Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[GeneChing]

...but I have yet to see anything in a published news source.

[kungfujunky]

The Soards have lost over 10 schools and more leave all the time.

It was only a matter of time before this happened.

[OldandUsed]

I would be surprised to see this hit the news, unless there was ANOTHER sex scandal. otherwise, just in-house drama.

[bodhi warrior]

...but I have yet to see anything in a published news source.

Does this rumor involve Sin The' or the soards?

[Old Noob]

Haven't left GMT; they just split from the Lexington Branch like the Soards did. In fact, most of the schools that split from the Soards are now managed/supervised/pay their mob kickbacks to Grooms/Mullins. In fact, all of the elder masters are still tight with GMT as far as I know. News to the contrary would, indeed, be news.

[kungfujunky]

those schools do not pay kickbacks to mullins/grooms. They only pay if they want them to do a seminar.

[Old Noob]

those schools do not pay kickbacks to mullins/grooms. They only pay if they want them to do a seminar.

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Sorry for that. It was a joking allusion to Rydberg's allegation that GMT required a certain number of testing/seminar fees per year from his schools.

[sean_stonehart]

This sounds like this is something new.

The previous "news worthy" happening was '09 or there about.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13429545

[kungfujunky]

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Sorry for that. It was a joking allusion to Rydberg's allegation that GMT required a certain number of testing/seminar fees per year from his schools.

No worries man...didnt mean to come off to harsh lol. Just clarifying.

[kwaichang]

Haven't left GMT; they just split from the Lexington Branch like the Soards did. In fact, most of the schools that split from the Soards are now managed/supervised/pay their mob kickbacks to Grooms/Mullins. In fact, all of the elder masters are still tight with GMT as far as I know. News to the contrary would, indeed, be news.


Then it is News, Indeed and it is new, There was a meeting and it is a done deal. KC

[bodhi warrior]

Then it is News, Indeed and it is new, There was a meeting and it is a done deal. KC

It would be big news. But is it really bad news. This may be just what needs to happen for the good of everybody.

[GeneChing]

Does this rumor involve Sin The' or the soards? We'll see. If the rumors are true, then there should be some news item published on it eventually.

[kwaichang]

This is not a rumor got from the horses mouth. As far as the Soards are concerned the Legal action is pending, It should be "news" soon. Sad really because MA do not need this kind of publicity. It hurts us all. KC

[RJ797]

Hopefully, whatever legal action might be pending will finally produce some justice regarding the Soards.

As far as what is happening with other 8th blacks - Grooms and Mullins are already gone. Maybe Nance has enough integrity to follow suit. The rest of them are entirely brainwashed.

[kungfujunky]

I agree I hope nance walks away. Ultimately I hope the soards get the boot finally.

[bodhi warrior]

Hopefully, whatever legal action might be pending will finally produce some justice regarding the Soards.

As far as what is happening with other 8th blacks - Grooms and Mullins are already gone. Maybe Nance has enough integrity to follow suit. The rest of them are entirely brainwashed.

When you say gone, do you mean totally seperated from Sin?

[RJ797]

Yes. The Atlanta schools may do whatever they are going to do - but it's been about 10 years since Grooms was directly controlling Atlanta. If those schools still advertise themselves as connected to Sin The - that is their choice.

Grooms is completely unwelcome in Lexington and has been for a long time. If there is any doubt just look at what Grooms does for Tai Chi, Ba Gua etc and compare it to Sin The and Bill Leonard. If he was trying to be part of the team he would look as bad as Bill Leonard.

While Grooms appears to have just walked off into the sunset, Mullins has been more direct. From what I understand Mullins has made it clear he is no longer involved. Mullins, Grooms and Nance are about the only senior SD people worth a ****.

Regardless of lineage etc. Mullins is a superior kung fu practitioner, Grooms is a superior internal arts practitioner and Nance can just plain hurt you. I hope Nance decides his integrity is worth more than his years with Sin The.

It is not an easy choice for anyone who has been around awhile, but Sin The has made it clear that the Soards money is more important than anything else.

[kungfujunky]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201637386522873&set=o.117936314885602&type=2&theater

David Soard doing some chain whip

[ShaolinDan]

Well, I wasn't going to post this picture--just took it for my own amusement. But it seems to be the right time to share it now. Here's a present from Shaolin Temple to all you Soards fans. :p

[Old Noob]

What exactly happened?

[Judge Pen]

I've only heard that Mullins has decided to split from Sin The, but that was not directly from the source so all I can offer is conjecture.

[GeneChing]

This is not a rumor got from the horses mouth. As far as the Soards are concerned the Legal action is pending, It should be "news" soon. Sad really because MA do not need this kind of publicity. It hurts us all. KC You must understand from my journalistic standpoint, it still must be defined as a rumor until validated. When that news emerges publicly, I'm sure some one will post it here. And I totally agree with you about bad publicity for MA. We've been getting so much negative press this year already.

[Old Noob]

You guys are killing me.

[kwaichang]

OLd Noob just something to talk about. Look for a new and improved Shaolin Do organization. KC

[beng]

Did anyone ever get in contact with the Monkey guy in the Netherlands?

[GeneChing]

You guys are killing me. For twelve years - a complete Chinese zodiac cycle (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/horoscope/index.php), this thread has been killing me. :o

[OldandUsed]

Then why not give it a mercy round to the head and move on?

[bodhi warrior]

OLd Noob just something to talk about. Look for a new and improved Shaolin Do organization. KC

So is Sin The' no longer going to be involved. Because if he stays nothing will ever change. Forms will continue to be copied, people will continue to be promoted undeservedly, and it will always be about his bank account.

[Leto]

SO what exactly is the rumor, or rumors? KC, you can't say there's big news and then not say what it is. Well, you did, but that sux. :) JP says Mullins is possibly separating from SKT. KC implied something about legal activity with the Soards, and a change for the SD organization, which would all seem to be unrelated. Acknowledging it is only rumor at this point, why not just say it plainly? Out with it, man!

[kwaichang]

i responded and lost the post will post later. KC

[Judge Pen]

So is Sin The' no longer going to be involved. Because if he stays nothing will ever change. Forms will continue to be copied, people will continue to be promoted undeservedly, and it will always be about his bank account.

Regardless, nothing will change; at least not globaly. When Sin The quits, dies, retires, then each faction will just become more factionalized without a common thread running among them. That will be good for some that have been trying to do things there own way and/or make the best with the material that they have been given. For other groups, they will continue to expound on the mumbo-jumbo they have been feeding their students for years with Sin The's (at least tacit) blessing.

[sean_stonehart]

... (at least tacit) blessing.

Easy now... no reason to use lawyer size words on us... :eek:;):D:D:D

[JSE]

Regardless, nothing will change; at least not globaly. When Sin The quits, dies, retires, then each faction will just become more factionalized without a common thread running among them. That will be good for some that have been trying to do things there own way and/or make the best with the material that they have been given. For other groups, they will continue to expound on the mumbo-jumbo they have been feeding their students for years with Sin The's (at least tacit) blessing.

I'm curious as to how many new "grandmasters" will arise. This all should be quite entertaining.

[kwaichang]

Every one that starts their own style will then be a grand master , Right ? KC

[JSE]

As I understand it yes. But will any of them really be starting their own style. My assumption is they will still teach all of the same material, under their own name. So are they truly a grandmaster? With Mullins splitting, is he now the grandmaster of Mullins Shaolin?

Ah well. I will just sit back and watch. See ya tomorrow! :D

[RJ797]

There are nine 8th degrees and one 9th. If the Soards split - or get thrown out - I would expect some super grand master title to pop up in Denver.

As to the rest, only Leonard and Smith have egos big enough to make themselves grand masters - but they are the most loyal to Sin The. So, they will not be splitting.

Of the remaining six 8th degrees I don't see Mingione or Price going anywhere.

Grooms and Mullins both appear to be gone already. That leaves us with Green and Nance as possible defectors. Don't know much about Green - but I don't see Grooms, Mullins or Nance making themselves grand masters. They will just teach what they feel best about teaching.

[bodhi warrior]

There are nine 8th degrees and one 9th. If the Soards split - or get thrown out - I would expect some super grand master title to pop up in Denver.

As to the rest, only Leonard and Smith have egos big enough to make themselves grand masters - but they are the most loyal to Sin The. So, they will not be splitting.

Of the remaining six 8th degrees I don't see Mingione or Price going anywhere.

Grooms and Mullins both appear to be gone already. That leaves us with Green and Nance as possible defectors. Don't know much about Green - but I don't see Grooms, Mullins or Nance making themselves grand masters. They will just teach what they feel best about teaching.

Whatever happened to Eric smith anyway? Has he went into hiding or something?

[RJ797]

Eric shows up at the seminars in Lexington. Probably looking for more "investors"

It's been about 20 years since he was really training. He looks more than a little porky.

[pazman]

Monkey beaks and hairy freaks.

[bodhi warrior]

Eric shows up at the seminars in Lexington. Probably looking for more "investors"

It's been about 20 years since he was really training. He looks more than a little porky.

Shame, he seemed really strong back in the day.

[Judge Pen]

There are nine 8th degrees and one 9th. If the Soards split - or get thrown out - I would expect some super grand master title to pop up in Denver.

As to the rest, only Leonard and Smith have egos big enough to make themselves grand masters - but they are the most loyal to Sin The. So, they will not be splitting.

Of the remaining six 8th degrees I don't see Mingione or Price going anywhere.

Grooms and Mullins both appear to be gone already. That leaves us with Green and Nance as possible defectors. Don't know much about Green - but I don't see Grooms, Mullins or Nance making themselves grand masters. They will just teach what they feel best about teaching.

There's also Mingogne (sp?). He doesn't have a large class, but he is up there in rank and skill.

It would not surprise me if any/all the defectors started calling themselves the grandmaster of their style. I would also expect them to start teaching material that they were not allowed to teach under Sin The to further distinguish themselves. I would also expect their to be more reaching out to Hiang The and his students as well.

[Baqualin]

Is Shaolin-Do real

Is Shaolin-Do Dead

Fixed it!
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

Is Shaolin-Do real

Is Shaolin-Do Dead

Fixed it!
BQ

So is it dead?

[shen ku]

It will never be dead some will save way they think is good others will save what others think is bad. Nothing is ever created or destroyed

[Snipsky]

It will never be dead some will save way they think is good others will save what others think is bad. Nothing is ever created or destroyed

Shaolin Do is very fake with even faker people behind it. Shaolin Do = Delusional Cult Followers.

[bodhi warrior]

Wow. This news really must've really been big. One whole person heard something.

[rett]

Monkey beaks and hairy freaks.

strawberry feeeeels forever

[Old Noob]

Their waiting until after the fall gathering to make whatever announcement there is (if there is an announcement). They're pitching the gathering in a strange way this year.

[bodhi warrior]

Their waiting until after the fall gathering to make whatever announcement there is (if there is an announcement). They're pitching the gathering in a strange way this year.

Strange in what way?

[Old Noob]

Strange in what way?

I'm no expert on the Lexington fall gathering because I've never actually gone. Still, this year, my sifu is having an informational meeting for everyone interested in going to talk about what will happen there. He's never done that before. Also, testing is scheduled for a different weekend altogether, which is also different from times past. I'm not sure any of this means anything but I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop since KC was getting all cryptic up in here and these seem to be deviations from the norm.

[kwaichang]

THe shoe is dropping slowly per a PM to me. But more will happen soon . KC wait and see.

[kungfujunky]

Any Colorado folks or anyone else for that matter that would like to train some internal arts with Elder Master Gary send me a PM.

[kungfujunky]

Wow this group I found has a ton of older but interesting data on this subject...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.martial-arts/sin$20kwang$20the%7Csort:relevance

[Empty_Cup]

Wow this group I found has a ton of older but interesting data on this subject...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.martial-arts/sin$20kwang$20the%7Csort:relevance

Looks like the same old stuff to me...

[hskwarrior]

> FUKIEN TEMPLE-only 24 forms???
>
> If Shaolin Do is from the Fukien Temple, why do they have so little material
> from the temple it came from? They have more material from the other temples
> by far! How is this explained?

In the same book you got that information from, it goes into the history of Su
Kong. Normally, very few were allowed to learn all of a style and almost never
more than one because of issues of trust. Since Su Kong was orphaned and raised
in the temple by the monks, they had complete trust in Su Kong. He was the first
to go around to all the temples and master every form of shaolin. Thus, Su Kong
knew everything in ALL the temples but was at the Fukien temple during his life.
Grandmaster Ie was Su Kong's direct student. He learned everything Su Kong
learned.

