob not. Not all BB are good. So while I am at a demo I often Cringe and turn away but I have seen where those people were before and can see improvement. I just love all MA but not all M Artists.
I wish there were better vids of SD people as all are not bad people and many are sincere in what they do.
I wish I had a vid of my forms prior to my injury . You may not be impressed but I do hope you would be a lttle less judgemental about some of the others you have seen. KC

[kwaichang]

When I would teach a form 7 star, Tiger, Hung or eeven western boxing technique I took a move from the form and taught an application the ap was exactly as it was done in the form. Then I would have them work on it. Most of the time they would immediately *******ize the moves to "make them work" that is why the demos with aps and sparring looks as it does. Every one wants to be the next Bruce lee Much like Jake. They all want to own what they have learned but few are willing to work hard enough to claim true ownership. KC

[bodhi warrior]

I'd wager most SD people would say that a lot of what is on the following video is a good representation of SD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81L_RWfRDFs

I don't know any of the people in it, but I believe the monkey demonstration at 8:57 is the much revered Master Bob Green, and I think the man at 26:18 is Master Gary Mullins. There is also a shirtless broadsoard demo by Grandmaster The at 30:20.

A lot of the demos done by the (then) less senior people, as well as the sparring, are a wash. But would anyone one this board say that the demos by the most senior people in SD aren't being performed the "way they should be"?

In the Soard schools, it's always implied that the further back in SD history you go, the more hard core and skilled everyone was. Is this far enough back to get a sense of what SD is like at its best?

For the record, most of what's on that video is significantly better than what I was exposed to under the Soards.

I liked this one. Some good stuff displayed the senior guys.
It's 100 times better than what passes as a demo today.
I really liked it.

[Kellen Bassette]

I roll my shins with a steel bar 100 x per day 5 days a week.

Do you also do shin conditioning on gravel bags, or just the palms, feet..ect?

[kwaichang]

I used to kick makiwara as well and 2x4;s but I cant now . I live in an appartment now I kick sapling trees about 2-3 inches round . till they shake. I also use chinese Jao for healing. due to my injury this training is easy.KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/Fqu9lfZ9aEg
This has some good forms I had them all listed and Times they start at about 40 minutes in , sorry I lost the post KC

[hskwarrior]

When I would teach a form 7 star, Tiger, Hung or eeven western boxing technique I took a move from the form and taught an application the ap was exactly as it was done in the form. Then I would have them work on it. Most of the time they would immediately *******ize the moves to "make them work" that is why the demos with aps and sparring looks as it does. Every one wants to be the next Bruce lee Much like Jake. They all want to own what they have learned but few are willing to work hard enough to claim true ownership. KC

i respect this

[Kymus]

http://youtu.be/Fqu9lfZ9aEg
This has some good forms I had them all listed and Times they start at about 40 minutes in , sorry I lost the post KC

The forms all have the SD flavor. They're either rigid in movements or they're just waving their arms around.

So again, either we compare SD to Kung Fu and the movement should be performed like Kung Fu, or SD is it's own thing and no one has an answer on how a SD form should be done.

[hskwarrior]

The forms all have the SD flavor. They're either rigid in movements or they're just waving their arms around.

true. there is ZERO gung fu in every essence when i say that. also, i couldn't believe my ears when they would speak kind words about the white female performer and when the black guy with the sword who did better then the others IMO and they sounded like he didn't do a good job. one of them say "find out when you get to 46" or something like that.


So again, either we compare SD to Kung Fu and the movement should be performed like Kung Fu, or SD is it's own thing and no one has an answer on how a SD form should be done.

the feeling off of them is like why should be look like THEM, we're NOT them. it looks like no one ever put some serious training in at all. just simply memorized the moves and thats it. and to see black belts on.....oh thats even worse

[Kymus]

the feeling off of them is like why should be look like THEM, we're NOT them. it looks like no one ever put some serious training in at all. just simply memorized the moves and thats it. and to see black belts on.....oh thats even worse

Word on the street is that there is no consensus on how the forms should be done, just that the real old school peeps don't have forms that look 100% horrible.

[kwaichang]

You are correct I have learned the Hsing Ie in SD 3 different ways. Not too different but different non the less This always disturbed me but truthfully what happens is this, Teacher A teaches student B then B to C etcetera and every one of them sems to chang the form in some way. That always sucked to me. But i understand little Nuances being different but whole moves ? Nah. So I train them hard the way I was taught them and try to produce Jing in the moves etc. There are too many pauses at a place of a punch etc but I think this is due to the 1-30 short forms taught one at a time and this bleeds over to the long forms. I taught them one at a time but had the students connect them with flow etc to help with continuity. KC

[Empty_Cup]

Judging from the comments of yours I have read over time, you have significantly more years of experience than I do with martial arts in general, and with SD specifically. I am unfamiliar with most of the forms in the video, and I am asking, in a genuinely open-ended way, if the above comment means you think that, say, the broadsword demo by GMT is fundamentally correct, but not performed at full speed and vigor?

As many others have said about the many systems SD attempts to teach, each has its own set of guiding principles and philosophies (and by "philosophies" I don't mean "Turn the other cheek rather than initiate a confrontation", I mean "always keep your body turned when fighting to minimize attackable surface areas") Is your contention that the master-level demos in that video are being performed in accordance with the principles/philosophies of the system of which the forms are a part, and merely being done at slow speed/low intensity? If not, why?

For example, a bagua "principle" might be "keep the weight on the back leg," and so you would expect a bagua master to keep his weight on the back leg when performing a demonstration, regardless of how "balls to the wall" he is doing it. You wouldn't expect a bagua master to begin weighting on the front leg, or ignoring weighting altogether, merely because he is doing a low-intensity demonstration, would you?

This is a good post. I think that in most SD classes the memorization of the form is given the most priority. Then it's on to the next one. This is a major criticism I have of SD even though I'm a practitioner.

There are exceptions, though, especially as folks get above 2nd or 3rd BB they tend to "specialize" in one style or another and emphasize more of the principles/philosophy you talk about. This might even mean they read a book about theory :eek: or take an outside class/seminar or two :eek: to further pursue their interest in that particular style. I see nothing wrong with continuing to learn as much as you can.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.crackajack.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/monkeysnake.jpeg

[Leto]

Word on the street is that there is no consensus on how the forms should be done, just that the real old school peeps don't have forms that look 100% horrible.

My observation has been that the "old school" guys forms don't really look any better than anyone else's, including Sin The. That's who everyone has learned their forms from. However, they do tend to hit harder due to better conditioning and more time spent on basics. Subsequent generations' forms look much the same, but don't have the same level of physical conditioning. At least the old guys can make up for less than optimal technique with strength and toughness developed through hard training. Later students spend more time just mimicking and memorizing forms.

[kwaichang]

I was a4th BB in Shotokan when I started to take SD. in 92, I was taught the short stick form . I made myself do the form 500 x and work on ap's before learning the next one. One could do this with all forms but they choose not to. That is why thay look as they do. I have figured that I have done the 1st BB Tiger form Ching Ka Fu Hu Chien maybe 1500 times since I started in 92. That may not seem like much but it only took me maybe 10 years to do it. That many times. Poor training methods while doing it is what produces poor tech and form. Toomuch emphasis on just getting them done then on to the next. No Patience in the present. KC

[Kymus]

http://www.crackajack.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/monkeysnake.jpeg

Creator of the golden snake style, I assume

[Judge Pen]

You are correct I have learned the Hsing Ie in SD 3 different ways. Not too different but different non the less This always disturbed me but truthfully what happens is this, Teacher A teaches student B then B to C etcetera and every one of them sems to chang the form in some way. That always sucked to me. But i understand little Nuances being different but whole moves ? Nah. So I train them hard the way I was taught them and try to produce Jing in the moves etc. There are too many pauses at a place of a punch etc but I think this is due to the 1-30 short forms taught one at a time and this bleeds over to the long forms. I taught them one at a time but had the students connect them with flow etc to help with continuity. KC

We used to compare notes on this: I was first taught this way, but I learned it a different way from this teacher. How do you do it. Eventually, it becomes the way you do it whether you want it to or not.

I think it is unfair to compare SD forms to CMA forms (even if the SD form was originally a kung fu form such as Hua Chuan or Xingyi) because it is done with the underylying principals of SD primarily with some consideration given to the uniqueness of the particualr system. In my experience, SD students spend most of their time training short-form and all the forms we do display those principals.

It's my experience that forcing students to learn too many forms aside, SD is a practical art that teaches good fighting fundamentals. I've sparred with many different people of many different styles and I always felt that my skills were on par with the people I was sparring. My forms looked bad, but if we fought, they would know it and have respect for me and my training at the end of the match.

[Judge Pen]

We used to compare notes on this: I was first taught this way, but I learned it a different way from this teacher. How do you do it. Eventually, it becomes the way you do it whether you want it to or not.

I think it is unfair to compare SD forms to CMA forms (even if the SD form was originally a kung fu form such as Hua Chuan or Xingyi) because it is done with the underylying principals of SD primarily with some consideration given to the uniqueness of the particualr system. In my experience, SD students spend most of their time training short-form and all the forms we do display those principals.

It's my experience that forcing students to learn too many forms aside, SD is a practical art that teaches good fighting fundamentals. I've sparred with many different people of many different styles and I always felt that my skills were on par with the people I was sparring. My forms looked bad, but if we fought, they would know it and have respect for me and my training at the end of the match.

I take back part of this statement; to those that call what SD is as Kung Fu, then it is fair to criticize the forms, but I don't think SD's forms are supposed to look the same as CMA. The fundamentals are taught differently. You can either try to change your forms to look more like CMA, or do them they way they are taught (as was on display in the Indoneisan videos) which is similar movements with a different flavor. That's not bad as long as you are honest with what you are doing.

[kwaichang]

I agree , as stated all people do it different but to put a chinese flavor because the form is from china may not be the SD way due to the Indonesian influence. Or perhaps the Sin The influence as well with emphasis on other things and tech and strengths in the art. KC

[Iron Palm]

I agree , as stated all people do it different but to put a chinese flavor because the form is from china may not be the SD way due to the Indonesian influence. Or perhaps the Sin The influence as well with emphasis on other things and tech and strengths in the art. KC

Maybe your other MA experience has allowed you to intuit the correct principles, or maybe the east coast teachers are more thorough, but in my experience with SD, the reason students like Jake *******ize forms or try to "chinafy" them is because of a leadership void.

Every form was taught 100 different ways, and the more often it was taught, the more variations there were. (And for the Non-SD people, variations don't mean a 5-10 degree additional rotation of a foot in a stance, it means whole movements suddenly omitted/added) While training on my own at year 10, I would often think "I have no idea how much progress I've made with this one form because I still have no idea how it's actually performed."

I'm convinced that this was all intentional. As someone else on this board said, the Soard schools functioned as a personality cult, and I'm sure this system was designed to allow endless criticism by senior people, thereby ensuring reliance on them by the more junior.

If I had to guess (and really that's all I can do), I would agree with Judge Pen's assertion that the short forms make up the core or principle(s) of SD. But it always seemed so out of default: by being taught empty series of movements and being made to feel constantly wrong, students naturally resort to the short forms. Hence, with no other ideas of how to generate power, you start seeing short form #1 everywhere, and Hua Chuan, He Hu, Bai Hao, Xing Yi, and Zui Chuan all look the same.

I attended many of the "festival" seminars as well as regular classes, and outside of the basic shape of stances and direction of punches, no real direction was ever given. This was even despite the many opportunities to do so at the seminars themselves, the informal seminar review sessions sometimes held by local instructors/master, and at testing if/when the seminar material was required.

Actually, testing is probably the best example of the lack of direction in SD, or at least on the west side. I sat on many testing panels, and was personally told by instructors and masters only to score students between 70 and 75 (out of 100). No matter how well the student did, the maximum he could be awarded was a "C", and we were specifically prohibited from failing anyone ever. What determined how many of those precious 5 points we were permitted to allot? General considerations applied across every form: "low stances", "speed", "snap & power", "fluidity", and "spirit". Zero form/system specific direction was ever given, nor was it used to evaluate a student's progress in any specific areas.

Unsurprising, considering that a huge portion of the west coast curriculum is from books.

Again, my teachers were all west-side people, but whenever I attempted to inquire into the "how" of the forms/systems, I was usually met with ambiguity or pseudo-mystical nonsense meant to imply that I was too ignorant/too junior/too unskilled/too physically weak to comprehend. Actual examples:

General Question: What is the weighting in that stance? Is it an equally weighted horse stance, or is it more of a back-weighted reverse-bow? And how are the shoulders oriented relative to the waist and legs?
Master-level Answer: Yes. *Giggle/benign smile*
Follow Up: "Yes"? Your answer doesn't fit the format of the question and I don't understand.
Master-level Answer: Just don't worry about the specifics so much. Answers will come with time and training. *Benign smile*

Tai Chi Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You'll understand when you learn bagua. *Giggle/Benign smile*

Bagua Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You'll understand when you learn xing yi. *Giggle/Benign smile*

Xing Yi Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You're a 2nd degree black belt and you dont know this? You should come to the tai chi class more often. *Disappointed frown*

Application Question: How do you apply this?
Master-level Answer: Oh, it could be like a sweep, or maybe its like a punch, or maybe its like a block, you could use it a lot of different ways.

Application Question: The foot position of this posture seems really dangerous/counter-productive to actual fighting. Why do we stress this?
Master-level Answer: That's just the way it's done. It was good enough for the monks, it should be good enough for you too.

[Kymus]

Based on what I've heard, it sounds to me like the Soards were some serious money grubbers, had little in the way of morals, and ran a belt factory.

I get the impression that they built up a cult of personality around Sin The and maybe themselves as well. I've read how they loved telling all sorts of stories about Sin The. If they ran a kids class, I can only imagine that those kids must've thought that Sin The was Bruce Lee's teacher (assuming they believed all the crazy stories that get passed around about Sin The).

Iron Palm, the Q&A that you mention really says to me that for them it wasn't about the art (captain obvious, I know), but about $$$$. That's the only conclusion I can come to based on their circular logic. I don't think they were really that stupid.

Someone wanna fill me in on how they were running a separate SD branch but were still cool with Sin The? :confused: I never got that.

[Empty_Cup]

Maybe your other MA experience has allowed you to intuit the correct principles, or maybe the east coast teachers are more thorough, but in my experience with SD, the reason students like Jake *******ize forms or try to "chinafy" them is because of a leadership void.

Every form was taught 100 different ways, and the more often it was taught, the more variations there were. (And for the Non-SD people, variations don't mean a 5-10 degree additional rotation of a foot in a stance, it means whole movements suddenly omitted/added) While training on my own at year 10, I would often think "I have no idea how much progress I've made with this one form because I still have no idea how it's actually performed."

