Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[OldandUsed]

@Old Noob - That's fine, we're cool.

[Jimbo]

if I was doing a form that was lifted from another lineage, there's a legitimate argument that one who wanted to truly learn that form should seek out the originator. Having said that, I've elected to stay at my current rank well beyond when they would have promoted me. At my current rank, almost all of the material is the made-up stuff and not the stolen stuff. Ironically, I couldn't get that stuff anywhere else (precisely because it was either made up or taught to Sin and Hang in Indonesia) and, like many on this thread who have left SD, I find that material very useful whether it's Kung Fu, Kun Tao, or Crazy Old Man Just Made This Up Fu.

In the end, every MAist makes the ultimate choice on what constitutes their own practice.

I would point out that, regarding random forms lifted from various legitimate systems, even seeking out an actual qualified teacher of a style to learn the form is meaningless without a good working knowledge of the system itself. A form taken from a system is not the style/system; it's only a piece, a small piece. For instance, lifting a Tanglang form and, say, a CLF or other form is not practicing Tanglang or CLF, but merely an attempt (very poor attempts) at mimicking some movements from said forms.

[Old Noob]

In the end, every MAist makes the ultimate choice on what constitutes their own practice.

I would point out that, regarding random forms lifted from various legitimate systems, even seeking out an actual qualified teacher of a style to learn the form is meaningless without a good working knowledge of the system itself. A form taken from a system is not the style/system; it's only a piece, a small piece. For instance, lifting a Tanglang form and, say, a CLF or other form is not practicing Tanglang or CLF, but merely an attempt (very poor attempts) at mimicking some movements from said forms.

I can't really disagree with you either. I was never a big form collector anyway. I just know that I've faired well against other stylists incorporating what I've learned in SD. I don't really see how that is too controversial.

[kwaichang]

One mans gold is another mans shizen. If you learn a "Real" Kung fu but cant use it then it is Shizen even if its so called real, But if you learn some SD and can use it then it is gold. It is what you make it not how you define it, as far as losing the Dream real MA is just a dream any way.

[Empty_Cup]

MA's arguing is like hearing Mormons trying to convert Catholics.

[Snipsky]

I can't really disagree with you either. I was never a big form collector anyway. I just know that I've faired well against other stylists incorporating what I've learned in SD. I don't really see how that is too controversial.

the controversy is about now whether you are any good because out of all the SD video's of sparing......it's sub par

[Snipsky]

One mans gold is another mans shizen. If you learn a "Real" Kung fu but cant use it then it is Shizen even if its so called real, But if you learn some SD and can use it then it is gold. It is what you make it not how you define it, as far as losing the Dream real MA is just a dream any way.

anyway you paint it, you guys are frauds. frauds stemming from frauds only to make more frauds.......for shame.

[kwaichang]

and I assume you have never lied or misrepresented yourself EVER?

[Snipsky]

and I assume you have never lied or misrepresented yourself EVER?

Sniper is more like it. and NO....lies get discovered. like the lies spread via Shaolin Do......

[Tao Of The Fist]

lots of shaolin do people have called sin the a fraud and acknowledged shaolin do as made up. BUT they say they still train shaolin do.

acknowledging sin the for teaching fake shaolin is a good chance to start over and learn the real one. but NONE of you guys have done it. that's what saddens me.

That isn't true at all. I left right before the whole EM Soards issue, and before the school split off stuff, and way before Sin The admitting he made stuff up. I did it because I wasn't getting what I thought I was. It wasn't because my teacher was bad, because he wasn't. I wasn't because I didn't like the people. I still do, they are my martial arts family. It just wasn't what I was looking for.

I'm glad I did because I am way more comfortable with my current material. Please don't lump all SDers (former or current) together Bawang.

Do I regret training in that style? Not really, sometimes I wonder if I had done better research where I would have ended up. But it's a moot point now.

As an aside, I think that people who do have the material from the outside sources should probably get them revised by someone from that style if they can. For example, I learned Dragon Pa Kua at an EM seminar. Now that I am training with a Fu style teacher when I get to that point I will ask as many questions and get as many corrections as possible.

[kwaichang]

Stolen or not Made up or not , the question still remains, and we can all speculate, but where did the Original Material and Forms come from ? The ones that were taught from the beginning. We all have opinions but we know what they are like@. Everyone has one. Proof is in the puddin they say. There is Long fist, Hua's, The Tai chi, the Pakua , etc that all has roots in Traditional Ma from China ?

[Judge Pen]

lots of shaolin do people have called sin the a fraud and acknowledged shaolin do as made up. BUT they say they still train shaolin do.

acknowledging sin the for teaching fake shaolin is a good chance to start over and learn the real one. but NONE of you guys have done it. that's what saddens me.

Please shed more tears. Seriously, though, not everyone has an opportunity to train because of the areas they live. Personally I'd love to find a teacher in my area that focused on xingyi. Your opportunities are often limited to where you live. Not everyone can move for the sole purpose of training.

[Judge Pen]

its better to do real shaolin badly than do fake shaolin well.

I disagree. Assuming that fake shaolin can be effective in self-defense (and SD is as many have said and those who have met me outside of the forum will concede) then I'd rather be able to protect myself then do the real stuff poorly and get hurt in a fight.

It's like comparing spam to a diseased cow. I'd rather eat good spam if those were my only two choices.

[kwaichang]

Hey JP every year in Austin Tx there is the Spamorama. U can guess what that is . I have heard it is good? Not for me though. Spam soup, fried spam etc. Thats like Shaolinorama, there is so many different aspects of just one form or system like Hsing Ie who knows what is right anymore?

[bawang]

Please shed more tears. Seriously, though, not everyone has an opportunity to train because of the areas they live. Personally I'd love to find a teacher in my area that focused on xingyi. Your opportunities are often limited to where you live. Not everyone can move for the sole purpose of training.

lern fram youtoob mang


It's like comparing spam to a diseased cow. I'd rather eat good spam if those were my only two choices.

shaolin do is the diseased cow mang

[kwaichang]

Ok so let me get this straight, You think its OK to learn / steal from You Tube but not from someone who may have learned from Vids or whatever? so Stealing is Ok as long as it fits your own definition of what is right or wrong.? Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm

[bawang]

Ok so let me get this straight, You think its OK to learn / steal from You Tube but not from someone who may have learned from Vids or whatever? so Stealing is Ok as long as it fits your own definition of what is right or wrong.? Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm

depends on how badly you want the real shaolin.

[JSE]

lern fram youtoob mang

Ok so petty bickering aside, serious question time. In your opinions,what is the definitive "real shaolin" Only Song Shan? And yes I know this has been asked 1000 times, but I would like to hear your thoughts. If I do a search for "real kung fu" I find a lot of Jake Mace's vids. @_@

And that is great and all for forms, but I am not interested in that. I want application and fighting techniques/strategy. Given that criteria, what is real Shaolin? I know I can go to the gym and put in the work and eventually get it, but I believe this is where an instructor becomes necessity. Someone to watch and critique. YouTube never talks back to me no matter how much I yell at it.

[MasterKiller]

I disagree. Assuming that fake shaolin can be effective in self-defense (and SD is as many have said and those who have met me outside of the forum will concede) then I'd rather be able to protect myself then do the real stuff poorly and get hurt in a fight.

It's like comparing spam to a diseased cow. I'd rather eat good spam if those were my only two choices.

SPAM is actually pork, btw. It's short for Shoulder Pork and Ham.

[bawang]

Ok so petty bickering aside, serious question time. In your opinions,what is the definitive "real shaolin" Only Song Shan?

only song shan. FACT.


And that is great and all for forms, but I am not interested in that. I want application and fighting techniques/strategy.

now that you found out your forms were all worthless fakes, of course ur "not interested". it lessens the pain of being someones cash cow. sin the built a life of luxury and easy living from your faith, hope, dreams, and hard work.

[pazman]

Ok so let me get this straight, You think its OK to learn / steal from You Tube but not from someone who may have learned from Vids or whatever? so Stealing is Ok as long as it fits your own definition of what is right or wrong.? Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm

There's nothing wrong with learning from youtube and books if you want.

There's something incredibly wrong with learning from books, then charging a lot of money at a seminar, claiming that its "Ancient Shaolin Tai Chi" or whatever, and then asking your students not to teach it to others without permission.

Since Sin The taught this way, it is very revealing of his own opinion of the stuff he learned in Indonesia.

[kwaichang]

We know GM The learned something in Indonesia, at one point his skill level exhibited that , whiles others will argue that point. So if what he learned the way he learned it is being taught , and he added to it , then What? So i feel he wanted to make money and increase what was offered. But I do know that there are more than one Monastary listed , so does that mean that the arts studied in the other temples isnt "real" Shaolin.

[MasterKiller]

But I do know that there are more than one Monastary listed , so does that mean that the arts studied in the other temples isnt "real" Shaolin. Well, yeah. By definition, Wudang is not Shaolin, Omei is not Shaolin, etc.

That's just common sense, bro.

[Snipsky]

Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm

see, you can't even get THAT right. it's HMMMMMMMMMMMM not HUMMMMMMMMMM

[JSE]

now that you found out your forms were all worthless fakes, of course ur "not interested". it lessens the pain of being someones cash cow. sin the built a life of luxury and easy living from your faith, hope, dreams, and hard work.

I would disagree that they are worthless but that's not the point. All forms have their purpose. For me it is a cardio workout and leg/transition training.

I was not interested in forms to begin with. Never have been in any of the styles I have trained in. Can you learn to fight from them, sure. But in my opinion the best way to learn is by doing. Not mimicking it.

But that still doesn't answer my question. Application and fighting wise, what is "real Shaolin"?

[JSE]

Well, yeah. By definition, Wudang is not Shaolin, Omei is not Shaolin, etc.

That's just common sense, bro.

I should have elaborated on that. Only material CREATED there, Not material that was brought in from the outside and practiced.

[bawang]

But that still doesn't answer my question. Application and fighting wise, what is "real Shaolin"?
anything that's from song shan.

[Judge Pen]

SPAM is actually pork, btw. It's short for Shoulder Pork and Ham.

Then the analogy is only more appropriate. :cool:

[MasterKiller]

But I do know that there are more than one Monastary listed , so does that mean that the arts studied in the other temples isnt "real" Shaolin.


I should have elaborated on that. Only material CREATED there, Not material that was brought in from the outside and practiced.

LOL. Is KC posting from two different accounts??

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1385573_598152206887131_339469132_n.jpg

[kwaichang]

Nope I have only 1 acct

[Empty_Cup]

anything that's from song shan.

Only the Song Shan punches are real shaolin punches.

[bawang]

Only the Song Shan punches are real shaolin punches.

only the song shan punches are real shaolin punches.

[Shaolin Wookie]

sin the built a life of luxury and easy living from your faith, hope, dreams, and hard work.

Hey guys. Bawang is a longtime troll of
This forum, not
Just
This thread.

As for the claims that sin the sucks or
Is incompetent in ma, both are wrong. He lied about his lineage and history, or he lied under oath, which amounts to the same thing. But he's good at
Some of his martial arts. And even if his forms aren't shaolin, and have more karate or kuntao than Kung fu, some are quite phenomenal as training tools

Now, back to the inanity.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

only the song shan punches are real shaolin punches.

And the only real dollar is the one with a federal reserve stamp on its face... Lol.

[Snipsky]

The Rookie ShaolinWookie needs a cookie.:)

[bawang]

Hey guys. Bawang is a longtime troll of
This forum, not
Just
This thread.

.

u Kentucky hillbillies claiming for 30 years that shaolin do is the real shaolin is not trolling at all.

