Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

You think their He Hu Chuan is what they translate as Tiger or Black Panther? The black tigers are, from what I understand and as far as I know, unique to SD...it'd be REALLY interesting to see someone else's.

I have a Shandong Black Tiger form.

Shaolin has its own Black Tigers as well, though I believe they were created pretty recently.

[Radhnoti]

I actually meant the look/moves/feel of SD's Black Tigers, sorry to be so vague. It's one of the few SD forms I've heard people compliment online. But, honestly, SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

[Judge Pen]

SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

Really? I've seen lots of good Hung Gar, CLF and mantis in person. No other Tiger, though. I've seen some on vid. The techniques and footwork were very similiar, but it was played a little slower than we do our Black Tiger.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Seriously, I've heard of no styles outside of Korean/Japanese and shaolin-do even within an hour of where I live. And to be honest, the Japanese styles all seem to have even more nebulous histories than SD...or if they DO have a "lineage" it's via seminar.
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

[Judge Pen]

Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

It's got more. Not much for CMA though, but certainly more than where you are or where I used to live. CMA: SD, Wah Lum, a BaGua/Chen Tai Chi teacher, and Richard Clear in Maryville (Kung Tao). Lots of TKD and some Japanese (a really good aikido school here, small but good instruction.) The boxing guy you mentioned, some BJJ and MMA gyms. I've run accross some poeple that train privately too so it's there if you want. For my tastes, I'm happy with the Mullins. They work me hard and teach me well. And its very affordable.

The CLF I see is in Atlanta and the mantis is Oso and Yu Shan's group. Good stuff a couple of hours away.

[Golden Tiger]

MK is gonna mess right around and discover the proof that SD is in fact a legit system...:D

[orion_steel]

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

I may have to end up moving to Tennessee i think :)

[Judge Pen]

Look us up if you do.

[lxtruong]

Everyone knows Austin is way cooler than any place in Tenn.

We also have killer Mexican Martinis. And good BBQ, beat that!

[Judge Pen]

I've got nothing but good things to say about Austin. . . . but our b-ball team put the smack down on your then ranked #2 horns.

(I must be in a alternate dimension if I'm talking up Tenn. basketball, but not mentioning football.)

[yu shan]

O/T with current discussion, but I had the chance to witness Judge in action this past weekend. I had a group participating in a tournament in NC. I knew JP was entering this contest and I looked forward to seeing him again. And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude! Anyway, I officiated in forms and fighting. So I of course got to see JP in action. Your 5 animal form was a very nice set... extremely long, how in the h*ll can you remember all that? I scored JP`s Kwando high, one of the nicer sets I have seen and a personal favorite, some difficult moves to execute. But what most impressed me with JP was his fighting! This man is a true gladiator! He is right at home in the ring, and displayed excellant combat skills. His name came up many times that night while our group were pounding back beers, reflecting over the day. I will use him as an example for my folks in the future. JP`s division was very tuff, and he manned up, a real stud in the ring.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks as always Jim. You're going to have to post the KFO picture you took.

[yu shan]

I plan on posting the pic, every picture tells a story.

[lxtruong]

Yes. 5 animal fist is long as ****. I'm working it up right now for our tournament coming up and everytime I finish running through it I'm like "Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

Bah, basketball. I'm an Illini, so I care naught about the crazy antics of these wacky longhorns.

[Judge Pen]

"Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

I know the feeling, but the form is just so pretty when its done right. One day I'll get there.


And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude!

I know; and she can cook.

[yu shan]

Hmm, a lady that looks that good and cooks too! You deserve her bro.

[sean_stonehart]

Wait til you drop by one day while passing through town & she has "snacks" for you. I haven't eaten that well before in restaurants!!

[Judge Pen]

Jim and Oso, Knoxville is half-way between Nashville and Asheville. Yo can drop by my place anytime for snacks or just to say hello. I'm two minutes away from a school if you want to get a workout in too.

[Golden Tiger]

...... Knoxville is half-way between Knoxville and Asheville. .......


Is it just me or.....

[Judge Pen]

Is it just me or.....

Oops. That invite goes for you too, GT or anyone else in Kentucky if you are ever down my way.

[Radhnoti]

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

[sean_stonehart]

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

Whoo hoo!!! Food & beer supplies are at the top of his road too!!!

Wonder if he'll leave a credit card laying around to make sure we don't run short???:D :p

[Judge Pen]

Just take care of the dogs. That will save me money on a dog-sitter.

[yu shan]

JP, I`m interested, have you run this by Matt? This takes two hours off my trip and I can be home to my puerto rican princess that night.

[Judge Pen]

I'm all for it. A friend of mine just opened a school 2 minutes from my house. It is also 2 minutes off of the interstate in West Knoxville. I am helping him teach some classes in exchange for a key to the place. I'll be there on Saturdays from 10-11:30 for class and open mat. I can meet you guys there if it would be easier for you (and I can pick up some technique along the way). Just let me know when you guys want to come down. Let me clear it with my friend, but I don't anticipate a problem.

[Oso]

Sounds good to me. West K'ville would put it right in the middle of me and Yu.

Let's set it up.

Yu, don't forget you'll still cross the time zone.

[yu shan]

Ha dang we`re building bridges! Yep, I`ve done the knoxville run 100 times. I know every nick and cranny in I-40. JP thanks for the offer, this helps.

[Judge Pen]

No problem. Right off of the Lovel Road exit. . . .

[yu shan]

West Knoxville, 2nd exit good for me, I hate the thru traffic. Bad for Matt though. Are they ever going to get this traffic problem fixed in K`ville?

[Judge Pen]

I've been here for 9 years and it hasn't gotten any better. One thing is for sure, they've worked on the problem enough that you would think it should be fixed.

[sean_stonehart]

I thought that road construction was SOP for Chattvegas & K'ville. I've been in & through them since the late 80's & have yet to avoid road work at any time.

[kwaichang]

Hey JP where is the school I used to live off Lovell Rd too. BTW plan to be living there by April Maybe we can train and build further the bridges ?? KC:)

[Oso]

Ok. When's the first date?

Yu, I need to really get some time in on Ling Beng Bu, both sides.

[Ou Ji]

Hey, can anybody get in on this?

Actually I'm heading for a road trip soon and might be able to make a few stops along the way. PM me where I can find some of you guys.

[Oso]

to be on topic for a second...

I had a walk in tonight.

She had just come from the SD school down the street.

In the process of pitching myself and my school she asked me what the difference is between me and the SD school.

Here's what I told her.

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

[Oso]

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

[kwaichang]

Glad to hear that you have not expressed Bias in what you told that prospective student I would like to meet you you seem to harbor the true Martial Way are you in K-ville KC:)

[Oso]

nope, I'm only about 90 minutes away though.

[Judge Pen]

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

Be sure to bring in Scott Powell in Asheville. He teaches there too, but only has about 10 students. He's not the most politically correct guy, but he has a good heart, a great personality, and he's a good fighter. He just calls things as he sees them which can rub some people the wrong way. He was there on Saturday and ended up being a coach of sorts for me.

As for what you said; that's fine. I explain it to people like this:

Our art is controversial in the CMA community. Our teacher came from Indonesia, and while claiming lineage to the Shaolin temples, the outward trappings have changed somewhat from what you see in other CMA schools. Our history, beyond Sin The's teachers, are also unverifiable. While some people place a great deal of emphasis on history and lineage, I think what matters is the quality of the instruction and the applicability of the material. I feel we offer both as well as any school.

But, then again, I am a little biased. Call it as you see it Oso. I feel you are as objective as anyone I've met on this topic.

I expalin the difference in your school and ours in terms of focus. Your school focuses on a single style and you will get a deeper understanding of mantis forms, theory application and principles there than we can offer you. The forms are good and they train good fighters. Our school teaches more diverse material in a curriculim designed to build off the skills learned earlier. It's a different approach, but the end result is intended to be the same.

Plus you guys have the best spear set I've ever seen.

[Ou Ji]

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

Yeah, it's the Ou Ji Fight Tour '06. :D

Actually, if there's as much drinking as I hear then fighting is inevitable. I'm mostly Irish. :p

[yu shan]

LOL, yea everytime I get back from a road trip to Asheville I got to attend an AA meeting! :D Oso, heck I need to get back on Beng Bu, I have been so busy with getting my guys and gals ready for the tournament, that I have neglected my training. I spent last night reviewing Kevin`s seminar, good stuff. JP & Oso, lets talk, this will be a bounce trip for me.

[Oso]

JP: Yea, I will talk to Scott too.

I do try to be fair and as I said, recent discussions w/ Bob and the tournament experience recently have left me feeling more positive about you guys.

I know I couldn't have pulled that roundhouse kick off from as low as you were. :)

To be fair, I think that spear form is one of Jim's Wah Lum forms. I started learning it but haven't finished it. I like it.

Ou Ji: yep, plenty o' drinking but I'm not a fighter as far as that goes. I like to sit back and chill and talk.

Yu Shan: I thought your meetings were every week? ;) Well, lets get Beng Bu back up together.

[Judge Pen]

Last weekend in this month should work for me. Saturday afternoon or any day on Sunday. I still need to clear it with my friend. If not, I have a yard if the weather is good enough.

[dougadam]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

http://www.shaolin-do.com/

[Sin The']

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

[BM2]

Man I wish Gene would delete that account :confused: or Dougadam would give him a candle and some bleach;)

[Golden Tiger]

No BM2. That would be censorchip...and that's just wrong.

On a side note, are you going to make it to the seminar this time?

[lxtruong]

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

I just wish he would structure his trollish posts in a more gramatically correct manner. What is this supposed to mean?

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

[BM2]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39080

Candles and bleach? Now you know the rest of the story. Be sure to scroll down and read Gene's responses.
GT,if something doesn't come up I'll be there next month.

[Golden Tiger]

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

[SimonM]

Is Mega Fist back again?

[lxtruong]

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

Haha, alas no can do, since we're leaving here driving on Thursday. Plus, I've been through one of Master Bill's thursday classes before. I don't know if I can stand having my brain and body fried twice in one week. Last time I had to "learn" 2/3 of Hua 2-man set #1 in 30 minutes. Can't remember a **** thing of course. :)

[wdl]

Have you guys set a date yet? I might dig my way out of my hole up here in Grainger Co. and show up.

Long: How's Austin? I might be out in Round Rock in the next month or two. I'll look you up if I am. Need BEER!

-Will

[humbleman]

Found out today why weight on end of whip looks like head of snake. Decided to try a reverse between legs and guess exact point where **** thing landed. Sensei Brian would have been pleased. First time, despite his years of exhortations, threats, and pleading that my back went perfectly straight during practice. Won't need to pay for a tattoo now.

[Golden Tiger]

Found out today why weight on end of whip looks like head of snake. Decided to try a reverse between legs and guess exact point where **** thing landed. Sensei Brian would have been pleased. First time, despite his years of exhortations, threats, and pleading that my back went perfectly straight during practice. Won't need to pay for a tattoo now.

I assume that you were doing the 7-link form, but if your back was straight, it shouldn't have hit that hard...hmmm

Sensei Brian?

[Emeraldphoenix]

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

[Judge Pen]

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

That's great to hear! I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

[kwaichang]

Judge who is the teacher for the Kingston pike school. I saw Shaolin so who is the teacher etc ??? KC

[Judge Pen]

You mean beside the Rush off the Lovel Road exit? That's Daniel Mattson. I'm there for open gym on Saturday mornings.

[kwaichang]

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

[Golden Tiger]

I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

[Judge Pen]

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

Master Garry is his primary teacher, but he has learned most of his stuff after black from Kevin and Mike.

[Judge Pen]

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

Thanks GT. I'm hoping to have another Mullins martial artist eventually!

[yu shan]

Hey JP

Looking to get over your way soon to hook up with Oso. You still interested in that spear form? PM me some info.

Hey man, do you know Master James Cook? He is in your area, I would like to meet the man.

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP

Looking to get over your way soon to hook up with Oso. You still interested in that spear form? PM me some info.

Hey man, do you know Master James Cook? He is in your area, I would like to meet the man.

PM will be on its way shortly.

[kwaichang]

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

[Golden Tiger]

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

"Sifu Daniel Mattson ~ 3rd Degree
Studies exclusively with Elder Master Garry Mullins, Master Kevin, and Master Mike.
Daniel specializes in the Internal Arts such as Tai Chi Ch’uan and Meditation."

[Judge Pen]

KC, why are you asking? Daniel's a nice enough guy. Very detail oriented and an excellent teacher.

[kwaichang]

I may have trained with him, I was in the area and saw the school, I saw Shaolin but no Do so I wasnt sure who taught there. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Cool. If you were in that area, then you were 2 minutes from my home.