I'm convinced that this was all intentional. As someone else on this board said, the Soard schools functioned as a personality cult, and I'm sure this system was designed to allow endless criticism by senior people, thereby ensuring reliance on them by the more junior.

If I had to guess (and really that's all I can do), I would agree with Judge Pen's assertion that the short forms make up the core or principle(s) of SD. But it always seemed so out of default: by being taught empty series of movements and being made to feel constantly wrong, students naturally resort to the short forms. Hence, with no other ideas of how to generate power, you start seeing short form #1 everywhere, and Hua Chuan, He Hu, Bai Hao, Xing Yi, and Zui Chuan all look the same.

I attended many of the "festival" seminars as well as regular classes, and outside of the basic shape of stances and direction of punches, no real direction was ever given. This was even despite the many opportunities to do so at the seminars themselves, the informal seminar review sessions sometimes held by local instructors/master, and at testing if/when the seminar material was required.

Actually, testing is probably the best example of the lack of direction in SD, or at least on the west side. I sat on many testing panels, and was personally told by instructors and masters only to score students between 70 and 75 (out of 100). No matter how well the student did, the maximum he could be awarded was a "C", and we were specifically prohibited from failing anyone ever. What determined how many of those precious 5 points we were permitted to allot? General considerations applied across every form: "low stances", "speed", "snap & power", "fluidity", and "spirit". Zero form/system specific direction was ever given, nor was it used to evaluate a student's progress in any specific areas.

Unsurprising, considering that a huge portion of the west coast curriculum is from books.

Again, my teachers were all west-side people, but whenever I attempted to inquire into the "how" of the forms/systems, I was usually met with ambiguity or pseudo-mystical nonsense meant to imply that I was too ignorant/too junior/too unskilled/too physically weak to comprehend. Actual examples:

General Question: What is the weighting in that stance? Is it an equally weighted horse stance, or is it more of a back-weighted reverse-bow? And how are the shoulders oriented relative to the waist and legs?
Master-level Answer: Yes. *Giggle/benign smile*
Follow Up: "Yes"? Your answer doesn't fit the format of the question and I don't understand.
Master-level Answer: Just don't worry about the specifics so much. Answers will come with time and training. *Benign smile*

Tai Chi Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You'll understand when you learn bagua. *Giggle/Benign smile*

Bagua Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You'll understand when you learn xing yi. *Giggle/Benign smile*

Xing Yi Question: I don't understand how I "use my dan tien" in this posture. What does that mean?
Instructor-level Answer: You're a 2nd degree black belt and you dont know this? You should come to the tai chi class more often. *Disappointed frown*

Application Question: How do you apply this?
Master-level Answer: Oh, it could be like a sweep, or maybe its like a punch, or maybe its like a block, you could use it a lot of different ways.

Application Question: The foot position of this posture seems really dangerous/counter-productive to actual fighting. Why do we stress this?
Master-level Answer: That's just the way it's done. It was good enough for the monks, it should be good enough for you too.

This is really sad. NO student should be treated like that. If the Soards really ran things like that, they are pieces of ****. I can tell you that is NOT how classes are run in my area.

[hskwarrior]

Application Question: The foot position of this posture seems really dangerous/counter-productive to actual fighting. Why do we stress this?
Master-level Answer: That's just the way it's done. It was good enough for the monks, it should be good enough for you too.

thats Cult Leader mind control sh1t right there

[kwaichang]

Iron Palm I am sorry you got associated with those people out there. It is my understanding that they basically bought their way to where they are. Sad but True. I assure you there is some of that every where with SD to a degree but not that bad. I just ignored all that stuff, when I was teaching many students complained to the owner of the school that I was being too tough on them . I was using tried and tru progressions all they had to do was their homework but they wanted it spoon fed in a silver spoon too them. I didnt though. But that didnt stop the whining. HSK you are right I would have punched one if they acted so cursory toward me. I dont stand for that Shizen KC

[Orion Paximus]

I like reading this thread for the back an forth and like I've said before I have no dog in this fight, however in regard to learning a form different ways from different teachers; I was taught Xiaohongquan by three different teachers and they taught me 3 different forms. Not radically different in aesthetic but different enough that the applications of some of the movements radically change.

[Judge Pen]

thats Cult Leader mind control sh1t right there

I'm not arguing with you. Like I said, there a very big difference in my experience and many students that I've met that were taught by teachers under the Soards' system.

[bawang]

so when r u guys gonna learn the real shaolin?

[JSE]

When there is someone that is a "Real Shaolin" master in East TN. Not too many options around here. Although I am happy where I am, I would love to study a traditional style as well.

[Iron Palm]

I like reading this thread for the back an forth and like I've said before I have no dog in this fight, however in regard to learning a form different ways from different teachers; I was taught Xiaohongquan by three different teachers and they taught me 3 different forms. Not radically different in aesthetic but different enough that the applications of some of the movements radically change.

I understand what you're saying and of course it's to be expected that different people will have different interpretations of forms. However, what I was attempting to describe is different: at the Soard schools, you could learn the same form 3 different ways under the same instructor in the span of 3 months. The overnight changes usually occur after one of the periodic "instructor training" sessions the Soards require of those under them, where they supposedly use mind control tactics such as sleep deprivation.

For example, you could (and I have):

1) Spend a lot of one on one time with a very senior instructor (i.e. someone who should know brown/black material inside and out) preparing for a test, poring over various forms, asking for and receiving feedback, and being told in no uncertain terms to do, say, Movement X.

2) Travel to Denver (required location for most testing) for the test, perform Movement X and score very well (74-75).

3) Return to your school and continue training Movement X while your instructor stays behind at "instructor training"

4) Upon his return, find your instructor regarding you with confusion as he watches you perform the exact Movement X he demonstrated and approved merely 1 week prior, saying "no that's wrong"

5) Witness a bizarre cover-up wherein the next time that form is taught or reviewed during an actual class, the instructor implements the changes with phrases like "I'm seeing students doing X, but that's wrong and I don't know where they got the idea they should be doing X, instead you should be doing Y", and meeting objections with "nothing has changed, it's always been Y, this is the way the monks have always done it"

Every instructor I trained with did this, in the exact same way, as though they were being told how to do it, or at least having it done to them. Now consider that instructor training occurs 6-10 times per year, and maybe 3-4 different forms are "reviewed" each time.

There are variations. Sometimes Movement X is omitted entirely and/or new ones are added. But I lived through enough of it to see X become Y, Y become Z, Z be omitted, Y be re-added, and finally become X once again, in many different forms, all to the steady tempo of Soard instructor brainwashing.

[Kymus]

When there is someone that is a "Real Shaolin" master in East TN. Not too many options around here. Although I am happy where I am, I would love to study a traditional style as well.

Yeah, I think by and large all the old school masters live in coastal cities. Mostly NY an California.

[Judge Pen]

I understand what you're saying and of course it's to be expected that different people will have different interpretations of forms. However, what I was attempting to describe is different: at the Soard schools, you could learn the same form 3 different ways under the same instructor in the span of 3 months. The overnight changes usually occur after one of the periodic "instructor training" sessions the Soards require of those under them, where they supposedly use mind control tactics such as sleep deprivation.

For example, you could (and I have):

1) Spend a lot of one on one time with a very senior instructor (i.e. someone who should know brown/black material inside and out) preparing for a test, poring over various forms, asking for and receiving feedback, and being told in no uncertain terms to do, say, Movement X.

2) Travel to Denver (required location for most testing) for the test, perform Movement X and score very well (74-75).

3) Return to your school and continue training Movement X while your instructor stays behind at "instructor training"

4) Upon his return, find your instructor regarding you with confusion as he watches you perform the exact Movement X he demonstrated and approved merely 1 week prior, saying "no that's wrong"

5) Witness a bizarre cover-up wherein the next time that form is taught or reviewed during an actual class, the instructor implements the changes with phrases like "I'm seeing students doing X, but that's wrong and I don't know where they got the idea they should be doing X, instead you should be doing Y", and meeting objections with "nothing has changed, it's always been Y, this is the way the monks have always done it"

Every instructor I trained with did this, in the exact same way, as though they were being told how to do it, or at least having it done to them. Now consider that instructor training occurs 6-10 times per year, and maybe 3-4 different forms are "reviewed" each time.

There are variations. Sometimes Movement X is omitted entirely and/or new ones are added. But I lived through enough of it to see X become Y, Y become Z, Z be omitted, Y be re-added, and finally become X once again, in many different forms, all to the steady tempo of Soard instructor brainwashing.

That's bat**** crazy. I learned forms different ways from different instructors, but never like that from the same instructor. When I trained under Master Garry, he would have a mandatory meeting for black sashes where we would have to perform all of our standard materials and complete a rigorous conditioning class because, in his words, if you are going to claim the rank under him then you are going to have to meet his expected standards. He did everything with us--there was never a "do what I say not as I do" attitude. I remember him telling us, while we were holding a horse stance for an extended period of time, "if you stand up go ahead and walk out and leave your sash at the door." He wasn't mean, it was just matter-of-fact. He got tired of seeing so-called "black-belts" who were out of shape.

I compare that to a buddy of mine who moved from East Tennessee to NY. There he started training under a Soard student. The Soards came over for a seminar where they taught "Buddha Fist". In that form there is a single-leg squat and only a couple of people there could do it (my friend and his instructor). No only could the Soards not do the move, but they said they didn't want to try and fail because "it would disrespect Buddha." He called me right after the seminar because he couldn't believe what he saw.

[Kymus]

Not only could the Soards not do the move, but they said they didn't want to try and fail because "it would disrespect Buddha." He called me right after the seminar because he couldn't believe what he saw.

:eek::rolleyes::D

[Iron Palm]

No only could the Soards not do the move, but they said they didn't want to try and fail because "it would disrespect Buddha." He called me right after the seminar because he couldn't believe what he saw.

Years ago at an outdoor seminar, a student offered to let Sharon Soard wear her sunglasses. Her response: "No thank you, they distort the true nature of reality."

[bawang]

When there is someone that is a "Real Shaolin" master in East TN. Not too many options around here. Although I am happy where I am, I would love to study a traditional style as well.

in my humble opinion, if you just watch xiaohongquan on youtube and mimic it for 10 min, it would be 1000x better than what you learned for 10 years.

[Kymus]

Years ago at an outdoor seminar, a student offered to let Sharon Soard wear her sunglasses. Her response: "No thank you, they distort the true nature of reality."

I think we officially need a Sh!t The Soards Say thread.

[Judge Pen]

in my humble opinion, if you just watch xiaohongquan on youtube and mimic it for 10 min, it would be 1000x better than what you learned for 10 years.

Bull****. That would not teach me to fight. What I learned may be ugly and a poor example of CMA fluidity and mechanics, but I can use it to protect myself. I have the reports of respected forum members to back that up.

[bawang]

Bull****. That would not teach me to fight. What I learned may be ugly and a poor example of CMA fluidity and mechanics, but I can use it to protect myself. I have the reports of respected forum members to back that up.

its better to learn real shaolin and not know how to fight, than learning weird ass fake kung fu then doing some half ass kickboxing.

[bodhi warrior]

in my humble opinion, if you just watch xiaohongquan on youtube and mimic it for 10 min, it would be 1000x better than what you learned for 10 years.

That form is pretty. But I doubt it would make someone a better fighter. Better dancer maybe.

[Kellen Bassette]

That form is pretty. But I doubt it would make someone a better fighter. Better dancer maybe.

Xiao Hong Quan is a pretty form???

[bawang]

That form is pretty. But I doubt it would make someone a better fighter. Better dancer maybe.

then stop doing your sh1t forms and join MMA.

I got a brown belt in Shotokan, I know how u karate fgts train.

[bawang]

Xiao Hong Quan is a pretty form???

if someone is forced to eat feces, without choice, I can understand that. if someone is offered food, but continues to consume feces, then he bears the full responsibility of a sh1t eater.

[Empty_Cup]

if someone is forced to eat feces, without choice, I can understand that. if someone is offered food, but continues to consume feces, then he bears the full responsibility of a sh1t eater.

You are a joke.

[bawang]

You are a joke.

look in the mirror

[Leto]

I understand what you're saying and of course it's to be expected that different people will have different interpretations of forms. However, what I was attempting to describe is different: at the Soard schools, you could learn the same form 3 different ways under the same instructor in the span of 3 months. The overnight changes usually occur after one of the periodic "instructor training" sessions the Soards require of those under them, where they supposedly use mind control tactics such as sleep deprivation.

For example, you could (and I have):

1) Spend a lot of one on one time with a very senior instructor (i.e. someone who should know brown/black material inside and out) preparing for a test, poring over various forms, asking for and receiving feedback, and being told in no uncertain terms to do, say, Movement X.

2) Travel to Denver (required location for most testing) for the test, perform Movement X and score very well (74-75).

3) Return to your school and continue training Movement X while your instructor stays behind at "instructor training"

4) Upon his return, find your instructor regarding you with confusion as he watches you perform the exact Movement X he demonstrated and approved merely 1 week prior, saying "no that's wrong"

5) Witness a bizarre cover-up wherein the next time that form is taught or reviewed during an actual class, the instructor implements the changes with phrases like "I'm seeing students doing X, but that's wrong and I don't know where they got the idea they should be doing X, instead you should be doing Y", and meeting objections with "nothing has changed, it's always been Y, this is the way the monks have always done it"

Every instructor I trained with did this, in the exact same way, as though they were being told how to do it, or at least having it done to them. Now consider that instructor training occurs 6-10 times per year, and maybe 3-4 different forms are "reviewed" each time.

There are variations. Sometimes Movement X is omitted entirely and/or new ones are added. But I lived through enough of it to see X become Y, Y become Z, Z be omitted, Y be re-added, and finally become X once again, in many different forms, all to the steady tempo of Soard instructor brainwashing.