[Snipsky]

u Kentucky hillbillies claiming for 30 years that shaolin do is the real shaolin is not trolling at all.

they're all hoping for the non existent moment of us saying "that's ok, its not your fault. Go and do Shaolin Playdo some justice". Shaolin Playdo's are nothing more than Karate peons wanting to play with the realz in hopes of them too becoming realz. if i were them, i'd go and get my monies back

[Empty_Cup]

babywang claiming to know the real shaolin is a laugh.

snipstick trying to take up where hsk left off is a double laugh.

[Snipsky]

snipstick trying to take up where hsk left off is a double laugh.

I like snipstick you dipstick.

[bawang]

babywang claiming to know the real shaolin is a laugh.

snipstick trying to take up where hsk left off is a double laugh.

so its ridiculous for someone who trains shaolin kung fu to know shaolin kung fu. but u karate hillbillies are the experts.

[Snipsky]

so its funny for someone who trains shaolin kung fu to know shaolin kung fu?

Don't mind fuk them B, they still tell people the circus attraction was a gung fu master

[Snipsky]

Do you think the Kung Fu Hillbilly was a ranked member of Shaolin Playdo?

[hskwarrior]

snipstick trying to take up where hsk left off is a double laugh.

I had legitimate reason to b1tch slap all of you. I'm done with fakes all around the world. that **** makes me sick.

Please leave my name out of this fight from now on, i don't have time to play with you. I'm in the process of grieving over my father passing away from cancer and pneumonia.

have fun

[shen ku]

Very sorry for your hsk. My prayers are with you and your family.

[Snipsky]

yeah, I'm sorry to hear that HSK, keep you head up.

[hskwarrior]

Very sorry for your hsk. My prayers are with you and your family.

thank you bruh. I do appreciate that.

[hskwarrior]

yeah, I'm sorry to hear that HSK, keep you head up.

thank you too.

[Empty_Cup]

@ hsk: If you want to be left out of this, then stop posting. Simple as that.

[hskwarrior]

@ hsk: If you want to be left out of this, then stop posting. Simple as that.

not ever worth my original message.........

[Jimbo]

My condolences for your loss, hsk.

[hskwarrior]

My condolences for your loss, hsk.

thanks bro

[kwaichang]

Uncool Empty cup uncool, sorry for ur loss HSK

[hskwarrior]

Uncool Empty cup uncool, sorry for ur loss HSK

I appreciate that, thank you. no worries tho. he'll answer for that one way or another.

[JSE]

Very sorry to hear that Frank. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

[hskwarrior]

Very sorry to hear that Frank. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

appreciated.

[Empty_Cup]

Uncool Empty cup uncool, sorry for ur loss HSK

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

1) I wasn't mocking his father's passing. Merely reacting to his constant urge to post on this thread when he has nothing to add but troll posts and pics. If he really wants out, it's totally within his power (if not his mental fortitude) to do so.

2) Not saying we should do like-for-like, but do I need to remind folks about this? http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&highlight=funeral&page=1100

[hskwarrior]

1) I wasn't mocking his father's passing. Merely reacting to his constant urge to post on this thread when he has nothing to add but troll posts and pics. If he really wants out, it's totally within his power (if not his mental fortitude) to do so.

2) Not saying we should do like-for-like, but do I need to remind folks about this? http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...eral&page=1100

your words have no weight here. you're a blow hard from a fraudulent background mad at the entire world that we weren't suckas like YOU. I haven't posted here in some time now as i feel you're not worth my attention. someone brought my name up and i said not to bring it up. i haven't been on here in a bit. so leave me out of your fake ****.

busta ass

[kungfujunky]

Hsk is a punk and a hypocrite. Ec has a point.

Hsk has not shown anything that would lead me to show him any respect as he shows zero respect to just about everyone. Troll Ass *****.

[pazman]

http://www.sakura-hostel.co.jp/blog/assets_c/2012/09/kappa-thumb-250x397-6131.jpg

Not a monkey beak, but it definitely has a beak.

[bawang]

Hsk is a punk and a hypocrite. Ec has a point.

Hsk has not shown anything that would lead me to show him any respect as he shows zero respect to just about everyone. Troll Ass *****.

shaolin do shows zero respect to real shaolin.

[pazman]

shaolin do shows zero respect to real shaolin.

While Sin The wasn't cutting it as an engineering student and grabbing money from gullible white people in the 60s and 70s, men who practiced real shaolin, living in rural Henan at that time, ate bitter.

If people care more for their petty self-defense systems than for their own decency and honesty, I'm not sure they can be saved.

[Empty_Cup]

song shan is the best shan

[bawang]

song shan is the best shan

it is real.

[Empty_Cup]

Unlike the other mountains, which are not real.

[hskwarrior]

Hsk is a punk and a hypocrite. Ec has a point.

Hsk has not shown anything that would lead me to show him any respect as he shows zero respect to just about everyone. Troll Ass *****.
Reply With Quote

and YOU're SHAOLIN FAUX b1tch ass nacka\
i don't ever want your respect. don't need it you fake ass junky

[hskwarrior]

empty cups name is pretty apropos as his kung fu cup is bone dry.

[Empty_Cup]

empty cups name is pretty apropos as his kung fu cup is bone dry.

Figured it wouldn't take much for you to bring back your good ol' self. Welcome back buddy.

[hskwarrior]

Figured it wouldn't take much for you to bring back your good ol' self. Welcome back buddy.

I'm grievin and taking it out on all of you!!!! as if you were the reason he passed away! LOL

[shen ku]

I lost a family member this year to cancer, I get it. I am a full time SD guy so let me have it hsk. Let it fly I understand the need to let someone be a target.

[kwaichang]

Many stages to the Grieving Process Denial, Anger , acceptance there are others, Let HSK go at his own pace

[Old Noob]

Many stages to the Grieving Process Denial, Anger , troll SD thread on KFM forum, acceptance there are others, Let HSK go at his own pace

In his case, you missed "troll SD thread on KFM forum." So I fixed it for you.

Seriously, though, Frank, I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my father a number of years ago. It was tough and I didn't even like the SOB.

[pazman]

In his case, you missed "troll SD thread on KFM forum." So I fixed it for you.

SD people posting on a CMA forum is trolling.

[hskwarrior]

I was actually joking about targeting you guys. but yes, its a little rough seeing my father die. he was the toughest man i'd ever known and he actually laughed at Chemo which had no ill effects on him. The man was 1st cav in Vietnam and tough. but now, he's with my mom and they're dancing in the sky. THAT, i'm actually happy about.

thank you all for any kind words. I'm done with all kinds of drama now. i'll pop in here and there but i'll be busy picking up the pieces in the meantime.

regardless of what style you do, fake or real.......TRAIN HARD.

peace

[Judge Pen]

Frank,

You have my deepest condolences for your loss. All differences aside, I will keep you and your family in my heart and prayers, and I encourage all of us to offer a prayer up to whatever higher thought or being that you believe in to do the same.

[bawang]

my granma died last month. that didn't stop me from fighting spiritual battle against evil bizzaro-shaolin indonesian Kentucky hillbilly karate.

[kwaichang]

Its properly called "eviz-shaolindonesia Kenbilka Kung fu" thank u very much.

[kungfujunky]

and YOU're SHAOLIN FAUX b1tch ass nacka\
i don't ever want your respect. don't need it you fake ass junky



Lmao you are so easy to rile up. Such a child.

[hskwarrior]

Lmao you are so easy to rile up. Such a child.

Blah blah blah........it's ok. it's called passion. something you lack bumpkin

[bawang]

Blah blah blah........it's ok. it's called passion. something you lack bumpkin

their passion for shaolin has long been crushed to dust by sin the.

[hskwarrior]

their passion for shaolin has long been crushed to dust by sin the.

i understand that :D

[kwaichang]

Like our Government what started out as something good has deteriorated into a mockery of what it was and why it was established. The Material taught ,stolen aside, is good material and useful for physical fitness and coordination and self defense. But like our government what it has become is a mere shadow of what it could have been. As greedy and unethical become involved any entity can be transormed into a money hungry and down right sad situation.
This does not take away from the few who train with passion and sincerity for what ever reason. I do not condone lying or any of those type of immoral attributes as JP will attest. However, those that are liars and thiefs and downright dirty have slandered what might have been a good thing to the point of no return.
I enjoy the forms and training and will continue but only for my personal self and for fitness and calmness. :)

[Kellen Bassette]

Like our Government what started out as something good has deteriorated into a mockery of what it was and why it was established.

We could say this about most MA. :(

[bodhi warrior]

Like our Government what started out as something good has deteriorated into a mockery of what it was and why it was established. The Material taught ,stolen aside, is good material and useful for physical fitness and coordination and self defense. But like our government what it has become is a mere shadow of what it could have been. As greedy and unethical become involved any entity can be transormed into a money hungry and down right sad situation.
This does not take away from the few who train with passion and sincerity for what ever reason. I do not condone lying or any of those type of immoral attributes as JP will attest. However, those that are liars and thiefs and downright dirty have slandered what might have been a good thing to the point of no return.
I enjoy the forms and training and will continue but only for my personal self and for fitness and calmness. :)

Exactly. From '64 to '84. There just wasn't a ton of material. But lots of conditioning and sparring. And it should have stayed that way.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Like our Government what started out as something good has deteriorated into a mockery of what it was )

Wait...are you talking about the articles of
Confederation, 1777-1789, or the document that was passed in secret by a cabal of treasonous government officials, which only expanded taxing powers and the might of the central government--that old piece of toilet tissue, the constitution?

Before we talk sanctimoniously of the old founding fathers, we'd have to clear that mess up...

[shen ku]

Guess what, my credit score looked very bad yesterday, so I decided last night that I am going to let myself borrow more money!!!! You know so I can pay the bills I already have. It is such a great idea, I just borrow to pay what I have borrowed!!! Hey and guess what my bank now is telling me that my scores look great. I am so happy cause I was worried. ISN'T THAT A BUNCH OF SH!#... Our goverment is no better then a payday lender.. Thats how this once great country is ran.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Guess what, my credit score looked very bad yesterday, so I decided last night that I am going to let myself borrow more money!!!! You know so I can pay the bills I already have. It is such a great idea, I just borrow to pay what I have borrowed!!! Hey and guess what my bank now is telling me that my scores look great. I am so happy cause I was worried. ISN'T THAT A BUNCH OF SH!#... Our goverment is no better then a payday lender.. Thats how this once great country is ran.

Remember, "Always treat the grandmaster the same way you'd treat the president of the us"?
Lol. The sda might want to re-tailor that statement. I **** in obamas general direction

[shen ku]

I vote for Shaolin Wookie.... He!! I'd vote for almost anybody that could see we can't keep spending and taking care of those who won't get off their a$$. I am so sick if hearing "i can't find a job" or something about not working for this or that amount of $$. I have 4 jobs. (1) fulltime 40 hou

[shen ku]

1. 40 hours, 2. My classes about 20 hours, 3. On call 2-15 hours, 4. Part-time 4-12. So surely these people could find something ir start something...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Can't you see that by working so much that you're destroying the economy? Lol. You can't keep making so much, because every dollar you earn is a dollar that the government didn't get, you greedy Capitalist pig.

[Shaolin Wookie]

How the government can get money without you working.....well, that's as complex as the hard sciences....like phlebotomy, navel gazing, and astrology

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1372966_10151669110045877_1403819840_n.jpg?oh=b706 80fe777071d0cc72c4b507202c10&oe=527CA436

[Judge Pen]

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/v/1382188_10151669099850877_326495416_n.jpg?oh=dd26f 45d9210721886c4be41cc2b8892&oe=526A07D2

LOL. Nice. Jake Mace belongs in his own category....

[MasterKiller]

LOL. Nice. Jake Mace belongs in his own category....