[humbleman]

I put in W.M.D. on the search bar but couldn't find anything. Any suggestions? (the thread shall not die- especially on page 111.

[Mantis Fist]

Not a traditional shaolin style

[kwaichang]

Yeah sure, anyway, Judge you voting on May 2nd remember to tell everyone in the Knoxville area to OUST Judge Swann and vote for David Lee. for 4th circuit court. BTW I may be your neighbor soon E-mail me as to about where you live neighborhood and all KC:o

[Judge Pen]

Yeah sure, anyway, Judge you voting on May 2nd remember to tell everyone in the Knoxville area to OUST Judge Swann and vote for David Lee. for 4th circuit court. BTW I may be your neighbor soon E-mail me as to about where you live neighborhood and all KC:o

Yeah, I'm voting. PM sent.

[Green Cloud]

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

[Golden Tiger]

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

Good point....we definitely don't have the flashy kung fu suits that you guys do...

:rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

That's Cute, Actualy those pic's are from the early 90's and I have to admit I hated those uniforms.

[Judge Pen]

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

Since your post is based upon your observation, please tell me where have you seen shaolin-do? Have you watched any clasees and if so where? Have you ever trained with anyone who studied shaolin-do? Ever crossed hands with anyone?

I mean I could say that what I've seen of [insert style here] then it is [insert whatever here] but without any real experience with a style, then how much weight would you expect it to carry.

[Green Cloud]

That's Cute, Actualy those pic's are from the early 90's and I have to admit I hated those uniforms. Seriously I've herd the terms the shaoilin way or Do by many traditional Karate instructors. In my youth I was involved in GO JU (hard soft) and my instructors traced back there lineage to Shaolin. In fact some have made a comparison to Go Ju and Bak Mei.

This Idea that Go Ju traces it's ancestory back to bak mei wich was a shaolin system often led to people calling it Shaolin Do. As far as uniforms are concerned everyone on the Shaolin Do site was wearing Karate Gi's, Tokaido brand no less.

Anyway I wasn't judging a book by it's cover, just taking an educated guess.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

That's Cute, Actualy those pic's are from the early 90's and I have to admit I hated those uniforms. Seriously I've herd the terms the shaoilin way or Do by many traditional Karate instructors. In my youth I was involved in GO JU (hard soft) and my instructors traced back there lineage to Shaolin. In fact some have made a comparison to Go Ju and Bak Mei.

This Idea that Go Ju traces it's ancestory back to bak mei wich was a shaolin system often led to people calling it Shaolin Do. As far as uniforms are concerned everyone on the Shaolin Do site was wearing Karate Gi's, Tokaido brand no less.

Anyway I wasn't judging a book by it's cover, just taking an educated guess.

greencloud.net

So based upon the name and the gis (not everyone wears them, btw) then it is karate do in your opinion. Ok, how is that not judging a book by its cover?

A guess is a guess (educated or not). I thought you may have first-hand insight from your first post.

[Green Cloud]

Hey pen, I wasn't judging the style by the uniforms I was just implying that at first glance this was a Japanese style by the uniforms they were wearing.

I also shared my experiences with the word Shaoilin Do. I like all draditional styles of MA so I'm not poking fun here.

I haven't herd of Shaoilin Do so I'm not at liberty to comment on this style. I just figured it was some kind of Karate based sysytem since In my experiences I've herd karate practitioners call what they do Shaolin Do

I also saw another site and they were wearing Kung Fu uniforms so you see I wasn't judging a book by it's cover. I was just stating what I knew from my personal exp.

If you read my first post I explained that I just jumped into this thread and had not yet read up.

I'm not trying to flame this thread Pen so put down that fire extinguisher, I meant no disrespect, just realy taking an educated guess that's all.

greencloud.net

[Golden Tiger]

I personally don't think you were trying to flame this/us/SD, there are too many other threads that you are doing that on at the moment.



As far as uniforms are concerned everyone on the Shaolin Do site was wearing Karate Gi's, Tokaido brand no less.


I am a Juka gold or Pine Tree wearer myself...but thats just me.:cool:


JP...learned the Ground Monkey...also learned that my a$$ is too old top roll around on the ground acting like a monkey...

[Green Cloud]

Jeshhh you guys are touchy, I just thought the question posted was wether Shaolin Do was real. I didn't know I was being out of line by joining into the conversation.

Rather than getting mad at me because I never herd of the style, why don't you guys just educate me.

As far as Tokaido brand goes I don't even know if they are around, anyone that trained back in the day would aprciate that.

[Judge Pen]

Jeshhh you guys are touchy, I just thought the question posted was wether Shaolin Do was real. I didn't know I was being out of line by joining into the conversation.

Rather than getting mad at me because I never herd of the style, why don't you guys just educate me.

As far as Tokaido brand goes I don't even know if they are around, anyone that trained back in the day would aprciate that.

I didn't think I was being hard on you. I just wanted to know where you had seen SD to make your conclusions. Since they are simply based on aesthetics (gis) and semantics (Do) then I understood that you were making a superficial judgment only.

As for educating you, then TTT. There's enough information and debate to choke a horse, and rehashing it all would be less efficient then you reading it a your own pace.

[Judge Pen]

JP...learned the Ground Monkey...also learned that my a$$ is too old top roll around on the ground acting like a monkey...

I've never liked monkey (still don't), but this was the best of the lot. I don't have the 2nd Ground Monkey, but I hear it's a little less 'playful' than the first.

[Green Cloud]

So JP Is it real or is is not, not that I'm sure sure what the question is??? Real kung fu or something, don't make me read the whole thread. You guys are already talking in code.

Ground monkey what's that??

[Judge Pen]

So JP Is it real or is is not, not that I'm sure sure what the question is??? Real kung fu or something, don't make me read the whole thread. You guys are already talking in code.

Ground monkey what's that??

Yes, it's real. If you want more detail, then read the thread or ask more specific questions. We're not talking in code, we just aren't repreating everything from a mega-thread. That would be redundant.

Ground Monkey is a monkey form that focuses on ground techniques. It was recently taught in a seminar and GT and I were having a side conversation about that specific form.

[Green Cloud]

I love Monkey style it's a very effective ground fighting system. Is that part of shaolin do?? And What is a good site that represents SD

[Judge Pen]

I love Monkey style it's a very effective ground fighting system. Is that part of shaolin do?? And What is a good site that represents SD

Monkey is taught in SD, but it's something that is generally taught in extra classes instead of part of the core forms that comprise SD. I only know of a few monkey fors that have been taught, but the Ground Monkey forms are nice for effective ground techniques. I'm just not psyically suited toward many of its techniques. As Eastwood said, "a man's gotta know his limitations."

As far as websites, there are a few descent vids that have been posted here that represent SD, but there are several more sub-par ones (and a couple of really bad ones). I don't know if the ATL site still has vids up. There's not any from my teachers site nor from the Lexington sites.

[Green Cloud]

Thanks for the info JP, I realy want to know more about the system but unfortunetly I haven't seen any video.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Ok I took the time to look at every web site on Shaolin Do. It's not a traditional style at all. In fact in it is my profesional opinion that SD is simply another Kempo schoo franchize.

Let me get this right the Grand master is a Dog literaly I saw this guy mentioned in the Guiness book od world records. I never saw a mention about his kung fu skill. The grand masters name is Su Kong something.

Any way now I know why I got my head bit off when I joined this thread. I don't have a problem with kempo but why try to make it something it's not. Why not tell people the truth, It's a little of everything and is made to be fun so we can make money.

Anyway now all is clear.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. If you would have read this thread (take about the same time to look at "every" SD site) you would have seen every issue you briefly mentioned debated ad naseum. Especially the differences between the photo of Su Kong and the Guiness book boy (they are not the same) etc.

But if your mind's made up, great. If you want to ask specific questions, I'm around too.

[Green Cloud]

JP this mega thread is over 113 pages long I don't have the time to read everything. I'm still not sure what the point is. There are a lot of pinions here, I asked you directly about the style and you told me to do some research.

I went on the web in search for some answeres. The web sites were less than informative. They give a bunch of info about kung fu, and some pretty drawings of animals.

I saw no video or anything that truly attempts to descripe the style. Most of the format on the sites are very comercial and resemble many other kenmpo sites. I looked for vids on it but saw notrhing.

Without having to read a bunch of opinions on this thread are you saying that this is a traditional Kung Fu system?? Once again I'm left with my gut instinct to formulate an opinion.

Up to now I have never seen this style represented at any tornament nor have I seen any video footage or anything. Unless you guys hold your own tourtneys like most kempo schools do since they don't do very well at traditional tourneys.

Altough The grandmaster Su Kong has sparked my curiosity, what an interesting fello.

Another thing that led me to my conclusion is the pictures on the site. Not one pic portrays any kind of pose that looks like kung fu. Maybe it's a super modified system for adults.

Like most martial arts when they get to the US they are watered down and made stupid simple so it can be sold to stupid simple Americans, who have no interest in the refinement of art and an esthetic ideal.

greencloud.net

[Golden Tiger]

Just to catch you up a little bit Greencloud. Someone asked about SD (Shaolin Do) and a bunch of people, like you, said that it crap, wasn't this, wasn't that..etc. Then through the grapevine, so of the SD students (like me) came on here to defend the honor of SD and Master Sin The (ST). Then ex-students that had left for what ever reason came on with some sort of personal grudge. Then it moved from this board on to a couple of others and back again. One guy got challenged (or made one) and got whooped. Two guys went to a SD school and one got whooped. Every minute detail of SD was examined, explained, disregarded and explained again. We learned the effectiveness of eye poking, crotch biting and key board kung fu. We agreed that most of the vids of SD on the net were bad (some down right crappy!) We examined the similarities between Tai Djin and Jojo, the dog faced boy. We fought (inter-SD) about the different uniforms, the fact that we don't do our forms in a wushu'y fashion and just about anything else you can think of (1600 posts plus...thats a lot of discussion).

In the end though, friendships were made, JP represented well at Oso's tourney, Master Killer made it thru Ky (ala BM2) alive, I met numerous people who wanted information aside from the "SD sucks" stuff.

So...Yes, SD is real. Yes, to most it still sucks. And finally, yes, to those of us that study it, it is CMA.

Thank you.

[Radhnoti]

I'm an ex-SDer. I think it's a pretty good system, an old friend (quit SD 15 or so years ago after getting the rank below black) used to call it "kung fu's greatest hits" because of the exposure you get to so many styles. My teacher is still a fantastic friend, we sparred often in class and looked for applications within the forms. I met some nice folks from other SD schools...it's always pleasant to meet people with a common interest. For me, it was not wasted time.

GC - "The web sites were less than informative. They give a bunch of info about kung fu, and some pretty drawings of animals."

Pretty much all you get from any website I'd say.

GC - "...the sites are very comercial and resemble many other kenmpo sites."

Just like every other martial art website... websites are, primarily, put up for commercial reasons, right?

GC - "JP this mega thread is over 113 pages long I don't have the time to read everything."

Then you go on to say you've examined every SD website? SD, I'm fairly certain, has more than 113 schools in the U.S. I'm positive there are more than 113 webpages dedicated to SD.

GC - "...are you saying that this is a traditional Kung Fu system??"

The story (when you really pin things down) is that it's a style with a historical shaolin connection that passed through Indonesia and changed, then came to the U.S. and changed again. In my opinion, most complaints ceter around historical accuracy and occasional grandiose/inaccurate marketing.

[MasterKiller]

In the end though, friendships were made, JP represented well at Oso's tourney, Master Killer made it thru Ky (ala BM2) alive, I met numerous people who wanted information aside from the "SD sucks" stuff.

113 pages and Golden Tiger never showed us his nipples, though.

[Green Cloud]

Hey it's all good fellas, If you guys say it's kung fu than what can I say it's Kung Fu
AS far as web site info, I think that you guys can do a better job at giving a more accurate discription. Since you say there are over 100 schools I'd say this is a popular system, what I can't understand is the lack of resources that are provided.

If you go to my web site
greencloud.net (greencloud.net) you guy will see not only pictures but video of the style, there is even more info on the greencloud.com (greencloud.com)site and other links that give you a good description of what the style is like.

My only critique of this organization are the web sites that are out there wich make it almost impossible to figure out what kind of system it is.

[Judge Pen]

Websites are up to the particular schools. The SDA website, shaolin-do.com is the closest thing to a "main" website page (other intra-SD issues aside).

I'll answer any specific question you have. I'm not going to take it on myself to "educate" you, though. I don't have the time for that, but I'll be glad to answer specific question based on my own perceptions and understanding. The only specific quesiton you asked me was "Is it real?" I said yes.

Rad, PM sent.

[Green Cloud]

Real in the sense that it's a recognized system or real as in a traditional recognized system. I was looking at one of the web sites and there was a disclaimer about Tournaments.