They don't have instructor training that often, do they? I seem to remember it once or twice a year, maybe three times. They did have them up for three days straight, with only a few hours of sleep a night. I haven't been there since '06, though. It's weird that your instructor actually acted like the new changes had always been there. My teacher would come back, we'd have a session with all the assistant instructors to go over the changes to our core material, and he'd point out what stuff was new, and just say that we needed to start teaching it this way. It was the worst for the lower belts who had just learned something the old way, confusing and hard to explain. I did think it was strange how the Soards would just change movements in the forms occasionally. At the time, I didn't suspect it was a method of control or brainwashing, but that it was a sign of their evolving interpretation of the material. I figured they were changing things based on finding a new application they wanted to include, or a movement which flowed better with the form. But the idea that it would change at all meant that it was definitely not some kind of ancient tradition from the temple, or that the "masters" had any kind of profound knowledge that no one else does. My teacher was never much of a cool-aid drinker, he didn't convert to veganism or anything. He just struggled to stay in business and keep the doors open, and accepted their business template to do that. I think he eventually left the system (don't know if he was made to leave, or the school wasn't making money, or if there were personal issues which led to him leaving town) so don't know what he's doing now.
To be fair, I have seen S.Soard do the one-legged squat from Fu chia chien and the five animal form, I learned both from her, and she was pretty hard on the students to work their stances and conditioning when I was there. There were certainly upper level students and teachers who couldn't do it, however. The attitude that came across to me was that we were expected to do the stances as much as we could, and with practice you'd eventually get there The whole operation there does look more and more like a big pyramid scheme, the more perspective one gets, and I don't disagree with the ridiculousness of the testing. I sat on lots of panels myself. A big problem is, most of the people judging aren't qualified to judge anyone, except on whether or not the order of movements was performed correctly. The tests are just money-making strategy anyway. That is why no one ever fails, it happens on a schedule, and the scores really mean nothing. The last year I was there I dodged actually sitting in on tests as often as I could, it was just pointless.

[Iron Palm]

They don't have instructor training that often, do they? I seem to remember it once or twice a year, maybe three times.

AFAIK Every Soard seminar included instructor training, so prior to the sexual assault that was: Portland, SF, LA, LV, Alb, Phx, CS, Boise, NY, and I'm probably forgetting a few.


It's weird that your instructor actually acted like the new changes had always been there.

It wasn't just one.


To be fair, I have seen S.Soard do the one-legged squat from Fu chia chien and the five animal form, I learned both from her, and she was pretty hard on the students to work their stances and conditioning when I was there.

I've seen both of them demo material adequately, but IMO never of the caliber expected of someone who is going to walk around calling themselves 7th degree senior master. I've met people who don't call themselves anything with vastly more skill, and who have too much pride in their art to ever demonstrate anything "halfway".


A big problem is, most of the people judging aren't qualified to judge anyone, except on whether or not the order of movements was performed correctly.

I couldn't agree more. If I squint really hard I can rationalize away having 1st degrees evaluate other first degrees as some kind of a stop gap since the "masters" can't be everywhere at once, but even the sacred yearly Denver pilgrimage resulted in no additional feedback and I was forced to conclude there simply isn't any to give.

[kungfujunky]

The Soards have recently lost more of their schools...I dont know the details but find it interesting...

I remember the changing moves BS and thought it was total horse crap and would not change usually unless the move made sense in the flow of the form.

[Leto]

I've seen both of them demo material adequately, but IMO never of the caliber expected of someone who is going to walk around calling themselves 7th degree senior master. I've met people who don't call themselves anything with vastly more skill, and who have too much pride in their art to ever demonstrate anything "halfway".


Oh, definitely. There certainly was no "mastery" there. That, I think, goes back to the root of the whole system. Most of the material was never mastered by anyone, including Sin The, I am sure. I know there was more than one instructor who thought they were holders of some ancient spiritual knowledge, and acted like the Soards were gurus of the highest order. I'm just saying mine wasn't like that, not that he necessarily knew better martial arts, he still taught their curriculum and didn't rock the boat. He didn't break away after the harassment scandal, but I wasn't there at the time so I have no idea what was going on with him during all that.
When I was there, there wasn't a Portland school to speak of. One of the black belts from my school went out there to start one, was running classes out of a health club, and ended up going incommunicado. Later someone else went out there with the support of the Soards and got a full program going. NY wasn't a school yet, either, he was still a student in Boulder. Salt Lake had just started up and was a small program that didn't warrant a visit yet. AFAIK, when there was a seminar, the Soards would meet with the instructor of that school the day or night before to go over what they were doing. Each year they would pick one of the seminar visits to host the instructor training that everyone was required to go to. It would change locations to be fair to all the teachers. One year it was Boise, next year Alb, then Phoenix, etc. That was when they did the three or four day marathon session, tell the instructors what new material they were going to introduce in the following year, and make adjustments to various forms. Aspiring instructors or people they were grooming to be instructors were also invited to these. They might have changed their format after my time, and decided they needed to do that at every seminar to keep tighter control. It was hard on my instructor, because he could barely afford to keep the doors open, never mind travel to far away places like LV or the Cali schools more than once a year. If they started requiring that, it might explain one reason why he finally left the program.
I once brought up, just to my own teacher and his wife, that I thought it might not be proper to have such lax standards (really no standards) for our testing. I was told that it was really all about people improving themselves, not holding them to an objective standard. If they could do something more than they could before, then they should pass and move on to new material. "Not everyone can be as hardcore as you", was the phrase that was used, and it was mentioned that I couldn't expect a 60 year old lady who was a student to perform the same as myself or anyone younger. I let it go after that, the system was a lost cause. I understood what they were saying about people with physical limitations not being held back when they are doing the best they can...but there has to be a limit. We were passing perfectly healthy young people who barely could remember the order of moves in the form, and couldn't keep their balance after throwing a kick. I was ashamed to see such people testing in front of a panel, I felt bad for them because I know they were usually pressured into doing it. The most influence I had on the issue was that I might be given a group of students and told to review with them to make sure they were ready for their test this week. Sometimes one or more of them hadn't even memorized one of their forms yet. I could tell him that they weren't really ready, but I knew that wasn't going to mean anything ultimately. If it wasn't this week, it would be put off until next week, or for one more class, and what they needed was a couple months at least. He simply couldn't afford not to have people pay for testing as often as possible. It was a sucky truth of the business, which is one reason why I have never started such a business myself. I realize he, and probably other instructors in many styles, try to rationalize such things in order not to feel like they are scamming people and cheapening their art. But the truth for most of them is all about keeping the lights on and food on the table. For those at the top of the pyramid, not struggling but maintaining this type of business practice anyway, it is just inexcusable.

[JSE]

in my humble opinion, if you just watch xiaohongquan on youtube and mimic it for 10 min, it would be 1000x better than what you learned for 10 years.

Dont get me wrong, I supplement as best I can with video's and books. But nothing beats having an instructor to make corrections when needed and motivate when laziness takes over.

My school was not a typical SD school. I do feel lucky that my instructor has always put the majority of the focus on conditioning and application from the forms. After the separation, it became part of the testing material. You have to perform the form, then demonstrate an application for each movement.

And he happens to be a hell of a fighter to boot. :D

Look, SD is what SD is. (still wondering if it is for real or not lol) Most of the people are aware and either dont care, or disassociate themselves and try to make the best of the training they had invested so much time and money in. My loyalty was never with SD or Sin The. My loyalty was to my instructor. When the "truth" came out, he was honest and transparent through the whole process with all of is students.

Given my current geographic location, I have 2 choices. I can continue my training and do the best that I can with it, try to supplement as much as I can, and enjoy it, given that I now know all of the shadiness of the lineage (which was ALWAYS suspect for me). Or I can ***** and moan, quit, and either do nothing or go to an MMA or TKD school. I have done both and would prefer not to go back to either of those. They just were not for me. Just my .02 Flame suit on. Proceed. :D

[CQCKenpo]

Okay, as they say -- I'm a long time reader and first time poster to this thread.

Background: I was born, raised, and they attempted to educate me in Lexington, Kentucky. In 1970, during my senior year at Lafayette High School, Hiang The (GM Sin The's brother) started a karate club at my school and after the first lesson I was hooked on the martial arts and I remain so to this day (I hold black belts in three different systems (none of them Shaolindo).

Although I stayed with Shaolindo for about 4 years (obtaining my first degree brown belt), by nature I am a researcher and I immediately started reading everything that I could find on the martial arts - especially Chinese martial arts. I soon started having doubts about what I was learning and the way it was being taught.

What attracted me to this thread was the discovery that so many people had the same issues with Shaolindo that I had 40 years ago, namely:
1) the use of white Japanese karate gis and karate style belts
2) the use of Japanese terminology (do, ippon kumite, katas)
3) the short katas (I could find no evidence of any Chinese system teaching "short katas")
4) the overall low standard applied to the teaching and the belt testing at the time.

For example, I can remember being at a class in September 1971 at the old ROTC building on the University of Kentucky campus (the other old timers will remember that building), watching a class of beginning students. These were generally college students who signed up for lessons in the "mystical" (at that time) art of karate. Sin The charged $10-$15 dollars a month for three lessons per week (so it was affordable).

What stands out in my mind about that one class was seeing approximately 150 brand-new students standing in four rows, in horse stance, throwing reverse punches with one (1) instructor up front for all 150 students. It was then that I started thinking, "can these people really be learning anything or is this all about the money?" Also, although I like to think I was a dedicated student who worked really hard to prepare for belt tests, I saw many people given belts who were totally unprepared. At one test I attended I watched Sin The begin filling out belt diplomas for everyone before the tests were even completed.

So why did I stay with Shaolindo for 4 years? First, at that time Shaolindo was "the only game in town." In 1970 the ONLY fighting arts available in Lexington was either Shaolindo or boxing at the downtown YMCA. Second, I found that the techniques worked! Third, it was enjoyable - I enjoyed learning the katas and being in class with the other students. I believe that many average people simply want to get some exercise and enjoy themselves. They do not really care if the katas are "authentic CMA" or "stolen" from other systems. They simply view Shaolindo as more fun than Pilates.

In all honesty, if I was to move back to Lexington when I retire I would probably go back and study for a while with Hiang The (who after all was my first instructor) -- again, simply because out of nostalgia and for fun.

[CQCKenpo]

Sorry, I got so busy with the history that I forgot about the 30 short katas. As have mentioned previously in this thread, TCMA do not have "short katas." So where did Sin The get the idea for them? After working with friends of mine who study the Indonesian system of pentjak silat I would like to suggest a idea.

Sin The grew up in Indonesia and may have been exposed to some of the pentjak silat teachings (even on a very periperal basis). One of the characteristics of the Indonesian systems are short sequences of attack/defense called "jurus". Although in no way identical, they are the closest training to Shaolindo's short katas that I have ever seen. I just wonder if Sin The copied the concept of jurus when he was creating the short katas...

Well, that is my thought. I would be interested in hearing what Judge Pen and others think of this idea. Please feel free to flame me if you think that I am totally full of Chi.

[Judge Pen]

(I hold black belts in three different systems (none of them Shaolindo).


So why did I stay with Shaolindo for 4 years? ...I found that the techniques worked!

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

[Judge Pen]

Sorry, I got so busy with the history that I forgot about the 30 short katas. As have mentioned previously in this thread, TCMA do not have "short katas." So where did Sin The get the idea for them? After working with friends of mine who study the Indonesian system of pentjak silat I would like to suggest a idea.

Sin The grew up in Indonesia and may have been exposed to some of the pentjak silat teachings (even on a very periperal basis). One of the characteristics of the Indonesian systems are short sequences of attack/defense called "jurus". Although in no way identical, they are the closest training to Shaolindo's short katas that I have ever seen. I just wonder if Sin The copied the concept of jurus when he was creating the short katas...

Well, that is my thought. I would be interested in hearing what Judge Pen and others think of this idea. Please feel free to flame me if you think that I am totally full of Chi.

Or if his teachers in Indonesia did? It's interesting; many people here try to relate short form to Tam Tui, but that's been debunked. In Sin The's deposition he testified under oath that he created the short kata, so your theory has traction. He said he based them on the idea of the 108 lohan forms, but that he didn't know the 108 and didn't know of anyone who did know them. I was always told that the 1-30 short form were a simplification of other material (later that material was identified as the 108). What I'm curious about is if the remaining vestiges of Ie Chang Ming's school teach "juras" or short form or whatever it's called. My teacher told me they did, but at the time I never followed up to see if that statement originated through what Sin The told him or from what he personally saw while in Indonesia in the early 90s.

Nice to meet you and thanks for the insight.

[bawang]

honest and transparent through the whole process with all of is students.

Given my current geographic location, I have 2 choices. I can continue my training and do the best that I can with it, try to supplement as much as I can, and enjoy it, given that I now know all of the shadiness of the lineage (which was ALWAYS suspect for me). Or I can ***** and moan, quit, and either do nothing or go to an MMA or TKD school. I have done both and would prefer not to go back to either of those. They just were not for me. Just my .02 Flame suit on. Proceed. :D


if you really are that scared of learning real kung fu fine. as long as you tell people you do karate, theres no problem.

I can totally understand your hillbilly town background. its been 40 years since the tv show, you just aren't motivated enough. and you feel disillusioned. you have invested so many years, and you cannot break out of it. I hope that in your next life you will find real kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

"real" kung fu?

lol, it's not an object Bawang. Kung fu is built in the individual. it doesn't come in a can and one man might have it but in no way can he fully impart it to another man, without the other man finding it in himself.


capice?

Honestly, I thought you knew this. :p

[bawang]

"real" kung fu?

lol, it's not an object Bawang. Kung fu is built in the individual. it doesn't come in a can and one man might have it but in no way can he fully impart it to another man, without the other man finding it in himself.


capice?

Honestly, I thought you knew this. :p

its like getting a nose job. some people care if its real, some don't.

I believe America is about truth and justice, in every aspect of your life, everything. even kung fu. shaolin do is against the basic fibre of American spirit.

if I went to jesus and jesus ask me if my kung fu is real, then I can tell him with pride, yes jesus, my kung fu is real. I don't know how a shaolin do guy can face jesus.

[David Jamieson]

its like getting a nose job. some people care if its real, some don't.

I believe America is about truth and justice, in every aspect of your life, everything. even kung fu. shaolin do is against the basic fibre of American spirit.

if I went to jesus and jesus ask me if my kung fu is real, then I can tell him with pride, yes jesus, my kung fu is real. I don't know how a shaolin do guy can face jesus.

Jesus?

Jesus...

lol

[bawang]

Jesus?

Jesus...

lol

I know if you showed jesus that video of you doing iron ring, jesus should shake his head and sigh.

[kwaichang]

Kung fu or do you mean wushu?
SD has the same ability of achieving "real" Kung fu as any art that time is spent with. So what is really real. Any one who learns "Real" Kung fu bu any one is going to get a diluted style just through the annals of time. Some more than others. Nothing is as it was. KC:)

[bawang]

Kung fu or do you mean wushu?
SD has the same ability of achieving "real" Kung fu as any art that time is spent with. So what is really real. Any one who learns "Real" Kung fu bu any one is going to get a diluted style just through the annals of time. Some more than others. Nothing is as it was. KC:)

change is natural. being a fake is different. a dog can never change into a lion. a man can never change into a woman. shaolin do cannot change into shaolin.