Actually, he's pretty much Sin The's greatest pupil. He absorbed all of the masters lessons...

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1379301_10151669401640877_1910347244_n.jpg?oh=1b47 c9f3c8441463b437a2908d61a171&oe=526B0745

[bodhi warrior]

http://youtu.be/CISLY0kXQrk

These guys can't be doing kung fu. They're wearing gi's and belts. It looks like karate. Just kidding. Many similarities though. The layout of their system is very similar to sd from '64 to '84.

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1415583_10151669402485877_794063413_n.jpg?oh=f4479 91ea9fb732e63051cfc21b44f2e&oe=526E7A81

[Snipsky]

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1372966_10151669110045877_1403819840_n.jpg?oh=35dc d876e925f7119267df439fb49769&oe=526ECC76

[Snipsky]

http://youtu.be/CISLY0kXQrk

These guys can't be doing kung fu. They're wearing gi's and belts. It looks like karate. Just kidding. Many similarities though. The layout of their system is very similar to sd from '64 to '84.

that's karate. not kung fu.

[Snipsky]

if this forum can post pics of naked womins.......i'mma post this pic up over and over. don't take down my pictures.

https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1415583_10151669402485877_794063413_n.jpg?oh=3405b 16021dd4f9b95efa26ed463ea57&oe=5279AF41

https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1372966_10151669110045877_1403819840_n.jpg?oh=62d0 202e6606029117f87b4c7f420746&oe=527A0136
https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1415583_10151669402485877_794063413_n.jpg?oh=6ed1a 91c2e7ee951b7f553e5532a58d5&oe=527C5241

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hahahahahahahaha fakkin suckas

[Judge Pen]

that's karate. not kung fu.

So anyone have any information on the lineage of Hung I Hsiang? The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_I-Hsiang) indicates he practiced internal kung fu and shaolin qi gong.

The Hsing I two man set his students practice is basically the same as what I was taught in SD.

[Snipsky]

The Hsing I two man set his students practice is basically the same as what I was taught in SD.

its because it was stolen just like all of your other material from this lineage

[Judge Pen]

its because it was stolen just like all of your other material from this lineage

You know, I thought about that; where did SD's Hsing I come from, and could it have been taken from this source (since the documentary came out in 1983 it is certainly possible and I wouldn't rule it out). But from your off-handed comment that Hung I Hsiang, who seems to have a legitmate lineage, "was doing karate, not kung fu" I thought you might have some information about his background. But it seems more likely that you were simply making a reactionary comment without any thought, knowledge or perspective.

So do you have anything to add to the discussion of the lineage of Hung I Hsiang aside from unsupported off-hand comments?

[brucereiter]

So anyone have any information on the lineage of Hung I Hsiang? The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_I-Hsiang) indicates he practiced internal kung fu and shaolin qi gong.

The Hsing I two man set his students practice is basically the same as what I was taught in SD.

no relation even though he wears a gi etc ... i learn a version of gao bagua that comes from his brother hung i mien. tang so do is what he calls his system

[brucereiter]

You know, I thought about that; where did SD's Hsing I come from, and could it have been taken from this source (since the documentary came out in 1983 it is certainly possible and I wouldn't rule it out). But from your off-handed comment that Hung I Hsiang, who seems to have a legitmate lineage, "was doing karate, not kung fu" I thought you might have some information about his background. But it seems more likely that you were simply making a reactionary comment without any thought, knowledge or perspective.

So do you have anything to add to the discussion of the lineage of Hung I Hsiang aside from unsupported off-hand comments?

lou dexiu is one of hungs top students. i think his hsing i and any hsing i from sd have zero relation. lou is a great resource for hsing i knowledge though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Dexiu

[bodhi warrior]

I didn't mean to imply they were the same lineage as SD. I just noticed the similarities in curriculum structure. From '64 to '84 there was a small amount of external material (compared to now), weapons, and the 3 internal arts.

[Judge Pen]

Nor did I mean to imply there was any connection to SD and Hung have any connection either. I did note similarities in the two man set that his students were doing.

[beng]

Bruce,

You do not happen to know of any solid source for Xing Yi in Austin TX by chance do you? I know your well connected. Sorry off topic I know.

Thanks

Ben

[brucereiter]

Bruce,

You do not happen to know of any solid source for Xing Yi in Austin TX by chance do you? I know your well connected. Sorry off topic I know.

Thanks

Ben

i do not really know anyone in austin but these guys should at least help find something.

Name Stan Johnson
School Southern Sky Kung Fu
Address Richardson, TX (Dallas area)
E-mail Nantianwushu@aol.com
Website Southern Sky Kung Fu
Styles Master Wu Ta-Yeh: Yang Taiji ; Master Adam Hsu: Bagua, Pigua, Mizong, & Islamic Long Fist

Name Tony Scott
School Taught privately
Address Austin, Tx
Phone 512.891.1552
E-mail achaz@sbcglobal.net
Style Shen Lung Tang Shao Tao Xingyi and Bagua
Misc 25 years in the internal arts

Name Gary 'Doc' Stier, OMD
School Shen Men Tao Association
Address 500 East Sixth Street Austin, TX 78701
Phone (512) 807-6028
E-mail drstier@hotmail.com
Website http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/
Styles Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan, Sun Style Pa-Kua Chuan, Shansi Hsing-Yi Chuan, Wu-Tang Shan Chi-Kung
Lineage Second Generation Shen Men Tao Lineage Successor

[kwaichang]

Is Hsing Ie in Austin, other than SD, also just because something wasnt taught between 64 and 84 doesnt mean it wasnt there prior. KC

[beng]

Thank you Bruce

[Snipsky]

...............................................

[Judge Pen]

So do you have anything to add to the discussion of the lineage of Hung I Hsiang aside from unsupported off-hand comments?


...............................................

Didn't think so....

[Snipsky]

.................................................. .......................

[bodhi warrior]

I found this post on another thread…

Snipsky;
"it's easy to troll when you remain totally anonymous. it's usually the lowest of the low, weakest of the weak who go around trolling forums stirring up trouble. bullies. my problem is there are too many people on this forum that think they're GODS in martial arts. or gods in fighting. everyone gets beat sometime in their life.

too many of you here on this forum are ignorantly caught up by style instead of the actual person having fighting skills. all you kong foo haters hate kong foo cause yo just don't grasp the truth. the ultimate truth is regardless of what style, can YOU make sh1t work for YOU?

style wars are as stupid as who has the nicest car, biggest house, or any other superficial object.

and the other half who are just about fight fight fight.......you don't realize how fakkin limited you allow yourselves to be out of insecurity/egotism.


soooo missing the whole point."

Seems like I've heard the same arguments here many times. Could he be a closet DO'er?:eek:

Just your everyday hypocrite.

[hskwarrior]

just your everyday hypocrite.

to be fair to snipsky.........i'm still waiting to see your video....you promised that but never delivered.

i like that picture snipsky posted up of jake the fake. "YOU TOO CAN FAKE KUNG FU!!!" i couldn't stop laughing

[kwaichang]

Me too sad too sad

[Judge Pen]

to be fair to snipsky.........i'm still waiting to see your video....you promised that but never delivered.

i like that picture snipsky posted up of jake the fake. "YOU TOO CAN FAKE KUNG FU!!!" i couldn't stop laughing

I liked it too. Funny stuff.

[shen ku]

I am an SDer and I loved them, funny plan and simple

[bawang]

Me too sad too sad

sad mad glad bad.

[kwaichang]

Great start for a Haiku

[kungfujunky]

haven't heard any new news yet. I know the Soards had some stuff blow up on them but nothing has come out about it yet.

[shen ku]

Share with us?

[Leto]

Check it out, more Black Tigers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6imiaHNADk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg2Stx8ITvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G8NUfRKMjg

[bodhi warrior]

Our black tiger forms have many useful and practical self defense techniques.

[Old Man]

Wang Zhi Jiu. I have the foto of Wang Zhi Jiu and many many foto of Djie Siauw Foe. Wang Zhi Jiu have many medal from win the competition in China.

[shen ku]

Was watch a video off youtube and was wondering everyone on he was talking about the guys skill and having tai chi, pa kua, and hsing-i, but no one said anything about all his students wearing many types if GIs? Or about how his lower students forms were so "karater" like?

[bodhi warrior]

Was watch a video off youtube and was wondering everyone on he was talking about the guys skill and having tai chi, pa kua, and hsing-i, but no one said anything about all his students wearing many types if GIs? Or about how his lower students forms were so "karater" like?

This and the fact their curriculum structure (going from external to internal) is similar to how SD was back in the 60's, 70's, early 80's.

[brucereiter]

This and the fact their curriculum structure (going from external to internal) is similar to how SD was back in the 60's, 70's, early 80's.

There are many differences in what hung I siang taught in tsd. One of the main differences is sin kwang the made claims about the history of these arts that were not true. He told lies.
Look at the quality of Bagua Lou du xiu demonstrates in that documentary, he is shown I a gi getting instruction from hung I siang. Compare this to sin the or bill Leonard's representation of Bagua ...

The gi is not the problem with Shaolin do ...

[brucereiter]

Was watch a video off youtube and was wondering everyone on he was talking about the guys skill and having tai chi, pa kua, and hsing-i, but no one said anything about all his students wearing many types if GIs? Or about how his lower students forms were so "karater" like?

Sin kwang the made up stories about the gi and disguising the art from authorities by wearing a gi.
Full of apparent lies and vague history bs.

Hung I siang used a gi and japan type of rank because he likes the Japanese way of organizing a system and a gi is strong enough to train in.
No apparent lies or vague history bs.

[bodhi warrior]

There are many differences in what hung I siang taught in tsd. One of the main differences is sin kwang the made claims about the history of these arts that were not true. He told lies.
Look at the quality of Bagua Lou du xiu demonstrates in that documentary, he is shown I a gi getting instruction from hung I siang. Compare this to sin the or bill Leonard's representation of Bagua ...

The gi is not the problem with Shaolin do ...

I wasn't comparing performances. Just the curriculum structure and uniforms. I agree the quality of movement is different. The Chen style demonstrated by sin the' is hard to watch. He obviously didnt learn that from a master of that style. The bagua I'm still not sure about. He uses the lion step instead of the mud stepping technique. And when he's taped, it's always him breaking it down slowly. Ive seen tape of him doing the yang 64 form and it wasn't bad.
Chen style tai chi looks amazing when the form is done well. But in a fight in the ring it looks just like everything else.

[shen ku]

Yes I get all the history and story stuff but I was just talking about a lot if the early stuff with the gis and the apperance of the performance of lower, and some upper, material in SD. Personally I could care less put I am always interested in others thoughts.

[Lokhopkuen]

Are there any shaolin do videos of fighters and forms performances?

Thanks in advance.

[brucereiter]

Are there any shaolin do videos of fighters and forms performances?

Thanks in advance.

YouTube
Search
Sin kwang the internal examples
You can see sin the and bill leonard doing bad forms.

My YouTube channel linked below shows some of my understanding of the tai chi CHUAN and push hands I learned while in the system.
It is based on what gary grooms taught me.

Mike reid from csc marietta has a lot of videos up.

What exactly are you looking for?

[brucereiter]

Yes I get all the history and story stuff but I was just talking about a lot if the early stuff with the gis and the apperance of the performance of lower, and some upper, material in SD. Personally I could care less put I am always interested in others thoughts.

My understanding is that hung I Hsiang thought a student needed to learn "external" or Shaolin style of martial arts before learning internal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_I-Hsiang

The above link may give some insistence or at least show where to find more information.

It is a interesting parralel in the way of organizing a system.
When I saw the bbc documentry on hung I Hsiang in the mid 1990's (before I was aware of sin the's bull****) it seemed they were very similar.

