Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 80

nautavac

06-24-2014, 11:17 AM

Kuntao in Southeast Asia

By Mark V. Wiley and Alexander L. Co

"The art of kuntao is at once fascinating and largely misunder- stood. Developed along China's southernmost coastal province of Fukien, kuntao is a Hokkien dialect term used to describe any number of indigenous Chineese martial arts. Confusion over the classification of kuntao among other Chinese and Southeast Asian martial arts arises as the term is inadequately definable and largely generic. In fact, there is no standard Chinese ideogram for the word. Thus, kuntao's definition and the arts it encompasses are left to open interpretation.
On a basic levet a definition for kuntao would find kun meaning "fist" and tao meaning "way." Thus, kuntao would simply mean the "way of the fist." This term, much like karate, kempo, and chuan fa, is merely a different language for the same thing- i.e., the art of empty-hand combat."

So then, after watching some of the techs that wookie was referencing, would it be a misnomer to connect GGM IE AND GM SIN as well as the bandung school as being an off shoot of kuntao found in this area of China? The alleged lineage aside that is. Could it possible that as Ie traveled to indonesia several of his techs were changed according to what he experienced? Once in bandung would it be possible to follow the immediate surrounding culture with respect to the school itself (uniforms, terminology, etc), in order to attract more students in that area? I am probably wrong here but to me it just seems reasonable. You folks have much more experience with MA than i do, and i do respect that (and envy you all), it just seems that while most of sins claims seem fantastic and not reliable, that he did learn something in bandung alongside Hiang who keeps the same curriculum aside from the Tai peng portion, and Sin may include those as well, idk. Just some ramblings from someone who has a habit of practicing strikes, stances, combos, hitting harder and harder objects, and going through home brewed Jow medicine as though it were skin lotion from bath and body. FWIWIMO any thoughts?

nautavac

06-24-2014, 11:21 AM

i forgot ask, is there any real connection between the shaolin temple gungfu and the kuntao along the southern most coastal region of china? Just wandering. Thanx in advance for any opinions or info, i truly do value the insights of everyone on here, (at least to a point).

Shaolin Wookie

06-24-2014, 10:20 PM

So then, after watching some of the techs that wookie was referencing, would it be a misnomer to connect GGM IE AND GM SIN as well as the bandung school as being an off shoot of kuntao found in this area of China? The alleged lineage aside that is. Could it possible that as Ie traveled to indonesia several of his techs were changed according to what he experienced? Once in bandung would it be possible to follow the immediate surrounding culture with respect to the school itself (uniforms, terminology, etc), in order to attract more students in that area? I am probably wrong here but to me it just seems reasonable. You folks have much more experience with MA than i do, and i do respect that (and envy you all), it just seems that while most of sins claims seem fantastic and not reliable, that he did learn something in bandung alongside Hiang who keeps the same curriculum aside from the Tai peng portion, and Sin may include those as well, idk. Just some ramblings from someone who has a habit of practicing strikes, stances, combos, hitting harder and harder objects, and going through home brewed Jow medicine as though it were skin lotion from bath and body. FWIWIMO any thoughts?

Yes and no. It's a Chinese-indies art. A Chinese community in Indonesia. Consider Ching yen and what we know about it---Liu us peng, tad djie, and whoever else taught there. What are their backgrounds and who taught what? We don't know precisely.--we have some generalities But technique wise, sd probably, IMO, has much Indonesian influence. Students also shape curricula. A guy versed in kuntao/Silat could have changed the school by challenging prevailing CMA perceptions. We know ggm ie was an opium addict and was coaxed out of addiction by his training brothers---who was in charge then? Certainly not ggm ie. so who knows how much influence there was?

So it doesn't matter what sd is, in a wAy. I don't care much anymore. I like drilling and techniques, and I'll study anything. But I don't want more forms. I just want better use of em.

Btw--proper understanding of sd, I think, comes from mastery of chinna. Your forms are all throwing and grabbing. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Lol. Unless he's really good

bodhi warrior

06-25-2014, 03:11 AM

Yes and no. It's a Chinese-indies art. A Chinese community in Indonesia. Consider Ching yen and what we know about it---Liu us peng, tad djie, and whoever else taught there. What are their backgrounds and who taught what? We don't know precisely.--we have some generalities But technique wise, sd probably, IMO, has much Indonesian influence. Students also shape curricula. A guy versed in kuntao/Silat could have changed the school by challenging prevailing CMA perceptions. We know ggm ie was an opium addict and was coaxed out of addiction by his training brothers---who was in charge then? Certainly not ggm ie. so who knows how much influence there was?

So it doesn't matter what sd is, in a wAy. I don't care much anymore. I like drilling and techniques, and I'll study anything. But I don't want more forms. I just want better use of em.

Btw--proper understanding of sd, I think, comes from mastery of chinna. Your forms are all throwing and grabbing. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Lol. Unless he's really good

Just curious if you ever learned any of the drunken immortals forms? If so, what are your thoughts?

Shaolin Wookie

06-25-2014, 11:34 AM

Just curious if you ever learned any of the drunken immortals forms? If so, what are your thoughts?

Yeah. I learned flexible, adaptive, spear, straight sword, and stomping--plus then non- 8 immortals crazy mad drunk. Can't remember parts of stomping and straight sword. Anyone have notes on those they're willing to share?

My thoughts? They're hard, but fun. Some good stuff, prob some bad--but I love drunken style, good or bad.

Seriously, though...notes, anyone? I learned stomping and Jian in a seminar---forgot some sequences b/c no notes were given. Ill pm u my email address.

bodhi warrior

06-25-2014, 05:13 PM

Yeah. I learned flexible, adaptive, spear, straight sword, and stomping--plus then non- 8 immortals crazy mad drunk. Can't remember parts of stomping and straight sword. Anyone have notes on those they're willing to share?

My thoughts? They're hard, but fun. Some good stuff, prob some bad--but I love drunken style, good or bad.

Seriously, though...notes, anyone? I learned stomping and Jian in a seminar---forgot some sequences b/c no notes were given. Ill pm u my email address.

I only know drunken broadsword, and mad drunk. I've seen some of the immortals forms and agree they do look difficult. But I'd love to try them.
It looks like Master Mullins has released a new DVD on some of conditioning aspects of the immortals. Might be worth a look.

shen ku

06-25-2014, 07:22 PM

I got the mullins dvd, its worth the money.

David Jamieson

06-26-2014, 01:55 PM

Shaolin Do is real Shaolin Do.

It's not real anything else.

Nor is it firetruck or camel and it's definitely not outer space. Only shaolin do is shaolin do...

Shaolin Wookie

06-30-2014, 06:26 AM

Shaolin Do is real Shaolin Do.

It's not real anything else.

Nor is it firetruck or camel and it's definitely not outer space. Only shaolin do is shaolin do...

But it's not just its own thing. Everyone who practices at brown belt level will recognize Jing Woo Jie Quan (see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Vw4d4pw-E)). There are differences in the form, but they follow the same general pattern. What most SD practitioners will see as a major difference, however, is that we have many "crossed hands" positions, like the hands/wrists are shackled and are being broken as the palms/arms open up for a sweep. Seems to me that what we practice is a blend of normal Jie Quan and Wu Song Qi Jie Quan (see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5iyRp35L7Y)). SD tends to see itself in other forms, since we have the same techniques, whether anyone else likes it or not. Now, more than likely they're cobbled-together forms (someone cobbled them together or changed them or made them up), but it doesn't erase the links we see in the forms. SD is SD, but we don't know what SD is---can't trust GM The', and he admitted to making some stuff up, creating Shaolin Do in teh 1970s for marketing purposes---and so it's not just itself. It was something before that, and something else after that point.

Shaolin Wookie

06-30-2014, 07:16 AM

Lian Wu Zhang has much more of the crossed/shackled hands, and is taught as a family of Jie Quan. It's not, in reality, as far as I have researched through Jing Woo contacts and students of Su Ke Gang that I've contacted. But in SD, the two are linked, and Lian Wu Zhang picked up some of the Wu Song "Chained hands" techniques.

hskwarrior

06-30-2014, 08:47 AM

Now, more than likely they're cobbled-together forms (someone cobbled them together or changed them or made them up), but it doesn't erase the links we see in the forms.

It's a simple thing to steal material then try to claim a relationship between the ones who authentically learned the material in comparison to those who stole it. its still WRONG

Shaolin Wookie

07-01-2014, 09:44 PM

It's a simple thing to steal material then try to claim a relationship between the ones who authentically learned the material in comparison to those who stole it. its still WRONG

"Authentically learn"?
"Stole" mental content or body postures? Lol. The only thing "wrong" is the fraud of calling an original form by an ancient name in order to sell it to students.

What is inauthentic learning? If you learn something--even astrology, hung gar, or phrenology--you learn it, and your learning is authentic. Is it any good? Different question. I've met many CMA guys who preach the gospel of never going to the ground, the utility of protective karate fat (muscles are so passé) and deadly eye pokes capable of stopping a RnC. They probably learned to talk that way. Either way, their learning isn't any good.

Some forms were copied, some weren't. Liu su peng taught 18 tai (roc) forms. I've only ever seen tai in hsing-I before. Both brothers teach the same core tai forms. I've seen 3 and practice the first 3 as a set. The structure of the tai forms is pretty much standard, and not far from the mechanics of sd's core stuff--the generic birds/cranes, for instance. Maybe Liu su peng is a myth, maybe not. I know some people who met him, though. Makes me think those are hallmarks of Chung yen shaolin in Bandung, but perhaps not "ancient" shaolin. If peng's tai style---which has a particularly non-standard-CMA feel to it is Ching yen, it'd explain why some of the The' bros material feels and looks different than, say, hua quan or 7* mantis.

Kymus

07-02-2014, 05:27 AM

The eye gouge is obsolete thanks to the mighty 3 Stooges

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/all-things-boats-and-boating/65226d1324410242-rapid-global-climate-shift-its-socio-economic-effects-eye_poke_defense.jpg

nautavac

07-02-2014, 05:21 PM

"Authentically learn"?
"Stole" mental content or body postures? Lol. The only thing "wrong" is the fraud of calling an original form by an ancient name in order to sell it to students.

What is inauthentic learning? If you learn something--even astrology, hung gar, or phrenology--you learn it, and your learning is authentic. Is it any good? Different question. I've met many CMA guys who preach the gospel of never going to the ground, the utility of protective karate fat (muscles are so passé) and deadly eye pokes capable of stopping a RnC. They probably learned to talk that way. Either way, their learning isn't any good.

Some forms were copied, some weren't. Liu su peng taught 18 tai (roc) forms. I've only ever seen tai in hsing-I before. Both brothers teach the same core tai forms. I've seen 3 and practice the first 3 as a set. The structure of the tai forms is pretty much standard, and not far from the mechanics of sd's core stuff--the generic birds/cranes, for instance. Maybe Liu su peng is a myth, maybe not. I know some people who met him, though. Makes me think those are hallmarks of Chung yen shaolin in Bandung, but perhaps not "ancient" shaolin. If peng's tai style---which has a particularly non-standard-CMA feel to it is Ching yen, it'd explain why some of the The' bros material feels and looks different than, say, hua quan or 7* mantis.

Tread Carefully! Liu su peng probably did not authentically learn anything either. :) can you think of any other hallmarks of Chung Yen Shaolin in Bandung? Would it be possible to get a picture of Liu Su Peng? The tai forms have always intrigued me.

nautavac

07-02-2014, 05:27 PM

"Authentically learn"?
"Stole" mental content or body postures? Lol. The only thing "wrong" is the fraud of calling an original form by an ancient name in order to sell it to students.

What is inauthentic learning? If you learn something--even astrology, hung gar, or phrenology--you learn it, and your learning is authentic. Is it any good? Different question. I've met many CMA guys who preach the gospel of never going to the ground, the utility of protective karate fat (muscles are so passé) and deadly eye pokes capable of stopping a RnC. They probably learned to talk that way. Either way, their learning isn't any good.

Some forms were copied, some weren't. Liu su peng taught 18 tai (roc) forms. I've only ever seen tai in hsing-I before. Both brothers teach the same core tai forms. I've seen 3 and practice the first 3 as a set. The structure of the tai forms is pretty much standard, and not far from the mechanics of sd's core stuff--the generic birds/cranes, for instance. Maybe Liu su peng is a myth, maybe not. I know some people who met him, though. Makes me think those are hallmarks of Chung yen shaolin in Bandung, but perhaps not "ancient" shaolin. If peng's tai style---which has a particularly non-standard-CMA feel to it is Ching yen, it'd explain why some of the The' bros material feels and looks different than, say, hua quan or 7* mantis.

In all honesty though, this is truly interesting. The structure of the tai forms is basically standard across schools, however different aspects of the techniques seem to get different emphases from one instructor to the other, and as you say not far from the mechanics of Sd's core stuff. Thank you.

OldandUsed

07-10-2014, 09:18 AM

Still going! Amazing. And I see HSK is still hanging around. :)

hskwarrior

07-10-2014, 09:29 AM

I got one eye on EVERYTHING

tattooedmonk

07-15-2014, 12:49 PM

Plain and simple.

Read Uncle Willem's new book...Journey Through Time. He indirectly substantiates many of SD and SKT's claims....

Frank, the only eye you have on everything is the big brown eye. How's your hardcore underground gung fu family Tong?!

Any questions or comments or discussions about SD and related art?!!

hskwarrior

07-15-2014, 01:21 PM

Frank, the only eye you have on everything is the big brown eye. How's your hardcore underground gung fu family Tong?!

it's always white guys like you that talk about brown eyes. you guys sure do like to hang around some *******s. LMAO

My gung fu family tong is doing just fine. you sound a little bitter

8859

Any questions or comments or discussions about SD and related art?!!

yes, how do you look at yourself in the mirror knowing that you practice "the art of Sin The" and not real gung fu? I guess cult mentality is hard to shake off huh?

MasterKiller

07-15-2014, 07:57 PM

I got my one eye on EVERYTHING

Fixed that for you.

8860

hskwarrior

07-15-2014, 08:16 PM

Lolololol.................

tattooedmonk

07-16-2014, 09:03 AM

Not at all , Frank. I find your argument and your rants to be entertaining, yet filled with nothing but BULLSH!T.

This whole thread is one big cluster **** that has no purpose other than being a train wreck. The few that are here to talk about SD come here every once in while, chat for a bit ,get some new bit of news or info and leave for another year or whatever.

Unlike you , you have all this free time to talk nonsense, why aren't you training??

All that matters is whether it is effective or useful to the practitioner, that's it. If it works for them, why do you care?? All this emphasis on the lineage, legends and lawsuits is all just drama and has nothing to do with what really matters. Only concepts and principles....

You are putting your nose in business that isn't yours, and quite frankly, I don't care what you say , its all just noise until you start educating yourself and smarting up , boy.

You make too many assumptions, have zero credibility and have zero facts to substantiate anything you say , just words . You don't know anything outside of your circle of knowledge , which is very limited.

Have you studied SD , Kuntao or any other martial art besides your super secret underground tong CLF?? I am not talking about just moves or a couple of classes , I mean read the books , talk to the teachers , etc?? I know you haven't and you can barely do CLF... you believe to much of your own BS, how are you any different than the people you suppose we all are??

You don't know me or anyone else here, this is just a place for you to troll. that's fine, but its beyond old. by now you could have got some schooling in and made something of yourself here instead of a horses @$$. go buy a couple of books by some reputable authors and then come back and talk to us. Until then , I do not have anything left to say to you....except, grow up.

hskwarrior

07-16-2014, 10:39 AM

Not at all , Frank. I find your argument and your rants to be entertaining, yet filled with nothing but BULLSH!T.

OH COOL, YOU CAN RELATE THEN SINCE WHAT YOU THIEVES PRACTICE IS STOLEN AND REGURGITATED POO POO. NICE! CHIP CHIP CHERIOOS.

Have you studied SD , Kuntao or any other martial art besides your super secret underground tong CLF??

****, JEALOUSY REALLY DOES SUCK, HUH?

Unlike you , you have all this free time to talk nonsense, why aren't you training??

IT ONLY TOOK ME A FEW SECONDS TO TYPE WHAT I DID, YOU....IT TOOK ALL NIGHT. lmao I TYPED THIS AS I WAS PRACTICING MY SECRET TONG CLF HORSE STANCES. :D

THE INSTANT YOUR BS OF A STYLE STOLE MY LINEAGES 5 ANIMAL FORM, IT WAS OPEN SEASON ON YOU VERMIN.

You make too many assumptions, have zero credibility and have zero facts to substantiate anything you say , just words . You don't know anything outside of your circle of knowledge , which is very limited.

YEAH? YEAH? SO! SO! WHAT ABOUT THEM SHOE'S YOU'RE WEARING?

Have you studied SD , Kuntao or any other martial art besides your super secret underground tong CLF?? I am not talking about just moves or a couple of classes , I mean read the books , talk to the teachers , etc?? I know you haven't and you can barely do CLF... you believe to much of your own BS, how are you any different than the people you suppose we all are??

IS THIS SOME TYPE OF DRILL YOU'RE PRACTICING FROM SOME BOOK YOU READ? I MEAN, BOOKS AND VIDEO IS THE TRUE SOURCE TO THE GARBAGE YOU PRACTICE. HAIRY MONKEY MONKS......LMAO TWIN MONKEY BEAKS!!!! LMAO......I LOVE THIS ****

You don't know me or anyone else here, this is just a place for you to troll. that's fine, but its beyond old. by now you could have got some schooling in and made something of yourself here instead of a horses @$$. go buy a couple of books by some reputable authors and then come back and talk to us. Until then , I do not have anything left to say to you....except, grow up.

I UNDERSTAND, THE BITTERNESS OF KNOWING YOU ARE A CULT MEMBER WHOSE LEADER LIED TO YOU PROFUSELY IS A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW. BUT HEY, YOU CHOSE TO LAY IN THAT BED. NOT ME. lmaO

hskwarrior

Lolololol.................

HAHAHAH SUCKS TO BE YOU, DOESN'T IT?

hskwarrior

07-16-2014, 11:16 AM

"Yuen Hai (aka Yuen Fook) native of San Woi, Kwangtung province, was nicknamed Yuen Dai because he was the first son of his family (Dai means elderly). He learned Choy Li Fut Kung Fu directly from the headquarters of Hung Sing Studio in Fut San from Jeong Yim . After Jeong Yim passed away, his senior kung fu brother Chan Ngau Sing took over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San, he became an assistant instructor in the Hung Sing Studio. After few years went by, Chan Ngau Sing suggested that he go to another part of Kwangtung province to promote Choy Li Fut. Finally he decided to go to Toi San (modern day Tai Shan) to teach the Fut San lineage of Choy Li Fut.

In Toi San, he taught in different nearby villages in the family clan temples. One day he met a lady from a foreign province. This lady was also a high level Shaolin Five Animal Kung Fu master from Fukin Province (modern day Fujian). Because Yuen Hai's first wife died many years earlier, he and his son lived together in Toi San. His son also assisted him in teaching classes for the villagers. He finally decided to take the Fukinese lady to be his second wife. One day Yuen Hai's son had an argument with his stepmother, he threw a front kick at her. The stepmother grabbed his leg with a Dragon Claw technique pulled and threw him off across the room. Unfortunately, Yuan Hai's only son ended up handicapped for the rest of his life.

Because his name was so famous in Toi San, one of the rich overseas Toi-Sanese businessmen from Indonesia came back to Toi San to hire him to be his bodyguard and took him back to Indonesia to work for him. After the contract completed Yuan Hai return to Toi San. At that time, he gave private lessons to the rich families whose fathers were in the United States of America. Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong's first Choy Li Fut teacher Lau Bun's father was in California. Lau Bun's family had money to hire Yuan Hai to give private instructions to Lau Bun. Because of Lau Bun's diligent training and because he treated his teacher's family so well, his Si-mo, Mrs. Yuan taught him the Shaolin Five Animal Form. After Yuan Hai died, Lau Bun became his successor in Toi San." – from White Lions of Shaolin

The above highlighted areas are incorrect. read my book and find out the true story.

hskwarrior

07-16-2014, 11:42 AM

its not completed yet.

tattooedmonk

07-17-2014, 08:51 AM

Hahaahhahaha

hskwarrior

07-17-2014, 09:19 AM

Hahaahhahaha

That's my reaction right there everytime i see shaolin DOH perform......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

hskwarrior

07-17-2014, 09:25 AM

in regards to your posting someone's incorrect information about my lineage,I'll touch on one part of it so you know that I am telling truth.

After Jeong Yim passed away, his senior kung fu brother Chan Ngau Sing took over the Hung Sing Studio in Fut San

Yes, Chan Ngau Sing "WAS" the first inheritor of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. No issues there.
However, Yuen Hai was with Cheung Hung Sing in the 1850's and Chan Ngau Sing joined the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in 1884.
I'm pretty confident you can do the math yourself and see who the REAL senior student was in regards to these two people.

tattooedmonk

07-18-2014, 11:39 AM

Grandmasters Leo Fong and Tadashi Yama****a are doing a joint seminar in Chatsworth Ca. from 1-5 pm. If you are interested , let me know. Thanks.

Also, next month will be the annual visit of Master Michael Reid in Denver, Colorado... for more info you can contact me or the host " KungFuJunky" or @ his studio - Dragon Hand Martial Arts- in Littleton, Colorado.

Sifu Mark Wright
Shaolin Martial Arts Center
www.thewayofshaolin.com
mark @thewayofshaolin.com
818-715-9048

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 07:42 AM

This is fine, and I'm sure you have the research to back it up…but it really is of no interest to me. The thing that caught my eye was the statement that Lau Bun's teacher, Yuen Hai had spent some time in Indonesia. Whether true or not I don't know just found it interesting.

LMAO you fell for some bull**** just like you did at Shaolin Do. I have a BEAUTIFUL ex girlfriend from Bandung.....THAT was very interesting.

tattooedmonk

07-21-2014, 09:59 AM

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 11:06 AM

No point in feeding the trolls....I found it interesting as well. Many of the old forms and styles left China a long time ago and have been preserved and modified in the Malay archipelago. Read Uncle Willem De Thour's book, it will shed light on your practice.