You Say: Well, the temple was burned losing a lot of documentation on all
those forms.
How could he remember all that?

Answer: Some of this survived when the temple was burned because the monks
had knowledge in advance that the troops were coming to raid the temple(the
leader was shaolin). When the troops arrived, they found the temple already
burned. The shaolin monks burned the temple themselves. Since they knew in
advance about the plot, they obviously took some stuff with them.

Anyway, Sin The was a direct student of Grandmaster Ie. Therefore, as proved
above, he knows more than just what was at the Fukien temple.

Were you in active in debate in school James? You argue like a CX'er.

B Slone




LMAO at all of that

[Kymus]

There's also Mingogne (sp?). He doesn't have a large class, but he is up there in rank and skill.

It would not surprise me if any/all the defectors started calling themselves the grandmaster of their style. I would also expect them to start teaching material that they were not allowed to teach under Sin The to further distinguish themselves. I would also expect their to be more reaching out to Hiang The and his students as well.

+1 JP.

That would not surprise me in the least.

[kungfujunky]

Asheville just made a facebook post stating their separation from The.

[kwaichang]

Is the only one thus far to do so. That I know of. Except for Knoxville Tn Group. KC

[shen ku]

i love it when people take an action with such a high claim, i understand their point, but most of the time they also shortly come up on their own fall. Just the way i have seen things happen.

[Old Noob]

I think it is interesting that the apparent reason for the split, as is implied in the Asheville announcement, is that they can't support GMT when he continues to support the Soards after the sexual assault incident rather than being based on the obvious falsity regarding the material's origins.

Granted, I'm reading between the lines but it seems like Asheville is saying that it would be unethical to stay associated with a man who backs the Soards while it is, apparently, still okay to misrepresent the source of your material.

[Judge Pen]

I think it is interesting that the apparent reason for the split, as is implied in the Asheville announcement, is that they can't support GMT when he continues to support the Soards after the sexual assault incident rather than being based on the obvious falsity regarding the material's origins.

Granted, I'm reading between the lines but it seems like Asheville is saying that it would be unethical to stay associated with a man who backs the Soards while it is, apparently, still okay to misrepresent the source of your material.

Probably because they still believe in the origins of the material.

[Old Noob]

Probably because they still believe in the origins of the material.

Probably so, but Knoxville left over the false material claims and not the Soard issue specifically, no?

[Judge Pen]

Probably so, but Knoxville left over the false material claims and not the Soard issue specifically, no?

Yes the teacher in West Knoxville did, but I understand he amicably disassociated from Elder Master Mullins in that process.

[bodhi warrior]

I think it is interesting that the apparent reason for the split, as is implied in the Asheville announcement, is that they can't support GMT when he continues to support the Soards after the sexual assault incident rather than being based on the obvious falsity regarding the material's origins.

Granted, I'm reading between the lines but it seems like Asheville is saying that it would be unethical to stay associated with a man who backs the Soards while it is, apparently, still okay to misrepresent the source of your material.

The fb post never really explains the reason. So I wonder what was the final straw that made them leave?

[Old Noob]

The fb post never really explains the reason. So I wonder what was the final straw that made them leave?

I agree. I'm working on certain assumptions; primarily the assertion that he chose to specifically mention the out west practitioners. Though this could be referring to SD, Texas, I took him to be talking about the Soards. I also considered that he was still crediting the Temple:Su Kong:Ie:Sin The passage of material, which suggested to me that the beef that Ashville had was more likely attributable to fallout from the Soard situation rather than the GMT-made-this-all-up situation. As I said, I think its implicit rather than explicit; and the timing is wierd. Why is the split happening now since the Soard stuff happened a while ago?

[kungfujunky]

from what I have heard there is another legal action pending...but I have nothing to verify that.

[Empty_Cup]

... Why is the split happening now since the Soard stuff happened a while ago?

Same question I have. Also the deposition happened awhile ago. None of this is new so why now?

[Old Noob]

from what I have heard there is another legal action pending...but I have nothing to verify that.


Same question I have. Also the deposition happened awhile ago. None of this is new so why now?

Since civil litigation moves as slow as mud, it is possible that legal actions began (or the precursor negotiations began) at the time and have only neared resolution now.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know why now. It's been implied that there's some new scandal on the horizon with the Soards that have not come to public light just yet, but I don't know the accuracy of that implication. We will just have to wait and see.

Better late than never.

[JSE]

I believe this new issue with the Soards is just the straw that broke the camel's back. Mullins was trying to remain loyal to his master, even through all of the lineage, lawsuit, make up material scandal. But given the alleged context of the latest Soard fiasco, I believe he has seen the light so to speak. It's a ****ed if you do ****ed if you don't scenario. Remain affiliated and "support" the deception. Break away and "why did it take you so long". I'm sure there was some ego involved, and having to admit that someone you respect and/or idolize isn't all they represented themselves to be for decades. Hard pill to swallow I'm sure. But it's done and I believe the Mullins clan will be better for it.

[themindreader]

I know Mullins well and he is no better than the Soards in the morals department.

Seeing the light is non sense he is splitting for other reasons than the moral activiites that occured by the Soards. My guess it is financial, getting test fees and seminar money the should go to Sin The. This has been the reason for the other splits along with inflated egos with marginal skill.

In fact he had his own controversy which forced him to move from KY to TN related to being amoral. He is in love with himself, when he taught he would show off flexing his muscles wthout a shirt and trying to get to "know" every mother that would acknowledge his presence. Half his class was based on his showing off and trying to create catchy sayings that made no sense.

Mullins teachers are fooling themselves if think that they have to leave because Sin The has not addressed the Soards properly it is Mullins ego and the big gain he got when Sin The placed the splitting schools under his watch. He saw this as an opportunity.

Sin The's fault is bad judgement and cultural differences. Think about the money the Soards have given him over the years. People will focus on their livilhoods first and he was trying to keep everybody going to keep his livlihood. I also imagine he felt obligated to the Soards. This was just bad judgement and lack of understanding our culture.

Basically Sin The is a good person, I've known him for years and he will help his students.

The poor students that think they are "safer" with Mullins than the Soards will have a rude awakening one day.

[Old Noob]

I know Mullins well and he is no better than the Soards in the morals department.

In fact he had his own controversy which forced him to move from KY to TN related to being amoral. He is in love with himself, when he taught he would show off flexing his muscles wthout a shirt and trying to get to "know" every mother that would acknowledge his presence. Half his class was based on his showing off and trying to create catchy sayings that made no sense.

Mullins teachers are fooling themselves if think that they have to leave because Sin The has not addressed the Soards properly it is Mullins ego and the big gain he got when Sin The placed the splitting schools under his watch. He saw this as an opportunity.

The poor students that think they are "safer" with Mullins than the Soards will have a rude awakening one day.

Welcome to the forum, one post, joined yesterday, potential libeler!

[themindreader]

Welcome to the forum, one post, joined yesterday, potential libeler!

I am stating a fact, do you know why Mullins was forced to move from his hometown of Kentucky to TN? Do you know the circumstances? If you don't know the circumstances then you don't know anything about him.

It sounds like you are maybe a student or affiliated with Mullins? Who is your teacher, I know most of them or know about most of them. It would be helpful to know what your background is.

I joined because I have read these posts and wanted to comment on what I thought was not realistic (Mullins believeing he can't be affiliated because of the Soards imoral activity since Sin The didn't kick them out), it seemed fine to him for a couple of years, as it appears most of the posts do not know much about the players.

I've known Mullins for 28 years and all the other major players.

[Old Noob]

I am stating a fact, do you know why Mullins was forced to move from his hometown of Kentucky to TN? Do you know the circumstances? If you don't know the circumstances then you don't know anything about him.

It sounds like you are maybe a student or affiliated with Mullins? Who is your teacher, I know most of them or know about most of them. It would be helpful to know what your background is.

I joined because I have read these posts and wanted to comment on what I thought was not realistic (Mullins believeing he can't be affiliated because of the Soards imoral activity since Sin The didn't kick them out), it seemed fine to him for a couple of years, as it appears most of the posts do not know much about the players.

I've known Mullins for 28 years and all the other major players.

No. I'm not a Mullins student, though a couple of people I know and respect are or were and speak highly of him. I'm fortunately fairly far removed from the fruckus in DC.

I'm actually curious about what light you can shed on what's going on in the SD community.

As for the libel stuff, I was just goofing on you; there's a lot of goofing around here. It sounds like you're confident that you could mount the defense of truth.

[JSE]

as it appears most of the posts do not know much about the players.

I've known Mullins for 28 years and all the other major players.


Care to enlighten us mushrooms?

[Snipsky]

SHAOLIN DOUGH = with inflated egos with marginal skill.

[kungfujunky]

Basically Sin The is a good person, I've known him for years and he will help his students.


This statement is not true. Sin does what the soards tell him to. He will turn his back on students and ignore their pleas for help if David and Sharon say so.

[themindreader]

This statement is not true. Sin does what the soards tell him to. He will turn his back on students and ignore their pleas for help if David and Sharon say so.

Sin The does not take orders or is directed by the Soards or anybody. This is ridiculous.

The proper way was for the teachers to contract Sin The and discuss their issue and leave the Soards and report directly to Sin The or one of his other high ups.

Sin The never says a class or teach must endure or report to a pervert thats not how it works. He is reasonable especially if a group got together and discussed it with him.

What is not acceptable is splitting altogether because of the issue.

At the end of the day Shaolin do (what ever it is) is his, he brought it here he owns it.

Sin The sued Mr Mace because that is what he does if you quit him for whatever reason he has done it twice before, the Soards didn't make him do this, he did it because that is the cardinal sin of Shaolin Do quitting Sin The and contining to teach.

Mr Mace and other cannot and should not go alone just because their teacher is a werido. The could have stayed with Sin The and gotten away from the werido. Splitting like he did was an excuse.

Sin the should have kicked the Soards out no question but he didnt as I mentioned it is his livlihood at stake and also his obligation to them and cultural reasons. That is lack of judgement not being a bad person.

These people were adults nothing forced them to go to the Soards.

[themindreader]

Care to enlighten us mushrooms?

Bill Leonard was Mullins teacher as he was Hamiltion and Porter.

When the bluegrass conspiriacy occurred Leonard disappeared. Mullins, Van Over, Hamilton and Porter all flew up the ranks during his absence. They also flew up the ranks because they had large schools. All of is high up flew up the ranks because they had large schools.

When Escobar was killed by the DEA, Leonard reappeared. Mullins was fearful as he know Leonard has to be top dog. I even heard him mention his concern which shocked me as he was so macho. Ealier, once Leonard broke Mullins leg during a sparring session (full leg cast) because Leonard thought Mullins was being ****y.

Hamilton was dissatified because Sin The stopped teaching him so he went to Sean The. Sin The heard this and hit the roof and kicked him out and sued him when he tried to continue to teach.

Porter left fot he same reason but no one cared as porter was never well thought of.

Van over was kicked out because Sin The told me there were missing GIS and he blamed Van Over. He gave Van Over a chance to pay him back but Van Over refused and Sin Kicked him out and sued him when he tried to continue to teach.

Mullins left Sin The for 3 reasons 1) He doesnt want to lose the group that used to report to the Soard and by disassociating with Sin The it helps to secure them. 2.) He likes the money he will make that was going to Sin The. 3.) He can never exceed his teacher Leonard in rank. Mullins wants to be Sin The plain and simple, he got a taste of this when the group was moved to him and he went mad.

Basically all of the high up mentioned all have big egos and want to be Sin The. When it dawns on them that is not going to happen they decide to split and take it all for themselves.

I find it ridiculous that anyone that truely knows Mullins would think he left Sin The because of the Soard controversey. I am sure that is what he says to these people to gain their trust and control but he would the same as the Soards given the chance.

If these people really want to distance themselves from amoral individuals they would disassocate from Mullins.

[bodhi warrior]

Bill Leonard was Mullins teacher as he was Hamiltion and Porter.

When the bluegrass conspiriacy occurred Leonard disappeared. Mullins, Van Over, Hamilton and Porter all flew up the ranks during his absence. They also flew up the ranks because they had large schools. All of is high up flew up the ranks because they had large schools.

When Escobar was killed by the DEA, Leonard reappeared. Mullins was fearful as he know Leonard has to be top dog. I even heard him mention his concern which shocked me as he was so macho. Ealier, once Leonard broke Mullins leg during a sparring session (full leg cast) because Leonard thought Mullins was being ****y.