This is a good one, in short the reason you guys don't compete is because your stuff is so deadly. I don't understand why can't you do forms in competition if your art is so deadly.

Once again based upon my vast experiences I would have to say you guys are an image based francise. If anything you guys are real kenpo , not kung fu or should I say not good Kung Fu.

I know I know JP you probably don't want to be my buddy now but as a budist and a good Christian I am compelled to tell the truth.

That does leave me with very few friens but I can tell you one thing for sure the few friends I have are real. Peace


greencloud.net (greencloud.net)

[Judge Pen]

Real in the sense that it's a recognized system or real as in a traditional recognized system. I was looking at one of the web sites and there was a disclaimer about Tournaments.

This is a good one, in short the reason you guys don't compete is because your stuff is so deadly. I don't understand why can't you do forms in competition if your art is so deadly.

Once again based upon my vast experiences I would have to say you guys are an image based francise. If anything you guys are real kenpo , not kung fu or should I say not good Kung Fu.

I know I know JP you probably don't want to be my buddy now but as a budist and a good Christian I am compelled to tell the truth.

That does leave me with very few friens but I can tell you one thing for sure the few friends I have are real. Peace


greencloud.net (greencloud.net)

I'm not a big fan of that quote; I think that any traditional system has techniques that are taught that can't be used in a tournament, right? That's why tournaments have rules, and yes we do compete in tournmanets. Our own and others (at least I have from time to time--I'd like to see Texas show up to the Taiji Legacy).

Is it real in the sense that it's a recognized system or real as in a traditional recognized system? By whom? Here on the forum? Maybe and Maybe not. If you are in a town with a quality school you recognize its real, but you may have different opinions as to what exactly it is.

My take, its real CMA that was filtered through Indonesia and probably mixed with elements of other arts. Then it was taught to a bunch of Americans and the art has evolved more. Our flavor on many CMA styles is generally more power oriented (which is certainly changing the flavor of some stuff). So You can call it a form of whatever you want. It still sprang form the CMA roots.

By the way, you do have a nice site. Nice Monkey form. Our monkey doesn't look to be too different (our stances are generally lower).

And GC it's all good. I don't get offended easily. I may challenge assumptions and the like, but its all with a cool head. Continue being a good christian or buddhist.

[Golden Tiger]

I know I know JP you probably don't want to be my buddy now but as a budist and a good Christian I am compelled to tell the truth.

After taking a gander at some of you previous post on other threads, I certainly hope your kong foo is better than your practice of Budism and your good Christian values:rolleyes: .


113 pages and Golden Tiger never showed us his nipples, though.

You want the money shot, you are going to have to fork over some mulahhh:D

And for the record, I also saw the monkey form on GC's site and it looked nice. In fact, very similar in style to the monks demonstration I happen to see way back.

And I would have to agree with JP. Where it was introduced, I am not sure but in watching a lot of vids of other styles, it seems that we do place a lot more emphasis on power (all kicks and punches) over style and artistic form. Probably due to the fact that the early students were a bunch of un-coordinated white guys that just wanted to learn how to fight.

Anyhoooo.....

[Green Cloud]

Ok guys that's cool, GT toushe on the buddhist remark but as JP pointed out this is a forum so one can't judge my character based on my rantings and ravings.

I have actualy made some friends and some good contacts on this site altough it seems that sometimes I have to stir the pot to get some answers. you guys seem to be very devoted to your style and I admire that.

Don't worry I'm not trolling just patroling, I'm not sure what that meant but it rhymed:D

greencloud.net

[Crushing Fist]

It seems to me that SD catches the most flack for not wearing the shiny happy kung fu suits that everyone else does and because we go barefoot in our schools (shameful!) all REAL CMA wears nifty little kung fu shoes to train in...


its important


but seriously, if there is one thing SD isn't its Kempo.

it may teach a wide variety of styles but it is not kempo. Many of the forms taught are the same as or very similar to forms taught in other TCMA

most of the beginner stuff is pretty unique unto itself as far as I have seen


the atlanta site used to have lots of videos but in its latest incarnation they are gone.

I'm not sure why but I have been told in the past that less than honorable parties have taught SD forms as their own without permission, which is frowned upon.

If a recognized system simply also had a very similar or identical form in its curriculum I think they can easily tell this fact, versus some karate guy who suddenly starts offering kung fu which is a direct copy of an SD form.


I personally have no concern for copyright issues and the like, but at the same time I would not go against the wishes or directives of my teachers in this.


I've been looking for SD vids online myself lately and have come up dry...

if anyone could find some and link them here that would be cool.

[Golden Tiger]

I've been looking for SD vids online myself lately and have come up dry...


what would you like to see? send me a pm with your email and i will see what santa has in his bag of presents.:cool:

[rickyscaggs]

Just thought I'd mention, Shaolin-Do forms are the most retarded fake crap I've ever seen. :eek: I can't believe so many people are stupid enough to believe that garbage. But I have to give it up to the guy who started it. You've gotta be a genius to come up with such a ridiculous story, names, and fake cartoon grandmasters, and get people to buy into it. Priceless! :D

[Judge Pen]

Ok ricky, I'll bite. What forms of Sd have you seen and where? What experience do you have with the style? By the way, what style/experience do you have so we can understand your perspective?

Not trying to start a fight or anything...just curious.

[rickyscaggs]

I watched a bunch of videos I saw on a SD website once. I don't remember where. But there were different animal forms, etc. Typical made-up look of forms you see at any ol' frauds "kungfu" school. Goofy-looking movements that didn't go together and changed directions all over the place. The praying mantis especially. It looked like the boy was autistic rather than practicing praying mantis. (apologies if he actually was)

I'll just say I've had my experience with frauds in the past. There is a common trend. They each make up the silliest unverifiable stories for lineage and they each are masters of 4 or 5+ styles. Red flags everywhere! They usually make me sick but SD is amazing. It's crazy how widespread it has gotten. Usually frauds can only keep one low-key school in a small town. Rarely do they grow into huge schools in big cities, and rarely do they branch out across the US.

I always thought, if frauds want to get away with it, why not make a more simple story and focus on just one style. But SD is a good one for up and coming frauds to look up to. :rolleyes:

Anyway I'm not concerned with it. I just want to express my admiration for this guy's genius. He actually got people to fall for it and even spread across the country. Simply amazing! :D

[Green Cloud]

Jp, I think the problem is that SD is so obscure that it's easier to judge a book by it's cover based on the limmited info that's out there. People are just getting the wrong impression.

You have to admit it's kind of strange that such a large organization with what over 100 schools not to have more info or should I say a better representation of the style.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but take my style for instance lama kung fu for instance. It doesn't get any more obscure than that. There are just a handful of schools teaching the style but we have tons of info pics and vids out there.

I think if you educate the public on SD it wouldn't get so much flack, but right now people can only go on what they see. In todays world when a style is a secret it usualy means that there is something to hide.

greencloud.net

[Blacktiger]

Jp, I think the problem is that SD is so obscure that it's easier to judge a book by it's cover based on the limmited info that's out there. People are just getting the wrong impression.

You have to admit it's kind of strange that such a large organization with what over 100 schools not to have more info or should I say a better representation of the style.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but take my style for instance lama kung fu for instance. It doesn't get any more obscure than that. There are just a handful of schools teaching the style but we have tons of info pics and vids out there.

I think if you educate the public on SD it wouldn't get so much flack, but right now people can only go on what they see. In todays world when a style is a secret it usualy means that there is something to hide.

greencloud.net


I think thats just it. Its a mish mash of everything - like an all you can eat kung fu style and I thinks thats why people slam it, no real tradition.

[Judge Pen]

If you go back and look at this forum, we discussed those vids in detail. You will see that I critiqued them pretty harshly too. They were our forms, but most of them (there were a couple of exceptions) were horrible. Lazy practitioners. No quality control. Sacrificing the fundamentals for a bit of flash. Not that I'm the most gifted practitioner either, but I do ok. If you ever get to knoxville, I'll be more than glad to show my stuff. Ask anyone here who has met me. I get around at least in the southeast.

Also, if you look at this forum, you will see that one of the largest complaints I have with my own style is the sheer number of forms that are taught too quickly. Some schools just teach too much extra stuff. I knew green sashes from other styles that had more "extra" material than I did after practing for 15 years. It's not that the material isn't good, but its taught and people don't take the time to get really good at one form before moving on to another. The result? All their forms look the same!

I don't think my style is a fraud. I certainly think that there are myths and tall tales about the lineage (things get exagerrated at times) but I see that from a lot of well-respected styles too. So I can over-look that.

You can complain about the websites, but those things are up to the indivudal schools. All I can do is talk about what I know. I've done forms in public. I've been judged in open tournaments. Some good and some bad. I do what I can to be realistic about me and my style. I'll answer any question you guys have.

[Crushing Fist]

call it a "mish mash"

in a way its undeniable... its not one style and only one style.

but I'll tell you what I was told,"there is a method to the madness"

the material SD teaches was selected for a reason by someone who I have a lot of respect for.

The proof of the "method to the madness" is self-evident to me in my own experience. that is I have not ever, anywhere seen such impressive displays of martial skill. I've seen better gymnastics, and prettier forms... but there is a jaw-dropping wow-factor when I see the masters of SD perform. The Master I know best (Senior Master Grooms) has such amazing martial skill that it is its own proof. If it was a complete fraud then how could he be such an excellent fighter?

All the demos I've seen from SD masters just blow me away.


scaggs has no idea how right he is about its inventor being a genius, just not in the way he means.


how can an obvious fraud become so popular scaggs wonders?


how indeed...


certainly I agree that SD suffers from certain image problems, which is unfortunate... and due to the policy of not allowing filming of masters demos it seems unlikely that this particular matter will change. :( but it does seem that some higher up people are attempting to address the image issue.

but for anyone who has any actual interest in this topic, find an SD master, any SD master, and I guarantee you will be impressed.

[Golden Tiger]

All the demos I've seen from SD masters just blow me away.



Careful now, you are going to make this old man blush:D


Welcome to the party ricky. And I have to ask, is that your real name or are you just a big fan?

[rickyscaggs]

I can usually watch a form for the form itself. Not just for how the person does it. I can tell from the form how it is supposed to look or how it could be much better if done correctly. Even if I don't know the form, I can see the potential. That's not very difficult. And I didn't talk about anyone imperticular. The people would make the forms look different but the forms would make the people look the same. They're doing the same movements. And from what I saw, the forms were so easily identifiable as fraud. Every fraud I've ever seen, besides the few real forms they picked up somewhere they all make up their own forms and you can always tell. They do a bunch of meaningless stuff this way, turn around and do some goofy stuff that way, kick backward, front roll, punch this way, kick that way, act like a tiger with no sort of sense, etc.. It's completely made up crap to me. I've seen it too many times. And it's always something "basic" because the higher stuff you have to learn in dark caves away from human beings because it's super secret and super deadly. :rolleyes:


The Master I know best (Senior Master Grooms) has such amazing martial skill that it is its own proof. If it was a complete fraud then how could he be such an excellent fighter?

Good fighters are born, not learned.

I've seen students with no prior experience go to a fraud school and learn a bunch of crap but actually be able to do it well and beat the teachers, because all they needed was the experience with fighting for their natural skills to come out. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fraud crap they were learning. If you have two arms and two legs with natural skill, that's all you need. A little experience and you're good to go. You don't even need martial arts training. There are many students of real martial arts who would get whooped by guys who haven't stepped foot in a gym but had fight experience. They didn't need to learn any techniques.

[rickyscaggs]

Welcome to the party ricky. And I have to ask, is that your real name or are you just a big fan?

Neither actually. :D Small fan maybe.

[Blacktiger]

I dont know if this has been suggested as I have not read this whole thread but why dont some of the people who are in support of this style post some links to some footage showing forms or applications etc.

All the other kung fu style forums run threads of this nature why not SD?

[Crushing Fist]

scaggs,

it would be nice to know what SD forms you are referring to...


I won't try to change your opinion but I'd like to know how you came to it

I've seen similar critiscism but its always so general, never about anything specific I can relate to.

"the stuff I saw was obvious crap"


if you don't know what the form was maybe you could describe it and we can figure out what you saw.


I'm guessing it wasn't one of Mullins' sons doing second level broadsword or him doing chainwhip...

[Blacktiger]

Anyone got links to footage of forms, demos, applications etc ????

[Green Cloud]

Hello crushing, Like I've said before I have no judgement to make since I know nothing about the style so I can't coment on how bad or good it is. Unfortunatly in to days world people need proof and that's the problem. How can anyone establish an opinion without ever seeing any representation of the style.

That's not fare to ask us to just take your word for it, we're not in Kansas anymore ToTo. This is the real world and in the kung fu world if you don't represent and prove that you are the real thing than the kung fu community won't accept it.