STFU you satan worshippin fool......cut your hair twisted sister. of course you'd find someone untrue interesting. look at the fake hairy shaolin monk who was really a circus attraction. yet you try to find a glimmer of hope in all those lies.

bodhi warrior

07-21-2014, 02:50 PM

1. Yuen Hai taught Lau Bun
2. Yuen Hai's wife taught Lau Bun 5 Animals
3. Yuen Hai spent time in Indonesia

Do you see where this is going?

I've believed Sin The' learned the 5 animal form from doc Fai wong's book. Primarily based on the release date of the book and when Sin The' taught the form. Both around 1990.
But this little tidbit does open the door to speculation.

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 02:53 PM

3. Yuen Hai spent time in Indonesia

what part didn't you get? Yuen Hai NEVER went to indonesia. He was the right hand man for Cheung Hung Sing and stayed at his side until his teachers death.

so you've been proven wrong on #3. So, the fact that Yuen Hai never went to indonesia can no longer be interesting to you cause he was never there.

You're trusting information that comes from a student of Doc Fai Wong, who, once claimed in his book that the Green Grass Monk was just a myth then retracted his comment and claimed he learned the true identity of the Green Grass Monk and that it was the Monk Choy Fook, Chan Heung's third teacher. But book will prove that ridiculousness wrong as i know monk choy fook is not the green grass monk. so if you want to believe doc fai wong's incorrect account of his own grand master go right ahead. Go on and play with the idea that yuen hai was in indonesia even though it is a lie. my comments here mark the fact that i am saying its a lie.

tattooedmonk

07-21-2014, 03:39 PM

1. Yuen Hai taught Lau Bun
2. Yuen Hai's wife taught Lau Bun 5 Animals
3. Yuen Hai spent time in Indonesia

Do you see where this is going?

There is obviously a difference of opinion on the facts. Doc Fai Wong is a reputable source for most things. He is an author, producer of kung fu videos, teaches world wide and has thousands of students.... You be the judge. I do wonder if Yuen Hai went to Indonesia, it's possible. And highly probable.

tattooedmonk

07-21-2014, 03:42 PM

I've believed Sin The' learned the 5 animal form from doc Fai wong's book. Primarily based on the release date of the book and when Sin The' taught the form. Both around 1990.
But this little tidbit does open the door to speculation. It's possible he got it from a book. Even that book. But there are certain questions that should and haven't been answered.....

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 03:48 PM

There is obviously a difference of opinion on the facts. Doc Fai Wong is a reputable source for most things. He is an author, producer of kung fu videos, teaches world wide and has thousands of students.... You be the judge. I do wonder if Yuen Hai went to Indonesia, it's possible. And highly probable.

LMAO. keep wondering wonder boy. it's just as probable as the monkey circus attraction shaolin monk.

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 03:52 PM

It's possible he got it from a book. Even that book. But there are certain questions that should and haven't been answered.....
when you become relevant to the Choy Lee Fut system you'd get answers. but you're not. so you won't. Plus I'm going to trust DFW's SENIOR classmate (My Grand Master) before i believe him.

the only truth is SIN THE learned our form from the book. plain and simple. Dragon grabs the rainbow and all. hahaha.

bodhi warrior

07-21-2014, 04:23 PM

It's possible he got it from a book. Even that book. But there are certain questions that should and haven't been answered.....

I always try to keep an open mind. And would love to be wrong on this. What questions were you thinking?

bawang

07-21-2014, 05:13 PM

we are harsh on shaolin do people.

kung fu is so infignificant in america, nobody had ever cared or will care if they claim to be shaolin. and they themselves dont understand the reason why its wrong. shaolin is just a far away fairy tale. what matters to them is that they lost weight and made friends.

shaolin do is the purest heart of american kung fu, stripped away of all formalities and political correctness. its the ultimate fantasy power trip. kung fu people are ashamed of shaolin do because it reminds them of themselves. the only difference is their form and lineage is "authentic".

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 05:35 PM

and they themselves dont understand the reason why its wrong

that's what i don't get. regardless of how many people telling them how wrong it is, it completely misses them. maybe its because they see it as a cash cow and don't really care.
but it's a **** shame they choose to remain ignorant of the truth set before them.

tattooedmonk

07-21-2014, 05:36 PM

I always try to keep an open mind. And would love to be wrong on this. What questions were you thinking?
I would like to know either way, it won't change the fact that I know the form , can teach the form and perform the form without any problems. It has many martial, medicinal and meditative benefits. No one is going to change that.

tattooedmonk

07-21-2014, 05:43 PM

Do you study Chinese martial arts ( kung fu) from Indonesia; Kuntao or Silat?!? Do you know anything about the Malay culture and how they live?!?

Have you done any research or read any books on the subject?! Yes or no questions that should be easy to answer without any ego or drama.

Please answer honestly and appropriately. I will not respond to any other nonsense.

bawang

07-21-2014, 05:45 PM

that's what i don't get. regardless of how many people telling them how wrong it is, it completely misses them. maybe its because they see it as a cash cow and don't really care.
but it's a **** shame they choose to remain ignorant of the truth set before them.

shaolin do reminds me of black hebrew israelites. ever see them at chinatown?

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 05:54 PM

I would like to know either way, it won't change the fact that I know the form , can teach the form and perform the form without any problems. It has many martial, medicinal and meditative benefits. No one is going to change that.

i would stake my life on the fact that you truly do not demonstrate the form as it is supposed to be done. of this i'm extremely confident. stolen form or not. you learned DOC FAI WONG's BOOK VERSION of the true form along with SIN THE's attempts to disguise it.. YOU don't know the form!

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 05:55 PM

shaolin do reminds me of black hebrew israelites. ever see them at chinatown?

not in CT but i see the video's of them in NY. yeah i agree, shaolin do falls in like with black isrealites.

bawang

07-21-2014, 06:18 PM

not in CT but i see the video's of them in NY. yeah i agree, shaolin do falls in like with black isrealites.
like all cults, its about what they feel. shaolin do elicits a feeling they as kentucky hillbillies never experienced.

hskwarrior

07-21-2014, 07:09 PM

Lmao.]....................

hskwarrior

07-22-2014, 07:25 AM

shaolin do reminds me of black hebrew israelites. ever see them at chinatown?
Am I wrong that a poster on this forum a couple of years ago was banned for racist remarks?

are you stupid? there was no RACIST remarks. he compared you shaolin do cult members to another cult called "BLACK ISREALITES". if you don't know what they are there's this thing called YOUTUBE where you can educate yourself on what a "BLACK ISREALITE" is. in fact i'll provide you within one then you can follow that lead..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wGWTWXjodU

hskwarrior

07-22-2014, 08:19 AM

Now as to the stupid remark, I have never made any kind of personal attack on anyone on this or any other forum.

my bad. i should have used something else. i give you that. But Shrimp Boy outshines you and anyone you personally know even while he's behind bars. It's your own insecurity that you have to mention Shrimp Boy. You Probably hate watching him on tv in his documentaries. Not me. I'm proud of Shrimp Boy since i am one of the very few he trusts. so any attempts at attacking a man like shrimp boy reflects your internal paradigm.

tattooedmonk

07-22-2014, 10:03 AM

In that case, I'm glad that I didn't say what would have been a very nasty comment. As to Shrimp Boy, I know absolutely nothing about him other than what little I've read here and I have no interest in him at all. I only mentioned him to show you how weak your personal attacks make your arguments. I wish the best for you, Shrimp Boy, and all of the other posters on these forums whether we agree or not but we would all benefit if the personal attacks could be dispensed with. You mean things like: Satan worshiper and get your hair cut and the like?!Like I said before , don't feed the trolls.😋 As you can see we can't get any intelligent or educated conversations going with the people that are here. Back to training.

bawang

07-22-2014, 10:07 AM

No, I don't think so, however this group is one that I'm not familiar with.

well, now you have learned something new. i do not blame you and your billy hilly ways.

You mean things like: Satan worshiper and get your hair cut and the like?!Like I said before , don't feed the trolls.�� As you can see we can't get any intelligent or educated conversations going with the people that are here. Back to training.

but in the back of your billy hilly mind, you still hunger for the true shaolin.

hskwarrior

07-22-2014, 11:49 AM

ou mean things like: Satan worshiper and get your hair cut

you outdated dinosaur! hahahahahahahaha

bawang

07-22-2014, 12:01 PM

tattooedmonk

07-22-2014, 02:12 PM

Yes, I have learned something. I try to learn at every opportunity you should try it sometime.
By the way, calling me a Hillbilly is not an insult all true Hillbillies are very proud of who and what we are.
I won't try to discuss anything with you but I just want to let you know that you have my pity. Based on your consistently vulgar and racist posts you have proven yourself to truly be the "Sick Man of Asia" (that is assuming that you really are Chinese, personally I think you're a weak little snot nosed, pimply faced white boy afraid to get out of your momma's house and live in the real world so your whole existence is your computer screen and your strong momma.
Again, I PITY YOU! That's why I don't get offended when someone calls me "Cracker!" Haha... If the mods cared anything about the reputation of this forum, magazine, or anything else guys like this wouldn't be allowed here. And on the streets they would get their @$$es kicked and probably brought up on charges. What do you expect from keyboard warriors with big mouths and little brains. I tried with these trolls too, doesn't make a bit of difference, ever. You can't have intellegant conversations with "people" that lack intelligence. They are stuck in their jr high school bully mentality and have serious mommy daddy issues. As for their martial arts skills and knowledge.... Please.

bawang

07-22-2014, 02:18 PM

That's why I don't get offended when someone calls me "Cracker!" Haha... If the mods cared anything about the reputation of this forum, magazine, or anything else guys like this wouldn't be allowed here. And on the streets they would get their @$$es kicked and probably brought up on charges. What do you expect from keyboard warriors with big mouths and little brains. I tried with these trolls too, doesn't make a bit of difference, ever. You can't have intellegant conversations with "people" that lack intelligence. They are stuck in their jr high school bully mentality and have serious mommy daddy issues. As for their martial arts skills and knowledge.... Please.

shaolin do is pretty racist. its all stereotypes.

GeneChing

07-22-2014, 03:25 PM

If the mods cared anything about the reputation of this forum, magazine, or anything else guys like this wouldn't be allowed here. I've always been amused by this argument. It's like standing inside a bar and saying "This is a dump. Only scum come here. If only they cleaned it up it could be a proper respectable establishment." You can say that standing outside of a bar. But if you're standing inside the bar, who's the scum you are talking about exactly? :rolleyes:

tattooedmonk

07-22-2014, 06:06 PM

I've always been amused by this argument. It's like standing inside a bar and saying "This is a dump. Only scum come here. If only they cleaned it up it could be a proper respectable establishment." You can say that standing outside of a bar. But if you're standing inside the bar, who's the scum you are talking about exactly? :rolleyes:
Thank you for your response. I would never say something like that personally. I am the type of person that would jump in with both hands and feet and ask, what can I do to help clean this place up and or fix it? I have done my part.

The only reason I have kept coming back here , Gene, is loyalty. To your magazine and all things connected to it. I have supported it because I believed in it. Even linked from my website to yours. Bought your products .

I had hoped beyond all hope that this place was a little bit better than this. I don't think your organization needs to sell magazines or keep people coming here that badly.

If you don't see where their behavior is abusive , unacceptable and counter productive to what we do and aren't willing to do anything, then I don't have anything else to say...

Except this, save the petty insults. It's not funny and it's certainly childish. Now I know why people don't come here anymore.

It's not my forum. Later

bawang

07-22-2014, 06:48 PM

i just want to be convinced that shaolin do is the real shaolin. i want to b leaf

OldandUsed

07-24-2014, 09:36 AM

OldandUsed

07-24-2014, 09:47 AM

MasterKiller

07-28-2014, 08:41 PM

Wasn't TattooedMonk supposed to post some Shaolin Ground Fighting videos...?

Shaolin Wookie

08-17-2014, 08:36 PM

bodhi warrior

08-26-2014, 12:44 PM

I happened across this old photo of Chi Xiau Fou and some of his students and I thought some of the members here might like to see it too.

Looks a lot like Ie chang Ming.

pazman

08-26-2014, 08:44 PM

That brick wall shirt is pretty cool.

Old Man

08-27-2014, 04:49 PM

Hahahaha! Pathetic!

http://youtu.be/ss6NTzhTc2U

RJ797

08-28-2014, 07:17 AM

Saw that years ago and had forgotten how awful the Tai Chi was. Later in the clip I think there was some Mantis or something. I had to turn it off before the Tai Chi finished.

The Shaolin-Do folks under Bill Leonard and the Soards actually do Tai Chi just like this clip and believe it's good because that's how Sin The taught it.

bodhi warrior

08-28-2014, 08:10 AM

RJ797

08-28-2014, 10:01 AM

I do not think there is any substantial difference between what the brothers teach regarding Mantis and Tai Chi.

OldandUsed

09-25-2014, 08:41 AM

I always felt Hiang had been form and extension, not as stiff.

bodhi warrior

09-25-2014, 12:54 PM

I always felt Hiang had been form and extension, not as stiff.

Mantis or tai chi?

OldandUsed

10-01-2014, 09:17 AM

Sorry, not in here that often.

Actually, I appreciated what Hiang did in all categoies more than what I saw from Sin. Just my opinion. Back when Hiang first came over was about the best, but I much preferred his classes to those of Sin.

hskwarrior

10-25-2014, 02:52 PM

ahhhhhhh ****! shaolin do has made it to san francisco!!!!!

nautavac

10-25-2014, 08:45 PM

ahhhhhhh ****! shaolin do has made it to san francisco!!!!!

Well HSK, here is your chance. Go see what SD is all about for yourself.

hskwarrior

10-25-2014, 10:52 PM

beat you to the punch. I was on my way to a Lion Dance when i saw these karate gi's with the words Shaolin on the back. I flipped a u turn and rolled right up on them. When i noticed who was the teacher i stepped to him and said "you're shaolin do, right?" he said yes. amongst some other things. then i looked in his face and said "I'm sifu frank, the one who's been trash talking shaolin do". we had a conversation and eventually made friends. he even came and watched our lion dance and even took a few pics of it for us. he invited us to come on in and spar.....and we will be doing that asap. the guy was a nice guy.

MasterKiller

10-26-2014, 01:55 PM

Frank sounds like he got a new boyfriend. lol

hskwarrior

10-26-2014, 01:58 PM

hey b1tch don't be jealous! hahaha
rump ranger

kwaichang

10-27-2014, 07:38 PM

How is all good I hope any new news?

ShaolinDough

10-31-2014, 02:02 AM

How is all good I hope any new news?

Well....Well...Well... So, I made into this epic thread! Gather around the campfire, for I have a tale to tell. I am, the nice "Shaolin Do" teacher in San Francisco as mentioned above. I have been teaching professionally in SF for 5 years now. This should get interesting, because I am not sure who hates me more, the CSC's? Or, the usual Shaolin Do haters? But, lets get a few facts straight here people. First, I am a FORMER teacher of the CSC's, I left and was thrown into legal threats. Second, I am not from Shaolin Do, I originally came from the Denver CSC (although, they are both horrible in my view), but may as well straighten that out now since there are some differences. And third, hskwarrior has every right to be questioning Jake and SD on the form; and on top of it, hes a great guy! For the record to the SD people, I have hardly met anyone from Shaolin Do on the east coast/south; but, I will say that Master Gary Mullins and Master John Keller are ABSOLUTE inspirations, and great martial artists that I would never want to cross. I have yet to meet a sifu or master from any style that can hold themselves to Gary Mullins standard, especially in consideration of age. The man is a beast in his training, and a true professional. My hat is tipped. I wish I lived closer so I could train with him more...Gotta give credit, where credit is due.

I will give you some background, and then my insiders opinion on all of this, and also hopefully clear up this ridiculous thread. For those that just want to see if I actually opened up a spar session, you have to read the rest to get to the good stuff. On top of it, I actually have gone out and tested some these other more 'traditional' arts, and found some interesting things both good and bad...On the big thread topics, YES I know, and have trained with Jake; I was there through the whole decision on the lawsuit; I trained directly under the Soards, and I even sat in the courtroom for David's hearing.

Now, for you quiet lurkers on the west coast (Denver to California) (and yes, I know you quietly watch this thread), if you have been within the CSC's over the last 10 years; you know me. I have likely visited your school, trained, sparred or travelled with you at some point before you stopped being my friend for leaving. For those that do not know me, I found the CSC in Denver while attending college, began training, eventually started assisting, and finally teaching when I moved to SF.

I had zero money when I came to SF. So, I started in Sutro Heights park where I had a few students, and then immediately started renting a multi-purpose wellness center a few nights on the border of Chinatown where I managed to get more students. That space was ran by another Sifu from Tat Wong's school, and eventually they went out of business. I was able to secure a full-time commercial space across the street with the Kwan Family, in conjunction with the local Kwang Kung Temple directly above us. And NO, it was not money based. They told me NO for 4 months straight, until I finally had a translator. We sat down for dumplings, talked at length with the entire family, and were finally accepted to lease. This will likely mean nothing to most of you, but for hskwarrior and anyone from Chinatown SF; you KNOW that feeling when you are accepted into this community, it was a big deal for me. Now, dont get all huffy, call me a McDojo and think I am raking in millions on the good name of kung fu... I make ZERO money, I dont teach kids, and do not participate in tournaments. Any money goes directly back into the school, and I run it as a co-op. Anyways, this is about the time when it all changed for me. Enter...The lawsuit.

I was unhappy with the training from the CSC's, at higher-levels...It just got bad for me. Nothing but more form's/choreography, story time and half-truth's. I would spend hundreds to travel and train, only to be entirely under-whelmed. On top of it, the business model was bad, the overall quality and martial ability had declined, and there was a culty feel. I decided to leave... Along with a few others and all of us were promptly served with a cease/desist letter and threat of an impending law-suit which just dragged out over a year, costing money, time and lost old-friends.

During this time, I felt so burned; I was on a mission to learn the "real stuff". I tried (and still do) to train with as many high-level (sifu level+) in any art possible. My interest was in internal, so I went to NYC and spent a few days with William CC Chen, Gordon Feng (Zheng Man Qing), (Fu Zhong Wen Disciple), met with Marilyn Cooper, Ben Lo disciples (Zheng Man Qing), Hung Gar Sifu's, and a TON of park-meet ups for sparring and push hands (bay area offers a lot of push hands meet-ups), and I train Russian Systema on the Alameda Naval Base when I can. My friend, a teacher who was also sued from the CSC's; took to Waysun Liao, Richard Clear, and a few others. Personally, I stuck with a senior Ben Lo teacher (name not important) for Taiji, and mostly focused on Xing Yi for the last 2-3 years. Anyway, Here is what I found:

Shaolin Do's internal is totally amatuer and wrong in my opinion, completely off on almost every level. I am not just talking choreography, but the intent, energy, reason for the movements (not applications), lack of translation and understanding of terms, posture and missed understanding of principles and practice... Ugh. It was starting from ground zero, and I ate bitter the first time I pushed with William Chen's students. There is another former Shaolin Do teacher here in the bay area that is a closed door student with Jerry Alan Johnson for Bagua, and found the same analysis. The Yang 37 form SD has, is obviously a stripped down version taken from Zheng Man Qing, without a doubt. Whether Master Sin actually learned it somewhere... I will never know, but it certainly was not in Indonesia considering the timing of Zheng Man Qing and his students; plus, there are major errors all over their version of the form in consideration to the original intent.

Shaolin Do's external material, not bad! I would say the conditioning level and material itself held stronger than most when confronted in sparring against other senior level people. Even some of those hard-core traditionalists seemed impressed... After a brief demo, or trade of hands; I would tell my experience and they would say "NO! You do kung fu! Jake Mace doesn't"! But Alas, we came from the same beginning! BUT, as I always say, it really does come down to the student. I stand by the lower material (I even said it hskwarrior!), the beginning years (white-2nd black) has GOOD material, if you train it right. Past that is when it gets sketchy for me...

Master Sin learned Chinese Martial Arts while in Indonesia, it may be colored with other influences; but we all know there were Chinese Masters present at his school. The material everyone blames him for 'creating', is actual longer material he had cut-down from longer forms to make the lower belts more graspable to beginners, and from a teachers perspective; thats fine. He cut out the repetitions and made it more efficient. Zheng Man Qing did the exact same thing with the original Yang Family Form. If he actually created that stuff from thin-air, then he is a genius. Past 2nd black, when there are random system forms thrown in for testing...That is where I lose all interest, and have no clue where they came from.

Now, for the Choy Li Fut/5 Animal form. That **** belongs to the Choy Li Fut system, Lau Bun lineage, and should really only be taught by them and Doc Fai Wong. The version SD has is a PUBLIC version, there are postures and intentions removed, and they can tell because it is THEIR form/system. This is a common in tactic in CMA? Why is everyone surprised? Just like any Ben Lo student would say the same thing about SD's version of the 37 Yang Form! I have talked to hsk nd Sifu Kuttel (Doc Fai Wong) about this until I just wanted to shoot myself. SD and Jake, you have a public version of ONE Choy Li Fut form... It does not mean you know the entire system, or own that form; just like the 37 Yang, and a host of others. When I first met my current Taiji/Xing Yi teacher, he said, well... You have A version, but its not THE version for Zheng Taiji and Hebei Xing Yi; before giving a complete explanation of why it matters and then making me feel like a total beginner again. Same with Tiger/Crane...That is an obscure village version; nothing close to the Hung Gar Tiger/Crane from Wong Fei Hung as known today, and again... It is only ONE form, claiming you know Hung Gar would be absurd.

CONTINUED......>

ShaolinDough

10-31-2014, 02:04 AM

Jake Mace... Where do I begin? It seems every kung fu person hates him; yet no one will actually go meet him in person to push/spar. In my experience, Jake is EXACTLY like how he is on camera. A blissed out little chi bunny! He is a super nice guy, not a fighter, and better conditioned than most. Thats it. He got burned by the whole system as well, and decided to do things his way to try and make a living after going bankrupt with legal fees. He rebounded in a major way, but clearly has lost some integrity from the martial arts world. I know... I know... I feel the same way as all of you; but I just care way, way, less. I have nothing against the guy aside from not liking the cheesy, and wrong videos he posts.