Hamilton was dissatified because Sin The stopped teaching him so he went to Sean The. Sin The heard this and hit the roof and kicked him out and sued him when he tried to continue to teach.

Porter left fot he same reason but no one cared as porter was never well thought of.

Van over was kicked out because Sin The told me there were missing GIS and he blamed Van Over. He gave Van Over a chance to pay him back but Van Over refused and Sin Kicked him out and sued him when he tried to continue .

Didn't Hamilton win his case with the help of Hiang?

[kungfujunky]

Sin The does not take orders or is directed by the Soards or anybody. This is ridiculous.

The proper way was for the teachers to contract Sin The and discuss their issue and leave the Soards and report directly to Sin The or one of his other high ups.

Sin The never says a class or teach must endure or report to a pervert thats not how it works. He is reasonable especially if a group got together and discussed it with him.

What is not acceptable is splitting altogether because of the issue.

At the end of the day Shaolin do (what ever it is) is his, he brought it here he owns it.

Sin The sued Mr Mace because that is what he does if you quit him for whatever reason he has done it twice before, the Soards didn't make him do this, he did it because that is the cardinal sin of Shaolin Do quitting Sin The and contining to teach.

Mr Mace and other cannot and should not go alone just because their teacher is a werido. The could have stayed with Sin The and gotten away from the werido. Splitting like he did was an excuse.

Sin the should have kicked the Soards out no question but he didnt as I mentioned it is his livlihood at stake and also his obligation to them and cultural reasons. That is lack of judgement not being a bad person.

These people were adults nothing forced them to go to the Soards.

LOL what a joke. This has been tried with the support of another elder master. The did what the Soards said despite trying to follow this farce of a process. Period.

He caters to the money the soards pay him. He would rather lose multiple high level students than the soards because they pay him more. That is the truth of it. Where is the integrity in that?

What about the soards learning material from YouTube and teaching that out? Why doesn't The say something about that? Probably because they share it with him that's why.

[JSE]

I'm still of the mindset there needs to be a full contact no holds barred brawl. Last man standing runs the system.

[Snipsky]

He caters to the money the soards pay him. He would rather lose multiple high level students than the soards because they pay him more. That is the truth of it. Where is the integrity in that?

What about the soards learning material from YouTube and teaching that out? Why doesn't The say something about that? Probably because they share it with him that's why.

i confuse. high level students? where? who? you're not talkin Shaolin Donuts having high level anything other than ego

[themindreader]

LOL what a joke. This has been tried with the support of another elder master. The did what the Soards said despite trying to follow this farce of a process. Period.

He caters to the money the soards pay him. He would rather lose multiple high level students than the soards because they pay him more. That is the truth of it. Where is the integrity in that?

What about the soards learning material from YouTube and teaching that out? Why doesn't The say something about that? Probably because they share it with him that's why.

Please clarify what the Soards told Sin The to do? My point was he sues whoever leaves him that continues to teach, that was what he has always done. I believe Sin The does what he wants he isnt guided by the Soards. Please be specific on which Elder Master and what was requested and I will explain what I believe is going on.

It doesnt surprise me if the soards are using youtube what did they copy?

[bodhi warrior]

Given that you seem to have a lot of inside information. What is your take on the deposition where sin the' admits making up just about everything?

[kungfujunky]

An elder master from the east was willing to take a break away student in CO under his tutelage and let him open a school.

The soards pitched a fit and The kicked said student out despite the assurances of another of The's high ranking students. The said to the 8th degree in the east that if he allowed it the Soards would quit him so he just couldn't do it....tell me how that fits with what you are saying

The Soards have never learned the hua 2 person sets from The nor anyone else in SD. They copied them from youtube. And I am sure they have done that with a bunch of other material they teach.

[Old Noob]

Aren't the Soards down only to a few loyal schools now? How can they afford to pay Sin The so much?

[kungfujunky]

I have proof they got it from youtube.

[Judge Pen]

I started training under him in 2000. I had obtained my first degree in Virginia from another teacher, quit training once that teacher died and while I was in law school, and found his eldest son was teaching close to where I lived, so I went to his class. As a result, I came under the Mullins' teaching through my 4th degree when I got burnt out and stopped training due to time constraints and nagging injuries.

I don't know all the dirty laundry in the system and what happened with Mullins before I started training with him, but I can comment on my experiences with him while I trained with him. In my opinion, he is a very talented martial artist. He doesn't ask his students to do anything that he can't do himself. He works as hard as any person I've seen in his training. He always had the utmost respect for Sin The. Before all this happened with the Soards I even heard him tell a student that was moving west to luck up a school under the Soards. When I came along, there was tension between most of the schools under Master Leonard and Master Mullins with a lot of it being Mullins' decision to stop wearing gis. I know that there was a difference of opinion between Mullins and Leonard about a lot of things, but I never heard Mullins disparage Leonard's ability as a martial artist. There was respect in that aspect of their relationship.

Having said all of that, Mullins is a human like the rest of us, and there were things I heard or saw that I didn't agree with, but it was not the stuff that you describe. Sure he has an ego, we all do to one degree or another, but it was not unreasonable. He was also very humble and complimentary of his contemporaries. He was not greedy and while he taught for a living, he did not force students to take extra classes to advance or regularly teach seminars or "festival forms" for extra money. The teaching of extra material in a seminar was rare.

As far as how he treated his students, he was an excellent teacher and always appropriate. There were several female students in his class, or the classes of his sons, and I was friends with most of them and I never saw anything inappropriate or heard of it from any student.

"themindreader" I'm not trying to debate you or discredit anything you have posted, because I was not part of the system, or a student of Master Mullins, at that time. I have a different understanding of the Van Over situation, but all I know is second-hand. Even if everything you said is true, who you describe is not the teacher I knew and trained under for over 9 years. If he was the person you describe, then he has grown as a person. Lord knows I would hate for my youthful indiscretions to follow me forever.

I honestly believe that Master Mullins is one of the best teachers in the system and I probably wouldn't have stayed as long as I did but for him and his sons teaching and martial abilities.

I wonder who "themindreader" is and what his agenda is? Anonymity is one's right on a forum I suppose, but it always makes one's opinions and motivations suspect.

[kungfujunky]

The Soards do not tell the truth about much.....

[hskwarrior]

The soards pitched a fit and The kicked said student out despite the assurances of another of The's high ranking students. The said to the 8th degree in the east that if he allowed it the Soards would quit him so he just couldn't do it....tell me how that fits with what you are saying

straight up CULT sh1t!!!!!!

[themindreader]

Didn't Hamilton win his case with the help of Hiang?

Yes i am sure he did but he didn't need the help.

[themindreader]

LOL what a joke. This has been tried with the support of another elder master. The did what the Soards said despite trying to follow this farce of a process. Period.

He caters to the money the soards pay him. He would rather lose multiple high level students than the soards because they pay him more. That is the truth of it. Where is the integrity in that?

What about the soards learning material from YouTube and teaching that out? Why doesn't The say something about that? Probably because they share it with him that's why.

Sin The wants to keep it all. He wants to keep as many teaching as possible. The only way someone is kicked out is if they leave and continue to teach as Hamiliton etc. From the court documents if that is who you are referring, MR mace was out because he stopped letting Sin Test. When you stop letting sin the collect his fee and continue to teach your are kicked out.

The soards are lame everyone in Shaolin Do knows it, the HUA two man set was taught out 20+ years ago so the Soards could have learned it then but I believe Sin the originally got if from a book.

[themindreader]

I started training under him in 2000. I had obtained my first degree in Virginia from another teacher, quit training once that teacher died and while I was in law school, and found his eldest son was teaching close to where I lived, so I went to his class. As a result, I came under the Mullins' teaching through my 4th degree when I got burnt out and stopped training due to time constraints and nagging injuries.

I don't know all the dirty laundry in the system and what happened with Mullins before I started training with him, but I can comment on my experiences with him while I trained with him. In my opinion, he is a very talented martial artist. He doesn't ask his students to do anything that he can't do himself. He works as hard as any person I've seen in his training. He always had the utmost respect for Sin The. Before all this happened with the Soards I even heard him tell a student that was moving west to luck up a school under the Soards. When I came along, there was tension between most of the schools under Master Leonard and Master Mullins with a lot of it being Mullins' decision to stop wearing gis. I know that there was a difference of opinion between Mullins and Leonard about a lot of things, but I never heard Mullins disparage Leonard's ability as a martial artist. There was respect in that aspect of their relationship.

Having said all of that, Mullins is a human like the rest of us, and there were things I heard or saw that I didn't agree with, but it was not the stuff that you describe. Sure he has an ego, we all do to one degree or another, but it was not unreasonable. He was also very humble and complimentary of his contemporaries. He was not greedy and while he taught for a living, he did not force students to take extra classes to advance or regularly teach seminars or "festival forms" for extra money. The teaching of extra material in a seminar was rare.

As far as how he treated his students, he was an excellent teacher and always appropriate. There were several female students in his class, or the classes of his sons, and I was friends with most of them and I never saw anything inappropriate or heard of it from any student.

"themindreader" I'm not trying to debate you or discredit anything you have posted, because I was not part of the system, or a student of Master Mullins, at that time. I have a different understanding of the Van Over situation, but all I know is second-hand. Even if everything you said is true, who you describe is not the teacher I knew and trained under for over 9 years. If he was the person you describe, then he has grown as a person. Lord knows I would hate for my youthful indiscretions to follow me forever.

I honestly believe that Master Mullins is one of the best teachers in the system and I probably wouldn't have stayed as long as I did but for him and his sons teaching and martial abilities.

I wonder who "themindreader" is and what his agenda is? Anonymity is one's right on a forum I suppose, but it always makes one's opinions and motivations suspect.

I wouldn't let my wife or daughter alone with Mullins that is all I can say. Mullins is very likable but so was Ted Bundy. My point is that he is leaving for ego and greed and not because he finds what the Soards did unethical.

I have no agenda except that I was appauled when someone said Mullins saw the light and found the soards and sin the unethical and couldnt be associated that was unbelieveable.

What Mullins did in KY before we left was probably a lot worse than what the Soards have done plain and simple.

I am a high ranking ex shaolin teacher that has know these folks for 28 years. I was a student of most of all of the people we've been discussing and trained with Sin The for years. I understand their motivations.

The folks leaving Sin The are fooling themselves they would be better off completely away from Mullins.

[JSE]

As the one who stated he saw the light "so to speak" let me say this

First and foremost our school is completely independent of both The and Mullins. As soon as the scandal started, my instructor broke away. Much like Judge Pen, I can only speak from my personal experiences with him, and offered my opinions based on that experience. You obviously have much more history with the organization and were privy to much more info than us noobs. Its amazing how much gets swept under the rug with SD. While I am not totally blind to how things are, I have not personally witnessed any of this first hand.

My point in the previous post was the latest accusations, from my understanding of what is being accused, against the Soards was the last straw because of the magnitude. Kind of an honor among thieves if you will. Some things can be overlooked, some not so much. I will not disclose the details, as I cannot validate any of it, but I am sure it will be public soon enough. Was there ego and money involved in the decision? I have no doubt. But I also stand by my statement that they will be better off independent of SD. Simply because I believe this will be an opportunity for growth for them. Now whether or not they chose to do so, we shall see, but I wish the best for them, as I would anyone else.

[kungfujunky]

Sin The wants to keep it all. He wants to keep as many teaching as possible. The only way someone is kicked out is if they leave and continue to teach as Hamiliton etc. From the court documents if that is who you are referring, MR mace was out because he stopped letting Sin Test. When you stop letting sin the collect his fee and continue to teach your are kicked out.


Not referring to Mace.

This situation flies in the face of what you are saying as Sin himself stated what I previously said.

David and Sharon wont like this and if I approve they will leave me and I cant have that.

[Snipsky]

David and Sharon wont like this and if I approve they will leave me and I cant have that.

is this because you don't want to lose that money? if not, why can't you have that???????:confused:

[Judge Pen]

I wouldn't let my wife or daughter alone with Mullins that is all I can say. Mullins is very likable but so was Ted Bundy. My point is that he is leaving for ego and greed and not because he finds what the Soards did unethical.

I have no agenda except that I was appauled when someone said Mullins saw the light and found the soards and sin the unethical and couldnt be associated that was unbelieveable.