[Napitenkah]

To answer that question from 12 years ago.
Anything that can be reproduced in the physical is real, in the physical.
Some things are partially real. Like someone's claims of something's origins may not be true, or reproduced as accurate. But the forms themselves can be reproduced.
If someone says a form is an ancient shaolin kung fu form, but the person actually made it up themselves, that cannot be reproduced if it is not, but the form can be.
The form will still do what someone does forms for.
I know people will say that would be fake and so it cannot do anything, but people tend to want to corner the market on authenticity.
A lot of times I see someone saying this other martial artist is fake, when what they are doing cannot be reproduced in its fullest extent in reality.
Like Japanese Samurai sword practitioners. Or ninjutsu practitioners.
They were part of societies that were destroyed by other western type societies and so anyone practicing them now, are doing dress up. The only part that is real, is the forms and techniques. So Shaolin-Do forms and techniques are just as real as another commonly accepted Kung Fu school.
Someone will say this ninja sword is fake, because the hamon was etched on and the one they have is real, and that kind should be used to train.
The sword doesn't know it is fake, and like a wooden bokken will give you the general shape and weight to train. And if you use any of them in public you could get arrested, except the bokken.
The forms do not know they are fake, because that is just in someone's head.
I found a few commonly accepted origin stories are themselves perhaps not true.
I go to the Chinese Shao-lin center, which apparently has silently severed most of its ties with Sin_the, and if Sin-the made up some of the forms, I found they still come from movements in Tai-chi and Shao-lin kung fu forms, and they can be reproduced and do the same as the forms that come from the historical Northern and southern kung fu. The center focuses on the southern style more.

[hskwarrior]

can i get some of what you're smoking?

[kungfujunky]

To answer that question from 12 years ago.
Anything that can be reproduced in the physical is real, in the physical.
Some things are partially real. Like someone's claims of something's origins may not be true, or reproduced as accurate. But the forms themselves can be reproduced.
If someone says a form is an ancient shaolin kung fu form, but the person actually made it up themselves, that cannot be reproduced if it is not, but the form can be.
The form will still do what someone does forms for.
I know people will say that would be fake and so it cannot do anything, but people tend to want to corner the market on authenticity.
A lot of times I see someone saying this other martial artist is fake, when what they are doing cannot be reproduced in its fullest extent in reality.
Like Japanese Samurai sword practitioners. Or ninjutsu practitioners.
They were part of societies that were destroyed by other western type societies and so anyone practicing them now, are doing dress up. The only part that is real, is the forms and techniques. So Shaolin-Do forms and techniques are just as real as another commonly accepted Kung Fu school.
Someone will say this ninja sword is fake, because the hamon was etched on and the one they have is real, and that kind should be used to train.
The sword doesn't know it is fake, and like a wooden bokken will give you the general shape and weight to train. And if you use any of them in public you could get arrested, except the bokken.
The forms do not know they are fake, because that is just in someone's head.
I found a few commonly accepted origin stories are themselves perhaps not true.
I go to the Chinese Shao-lin center, which apparently has silently severed most of its ties with Sin_the, and if Sin-the made up some of the forms, I found they still come from movements in Tai-chi and Shao-lin kung fu forms, and they can be reproduced and do the same as the forms that come from the historical Northern and southern kung fu. The center focuses on the southern style more.


The Soards have made up a ton of forms and passed them off for real as well.

[hskwarrior]

The sword doesn't know it is fake, and like a wooden bokken will give you the general shape and weight to train. And if you use any of them in public you could get arrested, except the bokken.

that is some very deep mystical mumbo jumbo for the hippy clans.

[Napitenkah]

What I like about all these MA forums is the warm, friendly, thoughtful, respectful, intelligent replies I can expect to receive.
The logical result of people being educated and informed from Maury Povich and Jerry springer shows.
I have been to every main Martial art forum and they are all like this.

[yeti]

What I like about all these MA forums is the warm, friendly, thoughtful, respectful, intelligent replies I can expect to receive.
The logical result of people being educated and informed from Maury Povich and Jerry springer shows.
I have been to every main Martial art forum and they are all like this.

Fuk you. Pls.

[shen ku]

Anyone on here from the "former" shaolin tao (do) school in Alt.? I would like to talk to someone from there, maybe someone that has been there for awhile

[hskwarrior]

Does anyone have any info on the Ngo Cho Kune found in Shaolin Do? It is obviously a major part of the style.

Stop that fukkin lying. Shaolin Do is fake as **** and you know it. stop praying to find a glimmer of hope in this garbage.

[brucereiter]

Anyone on here from the "former" shaolin tao (do) school in Alt.? I would like to talk to someone from there, maybe someone that has been there for awhile

What are you looking for? I left a few years ago but was round for a while.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone on here from the "former" shaolin tao (do) school in Alt.? I would like to talk to someone from there, maybe someone that has been there for awhile

Yeah. I've been there for about 10 years--the Marietta branch under ATL's ranking guy. Not as familiar with the Intown or Norcross branches.

what's up?

[bodhi warrior]

Does anyone have any info on the Ngo Cho Kune found in Shaolin Do? It is obviously a major part of the style.

What makes you think so?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone have any info on the Ngo Cho Kune found in Shaolin Do? It is obviously a major part of the style.

I'm sorry. I believe that you are mistaken. Shaolin-Do is Indonesian kuntao-karate-kungfu. I like it, but the art is what it is.

[beng]

Found one video of a double ring dagger form that looks to.be the same. Although it was performed with quit a different style. So far only similarity I see although I think this system has been brought up before.

[kwaichang]

Wow finally found it been gone a while. I dont like this new format.

[Eagle]

Ngo Cho Kun really does resemble SD. To have that kind of flavor, especially in the core material, it would appear there was some amount of influence in the Indonesian school. In the Five Ancestors Fist form I saw on YouTube, there was some mirroring of the Ippons and Street techs.

http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk

[norther practitioner]

Glad to see this sh!t show still going

[bodhi warrior]

"What is striking about this Fukien style, is the startling similarity in principles and techniques to Okinawan karate. Indeed ngo cho kun is accepted by some as the source from which several systems of modern karate have evolved. Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and Isshin ryu karate all share a common form, sanchin, which is the Okinawan adaptation of the ngo cho kun form, sam chien. In addition, the shotokan karate concept of ikken hisatsu (one-punch kill) was also probably derived from ngo cho kun. Unlike kung-fu styles that advocate defeating an opponent with a flurry of blows, ngo cho kun stresses the reliance on a few powerful techniques." from an article by Mark V Wiley and Alex Co in MARTIAL ARTS LEGENDS • September 1997

While the forms are not move for move the same you would have to Want to Not see the similarities and shared techniques to miss them.

http://youtu.be/Yla9j0AangU
This resembles our San Njie. Although without the dynamic tension. Its the only one that resembles our material. Everything else has a southern white crane feel.

[Eagle]

8012
The missing photo showing the source of some of SD's material. :eek:

[theshadowlin]

8012

Been a long ass time since I was on here (and my acct was deleted so I appear new.) I was disappointed, yet weirdly happy to see some of my least favorites are still here, bashin' away. :rolleyes: I have to say while the years passed, I don't know about my word-fu but my path has exploded... has yours? I know Judge Pen's has. I have always admired his candidness. But without naming names, about 5 of you... from both ends of the spectrum... Jesus, grow up.

I have a long story, but no time to write it as of now, and it isn't the time. One day I may even write a book on Shaolin-Do. It is a long and interesting history, and no time now to do that.

I have only 3 comments on the Events to offer at this time (and yes I am well aware of all the evidence, cases, splits, yada yada. Thanks for some of it (especially findign the Sources, wow that's awesome!!!), other parts well some is just plain common sense. [Of course he made up stuff, that's like EVERY system I have ever seen. *scratches head* I mean do you guys even read about Chinese history. Taoism and buddhism is like 99.9% non-source material.]

btw I think GM Ie pulled a fast one on GM Sin about the above photo, but you never know, he could have made it up himself. *shrugs* Maybe I'll ask sometime.

1 - It is sad to see that people still do not get 'real' and 'unreal'. I have seen 'real' gung fu experts without a clue, and masters of 'unreal' martial arts that are amazing. If Masters Mingione and Nance are not considered real because they trusted the only source of CMA in KY, and stuck with him for 30 years, uncovering deep secrets of fighting techniques, then I don't think there is a 'real'. Personally, I have converted everything to a whole new level (compounded that elixir, yo), so I feel rather objective to the whole situation as far as insiders go. I feel a bit bad for GM Sin as I could have helped him once upon a time, but he trusted the wrong people's advice and now, after all, it has hurt reputation and finances. Maybe ruined his chances to make a movie. Nothing the I ching couldn't fix.

2 - About that, I talked to Master Mullins, personally. He maintains they are friends, still, but with all that has happened, they need to move on. He slipped once and mentioned some financial arrangement, but I didn't press to see; not my biz. I do not know him, that was the first time we ever talked. So I cannot speak for his morals. [And I'm not as ****y as some that I think I'm the judge here on Earth. Beware, you aren't.] However, I will say, from a Confucian perspective, I was really saddened to see how people do not appreciate what was given positively over all those years. Maybe he does, but I feel it's just ... meh... on some level, and I pray he realizes that, but I understand with everything why not distance yourself, business, etc... Yet, to me, there is some part that always holds you should honor the past. I don't know Master Gary Grooms. But I saw long time ago he did the same cutting out to the Soards and so I expected this behavior. But... well anyhow. Gary Mullins had nothing but nice things OR true things to say about Bill Leonard. He didn't come out and admit he had betrayed him by studying with Hsiang The, but he alluded to it. He also said something true, which is BL always needs someone to be mad at; or belittle or control. I pray that changes for him one day. Maybe it has, I wouldn't know.

Speaking of which, last time I wrote about EMBL I was defending him, stating that when people claim he tries to keep people down that was malarkey. I still hold that is true. If anything BL wants people to be just like him. He is the most metal element person you will EVER meet. His health issues and his martial prowess are testaments to his sheer resolve and willpower. His spying, cajoling, rumor spreading, etc... might be abominable, but I couldn't call it a cult. Some on here have. Especially banned spinskter or whatever his name. There are some dark side controllerisms, maybe some kool aid/embellishment, but the difference is that a cult wants to keep their people suspended in disbelief with them. BL is always looking for reasons to get rid of people... so I don't think it is quite a cult. They really are into it, not like scientology which is pure control.
Besides, EVERY martial arts school prior to 1960 also operated like miniature shogunates, and had all sorts of dramas. Without wars, all they could do was bicker between associations. Just read the CMA history. Or watch portrayals of the era. Yip Man, Fearless, etc... it's part of the culture. The "Masters" under GM Sin learned it from lore, he learned from GM Ie (whose school was proably the same way vs other local dojos) and he from whoever his real teacher was. Period. Nothing new, or remarkable. How people got latched onto Shaolin-Do remains eitehr a mystery OR a clear testament to the amount of jealousy the marketing material inspired in competition (prior to the MMA wave).

3 - As for real and gratitude. How about that Master Nance? I talked to him, too. He is not leaving and he had this to say, "Why would I?" He is happy with the knowledge he has gotten. It's highly effective if studied thoroughly and not given up by some nanny who gets on this forum to complain. Like myself he has dabbled in other arts, because Shaolin is a MMA, and we like all the stuff out there. Nothing we hate. I mean, it's all different limbs of one tree. If you don't get that, you won't, especially not hanging out on a forum armchair philosophizing about 'real' and 'unreal' CMA. But what impressed me is he is gracious, he is happy, he is everything a Master should be. He is friends with GM Sin still, and he knows all this stuff. He doesn't judge Gary or Gary or Bill or anyone. He just goes on with life. Like myself, his life has benefited greatly. Where we all go from here is where we all go. Some will stay with teachers, others like Master Thad will leave and join more 'legit' lineages. I don't judge that, that's a good thing. Bury some pain, move on.