Me, ah! Thanks for inquiring. I am OK! I train with my super secret Ben Lo senior student in Xing Yi primarily now, and enjoy Systema. I hold a monthly friendly open mat/spar/push at my school, and all are welcome, yet only a few actually show up (yes, I invited hskwarrior? Why is that a big deal?). Although I train with specific teachers, I claim NO lineage (although I give respect where it is due). Otherwise, lineage can be a pair of handcuffs in most cases, and in most ways. Master Sin? I respect him, but I think he has lost his way a few times... We are on good terms and I support him. My school? I still use some SD curriculum, but it has changed so much with other training. Uniforms? Two people in 5 years of SF Chinatown training have given me **** for the gi: hskwarrior, and Al Lai (from Brendan Lai). BUT, I hear you... Changes are on the way my friends, it just takes time and money. Be water and such.

I respect hskwarrior for what he and his lineage do, I like the way they keep it real and represent the hometown. I could care less about lineage, but I do enjoy the brotherhood of like minded martial artists that are doing their part to keep kung fu from becoming a kiddie-nickelodeon product, and as long as your common nemesis is wushu, and the fake-monks; then its all good to me. I should mention the culture and people of Chinatown SF...It really is impactful and beautiful, Hung Sing is at the forefront of this community in many ways and that warrants some respect and the right to call out any BS slung against their lineage.

It feels good be thrown into this historic thread. But, now leave me alone lol. Love and peace everyone!

-Shaolin Dough

ShaolinDough

10-31-2014, 02:14 AM

Why is all my cursing blocked out? Come on Gene! Only REAL kung fu people curse. ****!

hskwarrior

10-31-2014, 02:11 PM

it is the way it is!

ShaolinDough

10-31-2014, 10:37 PM

it is the way it is!

Im back logging right now... I have missed much of this! And it is some entertaining stuff! Monkey Beaks is probably the best thing I have heard in a while. Pure gold. HSK, you should copyright it...#MONKEYBEAKS! Jake definitely made that one up himself.

brucereiter

11-01-2014, 10:25 AM

Hi shaolindough,

It seems like we have some parralells in our csc training (I am from atlanta).
You said focus on tai chi chuan and hsing I, those are 2 things I have spent a bit of time studying.
Do you have any practice videos of your version of "yang 64" tai chi chuan or hsing I "roads" or "linking forms?
I am curious how various csc/sd peoples ima has evolved from what was originally taught at csc/sd, my material had changed a lot over the years.

Here is a video of some recent Hsingi form practice.
http://youtu.be/POzkFUNLYVY

And some recent tai chi chuan form practice
http://youtu.be/7N3pRVikCco
http://youtu.be/UQNNJabGDbU

ShaolinDough

11-01-2014, 03:41 PM

Hi Bruce,

Nice to meet ya, I dont know anyone from ATL except Sifu Augustin, he came through SF once; and is another really talented martial artists. Out of everyone that has travelled through our school, we always say he was one of the best. Great guy too. Anyhow, I dont have any videos up of myself, but I should have some soon for a 2015 workshop I am doing here in Marin and will share those. For the Taji/Xing Yi, my choreography is nothing that is not already out there from a Guo Yunshen and Zheng lineage, and I defer to any video of Zheng Man Qing or Ben Lo for Taiji who are the real masters to watch for that stuff anyway. Mine will be EXACTLY the same (only not as good). Same with Xing Yi, any Hebei style youtube people out there all have the same choreography, and come up with a million applications, it is just done to death by hundreds of people these days. BUT, it really isn't the choreography the counts for me in these arts anyway. For Xing Yi, the constant reference point to achieve across most major lineages is 'Ming', 'An', and 'Hua" Jing. My CSC experience never even began to talk about this, let alone understand how to train for it. Same with Taiji, and 'Peng', etc. That was the point-of-no return for me. They had no idea what they are talking about. Once I found a teacher that could deep-dive into all of that, and answer questions, all the postures changed to train these very specific expressions, and it all made sense. Every posture is absolutely precision-tuned to train this. After 7 years, there was not even a mention past the catch phrase "Fa Jing", and even that was diluted to..."Just feel the chi man!" And, to HSK's point, they added in this weird relaxed 'shaking' at the end of every posture, physically imitating what they presumed the masters of old were describing.

But, if you literally practice the principals mentioned; the postures HAVE to change from the CSC version in order to meet the teachings from Yang Lu Tang, Guo Yunshen alone.... No double-weightedness (literally), Sung (relaxed NOT collapsed), The Kua (never even mentioned in my CSC experience), Spine straight, hips tucked, etc. etc. That is why it is so easy for IMA people to take one look at Jake and CSC/SD people and know immediately they only have imitated choreography. I assume its the same regard for other stylists like HSKWarrior's frustration, when they see their forms done with error. Anyways, my original Yang form had a literal 50-50 horse stance in it, same with Bagua, Xing Yi was originally front weighted, etc... It all ended up like poorly done Karate. I believe there push hands version was another stage of complete mis-understanding, but I digress.

To each there own, but in the IMA world; these little things make a massive difference. In the external/hard method I dont care as much, just choreography, conditioning and application differences; I already gave my kudos to SD/CSC for having a good core curriculum for that (white-1st black). But for IMA, not even close.

Nice videos, keep up the good work!

brucereiter

11-01-2014, 04:47 PM

Augie is a cool dude and a fantastic martial artist, I am always inspired by his work ethic.
He is possibly the best from our atl group and keeps very humble.

I don't think you can practice tai chi chuan with out understanding peng.

The kua was never spoken about to me from the csc. I learned about the" inguinal fold" and how it relates to self defense from outside the system.

Distance, leverage, timing, Spine straight, hips tucked, shoulders relaxed, head straight, chin tucked and transfer of weight etc etc etc were constantly taught but most people did not listen or understand.

The push hands we learned in atlanta I thought was very good but most people were missing the "engine" they had a car with no power...

I visited csc Denver in the early 2000's and was very excited to see and feel what they did, I got to compare forms and push hands with a 4th black and several black belts. I was shocked at how bad it was and at how good they thought they were. Lots of delusion and hero worship.

The engine is what matters not the choreography. The way of developing/using power is missing from csc/sd.

bodhi warrior

11-02-2014, 07:00 AM

I agree with much of what you said. The core material unique to Sin and Hiang is great material. I love it, and practice it everyday. It's practical and great for conditioning.
I love bagua and tai ji. Of all the people I've met and seen in SD, very few seem to have any understanding of what makes these arts work.
Sin The' should've stayed with what he knew. I mean, why isn't he teaching his golden snake? Hiang has taught out his Tai Peng system. Instead, he's learning forms from either YouTube or DVDs and charging people over a $100 to learn it from him. I've seen the source material where he got the last 2 drunken immortals and 10,000 lotus blooming.
It's my opinion he ran out of material learned in Indonesia around 1990. Since then he's been learning from books, VHS, DVDs. The 5 animal form is another example.
To the SD people out there...your core material is legit. It's unique and very usable. All this new stuff is stolen. Plain and simple.

beng

11-02-2014, 08:31 AM

I am not sure Bruce and shaolindough are talking about the same CSC? Just a question.

brucereiter

11-02-2014, 03:08 PM

I am not sure Bruce and shaolindough are talking about the same CSC? Just a question.

I was part of csc in atlanta. Shaolindough was part of csc Denver I think.

What is the question?

bodhi warrior

11-02-2014, 04:21 PM

For those that took the last 2 drunken immortals seminars...does this look familiar?
Even has the chest and back crawls.

http://youtu.be/iPeY2obWgX4

ShaolinDough

11-02-2014, 09:02 PM

For those that took the last 2 drunken immortals seminars...does this look familiar?
Even has the chest and back crawls.

http://youtu.be/iPeY2obWgX4

Holy ****, your right. Lol.

bodhi warrior

11-03-2014, 04:02 AM

Holy ****, your right. Lol.

Of course some idiots will say..."see, that proves he's authentic." Lol

beng

11-03-2014, 07:02 AM

I was part of csc in atlanta. Shaolindough was part of csc Denver I think.

What is the question?

I was under the impression that Atlanta and Colorado were two different divisions one being under the swords and the other under Master Grooms and Reid. I may have been mistaken I haven't really been around in a while.

DAW

11-03-2014, 03:11 PM

Hello Kung Fu Forum members! :)

I just joined the forum members, though have been a lurker for quite some time.

Anyway I was at the Atlanta CSC for around 5-6 months last year, and left in order to join Shi De Ru's Songshan Shaolin school.
(was looking for Songshan Shaolin originally, but was led to believe that CSC was "teh true shaolinz")

I have been at my new school for a year now, and am enjoying it immensely. Also glad I left CSC as they seem to advertise birthday parties more than training these days. :p

Nice to meet you all and I will try to be active in forum conversations.

(note: I am 21 years old)
experience:
3 years chung do kwan TKD
1/2 year shaolin don't
1 year songshan shaolin

hskwarrior

11-03-2014, 05:47 PM

eliminate the shaolin don't and you should be fine. lol

DAW

11-03-2014, 09:03 PM

eliminate the shaolin don't and you should be fine. lol

The 6 months of Shaolin Do-n't was a shameful chapter in my martial arts study, and when asked about my martial arts background I usually don't list it as it was negligible.

Nevertheless I found that at the Atlanta school they had very good conditioning. (pretty much only positive thing I can say about the experience)
The sparring techniques were eh-okay, the forms were obviously suspect from the beginning and I realized it wasn't gongfu by the 2nd form I learned.

From what my Shifu (current) told me, the SD forms are obviously not gongfu, but the Tai Chi that's taught there is mostly correct Yang style with slight alterations.

All in all people still in SD simply do not want to admit they were wrong, or admit that they wasted a portion of their life and were tricked. It's easier to live with their delusions of grandeur.

hskwarrior

11-03-2014, 09:30 PM

The 6 months of Shaolin Do-n't was a shameful chapter in my martial arts study, and when asked about my martial arts background I usually don't list it as it was negligible.

Nevertheless I found that at the Atlanta school they had very good conditioning. (pretty much only positive thing I can say about the experience)
The sparring techniques were eh-okay, the forms were obviously suspect from the beginning and I realized it wasn't gongfu by the 2nd form I learned.

From what my Shifu (current) told me, the SD forms are obviously not gongfu, but the Tai Chi that's taught there is mostly correct Yang style with slight alterations.

All in all people still in SD simply do not want to admit they were wrong, or admit that they wasted a portion of their life and were tricked. It's easier to live with their delusions of grandeur.

yeah. still. it's shaolin Don't.

brucereiter

11-04-2014, 10:54 AM

I was under the impression that Atlanta and Colorado were two different divisions one being under the swords and the other under Master Grooms and Reid. I may have been mistaken I haven't really been around in a while.

That is correct.

Gary got his start in Denver under the soards. When he moved to atlanta he called his school chinese shaolin center.
Gary is my teacher at csc atlanta.

warrior k long

11-10-2014, 07:24 PM

After 3 weeks in this :rolleyes:goofey, wanna be art. My Sifu was always talking, 5th degree teaching how to put the gi pants on backwards 13 years and and puting his pants on backwards. All talk, crappy forms. Now Im learning Shoalin quan the real no comarision.

crazymaddrunk

11-13-2014, 05:33 PM

This is still going on? I haven't been on here in YEARS, and this is still gong on? That's right, biatches, I'm back, for more hate and discontent! Muahahahaha

crazymaddrunk

11-13-2014, 05:48 PM

Over 10 years since I've been on here...yet, here we are LOL.

DAW

11-13-2014, 10:59 PM

crazymaddrunk

11-14-2014, 09:51 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPfmEBccqs8&list=UUWYtZYH4kcbMm29liIOSGQQ

Who wouldn't want to learn that Chinese "Bo Staff" form? :cool:
Seems legit to me. Some authentic Karate-Fu in that DVD for sure.

You're a flaming idiot, DAW. Speaking of which you know nothing about. Maybe your wife/girlfriend is legit, but maybe not.

hskwarrior

11-14-2014, 10:10 AM

look, i found a lost picture of Shaolin Faux ancestors.

9201

crazymaddrunk

11-14-2014, 11:19 AM

look, i found a lost picture of Shaolin Faux ancestors.

9201

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha you're SOOOOOOOO funny....NOT....don't quit your day job and attempt to get into comedy, unless you're going to carry a picture of your family around, that may make some folks laugh.

hskwarrior

11-14-2014, 01:03 PM

More ancestral pics of Shaolin FAUX.....enjoy.

9202

pazman

11-14-2014, 02:19 PM

I love man sausage.

Yes, of course you do.

hskwarrior

11-14-2014, 03:16 PM

Quote Originally Posted by crazymaddrunk View Post
I didn't really come of out the closet until my first black guy. it's really true. once you go black you never go back.

TMI mannnnnnnnn T - M - I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-N-

11-14-2014, 06:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPfmEBccqs8&list=UUWYtZYH4kcbMm29liIOSGQQ

Who wouldn't want to learn that Chinese "Bo Staff" form? :cool:
Seems legit to me. Some authentic Karate-Fu in that DVD for sure.

At least this guy wasn't trying to get people to pay for his make believe stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR3PT5E0XDo

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 04:56 PM

I love my Mother nightly, just like the rest of you do.

Wow, phone number please?

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 04:58 PM

Yeah, my Mom and sisters love the black snake too. What can I do about it? sigh

I'm not surprised.

hskwarrior

11-15-2014, 05:19 PM

Quote Originally Posted by crazymaddrunk View Post

Hskwarrior, i heard you're Hung like a horse :D

It's not that type of party ****edofflush....i mean crazymaddrunk
that name sounds like it was invented by Sin The.

Kellen Bassette

11-15-2014, 05:44 PM

This is the fundamental flaw to the "Reply with quote" option.

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 05:59 PM

More pics of my family.....enjoy.

9202

Nice group.

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 06:01 PM

I think this guy is so freakin' hot, geez I can't wait til I get home tonight and get in my closet!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR3PT5E0XDo

Wow, do tell us all about it.

hskwarrior

11-15-2014, 06:19 PM

9203......................

-N-

11-15-2014, 07:05 PM

This is the fundamental flaw to the "Reply with quote" option.

Fake quotes for the world's longest thread on fake kung fu.

Seems appropriate to me :rolleyes:

-N-

11-15-2014, 07:08 PM

Seriously though, that 2 person staff routine was pretty sad.

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 08:02 PM

Seriously though, that 2 person staff routine was pretty sad.

Wow look at the awesomeness of Northern Praying Mantis, eh -N- ?

http://youtu.be/66_iwOyXrM8

hskwarrior

11-15-2014, 10:30 PM

This two man staff form is far superior than that bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDbkjGS3qVA

crazymaddrunk

11-15-2014, 11:14 PM

God how I love Asian men, my mouth waters with these 2 playing with their poles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDbkjGS3qVA

Yeah, I knew it...

hskwarrior

11-16-2014, 12:57 AM

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/07/23/gibson-exclusive-wi-2-2.jpg

Judge Pen

12-08-2014, 04:01 PM

For the record to the SD people, I have hardly met anyone from Shaolin Do on the east coast/south; but, I will say that Master Gary Mullins and Master John Keller are ABSOLUTE inspirations, and great martial artists that I would never want to cross. I have yet to meet a sifu or master from any style that can hold themselves to Gary Mullins standard, especially in consideration of age. The man is a beast in his training, and a true professional. My hat is tipped. I wish I lived closer so I could train with him more...Gotta give credit, where credit is due.

Hello Shaolin Dough! It is nice to meet you, and thank you for the kind things you have said about one of my main teachers, Garry Mullins. I don't post here as often, but breezed through today and noticed your exchanges with Sifu Frank. I'm glad you guys met; I think he is probably a good guy and we would get along well if we met face to face. Did you guys ever get the opportunity to train or spar with each others' classes?

ShaolinDough

12-10-2014, 03:09 PM

Hello Shaolin Dough! It is nice to meet you, and thank you for the kind things you have said about one of my main teachers, Garry Mullins. I don't post here as often, but breezed through today and noticed your exchanges with Sifu Frank. I'm glad you guys met; I think he is probably a good guy and we would get along well if we met face to face. Did you guys ever get the opportunity to train or spar with each others' classes?

Hey Judge, yeah I try to meet up with him when I can. Like if he is out here on the west coast doing a seminar somewhere... He is one the best I have met, across any style.

I added Sifu Frank to my email list for it, we usually hold open spar/push/workout every 3rd Sunday unless there is something else going on. Nothing this month, or in January due to the holidays; and I have a seminar with my Taiji/Xing Yi teacher in January. So really, we have only had one month so far that it was held, and I know Sifu Frank has things going on... I am sure it will all come together sometime in the new year. Sifu Frank is a good guy, it was fun watching their lion dance and seeing them interact in the Chinatown community. I have a lot more respect for him and his school then many of the other schools around.

hskwarrior

12-10-2014, 04:09 PM

i'm having surgery...i'm not worried about sparring. my students can go there and spar if they want tho....

tattooedmonk

12-11-2014, 11:52 AM

Master Mullins will be conducting a "West Coast" seminar in the fall 2015. Actually, its not a rumor.;):cool: And I believe Master Reid is conducting 2 different weekend seminars.:cool: See you there!!

Judge Pen

01-06-2015, 05:03 PM

Frank, hope all is well with your surgery and you heal up in no time.

hskwarrior

01-06-2015, 05:09 PM

surgery went well. healing now. thanks

nautavac

01-07-2015, 07:58 PM

Okay, been a while since I posted on here. HSK, I hope that all went well with the surgery and you make a speedy recovery. Aside from that I just started testing for first black. We have done all the lower rank material except the self-defense, that is for next class along with the brown level stuff. Anyway we are very excited, it has been a long road and a lot of work. Anyone have any suggestions?

MasterKiller

01-08-2015, 06:49 AM

surgery went well. healing now. thanks

I'm assuming you're taking hormones as well? Let us know how your "transition" comes along. :D

hskwarrior

01-08-2015, 08:55 AM

nah, no hormones. LOL. I had a big Lipoma develop in the crik of my neck. it was pushing down on my nerve and made my arm numb.
the surgeon said it was bigger than a grapefruit. it is a relief tho

Judge Pen

01-12-2015, 11:16 AM

Glad to hear you're feeling better and healing well.

OldandUsed

01-15-2015, 09:58 AM

Hey, I do not wish bad things on anyone.

Glad the surgery went well, Frank, and hope you mend up and are able to do everything you want to. God bless.

jared.a.rapp

01-30-2015, 06:12 PM

I attended the Chinese Shaolin Center in Marietta, Georgia run by (then) Sifu (and now Master) Michael Reid (former NFL player of the Atlanta Falcons) back in the early 2000s. You can read more about Master Reid here: http://cscmarietta.com/about/master-michael-reid. I suppose that the quality of material you will learn from his school will be very good, even though it's probably not "authentic" Shaolin Kung Fu derived from the temple itself. The center is now called Michael Reid's Shaolin Martial Arts (http://www.reidshaolinmartialarts.com/). At first I thought everything was legitimate. I ended up not being able to afford tuition after several months because of other interests I had and school obligations.

Our school's Grandmaster was Sin Kwang The. I was impressed at his physique, not knowing that this man would have gone to court for fraudulent claims years later.

I will admit, the basic training seemed very legitimate (and it probably was), and I really did notice a difference in my overall physique and mental clarity, flexibility, and strength. I completed the white belt curriculum, earning my yellow belt. I then completed my yellow belt, earning my blue belt. I ALMOST made it all the way through my blue belt training, which would have earned me a green belt (one step below brown belt). I did this in a matter of a few months. Along the way, I learned some basic bo staff spins at the yellow belt level, as well as some nunchaku spins and techniques at the blue belt level. If I would have made it to the green belt level, I would have been trained with the short stick (roughly the length of a nightstick, only much thicker, with a rubber handle, as I recall -- made of oak or something similar).

Overall, my experience was rather pleasant, and the staff was very nice (both the bo staff and the human staff LOL... bad joke sorry). I am just so ****ed off these days that I cannot consider what I studied so hard "authentic" Shaolin Kung Fu.

hskwarrior

01-30-2015, 06:20 PM

you are not dead. you can always learn authentic kung fu. just don't do it the wrong way.

Old and Used. thanks man.

OldandUsed

02-02-2015, 08:39 AM

Hope you mend up and get back to your training.

OldandUsed

03-10-2015, 09:25 AM

Did the thread finally die?

nautavac

03-12-2015, 01:23 PM

curenado

03-12-2015, 03:30 PM

Congratulations
I find we usually get more out of doing something than talking about it :)

hskwarrior

03-12-2015, 04:57 PM

congrats.......

OldandUsed

03-14-2015, 01:35 PM

Congratulations to both of you!

Shaolin Wookie

03-31-2015, 07:32 PM

My daughter and I finally passed first black and jumped right into black tiger. :) I know many may not think too highly of this post but to us it marks a little achievement in several years spent training and we are thrilled to be a part of it.

I'd say this. You don't have to be ashamed of what you do. An you don't have to duck your head at your accomplishments. You also don't have to misrepresent the source either. There's freedom in that. The poster above--Jared--noted the change in the Marietta school. The teacher branched out, learned from new teachers in other arts, regularly has some amazing fma, ima, and East Asian ma's run through his school; he scrapped what was bad, and kept what he saw as valuable. I wish I could still be part of that school, but life and such.....

Some great
Things I learned: cmc's taichi, which I practice every break and lunch at work (3x day)--granted, "modified" back to the source, but keeping sd's kick for
The hanging of the lotus. Jiang bagua. Seven star. 14&15 crane ( prob made up by gmst), etc. sin the may have made up a lot of stuff. Some of it was actually quite good. Some was horrible. He knew fighting. His forms, however, we're sometimes bad. Some weren't.

Always liked black tigers, myself. Still practice them on weekends. Another decent sin the system

shen ku

05-17-2015, 01:00 PM

hello everyone and anyone... haven't been on in a long time. Nice to read back and see all are doing well.

bodhi warrior

06-05-2015, 02:12 PM

I'd say this. You don't have to be ashamed of what you do. An you don't have to duck your head at your accomplishments. You also don't have to misrepresent the source either. There's freedom in that. The poster above--Jared--noted the change in the Marietta school. The teacher branched out, learned from new teachers in other arts, regularly has some amazing fma, ima, and East Asian ma's run through his school; he scrapped what was bad, and kept what he saw as valuable. I wish I could still be part of that school, but life and such.....