[kwaichang]

What about Chers Daughter is heshe a man or a woman? What about a hermaphrodite? Just curious. how U felt about this. KC:)

[kwaichang]

Can it be a real Kung Fu w/o being a real Shaolin? KC:)

[bawang]

Can it be a real Kung Fu w/o being a real Shaolin? KC:)

if you don't care about real kung fu that's fine with me. I doubt you even see colored people down south in those wheat fields, so shaolin doesn't really effect your conscience.

im Chinese, so I take it more seriously. shaolin temple is like NRA for Chinese people.

[kwaichang]

Theres Yellow , Pink Black , brown , Caucasian Albino , Red and Mixed. Which colored people do u speak of LOLOLOLOL KC:)
BTW I dont see color i see people. and not DEAD PEOPLE , well sometimes.

[bawang]

Theres Yellow , Pink Black , brown , Caucasian Albino , Red and Mixed. Which colored people do u speak of LOLOLOLOL KC:)
BTW I dont see color i see people. and not DEAD PEOPLE , well sometimes.

if you really understand colored people, you would know how important it is to have real shaolin, and not make a mockery out of it.

[bodhi warrior]

How do you define real shaolin?

[bawang]

How do you define real shaolin?

martial arts that come from shaolin temple

are you a crack baby or do you suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome as a child

[kwaichang]

In The history of things all MA Karate , Kung fu family styles and Kempo and Judo has a history and influence from Shaolin in some shape form or fashion. KC:eek:

[bawang]

In The history of things all MA Karate , Kung fu family styles and Kempo and Judo has a history and influence from Shaolin in some shape form or fashion. KC:eek:

all feces comes from food.

[David Jamieson]

I know if you showed jesus that video of you doing iron ring, jesus should shake his head and sigh.

They're Brass.

Please explain what you found wrong about it. :)

[bawang]

They're Brass.

Please explain what you found wrong about it. :)

u don't have muskles. u weak like womon

[bodhi warrior]

martial arts that come from shaolin temple

are you a crack baby or do you suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome as a child

Are you talking about the martial arts that came from shaolin before the temples destruction? Or the martial arts of the modern day temple taught by the Chinese government?

[Kymus]

all feces comes from food.

While Bawang's answer here isn't exactly diplomatic, it's true.

Shorinji comes from Shaolin, but it's not Kung Fu
Okinawan Karate comes from Kung Fu, but it's not Kung Fu

SD is SD. It's some sort of b@stard child from Kun Tao and Kung Fu. Even though it (possibly, maybe, but who knows) has roots in Kung Fu or Shaolin, it is not Kung Fu or Shaolin.

[OldandUsed]

@kymus.

I agree. Has anyone disagreed with you on that?

[Kymus]

@kymus.

I agree. Has anyone disagreed with you on that?

Not necessarily... but I think KC is saying that it comes from Shaolin or it comes from Kung Fu (however long ago) so it's not wrong to call it that.

[bawang]

Are you talking about the martial arts that came from shaolin before the temples destruction? Or the martial arts of the modern day temple taught by the Chinese government?

the modern day shaolin forms are traditional forms done in a flashy manner. its 1000 more legitimate than shaolin do.

[David Jamieson]

u don't have muskles. u weak like womon

lol.

I understand your fear now. My weakness and lousy 190-200 pound frame are just too small for you. You like the bigger boys. I get it.

Blessed be you.

[bawang]

lol.

I understand your fear now. My weakness and lousy 190-200 pound frame are just too small for you. You like the bigger boys. I get it.

Blessed be you.

I don't undersand.

[David Jamieson]

I don't undersand.

I agree. But that's not the point.

[OldandUsed]

Priceless!

[bawang]

I agree. But that's not the point.

if u train kung fu but don't have strong, what make u different from training shaolin do?


Priceless!

u know what is priceless? real shaolin.

[David Jamieson]

While Bawang's answer here isn't exactly diplomatic, it's true.

Shorinji comes from Shaolin, but it's not Kung Fu
Okinawan Karate comes from Kung Fu, but it's not Kung Fu

SD is SD. It's some sort of b@stard child from Kun Tao and Kung Fu. Even though it (possibly, maybe, but who knows) has roots in Kung Fu or Shaolin, it is not Kung Fu or Shaolin.

the isn't even a Kuntao guy, so I don't think so.
I think he and his brother learned some karate and sin decided he wanted to make some bank so he started his cult and started duping americans by the fistful with bogus chop sockey sauce.

I think i've said it before here, but there ain't no bitter like the bitter taste you get when you realize you have bought into a con and not only that, but you help sustain the con and have been caught in it for years, maybe even a decade.

It's a freaking disaster. I wasted time with a pretender once. I felt stupid at the end of it, cheated. I took the good out of it and moved on. I feel no worse for wear, but that first while was bitter, I felt stupid and betrayed at the same time.

anyway, martial arts isn't important in the grand scheme of things, so who cares who's a fake and who's real. right? It's about creating an activity that you can enjoy, find community in and so on.

real understanding of violence these days has nothing to do with how many forms someone knows, or even mma training for realz.

It's about awareness and superior ordinance. That's pretty much it.

So if you are a 200 lb dude with a solid punch who can take a hit, I wouldn't worry too much about master so and so or such and such, he's flesh and blood too. It's important to know at least that. All humans are fallible. All humans are inherently weak. Even the strongest of us is weak compared to lesser animals.

It's not rocket science to understand our meekness and our lack of power. The only way we get a fair fight at all is if we fight amongst ourselves. We are indeed pretty good at that with thousands of years of practice.

To that end, SD isn't Shaolin. Really, it's not even close. BUt it is what it is, and so, it's a real thing.

[David Jamieson]

if u train kung fu but don't have strong, what make u different from training shaolin do?


You have no idea bawang, you don't show up when invited, you don't respond to friendly cross hands and instead you sit here and troll about, reading old pages an making outrageous claims some of which are good and others which are op/ed crap.

bah, you collect bad karma. :p

typical disaffected chinese kid.

[bawang]

You have no idea bawang, you don't show up when invited

invite to wat



typical disaffected chinese kid.

im from village FOO

[Kymus]

the isn't even a Kuntao guy, so I don't think so.
I think he and his brother learned some karate and sin decided he wanted to make some bank so he started his cult and started duping americans by the fistful with bogus chop sockey sauce.

Mas Judt was the one that brought up the Kun Tao correlation years ago. JP probably remembers more of the conversation.

That, and, we know that there are guys in Indonesia that say they learned from the same teacher as ST and from what I recall, their forms had the standard SD flavor to them.

Given all the evidence that's been collected over the past decade, I think it's highly probable that they learned something in Indonesia that was at one point Kung Fu - however many generations - and that then got radically changed while in Indonesia.

That seems to be the most probable answer to what SD comes from. Of course, it's origins past ST's teacher is a complete mystery. I'm curious as to whether SD is the only game in Indonesia that has the SD flavor, and what art or arts it originally came from.

[Judge Pen]

While Bawang's answer here isn't exactly diplomatic, it's true.

Shorinji comes from Shaolin, but it's not Kung Fu
Okinawan Karate comes from Kung Fu, but it's not Kung Fu

SD is SD. It's some sort of b@stard child from Kun Tao and Kung Fu. Even though it (possibly, maybe, but who knows) has roots in Kung Fu or Shaolin, it is not Kung Fu or Shaolin.

That's a nice summation of this thread. Bawang just likes beating dead horse meat.

[David Jamieson]

Mas Judt was the one that brought up the Kun Tao correlation years ago. JP probably remembers more of the conversation.

That, and, we know that there are guys in Indonesia that say they learned from the same teacher as ST and from what I recall, their forms had the standard SD flavor to them.

Given all the evidence that's been collected over the past decade, I think it's highly probable that they learned something in Indonesia that was at one point Kung Fu - however many generations - and that then got radically changed while in Indonesia.

That seems to be the most probable answer to what SD comes from. Of course, it's origins past ST's teacher is a complete mystery. I'm curious as to whether SD is the only game in Indonesia that has the SD flavor, and what art or arts it originally came from.

I think it's important to understand the Indonesian and Malaysian cultural idioms as well. I personally don't think they learned Kuntao and don't see it in the SD material. it really looks like modified kempo karate at best.

[Kymus]

JP, remember you said that the wushu guy from Fight Science did a variation of one of your forms?

Was this one of the legit SD forms? Any idea where that form came from (as far as the Wushu guy is concerned)?


Bawang just likes beating dead horse meat.

Now I wouldn't say that.... Bawang is...... Shaolin-Man! He seeks truth, justice, and the Shaolin way!!

He whoops crackas with his mighty fists
He p!sses on phoneys with his wombat urine
and he is able to leap tall buildings in a single heliochopper!!!

:D:rolleyes:;):p

[Kymus]

Of course, he's still no match for me :cool:

[David Jamieson]

invite to wat to play



im from village FOO
yeah the village of mississauga, Ontario. lol :p

[Judge Pen]

If I hadn't seen the videos from the students of the remains of Sin The's school doing the same forms and compared that to some kung tao videos that Judt directed our way, I might be inclined to agree with David. I will agree that SD is not kung tao silat, but not all Indonesian arts are silat based. I think this is a *******aziation of CMA through Indonesia. In looking at this issue for the last 10 years, I'v seen many kung tao schools practice bare foot and wear gis, but not identify themselves as karate. I really think sin The was capitalizing on the familiarity of karate in the early days, and then on kung fu once it started to become popular. He wanted it both ways instead of just being honest and calling it kung tao from the begining.

[Judge Pen]

JP, remember you said that the wushu guy from Fight Science did a variation of one of your forms?

Was this one of the legit SD forms? Any idea where that form came from (as far as the Wushu guy is concerned)?



Now I wouldn't say that.... Bawang is...... Shaolin-Man! He seeks truth, justice, and the Shaolin way!!

He whoops crackas with his mighty fists
He p!sses on phoneys with his wombat urine
and he is able to leap tall buildings in a single heliochopper!!!

:D:rolleyes:;):p

Yeah it was Alex Huyn. He did a mix between Fei Fu (our yellow sash tiger form) and Lo Han Chien (a green sash form). I e-mailed him and asked him and he said that he was a student under one of John Winglock Ng's students and he learned those "traditional" forms from him.

[kwaichang]

http://www.cybergorillas.com/music/maffew-ragazino-bruce-leroy-glow/

[Kymus]

http://www.cybergorillas.com/music/maffew-ragazino-bruce-leroy-glow/

I think this is (http://www.troll.me/images/panic-face-king/american-chinese-food-disgrace-to-mother-hassah.jpg) him.

[Kymus]

Yeah it was Alex Huyn. He did a mix between Fei Fu (our yellow sash tiger form) and Lo Han Chien (a green sash form). I e-mailed him and asked him and he said that he was a student under one of John Winglock Ng's students and he learned those "traditional" forms from him.

Did he mention the names of the forms? What art are the from?

[bawang]

to play



yeah the village of mississauga, Ontario. lol :p

r u talking about that crazy fat guy, cuz u didn't go either

[Judge Pen]

Did he mention the names of the forms? What art are the from?

Fei Hu Ch’u Tong and Luo Han Chuan. He said his first teacher, part of Ng family system, taught it to him.

[Kymus]

Fei Hu Ch’u Tong and Luo Han Chuan. He said his first teacher, part of Ng family system, taught it to him.

What's the Ng family system?:confused: I've never heard of that

[Leto]

What's the Ng family system?:confused: I've never heard of that

It's a relatively small system which also started in Lexington, KY. My understanding is that they had a bit of a rivalry with Sin The and his students in the early days. Students went from one to the other, and some material may have crept between the two as well.

[Kymus]

It's a relatively small system which also started in Lexington, KY. My understanding is that they had a bit of a rivalry with Sin The and his students in the early days. Students went from one to the other, and some material may have crept between the two as well.

OIC, that school!

Now it all makes sense.

[Empty_Cup]

...
Given all the evidence that's been collected over the past decade, I think it's highly probable that they learned something in Indonesia that was at one point Kung Fu - however many generations - and that then got radically changed while in Indonesia.

....

I think that is most likely. At least, more likely than the idea that Japanese Karate got into the mix somehow.

[Kymus]

Jake Mace says he visits China every year to train.... I have yet to see anything that looks like actual Kung Fu. I think he's learning from this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZFSPGIE27Y&list=UUNEZbhMtJ0AN9bAw2cSaDow). :eek:

[GeneChing]

I think he's learning from this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZFSPGIE27Y&list=UUNEZbhMtJ0AN9bAw2cSaDow). Now that's racist. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Now that's racist. :rolleyes:

holy crap, no kidding.

Dude in the coolie hat needs to have a couple of his teeth knocked out of his stupid face if you ask me.

[Kymus]

Really? I dunno, I didn't find it disrespectful at all. I just saw it as a stupid parody.

[kwaichang]

A Change of subject!
Any one of you you have suffered an injury much like I have and felt that full recovery is somewhat hopeless. I have news for you. I have had pain in some shape form or fashion from my back injury. Lately I had someone do ASTYM / Gua Sha on different areas of my Body. I worked for 8-10 hours today with relatively 0/10 pain 98% of the day. This is awesome believe me injuries are like Locks and one searches for the Keys to fit those locks to be better. I have found such a KEY. KC:):):):):)

[hskwarrior]

Any one of you you have suffered an injury much like I have and felt that full recovery is somewhat hopeless.

after falling 50 feet, breaking my ankle and three parts of my spine and was never supposed to walk again i would say i know exactly what you're talking about.

[David Jamieson]

Really? I dunno, I didn't find it disrespectful at all. I just saw it as a stupid parody.

Probably because you aren't Asian?
But if all white people were depicted as Ozark Hillbillies, how would you feel about that? lol

[bawang]

Probably because you aren't Asian?
But if all white people were depicted as Ozark Hillbillies, how would you feel about that? lol

but you calling kung fu heroes from boxer rebellion a bunch of primitive savages and making fun of how they all got shot is perfectly ok.

[Empty_Cup]

Probably because you aren't Asian?
But if all white people were depicted as Ozark Hillbillies, how would you feel about that? lol

If comedy had to cut out all stereotypes and generalities there'd be quite a few comedians out of work...

[bawang]

If comedy had to cut out all stereotypes and generalities there'd be quite a few comedians out of work...

I think shaolin do is a very funny comedy.

[Kymus]

Probably because you aren't Asian?
But if all white people were depicted as Ozark Hillbillies, how would you feel about that? lol

I've seen what Japan thinks white people are like. I'm not offended in the least.

Big nose, blonde hair, everyone owns a gun...

That's just the general perception of what a Westerner is. This doesn't even get in to a parody.