So anyhow, I don't have time or interest in flame wars. GM Sin is my lineage holder (one of many), and a friend I care for. He is as I said before, beyond all of your judgments. If you turn from his system, great. Enjoy it all, don't latch onto the past. Hear that Bill? Bad for your heart.

Just wanted to say those things for now, and thanks to GM Sin for having done something that later touched my life and gave me opportunities to go so legit I can't quit. I mean, this is all like arguments over my big toenails, I am managing a whole body now. I'll leave you with some Diamond of information to show you what all is out there to study. From the Huahujing (Scripture to covnert the barbarians).

"Fifty-Five

The holistic practices of the ancient masters integrate science, art, and personal spiritual development. Mind, body, and spirit participate in them equally. They include:
Yi Yau, the healing science which incorporates diagnosis, acupuncture, herbal medicine, therapeutic diet, and other methods; Syang Ming, the science which predicts a person's destiny by observing the outward physical manifestations of his face, skeleton, palms, and voice; Feng Shui, the science of discerning the subtle energy rays present in a geographic location to determine whether they will properly support the activities of a building or town constructed there; Fu Kua, the observation of the subtle alterations of yin and yang for the purpose of making decisions which are harmonious with the apparent and hidden aspects of a situation. The foundation of Fu Kua and of all Taoist practice is the study of the I Ching, or Book of Changes.

Nei Dan, Wai Dan, and Fang Jung, the sciences of refining one's personal energy through alchemy, chemistry, and the cultivation of balanced sexual energy; Tai Syi, the science of revitalization through breathing and visualization techniques; Chwun Shi, the transformation of one's spiritual essence through keeping one's thoughts in accord with the Divine Source; Shu-Ser, the attunement of one's daily life to the cycle of universal energy rays; Bi Gu, the practice of fasting on specific days in order to gather life energy emanating from the harmonized positions of certain stars; Sau Yi, the science of embracing integral transcendental oneness in order to accomplish conception of the 'mystical pearl'; Tai Chi Ch'uan, the performance of physical exercises to induce and direct energy flows within the body to gain mastery of body, breath, mind, the internal organs, and life and death; Fu Chi, the science of reforming and refining one's energy with pure food and herbs; Chuan Se, the inner visualization of the unity of one's inner and outer being; 'Dzai Jing, the purification of one's energy through ascetic practices; Fu Jou, the drawing of mystical pictures and the writing and recital of mystical invocations for the purpose of evoking a response from the subtle realm of the universe; Tsan Syan, the process of dissolving the ego and connecting with the Great Oneness through the study of classical scriptures and daily dialogue with an enlightened master; Lyou Yen and Chi Men, the mystical sciences of energy linkage for the purpose of influencing external affairs. Of these, the most important for beginners is the study of the I Ching, which enables one to perceive the hidden influences in every situation and thus establish a balanced and spiritually evolved means of responding to them. All are instruments for attaining the Tao. To study them is to serve universal unity, harmony, and wisdom."

[kungfujunky]

Well said Shadowlin.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well said Shadowlin.

Meh...maybe not so much.

There are four things at stake in any association with SD:

1) Martial Arts (the ability to defend / take offensive)

2) The tradition of the art

3) the Teachers

4) Sound business practices


I know it's a silent #4, and one that most MA students do not really care to address (after all, CMA isn't exactly built on sound commercial premises--hence the entrenched abhorrence of groundfighting in TMA, despite its obvious utility in so many circumstances), but this is where I respect breaks with SD. Remember that all contracts and advertising should reflect the most honest branding of the martial arts at stake in SD. SD obviously has enough, in content (i.e., in store), to keep people coming back--even despite the bad brand name and its "corporate culture."

I respect SD's MA--hit hard, utilize sweeps/throws, etc. Learn variety, rather than specializing in a niche that might not utilize your best fighting skills.

I have a hard time respecting SD's Traditions, since many of them are quite sketchy. If GM Sin was misled, he had the responsibility, it seems to me, to question that information the same as we do before passing it on as gospel. I mean--****--I was just a student, but I knew I shouldn't pass on bad stories and false info to other students. It's irresponsible! Granted, this isn't a moral responsibility in so many terms; its a more academic responsibility--checking sources and whatnot. He knew GGM Ie personally, and he learned--something--firsthand from the man. But the rest of the stuff is sketchy to the max, and should have been scrapped. Had he simply come to America and said: "I'm from Bandung, Indonesia, and I learned martial arts from Ie Chang Ming (and that silent et al)," no big deal. Show us what you've got, and prove that it's worthwhile. Wanna make up some forms? Fine, just show me how they improve my martial abilities. It's the Shaolin Grandmaster thing that's the problem, along with misrepresentation in the branding of the forms (you know, all that legal stuff from the deposition).

Teachers are best judged by students and other teachers. I've met quite a few valuable and skilled teachers in SD. Due to the nature of the system, GM The' couldn't spend too much time in one place. But why, when he could visit, did he just teach forms---no skills, drills, techniques, etc. And why couldn't he demonstrate those skills with the fluency he should have displayed?

And then there's #4--you can excel in so many ways in MA, but you've got to keep it real. If you teach good MA, adhere to tradition for tradition's sake, and turn yourself into a great teacher, it seems to me that you still always have the responsibility of selling your product to customers with honesty and integrity. I think the overarching SD framework may have been the problem all the while, since it required adherence to questionable "traditions" and whatnot. How many SD teachers would keep telling the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story if they didn't fear contradicting GM The's personal website and branding campaign? Not many, I'd guess.

My two cents--I'm just a former customer and a student. I'm not trying to start some ****. Just, I completely understand why freedom from the corporate school structure is a good thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

While the forms are not move for move the same you would have to Want to Not see the similarities and shared techniques to miss them.

Correct.

But take that other 50% of what you would have to NOT WANT TO SEE--the fluent movement, the energy, the athleticism, and the coordination.

I see analogs to Se MEng Tao Lian. But that Ngo guy did them 1000% better. Why? Probably all the stuff he learned and taught outside of the forms--the drills, the techniques, and whatnot. SD could develop these--and I think that's where its future lies. Build on the foundation, create something new to make up for gaps in transmission.

In short, whenever someone finds something that looks somewhat like SD, and then uses it as an example to prove SD's legitimacy, he more often than not glosses over that other 50%--everything that's not in SD.

I've been guilty of it before.;)

[David Jamieson]

lol, this thread is a prime example of what a cluster hump this really is. Step back, take a breath and look at this pile. ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie,
You are also correct in what you say. My interest, however, does not lie in what SD could have or should have been. I am only interested in what the material is and how it got to us.
I have been told in the past by more than one instructor that finding the techniques in the forms was up to the student and once the student had the proper understanding of the forms then applications and drills to work them would be apparent. Now, I know that this is a strange concept to most of us who tend to expect these things to be handed over since we paid to learn them, but I also know, from the little research I've been able to do, that in many traditional schools that was not how it was done. Many of the old masters did not teach applications and drills.

Cool. Here's the thing, though. Let's say that you have forms. What do they teach you about entry? Most MA's I've learned outside of CMA (not just SD) begin with some basic combinations. I'm not talking short forms and whatnot. I'm talking when to jab, leg kick (much less, how to leg kick and with how much power), when to cross, when to hook, and how to tie a basic combo together if you're on the attack. Nothing in a form teaches you entry, and this is the most important thing---when and how do I go on the attack, not waiting to counter. This requries psychological and physical training--the kind you get with contact only. And sooner or later, you have to be on the attack (especially if you're defending yourself). And then there's always a basic bridging/contact drill--chi sau, hubud, contact flow, pad work, or whatever (not push hands). There has to be something to tie it all together. Why are these not a core of SD's curriculum?

I guess what I'm saying is that entry--attacking an opponent without waiting for him to make the first move, and giving a strong enough barrage is incredibly important, yet completely at odds with the form theory. After all, you can't turn a form into a mentality. Sometimes you have to cripple your opponent through force, rather than a chess match. I had to really get used to attacking people in my short mma stint. Nothing in a form prepares you for that.

Then there's the weapons. Two man sets do not a weapons master make. What about actual real-time stick drills and disarms. I've seen plenty sd (and CMA demos), but not many utilizable drills. You can't expect to learn broadsword fighting by form. Nothing in human history suggests such a preposterous idea. Take the weapon out of the hand and nothing changes.

Forms train the body. I don't think they train the mind.

As for the "traditional way," I personally thing that this is pure business. No mystic secrets or anything. Kind of a labor union/guild mentality--don't teach everything, or else your school will die when younger competitors not as interested in tradition open up across the street and start whooping your students' behinds. Again---that silent #4. Most Asian cultures have proven incredibly hostile to capitalism / markets. Their business models reflect this.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just to play devils advocate:

Lets say the forms are supposed to teach the basics of stick fighting or swordplay. Do you think GM sin in his prime (or sd's premiere weapons guy) could
Defeat a Kali or escrima expert? If we say no, and then say that weapons aren't the only focus of an sd master, and that we are preserving a tradition, then it becomes clear that we need to know what tradition we preserve. If the forms aren't giving us the mastery that drilling would, then the forms had better be doing something else. (Personally, I think they give a well-rounded education). Then it becomes necessary to say--the master of
These forms wished to pass down x, y, z. And if those
Forms are passed down by the master for
That purpose, then he must distill those principles. He cannot project them psychically through a form


Now, I say this having studied under a man who always challenged me to drill and master concepts, etc. but I also know he was not conventional in this way ( in ma, not just sd).

Now,

[hskwarrior]

CORRECTION:


I had to really get used to attacking people in my short mma stint. Nothing in SHAOLIN DO prepares you for that.

How can you expect to learn the ins and out's when most of shaolin do's knowledge is only surface deep? such is the effect of stealing from books and video without proper instruction.

[Shaolin Wookie]

CORRECTION:



How can you expect to learn the ins and out's when most of shaolin do's knowledge is only surface deep? such is the effect of stealing from books and video without proper instruction.

How can you expect to learn the ins and outs of combat when most of Hung Gar's knowledge is only forms deep? such is the effect of doing forms and ****ty drills without proper combat instruction.

[hskwarrior]

How can you expect to learn the ins and outs of combat when most of Hung Gar's knowledge is only forms deep? such is the effect of doing forms and ****ty drills without proper combat instruction.

I guess that's good that i'm not a hung gar guy. but shaolin do will always pale in comparison to authentic gung fu.

[shen ku]

Did anyone take the seminar last weekend with GM Sin The?

[hskwarrior]

gues that answered your question hahahaha

[shen ku]

No it realy doesn't. You know how it goes on here, it can be dead for weeks and then add three pages overnight. And then as I am sure you know somepeople just hang out and watch this madness.

Hope your training is going well, and that God is blessing.

[bodhi warrior]

No it realy doesn't. You know how it goes on here, it can be dead for weeks and then add three pages overnight. And then as I am sure you know somepeople just hang out and watch this madness.

Hope your training is going well, and that God is blessing.

I wasn't there, but if it's the shaolin 7 stars form then you can find countless instructional videos on YouTube. I'm sure The' learned it from a video. He taught all the material he knows a long time ago.

[shen ku]

Have you been to any of his seminars over the last 5 years or so?

[bodhi warrior]

Have you been to any of his seminars over the last 5 years or so?