Some great
Things I learned: cmc's taichi, which I practice every break and lunch at work (3x day)--granted, "modified" back to the source, but keeping sd's kick for
The hanging of the lotus. Jiang bagua. Seven star. 14&15 crane ( prob made up by gmst), etc. sin the may have made up a lot of stuff. Some of it was actually quite good. Some was horrible. He knew fighting. His forms, however, we're sometimes bad. Some weren't.

Always liked black tigers, myself. Still practice them on weekends. Another decent sin the system

Sounds very similar to my outlook. My focus is on taichi64, Jiang's bagua, I chin ching, black tigers, mantis.
The black tigers are full of useful techniques. Very practical. I still hit the other stuff between white and black from time to time. Just to keep them in my mind.

kwaichang

06-08-2015, 11:04 AM

Glad to see all are well and still fighting . Any new news out there?:)

bodhi warrior

06-09-2015, 10:24 AM

Glad to see all are well and still fighting . Any new news out there?:)

Check your pm

Judge Pen

06-24-2015, 01:11 PM

Just checking in. Things seem to have slowed down. Any news out there? Frank, are you all mended up? KC, hadn't seen you in a while; want to grab a beer?

OldandUsed

08-05-2015, 11:57 AM

Are we still breathing?

kwaichang

08-09-2015, 05:54 PM

No Beer thanks but I would love to have a Tea or Coffee. JP:)

OldandUsed

08-10-2015, 06:49 PM

Come on up to Louisville and you can have both. :)

shen ku

08-15-2015, 01:21 PM

I it is amazing, how so much as just stopped. Hope all are training well and health.

chud

09-08-2015, 02:26 PM

Some great
Things I learned: cmc's taichi, which I practice every break and lunch at work (3x day)--granted, "modified" back to the source, but keeping sd's kick for
The hanging of the lotus. Jiang bagua. Seven star.

Nice. I think modifying the forms of the styles you like back to their authentic source is a good way to make the best of the Shaolin Do experience.

I think quite a few people have done that by moving on to good teachers in Bagua, Taiji, or whatever after an initial exposure to those styles in SD.
Also, there is so much good stuff online these days, you can start at YouTube.

GeneChing

09-29-2015, 10:27 AM

Congratulations to all you Shaolin-Do-ers on this forum.

Martial arts leader celebrates 50 years of teaching in Lexington (http://www.kentucky.com/2015/09/26/4057611/martial-arts-leader-celebrates.html)
By Jack Brammer jbrammer@herald-leader.com September 26, 2015

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/2015/09/26/17/10/xHc1L.AuSt.79.jpeg
Grandmaster Sin Thé struck a pose Saturday at a tournament at Lexington Catholic High School. Hundreds of all ages attended from all over the United States. HERALD-LEADER

As a young man, martial arts Grandmaster Sin Kwang Thé said he could break eight to 10 concrete blocks piled atop one another with one swoop of his hand.

Today, at age 72, he says he can break only six.

Time takes its toll, but Thé (pronounced Tay) still is fit and trim.

At 5 feet 7 inches tall, weighing 149 pounds, he exercises two hours a day and meditates whenever the opportunity arises. He stopped eating meat three years ago when he ballooned to 187 pounds and now uses supplements in his vegetarian diet.

His knees were bothering him a few years ago, but that problem has gone away. He still can place his foot on a standing man's throat.

If God permits, he says with a smile, he would like to live another 50 years.

The soft-spoken Thé, who lives in California, was honored Saturday at Lexington Catholic High School for 50 years of teaching martial arts in Lexington.

He was treated with great respect during a tournament that attracted several hundred people of all ages from across the United States. Some even put a $100 bill in his hand for an autographed poster.

Thé's years as a struggling student at the University of Kentucky in the 1960s led to his empire of Shaolin-Do schools in the United States. There used to be more than 80, but he now has about 50. One is on Gold Rush Road in Lexington.

He estimates that all his schools over the years have taught 1 million students.

The following is how Thé tells his story:

He says his Shaolin-Do schools teach a curriculum of Chinese martial arts based on the Shaolin Temple, a Buddhist temple built sometime between 386 and 534 A.D. in China. Its teachings spread, and the temples were the equivalent of universities for the martial arts.

Thé was born in Bandung, Indonesia, in 1943. His parents were Chinese but fled to Indonesia after the Communist Party came into power.

Thé's parents were wealthy. His father ran a textile plant with about 1,200 workers, and his mother ran a jewelry store.

According to a bio on his website, Sinthe.com, Thé was drawn to the martial arts at the age of 5.

Thé eventually went to a class that taught empty hand forms, weapon forms and sparring. He eventually was accepted into the class and became a star student.

He was groomed by a grandmaster to become the next grandmaster of Shaolin-Do. Only a grandmaster can name his replacement before retiring. (Thé says his replacement has not yet been born.)

In 1964, Thé planned to go to school in Germany to study engineering and physics, but a friend of the family convinced him and his parents that he could get just as good an education at a lower cost at the University of Kentucky.

Thé flew to Cincinnati and took a taxi to Lexington, which cost him all of the money he had.

He began his studies at Transylvania University for a year in order to improve his English. To supplement his income, he started for the first time to teach Shaolin-Do to non-Chinese.

His classes took off when he went to UK. Advertising in UK's student newspaper, The Kentucky Kernel, worked.

In 1968, Thé became the youngest grandmaster in the history of the Shaolin martial arts.

Thé was continuing his education at UK when the former grandmaster, Ie Chang Ming, died in 1976 at the age of 96.

Thé said he realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin grandmaster. He quit his studies and devoted all of his time to teaching the art of Shaolin-Do.

He is now writing a book about his life. It will include his failed marriages and his three children. Daughter Denise Thé is a Hollywood scriptwriter who worked on CBS' Person of Interest TV show; son Dwight Thé teaches physical education at the University of California; and son Kevin Thé is a police detective in Tucson, Ariz.

Thé calls himself a "spiritual but not religious person." His father was a Buddhist; his mother, a Seventh-day Adventist.

Bill Leonard of Lexington calls Thé "one of the nicest human beings I've ever met."

Leonard met Thé when Leonard was a 19-year-old student at UK who signed up for one of Thé's classes. Thé was 24.

They became best friends. Leonard runs the Sin Thé Center in Lexington.

"He probably has beaten me up more than anybody else, since we practice together," Leonard said.

"But even after all these years, he never ceases in class to teach me something new — either about martial arts or being a human.

"I hope he goes on forever."

Purple Dinosaur

10-13-2015, 07:55 AM

Long time lurker. First time poster. Retired Shaolin Do black belt here.

Thank you to all the posters who have participated constructively over the years. I learned a lot.

Activity has died down. But perhaps someone knows the answers to these questions.

A few years ago, I read and heard that the Mullins branch was going to split entirely from GMT. I believe the Asheville North Carolina school openly did so on their website. But I haven't seen anything else. In fact, every time I bother to look at the Mullins website and facebook pages, it still lists GMT. Does anyone know what happened or the current relationship?

Second, I also heard from an active black belt that EM Mullins was going to restructure the curriculum with big changes. His website still shows the old curriculum. Did that happen?

beng

10-26-2015, 05:00 AM

Yes Master Mullins left also I know Master Reid restructured his curriculum to reflect some of the other systems and teachers he has studied with.

OldandUsed

11-03-2015, 06:33 AM

Gene, thanks for posting the article on Sin The'.

Had not seen it or heard about it. Reading the article, I was amazed that his story has not changed since I met him in 1970 and started training under him and Leonard, even after the lawsuits. Say what you will about his roots and disclosures, there were some nice aspects to what he put out, health wise.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Frank

shen ku

12-02-2015, 02:48 PM

Wow... quite!!! Hope all are training hard in the art of their choosing, and enjoying family and friends for the holidays

OldandUsed

12-02-2015, 03:34 PM

Best wishes to all a this time of year, regardless of your position.

MasterKiller

12-19-2015, 07:57 PM

Congratulations to all you Shaolin-Do-ers on this forum.

He missed the part about making up all the forms. Lame.

shen ku

01-18-2016, 09:01 AM

How do you train when its 8°?

OldandUsed

01-18-2016, 10:20 AM

Do your remember Hiang's class where we got to sit in the snow and ice and do breathing techniques? Or GMT class at Shively in the snow and ice?

shen ku

01-29-2016, 12:47 PM

I started in the art in 1985, but never trained in class directly with either of them. I have many "fun" stories from my teacher who did train directly with them for many years.

bodhi warrior

01-31-2016, 06:51 PM

I started in the art in 1985, but never trained in class directly with either of them. I have many "fun" stories from my teacher who did train directly with them for many years.

I love hearing stories about the training and such from the '60's and '70's

Shaolin Wookie

02-02-2016, 06:04 AM

Man, this thread died out. Good thing, too. I'm guessing that most people found their answers to the first post.;)

Been lifting a lot and working core (6 days a week)---almost have all of the I Chin Ching postures down easy. Amazing how the "superhuman" postures---free-standing full plank, etc. are really easy once you drop body fat % to single digits and focus on pullups, dips, weight-vest squats/lunges, deadlifts, military presses, and pushups (slow, 10 rep max kind of pushups). Two last ones to go--freestanding handstand pushups and single-arm plank. Hopefully mastered by mid-summer. Getting there. Working out--lifting, non-"kung fu" related exercise, as opposed to forms reps, made the greatest revolution in my practice. I found that Western methods--paleo diet and lifting-- really bring power to the practice. Feeling young and powerful still. Hoping to turn I Chin Ching into a free flowing exercise regimen--Frank Medrano style. No more---heres one posture, there's another one....and here's a modified one you can't do without proper physical training outside of the postures....LOL

I'm kinda glad I quit in a way, but miss Master REid's training. I stopped learning more forms and focused on the ones I learned badly. Greater core and stabilizer strength led to better form. I now run through mantis forms / cranes/ brown belt forms at sprints to maximize cardio on cardio days. Reflection led to better understanding. Research fixed the fudged details. I know Master REid was on the same track, and wish him the best. Maybe we'll cross paths again when my sons need a "proper" teacher.

Hope all are training well. Maybe I'll add some good videos of SD training in a while to youtube for justification this summer. LOL.

Made-up stuff and all (and maybe some freestanding handstand pushups flowing down to some one-armed planks.)

WhiteEarp

02-05-2016, 11:26 AM

Hi there, it's been a while (say a couple of years) Scince my last post.
The reason i became active is to Let you guys know i've quit with how chuen in Holland. How Chuen shares some similarities with Shaolin Do.
I have been training for 14 years and lately came to the conclusion that it was a mixture of kempo,silat and some kungfu.
A year ago I started practicing in hung kuen and I saw the Light. My backpain is over, i've become stronger and my stances have greately improved.
Allthough I do not hold a grudge and believe that my former teacher did not see the harm in it. Be warned, wrong training of incomplete systems can harm your body.
Some of you tried to tell me but I did not listen. My apalogies.

bodhi warrior

02-05-2016, 02:12 PM

WhiteEarp

02-06-2016, 02:33 AM

Did your teacher ever talk about Ie Chang Ming or the The' brothers?

He talked about it, but was never realy clear on lineage.
That was until I came across some similarities on this forum and his stories. I shared my Findings and they adopted the stories.
The stories are Probably true to a degree, but scince i started training in hung kuen I started to notice the huge differences in southern chinese kung fu and the art we were Thaught. And the similarities between kempo and the heavy influences from silat or kuntao as they sometimes call indo / chinese styles.(I did not know that but what they seem to call it in indonesia)
So to call it a secret kungfu style and surround it with mysticism is just wrong. It's almost like a religion for some.
So many techniques and forms that, as I later found out simply cannot work. I think 2/10th might be usable.

bawang

02-07-2016, 12:36 AM

the only value in kung fu or any traditional martial arts is the historical value. if it is not historically authentic then it is worthless.

for price of one week class you can buy at kfc one medium gravy, 5 piece box/chicken pot pie which is a great deal

it is literally more authentic to learn shaolin forms from youtube than to learn from sin the because the forms actually come from shaolin temple.

shen ku

03-07-2016, 07:28 AM

Anyone have a good place to buy steel shot????

shen ku

05-04-2016, 12:47 PM

Well it haf a long run

Old Noob

06-01-2016, 01:30 PM

I decided before I stopped actually training in SD that I wouldn't progress past 1st black. Between what I've learned on the forum and in my own research and my own experience with the art, I'm fairly confident that the 1st black/2nd black line is where a lot of "borrowed" material starts to enter the curriculum. Before that, there's just too much interrelation of movement between the forms for them to have been borrowed from disparate systems. In any case, my conundrum about continuing SD training was solved by a geographic move to a place where the system does not have schools. Since that time, I've been practicing only BJJ. So, at this point, my reflections on SD are these for what they are worth:
1. I was in really good shape when I did SD. At my school at least, the conditioning and pragmatism emphasized in the training kept me very fit. I train in a BJJ school now that routinely has members place in Pan-ams and Worlds and I'm less fit than I was then (I've also crossed the 40 year old threshold so that may be a contributor). I am also likely a more formidable combatant than I was even at a lower fitness threshold.
2. Though SD emphasizes form collection and quantity, many of the techniques are usable. I've crossed hands with a number of MT-trained MMA folks and have had favorable experiences. There's an aspect of "teach me a technique and I know a technique/teach me a concept and I know 1,000 techniques" to it, but I've found myself able to apply some of the techniques effectively against those from more combat/sport oriented backgrounds.
3. My particular SD school was a wonderful place that made outcasts from other walks of life feel included and enabled them to enjoy a physically challenging martial art, which is, I think, one of the reasons that many of us become involved in martial arts in the first place.

Anyway, glad to hear that most are well and that those who can train are training.

Cheers!

shen ku

08-21-2016, 04:59 PM

Such a long talk to end so fast.

bawang

08-30-2016, 08:12 PM

i am currently in denver colorado. if any shaolin do people want to escape evil antichrist fake shaolin and learn the way of the true golden shaolin path send me pm

i am doing this out of compassion

hskwarrior

08-31-2016, 08:16 AM

i am currently in denver colorado. if any shaolin do people want to escape evil antichrist fake shaolin and learn the way of the true golden shaolin path send me pm

i am doing this out of compassion

shut your retarded ass up, everyone knows you're really Sin Kwang The, shaolin Dohs founder

(honestly, i can't wait for your b1tch ass to die. you're truly a despicable waste of human space. I hope you die a horrible death)

bawang

08-31-2016, 08:55 PM

free shaolin kung fu training for shaolin do people in denver colorado guarentee

is like cult exit program but with kung fu

i do this for obama

Lokhopkuen

03-09-2017, 02:45 AM

You are so bad 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🍇

Royal Dragon

03-25-2017, 08:27 PM

So, I have not been here in YEARS!! Yet THIS thread is still at the top of the pile.... :D :p

shen ku

04-24-2017, 11:24 AM

Hello everyone.....hello???

humbleman

04-25-2017, 02:49 PM

That refused to die!

shen ku

05-09-2017, 11:51 AM

Somethings never die.
Others just keep coming back, like a bad penny.

David Jamieson

05-09-2017, 12:00 PM

This thread refuses to go away.
It's only coincidental that it's about shaolin-do.
lol

GeneChing

05-31-2017, 08:18 AM

But this seemed nice and post-worthy.

11-year-old boy hacks security experts' devices: 5 things about the cyber **** kid (http://www.straitstimes.com/tech/11-year-old-boy-hacks-security-experts-devices-5-things-about-the-cyber-****-kid)
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_pictrure_780x520_/public/articles/2017/05/18/42607709_-_18_05_2017_-_reuben_paul.jpg?itok=K5Rtzxfp.PHOTO: AFP
MAY 18, 2017, 9:45 PM SGT
Lydia Lam

Eleven-year-old cyber **** kid Reuben Paul was in the news this week for stunning an audience of security experts with his live demonstration of how he hacked into their Bluetooth devices using a teddy bear.

The sixth-grader gave his demo at a cyber security conference at the World Forum in The Netherlands on Tuesday (May 16).

With his bear, connected to the iCloud via Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, he downloaded dozens of numbers of those in the hall, including some belonging to top officials.

Here are five things to know about the boy, dubbed a "cyber ninja".

1. HE WAS A CEO AT EIGHT YEARS OLD

Reuben became a chief executive of his own company at just eight years old, after developing an app for a school assignment. His company, Prudent Games, aims to help customers learn about cyber security through entertaining games.

These include a game called Cracker Proof, which teaches users how to build strong passwords, and Crack Me If You Can, a game which provides information about brute force attacks .

The games are available for iPad and some for iPhone.

Reuben said in a blog post in 2015 that there were no new games added as "third grade got in the way".

"I have to focus on studies because education is important," he wrote, sharing that he had been giving keynote speeches at several Information Security conferences.

2. HE ALSO BEGAN GIVING TALKS AT EIGHT

When he was eight, Reuben gave a talk at the (ISC)² Security Congress 2014.

ISC)² is an international non-profit membership association advocating cyber security.

According to ISC2, the boy knew he wanted to be a cyber spy from when he was in first grade.

His talk was about creating a safe and secure cyber world for kids, emphasising that the world is unsafe online and filled with new technology and millions of apps that can be used for bad purposes such as cyber bullying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WocYRj0uChE

3. HE HAS A NON-PROFIT CYBER SECURITY SITE

He founded a non-profit site called CyberShaolin which aims to educate and equip the current and next generation about cyber security for a safe and secure cyber world.

The site offers free courses on topics such as the foundations of cyber security, how to defend computer systems and the various types of cyber security attacks.

It also features videos explaining different cyber security concepts such as hashing, keylogging and Denial of Service.

4. HE WAS THE YOUNGEST SHAOLIN-DO KUNG FU BLACK BELT IN AMERICA

Reuben's interests are not limited to just IT - he loves martial arts as well, and at seven years old became the youngest Shaolin-Do Kung Fu black belt in America.

His achievement, made in 2013, was covered by United States media.

His father, information technology expert Mano Paul, said in a blog in 2013 that Reuben did his tests in front of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The at the North Austin Shaolin Do Kung Fu school on Aug 22, 2013.

He said Reuben had started training since he was 3½ years old.

5. HE BEGAN SHOWING HIS IT SKILLS FROM AS EARLY AS SIX

Mr Paul told AFP about how his son had revealed his early IT skills when he was six.

Using a simple explanation from his father about how one smartphone game worked, Reuben figured out it was the same kind of algorithm behind the popular game Angry Birds.

"He has always surprised us. Every moment when we teach him something he's usually the one who ends up teaching us," Mr Paul told AFP.

SOURCES: AFP, ISC2TV, Prudentgames.com, Thepauls.wordpress.com, Tripwire.com

Firehawk4

05-31-2017, 06:16 PM

Why don't shaolin Do people fight in mixed martial arts in the cage ?

MasterKiller

06-05-2017, 11:51 AM

Why don't shaolin Do people fight in mixed martial arts in the cage ?

The same reason no one from any other strip mall school does. They don't train for it

hskwarrior

06-05-2017, 08:49 PM

Have you ever seen their sparring? OMG.....LMAO

shen ku

07-25-2017, 11:35 AM

Its like that little pink bunny. ... it keeps going and going

Judge Pen

09-14-2017, 03:01 PM

its not completed yet.

How's the book coming Frank?

themeecer

01-05-2018, 11:11 AM

So who is still training out there? I just hit my 34th year. Has this thread truly been going for 17 years?

bodhi warrior

01-05-2018, 10:19 PM

So who is still training out there? I just hit my 34th year. Has this thread truly been going for 17 years?

I do. Just about every day. What’s your current training like?

MasterKiller

01-16-2018, 04:48 PM

So who is still training out there? I just hit my 34th year. Has this thread truly been going for 17 years?

Do you seriously have ICQ, AOL messenger, and Yahoo Messenger all still running?

shen ku

01-18-2018, 10:40 AM

Still around and still training

We should get together sometime!! LOL

OldandUsed

01-21-2018, 05:26 PM

Still around, still training and still teaching in Louisville.

shen ku

02-08-2018, 10:35 AM

Pm me where in Louisville you teach?

Judge Pen

03-20-2018, 09:31 AM

Having been out of the SD loop for a while, I missed the announcements of this publication: https://smile.amazon.com/Last-Grandmaster-Legend-Hua-Book/dp/0998183105/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521563417&sr=8-1&keywords=sin+kwang+the

hskwarrior

03-20-2018, 02:56 PM

It chronicles the achievements of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The´, an extraordinary man, whose exceptional discipline and superb martial arts expertise enabled him to become the youngest Grandmaster in history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nui2SmtQlt4

hskwarrior

03-20-2018, 02:58 PM

Grandmaser Sin Kwang The´ is uniquely able to take you on a journey through his eventful life and beyond, into the mystical realm of ancient legend to share powerful life-enhancing techniques never before available to the West

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a393N6jbONo

hskwarrior

03-20-2018, 03:00 PM

The Grandmaster also introduces a profound spiritual element into his exciting tale by revealing the existence of his own spiritual guardian, the legendary martial arts warrior, Lady Hua, who first appeared to him in his dreams as a boy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beF2lcbtGEo

hskwarrior

03-20-2018, 03:03 PM

lady hua has served as his spiritual guardian throughout his entire life and unfailingly led him through tragedy and pitfalls on his path to greatness. With her guidance, sin the´ was able to persevere through tragedies that might have crushed a lesser man, saved by his unwavering commitment to a lifelong regimen of superhumanly-grueling martial arts training that few others could have survived.

the guy is an admitted fraud.....

hskwarrior

03-20-2018, 03:04 PM

Best of all, at the end of the book, Grandmaster Sin Kwang The´ bestows the ancient Nei Kung technique of “Eternal Youth” onto his faithful readers, which, when combined with a special, enhanced “Green Smoothie” elixir he has developed just for you, can extend your life expectancy by decades!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhU8gTywsmg

OldandUsed

04-15-2018, 12:06 PM

Shaolin Wookie

10-11-2018, 12:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML-MP_VQRvU

Here's the original version of our Qiang Shu Lian Shi "Practice of the Spear Fighting Techniques." It's practically the exact same form start-to-finish. You can see where SD deviated from the original in 1-2 spots by adapting the technique (or changing slightly), but only ever-so slightly. Pretty ****ed close to a carbon copy if ever I've seen one.