If it's an eklectic system of martial arts so what there's nothing wrong with that. Especialy if it's a mix of real styles and real aplicatios with forms that have meaning or as you guys say bunkai.

Or maybe it's a new system or creation why not go out there and convince people how great the style is, that's how all systems of kung fu started out. And I've got to tell you over the years of seen some weird stuff.

I've been in the MA buiss. a long time and schools never do anything by accidents, it's all about image. I know what SD is about but just like a magician I hate to reveal the secrets of this buiss.

For one thing the whole shhh! it's a secret our stuff is so deadly we have to keep it a secret from the world bit is only done to create a sense of mystasism this atracts the nerdy suburban yuppies that watch kung fu flicks. These trekies expect some kind of mystesism since kung fu is steeped in such ritualisti crap.

Keep in mind comercial MA schools are ego based buissneses, that's how they make their money. Schools pray on student's egoes and insecure weaknesess.
You go to a Kung Fu school and they say, we need to interview you before we accept you into our cult because we are the knights templer and we protect the holy grail.

The nerdy trecky sais to himself cool just like television I'l pay anything I'm sold please accept me. Now here is where the ego stuff sets in, The student doesn't mind or question that his stuff isn't real after he goes to a couple of tournaments. He's thinking I got one more year to black and even if I can't fight it doesn't matter because my style is a secret and girls dig that.

Okay here is the craziest fact about this buiss. the less you know the more money you make. It's a lot eazier to make your kung fu real simple since most people are simple. I'ts a lot easier if your lazy clients never suffer in their training since they are paying you to pacify their egoes.

Now if this art is truly an art form of kung fu then it should be hung up like a canvas for the publick to see and to be subject to critisizim, case in point Picaso or Polac these guys were the subject of ridicule. Now they are considered briliant masters of modern art.

greencloud.net

[Crushing Fist]

Hello crushing, Like I've said before I have no judgement to make since I know nothing about the style so I can't coment on how bad or good it is. Unfortunatly in to days world people need proof and that's the problem. How can anyone establish an opinion without ever seeing any representation of the style.

That's not fare to ask us to just take your word for it, we're not in Kansas anymore ToTo. This is the real world and in the kung fu world if you don't represent and prove that you are the real thing than the kung fu community won't accept it.



I'm not asking anyone to take my word for anything

as far as I know there just isn't anything on the www to "prove" anything to anyone and it just isn't up to me one way or the other.

what I suggested was to check it out in person, but I know that isn't realistic for everyone.

As far as secrecy, I don't know about that. The SD recipe for Iron Bone Medicine is kept a secret but the rest is more of a copyright thing, not a mystery cult thing.


and suffering... man I can tell you I have suffered plenty in my training, and I expect to suffer plenty more...

but yeah I know what you're saying, I would be the same way

"show me"

but its just not up to me to make that call :(




and yeah some people are born good fighters... but I have seen the worst fighters transform through a thing called hard work and practice into good fighters.

good fighters can become great fighters


its all about time and effort

[Blacktiger]

Im sorry but the top masters of various styles all over the world do demos etc with people from other systems looking on, thats how we all get better and establish whats rubbish and whats the business.

Transparency is the problem here......If there is nothing to hide open the doors heck it cant be that secret what are they affraid of:confused:


If the style is to be taken seriously and legitimate then its masters/teachers/ students have to be able to mix it up with the rest of the MA community.

To not even be able to show footage of any kind is just crazy, you want people to take you as real and legit but you cant provide jack to back anything up.

[Green Cloud]

Ok guys there are over 53,000 views on this thread if that doesn't compel you guys to post some vids or pics I don't know what will

[Judge Pen]

I'm always one to put my money where my mouth is, and since ricky said he could tell what a form should look like and discout the weaknesses of the performer, then, heck, that's an open invitiation for a bad forms person like me to step up.

If you had read another thread, you would know that I participated in the SACMAT CMA tournament in Asheville NC this February. I did advanced empty hand, advanced weapon and advanced fighting. I placed third in weapon and fighting. I did my most advanced empty hand form and didn't place, but I ran out of gas at the end and was sloppy in a couple of places, so I shouldn't have placed. I'm working on video. I just got a program on how to edit vid, but I haven't figured out how to make it work yet. I'm slow with computers, but I will post me doing a weapon form and me fighting a match.

[Golden Tiger]

Shall we.....



I can usually watch a form for the form itself. Not just for how the person does it. I can tell from the form how it is supposed to look or how it could be much better if done correctly.

So far ricky, you have neglected to inform us (me) of your MA background that allows you to make inferences such as this by merely watching. And the above statement is generally refered to as "arm chair quarter backing".


And from what I saw, the forms were so easily identifiable as fraud. ...... .....They do a bunch of meaningless stuff this way, turn around and do some goofy stuff that way, kick backward, front roll, punch this way, kick that way, act like a tiger with no sort of sense, etc.. It's completely made up crap to me. I've seen it too many times.

That could be said about most forms in most styles. And it is generally seen that way until someone actually picks apart said form and sees that it is actually teaching the body (or mind) and new skill set. But then again, until you take the time to look, you only see the forest, not the trees.



And it's always something "basic" because the higher stuff you have to learn in dark caves away from human beings because it's super secret and super deadly.

Everything taught in SD is open to everyone, always has been. Now some of the "higher" forms are more physically demanding so yes, it is usually reserved to those that have practiced longer. And as to being super deadly, the most secretest things I have learned is just are dangerous as the first thing I learned on my first day of class (of course when I do it, its all super double deadly:rolleyes: )



Good fighters are born, not learned.

Thanks Mom, Dad:D


why dont some of the people who are in support of this style post some links to some footage showing forms or applications etc.

Because of the negative bias that exists here, any thing that was posted would be ripped to shreds, even if it rocked. Why open yourself up to crap like that? I personally have every form, tourney, demo, and get together on tape but have absolutely no desire to set myself or others in SD up for the keyboard lashing that would come.

Interesting test I did once. Posted a vid of one of the SD forms done without the uniform on another thread, similar to this one. Said it was blah blah and waited. While some criticized my personal performance, NO ONE said anything bad about the form. Then, a bit later, I posted the form done in our snazzy uniforms and guess what??? Come on..guess...give up? To my suprise (not), the form was absolutely trashed beyond belief. But thats human nature. If you are a republican and a democrat comes up with an idea, even if it a good one, you will trash it. Guilt by association.



I've been in the MA buiss. a long time and schools never do anything by accidents, it's all about image. I know what SD is about but just like a magician I hate to reveal the secrets of this buiss.

So have I green. This actually makes something like 32 years. Darn, thats a lot time. Anyway, SD has been around for 40 years. Turds won't float that long with out being flushed. There has to be something useful there.

And as for the SD marketing strategy, I can assure you there is none. Perhaps lately, but for the past 39 years, it has depended on word of mouth, flyers, and a little ad in the yellow pages. If you have any secrets you want to share, please, send them my way;) .



Keep in mind comercial MA schools are ego based buissneses, that's how they make their money. Schools pray on student's egoes and insecure weaknesess.

Gee, I hope none of your students read this. You don't seem to have a very high opinion of them now do you GC?



Anyway, have to work a little now. See everyone a little later:D

[Judge Pen]

Interesting test I did once. Posted a vid of one of the SD forms done without the uniform on another thread, similar to this one. Said it was blah blah and waited. While some criticized my personal performance, NO ONE said anything bad about the form. Then, a bit later, I posted the form done in our snazzy uniforms and guess what??? Come on..guess...give up? To my suprise (not), the form was absolutely trashed beyond belief. But thats human nature. If you are a republican and a democrat comes up with an idea, even if it a good one, you will trash it. Guilt by association.

I always wanted to do that. I postulated that the same thing would happen, but thanks for proving my theory GT.

but I'm a big boy, I know that some people will say my stuff was crap and others will say, eh, it's ok, but the performer really needs to practice. Such is life.

BTW ricky, feel like sharing your stuff too? Since we're all in an open mood and all.

[Judge Pen]

So far ricky, you have neglected to inform us (me) of your MA background that allows you to make inferences such as this by merely watching. And the above statement is generally refered to as "arm chair quarter backing".


He's not said peep to me either, but everyone's a master here (until they proove otherwise).

Serioulsy Ricky, you going share your perspective or are you just going to criticize?

[Judge Pen]

Anyone got links to footage of forms, demos, applications etc ????

I remember one thread about breaking came up. Some people here posted that the concrete suspended break that they saw their teacher do was really impressive, so I found a link of Sin The' doing the same and no one said a peep about it. I've found that if people see something that's actually good about SD here, they tend to ignore it. People only talk when they think its bad.

[Green Cloud]

Sorry GT I went off on a tangent I wasn't implying that you guys are all about the mystical stuff, but that a lot of schools do that. There are a lots of MA scams out there, and as far as my student's reading this stuff I have a link to the forum on my site and I encourage my people to go on it.

I like to keep an open book, this keeps my studen'ts well informed and apreciative of what they are getting at my kwoon (do jo).

JP as far as demoing forms on a Vid you guys have already explained to us that the forms in SD aren't pretty. That's ok not all kung fu systems have sexy form choreagraphy.

I think you should show what makes the style great, and from the sounds of it, I would say it's your fighting and aplication. Take a style like Wing chun the forms are ugly but when you watch the aplications then it all makes sense. Styles like bak mei, southern preying mantis, wu mei and so on aren't pretty styles at all, but boy are they effective.

Most guys on this forum seem to be very sharp. You might get the ocassional troll and varying opinions but when it comes to good fighting everyone usualy forms pretty good opinions. Effective tech. is something that everyone likes to see regardless of wether a style is pretty or wether you have fancy uniforms.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

[Judge Pen]

Sorry GT I went off on a tangent I wasn't implying that you guys are all about the mystical stuff, but that a lot of schools do that. There are a lots of MA scams out there, and as far as my student's reading this stuff I have a link to the forum on my site and I encourage my people to go on it.

I like to keep an open book, this keeps my studen'ts well informed and apreciative of what they are getting at my kwoon (do jo).

JP as far as demoing forms on a Vid you guys have already explained to us that the forms in SD aren't pretty. That's ok not all kung fu systems have sexy form choreagraphy.

I think you should show what makes the style great, and from the sounds of it, I would say it's your fighting and aplication. Take a style like Wing chun the forms are ugly but when you watch the aplications then it all makes sense. Styles like bak mei, southern preying mantis, wu mei and so on aren't pretty styles at all, but boy are they effective.

Most guys on this forum seem to be very sharp. You might get the ocassional troll and varying opinions but when it comes to good fighting everyone usualy forms pretty good opinions. Effective tech. is something that everyone likes to see regardless of wether a style is pretty or wether you have fancy uniforms.

greencloud.net

greencloud.com

I plan on posting a fight of me and another guy who claimed a different shaolin lineage. He was clearly the more gifted athalete with an amazing stretch and foot speed. We fought three 90 second rounds. I won the first, he won the second (although frankly I think I won that one too ;) ) and he won the third (no arguments--I got winded and he took care of business). The guy eventually won the tournament.

I think even though it was a losing effort that it clearly shows martial technique and application that I can trace back to my teaching and my forms. Be patient while I figure out the editing and then how to post it on youtube or something.

[Green Cloud]

That sounds great I can apreciate that:)

[Judge Pen]

Hopefully I'll figure out how to put the vids up this weekend.

Hey what happened to rickyscaggs? We ask him to share a bit of background information and he disappears. I still want to know what made him the grand googely mook in judging what fors are real and what's been "made up?" I mean, it's a simple question, right?

[humbleman]

in shaolin-do training? I quote Audioslave: "Things that I've loved, things that I've lost/Things I've held sacred that I've dropped/I won't lie no more you can bet/I dont want want to learn what I'll need to forget/ Bend me, shape me, I love the way you are/slow and sweetly, like never before/calm and sleeping, we won't bring up the past/ so discreetly, we won't look back I like throwing my voice and breaking guitars/cause it doesn't remind me of anything/I like playing in the sand, what's mine is ours, if it doesn't remind me of anything. Ain't it so, Ba-Gua Lady? Spare us suffering? Where ever DO these people get their info from???

[humbleman]

of course, my beautiful Lady of Nine Heavens. Look it up, doofus.

[humbleman]

Hello crushing, Like I've said before I have no judgement to make since I know nothing about the style so I can't coment on how bad or good it is. Unfortunatly in to days world people need proof and that's the problem. How can anyone establish an opinion without ever seeing any representation of the style.

That's not fare to ask us to just take your word for it, we're not in Kansas anymore ToTo. This is the real world and in the kung fu world if you don't represent and prove that you are the real thing than the kung fu community won't accept it.