[SoCo KungFu]

Now that's racist. :rolleyes:

Yeah, not only did they manage to pull the Chinese kung fu stereotype out, but they also managed to depict Mexicans as gun toting criminals. I wonder if these guys are from Texas (see what I did there)?

[SoCo KungFu]

I've seen what Japan thinks white people are like. I'm not offended in the least.

Big nose, blonde hair, everyone owns a gun...

That's just the general perception of what a Westerner is. This doesn't even get in to a parody.

Based on what? Because I lived in Japan and that was never an impression that I got. The blonde hair thing was a trait they thought was appealing, much like here we like dark skin and green eyes. But to say that's what they think Westerners are is something I never personally experienced.

Much like the cowboy thing. THEY like cowboys more than we do. But talk with my friends about the history of samurai and ninjas, and they start to yawn in about 3.2 seconds.

[Jimbo]

I've seen what Japan thinks white people are like. I'm not offended in the least.

Big nose, blonde hair, everyone owns a gun...

That's just the general perception of what a Westerner is. This doesn't even get in to a parody.

You've seen what 'Japan' thinks, or what a few people in Japan might think? I notice that some people speak of an entire country's population as if it's some monolithic entity.

[Kymus]

Based on what?

My experience with and study of Japanese culture and also the experiences and writings of gaijin living in Japan.

I'm pretty sure Peter Payne just recently wrote about the gun issue, but I can't seem to find the article. Interestingly, I found something that is on topic, regardless:


Often Japanese will not see the real America for all the preconceptions they have in their minds, which is why every woman in the U.S. is perceived as "blonde" and every man as "tall," even if they're not. Except for hunting in rural areas, there are no guns in Japan, and Japanese often obsess over them, asking people how many guns they keep in their house or visiting the many shooting ranges that cater to Japanese tourists. (link (http://www.peterpayne.net/2010/11/how-japanese-perceive-america.html))

There's also the issue of the recent Toshiba commercial for the スイパンダ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH5NYEkhQcA) (SuiPanDa) which is being called racist because of the big nose and the heavily gaijin-accented nihongo.

[Kymus]

You've seen what 'Japan' thinks, or what a few people in Japan might think? I notice that some people speak of an entire country's population as if it's some monolithic entity.

I'm not an expert on Japan, but, I've studied their language and culture for years. There are foreigners (gaijin) living in Japan that express the same thing.

There are certain things you can just expect in Japan. It doesn't help matters much that group-think is heavily encouraged and I'm sure that only adds to it.

[Jimbo]

I'm not an expert on Japan, but, I've studied their language and culture for years. There are foreigners (gaijin) living in Japan that express the same thing.

There are certain things you can just expect in Japan. It doesn't help matters much that group-think is heavily encouraged and I'm sure that only adds to it.

Yes, but all Japanese people are not the same. A lot of Westerners say that 'all Japanese (or all Asians) look/think alike.' And if you reversed it, there are places or areas in the West you can say the same thing about and be every bit as right.

I'm of Japanese descent (though not native Japanese; very different), yet I can't count the number of non-Asian people who have assumed I must think, know, or follow the same beliefs/thoughts/habits, etc., as some other Japanese/Asian person they know. That gets very old, very fast. So when I see moronic stereotypes as in the vid, I don't see the humor in it at all. Sometimes a stereotype can be funny, depending on the spirit in which it's done. That vid just appeared to be made out of stupidity.

[Kymus]

If I meet someone who has a clear Japanese accent, I'll assume certain things about them based on Japanese culture. If they walk and talk like any other westerner, then I think of them as a westerner.

People get this all the time, regardless of race. (For example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uk8pwEHMBE))

I think the people you are talking about just don't understand culture.

Every time I speak to a Japanese person in Japanese, they compliment me on my Japanese, whether it's horrible or actually decent. It's a cultural thing. Does that mean every Japanese person in the world will do that? No. But it's safe to bet on it.


That vid just appeared to be made out of stupidity.

Well, yea, that's the point of a parody. People say I don't see it as being racist because I'm not Asian. Ok, fair enough. But I don't feel like the aim is to be racist, just like the aim in the Japanese video I linked to isn't trying to be racist; it's blowing out a stereotype (blonde hair, big nose, heavily-accented Japanese-speaking gaijin with catch phrases that loves bread) to a specific audience (Japanese people).

[SoCo KungFu]

Yeah that blog by the Peter In Japan guy I have to disagree with. I lived there for 4 years and not once was I ever asked about guns or anything of the sort. The only guy that ever mentioned to me stereotypical western appearance to me was another American (expat) trying to get me to do a photo shoot for some clothing store I'm guessing was his.

I have been to Hawaii and I know the gun "clubs" that are being spoken of. I fail to see how that is them stereotyping westerners though. That's westerners realizing that they can rake in money providing tourists something they don't get to do at home. If anything it says more about what we think of them, than the other way around.

This is what I'll say about Japanese observations of foreigners, based on what I've gotten from them while I was there (warning: anecdotal). They think we work too hard and don't know how to relax. Which is funny because we say the same about them. They think we are too forward emotionally. Even if its just something small, they don't talk about it and trying to mediate a conflict, even between friends, can be a painful endeavor. Oh and Japanese have plenty of swear words. And once you're friends, they aren't afraid to teach them to you (so much for that overly polite Japanese modesty).

[Kymus]

Yeah that blog by the Peter In Japan guy I have to disagree with. I lived there for 4 years and not once was I ever asked about guns or anything of the sort.

Peter Payne's lived in Japan for something like over 20 years and his company, J-List is in Japan. He's married to a Japanese woman as well.

Maybe it depends on the region?

I've found the blonde hair stereotype to be common in Anime when there is a gaijin character. Although, this may also be because Japanese animators generally convey personalities through hair color (like the red head is usually the tsundere).

[Alex Córdoba]

Yes, but all Japanese people are not the same. A lot of Westerners say that 'all Japanese (or all Asians) look/think alike.' And if you reversed it, there are places or areas in the West you can say the same thing about and be every bit as right.

But we can agree that they are sexual pervs.

[Judge Pen]

My wife is of Japanese descent, but she was born in America. My in-laws were raised in Tokyo and Osaka but have been living in America since the 1960s. They both live with us now. It's easy to assume that my experiences transfer to a broader cultural experience, but I've never been to Japan myself and my understanding of the language is barely conversational. We laugh about many of the sterotypes within my own household and how many of them are based in truth and how many are exageratted.

To turn this back to the topic of the overall thread, my father-in-law holds a black belt in judo and a brown belt in shorin-ryu karate (his judo background translated into a wrestling scholorship to BYU which brought him to the US in the first place). We talk about our own martial arts background often and he does not see any Japanese flavor in SD (for whatever that is worth).

[kwaichang]

I have always said that. so I agree KC

[Kymus]

We talk about our own martial arts background often and he does not see any Japanese flavor in SD (for whatever that is worth).

I don't think it looks like Karate. I think it (well, the vast majority that is on YouTube) looks like a Karate guy trying to do a Kung Fu form. Or perhaps a kid watching a Kung Fu flick and then trying to do a form or something. Mostly, it's just people waving their arms around; no jing.

There are also movements that just don't make sense (like the odd tai chi form from the China video, and 2 of the fan forms I've seen). This isn't Karate (as in, real karate) but McDojo-style Karate.

Without knowing what it was, exactly, that Sin The made up, what was original, and what was gotten from books, I'd just shoot it out there that of the stuff I've seen on YouTube, there are movements that look like Kung Fu to me because they have a certain kind of flow, but again, it's the (sloppy) way the person moves.

[kwaichang]

GMThe taught this form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz1TZWT9IaU&feature=share&list=UUmR0ShS4iz7OW4XVdZr5abQ
anyone who took the form will you please C/C this with what you learned KC

[hskwarrior]

GMThe taught this form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz1TZ...z7OW4XVdZr5abQ
anyone who took the form will you please C/C this with what you learned KC

how could Sin The have taught this form when it says it was created by the guy in the video?
i've never met or experienced something so shameless as Sin The and the karate style known as Shaolin Do.

[Judge Pen]

how could Sin The have taught this form when it says it was created by the guy in the video?
i've never met or experienced something so shameless as Sin The and the karate style known as Shaolin Do.

It says that: "Shi De Yangs version." It does not say he created the form.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-rmPJ-V4o

This is very very close to the version I was taught. I'm curious to get the opinions of those on this example.

[kwaichang]

I reviewed my DVD of the Hua 2 man set and it is just about verbatim. very few differences. if any worth mentioning KC

[Judge Pen]

I reviewed my DVD of the Hua 2 man set and it is just about verbatim. very few differences. if any worth mentioning KC

Their drop kicks are different. We do more of a break-fall instead of turning the body and catching the body with the hands/wrists.

[kwaichang]

It again and the drop kicks as I was taught it are like flying side kicks but a drop to the mat during it. ???? we saying the same thing ??? KC

[kwaichang]

Hey guys I have 2 forms on a dvd and i need to down load them so I can put them on here any ideas? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Youtube... go with what works.

[Judge Pen]

It again and the drop kicks as I was taught it are like flying side kicks but a drop to the mat during it. ???? we saying the same thing ??? KC

We are. In that video, they are turning their body to a push-up position to cath themselves instead of droping onto the side.

[hskwarrior]

the fact that people are continuously discussing and reviewing material from DVD's is straight up disgusting.

[Empty_Cup]

the fact that people are continuously discussing and reviewing material from DVD's is straight up disgusting.

Would you prefer we rap and make youtube videos about them? :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

I have DVD's of all my forms so I can reference them as needed. If I am going to C/C I like to reference a Vid of the form so I dont make errors in my ststements. I have usually practiced my forms I have on DVD either hundreds or perhaps a Thousand times. KC:)

[hskwarrior]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDC_pDYmnPv5jD-Hpk349WxrWvftK_H2vG1rkKx08VmaWlbYG6ng

[kungfujunky]

HSK again adds so much value to the discussion.

[Judge Pen]

This presents an interesting discussion. How does one keep notes on forms? Traditionally it was expressed in lyrics where you are supposed to know the technique of each expression. More detailed notes were kept by a student to help them remember the flow and technique of a form. Now that technology allows us to record information freely, doesn't it stand to reason that people will have their material recorded to help them put some of the pieces together? Or is that somehow an affront to traditional methods?

If a purest thinks that recording and review of your material on video is not favorable, then how do they recall material that they need to brush up on? Are notes ok? Diagrams? Lyrics?

I also find it interesting that the objector to that idea probably has more youtube videos posted than anyone else that posts on this forum. Granted it is not complete forms, but I wonder what the intent of those videos are if not to help his students remeber proper flow, application and technique.

[kwaichang]

Some teachers say Ie Liu Hua Chien , Ar Liu Hua Chien, and some say 1st Bookof Hua or 2nd Book of Hua. Is that because it was passed on as a Book to students? Learn to practice and practice to learn. KC

[hskwarrior]

HSK again adds so much value to the discussion.

i don't add much to this thread because i am not skilled in book fu nor video fu. I am the unfortunate todai who got suckered into learning from some guy in a garage whose lineage begin in some southern city of china. i'm not worthy in the presence of the book fu and vid fu clans of shaolin gung fu.

[bodhi warrior]

Some teachers say Ie Liu Hua Chien , Ar Liu Hua Chien, and some say 1st Bookof Hua or 2nd Book of Hua. Is that because it was passed on as a Book to students? Learn to practice and practice to learn. KC

Probably because that's how Cai Longyun presented them. He wrote the book on the 4 roads of hua and 2 two man sets. There are 13 sets in hua quan if I'm not mistaken. We know 6. The exact six published by Cai longyun.

[kwaichang]

Have you seen the Hua forms you speak of? Curious as to the similarities and when the books were issued etc. How does that correlate to the teaching of the Hua's in SD? :)KC:)

[sean_stonehart]

Have you seen the Hua forms you speak of? Curious as to the similarities and when the books were issued etc. How does that correlate to the teaching of the Hua's in SD? :)KC:)

They're all on Youtube. Look up AirforceAllie or Marilyn Cooper's channel. Cooper was a student of Peter Kwok & Allie is a grandstudent of Kwok. As I understand it, Kwok learned Hua Quan from the Cai Longyan lineage in China & taught it here in the NJ area.

[Judge Pen]

Probably because that's how Cai Longyun presented them. He wrote the book on the 4 roads of hua and 2 two man sets. There are 13 sets in hua quan if I'm not mistaken. We know 6. The exact six published by Cai longyun.

That's pretty ****ing evidence IMO.

[kwaichang]

Yep that is why I wanted to know the dates of release . It may just be a coincidence that the #'s of forms etc are the same. I would have to see one to know could some one post one here? Not enough to convict ? LOL If the Glove dont fit U must aquit. KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/PjmFosOfZx0
Almost Verbatim So atleast the Huas in SD are real CMA, The question is how were they learned? and When KC

[kwaichang]

http://youtu.be/Ncc1okh4qeQ
No comment on skill level just sequence. 2nd road/book
http://youtu.be/U1E2UYLTGGw Other 2nd Rd .
http://youtu.be/avn8dVzZ_b8 Hua 3.
http://youtu.be/P01hLf8SBS8 HUa 4 KC

[MasterKiller]

Yep that is why I wanted to know the dates of release . It may just be a coincidence that the #'s of forms etc are the same. I would have to see one to know could some one post one here? Not enough to convict ? LOL If the Glove dont fit U must aquit. KC

http://i.qkme.me/3othw5.jpg

[kwaichang]

Twin Tiger Sword. http://youtu.be/MsXaakFRTLY










http://youtu.be/BD0Nd5WAejc Spear
I think we found the Origin of the Huas ???? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Yep that is why I wanted to know the dates of release . It may just be a coincidence that the #'s of forms etc are the same. I would have to see one to know could some one post one here? Not enough to convict ? LOL If the Glove dont fit U must aquit. KC

IIRC CYL's book was published in China in the 50's or 60's. Hua Quan is his family's style among with the others he learned separately.

[Iron Palm]

Yep that is why I wanted to know the dates of release . It may just be a coincidence that the #'s of forms etc are the same. I would have to see one to know could some one post one here? Not enough to convict ? LOL If the Glove dont fit U must aquit. KC

You can find pdf's of the books online and compare for yourself. Can't speak for whatever you might have learned, but I can say they are move for move identical to what the soards taught (or at least "roads" 1-4 are, as for some reason the 2 man set and the "modern" form were forbidden in the west).


I saw the double straight sword form you posted taught by Sharon Soard, and the spear form looks like it was broken into several forms and taught that way.