OldandUsed

10-11-2018, 03:33 AM

Have to agree, Wookie

bodhi warrior

10-11-2018, 05:10 AM

Shaolin Wookie

10-11-2018, 03:51 PM

I think the The’ brothers were teaching that form in the 70’s

Yes, and both still teach it. Our Luo Spear has characteristics of the Luojia style (same with Yang/Meihua), but I haven't quite seen a carbon copy like this one. I'd be curious to know the origin of the Qiang Shu form depicted, since it might point to the common source--old or new.

Royal Dragon

10-15-2018, 06:54 PM

OMG!!!

I have been gone for YEARS!!!!! I come back and this thread is STILL on the top!!

MasterKiller

10-18-2018, 02:28 PM

Yes, and both still teach it. Our Luo Spear has characteristics of the Luojia style (same with Yang/Meihua), but I haven't quite seen a carbon copy like this one. I'd be curious to know the origin of the Qiang Shu form depicted, since it might point to the common source--old or new.

The “Common. Source” is probably a book on spear forms that Sin The checked out of a library.

Shaolin Wookie

11-14-2018, 09:28 AM

The “Common. Source” is probably a book on spear forms that Sin The checked out of a library.

Agreed. I meant, of the actual form, not the copyist.:rolleyes:

shen ku

02-19-2019, 08:22 PM

hello out there?? lol just had to check back in

Judge Pen

02-28-2019, 10:10 AM

Shaolin Wookie

05-01-2019, 12:09 PM

No. Qiang Shu is a pretty common routine that he could've picked up anywhere. I have a conspiracy theory now that involves the Jing Wu Curriculum.

I parted ways with my CSC Atlanta school 6-7 years ago, right when I had my first kid and the instructor was also moving more into Silat (shout out to him! :D), and have since been taking lessons from a couple of instructors (7 star mantis / Chen Tai Chi, SanFeng & Xuanwu Wudang [Liangyi])--mostly private lessons, seminars, training buddies, and informal study groups, not much in "formal" schools. Went back to my Longfist roots, too, and studied those hard for 6 years--let most of my SD forms lapse outside of Black Tiger/Crane/Bird/spears/tai chi/Jiang Bagua. It's amazing what focusing daily on a handful of traditional and incredibly basic Longfist forms did for me and whatever I wished to retain from SD. I don't think I appreciated what I learned 15 years ago in my Longfist classes as much as I should've--but then, that was a non-sparring school so it tended to get boring.

Anyways, for the conspiracy theory: I crossed paths with a guy from Taiwan who had a root in JingWu's basic curriculum a couple of years back, and he helped me get Jie Quan correct. He also taught me 2 other Jing Wu forms in private instruction: Gong Li Quan and Da Zhan Quan.

So here's something interesting: Jin Gun Fu Hu Chien (I forget the spelling/name, but I think that is what it was called) is--minus a couple of repetitions where you mirror the form on the opposite side--a chop suey version of Da Zhang Quan (Big Battle Fist). When I was learning this form, I had this weird deja vu moment--i hand't done the tiger form for several years by that point. I tried to find a good representation of the form to show y'all what I mean. This is probably a good reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc8yRjSW6ks. You have to take out the tiger, clean up the postures (change the techniques), and look for the right sequences: particularly [00:034 & 00.40, and the kick at 1:00 incorrectly taught as a combo with a roundhouse, and 1:15 double hand strike to tiger steals the heart, incorrectly taught with a groin grab instead of a straight punch]. Instead of tiger palm strikes, Da Zhang features the basic backfist/cross body extension (like the slanting tai chi application for Yang). Jie Quan also features these in the original. The opening, the jump/turns, the ending--it can't be a coincidence. Also, you move off to the 45 degree angle right about the middle of the form where SD has you rear back to fake leg, elbow in with right elbow, rake back/roundouse (or something like that, if I recall it correcty). I think either the The' brothers or their teachers (a JingWu expat?) chopped up the form and turned it into tiger [perhaps to teach kids something basic?]. Or someone had a bad memory of it; or hte The' brothers butchered it. Either that, or the brothers pirated the basic pattern and passed it off as tiger. This would also explain why the intro to the form is so reminiscent of Jie Quan since it has a common source (which is, based on what i had to fix, pretty dang close to the spirit of the original). **ALSO, unrelated--the bowing intro to the three basic Tai Peng forms [Great Bird Opens the Wings] is from the Longfist style [as taught in Lian Bu Quan]. Sometimes the little details betray a lot that went unsaid. Also, Longfist revealed some errors, I think, in how the Tai Peng (basically, short Longfist routines) style was passed on through SD, particularly with regard to stances and transitions. I'm betting the SD godfathers who originated this with both The' brothers (unless they originated it) originally used it like my Longfist teacher used Wu Bu Quan (or for the SD mantis folks, the Stance linkage of QI SHOU).

I'm fairly certain that either the The' brothers or some of their teachers at Chung Yen were teaching a modified curriculum taken from the Longfist routines in Jing Wu's program (either learning it secondhand from someone or else pirating it). That would explain why they wound up with Jie Quan, Lian Wu Zhang, and some modified (I'm being polite) version of Da Zhang Quan (tiger-fied by someone who wanted a tiger form). I think that the Sea Dragon Cane was an abridgement of Jing Wu's Qun Yang Gun (Shepherd's Staff). Too many likenesses to go ignored. Overall, somehow a modified version of Jing Wu's curriculum wound up in Shaolin-Do, by hook or by crook. They could've gotten Qiang Shu from anyone in Jing Wu. Jing Wu taught about 10 basic forms that were pretty standard, but they also had some mantis and local stuff depending on the styles of whoever it was that formed the local association.

Anyways, train hard what you have and what you love. :) Hope you all are doing well.

JCBG

07-16-2019, 12:36 PM

Hello everyone,
I’m new to the forum but have read quite a few of the posts on this thread and felt compelled to offer my 2 cents on Shaolin-Do, its effectiveness as a Martial Art, Sin Kwang The’, and the lawsuit between The’ and Rydberg. As a student of SD with many years of training, I feel like I’m qualified to offer a fair assessment.
First, let me preface this by stating that I do not and will not defend Sin Kwang The’ for the blatant lies he has told. There’s simply no excuse for it and a lie is a lie no matter what his intentions may have been. I’m going to be as objective as possible and give my honest “review” of my experience with SD.
I started my training in SD over 9 years ago. I had previously studied both Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu Karate, each for a little over a year until my Senseis moved away. The SD school was the only other martial arts school nearby other than an American Karate dojo that I had checked out and didn’t like because the instructor seemed arrogant to me. At the time I didn’t know anything about SD or its history; only that it was a Kung Fu school and taught Chinese Martial Arts. The name did strike me as odd since I knew “Shaolin” was a Chinese word and “Do” was Japanese but I didn’t think too much about it. I called the instructor and asked a few simple questions he was more than happy to answer and said I could come down to watch and/or participate in a class any time I wanted. That evening I went down to watch a class and was surprised to see the students in Karate Gi’s and belts. I had expected either Oui’s or just T-Shirts and pants since they were teaching Chinese Martial Arts. When I asked the instructor he told me they used to wear the Oui’s but they kept getting torn and so they switched (back) to the Gi’s. After participating in a few classes I could see why the Gi’s made more sense – they’re just simply more robust. It wasn’t something I really gave much thought to or cared about at the time and since I had previously studied Karate I was already accustomed to the Gi anyway. The Japanese ranking system didn’t bother me either since many other arts have adopted it, including many Chinese schools and I actually thought it was kind of cool. I asked about the history of the art and the lineage/etc as well as the instructor’s qualifications. He was more than happy to share the information and gave me an abridged version of the history that Sin The’ teaches but he did tell me to “take that for what it’s worth”. I saw that the class was run very formally – They did a bow in and bow out, bowed to each other, weren’t allowed to speak unless addressed, etc. The black belts all seemed very competent and I talked to quite a few of them and they were all able to answer any question I gave them. I decided to come back in a couple days to try out a class since the first week was free.
My first impression of SD was that it seemed less like the Kung Fu that I had seen and more like an “American” style of Karate, and at its core, I believe that’s what SD truly is – an American style of Karate. I can see a lot of Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu, and Taekwondo aspects in the system, with a little bit of some different Kung Fu (broad term, I know) structures thrown in as well. GM Sin’s explanation for this is that all other arts evolved from SD and that’s why you see these other styles in the SD system but that simply just doesn’t make sense. Although true that Okinawan Karate did evolve from Shaolin Kung Fu and Taekwondo from Okinawan Karate, traditional Kung Fu schools don’t teach those styles of forms… In fact, before he started using the term “Shaolin-Do”, Sin The’ called his art “The Sin The’ Karate Club”. I’ve seen some patches and certificates floating around over the years with that name on it and his school in Lexington is still called the Sin The’ Karate School”. He also had a program on Kentucky Educational TV many years ago with his brother Hiang that was called “Karate with Sin and Hiang The’”… So my theory is that when the Karate craze of the 80s became big he was looking for a way to make his art stand out and so he invented the Shaolin-Do name and story as a way to market his system. From the very beginning I didn’t put much weight into the whole story and it didn’t matter to me since I was there to learn self-defense and stay in shape regardless of the “history” of the art. I’ve always lived by the motto “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is”, and that’s the case with SD’s history.
I really enjoyed my first few months of training. It reminded me a lot of how my Goju-Ryu Karate classes were conducted. We’d start with a warmup for 10-15 minutes, work on our forms (kata) for 20-30 minutes, and then usually we’d work on application of the forms. I’ve read a lot of stories from former students saying they never were shown any applications and that they were just drilled repetitively on forms but that certainly wasn’t/isn’t the case with my school. A great deal of time was spent on learning basic punching/kicking techniques and stances. I didn’t have much trouble with that since I’ve studied other martial arts before and already had a decent knowledge of how to throw different strikes and stand in certain stances. We have sparring as a separate class at least twice or more a month where we spar each other and also work on actually learning sparring techniques; not just dancing around each other throwing our arms and legs at each other. We also have “free gym time” where we can come in and work on our material in an informal manner, either with an instructor or without, and get additional help from an instructor if we need it, or just to workout. A lot of us use the time for working on new applications or preparing for an upcoming test. There isn’t an additional price for it either so I make as much use of it as I can.
For the lower belts (white – green), the testing period is usually anywhere from 3-6 months per belt depending on the student and THEIR willingness to commit. At black belt level the time between tests must be a minimum of the number of years relevant to the next rank (so from first-second black it’s a minimum of 2 years and so on). Students aren’t allowed to test until they’re ready and even then they have to pass a “pre-test” before being allowed to even take the actual test in front of one of the Masters or Grandmaster Sin himself. Yes, I have seen several students fail their pretest and/or actual test, and even though I hate to see someone fail, it does make me happy to see that students aren’t just given belts for being there and have to work for their achievements. I myself would much rather fail a test because I deserved to rather than pass a test I didn’t deserve. The tests always include form, conditioning, self-defense (form application), and sparring. The further up in rank you go the more is expected of you during testing. By the time you test for first black they basically throw everything at you including sparring multiple opponents at the same time. If at any test you don’t seem to know your material and/or aren’t able to actually APPLY what you’ve learned you’ll fail your test; again I’ve actually seen people fail. We’ve lost a few students due to this who basically wanted to be handed their next rank just because they were able to do a few forms from start to finish and make them look pretty but couldn’t actually USE what they had learned. Although we have the philosophy that everyone is there to train for different reasons, this is still a martial art they’re learning and as such they should be able to apply what they’ve learned rather than just go through the motions to get a good workout. There is a testing fee but I haven’t ever felt it was unreasonable; usually around $50 and I think it’s even less for the kids. No one is ever forced to test and we’ve had several students through the years who didn’t feel they were ready to test sometimes even though they had met the requirements so they waited. They were never pressured to test and I’ve always had a lot of respect for students who are willing to wait. GM Sin usually conducts 1 or 2 of the tests per year and teaches a seminar afterwards. The seminar fees are usually $50 or so and they last 3-4 hours, although truthfully, at least half this time is spent with him just talking about something outrageous. Again, no one is forced or pressured to take the seminars and most of the time we have only 8-10 who actually do.
(Continued In Next Post)

JCBG

07-16-2019, 12:37 PM

(Continued From Previous Post)

Our instructor was/is very honest with us. He’s told us that the history GM Sin teaches is ambiguous at best and encourages us to do our own research and not just take his or anyone else’s word on anything. He also is very encouraging of cross-training in other martial arts and will talk openly with students who currently train in other arts or who have trained in others before. We have quite a few students who also train in MMA and Jujutsu. I’ve heard a lot of stories where SD instructors tell their students that SD is the only “good” art and will defend that comes out of GM Sin’s mouth and they will shame anyone who says otherwise or who looks into other arts but it’s definitely not the case with our school. He says that more knowledge is never a bad thing and SD is a great art but NO single art has all the answers so it’s best to be well-versed. We also host tournaments and invite other schools who train in other arts, not just SD to compete and we travel to others as well.
So how effective is SD as a martial art? Well, to me it all depends on the student and instructor. If you have an instructor whose only goal is to make some money and just drills form over and over again, passes students for rank advancement even though they aren’t ready, and doesn’t take the time to work with them, then you’ll only get a very watered-down version of ANY art. Likewise, if a student only puts in the bare minimum amount of effort and doesn’t take the time to really learn his art then it’s just as bad. It’s a huge problem with martial arts schools nowadays that for every 10 students, you may have only 1 or 2 who are actually serious and dedicated to the art and want to be effective with it rather than just get a black belt. But in order to have an entire school you have to have those “lazy” students as well. It is what it is and it’s up to the instructor to make sure he’s not giving out rank to students who aren’t proficient.
To me the art is very effective but I’ve been blessed with an instructor who really cares and is honest. I also have taken the time to continue to learn and work with other students to better my skills. Luckily I haven’t had to test my abilities in an actual self-defense scenario and I hope never to have to but I do feel confident in what I’ve learned that I’d be able to defend myself if necessary but nothing is ever guaranteed no matter which art you train in. Like Mr. Miyagi says “Someone always knows more”. I’m not being cocky or arrogant but when you truly train nearly every day and put 100% effort into it it’s hard not to feel a sense of confidence. Besides the self-defense aspect of the art, since starting my training I’m in the best physical and mental shape of my life. My training is always evolving and there’s always a new goal I’m working towards.
I think if GM Sin would’ve been upfront about the art in the first place there would be a lot less people upset with the system as a whole and it would have a better name. There are many successful American Karate studios that don’t rely on absurd or fabricated stories to get and retain students. Also, his whole deal with the Soards was basically a pyramid scheme and did nothing but to help soil the name even further. From my understanding they were basically promoting as many students as they could to start schools for them and then charging commission on each student those schools had. Although it’s hard to believe anything GM Sin says now that everyone knows for sure he lied about his history, I’m not 100% sure that he really did know EVERYTHING that was going on with that whole situation but I’m sure he was making a lot of money so he turned a blind eye. Through research, it seems like the schools on the West Coast were mostly the ones that were the “McDojo” style schools but I may be speculating too much there. I’ve only visited a handful of schools on the East Coast and can safely say the ones I’ve visited or been a part of have all been the exact opposite of the stories I’ve read about the West Coast schools.
As for GM Sin himself – I’ve met him on several occasions. I’m always polite and respectful to him and I will say I have enjoyed some of the seminars I’ve taken from him. Again, I’m in no way defending him or his lies and I don’t buy into the whole history or the claims he makes about himself but I wouldn’t be where I am today if he hadn’t started SD to begin with. One of the biggest issues I’ve found with him is that he has this “legend status” that follows him everywhere. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard somebody tell me something like “Somebody told me they saw GM Sin doing [insert any ridiculous ability here]” or “A friend of a friend told me GM Sin did such and such”. The problem is YOU never actually see him doing any of these things he supposedly does; it’s all just knowledge passed around from person to person. I have yet to find anyone in the SD system who has actually SEEN GM Sin doing any of these outrageous things he tells people he can do. He’s a very nice man but obviously full of himself and if you’ve ever attended one of his seminars you’ll find that over half of the time spent is him talking about himself and something he has done. He also stated in his deposition that he hadn’t taught classes on a regular basis since the early 90s or something like that. It’s interesting to me he stopped teaching regular classes at such a young age; there must be some reason why. Again, I don’t think this makes the art any less effective, but it does make it look bad.
I think the lawsuit against Rydberg was a terrible idea and ended up hurting GM Sin in the long run. You can’t claim ancient origin and then try to copyright it. It’s like trying to copyright Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc and then telling other musicians they can no longer perform their songs. I’ve read the deposition and even though it wasn’t a real shock for me to find out the curriculum was made up it does still bother me that he lied to SO MANY people. I’d be willing to bet that there were a LOT of students throughout the years who took SD classes specifically because of the fabricated history they were told. I’m actually surprised at how readily he admitted he made it up. * I do have to state that it was the CURRICULUM and HISTORY that was made up. The techniques are very real (whatever their origin) and as I said above, can be very effective if YOU train properly. Technically, every form from every system was made up by somebody* He was very candid during his deposition and the only other thing I would’ve liked to have known is where he actually got his material from or what arts he actually studied because it obviously isn’t “authentic” Shaolin Kung Fu. Rydberg teaching on his own wasn’t hurting him at all and from what I understand he wasn’t using his name or image to market his school like GM Sin claims he was. Naturally, any student is going to want to know where the instructor learned his art and it’s not copyright infringement just to tell your students you learned something from somebody.
So all in all, other than the history and GM Sin’s absurd claims about himself, my experience with SD has been well worth it. If you take it for what it is – an American style of Karate basically, then it’s a very good system to train in. You also have to have the right instructor and the right school, which is true for any martial art. I do feel like the curriculum is relevant the way it’s laid out – It starts with basic techniques and forms and then moves into advanced material as you go up in rank. Each rank comes with a specific conditioning set to help you get/stay in shape which is helpful. It’s an eclectic blend of martial arts to say the least.
If you’ve taken the time to read this entire post I sincerely thank you. I want to reiterate that I’m in no way, shape, or form defending GM Sin or what he has said; only offering my personal experience with Shaolin-Do. I understand there were a LOT of bad schools and instructors out there, mostly on the West Coast and that those coupled with GM Sin’s outright lies have tainted the name of an otherwise effective system.

bodhi warrior

07-18-2019, 05:25 PM

JCBG

07-19-2019, 04:45 AM

Great post. I have had the luck of studying with a very practical teacher. I still practice the material up to black belt and find it very rewarding and useful. I would have studied with my teacher regardless of the stories. I loved his teaching style and focus on sparring and conditioning. This was in the late 80’s.
As far as seeing Sin The’ perform anything remarkable...I have the old KET series. There’s a part where Sin is teaching sparring technique #17. When he done it in real time I had to rewind it around 10 times because I couldn’t believe how fast it was. It was impressive. I’m like you, they shouldn’t have told all those crazy history stories. But the techniques can and will work. As far as Internal material, I’ve only met a handful of people who could properly demonstrate and use the techniques. And they were guys with decades in the system. Personally I think there’s too much material. But that’s just me.

I definitely agree about there being too much material - Everything else aside, that is one of the flaws in the system imo. Our instructor has always told us to find which forms/systems speak to us the most and focus on those ones more than others. I too practice most of the empty hand forms up to 1st black and find the applications very useful and practical. I've actually stopped caring about rank advancement altogether and shifted my focus towards perfecting what I've already learned. I never was much into the weapons except for staff.

Djuan

07-19-2019, 03:43 PM

JCBG

07-20-2019, 07:52 AM

I had an experience with Shaolin-do when I first moved back from Texas to California. It was a school in Livermore, CA where I was living with my uncle, and I was looking to keep going with my traditional Shaolin training. I was 20, this was 2005, and I had only been training for about 6 years. I had learned wu bu quan, xiao hong quan, qi xingg quan, and luohan shibashou, and was a intermediated sanshou student. saying that to say, I was familiar with some core foundation movements, yet had little knowledge beyond the basics, however, I could discern just fine between styles of kung fu, and styles of fighting outside of kung fu.

when I went to the school and inquired, I cant remember why, but I was given a student manual. Also, I did a sit in a couple classes, and I remember not recognizing nearly ANYthing I had been taught. so I didnt go to the school in the long run, only because it didnt appear to have what I was looking for, not because the school curriculum quality was poor.
now in the classes I saw, they had open practice for a half hour at the end of their sessions, and I will never forget this kid, had to be about 16 or 17 at the most, and he stayed both days drilling his forms. when I say it was one of the strongest performances I've ever seen and felt. I've seen so much kung fu so its hard to put it in scope for you, it was great tho, kid made the walls crack when he exhaled. Now, mcdojo haters and chewbacca pictures aside, Im not into shaolin-do by any means, .... Im sort of Shaolin purist, on account of Ch'an, and Chanwuyi being the 360 of Shaolin teaching, so I cant support the school in that way. However, martial arts is martial arts, and when its good its good. I've seen some good fighters come out of these schools (and crappy ones), so I cant totally negate the system.

Honestly find a style and train it till you cant move, train with all your heart, and the style wont fail you, no martial art is totally crap, if you apply yourself. Now if you want to practice some traditional style, and know the lineage and all that, thats fine too, that takes more study, more commitment, and you have to become a scholar of your school as well (which if you love it you wont mind putting that extra work in), and put the puzzle together .
find a style that fits you best....you might want to practice Shorinji, or Silat, or Muay Boran, or Bak Sil Lum, who knows where you will find yourself. What you dont want to do is become a blind follower defending history that you cant verify with real scholars, or fighter who cant fight with real fighters. if you take up a martial art, be sure you can back it up if you want to represent the style, and be sure you can back up the history if you are going to use the styles history to the styles benefit.
All the keyboard jutsu is not needed, theres people who know the truth and those who dont, theres a lot of people who wont waste time arguing styles at all for good reason. who cares who calls your style fake, if they arent tryong to spar to help you learn whats real, they are just mean or bored people throwing negative energy at you, stay tru to you, that stuff wont matter. do your research THOROUGHLY otherwise, and train hard, that never hurts, and both always rewards
Amituofo

I have to agree. Any style is going to be effective as long as the practitioner puts everything he/she has into it and takes the time to learn and understand it. The history/lineage of any style isn't necessarily important when it comes to actually being able to apply what you've learned anyway. Even a style of martial art that has a solid and verifiable history is worthless if practiced by somebody who doesn't take the time to actually learn how to effectively use their art. I've seen this countless times in not only SD schools but other traditional MA schools as well - There are so many students who only learn what they need to get a black belt and then they're gone. Like I said previously, a big problem I've seen in traditional MA schools these days is that you get maybe 1 or 2 out of every 10 students who is actually serious about their art and the rest are there because they want the "prestige" of wearing a gi and having a pretty belt around their waist. Whatever your style, if you train every day as if your life depends on it (because one day it very well may) then you should be an effective martial artist no matter how unbelievable your history may be.