If it's an eklectic system of martial arts so what there's nothing wrong with that. Especialy if it's a mix of real styles and real aplicatios with forms that have meaning or as you guys say bunkai.

Or maybe it's a new system or creation why not go out there and convince people how great the style is, that's how all systems of kung fu started out. And I've got to tell you over the years of seen some weird stuff.

I've been in the MA buiss. a long time and schools never do anything by accidents, it's all about image. I know what SD is about but just like a magician I hate to reveal the secrets of this buiss.

For one thing the whole shhh! it's a secret our stuff is so deadly we have to keep it a secret from the world bit is only done to create a sense of mystasism this atracts the nerdy suburban yuppies that watch kung fu flicks. These trekies expect some kind of mystesism since kung fu is steeped in such ritualisti crap.

Keep in mind comercial MA schools are ego based buissneses, that's how they make their money. Schools pray on student's egoes and insecure weaknesess.
You go to a Kung Fu school and they say, we need to interview you before we accept you into our cult because we are the knights templer and we protect the holy grail.

The nerdy trecky sais to himself cool just like television I'l pay anything I'm sold please accept me. Now here is where the ego stuff sets in, The student doesn't mind or question that his stuff isn't real after he goes to a couple of tournaments. He's thinking I got one more year to black and even if I can't fight it doesn't matter because my style is a secret and girls dig that.

Okay here is the craziest fact about this buiss. the less you know the more money you make. It's a lot eazier to make your kung fu real simple since most people are simple. I'ts a lot easier if your lazy clients never suffer in their training since they are paying you to pacify their egoes.

Now if this art is truly an art form of kung fu then it should be hung up like a canvas for the publick to see and to be subject to critisizim, case in point Picaso or Polac these guys were the subject of ridicule. Now they are considered briliant masters of modern art.

greencloud.netnew form of meditation- oiling the chain whip. amazing how much patience it takes if you do it right. going from one link to the next, putting on just the right amount of oil, and working it in. amazing how much faster and quieter the thing is when you finish, and meditating on the purpose of your labor as you go. kind of like saying a rosary. to the godess of death.

[JuJitsuJoe]

Well ive always been pretty skeptical about some of the claims made but I have always said they are in good shape. I got a video of a Shaolin Do Guy from around Hazard Ky who entered a grappling match. He didnt know alot but he managed to beat the highschool wrestler he fought. He also has like a record of 6-1 or so in MMA. I fought him saturday and it was brutal. I will have a video of that fight later but here is him in his grappling match.

http://media.putfile.com/ShaolinDo

This was me after our fight.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/JuJitsuJoe/MyOuchy.jpg

[Judge Pen]

JJJ,

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting stuff. I'm looking forward to a report and the vid of your fight with him.

[JuJitsuJoe]

No problem. He was very skilled and hit very hard. He was strong as heck too. I almost had him a few times and vice versa. The best thing was even after that battle we hung out and laughfed about it. I dont see that kind of respect and honor very much at these types of events. I cant wait to see the video either.....
... even though I lost.

[Green Cloud]

humbleman are you trying to make a point?? or are you a poet and I don't know it??:p

[humbleman]

No, seriously. I thought, well, just splash some oil on and you're done. Nothing is that easy if you do it right, it seems.:D

[humbleman]

inspired me, I think. especially the part where the Irish conscripts charged the Scottish lines, met them in the middle of the battlefield, shook hands and then turned and charged the english. All that hand to hand stuff gave me a testosterone rush.:eek:

[Judge Pen]

No problem. He was very skilled and hit very hard. He was strong as heck too. I almost had him a few times and vice versa. The best thing was even after that battle we hung out and laughfed about it. I dont see that kind of respect and honor very much at these types of events. I cant wait to see the video either.....
... even though I lost.

You have my utmost respect for volunteering this information. I'm really looking forward to hearing and seeing more. Also, can you give us any idea about your opponent? How long he has trained and with whom?

[JuJitsuJoe]

Well I dont have alot of info to give. I dont want to cause him any trouble because I know this type of thing is frowned upon by most of the Shaolin-Do higher ups.
I dont know if he is still training because I think the guy who was teaching Shaolin-Do in Hazard still is not doing so anymore.
He did wear his gi in some of his other fights so he was proud enoughf of his training there to want to show it.

I cant rember alot of the match at all, its all kind of a blurr. I know that we went 3min in the first round and then somewhere in the secound we had to be restarted to standing position and then I rember somehow we were back on the ground and he got up and I was still on the ground using my legs to try and keep him off of me and then he got a side controll or mount and hit me in the face a few times and the reff called it.

There was a point where he punched me in the face while we were standing and he followed with a roundhouse kick to my face. Heh heh I tried to psyche him out by making a gesture like. "Is that it?" and charged him. Hmm at one poing he had me in his guard and I was trying to hit him in his face. I got him once but the next one was going to be perfect and I watched it stop inches from his face. I had pushed him into the turnbuckle and my punch got stoped by the ropes.

Like I said we were laughfing about it all afterwards. He asked didnt that hurt when I kicked you? I said "Well yeah, but I didnt want you to know it and was trying to pshyce you out." "Well it worked" he said.

Great guy, great fight.

[Judge Pen]

Well I dont have alot of info to give. I dont want to cause him any trouble because I know this type of thing is frowned upon by most of the Shaolin-Do higher ups.

It may be frowned on by a couple of higher-ups, but I think most would be proud. I know that my teacher has a student that decided to particiapte in a MMA match in Louisville, KY. Not only did he approve, but he went to Louisville to watch.



Great guy, great fight.

Good to hear. Actually, I always seem to make good friends with the people that I fight. The way I see it, if you're evenly matched then the firgh eliminates the ego. I may not have won every fight I've ever been in, but I've always been respected at the end even when I've lost.

[dainos]

this is gotta be the longest thread in the whole kung fu forum

[JuJitsuJoe]

My MMa fight vs Shaolin-Do student

http://media.putfile.com/2nd-fight I am the one in black and he is in the red.

[Judge Pen]

Great. Thanks for sharing Joe. It's always nice to see an SD student step up to fight. Looked like a pretty even match with exception to the first jab round-house combo.

[JuJitsuJoe]

Yeah, Even though I kept going after that Im sure it had alot to do with my performace after it. My bruises from it are gone but it still hurts. Heh heh.

I got to make myself throw punches and block better.

[Judge Pen]

I know enough about grappling to know that I should stick to my feet and keep striking. I practice take-down defense etc., but someone who really knows their stuff could mess me up on the ground. There was once that you were on the ground and he was on his feet and he voluntarily went to the ground with you. I would have waited for you to get up, but that's only because my ground-game is average at best.

He seemed pretty balanced, though.

[MasterKiller]

but someone who really knows their stuff could mess me up on the ground.

This is a common misconception.

The truth is, someone who knows a little ground fighting will mess up someone who knows next to nothing about ground fighting.

Mostly because the guy who never trains for it will exhaust himself on the ground trying to fight his way back to his feet.

That being said, that fight should have been over in about 1 minute if the SD guy had any submission training. He had position on Joe almost the whole fight, but lacked the tools to tap him.

Good show, though. Congrats to both guys.

Joe, you need to work on your half-guard :-P

[Judge Pen]

The truth is, someone who knows a little ground fighting will mess up someone who knows next to nothing about ground fighting.

You know, you're right. I trained with some ground guys for a while and they owned me for the first month or so. Eventually I got to where I could relax and not get winded or submitted and wait for my opportunity to get back up, but I never could submit any of them. I trained with them until Iwent back to school, and I haven't trained with any ground peeps since.

[JuJitsuJoe]

I agree completly he had me in a good position to end it fairly quickly. I would have loved to have switched with him ha ha. He had me in my two worst positions. I could have done more but he was very very strong.

[Green Cloud]

Ok Jp so far I have seen some wresteling clips but where is the info on Shaolin do, you know video footage that we discussed. Just a friendly reminder;)

greencloud.com

[Golden Tiger]

I dont want to cause him any trouble because I know this type of thing is frowned upon by most of the Shaolin-Do higher ups.


We.....er.....they know about this gentleman and have no problem at all. Heck, I would even be willing to bet that a few would offer to help him train if he needed it.



I dont know if he is still training because I think the guy who was teaching Shaolin-Do in Hazard still is not doing so anymore.

The teacher is still teaching there as far as I know and was the one telling us about the student. He was quiet proud of the guy in fact for getting out there and mixing it up.


Ok Jp so far I have seen some wresteling clips but where is the info on Shaolin do, you know video footage that we discussed.

I am going to work on that for you green. Looking at some old stuff I have to post. JP, if something is done at a public demonstration, its becomes public domain....correct?

[sean_stonehart]

I am going to work on that for you green. Looking at some old stuff I have to post. JP, if something is done at a public demonstration, its becomes public domain....correct?


yeppers... mostly if it's your private collection & you're not infringing on any standing copyrights... you should be good to go

JP will have a better definition than me but I believe that's the nuts & bolts of it

[Judge Pen]

Ok Jp so far I have seen some wresteling clips but where is the info on Shaolin do, you know video footage that we discussed. Just a friendly reminder;)

greencloud.com

Yeah, I know. If it wasnt' for work, I would not have any computer time. I have the vid on a dvd....I just need to figure out how to put it on youtube. I tried opening an accout, but I haven't followed up to see if it works. I'll try this weekend.

GT, I think Sean hit it on the head. I really don't know much about intellectual property, really, but if its in public then you can tape it and show to others. You can't make money off of it, though, without permission of the person depicted.

GC, the wrestling clip showed that Sd people are at least as competent as the next art to train people to fight. Really, thought, doesn't it come back to the individual more.

[lxtruong]

With regards to IP, it's definately better to be safe than to be sorry. Especially if one of these days said person is in a position to punch you in the face. Not necessarily because you might be legally liable, but more in the name of good relations with your classmates. The chances of you getting sued are really quite low though. Unless you show a vid of someone doing a kata then their pants fall down. Send that stuff to America's Funniest Home Videos! :)

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks for the info.

And I am not even sure who the guy was or what school he is from. He was good at some of the Hua forms and I have him doing them at a demo (circa 1990 ish). But again, I am reluctant to post anything because I know it will be ripped, good or not. What to do...what to do...

[lxtruong]

Thanks for the info.

And I am not even sure who the guy was or what school he is from. He was good at some of the Hua forms and I have him doing them at a demo (circa 1990 ish). But again, I am reluctant to post anything because I know it will be ripped, good or not. What to do...what to do...

I'd lean towards no. I'd be weirded out/upset if some demo I did from 15 years ago (when I was 11?) suddenly popped up on the 'net without me knowing about it. He might have left SD but that's not the point....

[Judge Pen]

I'd lean towards no. I'd be weirded out/upset if some demo I did from 15 years ago (when I was 11?) suddenly popped up on the 'net without me knowing about it. He might have left SD but that's not the point....

I tend to agree. I would only post myself or another person with that person's permission. I'm not the best represntation of our art, but if I post myself I know I have thick skin and I can critque my own performance and how I should have done it (but for this limitation or this mistake etc).

[Crushing Fist]

Hey,

We had a guy in class last night from the school in Asheville.

He's a Brown Belt named Chris and he seemed to have a lot of fun.

We certainly do some things differently, and it was interesting to compare.

Anyway he's a friendly guy and a pretty good fighter, so we were glad to have him.

I'll have to head up there one of these days.

[Golden Tiger]

I'd lean towards no.


I tend to agree.

Well there you go. The voice of reason wins out. A shame though....figured you all would have wanted to see M. Mullins back when he had hair and M. Shaefer when he was just a youngin....:D

[Judge Pen]

Well there you go. The voice of reason wins out. A shame though....figured you all would have wanted to see M. Mullins back when he had hair and M. Shaefer when he was just a youngin....:D

You can always share privately or get their permission to post here.

[MasterKiller]

Of course, GT could always just post some videos of himself...

[Golden Tiger]

Of course, GT could always just post some videos of himself...

No nipple shot,simple as that.

I would MK but A) I am not that good at forms, never have been. Clumsy white guy with 2 left feet. and B) I am trying to give SD a good name...my performances would not do that, not even close.

[Judge Pen]

I would MK but A) I am not that good at forms, never have been. Clumsy white guy with 2 left feet. and B) I am trying to give SD a good name...my performances would not do that, not even close.

You just described me, but I've already stuck my foot in my mouth, so I'll get a couple of vids up here eventually. You sure you don't want to share my pain?

[Judge Pen]

Can't we discuss more important stuff than Shaolin Do?

Sure, we can. But you posted here. Go play somewhere else if you don't like what we're playing here.

[Blacktiger]

How are those clips coming along?