The last one I attended was the 5 animal seminar. By Bill Leonard. I was super excited to attend it. I wondered how similar it would be to the form in Doc Fai Wong's book. Imagine my surprise to see it was the exact same form! Now this form is long. I expected an 8 hour seminar. But he wanted get through it in record time. It was like a 3 hour class. Impossible to learn.
The last Sin The' seminar I attended was one of the ground monkeys. I'll admit, I liked this one. But here's the thing...you had guys who have been with Sin 30+ years learning this for the first time. Along with people with less than 2 years. Does this really make sense? I mean, wouldn't they already know it?

[shen ku]

i have thought the same thing. SD is the only art i have directly trained in, i have crossed hands with a few others, but i have known of others that did seminars very much as SD does. I go to SD seminars but not so much as for the form but to get the chance to talk to others in SD that i respect.

But i did also enjoy the ground monkey, both of them. I have looked for things like it and the only things i have found have been called dog kung fu or ground kung fu.

[bodhi warrior]

i have thought the same thing. SD is the only art i have directly trained in, i have crossed hands with a few others, but i have known of others that did seminars very much as SD does. I go to SD seminars but not so much as for the form but to get the chance to talk to others in SD that i respect.

But i did also enjoy the ground monkey, both of them. I have looked for things like it and the only things i have found have been called dog kung fu or ground kung fu.

I agree it is a good way to reunite with friends.
But how can it be that Sin's most senior and private students with 30+ years devotion hadn't already learned this material. And then learn it for the first time along side yellow belts. The only reasonable answer is it was recently picked up by Sin.
I still believe that the core material shared between Sin and Hiang is the only legitimate material they learned. And it's the stuff I really like.

[One student]

I agree it is a good way to reunite with friends.
But how can it be that Sin's most senior and private students with 30+ years devotion hadn't already learned this material. And then learn it for the first time along side yellow belts. The only reasonable answer is it was recently picked up by Sin.
I still believe that the core material shared between Sin and Hiang is the only legitimate material they learned. And it's the stuff I really like.

It has been said that GMS picks the material he teaches in some random order from what he knows or has learned, according to what he chooses to teach and when. That's why even the older students haven't learned it yet, because he hadn't taught it yet, to anyone. No point in debating where it came from or when, only he knows for sure.

There have been some required prerequisites, like when Golden Leopard was a mandatory prerequisite for The Meteor Fist (Liu Hsing). But not usually the case.

And it has also been said that in the early 80's, when GMS started teaching more new material, that it was offered to the senior students first, exclusively, and THEY chose to open it up to everyone GMS wanted to teach it to, and be inclusive. That is why new material is taught to everyone at the same time.

Doesn't mean its a good thing, or a bad thing, that yellow belts and high end black belts are learning the same material, that is at least in part for them to decide. One can plant the seeds, some falls on fertile soil, some doesn't. As with everything, its what the individual makes of it. Doesn't necessarily mean that a beginner shouldn't get to see and experience the material.

But its also commonly known that GMS does teach some material only to the highest rank/longest tenured students, but who do not discuss it outside of that forum. That material is a far cry from a new empty hand animal form, like Monkey-Tiger or Seven Star Fist, which in complexity is not far from other brown belt or lower black belt forms.

[One student]

I wasn't there, but if it's the shaolin 7 stars form then you can find countless instructional videos on YouTube. I'm sure The' learned it from a video. He taught all the material he knows a long time ago.

Unless you've seen both the YouTube versions of the Shaolin 7 Star fist and the SD Monkey-Tiger/Seven Star Fist, you cannot say what they are much less that one came from the other. Even if they had some very common movements or common sequences, but also have variations from each other, moves the other does not, or differences in some of the motions, movements, steps, and directions, that by itself doesn't mean anything.

And of course, the "monks" on YouTube do martial arts much differently in "style" than most SD practitioners, but that's also been discussed a lot.

So as with some other forms, all it (probably) means, if the forms have similarities and differences, is either that one of them came from the other, or they both came from some common source some steps removed from each other. One explanation is no more or less likely than the other, on the face of it -- but someone with a particular mental bent in one direction or the other will naturally go that way, regardless of the truth of it. If you've seen both GMS's version and the YouTube versions, AND they have similarities, you can't say that GMS's version didn't come from his own recollection or notes of it, because it is different, which yes can be on purpose or can be by accident, or can also be just because they are different. The point is, especially around here, unless you have it on tape or in writing from the source (GMS), no one can be "sure" the SD version came from a video. Or for that matter, that GMS has already taught everything he learned from home. One forgets that his "specialty" was in the Shaolin Golden Snake system. Has it been openly taught to anyone?

[bodhi warrior]

It is presumptuous. I know. But it's based on the untruths that came forth in the deposition. Sin The's greed and ego also play their part. But in the end it's just my opinion.
Another point on forms. Back in the early days we had much fewer forms but a lot of sparring and conditioning. This is when some very good fighters were produced. Eric Smith, Bill Leonard, Bob Green, etc. they didn't know 5 animals, Chen tai chi, golden leopard, liu shing, etc. so in the end all these new forms are just to make money. They don't really add anything. Especially when they're skimmed over in a seminar.
I really do find the common material of sin and Hiang that was taught pre 1990 to be very good and applicable. Simple and effective. Not fancy at all. But again this is just my opinion.

[shen ku]

AMEN, I love the lower stuff, old stuff. But some of it is now not being shown like it was, or worked to the level it should be. That is where my focus is, in the details that I was first shown.

[One student]

It is presumptuous. I know. But it's based on the untruths that came forth in the deposition. Sin The's greed and ego also play their part. But in the end it's just my opinion.
Another point on forms. Back in the early days we had much fewer forms but a lot of sparring and conditioning. This is when some very good fighters were produced. Eric Smith, Bill Leonard, Bob Green, etc. they didn't know 5 animals, Chen tai chi, golden leopard, liu shing, etc. so in the end all these new forms are just to make money. They don't really add anything. Especially when they're skimmed over in a seminar.
I really do find the common material of sin and Hiang that was taught pre 1990 to be very good and applicable. Simple and effective. Not fancy at all. But again this is just my opinion.

I think your point might be, assuming what you say is true about the untruths, greed, ego, etc., it means that some or all of his "new" material might not be his stuff, either. I'm not sure that qualifies as an opinion as much as it does a guess, but none of us can say you might not be right, unless of course someone knows more about the source than anyone here is saying. But someone else's opinion, or guess, the other way is just as valid.

As for the new forms and what they "add": I look at in a few different ways. First, doing new things is good for fitness, cross-training, "muscle confusion" and all that, even if I can't fight with such and such a form like I (think or hope I) can with the early base material. So there is the pure fitness and conditioning aspect.

Second, doing a new form might make one see something in an old form that wasn't noticed before. I can remember learning the classical Pa Kua set, and years later learning the Dragon Pa Kua form, and seeing things in the other set that I hadn't thought of before. Not that much different than what the later "old" material helped add to the lower forms. It all builds on itself, and the new builds on the old.

Also, since it is supposed to be an "art" as well as a fighting system, there is nothing wrong with putting aside old ways and techniques, and learning how to adapt and apply new ones. I've heard it said that learning new things is good for the brain, helps fight off diseases like Alzheimer's and dementia. Someone wiser than I said, "be like water, always changing and moving and adapting."

And, someone thought that there was a fighting benefit to every form, style, and system, at some point, and there is a benefit in trying to find it. As someone else also said, the journey IS the goal -- or something like that. Those who became more proficient without new material, might actually be able to find gems of fighting in a new form, style, or system. If they haven't just gotten plain bored with the old stuff, after doing it for decades, and dying for something new to try. I do not claim to be so wise and skilled that I can say that any new form might not add some fighting skill or technique to someone's arsenal, even if it doesn't immediately add to mine.

And if nothing else, I can think of it this way: I first started reading, to learn how to read. And there are some things that come along that I read now, not because it makes me a better reader, or teaches me something new, but because its fun to read it. That might be all there is to it -- its just fun, to see and learn something new. Vanilla ice cream is good, but I like a little chocolate every now and then. Might be the case with new forms, too. And that isn't all bad. And not a waste of time, either. Even if someone is making some money from it. Doesn't every teacher make something by teaching, whatever? I'm sure there are some that don't, but I don't know very many. But that doesn't, by itself, make them bad.

Of course you have a point about the benefit of just skimming the surface of something in a seminar. I'm not convinced that is the best way to get the most out of something. But on the other hand, it forces someone to get the gold out of it themselves, instead of being handed the gold up front. And it has been said there is a benefit to finding somethings on your own, instead of being spoon fed.

Its all just our opinions though, isn't it?

[MasterKiller]

I think your point might be, assuming what you say is true about the untruths, greed, ego, etc., it means that some or all of his "new" material might not be his stuff, either. I'm not sure that qualifies as an opinion as much as it does a guess, but none of us can say you might not be right, unless of course someone knows more about the source than anyone here is saying. But someone else's opinion, or guess, the other way is just as valid.

As for the new forms and what they "add": I look at in a few different ways. First, doing new things is good for fitness, cross-training, "muscle confusion" and all that, even if I can't fight with such and such a form like I (think or hope I) can with the early base material. So there is the pure fitness and conditioning aspect.

Second, doing a new form might make one see something in an old form that wasn't noticed before. I can remember learning the classical Pa Kua set, and years later learning the Dragon Pa Kua form, and seeing things in the other set that I hadn't thought of before. Not that much different than what the later "old" material helped add to the lower forms. It all builds on itself, and the new builds on the old.

Also, since it is supposed to be an "art" as well as a fighting system, there is nothing wrong with putting aside old ways and techniques, and learning how to adapt and apply new ones. I've heard it said that learning new things is good for the brain, helps fight off diseases like Alzheimer's and dementia. Someone wiser than I said, "be like water, always changing and moving and adapting."

And, someone thought that there was a fighting benefit to every form, style, and system, at some point, and there is a benefit in trying to find it. As someone else also said, the journey IS the goal -- or something like that. Those who became more proficient without new material, might actually be able to find gems of fighting in a new form, style, or system. If they haven't just gotten plain bored with the old stuff, after doing it for decades, and dying for something new to try. I do not claim to be so wise and skilled that I can say that any new form might not add some fighting skill or technique to someone's arsenal, even if it doesn't immediately add to mine.

And if nothing else, I can think of it this way: I first started reading, to learn how to read. And there are some things that come along that I read now, not because it makes me a better reader, or teaches me something new, but because its fun to read it. That might be all there is to it -- its just fun, to see and learn something new. Vanilla ice cream is good, but I like a little chocolate every now and then. Might be the case with new forms, too. And that isn't all bad. And not a waste of time, either. Even if someone is making some money from it. Doesn't every teacher make something by teaching, whatever? I'm sure there are some that don't, but I don't know very many. But that doesn't, by itself, make them bad.

Of course you have a point about the benefit of just skimming the surface of something in a seminar. I'm not convinced that is the best way to get the most out of something. But on the other hand, it forces someone to get the gold out of it themselves, instead of being handed the gold up front. And it has been said there is a benefit to finding somethings on your own, instead of being spoon fed.

Its all just our opinions though, isn't it?

LOL. Yeah, put that on a flyer and hand it out to prospective students. See how rich you get.

[shen ku]

So as for SD, what groups are "in" & witch are "doing there own thing"?

[shen ku]

Sorry "which" lol must have been thinking of my ex

[shen ku]

budhi warrior, check your PM, i hadn't been on much.

[kungfujunky]

I have heard Mullins group is out, atlanta group is out (both left on their own) and the Soards were kicked out by The.

[shen ku]

Any details on the Soards story? I had heard atl and mullins had gone their own way

[Judge Pen]

Interesting, the Atlanta and Tennessee schools are still listed as the official schools on Sin The's website, but the Soards in Colorado are not....

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/co.html

But if you dig into this school's website, the instructor still is affiliated with the Soards.