What Mullins did in KY before we left was probably a lot worse than what the Soards have done plain and simple.

I am a high ranking ex shaolin teacher that has know these folks for 28 years. I was a student of most of all of the people we've been discussing and trained with Sin The for years. I understand their motivations.

The folks leaving Sin The are fooling themselves they would be better off completely away from Mullins.

Like I said, your experience with him, in the distant past, was different than mine from 2000 to 2009. During that time, I was one of his highest ranking students, and close friends with his oldest son (who is one of the best people I've ever met btw) and I never experienced anything that you describe. Maybe it was that way in the past, I can't say as I wasn't there, but he is not the same person you describe now. People can learn from their mistakes; and be humbled by them too.

I think it is unfair to judge his motivations for leaving based on what you knew of the past, and not based on where he is now. And I think it is unfair to compare a teacher who plead to a crime to one who was not prosecuted or convicted of one.

[Judge Pen]

When the first Soard sex scandal happened, there were several teachers under the Soards that left. Following their decision to leave, there were reports that they were contacted by Sin The and told they were kicked out of the system at the request of David Soard. (I think a copy of one of the letters was even posted here on the forum). As I understand it, Masters Grooms and Mullins then approached Sin The and those schools were allowed to remain in the system under Mullins and Grooms. Jake "Mace" was one of those teachers, but he wanted to go out on his own. All this was happening about the time I was stopping my training, but one could easily go back to this thread, circa 2009, and read that information as it was developing.

Does anyone else have a similar, or different, recollection of these events?

[themindreader]

When the first Soard sex scandal happened, there were several teachers under the Soards that left. Following their decision to leave, there were reports that they were contacted by Sin The and told they were kicked out of the system at the request of David Soard. (I think a copy of one of the letters was even posted here on the forum). As I understand it, Masters Grooms and Mullins then approached Sin The and those schools were allowed to remain in the system under Mullins and Grooms. Jake "Mace" was one of those teachers, but he wanted to go out on his own. All this was happening about the time I was stopping my training, but one could easily go back to this thread, circa 2009, and read that information as it was developing.

Does anyone else have a similar, or different, recollection of these events?

I don't believe they were kicked out because the Soards requested it, they would be kicked out because they left shaolin do and continued to teach preventing Sin The from collecting fees.

[themindreader]

Like I said, your experience with him, in the distant past, was different than mine from 2000 to 2009. During that time, I was one of his highest ranking students, and close friends with his oldest son (who is one of the best people I've ever met btw) and I never experienced anything that you describe. Maybe it was that way in the past, I can't say as I wasn't there, but he is not the same person you describe now. People can learn from their mistakes; and be humbled by them too.

I think it is unfair to judge his motivations for leaving based on what you knew of the past, and not based on where he is now. And I think it is unfair to compare a teacher who plead to a crime to one who was not prosecuted or convicted of one.

There should not be much difference between what the Soards did and what Mullins did years ago. If you believe that he has changed then you should also be agreeing to give the Soards another chance too. I think that would be bad but it follows your logic.

Do you know what happened in KY? It sounds like you many not understand. You are confusing the likability of Mullins with the potential havic his personality can cause. I've talked with him years after the fact and find him charming and likable but once you see what a person has done, you don't ignore what they can do.

[shen ku]

Share your info, I know we would all like to know

[kungfujunky]

I don't believe they were kicked out because the Soards requested it, they would be kicked out because they left shaolin do and continued to teach preventing Sin The from collecting fees.

Not true. Again you make assumptions when others who were there know the facts. All the breakaway schools tried to stay with The but he wouldn't have it cause it ****ed off the soards.

It happened nearly exactly like JP states.

[Judge Pen]

There should not be much difference between what the Soards did and what Mullins did years ago. If you believe that he has changed then you should also be agreeing to give the Soards another chance too. I think that would be bad but it follows your logic.

Do you know what happened in KY? It sounds like you many not understand. You are confusing the likability of Mullins with the potential havic his personality can cause. I've talked with him years after the fact and find him charming and likable but once you see what a person has done, you don't ignore what they can do.

The problem here is that you are insinuating much, without sharing any information to back it up. If we are ignorant and don't understand, then enlighten us. My information about Mullins comes from my own experiences and what I know first hand. If you know something more, then tell it. Oh, and tell us who you are too. If you speak the truth, then revealing your identity can't hurt either.

[Judge Pen]

And since your new to the forum, and we have not been properly introduced, my name is Ben Mullins (no familial relation to Garry Mullins or his sons). I started training in 1989 under Vernard Whitaker from Whitesburg KY (who taught in Pound VA). He died in 1993 in a helicopter accident. I received my 1st degree under him and my 2nd, 3rd and 4th under Mullins.

[themindreader]

The problem here is that you are insinuating much, without sharing any information to back it up. If we are ignorant and don't understand, then enlighten us. My information about Mullins comes from my own experiences and what I know first hand. If you know something more, then tell it. Oh, and tell us who you are too. If you speak the truth, then revealing your identity can't hurt either.

What I am insinuating is also known first hand. I know Mullins first hand and was there when his controvery occurred as were many others that knew him prior to his move from KY. It wasn't good

Just because he was always nice and you were his student and he didn't create another contorvery, doesnt mean what I am insinuating is not true; everyone in KY that knew him at the time knows what I am insinating.

Essentially Mullins did a similar thing that the Soards did, that is why he had to leave KY. The only difference was it ended up becoming consentual and not with his wife. The area that was even worse was how he treated his children at the time by essentially ignoring them.

I do not know why my identity is important as why you are wanting to know it.

[Judge Pen]

I don't trust anonymous sources that's all. It's too easy to hide behind a keyboard and a computer and be the know everything guy without anyone being able to judge your credibility or have any accountability for what you are saying.

And you will notice that I did not discredit anything you say. I wasn't there. But there's a big difference between marital infidelity and sexual assault, and I still think your comparisons to Soard and Ted Bundy are reckless even if everything you say is true and he had an affair with a student. Isn't that what you are beating around the bush and not specifically saying?

And the fact he hasn't created another controversy is specifically relevant to this conversation. A mistake is one thing, but to repeat it is worse. So if he has learned from his mistakes then he is now a better person because of it, then good for him. How long ago were these actions that you speak of? At least 20 years?

As for his children, and I'm assuming you are talking about his two sons, they can speak for themselves as to how they were "treated". It's not your place to speak for them.

[Alex Córdoba]

Can you imagine posting in this thread in 2023? :D

[themindreader]

My point which is not being addressed, Mullins has split from sin the due to the moral issue with sin the defending and not kicking out the soards.

How can this be true if Mullins himself has a similar controversy? What I am saying is his stated reason cannot be true?

We can debate if his controversy was as bad as the soards but the fact remains given his past he cannot be appalled by the soards or sin the.

By the way he caused divorce not his originally, had to close his class in Ky, refused to see his sons. His own family were ****ed off at how he was acting and his parents even went to see him about a a abandoniing his sons at least. His wife threatened to divorce him and since she worked for an attorney he ran back to his wife after several month because she was going to clean his clock. His wife agreed to take him back with the condition that they move to keep him away from his student. That is how Kermit the frog made it to tenn.

This is such a moral person that Mullins would go to the house of the husband of the wife be was seeing and try to intimidate him by turning in his drive way frequently until the cops started intimidating him back.

My point about Ted bundy is even seemingly nice people can not be nice, everyone that knew bundy thought he was nice and were surprised by what they found.

From the multiple posts I must have hit a nerve and doubt has been stated due to reasons like I haven't provided my identity or I knew him and he was a nice guy and hasn't had a controversy in 20 years. What happened happened and he is lying about why he split with sin the and that tells me he is still Gary Mullins the same person.

You can believe me or not I have no reason to lie. I think people are not bein objective and may still yern to shaolin do.

My take on most shaolin do "masters" is they are very egotistical tough guy wannabees that have no morality. I even remember talking with a mutual billing company that most shaolin do teachers used that mr grooms had a controversy but that was 2nd hand so I cannot vouch for its validity. It is clear shaolin do has too many shady people.
I just can't believe his nerve given the drama he himself caused.

[Judge Pen]

My point which is not being addressed, Mullins has split from sin the due to the moral issue with sin the defending and not kicking out the soards.

How can this be true if Mullins himself has a similar controversy? What I am saying is his stated reason cannot be true?

We can debate if his controversy was as bad as the soards but the fact remains given his past he cannot be appalled by the soards or sin the.

By the way he caused divorce not his originally, had to close his class in Ky, refused to see his sons. His own family were ****ed off at how he was acting and his parents even went to see him about a a abandoniing his sons at least. His wife threatened to divorce him and since she worked for an attorney he ran back to his wife after several month because she was going to clean his clock. His wife agreed to take him back with the condition that they move to keep him away from his student. That is how Kermit the frog made it to tenn.

This is such a moral person that Mullins would go to the house of the husband of the wife be was seeing and try to intimidate him by turning in his drive way frequently until the cops started intimidating him back.

My point about Ted bundy is even seemingly nice people can not be nice, everyone that knew bundy thought he was nice and were surprised by what they found.

From the multiple posts I must have hit a nerve and doubt has been stated due to reasons like I haven't provided my identity or I knew him and he was a nice guy and hasn't had a controversy in 20 years. What happened happened and he is lying about why he split with sin the and that tells me he is still Gary Mullins the same person.

You can believe me or not I have no reason to lie. I think people are not bein objective and may still yern to shaolin do.

My take on most shaolin do "masters" is they are very egotistical tough guy wannabees that have no morality. I even remember talking with a mutual billing company that most shaolin do teachers used that mr grooms had a controversy but that was 2nd hand so I cannot vouch for its validity. It is clear shaolin do has too many shady people.
I just can't believe his nerve given the drama he himself caused.

I understand the premise of your point, but I don't agree with the fundamental under-pinning's of your point that someone can't change after 20 years. If you make a mistake in the past, you can't be appalled by someone who makes a similar, but worse, mistake in the future (especially since the sexual relationship was not consensual, and seems to have occurred twice in a 4 year period of time if there's any truth to the rumors now).

An analogy might be in order. I get a DUI in 1993 and I lose my job and nearly my family as a result. I give up the bottle and stay clean for the next 20 years and my wife and family takes me back only if I decide to move away from bad influences and stay sober. Do I not have the right to be upset or disgusted with an acquaintance of mine who, in the past 4 years, has 2 DUI's that resulted in the injury of innocent people? Because of my mistake in the past, I lost the right to be upset about someone's present actions which are similar, but worse? That logic doesn't make sense to me.

And let's put the Soards into perspective; before his first prosecution, and subsequent guilty plea, many people on this forum and outside in SD have complained about how poor quality the material being taught by the Soards were and how cultish their classes were run. Add the sexual assault allegations in 2009 on top of and we can understand why people that chose to make a living teaching SD would want to distance themselves from the Soards. If this has happened again, and you are teaching SD and want to continue to do so, then why someone wants to distance themselves makes sense to me. Even if they've made similar mistakes in the past.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Is the only one thus far to do so. That I know of. Except for Knoxville Tn Group. KC

Nope. There's more.;)

Soon as I found out, I came here to find out what the hell was going on, LOL.

I stopped attending classes for almost six months after my wife had our son. I came back to find a whole new situation.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Granted, I'm reading between the lines but it seems like Asheville is saying that it would be unethical to stay associated with a man who backs the Soards while it is, apparently, still okay to misrepresent the source of your material.
Probably the exact opposite. I'd wager that they're using the more convenient excuse to act on a long building distrust in SD. But it is the right decision, whatever the reason.:)

I'm of the school that if you voluntarily join an association, you can just as voluntarily leave it if you feel that you have reason to do so--whatever that reason is.

[Shaolin Wookie]

My point which is not being addressed, Mullins has split from sin the due to the moral issue with sin the defending and not kicking out the soards.

How can this be true if Mullins himself has a similar controversy? What I am saying is his stated reason cannot be true?


.....and all the rest of this post

I've often heard this line of argumentation. The problem with "hypocrisy" based arguments (and the Right/Left political establishment uses these exclusively) is that there is no leeway for personal change or objectivity.

If some man (and this is hypothetical--not related to the case at hand or the people involved) lives twenty years of his life as a wife-abusing drug addict, but then cleans up, gets a job, and lives productively, then he is not a hypocrite if he tells some young wife-abusing drug addict that he's wasting his life, hurting people, and living an unproductive lifestyle.

Sometimes people make the right decisions for the right reasons, even though they may not have made the right decisions in the past.