[Green Cloud]

Hey fellas I was just wondering why do you guys use CMA terminoligy and Japanese to, and what is flying tiger out of the cave?? Could you describe that form to me??

greencloud.net

[brucereiter]

Hey fellas I was just wondering why do you guys use CMA terminoligy and Japanese to, and what is flying tiger out of the cave?? Could you describe that form to me??

greencloud.net

hi green cloud,

live and let live!

you say you are great at kung fu ??? 35 years is a long time. almost as long as i have been alive :-). is this how long you have trained green cloud?

why do you question what "we" do?

what info do you want?

why do you use english and chinese terminoligy on green cloud.net? i mean thats just silly it is a chinese art all mention of it should only be in chinese right.

if you call it a kata, a set, a form, a blah bleeping blahzblopgfrgh set of movments who cares? does the way the name is expressed change the actual art?

what is the lineage of the "tai chi" you teach? is it a martial art or health art?

tell me about the black belt club at green cloud?

how many total forms does your system have?

can your students do applications from these form on a non willing person?

tell us about the green cloud monestary and its history. several hundered years there must be lots of documentation.

interesting system you have here. Chan Tai-San, who was his teacher and his teachers teacher? where did his teachers etc. learn there art?

what proof do you have?

there are so many questions left unanswered on your web sites about your history and your art ... why?

your grandmaster was by many accounts a very skilled martial artist, but can you prove the history of his art and his teachers and their teachers etc ???

my point is not to talk sh*t about your art (i know very little about you or it).
i just want to point out that anyones history is not totally provable. but if yours is please do prove it.

<<
Green Cloud
I am my teachers student
What's your MA style?:
Green Cloud Kung Fu
How long have you trained?:
35 years
Biography:
I'm great at kung fu
Location:
Wading river N.Y.
Interests:
Kung Fu
Occupation:
Kung Fu>>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<< Our Programs

_. Little Ninjas: Course for Children Ages 4 to 7.
_. We build children's coordination, focus, balance, and self-esteem.
_. Juniors/Dragons: Introduction of Green Cloud Martial Arts
_. Course for ages 7 to 15.
_. Provides a reward system to improve children's self-esteem.
_. Teaches children discipline.
_. Channels children's aggression.
_. Teaches children essential self-defense skills.
_. Black Belt Club: More advanced Kung-Fu
_. Adult Kung-Fu: Traditional Chinese Kung-Fu program for ages 16 and up.
_. Cardio Kickboxing: Burn fat, increase metabolism, and create greater endurance.
_. Tai Chi: Provides internal health benefits for the body.
Krav Maga: Fighting system of the Israeli Defense Forces.

_. Northern Siu-Lum Pai
_. Bak-Mei
_. Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
_. Sit Gaut
_. San Shou
_. Southern Eagle Claw
_. Northern Eagle Claw
_. Iron Palm
_. Chi Gung - Hei Gung
_. Chin Na
_. Pankration
_. Nanchuan
_. Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
_. Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come to Green Cloud Kung Fu where we can teach you Kung-Fu, kickboxing, and the martial arts weapons. Green Cloud has been around for several hundreds of years in Toisan China, producing many famous scholars, doctors, and Kung-Fu teachers, such as the famed Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today. The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos. Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts. The winner of several national titles and the feature of numerous national publications, Sifu Kaparos has been nominated to the Kung-Fu Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos is the head of Green Cloud in the U.S.
Our mission is to foster self-improvement and personal development through focused training. We promote physical fitness and positive social interaction in a courteous and fun atmosphere. Our greatest responsibility is to instill in our students a sense of discipline and a code of ethics to inspire them to lead exemplary lives as leaders in the community.
Our school offers a comprehensive training program in several styles of Kung-Fu and Weapons, and also Kickboxing and Beyond Personal Training. For more specific information about the Green Cloud Kung Fu Academy, please visit About Us or just contact us.
Although we honor Martial Arts traditions that go back centuries, we are dynamic and are constantly seeking new and innovative ways to enthuse and excite our students.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>>


best,

b

[Golden Tiger]

ninth drunk, mail

[Judge Pen]

How are those clips coming along?

Well it's 7:38 and I'm at work. I'll be here until about 6:30 or so tonight. Then I'll come home, eat dinner, chill with my wife, stretch out a bit and go to sleep.

At 6:30 tomorrow I'll get up, go to class until about 9:30. Teach a class unitl 12 or so. Take my wife (who is pregnant by the way) out to lunch and do a little baby shopping. Come home and eat dinner. I might be able to work on putting the clip online Saturday night, but, honestly, I'll probably just stetch out and chill with my wife a bit more. She stays home all day and gets lonely so I don't like spending too much time in front of the computer on the weekends. There's more important things in life.

Sunday, I'll get up have breakfast, go back to work for about 4 hours and then come home and mow and trim the yard. Do some other work that needs to be around, go through some more forms and stretch and chill out and watch a movie or something.

So I might get around to posting those clips on youtube. But, I don't want anyone to think that I'm blowing them off, if you'll PM me you address and pay the postage, I'll send you the clips in the mail. How's that? If that won't work, then just be patient. I'll do what I say when I get around to it.

[Golden Tiger]

Take my wife (who is pregnant by the way)

Congrats JP. :D Guess wearing a cup all those years paid off.

[Judge Pen]

Congrats JP. :D Guess wearing a cup all those years paid off.

Thanks. It's nice to know that your boy can actually swim. The cravings are kicking in, so I'm driving about getting food she can eat and actually keep down. Fun stuff! :p

[MasterKiller]

Thanks. It's nice to know that your boy can actually swim. The cravings are kicking in, so I'm driving about getting food she can eat and actually keep down. Fun stuff! :p

In 4 or 5 months you'll have the biggest boobies you've ever touched to play with...you better post that video soon because once those suckers swell you'll be too preoccupied.

Pregnant boobies are the best part.

[Judge Pen]

In 4 or 5 months you'll have the biggest boobies you've ever touched to play with...you better post that video soon because once those suckers swell you'll be too preoccupied.

Pregnant boobies are the best part.

Too late. I'm already preoccupied.

[ninthdrunk]

please, someone start talking crap about SD again...way better than where this thread is going!

:eek:

[Green Cloud]

hi green cloud,

live and let live!

you say you are great at kung fu ??? 35 years is a long time. almost as long as i have been alive :-). is this how long you have trained green cloud?

why do you question what "we" do?

what info do you want?

why do you use english and chinese terminoligy on green cloud.net? i mean thats just silly it is a chinese art all mention of it should only be in chinese right.

if you call it a kata, a set, a form, a blah bleeping blahzblopgfrgh set of movments who cares? does the way the name is expressed change the actual art?

what is the lineage of the "tai chi" you teach? is it a martial art or health art?

tell me about the black belt club at green cloud?

how many total forms does your system have?

can your students do applications from these form on a non willing person?

tell us about the green cloud monestary and its history. several hundered years there must be lots of documentation.

interesting system you have here. Chan Tai-San, who was his teacher and his teachers teacher? where did his teachers etc. learn there art?

what proof do you have?

there are so many questions left unanswered on your web sites about your history and your art ... why?

your grandmaster was by many accounts a very skilled martial artist, but can you prove the history of his art and his teachers and their teachers etc ???

my point is not to talk sh*t about your art (i know very little about you or it).
i just want to point out that anyones history is not totally provable. but if yours is please do prove it.

<<
Green Cloud
I am my teachers student
What's your MA style?:
Green Cloud Kung Fu
How long have you trained?:
35 years
Biography:
I'm great at kung fu
Location:
Wading river N.Y.
Interests:
Kung Fu
Occupation:
Kung Fu>>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<< Our Programs

_. Little Ninjas: Course for Children Ages 4 to 7.
_. We build children's coordination, focus, balance, and self-esteem.
_. Juniors/Dragons: Introduction of Green Cloud Martial Arts
_. Course for ages 7 to 15.
_. Provides a reward system to improve children's self-esteem.
_. Teaches children discipline.
_. Channels children's aggression.
_. Teaches children essential self-defense skills.
_. Black Belt Club: More advanced Kung-Fu
_. Adult Kung-Fu: Traditional Chinese Kung-Fu program for ages 16 and up.
_. Cardio Kickboxing: Burn fat, increase metabolism, and create greater endurance.
_. Tai Chi: Provides internal health benefits for the body.
Krav Maga: Fighting system of the Israeli Defense Forces.

_. Northern Siu-Lum Pai
_. Bak-Mei
_. Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
_. Sit Gaut
_. San Shou
_. Southern Eagle Claw
_. Northern Eagle Claw
_. Iron Palm
_. Chi Gung - Hei Gung
_. Chin Na
_. Pankration
_. Nanchuan
_. Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
_. Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come to Green Cloud Kung Fu where we can teach you Kung-Fu, kickboxing, and the martial arts weapons. Green Cloud has been around for several hundreds of years in Toisan China, producing many famous scholars, doctors, and Kung-Fu teachers, such as the famed Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today. The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos. Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts. The winner of several national titles and the feature of numerous national publications, Sifu Kaparos has been nominated to the Kung-Fu Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos is the head of Green Cloud in the U.S.
Our mission is to foster self-improvement and personal development through focused training. We promote physical fitness and positive social interaction in a courteous and fun atmosphere. Our greatest responsibility is to instill in our students a sense of discipline and a code of ethics to inspire them to lead exemplary lives as leaders in the community.
Our school offers a comprehensive training program in several styles of Kung-Fu and Weapons, and also Kickboxing and Beyond Personal Training. For more specific information about the Green Cloud Kung Fu Academy, please visit About Us or just contact us.
Although we honor Martial Arts traditions that go back centuries, we are dynamic and are constantly seeking new and innovative ways to enthuse and excite our students.

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>>


best,

b


Dude all you had to do is click the linkgreencloud.net There is actualy tons of info on the style my master and what not, infact there is tons of info on the forum about Chan Tai San and his teachers.

You can also go to lama.org or just click the link on my site.

Any way I'm not sure why you are so touchy, I just asked why it is that Shaoilin Do uses Japanese terminoligy.

Anyhoo I get the feeling by your attitude that people are not supposed to inquire about your style. Hmmm sounds like you got something to hide that's all.

[Crushing Fist]

GC

I don't think he intended to sound touchy or to imply that questions are not welcome...

It's just that the same questions get asked and the same accusations made so many times it can get repetitive.

For instance your question about the japanese terminology has been answered and debated on this very thread numerous times, despite the fact that it is answered on the history page of the main shaolin-do website and many others.

the answer is that it came to america through indonesia where (as the story goes) it was superficially hidden as a japanese style in order to dissuade a certain cultural bias present there.


It would be very easy to ask why you teach various non-chinese martial arts at your school or why you have a program called "little ninjas" (ninja is a japanese term, right?) but I am not accusing you of anything and I understand that this is just your way.

If you are realy interested in the history of shaolin-do a websearch will bring up quite a lot of information, and quite a lot of the sort of attacks that shaolin-do has been the victim of for quite some time.



as for your question on the "flying tiger" it is a very short introductory form that beginners learn as one of their first "animal styles". It involvles lots of tiger claw palm strikes and rakes, as well as arm locks and traps in a quite compact little set of moves.


all questions are welcome, but please do make an effort to answer the easy ones yourself with the online F.A.Q.s and Histories etc.

Thanks :)

[BentMonk]

Read, learn, turn off computer, go practice your chosen art, be happy.

http://www.zhenwei.org/History/HistoryMartialArts.htm

BTW...Yes, Shaolin Do is for real, at least as real as any other MA practiced today. :D

[brucereiter]

Dude all you had to do is click the linkgreencloud.net There is actualy tons of info on the style my master and what not, infact there is tons of info on the forum about Chan Tai San and his teachers.

You can also go to lama.org or just click the link on my site.

Any way I'm not sure why you are so touchy, I just asked why it is that Shaoilin Do uses Japanese terminoligy.

Anyhoo I get the feeling by your attitude that people are not supposed to inquire about your style. Hmmm sounds like you got something to hide that's all.

hi there green cloud ...

there is nothing to hide. inquire all you want just ask some new questions i have been following this shaolin do internet thing since the mid 90's and it is always the same questions.

asking what flying tiger comes out of the cave is was a good and interesting question.

you and others seem to have such a disdane for shaolin do so i am just asking the same type of questions about your system that we always get asked but you will not answer or will you maybe you have things to hide ...

why did you not answer any of my questions about your art? most of the questions i asked were not answered on your web site. and as far as the ones that were answered by your and related websites were all affiliated in some way to chan tai san and offerd no historical proof. do you have somthing to hide?

i have no problem with what you or any other martial arts group does or how they practice and what they think. in your art just like in shaolin do some students are i am sure very skilled and some are well ya know not so skilled.

i am really interested in the history and legends of martial arts.

below are a few more things that caught my eye from your web sites ... ???