The party line in the Soard schools is that SD material is so original and so authentic that as soon as they teach it people videotape them with hidden cameras and immediately try to claim it as their own. I'm not exaggerating when I say they've accused everyone from Kung Fu the tv series to Mas Oyama of stealing their stuff. Of course now it's obvious that it's all preemptive propaganda for the inevitable clash they know will come between themselves and the actual progenitors of what they teach.

[kwaichang]

Hey no Problem , The Huas are real CMA as well as Twin Tigers etc. Whether it was learned from a book and taught or a vid and was taught, I feel certain my forms of the HUas "prior to Injury" are as good or better than most. Its real CMA and does have a lineage while not necessarily Shaolin. I still like them KC

[Empty_Cup]

Hey no Problem , The Huas are real CMA as well as Twin Tigers etc. Whether it was learned from a book and taught or a vid and was taught, I feel certain my forms of the HUas "prior to Injury" are as good or better than most. Its real CMA and does have a lineage while not necessarily Shaolin. I still like them KC

That's not much of a defense for this material in particular. It might feel good to call it "real CMA" but if it is only that way because it was copied from somebody else that's not very good. There's always the point that if it was taken from a book then how much was lost during transmission? Even if the movements are exact, is there something else missing?

[kwaichang]

Not defending but they are CMA and that was a main argument here. also if you learn from a teacher and they dont reveal all the "secrets" to the forms then what is the differense. Its just s easy to copy a vid as well as a real person , except the vid doesnt get mad and kick you out. KC still good stuff. Secrets usually come from Hard work anyway.

[Judge Pen]

I understand both sides of this issue. I loved the Hua material when I learned it, and my teacher really went into a lot of detail on the instruction and application. Essentially, I focused on the 4 roads of hua, almost exclusively, for over 4 years. So I feel better about applying this material than I do some other stuff that was taught but not in a great deal of detail. Having said that, you can't ignore the "lost in translation" argument if that material was pilfered and taught from a book. Even if a thoughtful and talented instructor is able to fill in the blanks based upon his own independent research and training to make this material very relevant and applicable (which is how I felt about my instruction) then the material is now different than traditional hua. Even if it has substantially the same form and flavor, it is now unique. Not bad, but different.

[kungfujunky]

You can find pdf's of the books online and compare for yourself. Can't speak for whatever you might have learned, but I can say they are move for move identical to what the soards taught (or at least "roads" 1-4 are, as for some reason the 2 man set and the "modern" form were forbidden in the west).


I saw the double straight sword form you posted taught by Sharon Soard, and the spear form looks like it was broken into several forms and taught that way.

The party line in the Soard schools is that SD material is so original and so authentic that as soon as they teach it people videotape them with hidden cameras and immediately try to claim it as their own. I'm not exaggerating when I say they've accused everyone from Kung Fu the tv series to Mas Oyama of stealing their stuff. Of course now it's obvious that it's all preemptive propaganda for the inevitable clash they know will come between themselves and the actual progenitors of what they teach.

Thats because the Soards did not know them. I have email evidence that they learned the 2 person sets from youtube videos. Whatever the Soards choose to not teach is done so because they do not know the material. period. Any material they learn they also like to attach some fabricated chinese legend or origin story so they can tell it when teaching it.

[Iron Palm]

I understand both sides of this issue. I loved the Hua material when I learned it, and my teacher really went into a lot of detail on the instruction and application. Essentially, I focused on the 4 roads of hua, almost exclusively, for over 4 years. So I feel better about applying this material than I do some other stuff that was taught but not in a great deal of detail. Having said that, you can't ignore the "lost in translation" argument if that material was pilfered and taught from a book. Even if a thoughtful and talented instructor is able to fill in the blanks based upon his own independent research and training to make this material very relevant and applicable (which is how I felt about my instruction) then the material is now different than traditional hua. Even if it has substantially the same form and flavor, it is now unique. Not bad, but different.

I read an interesting Bagua article a while ago; it's main takeaway was that if a system doesn't have a concise series of steps which build on each other to create a very specific skill set, then it is an incomplete system.

Having trained in a different style for a while now, which feels to me to be complete, or at least vastly more complete than SD, I liken the whole notion to capital theory.

If you imagine whatever art you're trying to learn is it's own economy, then the exercises, drills, training sequences, forms, etc. form a kind of knowledge capital stock that has accumulated over time. What you're attempting to build is the iphone of martial arts: a high technology version of the system (you) which takes advantage of, and would not be possible without, all the earlier inputs.

A salient example would be the notion of a technique having been "fight-tested". Rather than sit in your basement trying to imagine all the different attacks someone might use on you, hypothesizing good responses, and then going out and testing each one, that time can instead be spent training movements which have already had at least some useless aspects weeded out.

Pieces of SD may in fact be "real CMA", but in my opinion just grabbing a handful of forms here and there is like trying to build an iphone by grabbing a handful of materials and tools, and heading to a desert island in hopes that the thing will assemble itself if you just stare hard enough at it. If the rest of the infrastructure isn't there, it's extremely unlikely to happen. You might get something, but it probably won't be a very refined product since you didn't have decades of combined wisdom capital telling you what to avoid and what to emphasize from the start.

[Iron Palm]

Thats because the Soards did not know them. I have email evidence that they learned the 2 person sets from youtube videos. Whatever the Soards choose to not teach is done so because they do not know the material. period. Any material they learn they also like to attach some fabricated chinese legend or origin story so they can tell it when teaching it.

That sheds some light on why they kicked people out of their system for going east and learning those forms. It wouldn't be fitting for the peons to surpass the god-monks, would it?

[Alex Córdoba]

That's not much of a defense for this material in particular. It might feel good to call it "real CMA" but if it is only that way because it was copied from somebody else that's not very good. There's always the point that if it was taken from a book then how much was lost during transmission? Even if the movements are exact, is there something else missing?

I learned maths from a book, and my teachers as well... Are you saying my linage doesn't go back to Pitagoras?

[Judge Pen]

I read an interesting Bagua article a while ago; it's main takeaway was that if a system doesn't have a concise series of steps which build on each other to create a very specific skill set, then it is an incomplete system.

Having trained in a different style for a while now, which feels to me to be complete, or at least vastly more complete than SD, I liken the whole notion to capital theory.

If you imagine whatever art you're trying to learn is it's own economy, then the exercises, drills, training sequences, forms, etc. form a kind of knowledge capital stock that has accumulated over time. What you're attempting to build is the iphone of martial arts: a high technology version of the system (you) which takes advantage of, and would not be possible without, all the earlier inputs.

A salient example would be the notion of a technique having been "fight-tested". Rather than sit in your basement trying to imagine all the different attacks someone might use on you, hypothesizing good responses, and then going out and testing each one, that time can instead be spent training movements which have already had at least some useless aspects weeded out.

Pieces of SD may in fact be "real CMA", but in my opinion just grabbing a handful of forms here and there is like trying to build an iphone by grabbing a handful of materials and tools, and heading to a desert island in hopes that the thing will assemble itself if you just stare hard enough at it. If the rest of the infrastructure isn't there, it's extremely unlikely to happen. You might get something, but it probably won't be a very refined product since you didn't have decades of combined wisdom capital telling you what to avoid and what to emphasize from the start.

Which brings us back to the core material of SD and the question as to what material was taught as part of a comprehensive system in Indonesia (if anything).

[kwaichang]

If one learned the Hua's from a book and others from a Vid , and others from a Teacher well trained in them , and the best student of each method fought who would win. Answer: the one who trained the hardest therefore truth comes from training as well as application and strength. So I still maintain that it is wrong to steal a form but if the form is in the ether world then take it and learn. Dont claim it is something it isnt but dont be Pompous just because you have a "live" teacher. KC

[Empty_Cup]

I read an interesting Bagua article a while ago; it's main takeaway was that if a system doesn't have a concise series of steps which build on each other to create a very specific skill set, then it is an incomplete system.

Having trained in a different style for a while now, which feels to me to be complete, or at least vastly more complete than SD, I liken the whole notion to capital theory.

If you imagine whatever art you're trying to learn is it's own economy, then the exercises, drills, training sequences, forms, etc. form a kind of knowledge capital stock that has accumulated over time. What you're attempting to build is the iphone of martial arts: a high technology version of the system (you) which takes advantage of, and would not be possible without, all the earlier inputs.

A salient example would be the notion of a technique having been "fight-tested". Rather than sit in your basement trying to imagine all the different attacks someone might use on you, hypothesizing good responses, and then going out and testing each one, that time can instead be spent training movements which have already had at least some useless aspects weeded out.

Pieces of SD may in fact be "real CMA", but in my opinion just grabbing a handful of forms here and there is like trying to build an iphone by grabbing a handful of materials and tools, and heading to a desert island in hopes that the thing will assemble itself if you just stare hard enough at it. If the rest of the infrastructure isn't there, it's extremely unlikely to happen. You might get something, but it probably won't be a very refined product since you didn't have decades of combined wisdom capital telling you what to avoid and what to emphasize from the start.

SD is one extreme end of the spectrum...for better or worse. With so much material, it is very difficult to develop mastery in any particular thing. On the other end of the spectrum is the old adage "train one punch 10,000 times..." which comes with it's own pitfalls.

The real question a student needs to ask is, "where in the spectrum do I want to be?"

[kwaichang]

So i have trained many years, If I throw a Japanese Reverse Punch ie: Gyaku Tsuki 10000 times, will I be a better fighter than a person who does 50 forms that has an average of 50 punches/ strikes in them 4 times each week which would be 10000 punches total that week ? That is how I see the SD concept of so many forms etc. It works better I believe than just punching a board or doing 5 Heian forms forever. KC

[Snipsky]

The party line in the Soard schools is that SD material is so original and so authentic that as soon as they teach it people videotape them with hidden cameras and immediately try to claim it as their own. I'm not exaggerating when I say they've accused everyone from Kung Fu the tv series to Mas Oyama of stealing their stuff.

jajajajaja there is no honor amongst thieves.


If one learned the Hua's from a book and others from a Vid , and others from a Teacher well trained in them ,

shaolin do is really shaolin bunk. there is no shame in this group after knowing you learn kung fu from a teacher who buys books and videos from other styles then teaches you. shady.

[Snipsky]

Not defending but they are CMA and that was a main argument here. also if you learn from a teacher and they dont reveal all the "secrets" to the forms then what is the differense. Its just s easy to copy a vid as well as a real person , except the vid doesnt get mad and kick you out. KC still good stuff. Secrets usually come from Hard work anyway.

this is very strange comments. if i'm not wrong, this guy is saying "SO WHAT? I LEARNED IT FROM THE BOOK" so you must think you are THAT good to be able to extract something you never learned from a book. you don't even know what you'e looking at so how does that work out? it all looks exactly like SHAOLIN DO. very sad situation.

[Snipsky]

Thats because the Soards did not know them. I have email evidence that they learned the 2 person sets from youtube videos.

purely disgusting actions from alleged martial artists. **** cult leaders

[Snipsky]

Any material they learn they also like to attach some fabricated chinese legend or origin story so they can tell it when teaching it.

extremely shameless cult leaders. its funny to see the soards discuss things as if their experts. shameless

[Snipsky]

I learned maths from a book, and my teachers as well... Are you saying my linage doesn't go back to Pitagoras?

do math books purposely leave out extremely important pieces of information like they do in martial arts books?

[Snipsky]

If one learned the Hua's from a book and others from a Vid , and others from a Teacher well trained in them , and the best student of each method fought who would win. Answer: the one who trained the hardest therefore truth comes from training as well as application and strength. So I still maintain that it is wrong to steal a form but if the form is in the ether world then take it and learn. Dont claim it is something it isnt but dont be Pompous just because you have a "live" teacher. KC
___________

HSK is right, you do sound like jake mace.

[Snipsky]

So i have trained many years, If I throw a Japanese Reverse Punch ie: Gyaku Tsuki 10000 times, will I be a better fighter than a person who does 50 forms that has an average of 50 punches/ strikes in them 4 times each week which would be 10000 punches total that week ? That is how I see the SD concept of so many forms etc. It works better I believe than just punching a board or doing 5 Heian forms forever. KC

teacher of many, master of none. zero. zippo. nadda.

[Alex Córdoba]

do math books purposely leave out extremely important pieces of information like they do in martial arts books?

Math books I hope not, martial arts books I don't know, do they? What for?

[Alex Córdoba]

Who in the name of the old and new gods has tagged this thread as 'wookie sexual dynamo'.

[kwaichang]

You are just a Troll. Is your name based on the idea that you give oral Circumcisions. I am sure you are truly a master of that. KC:eek:

[hskwarrior]

Math books I hope not, martial arts books I don't know, do they? What for?

why would one write a book and just GIVE away something they worked so hard on themselves? i would hope EVERYONE who writes a book or makes a public video "modifies" it in case someone wanted to go around teaching that form without learning it from the source. look at what shaolin do did to my lineages 5 animal form. a shameless rape of something so treasured within my system.

choy lee fut never gives its traditional stuff away on film. you get the modified version intended to attract you to our schools and system.

[kwaichang]

this is very strange comments. if i'm not wrong, this guy is saying "SO WHAT? I LEARNED IT FROM THE BOOK" so you must think you are THAT good to be able to extract something you never learned from a book. you don't even know what you'e looking at so how does that work out? it all looks exactly like SHAOLIN DO. very sad situation.
Where are books mentioned in this Post ??? Except where you put it in there and yes i am that GOOD. KC:p

[hskwarrior]

Where are books mentioned in this Post ??? Except where you put it in there and yes i am that GOOD. KC

LMAO. Stop all that lyin'.

[Alex Córdoba]

why would one write a book and just GIVE away something they worked so hard on themselves? i would hope EVERYONE who writes a book or makes a public video "modifies" it in case someone wanted to go around teaching that form without learning it from the source. look at what shaolin do did to my lineages 5 animal form. a shameless rape of something so treasured within my system.

choy lee fut never gives its traditional stuff away on film. you get the modified version intended to attract you to our schools and system.

As Shi Yong Liao said: A good teacher never asks money for his knowledge.

I agree with him, but it's not how the world rules so it's up to one individual to decide this.

[kungfujunky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8ZC-rbR3E

what do you think?

[RJ797]

He does not move very well. Stiff and awkward.

[sean_stonehart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8ZC-rbR3E

what do you think?

*smh* :confused:

[OldandUsed]

Okay, guys, it does not matter what the content is, but the manner of execution. So what if it is a borrowed form from a video or a book? If the person performing it cannot move correctly, it is still junk. And using David Soard as an example? Really?

[sean_stonehart]

Okay, guys, it does not matter what the content is, but the manner of execution. So what if it is a borrowed form from a video or a book? If the person performing it cannot move correctly, it is still junk. And using David Soard as an example? Really?