Any other viewpoint assumes that we're all ****ed, morality is relative, and that everything is a shade of gray (except, of course, the presupposition that "everything" is a shade of gray, which sounds like a pretty black/white universal to me).

[Shaolin Wookie]

On an unrelated note, Mullins always seemed like a knowledgeable, respectful, polite, and capable martial artist to me when I was his student (only 3 times). In a professional sense, he lived up to his station. But I did not know the man well. I only know that what he taught me has always served me well.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyhoo.....good luck to you all. I wish you well.

[One student]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;1250410]

If some man (and this is hypothetical--not related to the case at hand or the people involved) lives twenty years of his life as a wife-abusing drug addict, but then cleans up, gets a job, and lives productively, then he is not a hypocrite if he tells some young wife-abusing drug addict that he's wasting his life, hurting people, and living an unproductive lifestyle.

/QUOTE]

All true, but in appraising the good or bad of the DECISION to leave, or stay, what kind of person the subject is, or was, has nothing to do with whether the DECISION is right or wrong. That's why the ad hominem argument is so illogical. If you were discussing whether the decision was right or wrong, who made the decision is irrelevant. If you were really discussing the merits of the person, then the decision they made is irrelevant. When did this forum become "Is Garry Mullins for real?"

[Shaolin Wookie]

All true, but in appraising the good or bad of the DECISION to leave, or stay, what kind of person the subject is, or was, has nothing to do with whether the DECISION is right or wrong. That's why the ad hominem argument is so illogical. If you were discussing whether the decision was right or wrong, who made the decision is irrelevant. If you were really discussing the merits of the person, then the decision they made is irrelevant. When did this forum become "Is Garry Mullins for real?"

I think we agree.:)

I was just addressing what seemed like a bad argument.

It seemed to run---if Person A leaves SD, and Person A has a flaw in his background of a loosely related kind to some Person C, then Person A has no moral justification to leave SD if some Grand Master T "protected" [still don't know what that means] Person C's more serious flaws from public review. After all, if GM T "protected" Person A, then how could Person A object to similar privileges granted Person C?

It's a bit like the Edward Snowden case (in a sense). He has vital information from his intelligence duties that the United States government has been violating the Bill of Rights in the name of public safety by spying domestically. He reveals these activities. He is labeled a "traitor" because he has violated his job protocols in intelligence (and he has probably been spying domestically as part of this), as well as some oaths that he swore to US intelligence agencies. He breaks his honor to preserve another kind of honor. If his oaths should protect the government in activities that violate the Bill of Rights, then those oaths are null and void, and he is not a traitor after all. After all, activities that violate the Bill of Rights ought to be illegal (but clearly are not). Revealing such violations is an act of virtue (as long as the Bill of Rights is considered virtuous--and it would be hard to state why it isn't, since a refutation would require freedom of speech, association, etc., and not to mention guns [to protect yourself from people who would want to shoot you dead to abridge the rights to free speech and to use the State's huge supply of guns to threaten those who discredit the State, etc] LOL.).

If Snowden had had a prior conviction as a peeping tom when he was a teen, it wouldn't change the fact that he did the right thing later on by revealing Big Brother Tom's activities. Also, had he made the decision to reveal state secrets in order to get fame so that he could write a bestselling memoir, he still made the correct moral decision in revealing state secrets, and a wise business move all at the same time. Had he sold that information to the Russians, so that the Russians could then tell other nations that the US was spying on their diplomats, then he still made the right decision because the US was violating its own diplomatic laws. I know most wouldn't agree with me, but most people aren't very logical. People have subjective reasons for doing what they do, but the rightness and wrongness comes down to where the abuse of liberty and the excesses of aggression lie. LOL.


Not saying they're a perfect match, but the principle seems to be the same. It doesn't matter if Snowden is a former spy, or a traitor, or whatever, and whether he broke some oaths, or intelligence protocols. He broke oaths to preserve the rights of man--to state it grandly.

For more on this kind of weirdness, see Jamie Lannister's speech to Catherine in Season 2 of Game of Thrones.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for the decision to leave the system.....

It's just a matter of valuation, and this is completely subjective.

There are reasons to stay and reasons to leave. And there are right/wrong reasons to leave only in the sense that they're weighed against SD's problem--FRAUD. Some might leave in order to perpetrate more fraudulent claims. I think there's more reasons to leave, as a point of honor (I don't like fraud).;) Fraud is a kind of violence against property. One gives something that one has no right to give (false information masked as truth) in exchange for something true (money and trust) from honest students looking for truth. Anything that lessens the force and success of the fraud seems to be a step in the "transcendentally" right direction.

As for the forms that are involved in the FRAUD--they may have fraudulent aspects, but if a punch is effective, and an evasion is successful, then they are not fraudulent. The history of a sequence of punches may be false, but true punches are those with power, simplicity, and success in landing. They are true. AS with all information, it comes down to particulars. Whatever doesn't make sense ought to be "made" to make sense through alteration, editing, and reality checks. GM The' has taught me nothing, to be honest, other than three "festival" forms that I have worked on for years. I have learned forms from people that learned forms from people that he taught. But he doesn't own what I learned from those forms, he contributed nothing to my learning process other than a sequence of punches, and I certainly discarded much of what he taught that doesn't measure up to reality. STrip away the lies, and there are punches, kicks, and throws. I strive to make them strong. I bet this is exactly what happens with those who leave for the right reasons. The Shaolin Wookie myth doesn't stop my punch from meeting the criteria of a good punch, or from me discovering something from a motion that challenges my preconceptions about self-defense or offense.

But my 2 cents aren't worth much, since I don't have to leave/stay. And my taste doesn't affect anything substantial.

I just have to find a good teacher. It's a cop-out, but also true. I'll keep the good things that I've learned, but good riddance to the rest. Life moves on.

Luckily, I found a good teacher.

[Judge Pen]

But it is the right decision, whatever the reason.:)

I agree 100%.

[shen ku]

All systems split one way or another

[hskwarrior]

All systems split one way or another

not all systems are cults like Shaolin Do.

[shen ku]

All systems are cults, on one level or another...

[Shaolin Wookie]

not all systems are cults like Shaolin Do.

Not all posters are ****s like frank


I swear I typed cu"l"ts

[hskwarrior]

Not all posters are ****s like frank


I swear I typed cu"l"ts

LMAO......that's ok, your mom likes me. and as long as i don't come from SD, your words are as worthless as the gung fu you practice

[Royal Dragon]

With over 18,000 posts, and over 2 MILLION views, this may very well be the single largest thread in all of the interweb.

[Shaolin Wookie]

With over 18,000 posts, and over 2 MILLION views, this may very well be the single largest thread in all of the interweb.

Just wait till they get the Obamacare website back up again.;)

This thread has nothing on the trainwreck that'll become in no time flat.

[MasterKiller]

With over 18,000 posts, and over 2 MILLION views, this may very well be the single largest thread in all of the interweb.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts_updsub&forum=2&thread=1290484&page=1&pc=40818

40,818 replies.
13,439,266 views.

[RJ797]

It looks like Grooms and the Atlanta schools have officially gone on their own. Sin The and Shaolin-Do are nowhere on their websites. It's my understanding that Grooms sent Sin The a letter explaining that based on the Soard's and Bill Leonard's behavior and Sin The's support of them and the revelations contained in the deposition regarding made up material that they did not desire to be affiliated any longer.

[Judge Pen]

Just saw this posted on KFM's facebook page. Good advice, but if we all followed it, this forum would probably wither and die.

[shen ku]

ture but then there would also be not martial arts, who would be fighting

[Shaolin Wookie]

It looks like Grooms and the Atlanta schools have officially gone on their own. Sin The and Shaolin-Do are nowhere on their websites. It's my understanding that Grooms sent Sin The a letter explaining that based on the Soard's and Bill Leonard's behavior and Sin The's support of them and the revelations contained in the deposition regarding made up material that they did not desire to be affiliated any longer.


I know the schools have parted from the system. I think it's a good idea.

For most students, though, I don't think any of that matters (the letter). I haven't heard of it, but I know the schools have split. Most of our classmates don't know who the Soards and Bill Leonard are. They know of Sin The', but know nothing about him (other than what he has claimed on websites and contradicted under oath). 18K posts into this thread, and I still don't know jack **** about him, and I don't care much about what he's done (or not done) for other people I'll never meet who I also know nothing about. For those who know a little about the split, most are more excited about the new opportunities to develop the school than about scrapping SD. It's not a negative thing. It's an opportunity.:cool:

Atlanta is pretty rejuvenated from what I gather--more drilling, practicality, etc., much I suppose the result of the Kuntao-Silat club there. I can't wait to get back into the action!

While studying in Atlanta, I've met many practitioners from outside arts. I've studied Indonesian and Fillipino arts, as well as studied with other amazing non-SD CMA teachers, and tied what I've learned into my practice, and learned quite a bit. These people do not blush when walking into the school, and they don't duck their heads and run to their cars in embarrassment when leaving. I don't know why there's so much politicking in SD, but good riddance to the politicking, and good luck to all of my fellow practitioners.:)

Masters Nance and Mullins were my two favorite SD masters from "outside" schools (they always felt like training brothers). I hope they remain friendly to Atlanta. Master Nance was always warm, friendly, and he even smiled when he applied a painful wrist lock or punched you in the ribs when demonstrating. His students were class acts as well. As for Master Mullins, he had lots of martial knowledge, and I enjoyed his lessons (and still practice his principles).

I suppose that some might be surprised to find SD absent from CSC sites in the future, but does the "disappearance" of GM Sin and SD from CSC websites really even matter? On how many SD sites were Grooms and the Atlanta School masters listed as practitioners before the split?:D A little reciprocity doesn't necessarily entail ill-will.

As for the fraud part, and the "made-up" **** clause, I think this shows character. The following are my thoughts, not those of my teachers.

Sometimes you have to look a BS'er in the eye, put aside decorum, and ask: "Are you ****ing kidding me?":)

[Shaolin Wookie]

To be honest, I always believed that the Atlanta schools had the courage to take a kind of stand against the BS. I won't speak for my teachers' motivations, but I'm glad that I was right.

I'm not trying to poke the bear. I'm just trying to stress the positive aspects of blazing a new trail and scrapping unnecessary baggage. I've studied in Atlanta for nearly a decade, and ten years in I still feel excited to go learn something new (and practice it until it becomes old).

[MasterKiller]

Sometimes you have to look a BS'er in the eye, put aside decorum, and ask: "Are you ****ing kidding me?":)

As opposed to, say, defiantly defending a BSer in the face of overwhelming evidence for 10 years...?

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's the funny part of internet forums. If you question GM The' for ten years, but study the art, MK assumes that you've been defending him for ten years.:rolleyes:

LOL. What a maroon.
From one of my first posts, ever:




I do Shaolin-Do right now, under a Master who I really respect, both for his skill and his teaching ability. I've struggled with the Do for a while for different reasons. Some people know this...some don't. I'm sure some don't care.

Here's the skinny of it. I don't like the advancement system--I think it's too easy for some slackers to advance. I understand the business aspect of the school, believe me I do. But it makes me wonder if it's the right place for me, as an individual. Everyone asks me why I don't advance....I say, remembering a form is not "knowing" a form. They seem kind of bewildered by my reply. That always surprises me. Some of you have my same outlook. But I'm looking for outside opinions here as well. Plenty of posters in the past 7 years have voiced this same complaint. So I'm sure it's nothing new.

I don't care what real Shaolin is. I don't care what fake Shaolin is. I picked the Do because they're the only school that teaches 8 Immortals (so you know I'm in it for a lot of the art in martial arts as well)--but it takes forever to get there, and I might benefit myself better by looking about. I'm not willing to advance myself to higher ranks b/c I feel I should be able to use every skill I've been given so far. And ****.....I don't think there are a lot of people in SD that can make that claim. Not to brag or get a big head...but some of my forms look better than people's who have been doing this for years longer. What's up with that? Am I mistaken? Let's all be honest---I'm not calling anyone out.....I just need some kind of constructive input. From what I know, 8 Immortals just builds on the basics to a more extreme level. But a lot of "disciples" come back to other lower ranking students and say....hey, can you show me that form again....I forgot part of it. My heart just tells me.....look around Daniel San......how're you going to build on basics in this environment where basics are lost....or forgotten.....