<<Sifu Gus Kaparos
Sifu Gus Kaparos began his training at the age of 6 and is a direct disciple of Grandmaster Chan Tai San. He has instructor level ranking in over 10 styles of martial arts. It was this diverse background that allowed him to be a top student of the grandmaster. This 2 time full contact fighting champion met Si-Gung in the late 1980's. He began his training with Si-Gung and was indescribably impressed by this great teacher, "I am and forever will be in awe of the most talented and knowledgeable Kung-Fu Master I have come to know. It is his incredible Kung-Fu that made me the man I am today." Si-Gung Chan Tai San adopted Sifu Kaparos in a ceremony called a Bai Sei, that meant the door of knowledge would be opened and shared with him. It was the Grandmaster's dream for Sifu Kaparos to share his unique form of Kung-Fu to the students of Green Cloud Kung-Fu. Sifu Kaparos is a pioneer; he opened the first Kung-Fu school to teach openly to the public on Long Island, as well as hosting the first all Kung-Fu tournament in New York. He also was awarded the prestigious "Master of the Year" Award by the International Kung-Fu Association, which also inducted him into their Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos has been the feature of numerous magazine articles and television news stories.

Some of these students became instructors. One of these instructors is Sifu Ivan Pellei.>>

10 black belts wow! thats alot. it says started training at age 6, what training was that? what are these black belts in? i thought it took at least 5 years of hard work to earn a black belt. that like 50 years of training before he even met his grandmaster he must be old ...also says did not start training until the "late 1980's" with your grandmaster was it 1989?


<<Grandmaster Chan trained with histories most famous Sifu, and used his Kung-Fu for its intended purpose - Self Preservation. Yes, he actually fought with and killed several people. I say this not to impress you, but to impress upon you that Grandmaster Chan was the last of his generation. The styles he used, the skills he developed, really work. He didn't train to open a school, to earn an income or to be famous. He trained to live.>>

most famous in whos book? do you have proof that he killed several people? or were these people he killed while in the military in ww2 fighting japan?
"he did not train to open a school" maybe ... but it seems many of his students have commercial schools that are making good money. (nothing wrong with making money doing somthing you love though)

<<chan tai san became a Master of dozens of Kung-Fu styles and literally every know Chinese Kung-Fu Weapon, Iron Palm, Iron Body and Internal Energy (Chi). He was well respected in China for his Staff technique and was famous for his "Jao-Gung" or Iron-Claw Skill. He has devoted his entire life to training and promoting Chinese Martial Arts in China and abroad. Grandmaster Chan was the coach of the Canton Province Martial Arts Demonstration Team from 1980-1982,>>

he mastered evvvvvery weapon, ironpalm,iron body, internal energy ???? he mastered so many things! prove it??? if he was famous for these things where are the historical documents to back it up.

<<Atatuojin Ah Da Ta
Founder for the style
1st Generation
(2nd-10th Generation master will be added shortly)

Sing Lung (Lo Jeung)
Venerable Monk
(Responsible for bringing Lama Pai Kung-Fu to China)>>

is there any documentation of these people and there skills outside of their circle of peers? if not they must be fake right. i mean the only things i can find on the internet about them are from affiliated groups. sounds fishy to me ...

best,

b

p.s.

humor is good.

[Green Cloud]

Ok Shaolin DO is cool, Hmm let's see I politely asked [SIZE="4"]two questions
[SIZE="1"]you asked me 50 I don't realy know where to begin, none the less at least I was polite.

I don't like to blow my own horn but I am a senior disciple under the late sifu Chan Tai San.

This is common knowledge both on the forum and the entire CMA comunity. I am one of the first to pioneer CMA to long Island.

I realy don't know what you are upset about, I have never herd of Shaolin Do and decided to ask some questions so I can establish an informed opinion.

As far as having hang ups about how people percieve SD, I wasn't aware that SD had a bad Image, but know I see why.

As far as answering all your questions do your own fokin researce, if you don't know who I am maybe your not a real CMS.

Remember courtesy is contagious but so is roodness.

greencloud.net

[unkokusai]

I don't like to blow my own horn but, if you don't know who I am maybe your not a real CMS.


LOL!


:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Remember courtesy is contagious but so is roodness.



But not literacy.


.............................LOL! :D

[Green Cloud]

Crushing Fist first you SDIC didn't mean to be touchy but then read the next post this boy is about to open up a can of woop ass. You people are just to funny :D

Can you say put on these blinders than sighn right here please :(

[unkokusai]

Can you say put on these blinders than sighn right here please



..............................LOL

[Green Cloud]

It's is bull **** stuff like this that gives CMA a bad name. Me " hey guys why Don't you guys compete in CMA " SD " no our tech. are too deadly for competisions. SHH don't ask too many questions because our stuff is too leathal to talk about in public.

Make fun of my spelling all you want unkokusai but ya got to admit it's guys like this that make CMA look culty and stupid.

Common what's the secret, what is it does your lineage date back to the conception of Star Wars. Did SD students have a revelation when they saw Chubaka. Did you all drop to your knees and chant god bless the chosen one.

[Green Cloud]

unkokusai You just jumped to southern forum to stalk me that's spooky. :eek:

Listen dude the moma joke were funny I was just playan wit ya bud. You were just at the right place at the wrong time. ;)

[Green Cloud]

:eek: At this rate with you following me around and helping me with my spelling, I am liable to win a spelling bee. :D

[Green Cloud]

Thanks Max, that does clear thing up for me. As I said before They are Comercial Kempo. It's obvious to me know. :( There are more of them than us but yet they have no pictures no video just a lot of secrecy.

As far as the whole Tourney thing it makes sense. Most franchise schools hold their own tourneys to keep student's from competing in real tornaments. That would be bad for buiss.

[brucereiter]

Thanks Max, that does clear thing up for me. As I said before They are Comercial Kempo. It's obvious to me know. :( There are more of them than us but yet they have no pictures no video just a lot of secrecy.

As far as the whole Tourney thing it makes sense. Most franchise schools hold their own tourneys to keep student's from competing in real tornaments. That would be bad for buiss.

hi green cloud,

please define a "can of whoop ass" ??? please dont open one up if it is what i think it is ... lol ... as far as the whoop ass thing after your 35 years of training you can probably whoop my ass. there are alot of people on this earth who can ...

i really dont think you get the point of my questions to you. i just used you and your system as an example ...
you gave exactly the kind of response i thought you would. you got mad, thought i was disrespecting you etc ... and then you started to insult. i knew you would.

i have heard this same kind of response from sd people ... people are funny!

side note: sin kwang the started teaching in kentucky in the mid 1960's not it the 70's or 80's as stated a few post back. sin the is chinese from indonesia. as stated all over sd websites.

the reason for my long list of stupid questions for you is to make a simple point that your ego seems to not let you hear. i mean no disrespect to you or your teachers with these questions. i am just asking you to prove the history of your art. how can you prove it. will seeing information on some website offer proof? is talking to somone who studies under the same history proof? what is proof?

<<As I said before They are Comercial Kempo>>

i have heard you offer disrespect to shaolin do before i posted my questions to you. for the record the only things i can find on the internet about your styles history is from other schools who study from the same "base" as you.

you have asked more than 2 questions but it is more your statements than your questions i am trying to respond to.

why is it important to "compete" at these stupid cma things? i have never been in one but i have been to a few. i think they are worthless.

as far as shaolin do "being to deadly for competition" you can take the original quote out of context if you like. who cares ...
i train to be healthy and to learn/know how to fight/not get into fights and oh yeah it's fun, not for some stupid competition. the only person to compete with is your self in my opinion.

<<I don't like to blow my own horn but I am a senior disciple under the late sifu Chan Tai San.
This is common knowledge both on the forum and the entire CMA comunity. I am one of the first to pioneer CMA to long Island.>>

cult???

is being one of the first to long island why you offer the little ninja's program and cardio kickboxing?

i am a junior student under a student of grandmaster the ... it is common knowledge on my block. (i am a funny guy!)

if there are any secrets in our art i have not been let in on them. every sd school i know of anyone can watch classes ... there are also several sd clips on the net some good some bad ... just use google (the modern day orical, you dont have to climb the mountain anymore and you get more than one question ... lol)

you forgot to answer my question about all 10 of your black belts.

best,

b

p.s. now i know why i never posted before. it takes to much time. i gotta get up early in the morning to practice ...

[Judge Pen]

Green Cloud, I can give you a bit more info on these folks. SD is a money maker started @ 70's or 80's after the Bruce Lee craze similar to other non-Chinese arts possing as Chinese.

Nope, it started late sixties.


Very similar to Chung Moo Do.

I'm sorry, but CMD is a cult. SD is not.


It is a system put together by some guy (from Indonesia) who collected a bunch of forms and put together some self defense and marketed it in America to make money, like your Fred Villari's or Chung Moo Do.

They are both from Indonesia, yes. They both have a bunch of forms, yes. Nothing wrong with making money. Green Clound, do you teach for free?


They sprout schools like rabbits mating and charge for everything under the sun.

One of the things about SD that I like and don't like is that they do encourage you to teach after you reach a certain level. Most of these schools are small schools that don't pay rent. My first schools was in a high school gym one day a week. I paid $20 bucks a month. My current school is in the fellowship hall of a Babptist Church. I pay $40 buck a month. Hardly a money maker! I don't have to buy my uniform from them; I don't buy my weapons from them. We occassionally do seminars; some I take and some I don't. Other schools might be different, but it's unfair to say its all SD schools. But, I do learn more when I teach, so teaching is an important part of being an overall student.


Only compete in their own tournaments.

Nope. I have competed in as many open style tournaments as I have only SD tournamanets. Two pages back was a clip of a guy who won in a couple of MMA matches. You just don't know what you are talking about there.


And everything is magical and mysterious about their art. Almost cult like.

Nope. There's your share of CMA chi talk there, but it's not any different than many CMA schools that I've visited and worked out with.


There is absolutely nothing related to Chinese Culture in teaching, tradition, respect, etc....

Again, it depends on the school. Most of the first students were country boys from Kentucky, so there is less of that than schools that oringnated in a metropolitan area with a large Asina community.


And they are touchy because everyone is poking and asking questions.

I have answered every question about SD (including all of these types of criticisms) since day one. Sometimes I get tired and frusterated, but never worried that the "truth" will come out. If anything, these forums have helped put me in contact with people that confirm much of what I am taught, not discredit it.


I have a bone with groups like this because I was taken by one and spent a lot of time and money and effort training in somethign that was not what it was told to me to be.

So you're biased (like me). Everyone should take anything we say on these topics with some levity, right?


I did however some good basic training out of it.

Good. I think I have gotten some good basic training too, but wihtout the cult-like atmosphere.


And they will not know the CMA community or understand a respect line or tradition. ??? ok, man, whatever.


Hope this clarifies????? Still 119 pages of this stuff. I now will go play somewhere else on the forum.

Good talking to you. Seriously, feel free to post or PM me as I would love to know why your opinion on SD should be taken over any others, what your experiences in other arts are, and how much experience (and with who) in Sd you have. You know, basic information to allow us some insight in your perspective.

[Judge Pen]

GC, I know your teacher and I respect him. I've seen him demo before. I will post the vids I talked about. The things that SDIC is posting about your website is just things that indicatee marketing. I'm a fan of marketing and the economic model. But is unsubtle point is that anyone can take something from a site out of context and make a federal case over it. Peace and be patient for the videos. (Or send me your mailing address and I'll send them to you on a DVD) I have no secrets at all about this style.

[Green Cloud]

Good morning JP, first of all let me start by oppologizing to you i meant no disrespect. I was just making a point about courtesy to your boy shaolindoiscool.

I am very curious about all systems of martial arts and that is where my questions come from.

As far as releasing a can of woop ass, that was another point I was making to SDIC. Basicaly what I meant was hey you threw the first stone if you don't want me to be a ***** then act accordingly.

This kid has a thing about my ranking and the answere to question is yes I have advanced ranking in many styles including Japanese systems. My feelings about Black belts is that you can wipe your ass with them.

Oh yeah little Ninjas is a curriculum that many MA schools use to teach small children, if you own a school you probably know about it. It's just a cute name that kids relate to. For that matter it could be called the little power rangers program, or the dragons program.

Cardio kickboxing, is not part of kung fu program it is what it is a cardio program and just focuses on kick boxing drills, you know jumping rope bags and focus mits.

It actualy gets the main stream market into our school and brings a lot of money into my school, this keeps me from having to water down my kung fu curiculum and so I can traditional.

Aside from my vast knowledge of CMA I am also a MA buiss. profesional and a consultant. If you guys ever need a hand or a seminar on how to run a profitable MA school without compromising your ethics I am available.

As far as doing a style that not many have herd of that's lama. Ask any respected CMA sifu and they will tell ya about it. It's not a secret it's just rare. My core curiculum is Choy lee fut, not a secret at all. It's one of the most popular systems practiced world wide.