[shen ku]

Interesting, the Atlanta and Tennessee schools are still listed as the official schools on Sin The's website, but the Soards in Colorado are not....

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/co.html

But if you dig into this school's website, the instructor still is affiliated with the Soards.

I noticed that also. I think the focus was to just remove them. Like a lot websites, no one is really keeping it up.

[shen ku]

I had heard that there were more gone but it may have just been about them and some under them.

[shen ku]

But all systems have their splits some for good reason, some for ego... I am just happy with what I do and the level I do it at.

[shen ku]

And on a side note my family just lost our health care... Thanks Big Gov.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Unless you've seen both the YouTube versions of the Shaolin 7 Star fist and the SD Monkey-Tiger/Seven Star Fist, you cannot say what they are much less that one came from the other.

So as with some other forms, all it (probably) means, if the forms have similarities and differences, is either that one of them came from the other, or they both came from some common source some steps removed from each other. One explanation is no more or less likely than the other, on the face of it -- but someone with a particular mental bent in one direction or the other will naturally go that way, regardless of the truth of it. If you've seen both GMS's version and the YouTube versions, AND they have similarities, you can't say that GMS's version didn't come from his own recollection or notes of it, because it is different, which yes can be on purpose or can be by accident, or can also be just because they are different. The point is, especially around here, unless you have it on tape or in writing from the source (GMS), no one can be "sure" the SD version came from a video. Or for that matter, that GMS has already taught everything he learned from home. One forgets that his "specialty" was in the Shaolin Golden Snake system. Has it been openly taught to anyone?

Quick retort. Why are his demos generally abysmal? I've seen him do some nice slow forms, and I've seen him do 5-minutes solo patty cake (Liu shing). If he's so good at golden snake , why didnt he teach the one thing he could do competently? The deduction is kind of simple


He never knew it, or hasn't yet created it. Also, have you noticed that the more athletic forms debuted when he was younger? He's teaching his own style. It develops as he does. Nothing wrong with that as long as you're honest about it. Known plenty of ma's who do that.

Seriously, if you were an expert carpenter, would you start teaching computer programming if you only knew a1980s version of DOS, and shakily at that?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Quick retort. Why are his demos generally abysmal? I've seen him do some nice slow forms, and I've seen him do 5-minutes solo patty cake (Liu shing). If he's so good at golden snake , why didnt he teach the one thing he could do competently? The deduction is kind of simple


He never knew it, or hasn't yet created it. Also, have you noticed that the more athletic forms debuted when he was younger? He's teaching his own style. It develops as he does. Nothing wrong with that as long as you're honest about it. Known plenty of ma's who do that.

Seriously, if you were an expert carpenter, would you start teaching computer programming if you only knew a1980s version of DOS, and shakily at that?

Answer: "no"


You'd teach carpentry

[Shaolin Wookie]

Answer: "no"


You'd teach carpentry

I'm not
Doubting his skills, b/c he pieced together a nice core of techniques and forms. I'm doubting his....knowledge base and mastery of much of what is taught. Some of his
Senior
Students also display the same...rigidity, which raises some questions.

[Shaolin Wookie]

And on a side note my family just lost our health care... Thanks Big Gov.

Four years ago I worked as an order picker with a guy who didnt purchase health insurance. I knew he made more
Money than I did, b/c before 2008 the company offered 8% yearly raises. I'd worked there only for a year and bought insurance. Well, dude went into the hospital four times and racked up over 10k in bills he never paid. He asked me for advice. I told him to buy insurance. He said he cpuldnt afford it. I told him that wasn't true because I made less, was married (wife worked weekends while in school), and I was saving up for a new car and a house, which I would end up buying in 2013.

I got promoted and whatnot, but something tells me that there are many guys out there now who will be subsidizing hc for irresponsible people who make more money. Stupid frigging govt.

[Judge Pen]

I believe that he has taught out Golden Snake to some senior students. I have not been told that by any of my former teachers, but believe it to be true for other reasons.

[shen ku]

Why is it on the insurance paper work they have to know if I am registerd to vote? And of I am not it seems I must now for insurance.. I am but I find this stramge

[shen ku]

I also believe a few have gotten golden snake.

[kungfujunky]

Ive seen a short snake form that hsiang taught out. it was very short but explosive. Looked like a cool system to study for sure.

[beng]

Ive seen a short snake form that hsiang taught out. it was very short but explosive. Looked like a cool system to study for sure.

Bet in moved in a box pattern.

[shen ku]

Why do you say a box pattern for?

[beng]

BC if it is the same one, then it is one of only two form/Kata in the SDA system I know of that moves in a box/square pattern. If not then it is snake form/kata, I haven't seen but I would be willing to bet it is the same one. I am just curious.

[shen ku]

Ok, so how long ago did you see the one you know of?

[beng]

Ok, so how long ago did you see the one you know of?

Sometime between 2002 and 2004 I would guess. It was snow day material meaning only like three or four of us showed up for class so we learn a couple little random forms. I didn't really keep up with any of them. to much other stuff to learn.

[beng]

Ok, so how long ago did you see the one you know of?

Sometime between 2002 and 2004 I would guess. It was snow day material meaning only like three or four of us showed up for class so we learn a couple little random forms. I didn't keep up with any of them. to much other stuff to learn.

[bodhi warrior]

Sometime between 2002 and 2004 I would guess. It was snow day material meaning only like three or four of us showed up for class so we learn a couple little random forms. I didn't keep up with any of them. to much other stuff to learn.

Did you study with Hiang long?

[beng]

Did you study with Hiang long?

No l never studied with master hiang, I am just pretty sure I have seen the snake form described. I am just curious if it is the same one.

[Judge Pen]

I've seen that form too. It is short and compact moving in four directions (I assume that's what is meant by "box pattern"). I never learned it myself. I was told it was different than Golden Snake, and believe it to be. There was also a Horse form that I've seen that I believe came from Hiang The, but I could be mistaken. Never learned that one either.

[beng]

JP, yeah same one. I don't think it has any thing to do with golden snake. I also saw the horse form at the same time.

[shen ku]

I always find it funny about SD, most of us have seen so much that we can't do ..again I must say I enjoy our basics most of all, whereever they came from...

[Judge Pen]

That's always been one of the most effective criticisms of SD. No matter what you think of the origins of the system, the efficacy of what is taught is always the primary point. And if you learn so much material that it is impossible to keep worked up and effective, then it starts to lose its point. At one time I had a schedule where I would work on all my material in a given week. Just to go through the forms I had learned once would equal 15 to 20 hours a week of training. Unless you are a full time instructor, that type of schedule is difficult to maintain. I've forgotten more forms than some systems have....

[bodhi warrior]

I always find it funny about SD, most of us have seen so much that we can't do ..again I must say I enjoy our basics most of all, whereever they came from...

I agree! And very applicable!

[shen ku]

The way the basics are put together really allows a person to grow, if they work them and not just push rank..

[Judge Pen]

I agree with the basics building off one another, but the problem became all the extra stuff being offered choked up the system with forms taught with no basics. The better practitioners I've met seemed to focus on the core material primarily.

[shen ku]

Evryone gets so focused on whats new, and they never really work it before they chase the next NEW. Don't get me wrong I go to the new class take the form. Some I do work, some I really like and have dug in to. But a lot I never touch, their just not for me. But I enjoy just getting with other teachers and students. But the basics from white to black is where I find most of wat I use. I may see this move or that different the you do. I have a training partner and we both apply the same moves differently.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The way the basics are put together really allows a person to grow, if they work them and not just push rank..

And then the forms begin to get into the way. I found about 10 forms that were good for me. I practiced the hell out of them, neglected the others, and stuck with that program. It worked out well. Attain mastery of some core formal concepts to concretize techniques, and you'll get better at forms you don't practice, and probably don't need to. But the variety is nice from a cardio standpoint, if nothing else

I used to laugh a little though when we'd learn a new form with a particularly emphasized technique, and people would treat it as a defining move. Meanwhile, they'd do the same move in 10 other forms without emphasis....lol. Did it too myself for a while

[shen ku]

I know what you mean. When I teach I often point out a move and then point it out orm.in like 10 other spots in the system to show how iortant that move is, not just that f

[OldandUsed]

It is amazing that this is still going on! I was away for a while and thought I would check on the thread.

[GeneChing]

Not only is it still going, it's still on the first page of the Shaolin forum. Whassup wid dat? :rolleyes:

[Sol Inv]

Was the question eventually answered?

[OldandUsed]

I don't know how to explain that, really. I was part of the SD cult for many years. During that time, I was surprised at the venom I experienced from those outside of SD in the "accepted" MA community. I had cross-trained in other arts and had other things that I did, but was always surprised at the reaction when I said I did SD.

I realize that SKT lied about much of the material he put out and that his background is questionable, but it is not like there is not a precedent of what he did all through the MA community. I do not know why he did not just call it something else and get on with it.

This thread is entertainment for me. I do not want to prop up SD and I do not want to diss SD, I just want to visit and enjoy the show. :)

[ShaolinDan]

Was the question eventually answered?

It's all in how you define "for real."

[bodhi warrior]

I checked the Denver school's website and Sin The' doesn't seem to be mentioned. Checked Sin The's website and no Soards. I guess they did split.

[shen ku]

I love working internals in the snow!!

[shen ku]

Anyone know any more on the splits?

[Old Noob]

That's always been one of the most effective criticisms of SD. No matter what you think of the origins of the system, the efficacy of what is taught is always the primary point. And if you learn so much material that it is impossible to keep worked up and effective, then it starts to lose its point. At one time I had a schedule where I would work on all my material in a given week. Just to go through the forms I had learned once would equal 15 to 20 hours a week of training. Unless you are a full time instructor, that type of schedule is difficult to maintain. I've forgotten more forms than some systems have....

True. This is part of the reason I've elected not to test beyond 1st black. I got 1st black almost four years ago now and have decided that I already have almost too much material to keep solid at the same time. I also made this decision because I believe most of the "stolen" stuff is taught out at the higher ranks (there are too many moves in the black tigers that come from the short katas for them to be stolen). My teacher has asked me to test a couple of times but I think he's become okay with the idea that I'm just going to hold what I've got. Every now and then, he'll teach me a random form (most recently 14th crane, which is a nice piece).

Anywho, it's been a while since I've been on. My work finally decided to block the forum so I don't get one very much. Hope you are all well.

[hskwarrior]

is this part of shaolin do?
http://www.shoushu.com/blog/1

[shen ku]

Looks like a club that will take in instructors leaving their own system.
The guy does make me think SD. The dimonds on his belt are often used in SD.

[shen ku]

Its like a ghost town in here.

[sean_stonehart]

Eh ... is what it is ...

Kinda curious that SKT is teaching a Lost Tracking (sic) set now ...

[pazman]

is this part of shaolin do?
http://www.shoushu.com/blog/1

Yeah, shoushu was always the fake kung fu people would make fun if they got tired of bagging on shaolin-do. They aren't related.

[hskwarrior]

that's good to know.

[Judge Pen]

Eh ... is what it is ...

Kinda curious that SKT is teaching a Lost Tracking (sic) set now ...

I missed that (not that I've been keeping up). Any info?

[sean_stonehart]

I missed that (not that I've been keeping up). Any info?

Nah ... just saw it on the KY website ... I browse it for my own car wreck like qualities.

I can't help it.

[hskwarrior]

your theory is correct about the circus attraction. but shaolin do's connection to the shaolin temple, especially the one that was destroyed is pure nonsense.


When he finally stopped, he held the whip up for the audience to see seven coins pierced and stuck on the pointed tip of his chain whip. At this point the audience went wild. The crowd then quieted as Ji Shou Hu raised the whip handle and extended his Ch'i power into the weapon. The Whip began to straighten out horizontally, one link at a time until finally the entire chain whip stood straight out from his hand. At his command the whip fell limp again at his side."

pure fukkin lies and FANTASY. but this is the type of stuff SD chooses to believe because of its CULT appeal.