That really gets me. It makes me question the validity of the system as it's taught. The question is--do I want to make the commitment to learn the Do for some-odd years to get Drunken Boxing....and weather the BS it's going to take to get there? Has anyone else, Do or non-Do, done the same, and considered it worthwhile?

I respect and admire the friggin' hell out of my SD teacher. He's amazing....especially regarding awareness, application, fighting acumen, pressure points, etc. He can walk up to you, tap you on the arm, and make it go numb for like three minutes. It's happened to me, firsthand. So it's not all hype. And my master seems to discard anything "Out-there." But as for the Soards---they seem hokey to me. And the CSC is an offshoot of hte Soards. As for GM The'....that new website pretty much sums it up for me.....makes me think he's got something to prove to me.....

And before anyone rips me for that---I've never met the guy. Some of his students impress me. A lot don't. That gives me doubts as to his efficacy....therefore I have a responsibility to doubt, I think.

I have questions....man....lots of 'em about the system as a whole. Do I want to be a part of a chain with so much.....history...I guess I'd call it.....

People talk about GM Sin like he's their best friend....but nobody here (in ATL) who does so really has frequent contact with him (on a weekly, even monthly basis...or am I wrong?). I'm always suspicious of acquaintances like this......via someone-told-me-this, I-heard-this-from-so-and-so means. He's around 1nc every 6 months, and occasionally for a festival class. I've been guilty of it, every once and a while.........:o

Well, he's coming to ATL, and I'm gonna be there. No lie--if I'm not impressed by him, then I will not be studying with SD anymore. I'm not trying to say I could beat the man up...and the hype he has to live up to is nothing if not monumental. If he's as good as you SD vets say, then there's nothing to worry about. I'll stick with it. Otherwise, I'm off to start anew. He's already got a monumental task ahead of him, 'cuz festival classes aren't always structured well.

Well, we'll see how it goes......



I just don't know, man....

Anyhow, I made that festival class but wasn't very impressed (1st Golden Leopard, perhaps?). I talked to my teacher, thought about my goals, and I looked around. I studied several other arts, but couldn't find a better teacher. So I just stuck with my teacher---he's quite talented, and an excellent MA. I decided to forget the hype and stick with a solid MA teacher, whatever the lineage. I met GM The' four times after that. He kicked me out of my first degree black sparring test, and he was very kind to me when I injured my shoulder on my two-on-one second degree test. Very kind, I might stress. He showed concern, and I knew that he meant it. Nice guy in person. Seems to have made some poor business decisions, however. Nothing personal, except for the fraud (or the perjury, whichever fits).

[MasterKiller]

That's the funny part of internet forums. If you question GM The' for ten years, but study the art, MK assumes that you've been defending him for ten years.:rolleyes:

LOL. What a maroon.


At least KC believed in what he was taught. You say you didn't, but kept it up anyway. For TEN years, mind you.

You can try to intellectualize it anyway you want, but that makes you more of a maroon than anyone else on this board. Maybe in the history of the internet.

To put it in academic terms, it's like you always wanted to study Sacred Theology, but spent 10 years getting a PhD in Scientology just because it was close enough.

[kwaichang]

I believed and believe in what SD I did and do. I can make it work remember its not the art but the Artist. You can paint a picture that looks exactly like the mona Lisa but you are never going to be the original Master Artist.
I could make it work and could apply my mechanics I gained from my Tang Lang and Hung Jia to what I was taught. I like SD I dont like all of it though. That is all. KC

[bodhi warrior]

You know...the only external material I practice is the sd material that was allegedly made up. I love it. It's simple, it strengthens the body, and it's practical. And I'm talking about material that is only found in sd and Hiang The's school. In addition I practice taichi 64, classical bagua, hsing ie. I know that those internal forms could have been picked up from books. But I still love doing them. If only sin the would have stayed with his material instead of copying forms from vcd's, DVDs and tapes. And of course the glorified history. Things would be so different.

[Shaolin Wookie]

At least KC believed in what he was taught. You say you didn't, but kept it up anyway. For TEN years, mind you.

You can try to intellectualize it anyway you want, but that makes you more of a maroon than anyone else on this board. Maybe in the history of the internet.

To put it in academic terms, it's like you always wanted to study Sacred Theology, but spent 10 years getting a PhD in Scientology just because it was close enough.

Right, and by that same measure at least jihadists actually believe in Islam enough to die for it....
Lofl. That's a strange religious sentiment. Luckily I don't have to believe in people. I just have to test them. Punches don't land just because you believe in your teacher. So what does a distrust of a
Man I've met 4 times count for? Not much.

As for my actual teacher, I certainly don't need to defend him, lol. I just show up willing to learn from the best

And I've already learned some 8 immortals due to curriculum changes here. Mission accomplished;)

Good luck with life mk. I hope you find some piece of mind somewhere.

[MasterKiller]

And I've already learned some 8 immortals due to curriculum changes here. Mission accomplished;).
Made up or poorly copied from a book Eight Immortals, no less. Well done.

[shen ku]

everything is made up... but... who cares

[beng]

You can believe in, support and us a product without necessarily buy into the brand so to speak. JMO

[MasterKiller]

You can believe in, support and us a product without necessarily buy into the brand so to speak. JMO

Grasshopper: "Sir, I have wanted to learn 8 Immortals Kung Fu my whole life. Do you teach it?"

Ambiguously Asian Master: "Of course! I made up a form yesterday and decided to call it 8 Immortals. It's not really Kung Fu, though. But it almost is!"

Grasshopper: "Close enough! Sign me up!"

[kwaichang]

No one could make up something this bad.
http://youtu.be/sU8xVMwzxS4

[kwaichang]

How it should be performed.
http://youtu.be/kWA57Vnchhs

[themindreader]

If the rumor of the letter telling sin the he split also is true, then I think the reasons listed make the most sense thee specially sin the stating under oath he made stuff up.

From sin the's perspective he probably thinks all I do is fly in tell weird stories, collect my appearance fees, if "I kick out the soards all I am doing is not collecting my fee and not telling my stories, why are they mad at me the soards will continue to teach?"

I can't believe grooms split he was such a suck up, he used to run sin the's tourney, I thought he was a *****. He was almost a arrogant as Leonard without the fighting skills.

Mullins was also a huge suck up I can't count how many dinners he arranged for sin the to get a chance to grace his presence. He used to tell his stiludents about sin the supernatural abilities And believed it.

I wonder how they feel now about all that wasted sucking up?

[themindreader]

Why do the schools that split with the soards still remain with Mullins and or grooms?

They all should know sin the made up stuff and grooms and Mullins only learned from sin the, also why do they need anybody to be over them, haven't they learned that following after someone is the problem, they followed the soards and look what that brought them. At some point shouldn't they be grown ups and not need a higher up to mAke appearance fees off them? What value is that?


And jakemace on YouTube is as terrible a martial artist as the soards sin the should have sue based on how bad his skills hurt the shaolin do rep but again you have to have a rep first.

[Kellen Bassette]

No one could make up something this bad.
http://youtu.be/sU8xVMwzxS4

I usually can't be bothered to comment on his videos, but that is honestly the worst imitation of drunken boxing I have ever seen. :eek:

[bawang]

everything is made up... but... who cares

you can make up gold, or you can make up feces.

[Kymus]

Supposedly Jake Mace goes to China every so often to continue his training.

I'm really curious to see what material he's learned there because.... his movements aren't getting any better.

[Judge Pen]

No one could make up something this bad.
http://youtu.be/sU8xVMwzxS4

Wow, that was bad.

[kwaichang]

I personally prefer the forms and mechanics of the Wu Dang systems. KC

[bawang]

I personally prefer the forms and mechanics of the Wu Dang systems. KC

if you go to wu dang mountain and train for 1 day, it will be worth more than what you have trained at shaolin do for a lifetime. a wu dang dvd is worth 10 years of shaolin do training. wu dang book, 5 years.

[kwaichang]

In Nashville Tn there is a school where a Wu Dang Master comes into to teach for 2 months a year. I cant remember his name though. But he is of master level. KC

[Snipsky]

In Nashville Tn there is a school where a Wu Dang Master comes into to teach for 2 months a year. I cant remember his name though. But he is of master level. KC

honestly, what would you know about anything of master level when you come from a fraudulant system teacher? i question everything you ever learned.

[kwaichang]

U are a dip and an ass doesnt mean everyone is. BTW I didnt come from SD I merely trained in it. KC

[Snipsky]

Because
U are a dip and an ass doesnt mean everyone is. BTW I didnt come from SD I merely trained in it. KC

all of you should tell sin the to fuk himself and go and join jake the fake
i don't feel sorry fer nonya fake asses

[bawang]

U are a dip and an ass doesnt mean everyone is. BTW I didnt come from SD I merely trained in it. KC

you guys cling to sin thes creation because you have give up hope on the shaolin dream. you think its too late to change anything.

you are right.

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/75633_10151113842722732_1747122625_n.jpg

[kwaichang]

Hey Snipper where is your little buddy oh yeah in the pic u posted. I was wondering how long u would be before coming on here with purile remarks. and Bawang why u join'n in? arent you too busy? KC

[Judge Pen]

Yes! The trolls are back! Let's add 25 more pages of mindless bickering and personal attacks!

[OldandUsed]

Okay, for the small minded individuals (who shall remain nameless), I trust you are aware that the majority of active posters on this thread that are knowledgeable about SDF are FORMER members of the organization, right?

Yes, there are a few current SDers on here, but they seldom post. Most of us left the organization some time ago for various reasons and most of us had previous training and enjoy training in other systems now.

Anyone can make a mistake, but most of us knew how to recover from that. There are some good people in the system that have allowed themselves to be led down a slippery path. Some others have gone to SD because there was nothing else in their area.

Common sense and respect goes a long way. It is easy to snipe at someone that is not standing in front of you and behavior tells who really has honor and who does not.

[Empty_Cup]

So any new news coming from the tournament?

[shen ku]

Nope, it was a little bigger then last year. Was some good performances and some bad ones. But norhing was ever said about anything...

[OldandUsed]

Was there anyone conspicuous by their absence?

[shen ku]

Dope, the ones that are normally not there were not there. Master Nance had students there but I never saw him myself.

[shen ku]

I have beem in the system for almost 3 decades and I still train on mostly the lower (or made up) stuff. I enjoy it and feel I have benefited greatly from it. Life ia to short for me to worry over a lot of things. But I do feel that the lower material is really well put together and laid out very good for a students growth and development, where ever it came from..

[bawang]

Okay, for the small minded individuals (who shall remain nameless), I trust you are aware that the majority of active posters on this thread that are knowledgeable about SDF are FORMER members of the organization, right?

Yes, there are a few current SDers on here, but they seldom post. Most of us left the organization some time ago for various reasons and most of us had previous training and enjoy training in other systems now.

Anyone can make a mistake, but most of us knew how to recover from that. There are some good people in the system that have allowed themselves to be led down a slippery path. Some others have gone to SD because there was nothing else in their area.

Common sense and respect goes a long way. It is easy to snipe at someone that is not standing in front of you and behavior tells who really has honor and who does not.

most of u guys still train the stuff you learned at shaolin do. a dog returns to its own vomit.

[kwaichang]

A Gods Vomit is better than a mans Gold. KC

[bawang]

A Gods Vomit is better than a mans Gold. KC

sin the is still your god. your soul belongs to him.

[kwaichang]

Heres the deal , how u feel about what ever has no significance. SD while not pure CMA or pure Shaolin, is still an effective MA and has much to offer. I am not talking about any individual but the things I learned , I have used and are powerful, fluid and dynamic. I am not defending whether some one was honest or not or whether something is real or not. MMA is no different than SD it is an assymilation of many different aspects. Rip on it for a while. KC

[bawang]

I am not defending whether some one was honest or not or whether something is real or not.




you are like a woman that dreams about bbc. but when she finally get a real one it hurts her and she doesn't like it. you don't like the real shaolin, you like the fake one from david carradine tv show. sin the gave you what you wanted. a rubber bbc of the mind.

[kwaichang]

without dreams dreams cant come true.

[shen ku]

You seem to be a little overly focused there. We all really don't need to know what you are missing in your life.

[kwaichang]

Thats what I dont understand I enjoy TV as much as the next guy but why and what does the British Broadcasting Corp have to do with this. My fav is Keeping up appearances. LOL:)

[shen ku]

No way, last of the summer wine, I believe it is, is much better.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Grasshopper: "Sir, I have wanted to learn 8 Immortals Kung Fu my whole life. Do you teach it?"