Shaolin Wookie

07-26-2019, 09:10 AM

I had an experience with Shaolin-do when I first moved back from Texas to California. It was a school in Livermore, CA where I was living with my uncle, and I was looking to keep going with my traditional Shaolin training. I was 20, this was 2005, and I had only been training for about 6 years. I had learned wu bu quan, xiao hong quan, qi xingg quan, and luohan shibashou, and was a intermediated sanshou student. saying that to say, I was familiar with some core foundation movements, yet had little knowledge beyond the basics, however, I could discern just fine between styles of kung fu, and styles of fighting outside of kung fu.

when I went to the school and inquired, I cant remember why, but I was given a student manual. Also, I did a sit in a couple classes, and I remember not recognizing nearly ANYthing I had been taught. so I didnt go to the school in the long run, only because it didnt appear to have what I was looking for, not because the school curriculum quality was poor.
now in the classes I saw, they had open practice for a half hour at the end of their sessions, and I will never forget this kid, had to be about 16 or 17 at the most, and he stayed both days drilling his forms. when I say it was one of the strongest performances I've ever seen and felt. I've seen so much kung fu so its hard to put it in scope for you, it was great tho, kid made the walls crack when he exhaled. Now, mcdojo haters and chewbacca pictures aside, Im not into shaolin-do by any means, .... Im sort of Shaolin purist, on account of Ch'an, and Chanwuyi being the 360 of Shaolin teaching, so I cant support the school in that way. However, martial arts is martial arts, and when its good its good. I've seen some good fighters come out of these schools (and crappy ones), so I cant totally negate the system.

Honestly find a style and train it till you cant move, train with all your heart, and the style wont fail you, no martial art is totally crap, if you apply yourself. Now if you want to practice some traditional style, and know the lineage and all that, thats fine too, that takes more study, more commitment, and you have to become a scholar of your school as well (which if you love it you wont mind putting that extra work in), and put the puzzle together .
find a style that fits you best....you might want to practice Shorinji, or Silat, or Muay Boran, or Bak Sil Lum, who knows where you will find yourself. What you dont want to do is become a blind follower defending history that you cant verify with real scholars, or fighter who cant fight with real fighters. if you take up a martial art, be sure you can back it up if you want to represent the style, and be sure you can back up the history if you are going to use the styles history to the styles benefit.
All the keyboard jutsu is not needed, theres people who know the truth and those who dont, theres a lot of people who wont waste time arguing styles at all for good reason. who cares who calls your style fake, if they arent tryong to spar to help you learn whats real, they are just mean or bored people throwing negative energy at you, stay tru to you, that stuff wont matter. do your research THOROUGHLY otherwise, and train hard, that never hurts, and both always rewards
Amituofo

Agreed. Having learned some of those forms like 5 Stance fist, 18 hands (2 man form & the modern Shaolin version), and Xiao Hong Quan after I had studied SD for a decade, I can say that there wasn't much new. A high block is a high block. A low block is a low block. A straight; a cross; a hook; an uppercut; a palm strike--there wasn't much difference in striking. But I think the main critique of SD stands--it's how SD practitioners move in-between strikes (and how they butcher some of their mainstream forms [Hua Quan for instance] by making everything a punch or a kick when not every motion is a punch or a kick), or how they cross-step behind when they ought to be sitting on the rear leg: that's where SD tends to show a decline in information transmission. It's very small details in stepping, movement, stances, etc. Doesn't mean they can't come up with a rationalization. But it IS a major part of the criticism, besides its whole bizarre marketing strategy.

But it was doing the JingWu forms where what I was learning seemed a little alien to me: Gongliquan, shizizhanquan, even the Tan Tui. It was all familiar (the structure of the forms was like SD--multiple repetitions of the same techniques), but alien (probably because it's all based on their Tan Tui). ChangQuan was a major corrective, and I always had to catch bad SD habits (incorrect shifting of weight from ma bu to gong bu that I learned in SD). The idea that forms could be just for form and structure (and not just throwing a hard punch) is a very important idea that I think SD folks sometimes gloss over in defense of bad structure. I'm not saying that they're the only ones who do this. Lots of folks do it (and lots of CMA folks do it in reverse, never understanding the necessity of ugly power). But you know, I'm talking to my folks. :) It's a bad counterargument.

I can say this--with all of the people I have since studied with (in kung fu, and my taking my son to a local karate class), nobody has ever been anything but impressed with the power of my kicks and punches. LOL. SD def gets that part right.

Shaolin Wookie

07-26-2019, 09:11 AM

Interesting. Anyone know the exact origins of the form in the video?

IWUF (International Wushu Federation) 32 Form elementary sets (for beginners):

Jianshu
Qiangshu
Daoshu
Gunshu

Somehow The' wound up with the IWUF standardized wushu spear form. IWUF was formed in the early 90s. Where the IWUF got its forms (anyone can guess--probably an organization that preceded it who standardized some forms drawn from popular styles for competition) is anyone's guess. I don't think the other IWUF weapons forms were copies of any major style's weapons forms. Whatever the cases is, I would have to doubt that it came from the 70s. Some of the old-timers might be able to chime-in with accurate introduction timeframe for hte SD curriculum.

bodhi warrior

07-26-2019, 04:00 PM

IWUF (International Wushu Federation) 32 Form elementary sets (for beginners):

Jianshu
Qiangshu
Daoshu
Gunshu

Somehow The' wound up with the IWUF standardized wushu spear form. IWUF was formed in the early 90s. Where the IWUF got its forms (anyone can guess--probably an organization that preceded it who standardized some forms drawn from popular styles for competition) is anyone's guess. I don't think the other IWUF weapons forms were copies of any major style's weapons forms. Whatever the cases is, I would have to doubt that it came from the 70s. Some of the old-timers might be able to chime-in with accurate introduction timeframe for hte SD curriculum.

I know Sin The’ was teaching them in ‘84. He had an ad in inside kung fu for some week long sessions at the sports center, the spear forms being some of the forms taught. And I believe the spear forms were taught prior to the sports center being built as part of some financing effort. And I’ve seen Eric Smith demo a compilation of the forms on the KET series in 1980.

shen ku

12-23-2019, 09:34 AM

Thank you all, love the information and personal views

Purple Dinosaur

09-04-2020, 09:58 AM

JCBG

09-14-2020, 07:35 AM

Long time lurker, second time poster here.

I'm optimistic that someone is still reading this thread and can answer.

My question: what is taught after fifth black?

There are enough sixth degrees and higher who aren't running a school and haven't quit in a rage for me to assume they are getting something out of it.

I mean, if I stayed in the system 20 years (or whatever) and then for sixth black they said "do the lower belt material again ok here's your belt" I'd start sobbing or something.

When I was in the system, I saw all the core material and some optional forms up to third black. I also saw probably fifteen forms for fourth and fifth black.

The weapons and empty hand forms generally got longer or more difficult, but I didn't see anything radically different.

For sixth and higher, is it more of the same? Or is it unique? I'm not asking for secrets of the temple to be revealed ... just an idea of the training.

I've heard rumors here and there about material after 5th black but nothing definitive. My understanding of it is that after 5th black you'll start learning one or two "specialty" forms that aren't taught to lower ranks. I honestly think it's more of a time requirement than anything else. For each year of the black belt ranks you have to have the equivalent number of years before you can test to that rank. So from 1st to 2nd it's 2 years, 2nd to 3rd is 3 years, and so on... What I've always heard unofficially is that after 5th black there's not much new material but you're expected to more or less perfect what you've learned to that point. This would seem to be similar to the way many other systems treat their black belt ranks as well. Again, this is just speculation based off of things I've heard over the years so I can't say for sure, but it does make sense to me.

Shaolin Wookie

09-17-2020, 08:56 AM

Did some training over the past year in basic routines of 5 Ancestors Fist (Wuzuquan/Ngo Cho Kun).

Found a lot of interesting likenesses between that art and SD's core techniques and forms. Simple, short, square-shaped forms with lots of repetition. Not a lot of fancy footwork. Lots of transitions from ma bu or ban ma bu to gong bu. Stress on hands. Very Kata-like in execution (except for the relaxation), which makes sense bc Wuzu has a link to karate.

San Zhan--SD teaches this with a lot of tension like karate sanchin guys; but the two Fujian crane guys I've seen perform it (and learned from enough to fix the form), they did it without the dynamic tension. Their method of exhalation wasn't that SD "HISSS" between the teeth. It's straight from the gut in the way that you would try to fog the glass of a window on a cold day. SD gets the form wrong in a couple of places, including stepping and weight distribution (and breathing), and nuances of the hands, but it's still the basic pattern of San Zhan. One basic difference that is vitally important: the concavity of the chest and the rounded shoulders. You get a little of this from the dynamic tension SD teaches. BUt if you relax your shoulders and round them over, and THEN do that first finger thrust, you'll understand the difference. The way I learned their stance, it was still 60/40, but mostly back weighted. Also, on the second motion of the hands, which separate palm-up--I re-learned this as the transition between the finger thrust and the 3rd reset motion (basically Wuzu's standard/default crane position).

Si Meng Bao Lian (Four Gate Smash; beginning crane form)--looks to me like a collection of techniques from some of the simple basic forms (the 10 compulsory forms of Wuzuquan). You can see it best in 四門打角 (si meng da jiao) "Attack the Four Corners of the Gate" and the Cross-Pattern San Zhan (三战十字拳 San Zhan Shi zi Quan). Occasionally, I get an eerie feeling that I've practiced stuff before. If you try to find a form on YouTube, you might not see it well. But I can tell you, it FEELS a lot like SD and I already knew most of the techniques and transitions. Wuzu Quan was one of the eeriest "deja vu" experiences I've ever had. Not just the techniques practiced, but specifically how SD folks move between stances (halting steps and transitions that don't exactly move fluidly like traditional Longfist, which requires a much different coordination of hands and legs).

I never learned the Lohan techniques. I only learned the basics / crane. But I did see a demo of one of the Lohan forms. It did remind me a helluva lot of SD's Lohan Quan (green belt? I think).

Some of you still interested in figuring out where SD's core techniques (or SKT's original training regimen from Indonesia) came from: I can't speak for the later stuff, which I assume was all book/video learned (and maybe while on crack), but the basics do appear to be Fujian in origin. Probably related to 5 Ancestors in some way, by hook or by crook.

Anyways, just adding more info onto the flaming garbage heap of this thread. :)

Purple Dinosaur

09-19-2020, 06:53 AM

I've heard rumors here and there about material after 5th black but nothing definitive. My understanding of it is that after 5th black you'll start learning one or two "specialty" forms that aren't taught to lower ranks. I honestly think it's more of a time requirement than anything else. For each year of the black belt ranks you have to have the equivalent number of years before you can test to that rank. So from 1st to 2nd it's 2 years, 2nd to 3rd is 3 years, and so on... What I've always heard unofficially is that after 5th black there's not much new material but you're expected to more or less perfect what you've learned to that point. This would seem to be similar to the way many other systems treat their black belt ranks as well. Again, this is just speculation based off of things I've heard over the years so I can't say for sure, but it does make sense to me.

Thank you for the reply. Just toting up the numbers, the system claims a lot of forms that haven't been taught yet even if you count each short kata as one form. I hope for the sake of people who spend 30 years in the system that they learn something exciting after fifth black.

Purple Dinosaur

09-19-2020, 07:54 AM

JCBG

09-21-2020, 06:39 AM

Thank you for the reply. Just toting up the numbers, the system claims a lot of forms that haven't been taught yet even if you count each short kata as one form. I hope for the sake of people who spend 30 years in the system that they learn something exciting after fifth black.

I can't remember where I read it (maybe it was on this thread somewhere), but someone said that there is no "real" material after 5th black because GM Ie only taught Sin the material up to 5th black before he came to America. When he came to America he was only a 5th black and then later was granted the rank of 10th by Ie after he got here. All material after 5th is a few forms from notes Ie SUPPOSEDLY left for Sin before his passing. At one time GM Sin had claimed to have MASTERED over 900 forms. Now, I can believe that someone could learn 900 forms but there's a huge difference in saying you've learned something vs MASTERED it. There are many traditional martial artists who spend their entire lives trying to master only one or two forms and even then they still don't believe they've fully mastered them. So let's just for the sake of argument say that a single form takes an average of 1 minute to complete. I realize many are either more or less than this but even at 1 minute per form, practicing 900 forms would require 15 hours of work alone just to go through each form one time. And even then, just learning the movements and repetitions of a form is in no way shape or form mastery of it. To me, mastery of a form would be not only memorizing the movements, but being able to fully break the form down and explain each application and subtle nuances in complete detail. Again, this takes years to perfect. The math just doesn't add up. To get to 5th black as it stands today, the curriculum includes about 100 forms from white belt to 5th, although once you reach first black there are "required" forms and "optional" so you don't even have to necessarily learn all 100 to get to 5th black. Still, 100 is a lot more reasonable to believe than 900, but I feel like a lot of practitioners still aren't going to necessarily master them by then. If I remember right, I think when he was going through his lawsuit with Rydberg he said he only could really remember 300 of them, which is still a lot but a *little* more reasonable than 900. One thing my instructor always has told our class is to learn what you need to for rank advancement (if that's even your goal) and then find your top 5-10 forms that really speak to you and work on perfecting those, which seems consistent with the philosophy of many other martial arts styles.

The big problem with SD as I see it as far as material goes is two fold:

1. There is waaaayyyyy too much material. The argument goes that by learning from a ton of different styles and systems that it gives you plenty of movements and techniques to pull from, but as I stated above, it just makes it too difficult to really master any one form because by the time you've learned one you're moving on to the next.

2. Since there are so many different styles within SD, it really makes it difficult to focus on one specific philosophy of defense/fighting since by the time you've just learned one, you're moving on to another. So say for example you've just learned a tiger form and how the tiger is expected to fight, and then right after that you're learning a bird form and how it's expected to fight. This isn't necessarily always a bad thing but I feel like there's a reason there are entire systems dedicated to these styles alone and lumping them all together can create problems.

I do think SD is a great system if it's taught and practiced correctly. I've been practicing for over 10 years now and have mostly stopped learning new material to perfect the forms that speak to me the most and learn more from them. Less is more is a common phrase in my repertoire and something I try to live by. Having the right teacher who is proficient AND honest is crucial for any MA you study.

As for the material that hasn't been taught yet, I really can't comment on it too much just because I have no real confirmation other than what I've acquired through my own research on message boards and hearing bits and pieces floating around from others in the system over the past several years. I honestly don't even care though. At this point in my MA training I've lost interest in rank anyway but personally don't see how there could be any "better" forms up any higher in rank.

Hope this helps a little!

Shaolin Wookie

09-21-2020, 08:04 AM

I appreciate everyone who has contributed to discussion of the origin of the material. For every form short or long, only one answer can be true and these are the answers different posters have offered:

(1) It is a shaolin temple original (directly passed down a long chain to GM Ie to GM Sin)
(2) Someone from a different system taught it to GM Sin or GM Ie. GM Sin openly acknowledges that origin
(3) It was shortened or made easier by GM Sin from shaolin temple originals for impatient LARPing Westerners
(4) It was totally made up by GM Sin in the 1960s or 1970s for impatient LARPing Westerners but it teaches the lessons of the shaolin temple originals
(5) It came from a book or video or some person from outside the system and it isn't properly attributed and instead is passed off (by GM Sin or maybe it was by GM Ie instead) as a real or modified shaolin temple original

Am I missing any explanations?

Maybe we have a (6) It is a shaolin original but another system stole it (or legitimately got it through lineage) and now the other system claims shaolin do stole it.

As more and more forms are explained as a 6, and involving more and more different styles, at some point every 6 is going to suddenly look like a 5. That also makes it harder to uncover the real 1s.

1. Shaolin-Do is definitely not original material (in terms of actual forms) from Shaolin. It doesn't mean that techniques and some foundational principles are not conveyed. But it isn't THE shaoiln or even "a" shaolin. But it will be related more or less to other styles because someone taught GM Sin and GM Ie something kung-fu-ish at the Chung Yen School in Indonesia. This is now my only interest in SD, since I don't practice it. Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang are taiwanese (or more importantly, come from the Chinese nationalists who were exiled to Taiwan with the Kuomintang govt). One of them is Chin Woo (sometimes Lian Wu Zhang makes it into ChinWoo as a side-form), which means it comes from the republican era of Chinese MA (early 1900s) and can't be "original Shaolin from the Southern Temple." We can research these forms and disprove the lineage with ZERO doubt quite easily now thanks to the internet and Google Translate.

2. I doubt Shaolin-Do is a "system" in the way we would recognize it. Youtube "Siaw Lim" or "Siauw Lim" and look at the multitudes of "Shaolin" in Indonesia--all of which are some hodgepodge of Kuntao, Silat, karate, and Chinese Martial arts. Nevertheless, the core basic forms that GM Sin taught the longest actually have quite a bit of Fujian flavor to them, as a distillation of techniques, and therefore are closest in originality to the kung fu/kuntao he probably learned in Indonesia--whatever that hodgepodge was.

3. GM Sin did not "shorten" or "make easier" any originals. In my opinion, he made them harder and worse; and if he did "shorten" them with this intention, it was because he wasn't competent to teach them. I think Siu Meng Bao Lieh is a decent form that simplifies Fujian kung fu and passes on the sequences of its "Se Mun" forms (see Goh/Ngo Cho Kun). But I'm betting that distillation came from one of his teachers, and not GM Sin--given that it is so good as a distillation of Fujian techniques. But this "he made it easier" explanation is false. Westerners can learn Tan Tui, Jie Quan, and Lian Wu Zhang without having the techniques shortened and made simpler. Though that first judgment sounds harsh, here is why I am so harsh: Lian Wu Zhang (his brown belt form) is actually a 2 person form (dui lian) practiced in Taiwan, sometimes called Martial Arts Sparring Palm because the chinese characters for 連五掌"5 Continuous Plams" (lian wu zhang) and 練武掌對打 "MArtial Arts Sparring Palm" (lian wu zhang dui lian) sound pretty close if passed on orally. The difference between them is simply tonal on the "a" in Lian and "u" in Wu; this turns "Continuous" (lian) into "Art" and "Five" (wu) into "Martial" (as in Wu-shu). Lian Wu Zhang teaches VERY basic techniques as a two-person form. I've been practicing the corrected version for 4 years. It's the same form, just "un-fu*&ed" from whatever GM Sin did to it when passing it on. The form is patterned to teach basic techniques, and the "fu*&ed" version he teaches confounds one's ability to apply those techniques when the second partner is standing there with you doing the other side of the form (There aren't many well-performed sets on YOUTUBE, but here's one demo from some kids (kid in white hoodie is doing SD's version correctly, but also at a beginner level): https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=8&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&edufilter=NULL&t=0s&v=TrNyyBpPOJ4). Another version from the 高芳先 Gāo Fāng-Xiān lineage pretty identical to the one I learned: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=4&edufilter=NULL&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&v=pdfh9jqapII). I can tell you, having practiced this form for years--it is the same form. But where GM Sin shotgunned in some solutions to the form, he lost the techniques and principles of the second partner. In sum, Westerners can do Chinese MA as long as the teacher is competent.

4. It was "totally made up." More likely, it was his attempt to teach what he originally learned, and which was not well-systematized in Indonesia. He then wanted to build on that, or else he got bored. He had some natural athletic talent, was ****ty at forms; but somehow decided to make forms his thing. The rest is ****ty marketing.

5. The new forms came from videos, very likely (Qiang Shu/White Ape Mantis & 7-star). The rest was created from his base of knowledge. His Liu Shing and Ching Pao-- they're definitely not learned from video or chopped up from videos. They're his originals. His 7 Star is shotgunned in places and missing the subtleties of technique. How much anyone values what Sin created very much depends on how competent and trustworthy one finds GM Sin. Given the misrepresentation in advertising, that's not much. Also, his tai chi and bagua are really bad. So is his brother's.

None of these are intended to say that the The' brothers can't fight and weren't strong guys, and couldn't teach people to punch and kick. They could. And they could do it well. But based on what I've seen firsthand...their "Chinese" kung fu is pretty bad and not very "Chinese," and unfortunately what was pretty good is also what was pretty ****ed basic. They should have stuck with what they had learned instead of building up a bad marketing strategy and then adding 5,000 forms to back up the marketing instead of being honest. The more complex forms are often done wrong and have shotgunned sequences placed into the cracks in memory like silly putty holding the forms together.

None of this means that SD can't teach you to fight. It can. It does mean that SD is an "original" art in the sense that it was created by Sin The and his brother from whatever their basic studies were. The rest is dishonest in its presentation, and sometimes in its composition. You could create an application for the shotgunned sequences in Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang. I did that as a student. But they're not the forms that go by the name utilized, even though the forms move in the shadows of the originals.

JCBG

09-21-2020, 01:08 PM

1. Shaolin-Do is definitely not original material (in terms of actual forms) from Shaolin. It doesn't mean that techniques and some foundational principles are not conveyed. But it isn't THE shaoiln or even "a" shaolin. But it will be related more or less to other styles because someone taught GM Sin and GM Ie something kung-fu-ish at the Chung Yen School in Indonesia. This is now my only interest in SD, since I don't practice any of it except Black Tiger and Si Meng Bao Lian (although I do practice the Jing Wu versions of its pirated forms). Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang are taiwanese (or more importantly, come from the Chinese nationalists who were exiled to Taiwan with the Kuomintang govt). One of them is Chin Woo (sometimes Lian Wu Zhang makes it into ChinWoo as a side-form), which means it comes from the republican era of Chinese MA (early 1900s) and can't be "original Shaolin from the Southern Temple." We can research these forms and disprove the lineage with ZERO doubt quite easily now thanks to the internet and Google Translate.