Well actually it does matter & there have been examples already given of missed or flat out wrong transitions from technique to technique. This goes along with misinterpretation of the techniques intent & direction.

[OldandUsed]

Well, that ties in to what I am saying. If the execution is wrong, regardless of source, it is junk. I 100% agree that the transitions are lost when you attempt to pick up a form from video/book/notes without having an instructor refine your technique and provide insight into the form.

[rett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8ZC-rbR3E

what do you think?

1:50

"Now you figure if there's three or four, or eight, ten, twenty opponents – the first one punches... snap! snap! snap! You go.. next?"

*students chuckle*

"I don't think any more will want to throw a punch."

*students laugh appreciatively*

[sean_stonehart]

Well, that ties in to what I am saying. If the execution is wrong, regardless of source, it is junk. I 100% agree that the transitions are lost when you attempt to pick up a form from video/book/notes without having an instructor refine your technique and provide insight into the form.

No argument there about wrong is wrong.

However you're less likely to get it wrong with a teacher & all the things related to having a teacher in front of you. Now if the teacher got it wrong... that's whole other dynamic.

Otherwise, we could all go to the library, read a book on "X" & then proclaim ourselves whatever title is applicable, just from that. The then real professionals that took time & spent the energy to become whatever the title truly is would be up in arms. That... has legal repercussions. This doesn't & is "basically" a victimless crime & prime example of caveat emptor.

[hskwarrior]

Okay, guys, it does not matter what the content is, but the manner of execution. So what if it is a borrowed form from a video or a book?

THAT!!!!!! right there is EVERYTHING wrong with shaolin Feaux. so what its borrowed from a video or a book? no one see's anything wrong with that? you should advertise that the material learned is taken from a book and see if people will stay to learn something YOU nor anyone in your lineage authentically learned from a real teacher. that is why these white karate guys are wearing japanese uniforms while pretending to be chinese kung fu

[OldandUsed]

I am afraid you guys have missed the point I was making and are hanging up on a few semantics.

Let me try again. It does not matter what the source of the form is (book, video, live instructor) if you do not perform the technique correctly. Improper form is junk, regardless of where you got it. If you were taught correctly, but you lack the discipline or skill to execute the technique, then you are wrong.

[shen ku]

First thing, Sean you don't know what you are talking about, but do you have any peanut butter?? Lol

Second thing, does anyone on here work?? This thing blows up during the week when most people should be working????

[sean_stonehart]

I am afraid you guys have missed the point I was making and are hanging up on a few semantics.

Let me try again. It does not matter what the source of the form is (book, video, live instructor) if you do not perform the technique correctly. Improper form is junk, regardless of where you got it. If you were taught correctly, but you lack the discipline or skill to execute the technique, then you are wrong.

No I agree with you on that. Maybe the rest is semantics because I do not believe you can adequately (never mind properly) learn from a media source. You need instruction by someone who was also instructed in that manner on that topic.

[Empty_Cup]

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is not only 1 path to full understanding. If all somebody did is hear about an armbar/trap/break (let alone see a video/book/etc.) and did the biomechanical research, practice,and application then what would stop them from finding good technique? Just because they didn't learn the technique from some guy named Master Wang that means it's crap?

[Alex Córdoba]

because I do not believe you can adequately (never mind properly) learn from a media source. You need instruction by someone who was also instructed in that manner on that topic.

It depends on the media.

take this book for example http://www.amazon.es/The-Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/0195093364

It has a whole commentary of each chapter and the author is well versed in the matter, which I do appreciate.

[Kymus]

I am afraid you guys have missed the point I was making and are hanging up on a few semantics.

Let me try again. It does not matter what the source of the form is (book, video, live instructor) if you do not perform the technique correctly. Improper form is junk, regardless of where you got it. If you were taught correctly, but you lack the discipline or skill to execute the technique, then you are wrong.

The point everyone is making is that 99.99999999999999% of the time, learning from a book will = improper learning. So if someone learned something from a book, it's safe to assume that it's faulty; much more than a video (which also has flaws).

[Kymus]

First thing, Sean you don't know what you are talking about, but do you have any peanut butter?? Lol

Second thing, does anyone on here work?? This thing blows up during the week when most people should be working????

When should most people be working? Not every works 9am - 5pm, Mon - Fri. Some people work evenings, and some others access the forum from work or even on their phones.

[sean_stonehart]

First thing, Sean you don't know what you are talking about, but do you have any peanut butter?? Lol

Promise man... I got the clue on what I'm yammering off about. I try to not if I don't. And I got the PB!!!! I've got crunchy, smooth & Reese's!!



Second thing, does anyone on here work?? This thing blows up during the week when most people should be working????

Work?? Sometimes... it's a daily thing that takes way more than 8 hours & is rarely contiguous in occurrence.

[kwaichang]

Some seem to assume that a teacher is perfect and does not make mistakes. So lets say teacher A is Perfect and teaches B then B to C etc. Is the reproduction of the Material going to be the same ?
I say NO.
So what many have learned from Human teachers is already Flawed somewhat. Like wise if I have a DVD to refer to then that does not change. That is why in my opinion many forms while still taught by humans are going to change. Many also seem to think the next generation of student doesnt put their own twist on things so this intimate Knowledge is never the same for one as it is for another, even from the same teacher if any time has passed since the 1st teaching of it. KC

[shen ku]

Sean I have no doubt that you know what you talk abot, I was just having fun

[RJ797]

Here is a simple way of looking at it. If Person A learned Form X from a solid teacher, and Person B learned Form X from a book that exactly matches what the teacher does and Person C learns Form X from a DVD and they all practice it who has the best chance of doing right?

Person B reading from the book has the least chance of properly reproducing it because he is looking at static images and reading one particular way of explaining it. The transitions in particular will be bad.

Person C with the DVD has better information. He can see the flow. He can see the transitions. He can see from different angles. He stop it and play it back. He can see it in slow motion. He can follow along with it hundreds of times. All of that is better than learning from a live teacher.

However, Person A should have the best reproduction of what the teacher wants. The teacher has the most important traits of all. He has eyes and can speak based on what his eyes have seen. Until DVDs can watch your movement and make case specific corrections they are a weak substitute for a live teacher.

[Kymus]

Some seem to assume that a teacher is perfect and does not make mistakes. So lets say teacher A is Perfect and teaches B then B to C etc. Is the reproduction of the Material going to be the same ?
I say NO.
So what many have learned from Human teachers is already Flawed somewhat. Like wise if I have a DVD to refer to then that does not change. That is why in my opinion many forms while still taught by humans are going to change. Many also seem to think the next generation of student doesnt put their own twist on things so this intimate Knowledge is never the same for one as it is for another, even from the same teacher if any time has passed since the 1st teaching of it. KC

The problem isn't minor changes being made to the form. It's the quality itself. Without a teacher present, it's very easy to make mistakes that will not be corrected. Even advanced students under a good teacher will make small mistakes and the teacher must correct them.

[Iron Palm]

Some seem to assume that a teacher is perfect and does not make mistakes. So lets say teacher A is Perfect and teaches B then B to C etc. Is the reproduction of the Material going to be the same ?
I say NO.
So what many have learned from Human teachers is already Flawed somewhat. Like wise if I have a DVD to refer to then that does not change. That is why in my opinion many forms while still taught by humans are going to change. Many also seem to think the next generation of student doesnt put their own twist on things so this intimate Knowledge is never the same for one as it is for another, even from the same teacher if any time has passed since the 1st teaching of it. KC

Don't know about anyone else, but the point I was trying to make originally was not that teachers are perfect, but that it's highly improbable that: given the same source, a book will produce the same quality instruction as a live person.

I wasn't saying "students who train with live teachers are better than students who train with books", nor was I saying "students who train with Master X are better than students who train with Master Y", so assertions about whoever trains harder are irrelevant. I was saying that given the same student who trains just as hard in each scenario, that person would most probably end up more skilled by learning from a live teacher.

If you're going to learn Ren Guang Yi Tai Chi, you can read his book, you can watch his videos, or you can go learn from him directly. He is who he is, and he's the source for what you're learning, personal flaws or not. Since it's all coming from exactly the same person, why would you expect the result to be unaffected by the method of transmission? Of course you would choose to learn from him directly, if you could. I have no idea how skilled Ren Guang Yi is or isn't, but it doesn't affect the conclusion. He could be a horrible master, and his form could be complete crap, but if you wanted to learn it you would be best served by doing so in person. Just having trained with him in person won't make you a good fighter, but ceteris paribus you should be better trained in person than by book.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean I have no doubt that you know what you talk abot, I was just having fun

I know... just making sure... and I still got PB!!!!!!!

[SoCo KungFu]

Learning to fight is a lot like a science lab. You can remember everything you need to know learning from a book or video. Anyone that says otherwise is just stuck in the past. Every doctor on the planet starts out by leaning from a book. I have a degree that says I can learn from a book (because most professors are just there to clear up things, or foot stomp and say this is the extra important part).

The issue is putting it into practice. Much like I won't trust a researcher that hasn't had time in a lab or in the field actually practicing their science, a fighter won't get anywhere by not fighting.

If you learn from a book or vid, and have someone who on a regular basis pushes you in sparring, etc, then you will be just fine. You'll probably be better off than the idiots doing forms all day in front of a teacher.

The only thing you need to check is, is the book/vid accurate? Does the person writin the book have a f'n clue? Most times, they don't. But neither do most kung fu teachers. And are you pressure testing? I've learned stuff from Eddie Bravo books and pulled on people when rolling. All it takes is a little common sense and practice.

[Lucas]

Sorry to jump in here, and not going at anyone specifically, and may even be out of context...but: :D

Book learning is perfectly fine, but if you start from zero and try to learn a physical endeavor strictly from book learning, you will not be able to get one of the most important aspects to any physical endeavor. Physical correction based on outside observation from an experienced source coach.

I can't tell if we're advocating beginning with video/book learning and only doing that and then sparring regularly, or if talking picking things up from a book/video after you've had enough time in training to 'get a grasp' of how fighting works.

Sparring of course changes the game a bit.. if your sparring partners are also teaching you how to do things properly, drilling things with you, and not just being sparring partners, then you are not truly doing book learning. You have physical teachers/training partners.

You can definitely learn without an instructor, and just sparr to try and figure out some specifics on your own, but you'll suck compared to what you could achieve with a real coach. person on person drills that build skill that you'll then use to a better degree with better understanding in live sparring is important.

you will never find any olympic athlete that never had a coach. likewise you'll never find a world level contender in any sport event that did not have a coach.

If you are a natural, you'll progress alright, but then you will not meet your true potential if you continue to go at it alone.

advocating learning soley from a book or a video is the same thing as suggesting we hold ourselves back, imo.

now if you have prior experience thats one thing, especially if you have actually achieved any degree of skill.

But to take someone who is awkward in movement due to non experience, and ignorant of the way correct movement feels under specific scenarios, they will never gain the same understanding out of a book or a video that they would from having constant, hands on instruction.

This is the reason that not all schools are equal. they may all have access to the same information, but the best schools have the best teachers. A teacher/coach can drive a student to learn faster than they would on their own through proven teaching methods.

[hskwarrior]

Learning
Some seem to assume that a teacher is perfect and does not make mistakes. So lets say teacher A is Perfect and teaches B then B to C etc. Is the reproduction of the Material going to be the same ?
I say NO.
So what many have learned from Human teachers is already Flawed somewhat. Like wise if I have a DVD to refer to then that does not change. That is why in my opinion many forms while still taught by humans are going to change. Many also seem to think the next generation of student doesnt put their own twist on things so this intimate Knowledge is never the same for one as it is for another, even from the same teacher if any time has passed since the 1st teaching of it. KC

any rationalization of why its ok to learn from a book then teach what you think you know is UTTERLY disgusting. and everyone who doesn't see that should join shaolin do.

[kwaichang]

all who have quoted my statements have referred to learning from Books I have never said to Learn from books. KC

[SoCo KungFu]

You can learn anything from a book or video. Doctors learn from books. Pilots learn from videos.

If you think martial arts is so intellectually demanding that you can't learn from a book, then you're probably not running on all cylinders to begin with. This is fn simple ****.

Learning from a book/vid is bound by the same parameters as a class. Not all good fighters are good teachers. Not all good teachers are good fighters, but they know the game and can present material. The only addition to the equation to consider, is the instructor a good writer? I've seen some great books, written in wonderful detail. Nothing could be added that would be gained from class instruction. If the source is high quality, then you're set.

Beyond that, its up to you. A teacher can't will you to do **** right. That comes from you practicing. Same as if you're learning from a book. You know a good way to tell if you're doing it right? Did you get your ass beat in sparring?

The ONLY true advantage that a class has over learning from media, is a ready access to people that want to spar. But lets be real, most kung fu schools don't even have that.

[SoCo KungFu]

you will never find any olympic athlete that never had a coach. likewise you'll never find a world level contender in any sport event that did not have a coach.


Beyond some wrestling, Evan Tanner was largely self taught until he made it to UFC. It was then that competition was high enough he sought out a coach. I don't think anyone here is training for a heavyweight title fight...

[rett]

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is not only 1 path to full understanding. If all somebody did is hear about an armbar/trap/break (let alone see a video/book/etc.) and did the biomechanical research, practice,and application then what would stop them from finding good technique? Just because they didn't learn the technique from some guy named Master Wang that means it's crap?

The problem would be if he marketed it as coming from Master Wang. It's about being honest.

[Empty_Cup]

The problem would be if he marketed it as coming from Master Wang. It's about being honest.

I think everybody on this forum is agreeing you should be honest about the material origins.

[Judge Pen]

Learning to fight is a lot like a science lab. You can remember everything you need to know learning from a book or video. Anyone that says otherwise is just stuck in the past. Every doctor on the planet starts out by leaning from a book. I have a degree that says I can learn from a book (because most professors are just there to clear up things, or foot stomp and say this is the extra important part).

The issue is putting it into practice. Much like I won't trust a researcher that hasn't had time in a lab or in the field actually practicing their science, a fighter won't get anywhere by not fighting.

If you learn from a book or vid, and have someone who on a regular basis pushes you in sparring, etc, then you will be just fine. You'll probably be better off than the idiots doing forms all day in front of a teacher.

The only thing you need to check is, is the book/vid accurate? Does the person writin the book have a f'n clue? Most times, they don't. But neither do most kung fu teachers. And are you pressure testing? I've learned stuff from Eddie Bravo books and pulled on people when rolling. All it takes is a little common sense and practice.