Ambiguously Asian Master: "Of course! I made up a form yesterday and decided to call it 8 Immortals. It's not really Kung Fu, though. But it almost is!"

Grasshopper: "Close enough! Sign me up!"

Lol. I learned from an unambiguously American master.

I suppose the only "real" 8 immortals is........

Well, it's mostly non existent , and most that exists is dramatized gymnastics with no martial content. Sd"s is good enough for me. But perhaps you don't like it.

Your choice. That's cool.

Try some other brand.

[bawang]

Well, it's mostly non existent , and most that exists is dramatized gymnastics with no martial content. Sd"s is good enough for me. But perhaps you don't like it.

Your choice. That's cool.

Try some other brand.

that makes you a cultural thief and robber.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sin the"s worst crime was committing fraud in the seventies, and continuing it for 40 years.

Had he done that in the 20's, without the wookie, he just might have gotten into the books as a traditional shaolin master

Wha it all comes down to is actual martial content. Does sd have it? Yes, but it needs more
Drills. That's not necessarily a flaw
In the system. Just of
Practitioners

[bawang]

Sin the"s worst crime was committing fraud in the seventies, and continuing it for 40 years.

Had he done that in the 20's, without the wookie, he just might have gotten into the books as a traditional shaolin master


because 1920s Chinese are treated like cokroaches. sin thes crime is considered bad because we actually some what respect other peoples cultures.

[Shaolin Wookie]

that makes you a cultural thief and robber.

Lol. I know you're a troll, but this is funny. We're all cultural thieves. Karate is a cultural thief. The Chinese stole theirs from others as well



Of course, if we're all adopting cultural practices voluntarily, then nobody's a thief. My practice of sd, gi or no gi, stops no ****ty dude in pajamas from practicing ritualized dance.

[Shaolin Wookie]

because 1920s Chinese are treated like cokroaches. sin thes crime is considered bad because we actually some what respect other peoples cultures.

Indonesians are known to make **** up about martial arts and call it tradition. You ought to respect the bejeezus out of sin the then.

[bawang]

Lol. I know you're a troll, but this is funny. We're all cultural thieves. Karate is a cultural thief. The Chinese stole theirs from others as well



Of course, if we're all adopting cultural practices voluntarily, then nobody's a thief. My practice of sd, gi or no gi, stops no ****ty dude in pajamas from practicing ritualized dance.

china and japan exchanged culture freely. we both Asian.



Of course, if we're all adopting cultural practices voluntarily, then nobody's a thief. My practice of sd, gi or no gi, stops no ****ty dude in pajamas from practicing ritualized dance.

there is difference between dance created by famous people that last for 1000 years, and some lame sh1t made up by Indonesian college student to fool Kentucky hillbillies.

Lol. I know you're a troll, but this is funny.

shaolin do trolled your life. it trolled away your youth and vitality.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've seen questionable things in sd. But as
For
The core, it's unquestionable. It's the foundation of every martial art, ever, except modern wushu

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thank god you're not
The stereotypical Asian without command of
Subject-verb agreement bawang. Lol

[bawang]

I've seen questionable things in sd. But as
For
The core, it's unquestionable. It's the foundation of every martial art, ever, except modern wushu

modern wushu comes from cha quan. its 1000 times more traditional than shaolin do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Cool. Have a nice day, bawang.

[bawang]

Cool. Have a nice day, bawang.

I want you to cry. when you finally cry and yell in anguish and curse sin the, you will be free from his evil shadow.

[kwaichang]

Is Bawang Jim Jones? Reincarnate. He sure preaches alot. Peace to you my Brother and all yours . I would worry more about the Prez and congress than this.

[shen ku]

Bawang are you asian?? Well no wonder you are so focused on bbc..

[OldandUsed]

That is not going to happen, bawang. Myself, I left SDalmost 20 years ago and have studied other arts. One thing I found in the Asian community that seems to conflict with your earlier post about Chinese and Japanese. After what the Japanese did to the Chinese in Nanking and other places when they invaded, it would seem you would not be so willing to accept Japanese culture. Personally, I always found it surprising that SKT would adopt anything Japanese due to the deep hatred most Chinese had for anything Nippon. But who the heck am I?

[bawang]

That is not going to happen, bawang. Myself, I left SDalmost 20 years ago and have studied other arts. One thing I found in the Asian community that seems to conflict with your earlier post about Chinese and Japanese. After what the Japanese did to the Chinese in Nanking and other places when they invaded, it would seem you would not be so willing to accept Japanese culture. Personally, I always found it surprising that SKT would adopt anything Japanese due to the deep hatred most Chinese had for anything Nippon. But who the heck am I?

i was saying, karate masters didn't steal culture. they went to china and asked famous teachers to teach them.

its different from sin the getting idea to mimick a tv show to make easy money.

[OldandUsed]

As well as Americans and just about any country you can think of in the East. It should not be surprising that there would be martial arts in the US and that enterprising individuals would bring their own brand here for distribution. We do not judge where it came from. We judge how effective it is in application. If you were to open a school and used whatever terminology you wished, you would get students. Keeping them would depend on you and how effective what you taught was. We could not care less about the terms, origin, etc as long as it helped us develop and was effective. Culture thief? Fake Gung Fu? Mixing terminology? Nope, don't care.

[bawang]

As well as Americans and just about any country you can think of in the East. It should not be surprising that there would be martial arts in the US and that enterprising individuals would bring their own brand here for distribution. We do not judge where it came from. We judge how effective it is in application. If you were to open a school and used whatever terminology you wished, you would get students. Keeping them would depend on you and how effective what you taught was. We could not care less about the terms, origin, etc as long as it helped us develop and was effective. Culture thief? Fake Gung Fu? Mixing terminology? Nope, don't care.

the ONLY reason shaolin do got popular is because you hoped it actually came from shaolin temple, after seeing the david carradine tv show.

because you Kentucky hillbillies rarely see a colored man in your entire life, it matters less whether shaolin do is real kung fu or not. it just doesn't affect you that much.

[OldandUsed]

hahahahahaha!!!! I see that you have never been to Kentucky. Just about anywhere you go in this state you will find American indians of various tribes, Eastern indians, Pakistanis, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Laotians, Cubans, Mexicans, Germans, Italians, Scots, Ethiopians, Nigerians, you name it. Agriculture, Equine and academics brings people from all over the world here. We also have two of the largest military installations within the state that bring all sorts of people through the state. So, no again, Bawang, you are way off base there.

Hillbilly? Do you even know what a hillbilly is?

[kwaichang]

When did u start MA anbd do you have a reason why you seem so angry? It is no skin off your nose right. And when one speaks of Colored people we are all colored just different colors.:)

[bawang]

hahahahahaha!!!! I see that you have never been to Kentucky. Just about anywhere you go in this state you will find American indians of various tribes, Eastern indians, Pakistanis, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Laotians, Cubans, Mexicans, Germans, Italians, Scots, Ethiopians, Nigerians, you name it. Agriculture, Equine and academics brings people from all over the world here. We also have two of the largest military installations within the state that bring all sorts of people through the state. So, no again, Bawang, you are way off base there.


if you are familiar with other cultures, then i guess you just enjoy being dominated and lied to.




Hillbilly? Do you even know what a hillbilly is?

descendants of scots.
When did u start MA anbd do you have a reason why you seem so angry? It is no skin off your nose right. And when one speaks of Colored people we are all colored just different colors.:)

im not angy. i feel sorrow for you. every boy felt wonder and awe the first time he saw a kung fu movie. but sin the had robbed you of your chance to fulfill your dream.

[Empty_Cup]

bawang thinks if he says "colored" and "race" enough times it will prove something.

Silly baawang

[OldandUsed]

No, Bawang, you have that wrong...again. You calling me a hillbilly is like me calling you a gook. It is an insult and you really need to research a little, big boy.

[bawang]

No, Bawang, you have that wrong...again. You calling me a hillbilly is like me calling you a gook. It is an insult and you really need to research a little, big boy.

if you think hillbilly is a grave insult, you must be a hillbilly.


bawang thinks if he says "colored" and "race" enough times it will prove something.

Silly baawang

sin the figured out that if he can pretend to be a wise kung fu master, he can get respect at a time where he would otherwise be treated like bacteria.

sin the is my Asian brother and i understand he needs to make a living. but i feel sorry for you, his dog. you are weak.

[OldandUsed]

Actually, I am Cherokee/German/Irish and live in the city of Louisville. I also learned long ago the meaning of honor and traditiional respect. Apparently you did not. Following your logic and reviewing your comments, I suspect you are not a real Kung Fu man and certainly are no warrior, but are a keyboard fighter and hollow. You can play your silly little games and spoute your sewer mouth, but you are nobody and nothing. Certainly not worthy of any more of my time.

[bawang]

I also learned long ago the meaning of honor and traditiional respect.


Culture thief? Fake Gung Fu? Mixing terminology? Nope, don't care.

lots of honer u got der

I suspect you are not a real Kung Fu man and certainly are no warrior, but are a keyboard fighter and hollow. You can play your silly little games and spoute your sewer mouth, but you are nobody and nothing. Certainly not worthy of any more of my time.

i crack open your mask and reveal your nakedness.

Actually, I am Cherokee/German/Irish and live in the city of Louisville.
there are no cities in Kentucky. Kentucky is a wasteland habited by roving bands of techno barbarians, who struggle to find food and tiberium crystals. the only exception is kernel sanders. he is the only good man to come out of the desolate forsaken plains of Kentucky.

[shen ku]

Ok based on that now we all know that you no mothing of kentucky, or anything for that matter.

[kwaichang]

I appreciate your Pity Bawang, but it is unwarranted. I enjoyed what I learned and continue to practice. The Fundamentals are good and I have a working knowledge of the applications and mechanics. Thanks anyway though. :)

[bawang]

I appreciate your Pity Bawang, but it is unwarranted. I enjoyed what I learned and continue to practice. The Fundamentals are good and I have a working knowledge of the applications and mechanics. Thanks anyway though. :)

you are welcome, my son. I know it must be so tough for your people, struggling day after day to salvage the precious crystals. im sure one day your people will finally unlock its secrets, and rebuild civilization. perhaps you will find a female to capture and mate today, to help repopulate the radioactive wastelands of Kentucky. may kernel sanders watch over you, always. always.

[kwaichang]

Kernel is as popcorn, Colonel is of KFC. :) also i am not in Ky and i dont use KY LOL

[Snipsky]

I suspect you are not a real Kung Fu man

i bet he has more true kung fu than you nor sin the could ever produce.

[Snipsky]

The Fundamentals are good and I have a working knowledge of the applications and mechanics.

the blind leading the blind that is what it is. what it will always be.

[kwaichang]

What is a True Kung fu Man? does anyone really know?

[kwaichang]

I am currently teaching Bong Bu Chien to a member on this forum I welcome him to step forward and tell you if what I am teaching is Kung fu or not. KC

[Kellen Bassette]

you are welcome, my son. I know it must be so tough for your people, struggling day after day to salvage the precious crystals. im sure one day your people will finally unlock its secrets, and rebuild civilization. perhaps you will find a female to capture and mate today, to help repopulate the radioactive wastelands of Kentucky. may kernel sanders watch over you, always. always.

Well this thread has taken a surprising turn for the better...

[JSE]

I am currently teaching Bong Bu Chien to a member on this forum I welcome him to step forward and tell you if what I am teaching is Kung fu or not. KC

It is indeed. I have wanted to mention it before but did not out of respect, but since you opened the door.... LOL

When KC states he is not from SD, merely trained it, take that to heart.

My journey started in isshin-ryu, then TKD, then SD kung fu, and sprinkle in a little BJJ. My thought process is this, I will take what works for me, my body type, and motivations from each of these styles and use them. When I started SD, I didn't know who SKT was. That was not my reason for starting. I wasn't concerned with lineage. Then after a bit I started hearing all of the "stories". I had my doubts but I chalked a lot of it up to "master worship". Masters and Grand Masters can always do the most amazing things....in their students eyes/minds. I'm ok with that. Fast forward to all of the BS starting, my master split his school from SD. Curriculum changed and focus of material changed. Application of the material taught became part of testing, where before, under the thumb of SD, you performed your material and sparred. That was it. It all boiled down to, I wanted to learn how to fight. I am not, nor will ever be a forms person. I don't care if Bob Whothefukever. made it up. If my instructor can take it, and teach it to me in a way that is effective, I'm good with that. If he can break it down and give me valid applications for the movements, and not all of the flashy 14 movement applications, I am good with that. If he can instill in me that knowledge to come up with my own effective applications out of it, I am good with that. If I can test my skills against practitioners of other styles and hold my own (which I have done and try to do as often as I can), then I am good with that. KC can do that. My Master can do that. That's really all I need. Not lineage.