2. I doubt Shaolin-Do is a "system" in the way we would recognize it. Youtube "Siaw Lim" or "Siauw Lim" and look at the multitudes of "Shaolin" in Indonesia--all of which are some hodgepodge of Kuntao, Silat, karate, and Chinese Martial arts. Nevertheless, the core basic forms that GM Sin taught the longest actually have quite a bit of Fujian flavor to them, as a distillation of techniques, and therefore are closest in originality to the kung fu/kuntao he probably learned in Indonesia--whatever that hodgepodge was.

3. GM Sin did not "shorten" or "make easier" any originals. In my opinion, he made them harder and worse; and if he did "shorten" them with this intention, it was because he was a bad teacher. I think Siu Meng Bao Lieh is a decent form that simplifies Fujian kung fu and passes on the sequences of its "Se Mun" forms (see Goh/Ngo Cho Kun). But I'm betting that distillation came from one of his teachers, and not GM Sin--given that it is so good as a distillation of Fujian techniques. But this "he made it easier" explanation is false. Westerners can learn Tan Tui, Jie Quan, and Lian Wu Zhang without having the techniques shortened and made simpler. Though that first judgment sounds harsh, here is why I am so harsh: Lian Wu Zhang (his brown belt form) is actually a 2 person form (dui lian) practiced in Taiwan, sometimes called Martial Arts Sparring Palm because the chinese characters for 連五掌"5 Continuous Plams" (lian wu zhang) and 練武掌對打 "MArtial Arts Sparring Palm" (lian wu zhang dui lian) sound pretty close if passed on orally. The difference between them is simply tonal on the "a" in Lian and "u" in Wu; this turns "Continuous" (lian) into "Art" and "Five" (wu) into "Martial" (as in Wu-shu). Lian Wu Zhang teaches VERY basic techniques as a two-person form. I've been practicing the corrected version for 4 years. It's the same form, just "un-fu*&ed" from whatever GM Sin did to it when passing it on. The form is patterned to teach basic techniques, and the "fu*&ed" version he teaches confounds one's ability to apply those techniques when the second partner is standing there with you doing the other side of the form (There aren't many well-performed sets on YOUTUBE, but here's one demo from some kids (kid in white hoodie is doing SD's version correctly, but also at a beginner level): https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=8&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&edufilter=NULL&t=0s&v=TrNyyBpPOJ4). Another version from the 高芳先 Gāo Fāng-Xiān lineage pretty identical to the one I learned: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=4&edufilter=NULL&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&v=pdfh9jqapII). I can tell you, having practiced this form for years--it is the same form. But where GM Sin shotgunned in some solutions to the form, he lost the techniques and principles of the second partner. In sum, Westerners can do Chinese MA. I picked up longfist and Jing Wu at 30 no problem, as well as Liangyi, and vastly improved my flexibility and stances, etc.. If #3 were an excuse anyone felt justified in offering, it's an excuse that is just as easily explained by "bad teaching." Some very good fighters are also ****ty teachers. Good fighters/good teachers: One doesn't preclude the other, nor yet does it presume the other. I can say that Mullins, Nance, and Reid were the best I saw, from top-to-bottom, and I value every lesson I took from them.

4. It was "totally made up." More likely, it was his attempt to teach what he originally learned, and which was not well-systematized in Indonesia. The rest is ****ty marketing.

5. The new forms came from videos, very likely (Qiang Shu/White Ape Mantis & 7-star). The rest was created from his base of knowledge. And I get it--if he were honest. He was geographically isolated and kung fu is a more recent phenomnenon in MA. If he wanted to teach forms learned via video, he could have. He should've just done that. But he represented it one way and did something else. His Liu Shing and Ching Pao--they probably aren't useless. But they're definitely not learned from video or chopped up from videos. They're his originals. I think they're pretty bad, as far as forms and demos go. His 7 Star is shotgunned in places. I know this now. I didn't know it back then. I studied the 14 roads of 7 star tan tui. The BASIC techniques (Guo Lo Cai Shou/alternately Bung, forgive sp. not gonna check it now) get turned into 2 motions instead of delineating a chain of techniques, etc. The 7 hands and 8 hands is pretty ****ed good, tho. How much anyone values what Sin created very much depends on how competent and trustworthy one finds GM Sin. Given the misrepresentation in advertising, that's not much. Also, his tai chi and bagua are really bad. So is his brother's and the elder masters'. I'm not saying they can't hit hard or apply what they know. I'm saying they can't demo the basic principles (outside of a handful of guys who are quite excellent, including a former SD teacher of mine who is AMAZING). But I can tell you this--as a student I was always in a weird place because my teacher was 10000X better at Tai chi and Bagua than GM Sin and the Elder Masters. Why? He knew the princples and executed them flawlessly. But that DIDN'T come from his teachers. It couldn't have. They hadn't mastered them or shown an ability to display them. (NOt looking to stir up any beef in SD, in which I play no part. This is MY evaluation, and why I left. I wanted to learn something I could pass on with pride).

None of these are intended to say that the The' brothers can't fight and weren't strong guys, and couldn't teach people to punch and kick. They could. And they could do it well. But based on what I've seen firsthand...their "Chinese" kung fu is pretty bad and not very "Chinese," and unfortunately what was pretty good is also what was pretty ****ed basic. They should have stuck with what they had learned instead of building up a bad marketing strategy and then adding 5,000 forms to back up the marketing instead of being honest. The more complex forms are often done wrong and have shotgunned sequences placed into the cracks in memory like silly putty holding the forms together. If you have the chance to study outside of the art, it can be very enlightening. And I've been lucky enough to come across a couple of arts that are pretty parallel to SD. Jing Wu is one. 5 Ancestors is another. Some of the Longfist is, as well. Chen/Yang Tai Chi/Bagua (CMC's 37 posture Yang and Jiang Rong Qiao's NEW style bagua) are better learned from good teachers. I fixed mine with the assistance of video instruction, tips/seminars from competent instructors who KNOW the principles, and worked them into a respectable state. Seminars/workshops will put you in contact with some good practitioners and training partners. I don't have a lineage for those arts now. But I'm proud of my competence to display and explain the principles, now.

None of this means that SD can't teach you to fight. It can. And I still utilize many of those foundations everywhere I go. It does mean that SD is an "original" art in the sense that it was created by Sin The and his brother from whatever their basic studies were. The rest is dishonest in its presentation, and sometimes in its composition. You could create an application for the shotgunned sequences in Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang. I did that as a student. But they're not the forms that go by the name utilized, even though the forms move in the shadows of the originals.

Wow Shaolin Wookie, this is one of the best posts I've read on this thread! Thanks for your insight. I tend to agree with what you've said and as a longtime practitioner of SD, I do believe the art CAN be effective IF properly trained. Great post!

Shaolin Wookie

09-22-2020, 07:54 AM

Wow Shaolin Wookie, this is one of the best posts I've read on this thread! Thanks for your insight. I tend to agree with what you've said and as a longtime practitioner of SD, I do believe the art CAN be effective IF properly trained. Great post!

Probably not. :) Thanks tho.

I think once you've PRACTICED the difference between the original version of a form and the changed version (as in JQ and LWZ), you realize exactly how and why the forms were changed. Different foundations (and a lack of the proper ones). For Example: One of the opening motions of Jie Quan comes from 12 ROADS Tan Tui #3 劈砸 (Pi Za) SPLIT & CRUSH. This motion is featured in quite a few of the basic 10 Chinwoo Forms, and also occurs twice in the most basic form of Chinwoo, Gong Li Quan (Power Fist). This motion, like Tan Tui #4, is one of the more subtle and difficult Tan Tui motions (and also more abstract on the face of it). Pi Za: https://www.youtube.com/watch?edufilter=NULL&v=eyxzknCNa1M. It's easy to do physically, but more difficult to do with perfect balance, and form etc. Tan Tui isn't even, on the face of it or in its purpose, a martial form. It teaches foundations and principles of moving etc. This is why it features a toe-kick that stretches the hamstring and steps straight up instead of snap kicking. It aligns your leg to land in perfect placement for a transition into a horst stance. That's also why it kicks below the waist, usually, with a flat foot. It's as much a step as it is a kick. But as one instructor told me: "It's springy legs, not springy kicks. So stop kicking). :) SD folks would likely look at it and say: "that's flowery legs and embroidered kicks" because they never learned that foundational principle, which is actually MORE important than learning to throw a good snap kick with power. Get that position / balance right every day in practice, and your snap kick will be better than any SD practitioner going forward. My kicks are better BECAUSE of Tan Tui. You have to learn both, and you can learn them in separate order (kick, then Tan Tui). But your kung fu needs both.

If you'd never done Tan Tui and rep'd out #3 a thousand times, and you tried picking up Jie Quan from a video or some other means, you might try to turn it into a hammer-fist into the palm, a xie bue (cross-stance) elbow, and a backwards elbow in a bow stance. Why? Because you'd never done Tan Tui. See [2:42-2:54]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?edufilter=NULL&v=FT4OwZyVqzk. Then see [0:09 - 0:12] of Jie Quan (forgive the wushuized version of Chinwoo here, but it is an excellent demo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?edufilter=NULL&v=cQz9taUeDu0)

You can certainly do what SD teaches in its 3-motions for 1 Tan Tui exchange. It's just not Jie Quan anymore, because it's not even in the same lineage of the form that's being taught. It doesn't stress the transitions you practiced in Tan Tui to begin with. It's true, SD's Jie Quan IS rooted in SD's short forms, perhaps more than any other form taught. But it's not Jie Quan at that point. It's something else. It has different roots and the same name, even if it moves "like" Jie Quan. It's like dancing a Tango with a Waltz's footsteps. It's just not connected at all, which is kind of ironic for "Interconnected fist." Lol.

Shaolin Wookie

09-22-2020, 08:19 AM

JCBG

09-22-2020, 09:03 AM

One of the other interesting things about Lian Wu Zhang. When I was taught in SD, it was stressed that as you execute the spinning motions, you should form an "X" with your hands and keep the motion on a horizontal plane, instead of the big wheeling circles that have a vertical element with the leading hand that you see in the free form I posted before. The "X" is actually a characteristic of the two-man form, and not the free form. And neither one keeps the circling of the hands on a horizontal (level with ground) plane. There are lots of hints in the forms that peek through to show their parentage. When you do the form correctly, however, some of the motions get easier.

For example, think of the double-smash (whirlwind) kick at the end of one of the lines that then immediately transitions into a backsweep. Lots of good practitioners in SD struggle with that motion. Why? Because it's practiced incorrectly. See here at [00:26 - 00:30]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?edufilter=NULL&list=PLECDBAEDD45D62E5A&v=pdfh9jqapII. It's not your fault if you can't do it clean. And if you can, congrats. I was always able to, but it felt weird. Why would you smash kick and immediately backsweep without a pause? But there is still a better way with cleaner technique. They're connected in the form, but not in the application.

Anyways, food for thought. I'll probably check back in on this thread at some point. LOLz. I don't remember the SD forms anymore, but I remember the "OHHHHHHHHH! That's what that was supposed to be" moments when picking up the Chinwoo originals of the forms.

Keep practicing. :)

This is why I love coming to this forum, because I'm continually learning so much! It's amazing to me this thread has been around as long as it has, LOL!
When I learned the form I didn't learn to execute the hands in an "X" but more like a double side hand strike with the left hand slightly extended out in front of the right. That's another one of SD's big weaknesses - There are so many deviations on form and technique from school to school. I remember the first time I saw students from another school doing the same rank advancement I was doing and it looked significantly different, although you could see the same "thought" and principles behind them. I asked my instructor about it later and he said that's a common issue with our system. I also see that other schools teach material for rank advancement at different times. Some schools teach Black Tiger Flies Out of the Cave at yellow belt and others at blue. It's the same with the brown belt forms as well. It doesn't make sense to me but I really try not to look too much into it since I don't attend other schools and just focus on mine.

Thanks for the YouTube links, I've enjoyed watching the videos! You can definitely see some similarities but tons of differences.

As a side note, I do believe effective applications can still be found from the techniques in most SD forms regardless of if they're "knock offs" of original forms. The problem is that many of the SD students AND instructors don't bother to learn them, or if they do learn them they don't practice them enough to become effective with them, so a watered-down martial art keeps getting passed down through the generations. It's not ALWAYS their fault as their instructor likely didn't take the time to teach them either, but I do feel like that at some point in a martial artist's training he/she is responsible for themselves and should be taking the time to learn them. I've heard some stories (sadly) about students asking their instructors, some of them even high ranking instructors, for explanation of form application only to be told that they either "aren't allowed to tell them" or "just think about it". I think if you're going to teach a martial art you should not only be able to answer questions about applications and demonstrate them, but you should also routinely make it a part of your classes. This is one of the main reasons I've stopped worrying about rank altogether. A lot of my training time now is spent dissecting forms and finding applications; seeing what works and what doesn't, testing some of them during sparring practice, etc. Luckily for me, our school incorporates application practice into many of our classes. That's the fun part to me! It's also something that IS required as part of rank advancement tests. I've seen students fail tests because, although they could do perform a form as beautifully as Jet Li in a classic Kung Fu action movie, they failed to be able to apply what they learned in application.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else that's trained in SD had ever been taught application as well. I know it seems there are more schools that haven't than have :/

Purple Dinosaur

09-23-2020, 06:37 AM

1. Shaolin-Do is definitely not original material (in terms of actual forms) from Shaolin. It doesn't mean that techniques and some foundational principles are not conveyed. But it isn't THE shaoiln or even "a" shaolin. But it will be related more or less to other styles because someone taught GM Sin and GM Ie something kung-fu-ish at the Chung Yen School in Indonesia. This is now my only interest in SD, since I don't practice it. Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang are taiwanese (or more importantly, come from the Chinese nationalists who were exiled to Taiwan with the Kuomintang govt). One of them is Chin Woo (sometimes Lian Wu Zhang makes it into ChinWoo as a side-form), which means it comes from the republican era of Chinese MA (early 1900s) and can't be "original Shaolin from the Southern Temple." We can research these forms and disprove the lineage with ZERO doubt quite easily now thanks to the internet and Google Translate.

2. I doubt Shaolin-Do is a "system" in the way we would recognize it. Youtube "Siaw Lim" or "Siauw Lim" and look at the multitudes of "Shaolin" in Indonesia--all of which are some hodgepodge of Kuntao, Silat, karate, and Chinese Martial arts. Nevertheless, the core basic forms that GM Sin taught the longest actually have quite a bit of Fujian flavor to them, as a distillation of techniques, and therefore are closest in originality to the kung fu/kuntao he probably learned in Indonesia--whatever that hodgepodge was.

3. GM Sin did not "shorten" or "make easier" any originals. In my opinion, he made them harder and worse; and if he did "shorten" them with this intention, it was because he wasn't competent to teach them. I think Siu Meng Bao Lieh is a decent form that simplifies Fujian kung fu and passes on the sequences of its "Se Mun" forms (see Goh/Ngo Cho Kun). But I'm betting that distillation came from one of his teachers, and not GM Sin--given that it is so good as a distillation of Fujian techniques. But this "he made it easier" explanation is false. Westerners can learn Tan Tui, Jie Quan, and Lian Wu Zhang without having the techniques shortened and made simpler. Though that first judgment sounds harsh, here is why I am so harsh: Lian Wu Zhang (his brown belt form) is actually a 2 person form (dui lian) practiced in Taiwan, sometimes called Martial Arts Sparring Palm because the chinese characters for 連五掌"5 Continuous Plams" (lian wu zhang) and 練武掌對打 "MArtial Arts Sparring Palm" (lian wu zhang dui lian) sound pretty close if passed on orally. The difference between them is simply tonal on the "a" in Lian and "u" in Wu; this turns "Continuous" (lian) into "Art" and "Five" (wu) into "Martial" (as in Wu-shu). Lian Wu Zhang teaches VERY basic techniques as a two-person form. I've been practicing the corrected version for 4 years. It's the same form, just "un-fu*&ed" from whatever GM Sin did to it when passing it on. The form is patterned to teach basic techniques, and the "fu*&ed" version he teaches confounds one's ability to apply those techniques when the second partner is standing there with you doing the other side of the form (There aren't many well-performed sets on YOUTUBE, but here's one demo from some kids (kid in white hoodie is doing SD's version correctly, but also at a beginner level): https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=8&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&edufilter=NULL&t=0s&v=TrNyyBpPOJ4). Another version from the 高芳先 Gāo Fāng-Xiān lineage pretty identical to the one I learned: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?index=4&edufilter=NULL&list=PLnJsKImI9yb7heaawCNnAxRh1CDcwrpQa&v=pdfh9jqapII). I can tell you, having practiced this form for years--it is the same form. But where GM Sin shotgunned in some solutions to the form, he lost the techniques and principles of the second partner. In sum, Westerners can do Chinese MA as long as the teacher is competent.

4. It was "totally made up." More likely, it was his attempt to teach what he originally learned, and which was not well-systematized in Indonesia. He then wanted to build on that, or else he got bored. He had some natural athletic talent, was ****ty at forms; but somehow decided to make forms his thing. The rest is ****ty marketing.

5. The new forms came from videos, very likely (Qiang Shu/White Ape Mantis & 7-star). The rest was created from his base of knowledge. His Liu Shing and Ching Pao-- they're definitely not learned from video or chopped up from videos. They're his originals. His 7 Star is shotgunned in places and missing the subtleties of technique. How much anyone values what Sin created very much depends on how competent and trustworthy one finds GM Sin. Given the misrepresentation in advertising, that's not much. Also, his tai chi and bagua are really bad. So is his brother's.

None of these are intended to say that the The' brothers can't fight and weren't strong guys, and couldn't teach people to punch and kick. They could. And they could do it well. But based on what I've seen firsthand...their "Chinese" kung fu is pretty bad and not very "Chinese," and unfortunately what was pretty good is also what was pretty ****ed basic. They should have stuck with what they had learned instead of building up a bad marketing strategy and then adding 5,000 forms to back up the marketing instead of being honest. The more complex forms are often done wrong and have shotgunned sequences placed into the cracks in memory like silly putty holding the forms together.

None of this means that SD can't teach you to fight. It can. It does mean that SD is an "original" art in the sense that it was created by Sin The and his brother from whatever their basic studies were. The rest is dishonest in its presentation, and sometimes in its composition. You could create an application for the shotgunned sequences in Jie Quan and Lian Wu Zhang. I did that as a student. But they're not the forms that go by the name utilized, even though the forms move in the shadows of the originals.

Thank you for the reply and the detailed form comparisons.

My list of 6 explanations wasn't meant to say that they were all true.

The list was the 6 possibilities that I have seen offered that *possibly* could be true for any given form.

Separate from what is "true," I don't even know what the current official explanation from Shaolin Do even **is** for the lower belt forms.

Let's take the short kata. Or the first two long forms. Officially: Were they taught in the temple? Did GM Sin make them up for instructional purposes (influenced by temple forms)? Did he adapt them from longer temple forms, for instructional purposes?

I enjoyed my time in Shaolin Do. I want to believe its claims! But whatever the official explanation is, this forum has many examples (such as your posts) that suggest explanation #5, which is that many forms came from somewhere besides direct temple lineage to GM Ie and then GM Sin whether or not they were then adapted.

I don't (and can't) dispute any of your comparisons. You also said "Shaolin-Do is definitely not original material (in terms of actual forms) from Shaolin." I wonder however if there isn't a core of some Shaolin descended material that GM Ie acquired (whether from GM Su or somewhere else if there was no GM Su).

The problem is finding what that core would be.

If it is only in material that hasn't been taught publicly then that's not much of a selling point for the average student.

Purple Dinosaur

09-23-2020, 07:18 AM

This is why I love coming to this forum, because I'm continually learning so much! It's amazing to me this thread has been around as long as it has, LOL!
When I learned the form I didn't learn to execute the hands in an "X" but more like a double side hand strike with the left hand slightly extended out in front of the right. That's another one of SD's big weaknesses - There are so many deviations on form and technique from school to school. I remember the first time I saw students from another school doing the same rank advancement I was doing and it looked significantly different, although you could see the same "thought" and principles behind them. I asked my instructor about it later and he said that's a common issue with our system. I also see that other schools teach material for rank advancement at different times. Some schools teach Black Tiger Flies Out of the Cave at yellow belt and others at blue. It's the same with the brown belt forms as well. It doesn't make sense to me but I really try not to look too much into it since I don't attend other schools and just focus on mine.

Thanks for the YouTube links, I've enjoyed watching the videos! You can definitely see some similarities but tons of differences.

As a side note, I do believe effective applications can still be found from the techniques in most SD forms regardless of if they're "knock offs" of original forms. The problem is that many of the SD students AND instructors don't bother to learn them, or if they do learn them they don't practice them enough to become effective with them, so a watered-down martial art keeps getting passed down through the generations. It's not ALWAYS their fault as their instructor likely didn't take the time to teach them either, but I do feel like that at some point in a martial artist's training he/she is responsible for themselves and should be taking the time to learn them. I've heard some stories (sadly) about students asking their instructors, some of them even high ranking instructors, for explanation of form application only to be told that they either "aren't allowed to tell them" or "just think about it". I think if you're going to teach a martial art you should not only be able to answer questions about applications and demonstrate them, but you should also routinely make it a part of your classes. This is one of the main reasons I've stopped worrying about rank altogether. A lot of my training time now is spent dissecting forms and finding applications; seeing what works and what doesn't, testing some of them during sparring practice, etc. Luckily for me, our school incorporates application practice into many of our classes. That's the fun part to me! It's also something that IS required as part of rank advancement tests. I've seen students fail tests because, although they could do perform a form as beautifully as Jet Li in a classic Kung Fu action movie, they failed to be able to apply what they learned in application.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else that's trained in SD had ever been taught application as well. I know it seems there are more schools that haven't than have :/

Because of business travel I saw a lot of Shaolin Do schools if only for a couple of classes at a time.

Some were Soard-affiliated and some were Leonard-affiliated.