[Shaolin Wookie]

your theory is correct about the circus attraction. but shaolin do's connection to the shaolin temple, especially the one that was destroyed is pure nonsense.



pure fukkin lies and FANTASY. but this is the type of stuff SD chooses to believe because of its CULT appeal.

Name names. Universal propositions are fun, aren't they? Name one dude other than SKT who believes that story. Short list, huh?

Meanwhile, the loads of commie inspired cma bs sold as Kung fu gospel grows, and surely everyone believes the stories about cranes and gorillas, right? Lol.....and bodhi dharma cut off his eyelids, right? Surely every Buddhist believes that bs, right? And he floated across the river on a reed, right? So surely Buddhists all believe in pure fuukkin lies and fantasy, right? Wanna move on to western culture, chief?

[hskwarrior]

Meanwhile, the loads of commie inspired cma bs sold as Kung fu gospel grows, and surely everyone believes the stories about cranes and gorillas, right? Lol.....and bodhi dharma cut off his eyelids, right? Surely every Buddhist believes that bs, right? And he floated across the river on a reed, right? So surely Buddhists all believe in pure fuukkin lies and fantasy, right? Wanna move on to western culture, chief?

Shaolin Do and its disciples would believe it. they would believe anything their overseer would tell them. ANYTHING!


Wanna move on to western culture, chief?

TRUE kung fu has no western culture. Even when its in the west. Kapeetan!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin Do and its disciples would believe it. they would believe anything their overseer would tell them. ANYTHING!



TRUE kung fu has no western culture. Even when its in the west. Kapeetan!

Hilarious. All Chinese ma masters were clamoring to join the cultural revolution and move up the ranks under Mao and his wife. They weren't flying from the land in droves to seek those silly western ideas of free markets, independence, and low government interference with daily life. No. They wanted to turn their schools over to prc endorsed wushu, because that was their true democratic legacy. If the party willed it, then who could possibly disagree? After all, the party is the voice of the people.

Lol

CMA owes the west a great deal. It flourished here. CMA preaches creative self expression and individual cultivation. Not to mention the right and necessity to bear arms. What could be more western (and less eastern) than that?

[hskwarrior]

CMA owes the west a great deal. It flourished here.

yes, my lineage is at the forefront of gung fu in america. but they doesn't owe anything to the west. nothing at all.

don't know about the others, but from the get go our gung fu lineage originating in fut san, they'd been fighting revolution after revolution for 100 years.
they went underground because they didn't want the government issued stuff.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yes, my lineage is at the forefront of gung fu in america. but they doesn't owe anything to the west. nothing at all.

don't know about the others, but from the get go our gung fu lineage originating in fut san, they'd been fighting revolution after revolution for 100 years.
they went underground because they didn't want the government issued stuff.

Lol. Again, hilarious. They had the freedom to come here, open up business, and flourish. Now, regilation America ain't exactly free, and that's a shame, but your masters do owe a debt of gratitude to the western ideal of individual sovereignty. The east didn't fight the socialist nanny staters. Oh what a paradise it is now, huh? Without an open minded society to which they could emigrate, your entire lineage would have been ground into millet by the Marxian miillstone, and you'd be talking about your deadly butterfly kicks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lol. Again, hilarious. They had the freedom to come here, open up business, and flourish. Now, regilation America ain't exactly free, and that's a shame, but your masters do owe a debt of gratitude to the western ideal of individual sovereignty. The east didn't fight the socialist nanny staters. Oh what a paradise it is now, huh? Without an open minded society to which they could emigrate, your entire lineage would have been ground into millet by the Marxian miillstone, and you'd be talking about your deadly butterfly kicks.
That's right. I'm quoting myself, because you need to hear it twice

The fact that your masters had their (possessive pronoun) school means something

There's a good chance your lineage would be nothing (it wouldn't exist) without the west. It'd have remained underground until it was finally decided that is was buried---finito, dead, gone, caput

[hskwarrior]

Lol. Again, hilarious. They had the freedom to come here, open up business, and flourish.

so you know what it was like during the 1920's for the chinese here? really?
you honestly think they came to USA to open gung fu schools? did Sin The teach you that wackiness?



The fact that your masters had their (possessive pronoun) school means something

There's a good chance your lineage would be nothing (it wouldn't exist) without the west

yeah, your shaolin do ism has blinded you for life. The chinese don't owe USA anything. nothing at all. in fact, the chinese didn't want AMERICA part of their gung fu.
so i don't know what you're talking about. but i know you just don't know.

[hskwarrior]

regilation

what is Regilation? a hindi word or something?

[hskwarrior]

It'd have remained underground until it was finally decided that is was buried---finito, dead, gone, caput

We are America's FIRST gung fu school. Almost 100 years later, we are still here, underground for almost 100 years and still growing.
Our elders were not interested in anything FROM the west. not then. and not now.


and you'd be talking about your deadly butterfly kicks.

we leave that up to folks like yourself, who don't go out fighting, anywhere. you guys are only deadly in your schools. step outside you guys get stomped because Sin The fooled you all into believing you guys have skill. But, we all know what EVERYONE outside of Shaolin Do thinks about YOUR deadly bee stings. LMAO

[Jimbo]

That's right. I'm quoting myself, because you need to hear it twice

The fact that your masters had their (possessive pronoun) school means something

There's a good chance your lineage would be nothing (it wouldn't exist) without the west. It'd have remained underground until it was finally decided that is was buried---finito, dead, gone, caput

Actually, CLF (and many other systems) had also spread to and flourished in countries/places like The Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc., before Mao took over China.

[hskwarrior]

Actually, CLF (and many other systems) had also spread to and flourished in countries/places like The Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc., before Mao took over China.

he's (SW) funny. he acts like he knows something. haha

[Rover]

Guys,please don't cool off,and feel free to enjoy a photo of another american gong fu fighter. (representetive photo)
8625
ps : Don't forget to pay attention to that glare in his eyes what as a result of saving tcma in the name of glorious amurica <3

[Faux Newbie]

Most of the skilled kung fu practitioners are in China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. Some are in the West, but it will probably never be most, because it's Chinese martial arts, and a majority of its practitioners are going to be Chinese. Simple logistics.

People who universalize the effect of the Cultural Revolution in China are a bit behind the times. It's a lot easier to find good kung fu in China, it's simple logistics, and lots of groups kept their styles alive. The whole "all the good kung fu teachers left the mainland" was popularized by kung fu people from Taiwan and Hong Kong, it''s just smack talk and competition. In the modern era, it doesn't even apply. Some lines may have died out, but it seems now that a great many thought to be gone actually held on in some areas.

Look at Chen style. Lots of people doing it are doing the traditional set, not the wushu set.

Additionally, the idea that all the good teachers left assumes a lot about their economic resources during those times, and their willingness to leave their homeland.

The U.S., as a kung fu community, has generally been following the trends set in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. Coincidentally, the U.S. had the same forms craze as China, but for capitalist reasons. In both regions, there are groups and individuals who train beyond form, but there will always be more of them in China.

[nautavac]

This may have been touched in in this monster of a thread, but since the deposition has anyone spoken with GM Sin about these issues? I am also interested in the school in Indonesia, has anyone ever contacted GGM Ie's old school in Indonesia to merely ask about Sin The? Just wandering.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This may have been touched in in this monster of a thread, but since the deposition has anyone spoken with GM Sin about these issues? I am also interested in the school in Indonesia, has anyone ever contacted GGM Ie's old school in Indonesia to merely ask about Sin The? Just wandering.

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

[nautavac]

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

Thank you for your reply, Could I pm you, I have more questions? about some of the material. BTW when I mentioned asking Sin about his take on things I had not considered your point "Now there's just the art..." It would still be interesting to know if the Indonesia school was still in operation and what they thought of SD. It is interesting as well what GM Hiang has listed on his website, and the curriculum is even more interesting (at least to me) in terms of the material. Anyhow, thankyou for the reply. ad augusta per angusta

[One student]

It doesn't matter what he says, for the most part. He has spread many versions of his own lineage, and what he says cannot be trusted. Now there's just the art, as it is in the hands of its practitioners.

I'm pretty sure, however, that there is a strong kuntao root in "some" of the forms. The longfist, cranes, mantis, and hua--those are chinese. But then think of the "generic" forms--the 3 birds and Tai forms, etc. The reason that many of the forms in the curriculum do not mesh well together at each belt level is that they're a mixture of traditional chinese and very kuntao-esque forms. The 3 brown belt birds have many...many repetitions of puter kepala in each the forms--with different emphasis and entry. They are undeniably rooted in kuntao. You can see where GM Sin tried to transform them into striking arts----hence, finger thrusts after elbows instead of jutting your hand forward to control the turning of the skull on the flourish-retreat into a broken leg stance (perfect for transition into a choke hold or some harimau). I think that the attempt to push these forms into a "Chinese" pattern confused their origins and *******ized their techniques. At least, this is my take after having studied kuntao and SD under a teacher who taught both arts. Once you see the puter kepala in the birds, you'll never "un-see" them ever again.

I'd like more information on what is "puter kepala," but I'm not sure GMS would disagree with you on some of this "kun tao" description. He was once personally translating some of the text on those famous paintings on the wall in his School, and translated some of the words of the arts being demonstrated or related in the painting as specifically "kun tao." Some people might think that is a bad thing, but he apparently did not. Maybe the better, less confrontational question for one who is closer to him would be, what relationship does the "kun tao" as it is known in Indonesia have to Shaolin Do?

[nautavac]

I wander if it would be possible to add a link to any specific kun tao vid that has the same techs as SD in any form, or at least looks very similar? I know that i am probably the only one here still interested but it would not be too far fetched for some of the chinese immigrants specialty styles to have been influenced by the developing kun tao or vice versa.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wander if it would be possible to add a link to any specific kun tao vid that has the same techs as SD in any form, or at least looks very similar? I know that i am probably the only one here still interested but it would not be too far fetched for some of the chinese immigrants specialty styles to have been influenced by the developing kun tao or vice versa.

That's not all too easy. Kuntao forms and Silat forms are a lot different than CMA (huas, seven star mantis, etc), and they're diverse. I'd say step one ( and this has always been my primary critique of sd's chinna) is to learn chinna as a method of attack, not defense. Always grab, and ignore anyone who says otherwise. As for kuntao techniques , definitely look at throws, etc. I don't know that Joseph Simonet is a particularly good example of kuntao, but his serak is 99% related to what it learned in the first 5 or so jurus. I think I saw a video of him demonstrating puter kepala when I googled it a moment ago to look for YouTube links. Now, all martial arts have specific likenesses---there are only so many ways to sweep someone--so it doesn't matter which one you learn. It's all about setup and entry. For puter kepala, for instance, you need a strong attack to set it up---drive your forearm into his throat from a clinch, attack with an elbow, etc. so, look at the link below. See the bird clear ( block opponents right lead) , the elbow counter, the wrap (finger thrust), and the flourish (throw). The broken leg stance puts you in position to 1) choke him out, or (2) apply arm lock by turning his chin away with your left hand while breakin his arm across your midsection with the leverage of your right arm. The form ends with a clear, elbow and finger jab and then a backwards step and slanting fly motion. This is puter kepala with a neck break. Do the throw, but before it gets too far, stop controlling the arm rotation and focus on the neck. Bird 2 is all about catching an arm and pulling, either from a grab or clinch. The hop is just to throw your weight. Bird 3 three has a nastier puter kepala in it. A little experimenting reveals it quickly

http://youtu.be/YUzVV2Wqbtk