3 yrs Isshin-Ryu
3 yrs TKD
6 yrs SD
Very little BJJ
I am willing to cross hands any time. Friendly matches of course.

[bawang]

I don't care if Bob Whothefukever. made it up.

spoken like a true karate hillbilly.

[Judge Pen]

there are no cities in Kentucky. Kentucky is a wasteland habited by roving bands of techno barbarians, who struggle to find food and tiberium crystals. the only exception is kernel sanders. he is the only good man to come out of the desolate forsaken plains of Kentucky.

Now that's funny.

[Snipsky]

Originally Posted by JSE View Post
I don't care if Bob Whothefukever. made it up.

that really does sound hilly billy.....jimbob

[Empty_Cup]

Baabaawang has spent a bit too much time in his mom's basement playing Tiberian Sun...

Silly baa baa wang

[kwaichang]

Thanks , but I dont think they will believe you as they are afraid to admit that someone in SD or used to be can do Real Kung fu. I am pleased you didnt cut me too bad. So I will see ya Sat I hope and we will continue.
As far as Bawang , I guess he is BaWONG . Wrong LOL. Sorry man couldnt help it. My kung fu is somewhat different as I have said I have trained a while and my mechanics I feel are more Chinese if you want to say that than most In SD. But I still enjoy all that I have learned, Its about learning not style or ego.

[JSE]

No problem at all. I figured out a long time ago the simple minded simply resort to name calling and sterotyping, then are the first ***** and whine if the same is directed at them. I will never disrespect another mans martial arts until i have experienced it first hand. All of this e- sparring is just to pass time anyway. I am happy with my training. I know i can use it, and last time i checked, Bawang and Snipsky's approval was not on my list of life goals.

[Snipsky]

but everyone from the top to the bottom sucks in SD.......EVERYONE

[JSE]

but everyone from the top to the bottom sucks in SD.......EVERYONE

Oh Wow! Thanks so much for clearing that up for me. You win the Intarwebz!!!!

[kwaichang]

Man you are such a Troll, do you really group all SD people like that. You prob had your butt handed to you by a SD green belt and have flt bad ever since. Let it go man . Let it go!

[OldandUsed]

While it is acknowledged that this thread in this forum relates to SD as a purported system of Kung Fu, I have a question for those that studied directly under SKT or HKT.

Have you ever heard either of them refer to SD as Kung Fu? From when I first started with them in 1970 and by the time I left in 1998, I never heard them refer to SD as anything but Karate. Whether spoken word or in the printed handouts, Karate.

[rett]

When did u start MA anbd do you have a reason why you seem so angry? It is no skin off your nose right. And when one speaks of Colored people we are all colored just different colors.:)

"Everyone's colored, otherwise you couldn't see them."

Don van Vliet.

[kwaichang]

I have heard him refer to SD as Karate and Kung fu . He seems to refer to Karate as the old meaning of China Hand Kara Te later came to be known as Empty Hand. So perhaps he doesnt care as more people at that time and to today think of Karate or Judo when they think of MA in America.

[Old Noob]

While it is acknowledged that this thread in this forum relates to SD as a purported system of Kung Fu, I have a question for those that studied directly under SKT or HKT.

Have you ever heard either of them refer to SD as Kung Fu? From when I first started with them in 1970 and by the time I left in 1998, I never heard them refer to SD as anything but Karate. Whether spoken word or in the printed handouts, Karate.

Doesn't really matter what he calls it. I've only seen the man twice and he routinely tells stories about the monks' training at the temples and, since he's referring to the Shaolin temples and not the Japanese-Karate-Monks' temples, he's still a fraud whether he calls it Karate or Kung Fu.

I'm not trying to bash - I still train in the style - but I don't want to try to defend GMT's behaviors as honest; they're not. He's a straight-up liar; either to his students or to a court.

[Old Noob]

No one could make up something this bad.
http://youtu.be/sU8xVMwzxS4

Truly horrible. Who the hell spinning back sweeps a guy who's already laying flat on his back....among other things?

[beng]

I do not think I have heard him use the term kung fu. Usually just Shaolin. I get the impression that Chinese who do not study martial arts just refer to all CMA as Shaolin. Sort of like your mom calling your Xbox a Nintendo. I have also heard him use the term form in place of posture, technic, or movement. In would not make much sense for a Chinese speaker to say kung fu obviously.

[pazman]

In would not make much sense for a Chinese speaker to say kung fu obviously.

Tell us more about what Chinese speakers would do in your imagination.

[Snipsky]

Man you are such a Troll, do you really group all SD people like that. You prob had your butt handed to you by a SD green belt and have flt bad ever since. Let it go man . Let it go!

i could be dying after losing both legs and one arm and i would still defeat any fake ass SD wannabe kung fu but got kung fooled by an indonesian master of foolery.

you guys are soooooo dumb you believed that the hairy circus attraction in your lineage was real kung fu master.

you fools are brainwashed because any real level headed person would abandon ship when they discover they were lied to, robbed of monies, and even subjected themselves to sexual harrassment and abuse.

me, i'd rather learn from the Bawang than the LIAR known as SIN THE

http://www.shaolin-do.com/images/sukong.jpg

[Snipsky]

Shaolin-Do teaches you more material.

Shaolin-Do has more material to learn before reaching black belt than most schools teach in their entire curriculum.

yup because the founder is a dang thief and a liar. anyone would double their material when you steal stuff from books and videos.


Furthermore, the material taught up to the black belt level represents only 10% of Shaolin-Do’s vast body of knowledge.

dang thieves i tell ya

[JSE]

It's funny. Most of the SD representation on here acknowledge the material is stolen or made up. Most also agree that the lineage is garbage. What is the point in continuing to beat that dead horse?

If you feel the need to "convert" people to your way of thinking, most already do in that regard. However, if those people (split from Shaolin Do) attempt to make the best of the situation, then I commend that.

Admitting there is a problem is the first of 12 steps.

So to sum it up. I never drank the kool aid. I never believed any of the legends regarding Sin The. I knew from day one there was no hairy monk that learned the entirety of Shaolin's material. Scandal started, school split. All involved acknowledged material was made up and stolen. Curriculum changed accordingly. Regardless of that, what we work on is effective as a martial art, whatever the name. I fail to see the issue with that.

[kwaichang]

O/N u asked if any one had heard him refer to SD as Kung fu I answered I am not defending anyone. I like the SD system I like the forms stolen or not. and as you say JSE Snipper likes to beat a dead horse off. any way power is power. and some like it some dont. The priests who stand on the corner and say look at me look at me should go into their closet to pray. Otherwise it is just the Ego and them selves trying to say "see how great I am i would never do that"

[Snipsky]

All involved acknowledged material was made up and stolen.

NO honor amongst thieves. Yet not one of you spoke up and put sin the on the spot and then leave for lying and taking your monies. how nice

[Snipsky]

and KC fantasy boy.......stop watching the tv show Kung Fu and trying to emulate what you see. you too are so fake even with you dumb wannabe wittiness.....

Love, SNIPPER......

[OldandUsed]

Just wanted to put it out there that I am in no way defending SKT or what he has done.

[bawang]

Just wanted to put it out there that I am in no way defending SKT or what he has done.

lots of shaolin do people have called sin the a fraud and acknowledged shaolin do as made up. BUT they say they still train shaolin do.

acknowledging sin the for teaching fake shaolin is a good chance to start over and learn the real one. but NONE of you guys have done it. that's what saddens me.

[Snipsky]

Just wanted to put it out there that I am in no way defending SKT or what he has done.

i can appreciate that

[Snipsky]

q: Do all students of shaolin, worldwide, consider grandmaster sin their master?
A: Definitely not! First, you should realize that many schools using the word shaolin, bear no direct relationship to the actual shaolin temples in china. Often the name shaolin is added to any chinese art in order to borrow its incredible reputation.


rotflmffao

[Snipsky]

Shaolin-Do students are indeed fortunate to have a lineage that was at the temple right up to its destruction, so we now have the final version of the Shaolin teachings.

More mind control bullsheet. so no one but Shaolin Do in the whole world has direct connections or links to the Shaolin temple? FUKKING LIARS

[JSE]

acknowledging sin the for teaching fake shaolin is a good chance to start over and learn the real one. but NONE of you guys have done it. that's what saddens me.


Agreed, but the only way some of us could do that would be to learn from books or videos.... and we see how well that turns out. LOL My instructor has talked about reaching out and having others come in and teach seminars and such. Even what KC is currently teaching (traditional Tang Lang) was not allowed before. Things are more open now.

Anyone want to travel and come in and teach? :-D

[bawang]

Agreed, but the only way some of us could do that would be to learn from books or videos.... and we see how well that turns out.

its better to do real shaolin badly than do fake shaolin well.

[kwaichang]

SD is not the customary "REAL SHAOLIN" but I enjoy it and whether some one likes it or not I dont care I also enjoy Shoto kan and the Tang Lang and Hung systems I did before. My main thing is I like it. as Bruce Lee said , if it helps you in a fight then its good.

[kwaichang]

Snipper what i said was from the Bible not Kung Fu the TV show. basically it is like saying those w/o sin should cast the 1st stone. who among us is w/o flaw? thats from Kung fu by Master Po LOL

[Snipsky]

Q: Why do Shaolin-Do students wear seemingly "Japanese" uniforms to practice Chinese Kung Fu?
A: Actually the "Gi" uniform is much closer to the garments the Shaolin monks wore than any other uniform commercially available. (BULLSHEET) What is now called a "traditional kung fu uniform" has only recently become popular for martial arts (MORE BULLSHEET) and was mostly worn by normal, non-martial arts people in China. I have several pictures of ancient statues of Shaolin monks taken when I visited the Shaolin temple in 1998, and they all wore a wrap-around style "Gi". In fact, this uniform is similar to a style of garments worn by peasants and farmers (and monks) during the Tang Dynasty in China (the golden age of martial art development at the temple). You will not find the frog-button style "kung fu" uniforms that we have become used to seeing in martial arts movies.

[Snipsky]

btw
Snipper what i said was from the Bible not Kung Fu the TV show. basically it is like saying those w/o sin should cast the 1st stone. who among us is w/o flaw? thats from Kung fu by Master Po LOL

the bible is full of it too! just like SD Garbage.....

Snipper Snipskinsky to you potato head!

[bawang]

SD is not the customary "REAL SHAOLIN" but I enjoy it and whether some one likes it or not I dont care I also enjoy Shoto kan and the Tang Lang and Hung systems I did before. My main thing is I like it. as Bruce Lee said , if it helps you in a fight then its good.

do you understand that you are grateful to sin the for scamming you?

[Old Noob]

lots of shaolin do people have called sin the a fraud and acknowledged shaolin do as made up. BUT they say they still train shaolin do.

acknowledging sin the for teaching fake shaolin is a good chance to start over and learn the real one. but NONE of you guys have done it. that's what saddens me.

Bawang, I can't totally disagree with this point because, if I was doing a form that was lifted from another lineage, there's a legitimate argument that one who wanted to truly learn that form should seek out the originator. Having said that, I've elected to stay at my current rank well beyond when they would have promoted me. At my current rank, almost all of the material is the made-up stuff and not the stolen stuff. Ironically, I couldn't get that stuff anywhere else (precisely because it was either made up or taught to Sin and Hang in Indonesia) and, like many on this thread who have left SD, I find that material very useful whether it's Kung Fu, Kun Tao, or Crazy Old Man Just Made This Up Fu.

[Snipsky]

do you understand that you are grateful to sin the for scamming you?

the brainwashed NEVER know they've been brainwashed

[Old Noob]

Just wanted to put it out there that I am in no way defending SKT or what he has done.

I misunderstood you then. I apologize.

[Snipsky]

drop the shaolin name, keep the made up **** and throw out all of the stolen stuff. what you have left is SIN THE......

[bawang]

I find that material very useful whether it's Kung Fu, Kun Tao, or Crazy Old Man Just Made This Up Fu.

when you practice sin thes material, you spread and promote his legacy. shaolin do is a 500 page book with random letters.

there is dfference between fantasizing about what is possible, and what is impossible. the shaolin dream is more sweet when it is possible. for you, you have decided it is impossible forever. this is sin thes final victory over you.