It was surprising how differently the forms were taught between the Soard and Leonard schools. It's been a long time but I remember more consistency among Leonard schools than among Soard schools.

I was taught applications for forms but they weren't often practiced in class. I remember more applications taught in Leonard schools than Soard schools.

My impression was that few students practiced forms outside of class. So a typical class became exercise (warmups and workouts), reviewing past forms, learning new forms, sparring. Doesn't leave a lot of classtime to work on live applications. But class is the one time that you have partners to practice those!

And as you say, the constant stream of new forms makes it hard to refine application and technique from prior ones.

JCBG

09-23-2020, 10:49 AM

Because of business travel I saw a lot of Shaolin Do schools if only for a couple of classes at a time.

Some were Soard-affiliated and some were Leonard-affiliated.

It was surprising how differently the forms were taught between the Soard and Leonard schools. It's been a long time but I remember more consistency among Leonard schools than among Soard schools.

I was taught applications for forms but they weren't often practiced in class. I remember more applications taught in Leonard schools than Soard schools.

My impression was that few students practiced forms outside of class. So a typical class became exercise (warmups and workouts), reviewing past forms, learning new forms, sparring. Doesn't leave a lot of classtime to work on live applications. But class is the one time that you have partners to practice those!

And as you say, the constant stream of new forms makes it hard to refine application and technique from prior ones.

You're 100% correct about the deviations between the Soard and Leonard affiliated schools. My school in particular is affiliated with Leonard so maybe that's why we learn more applications. I've seen a lot of schools rush students through form to the point where they barely even know it well enough to pass their rank advancement. For example, to test from blue to green belt there are 5 forms you have to learn. One school I saw in particular would teach those 5 forms in a 3 month period to the point where students were learning the last bit of their last form maybe a week or so before their belt test. So they'd barely have even learned a form, test on it, pass their test, and then the next week was the first week of their new rank where they then started learning a NEW form already. And then the cycle just continues over and over again. That's why students don't ever learn application - because form is so heavily pushed to get to the next rank. Luckily with my school our instructor isn't as concerned with sticking to a particular timeline. He tells all of us that "You'll test when I feel you're ready and not before". I saw one student wait almost 9 months just to test from yellow belt to blue. I had a ton of respect for this kid. He was 16 and had a hard time learning in the beginning. But he didn't give up and even when he saw others he started with getting their next belts before him he still didn't give up and kept going. We do lose quite a few students because of this but I feel like it also means we have more serious students in our school than many do (at least in the SD schools).

Most of the serious students do practice applications outside of class, in fact we have "free gym time" specifically for this reason where we can come in on our own time and work on whatever we want, but it honestly should be emphasized a LOT more inside of class as well. So in my school, a typical class is about an hour long. We start with a 5-10 minute warmup (pushups, squats, jumping jacks, stretching, etc), then do some punching and kicking drills for another 5-10 minutes, then work on form for 15-20 minutes, and then the rest of the class is usually spent working on applications from your forms, and then a quick cool-down. My instructor has always been willing and able to answer any application question given to him and he's always said that he doesn't hide knowledge; he wants to pass it on to us so then we can remind him of things when he's old LOL!

Yes, the excess number of forms really does make it hard to ever become proficient enough in all of them to really "know" them. Anyone can memorize the movements of a form from beginning to end, but to me, you don't really KNOW a form until you can explain the applications of each movement and why it works the way it does. I've seen a lot of students in SD who can beautifully perform their forms. They can kick high, punch hard, get low into stances, etc, but when it comes to actually applying what they've learned in the form they're *mostly* clueless. I say mostly because a lot of them can give you some very basic applications from one or two forms but they're the very obvious ones anyway and even then half the time they aren't doing them correctly. I understand that there are many martial artists who don't necessarily "care" about learning applications or how to fight; they're doing it for the physical health benefits and to stay in shape, but this is still a martial art and you should still understand WHAT it is you're learning.

Overall I think SD can be a good and effective system (I say system and not style) IF you have the right instructor who's willing to teach you correctly AND if you're a student who is there for the right reasons and not just wanting to look good in the black belt you got in 15 months. We had this kid years ago, who was maybe 11 or 12, and he kept talking about how he couldn't wait to get a black belt and once he was a black belt he'd be able to spar everyone and win, etc etc etc. I think he even complained a couple times that he didn't get to test when he had met the minimum requirements... I think he was maybe only a yellow belt at the time so he hadn't been there long anyway and I was only a couple months away from testing to first black. So one class my instructor told us to take off our belts and put them back in the locker room. We came back out to the mat in just our gi's and he had each of us do our form one at a time. Then we each sparred 1:1 with everyone in the class. Afterwards he told us "Now, how many of you were still able to do your forms just as well as you were before?" Everyone raised their hand. Then he said "How many of you felt just as comfortable sparring as you were before?" Again, everyone raised their hand. Then he said, "It's not the belt around your waist that makes you a good martial artist, it's what's in here (pointing to his head). If all you want is a black belt then go out and buy a black belt." Everyone's jaw just dropped. LOL from then on this kid never said a word about testing. He's still with us now and he's a very proficient martial artist. Once he stopped caring about the belts it was like his mind was suddenly able to be opened.

How long did you train in SD Purple Dinosaur? Just curious

Royal Dragon

09-25-2020, 06:55 PM

Is this discussion STILL going on?

It's like a 20+ year old thread! WOW!

Purple Dinosaur

09-27-2020, 10:17 AM

You're 100% correct about the deviations between the Soard and Leonard affiliated schools. My school in particular is affiliated with Leonard so maybe that's why we learn more applications. I've seen a lot of schools rush students through form to the point where they barely even know it well enough to pass their rank advancement. For example, to test from blue to green belt there are 5 forms you have to learn. One school I saw in particular would teach those 5 forms in a 3 month period to the point where students were learning the last bit of their last form maybe a week or so before their belt test. So they'd barely have even learned a form, test on it, pass their test, and then the next week was the first week of their new rank where they then started learning a NEW form already. And then the cycle just continues over and over again. That's why students don't ever learn application - because form is so heavily pushed to get to the next rank. Luckily with my school our instructor isn't as concerned with sticking to a particular timeline. He tells all of us that "You'll test when I feel you're ready and not before". I saw one student wait almost 9 months just to test from yellow belt to blue. I had a ton of respect for this kid. He was 16 and had a hard time learning in the beginning. But he didn't give up and even when he saw others he started with getting their next belts before him he still didn't give up and kept going. We do lose quite a few students because of this but I feel like it also means we have more serious students in our school than many do (at least in the SD schools).

Most of the serious students do practice applications outside of class, in fact we have "free gym time" specifically for this reason where we can come in on our own time and work on whatever we want, but it honestly should be emphasized a LOT more inside of class as well. So in my school, a typical class is about an hour long. We start with a 5-10 minute warmup (pushups, squats, jumping jacks, stretching, etc), then do some punching and kicking drills for another 5-10 minutes, then work on form for 15-20 minutes, and then the rest of the class is usually spent working on applications from your forms, and then a quick cool-down. My instructor has always been willing and able to answer any application question given to him and he's always said that he doesn't hide knowledge; he wants to pass it on to us so then we can remind him of things when he's old LOL!

Yes, the excess number of forms really does make it hard to ever become proficient enough in all of them to really "know" them. Anyone can memorize the movements of a form from beginning to end, but to me, you don't really KNOW a form until you can explain the applications of each movement and why it works the way it does. I've seen a lot of students in SD who can beautifully perform their forms. They can kick high, punch hard, get low into stances, etc, but when it comes to actually applying what they've learned in the form they're *mostly* clueless. I say mostly because a lot of them can give you some very basic applications from one or two forms but they're the very obvious ones anyway and even then half the time they aren't doing them correctly. I understand that there are many martial artists who don't necessarily "care" about learning applications or how to fight; they're doing it for the physical health benefits and to stay in shape, but this is still a martial art and you should still understand WHAT it is you're learning.

Overall I think SD can be a good and effective system (I say system and not style) IF you have the right instructor who's willing to teach you correctly AND if you're a student who is there for the right reasons and not just wanting to look good in the black belt you got in 15 months. We had this kid years ago, who was maybe 11 or 12, and he kept talking about how he couldn't wait to get a black belt and once he was a black belt he'd be able to spar everyone and win, etc etc etc. I think he even complained a couple times that he didn't get to test when he had met the minimum requirements... I think he was maybe only a yellow belt at the time so he hadn't been there long anyway and I was only a couple months away from testing to first black. So one class my instructor told us to take off our belts and put them back in the locker room. We came back out to the mat in just our gi's and he had each of us do our form one at a time. Then we each sparred 1:1 with everyone in the class. Afterwards he told us "Now, how many of you were still able to do your forms just as well as you were before?" Everyone raised their hand. Then he said "How many of you felt just as comfortable sparring as you were before?" Again, everyone raised their hand. Then he said, "It's not the belt around your waist that makes you a good martial artist, it's what's in here (pointing to his head). If all you want is a black belt then go out and buy a black belt." Everyone's jaw just dropped. LOL from then on this kid never said a word about testing. He's still with us now and he's a very proficient martial artist. Once he stopped caring about the belts it was like his mind was suddenly able to be opened.

How long did you train in SD Purple Dinosaur? Just curious

I trained long enough to see all the core material for third black. I maybe was taught half those third black forms before I quit. The other half I wasn’t taught but had seen other students do.

You mentioned all the forms. One morning I woke up and thought "I really don't want to do any forms any more, ever." I skipped classes for a week and still felt that way. I called my instructor to tell him why I was quitting. He actually sighed and said something like "I feel that way too sometimes but I can’t quit because it’s my job."

Wherever SD comes from, I agree that it can be good and even great *at what it does*.

One of my classmates called SD a buffet because you get a buffet selection of:

conditioning and flexibility

stances, blocks, punches, kicks, and other movements that appear in every popular Westernized Asian martial art

self defense

short fighting techniques and combinations

long empty hand and weapon forms

light and in some places medium sparring if you want

and internal arts.

You get buffet breadth but not depth however. If you want depth, go somewhere specializing in what you want. And unfortunately you might have to unlearn some of what you learned in SD.

That was my personal experience with tai chi after SD. I had to unlearn. Other posters on this forum have reported similar experiences.

In SD’s defense, literally 9 of the 10 schools offering tai chi within driving distance from me offer worse tai chi than SD. It’s either “meditation in motion” or New Age crap or senior citizen recreation or no martial application wushu flavor despite good lineage. But the 10th school is just better in every way.

Anyhow, as you say, the instructor makes a huge difference for SD and any martial art. So depending where SD students live, they will be lucky or not depending on their local instructor. The material is basically the same.

Of the teachers I saw, the Leonard school instructors were better than the Soard ones in my experience. And Bill Leonard himself always impressed me more than the Soards themselves did. I only went to one Soard festival (those were all-day form seminars) and that might have been the worst SD experience of my life.

YinOrYan

09-27-2020, 02:46 PM

In SD’s defense, literally 9 of the 10 schools offering tai chi within driving distance from me offer worse tai chi than SD. It’s either “meditation in motion” or New Age crap or senior citizen recreation or no martial application wushu flavor despite good lineage. But the 10th school is just better in every way.

I bet the tai chi instructor you found learned kung fu before learning tai chi...

Purple Dinosaur

09-28-2020, 06:59 AM

I bet the tai chi instructor you found learned kung fu before learning tai chi...

That happened in a way.

When my tai chi instructor first learned tai chi, he had no kung fu training and wasn't interested in the martial side or kung fu.

Then he found a new teacher who made him relearn tai chi from zero and also made him do tai chi martial applications and learn some kung fu (stances punches kicks and some forms).

My instructor said the martial lessons combined with his new teacher's emphasis on foundational tai chi principles led to huge improvements in his own tai chi.

JCBG

09-28-2020, 07:55 AM

Is this discussion STILL going on?

It's like a 20+ year old thread! WOW!

Haha, yeah, pretty crazy, right?

JCBG

09-28-2020, 08:15 AM

I trained long enough to see all the core material for third black. I maybe was taught half those third black forms before I quit. The other half I wasn’t taught but had seen other students do.

You mentioned all the forms. One morning I woke up and thought "I really don't want to do any forms any more, ever." I skipped classes for a week and still felt that way. I called my instructor to tell him why I was quitting. He actually sighed and said something like "I feel that way too sometimes but I can’t quit because it’s my job."

Wherever SD comes from, I agree that it can be good and even great *at what it does*.

One of my classmates called SD a buffet because you get a buffet selection of:

conditioning and flexibility

stances, blocks, punches, kicks, and other movements that appear in every popular Westernized Asian martial art

self defense

short fighting techniques and combinations

long empty hand and weapon forms

light and in some places medium sparring if you want

and internal arts.

You get buffet breadth but not depth however. If you want depth, go somewhere specializing in what you want. And unfortunately you might have to unlearn some of what you learned in SD.

That was my personal experience with tai chi after SD. I had to unlearn. Other posters on this forum have reported similar experiences.

In SD’s defense, literally 9 of the 10 schools offering tai chi within driving distance from me offer worse tai chi than SD. It’s either “meditation in motion” or New Age crap or senior citizen recreation or no martial application wushu flavor despite good lineage. But the 10th school is just better in every way.

Anyhow, as you say, the instructor makes a huge difference for SD and any martial art. So depending where SD students live, they will be lucky or not depending on their local instructor. The material is basically the same.

Of the teachers I saw, the Leonard school instructors were better than the Soard ones in my experience. And Bill Leonard himself always impressed me more than the Soards themselves did. I only went to one Soard festival (those were all-day form seminars) and that might have been the worst SD experience of my life.

You make some very good points Purple Dinosaur. I do agree that you get somewhat of an overview of various systems rather than an in-depth study of a specific system in most cases; however, you really CAN dedicate yourself to deep-diving into the forms to learn more of what they're about than just the tip of the iceberg that's taught for rank advancement. I basically had a very similar revelation as you one day when I decided I just didn't want to learn any more forms. I actually get tht feeling from a lot of current and former SD students that they feel the same way as well. I do enjoy working with what I've got and spending time learning/discovering more applications in the forms I care most about. I really don't care much for the weapons forms and never really have other than staff.

Again, I really think SD's biggest weakness (other than the clearly false history) is the way it's taught. Take out half the forms it takes to get to black belt, increase the time in-between rank tests, require more practice/knowledge of application (especially to get an instructor certificate), and have regular sparring practice, and I think it would be more respectable than it seems to be.

The Tai Chi in SD intrigues me because it's NOTHING like any Tai Chi I've seen anywhere before. Again, this doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, but it's interesting that it's totally different. I have learned various applications from it and enjoy practicing it but I feel as though it isn't "authentic" as such. It's definitely good to do though during my "recovery days" or as a good warmup/cool down exercise and just something to kind of settle down and relax your mind once in a while. And yeah, the only Tai Chi school within driving distance of me is that New Age crap you mentioned so I think the SD wins over that one, LOL!

I also keep in contact with many friends from different martial arts systems and get together with them to cross train once in a while. Not ever as a formal class but mostly to bounce ideas off of one another and see what they have to think about an application. I may show them a piece of a form and the application I came up with from it and ask them how they would interpret it with the philosophy of their style. It's a really fun and informative exercise that I think anyone can benefit from.

Purple Dinosaur

09-28-2020, 02:14 PM

Haha, yeah, pretty crazy, right?

It is amazing. I hope the thread continues until we have all the answers!

For example

Was there a GM Su and if not, who is the hairy guy in the photo? People say the Netherlands martial arts school with some roots in Chung Yen also has GM Su pictures. That suggests that GM Ie or someone else from Chung Yen and not GM Sin is the source if it is fake. One poster says GM Su is really Li Baoshu from the 1920s (google the image but add the word "hairy" or else you get a lot of pictures of an author).

Was GM Ie the brothers’ grandfather and what year did he die but more importantly why would the brothers have different answers to these two questions?

What material did GM Sin learn before coming to America? We know from his translated certificate he learned certain schools and forms. We know the specialties of each of the masters at his Indonesian school. American students who visited Indonesia saw Indonesians perform some of the forms taught in the US. Hiang The teaches some material in his Kentucky school that includes some material GM Sin claims to have created (such as some of the pre-first-black material, that’s from one of the depositions, according to a couple of earlier posts on this forum). And there is the Netherlands connection from the Dutch martial artist who learned forms from Chung Yen at the Indonesia school.

I don’t think we will hear from either of the only two people who could give definitive answers that would silence everyone.

JCBG

10-02-2020, 06:47 AM

It is amazing. I hope the thread continues until we have all the answers!

For example

Was there a GM Su and if not, who is the hairy guy in the photo? People say the Netherlands martial arts school with some roots in Chung Yen also has GM Su pictures. That suggests that GM Ie or someone else from Chung Yen and not GM Sin is the source if it is fake. One poster says GM Su is really Li Baoshu from the 1920s (google the image but add the word "hairy" or else you get a lot of pictures of an author).

Was GM Ie the brothers’ grandfather and what year did he die but more importantly why would the brothers have different answers to these two questions?

What material did GM Sin learn before coming to America? We know from his translated certificate he learned certain schools and forms. We know the specialties of each of the masters at his Indonesian school. American students who visited Indonesia saw Indonesians perform some of the forms taught in the US. Hiang The teaches some material in his Kentucky school that includes some material GM Sin claims to have created (such as some of the pre-first-black material, that’s from one of the depositions, according to a couple of earlier posts on this forum). And there is the Netherlands connection from the Dutch martial artist who learned forms from Chung Yen at the Indonesia school.

I don’t think we will hear from either of the only two people who could give definitive answers that would silence everyone.

I doubt we'll ever have ALL the answers but hopefully we can get close.

1. I personally doubt there was ever a GM Su. It just doesn't make sense to me and if he was as talented as he supposedly was then you could pretty much assume that there would be much more info on him and he'd be very well known. The fact remains though that there are VERY few people in the martial arts community outside of SD actually know who he (supposedly) is. I can't remember the dates he seemingly lived but the only picture you ever see of him was taken with an actual camera (as opposed to being a drawing or painting) so he must have lived not too terribly long ago. If he was the martial arts prodigy GM Sin makes him out to be then he would/should be as famous as someone like IP Man, whom EVERYONE knows.

2. The debate as to whether or not GM Ie is the brothers' grandfather or not perplexes me as each of them give a different story. On one hand, you'd think it would ADD some credibility to the system if GM Ie was their grandfather as it would show direct lineage to the art. In the early days a lot of family's systems were passed down through the generations to their children so that could make the story more believable. On the other hand, some would see him being their grandfather as giving LESS credibility to the system. It's really difficult to say for sure but I tend to believe that he is, mostly because Huang seems to be a little more forthcoming with his information.

3. It's really hard to say for sure what material he learned before coming to America but it almost certainly wasn't "traditional" Shaolin martial arts. I say this because after having been involved with the system over many years I see a lot of Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo, and tiny amounts of "Kung Fu" elements inter-weaved into the material. Maybe a few bits and pieces of some of the other karate styles like Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu as well... SD is basically an American style of Karate in my opinion. This wouldn't be a bad thing if GM Sin was honest about its origins. There are many successful American Karate schools around the country from instructors who decided to just create their own systems. After all, *technically* all systems were made up by somebody at some point. Even Bruce Lee completely created Jeet Kune Do. The difference was he was honest about it from the beginning and didn't rely on heavily fabricated stories to push his school. Seeing as how GM Sin claims to have been a fifth degree black belt (which from what I can tell so far, IS true), when he came to America, this would also support the theory that he didn't learn traditional Shaolin martial arts since most, if not all schools at that time didn't have ranks or belts.

We'll likely never have every answer we want unless for some reason GM Sin suddenly has a change of heart and decides to come forward and tell the truth about the true origins of SD. Still, for me at least, this doesn't take away the effectiveness of the system if practiced correctly, but it DOES definitely make it look bad.

bodhi warrior

12-31-2020, 11:22 AM

Here is a video by a Choy Li Fut sifu demonstrating a back hand slap from his system. It is almost identical to the move we were taught in the 2nd white crane form at brown belt. I don’t think I’ve seen another system do this move so close to Shaolin do. It kinda makes a point I’ve believed for awhile. The core material and the movements can trace their roots to Shaolin. Even though the arrangement of form movements themselves are different. I have found other connections as well. Anyway. Have a great holiday.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-npsZsn1grc&feature=share

Shaolin Wookie

03-05-2021, 01:28 PM

The Tai Chi in SD intrigues me because it's NOTHING like any Tai Chi I've seen anywhere before. Again, this doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, but it's interesting that it's totally different. I have learned various applications from it and enjoy practicing it but I feel as though it isn't "authentic" as such. It's definitely good to do though during my "recovery days" or as a good warmup/cool down exercise and just something to kind of settle down and relax your mind once in a while. And yeah, the only Tai Chi school within driving distance of me is that New Age crap you mentioned so I think the SD wins over that one, LOL!

I.

The Tai Chi in SD is literally Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form (shotgunned in 2 places [hanging lotus/cloud hands]) and Chen Zheng Lei's 18 posture Chen form, for starters. The SD applications are generally pretty simple (from what I remember). Tai Chi is basically slow Longfist. I know that's a simplification, but if you've done Longfist for decades, you know this to be pretty true. The applications in SD's Tai Chi are elementary, and often unrealistic (take "single whip" as a backhand slap and then a palm push--lol--when in reality it's closer to the way SD teaches chin-na hip throws). Get what you can out of it, and definitely avoid the new age crap. But you can improve your form even with video instruction. I remember starting THERE--with video instruction to fix my form's mechanics. Luckily, I've crossed paths with many talented Tai Chi practitioners (traditional Yang, Chen, and Sangfeng Pai) whose lessons always pushed my mechanics even further. I have my own judgments about Cheng Man Ching's lineage--they almost all practice as if they too were midgets (the master was a tiny guy, so his own edits to the Yang long form tended to stress his natural advantages of a low center of gravity that doesn't require much movement to get lower); and they perform it as if they too were rather lacking in a certain "long-limbed" athleticism.

I also greatly enjoy Cheng Man Ching's book (13 treatises). The man was a scholar. His written instructions/reflections for practice can really hyper-focus your study for improvement. The man goes on for pages regarding the proper alignment of your wrists in the first motion of the form. LOL.