No matter the source of your material, it is a question of efficacy. On the continuum from bad to best, instruction only from book vs. hands-on instruction from a quality and experienced teacher is best, but you are absolutely correct, putting it into practice is essential. And a self-taught person may be more talented or more motivated than another student with the better education. Chances are that the better instruction will make better students who can more easily put their training into practice, but there are always exceptions based on the individual. To say otherwise is to ignore human nature.

[Judge Pen]

And the issue with video came up for reviewing material you have already been taught. I've never learned anything that I try to apply on a regular basis only from a book or video.

[Kymus]

And the issue with video came up for reviewing material you have already been taught. I've never learned anything that I try to apply on a regular basis only from a book or video.

Stop talking sense JP. That's illegal in this thread :mad:

[Lucas]

Beyond some wrestling, Evan Tanner was largely self taught until he made it to UFC. It was then that competition was high enough he sought out a coach. I don't think anyone here is training for a heavyweight title fight...

I hear ya...bu you know, you actually reinforce my point perfectly with your example. to reach your full potential in something like martial arts, basketball, football, gymnastics etc. you need a coach(s).

Evan Tanner was state high school wrestling champ. he had a coach during his entire introduction to grappling/martial arts. starting as a sophmore and then winning texas state champs as a junior and senior. thats 3 school years of wrestling coaching.

I don't believe you are actualy advocating holding oneself back.

like i said, I agree, yes you can learn fine from a book or a video, but you will not reach your actual potential. if you disagree with me, thats fine. no one may be training for the world heavy weight in anything, but why does that mean we don't want to be the best that we can?

[Syn7]

I dunno. I did pretty well in wrestling and I had a great coach who was NOT hands on. He was there when you needed it, but you had to ask for it. He showed us the moves and explained the theory then sent us off to the mats to make us make it work for ourselves. He didn't interfere unless you were making horrific mistakes or you asked for it. Otherwise he just sat back and watched with his drink(yes, DRINK). We had a great team and we worked well together as a unit.

In gymnastics I had a very hands on coach. He was there every step of the way and was really big on safety. He did micromanage us to an extent, but we all benefited to some extent. We didn't have to ask, he was just there every step of the way. We did well. Put on shows, won local comps etc...

As a bboy, I was 100% self taught. I watched music videos and copied people I knew or saw live. I was too proud to ask for help, but my hunger was huge and I pushed through it till I got it right. All that time in was a real asset. I didn't take any classes till I started teaching, and even then it was to be a better teacher. Or to learn another style that I just wanted to get the fundamentals just to be able to say I can do it.

I can honestly say I find value in both. On the one hand, it's awesome to have a valued resource that can answer questions and offer guidance. On the other hand, if you are hungry, you will get through it and be better for the experience in more ways than you expect when you start.

I think it really comes down to your motivations, natural talent and desire to truly learn. If you want it bad enough and have some sort of affinity for it, you will excel if you put in the effort. Whether that is going step by step with an instructor, or pushing pause play pause play and the video, it's gonna happen for you.

All that being said, I have more respect for the self made. The ones who pushed through despite not having the advantages others have. If you have a world class teacher and don't become world class yourself, you're a joke. If you do it on your own, you're a god!

The one thing all these have in common is that we actually practiced our end goal. We didn't walk through steps to learn dance. We didn't do mock handspings to learn handsprings, we didn't envision a wrestling match to wrestle. We went out there, got sweaty and dirty and did what we came to do.

[SoCo KungFu]

I hear ya...bu you know, you actually reinforce my point perfectly with your example. to reach your full potential in something like martial arts, basketball, football, gymnastics etc. you need a coach(s).

Evan Tanner was state high school wrestling champ. he had a coach during his entire introduction to grappling/martial arts. starting as a sophmore and then winning texas state champs as a junior and senior. thats 3 school years of wrestling coaching.

I don't believe you are actualy advocating holding oneself back.

like i said, I agree, yes you can learn fine from a book or a video, but you will not reach your actual potential. if you disagree with me, thats fine. no one may be training for the world heavy weight in anything, but why does that mean we don't want to be the best that we can?

Because a coach/teacher is not the most important piece to the puzzle. They're just a source, like any other. The coach isn't helping you reach that potential any more than a book or vid. What is helping you get to that peak is having partners willing to kick your ass day in and day out. That's what pushes you to your peak. A coach facilitates this relationship. That's the greatest perk to a traditional school.

[CQCKenpo]

With regards to the learning from book/dvd/personal instruction issue, I believe that another factor is the different training backgrounds of individual students. How a student performs katas/forms will be affected by their prior training. For example, at my Kenpo school, prior to studying Kenpo one senior student had trained in Shotokan, one senior student (myself) had trained in TCMA (under Master Yang Jwing Ming and Master Victor Cheng), and a third had no prior training. We all received our kenpo training from the same instructor, but when you watch us perform the kenpo katas you can see evidence of our prior training in how we perform the katas. As a result, an outside observor might conclude that one of us "must have learned from a book or dvd."

Also, in some cases a book or dvd may be the only learning method available. Not everyone live in areas that are rich martial arts (LA, San Francisco, New York City) and moving is not an option. If you live in the Panhandle of Nebraska (for example), the only way to learn a particular system, such as Praying Mantis kung fu, may be through books or dvds. I do not believe criticizing these people for "not seeking out a personal instructor" is fair.

Finally, regarding individual instruction. Just because you have received personal, instruction does not mean that you have learned the form correctly. Let's say that your instructor teaches you the Yang Tai Chi short form in a particular way. Then you obtain Master Yang Jwing Ming's dvd (or the dvd by any other recognized master) and you learn that the way you were taught is different from that on the dvd. Who do you follow then? Your personal instructor or the dvd?

[CQCKenpo]

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

JP,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I hold black belts in Kenpo Karate, Kenpo Jujitsu (a hybrid system that includes standup throwing and ground grappling), and Modern Arnis. Due to moves for work-related issues, I have also received training in a variety of other systems, including Shaolin Long Fist, White Crane and Chin Na (under Master Yang Jwing Ming), Northern Long Fist (under Master Victor Cheng), as well as wing chun, shotokan, tae kwon do, and judo under various instructors.

In my early 40's, I started studying Kenpo and I found a system that focused on the areas of study that I personally enjoyed in Shaolindo. Back at UK in 1972, a group of mid-rank students (including myself) formed a "study group" in which we focused on practicing Shaolindo's 10 ippon kumite (yes they were still teaching the tenth ippon at the time), the 10 hand-to-hand or street techniques, and sparring. We also analyzed the short and long katas, pulling out individual moves and turning them into one-step sparring drills. (By the way, at that time there was no instruction in the applications of the kata movements. We had to find practical applications on our own).

Much of Kenpo karate material consists of similar one-on-one techniques and applications. That was what drew me to the system.

As to how Kenpo techniques compare to Shaolindo's techniques, well as you would expect, some I feel very confident in applying in a real situation - others just don't work for me, no matter how hard I train -- even though other people with different body builds can apply them quite well. The beginning Kenpo techniques resemble Shaolindo's ippon kumite as far as being very simple and basic, while others are similar to Shaolindo's self-defense techniques.

How I know that at least two of the Shaolindo Hand-to-Hand techniques work goes back to my graduate school days. Please note that this was the ONLY time that I have had to use any of my training and it was not a life-or-death issue, but it did give me confidence in two techniques. I had been invited to a party by someone in my department. I had just arrived, grabbed a soda, and started talking to a young woman standing next to me when a man walked up and accused me of "hitting on his girl." Without warning he threw a punch and reflexively I did Hand-to-Hand #2 (basically a judo osotogari). I don't think I will ever forget the look of shock on his face as he found himself lying flat on the ground. I then helped him to his feet -- not thinking this was anything serious -- and jokingly said, "try again if you like." I was shocked when he proceeded to throw a second punch (okay, I was young and stupid). This time I reflexively did Hand-to-Hand #1 where you block/parry, seize the arm and swing it downward, bringing his head down for a kick. In this case I was wearing soft soled tennis shoes, so I gently tapped him in the forehead and then pushed him away. He decided that he had had enough and walked away, cussing me out. I quickly left the party after that.

As I said, this was not a desperate, life and death struggle and I am sure a number of other contributors could come up with much better stories. But this is the only one I have. As I said, based on this one experience I felt that the training that I had received in Shaolindo did prepare me for the one time I needed it - and worked.

The flaming can now commence...

[CQCKenpo]

What sytems do you hold black belts in? How do the applicability of the techniques in those systems compare to your training in SD many moons ago?

JP,

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I hold black belts in Kenpo Karate, Kenpo Jujitsu (a hybrid system that includes standup throwing and ground grappling), and Modern Arnis. Due to moves for work-related issues, I have also received training in a variety of other systems, including Shaolin Long Fist, White Crane and Chin Na (under Master Yang Jwing Ming), Northern Long Fist (under Master Victor Cheng), as well as wing chun, shotokan, tae kwon do, and judo under various instructors.

In my early 40's, I started studying Kenpo and I found a system that focused on the areas of study that I personally enjoyed in Shaolindo. Back at UK in 1972, a group of mid-rank students (including myself) formed a "study group" in which we focused on practicing Shaolindo's 10 ippon kumite (yes they were still teaching the tenth ippon at the time), the 10 hand-to-hand or street techniques, and sparring. We also analyzed the short and long katas, pulling out individual moves and turning them into one-step sparring drills. (By the way, at that time there was no instruction in the applications of the kata movements. We had to find practical applications on our own).

Much of Kenpo karate material consists of similar one-on-one techniques and applications. That was what drew me to the system.

As to how Kenpo techniques compare to Shaolindo's techniques, well as you would expect, some I feel very confident in applying in a real situation - others just don't work for me, no matter how hard I train -- even though other people with different body builds can apply them quite well. The beginning Kenpo techniques resemble Shaolindo's ippon kumite as far as being very simple and basic, while others are similar to Shaolindo's self-defense techniques.

How I know that at least two of the Shaolindo Hand-to-Hand techniques work goes back to my graduate school days. Please note that this was the ONLY time that I have had to use any of my training and it was not a life-or-death issue, but it did give me confidence in two techniques. I had been invited to a party by someone in my department. I had just arrived, grabbed a soda, and started talking to a young woman standing next to me when a man walked up and accused me of "hitting on his girl." Without warning he threw a punch and reflexively I did Hand-to-Hand #2 (basically a judo osotogari). I don't think I will ever forget the look of shock on his face as he found himself lying flat on the ground. I then helped him to his feet -- not thinking this was anything serious -- and jokingly said, "try again if you like." I was shocked when he proceeded to throw a second punch (okay, I was young and stupid). This time I reflexively did Hand-to-Hand #1 where you block/parry, seize the arm and swing it downward, bringing his head down for a kick. In this case I was wearing soft soled tennis shoes, so I gently tapped him in the forehead and then pushed him away. He decided that he had had enough and walked away, cussing me out. I quickly left the party after that.

As I said, this was not a desperate, life and death struggle and I am sure a number of other contributors could come up with much better stories. But this is the only one I have. As I said, based on this one experience I felt that the training that I had received in Shaolindo did prepare me for the one time I needed it - and worked.

The flaming can now commence...

[kwaichang]

I too learned the number 10 technique. I liked it. KC
P.S. Thanks for the in put.

[shen ku]

I was also taught number 10 and I like it. I was always told that someone got a little carried away on test with it one time and that was the reason it wasn't shown a lot anymore.

[Judge Pen]

I was also taught number 10 and I like it. I was always told that someone got a little carried away on test with it one time and that was the reason it wasn't shown a lot anymore.

I think that's exactly right. The technique itself isn't super-secret or deadly, but someone got hurt badly once so people were told not to teach it anymore.

[JSE]

I think that's exactly right. The technique itself isn't super-secret or deadly, but someone got hurt badly once so people were told not to teach it anymore.

That can't possibly be the real story. SD techniques cannot be effective enough to actually injure someone!!! :eek:

I was told the same thing. We still learned and practiced the technique, just went through the motions of the that part.

[Judge Pen]

That can't possibly be the real story. SD techniques cannot be effective enough to actually injure someone!!! :eek:

I was told the same thing. We still learned and practiced the technique, just went through the motions of the that part.

It was an accident. SD's techniques can only injury someone accidently. :p

[bodhi warrior]

It was an accident. SD's techniques can only injury someone accidently. :p

Lol! Can you describe the technique?

[shen ku]

basicly it has you breaking an arm over your shoulder, it is easy to pull down just a little to hard, or have a lazy partner not watching out for his own arm.

[Judge Pen]

basicly it has you breaking an arm over your shoulder, it is easy to pull down just a little to hard, or have a lazy partner not watching out for his own arm.

It's an over the shoulder throw that is also an arm break in the process. I think the accident occured when someone actually threw their partner, and they broke an ankle in the process. At least that was what I was told.

Again, not a bad technique, and one that ought to be taught, but a freak accident derailed that technique.

Yet, I'm sure some teachers used it to feed the mystique that some techniques are "too deadly" to teach.

[shen ku]

I understood the injury to have been to the.elbow

[shen ku]

Its funny how this thing can do two or three pages a day and then do nothing for weeks

[kwaichang]

The Sh%^ is about to hit the fan , new news coming to SD lets see who posts 1st. KC

[bodhi warrior]

The Sh%^ is about to hit the fan , new news coming to SD lets see who posts 1st. KC

Dude! Lets here it! Lol

[OldandUsed]

Okay, what has happened? I have not heard any new scandal.

[Old Noob]

Out with it KC! Dish!!

[OldandUsed]

Yeah, give it up!

[kwaichang]

One of the most prominent Elder Masters has withdrawn from association with GMT, having to do with the Soard sex fiasco, which has come to the attention of GMT. It also includes Soards wife asking BB testing students for favors etc. Lets see if this new news has anything to do with them teaching any more as well. KC:)

[Old Noob]

So much of the negative reputation of SD (not all, but a lot) has come from them. The cultish behavior, the sex assaults, the worst fu in the system (on average; not that there aren't good practitioners out there). Is it just the cash that keeps GMT from booting them?

[OldandUsed]

Sadly, they are not the only instructors GMT has kept around because they brought in dollars, but lacked quality.

[bodhi warrior]

One of the most prominent Elder Masters has withdrawn from association with GMT, having to do with the Soard sex fiasco, which has come to the attention of GMT. It also includes Soards wife asking BB testing students for favors etc. Lets see if this new news has anything to do with them teaching any more as well. KC:)

So an elder master has left because sin the sided with the Soards in the sex scandal?

[RJ797]

Sin The knew all about the sex scandal - but protected the Soards at costs.

Only two of the 8th Degrees are not Kool-Aid drinkers and Kool-Aid sales people.

Mullins and Grooms. - There is a reason those two aren't on SDA website.

I thought Grooms had been gone for awhile. So - is it Mullins?