As you can see from my website I'm very open to what ever works. Once again my intentions here is not to bash but to share Ideas and that takes asking questions.

I have not had the time to read all 112 pages on this thread due to the fact there seems to be a lot of bashing.

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.

More info on this style would realy stop people from formulating ignorant opinions. As far as Lama is concerned it maybe rare but their is lot's of info on the style and pictures and video to satisfy peoples curiosity.

Everyone gets made fun of from time to time, do you know how many time people have asked me if our Lama style primarily focuses on Spiting on people.:)

Information keeps peolple well informed and keeps them from formulating biassed opinions.

Oh yea thanks for advertizing my web site Shaolindoiscool.


greenclou.net

[brucereiter]

Good morning JP, first of all let me start by oppologizing to you i meant no disrespect. I was just making a point about courtesy to your boy shaolindoiscool.

I am very curious about all systems of martial arts and that is where my questions come from.

As far as releasing a can of woop ass, that was another point I was making to SDIC. Basicaly what I meant was hey you threw the first stone if you don't want me to be a ***** then act accordingly.

This kid has a thing about my ranking and the answere to question is yes I have advanced ranking in many styles including Japanese systems. My feelings about Black belts is that you can wipe your ass with them.

Oh yeah little Ninjas is a curriculum that many MA schools use to teach small children, if you own a school you probably know about it. It's just a cute name that kids relate to. For that matter it could be called the little power rangers program, or the dragons program.

Cardio kickboxing, is not part of kung fu program it is what it is a cardio program and just focuses on kick boxing drills, you know jumping rope bags and focus mits.

It actualy gets the main stream market into our school and brings a lot of money into my school, this keeps me from having to water down my kung fu curiculum and so I can traditional.

Aside from my vast knowledge of CMA I am also a MA buiss. profesional and a consultant. If you guys ever need a hand or a seminar on how to run a profitable MA school without compromising your ethics I am available.

As far as doing a style that not many have herd of that's lama. Ask any respected CMA sifu and they will tell ya about it. It's not a secret it's just rare. My core curiculum is Choy lee fut, not a secret at all. It's one of the most popular systems practiced world wide.

As you can see from my website I'm very open to what ever works. Once again my intentions here is not to bash but to share Ideas and that takes asking questions.

I have not had the time to read all 112 pages on this thread due to the fact there seems to be a lot of bashing.

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.

More info on this style would realy stop people from formulating ignorant opinions. As far as Lama is concerned it maybe rare but their is lot's of info on the style and pictures and video to satisfy peoples curiosity.

Everyone gets made fun of from time to time, do you know how many time people have asked me if our Lama style primarily focuses on Spiting on people.:)

Information keeps peolple well informed and keeps them from formulating biassed opinions.

Oh yea thanks for advertizing my web site Shaolindoiscool.


greenclou.net

hi green cloud,

let me start this over on the right foot. my "stupid" questions were meant to make a point. i dont think i made it very well though ... sorry for any offense given, but you did respond the way i thought you would ...

i know your grandmaster/system is well known and respected. my questions were not meant to state other wise and no you do not need to prove anything to me or anyone else.

the point i was trying to make was that people can take bits of info from websites and second hand stories they hear and twist it into a bunch of bullsh*t. my intention was not to insult or discredit you or anyone in your system.

i think it is good to make money doing martial arts even to get rich as long as you remain honest, though some people fault shaolin do for that.

i also think it is good to teach children, with most 7 year olds you cant really go to far into "traditional martial arts" you do need to keep in fun and healthy for children and then when the mature they can start to learn the "real" stuff. we have a similar program for children it is i guess a simplified version of what the adults are taught + a few games to keep it fun, i dont think every shaolin do school has this but many people fault shaolin do schools that do.

i have nothing against your rankinig in the 10 other systems, it is actually pretty cool. i think it is good.

the things i posted before are just typical bullsh*t things that people would say about shaolin do. i think it is good to have a well rounded martial background and i do try to meet and feel as many people/styles as i can. i have also studied a few systems before discovering and deciding to stick with shaolin do and they have all enhanced my training here.

regarding what you said about black belt ranking, the senior student of shaolin do under grandmaster the is elder master bill leonard. i have never met him but was told that he said something
like you can take away my rank and the belt around my waist but you can not take away my training or skill. i think that is in line with what you said about wiping you ass with black belts. (it might be a miss quote ... it is second hand info. )

let me respectfully ask, what kinds of information do you think shaolin do should put out there?

oh yeah, you make me feel so young calling me kid ... we are probably about the same age ... you are welcome for the free advertising ... lol ...

its funny you talk about spitting. the first martial arts teacher i had when i was a kid taught a "mantis" like system (he just called it his family style, he was from loas. and i was friends with his son i was only with him for about 3 years ...) but anyways he taught me to collect alot of spit by rubbing my tounge on the top of my mouth and to spit in the face the second before attacking ... maybe you can incorporate that into your lama style. lol ... (humor) ...

you said you only asked questions ... i think you made a few "statements" too ...

best,

b

p.s. your website is pretty good. not trying to make enemies ... just trying to make a point.

[Golden Tiger]

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.


I don't think its the members that have the hang up's, as you can infer by the way they defend the style that they have decided to study. And to be perfectly honest, I can't really understand why everyone else does. Sure, there are former disgruntled students that come on from time to time and throw a shot here and there but the rest of you all, beats me.


As for Max wang, he just seems bitter and unhappy in general. His information is wrong, he is upset because he took some classes from someone and still got beat up and just seems tee'd off at the world.

As for the idea that teaching SD is for the money, thats the funniest thing I have heard thus far. Having been around for many years, I can only count a few that have actually turned a profit. As JP stated, most teach in places where the rent is low or free, charge MUCH less than any other school and do a lot of free demos and such for their communities. They don't teach for the money, they teach because they want to share.

[Green Cloud]

Hey nobody here has taken a vow of poverty, making money is part of life and there is nothing wrong with that.

Martial arts is a valuable service and it comes at a premium like everything else in this world.

[Ralphie]

This is an interesting thread, in that it shows a range of thoughts over time. There is a core group of posters on it, and the occasional newbie. Mostly it is the same thing being discussed/argued, but there are subtle transitions that have taken place. I definitely have had my opinions about SD, but for me it (SD) is more representational about martial arts and how they are taught in general. I think, and have thought for a while, that SD is no better or worse than a good portion of traditional styles being "marketed" today. Here is a list of things about SD that I remember, and how I rate them. Keep in mind that it's been years since I've taken Kung Fu of any kind, and that I've actually trained BJJ/MMA for several years now. Another thing to mention is that I learned SD from one school, and so my views are narrowed by region/instructors:
1) Forms- I like forms in KF for what they are. They can be a very athletic and interesting part of an art. I don't think they relate well to actual fighting, but whatever. I'd rate the forms in SD medium, as I did not see a structure that allowed the performer to prepare for maximum expression. Once you had learned a form, there was little reason to remember it besides testing. I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.
2) Weapons- Prolly the coolest part of SD. Maybe not practical, but fun. People's weapons forms in SD were better than their empty hand forms, too.
4) Conditioning- People were generally in good aerobic shape in my classes. The instructors did a good job emphasizing that. People who were never involved in athletics I would imagine love this about SD.
3) Instruction- The main instructors I had were very nice. Within the structure of SD, I'm sure they were good. The instruction from fellow upper belts in SD was a crap shoot. You could see many bad habits being passed along by people who filled in gaps based on assumptions in their own training. Major bummer that part.
4) Fighting- Some good, but mostly not ideal. You start to spar right away, but the techniques of fighting are generally not solid. Prior to starting SD I had a meager background in boxing and wrestling, and I could pretty easily beat 3rd + degree black belts. There are some tough guys in SD, though. I think that's a plus for that group.
5) Cost- If you just went to class, it's pretty cheap. If you start to add seminars and tests, it can be a little expensive. People like that stuff though, and I'm a capitalist. I have no problem with people making money, as long as it's ethical.
6) Philosophy- Generally a hodge podge of stories. Nothing real coherent or well conceived, except for the standard bow to your sensei crapola. Ultimately, there's a kind of romantic placement of yourself as the new shaolin monk. You know, the selfless warrior. Nothing real dangerous, but a bit goofy and unrealistic. Kind of the westerner's take on eastern philosophy. Which is really just an idealized humanistic view.
7) History- If you examine it without having drunk the coolaid, you would probably conclude it's mainly bs. If you were to present the history as a case in court, a rational thinking jury would find it dubious.
8) General- Mostly, the bs part of SD is harmless. Who cares if the history of GM so and so is a bit of a stretch? Well, to me the problem lies more in the ability of some to feel adding to bs is ok, even if it's a dangerous postion to take. Such as the old example of telling your students "biting" genitals is a good counter method to grappling, or that some type of iron body training will prevent certain types of injury. I also don't like to deal with people that aren't on the level. It's hard to admit fault, or lack of understanding, but it's much more respectful and clean. As I've thought about it, I don't like that about SD at all. I think it's a norm in the traditional MA school of thought/ethics, though. So, once again, SD is no better or worse.

Anyway, that's my non-troll attempt in talking about SD. I'll say hello to GT, cause he'll undoubtedly say hello to me, along with a thinly veiled insult. GT, I hope you didn't feel dumber having read that. God knows you don't need to be dumber (take that not so thinly veiled insult ;)
-Steve

[Judge Pen]

Ultimately, there's a kind of romantic placement of yourself as the new shaolin monk. You know, the selfless warrior. Nothing real dangerous, but a bit goofy and unrealistic. Kind of the westerner's take on eastern philosophy. Which is really just an idealized humanistic view.

Ralphie, I'll say hello also,

I thought this was a bit funny so I included it in the post. No romanticized idea of a monk here. Far from it, I enjoy the vices of thi world a bit too much for that (fortunately I think this was an emphasis of your former school and teachers rather than mine).

Thanks for objective take on a former student's take on SD. The one criticism that is patently unfair, and I think that your post dispelled (at least from your persepctive), is that SD's a cult. Granted there's certainly our share of kung fu weirdos that will latch on to anything and blow it out of proportion, but I think that any TCMA school has that element in it.

You made it to first black before you quit, right? I didn't know that you had stopped training kung fu althogether. Last I heard you were a closed door student of a different kung fu teacher getting excellent instruction. When did that change?

[lxtruong]

I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.


I never really understood open forms competition, myself. If they don't know if you're doing it right or not, what's to keep people from covering their mistakes/making up crap on the spot?

For instance, I was doing a demo a little under a year go. Get up there, and about 5 postures in, start messing up. From that point on, I'm pulling moves out of order, out of my a$$. Finish facing the wrong way. Crowd loved it. All the 2nd degrees and up knew I had screwed up, but that's because they knew the kata.

[Judge Pen]

Crap!!! I can't figure out how to post the videos!!! I have a youtupb account but the fight I was going to post is 443MB and they only allow 100MB. I think I have my Kwan Dao form posted, though. I'll post the link when its done uploading.

Oh, if I sent someone a video with the fight, could they post it somewhere. I hate trying to figure out this computer stuff. It's not my thing.

[Judge Pen]

I never really understood open forms competition, myself. If they don't know if you're doing it right or not, what's to keep people from covering their mistakes/making up crap on the spot?

For instance, I was doing a demo a little under a year go. Get up there, and about 5 postures in, start messing up. From that point on, I'm pulling moves out of order, out of my a$$. Finish facing the wrong way. Crowd loved it. All the 2nd degrees and up knew I had screwed up, but that's because they knew the kata.


But fundamental technique, spirit, power and flow should still be present. Those are the things that are judged at an open tournament--not that you left part of the form out b/c no one would know but you and those of your style.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

[Ralphie]

Hey JP. I think at the time, 3 or so years ago, I realized that the closed door instruction thing was even more dubious. It was more thourough and detailed than SD, but equally open to bs. I prolly hadn't really been studying kf for a few years before that. I trained it occasionally, but really had made the switch to the bjj/mma thing. The clincher was that I sparred my kf instructor after a few months of grappling, and beat him pretty easily. I also just realized that for me, I liked the fighting part of martial arts. I like to watch forms and weapons, but I don't really have an interest beyond that in them. For the sake of argument, I used the closed door training as a comparison to SD. I occasionally got caugt up in the argument itself, and over-emphasized a part of what I had experienced in TCMA for that sake only. Ah, the difference in writing about and acting upon.

I don't think SD is a cult. Misperceptions and falsehoods can live within SD because it is not as transparent as it could or should be. However, there's no one in SD asking you to quit your life and follow Sin The'. There's no one doing unlawful or extremely unethical things that I know of. Instructors don't break people down so they can take all of their belongings, or dominate them mentally and emotionally. So no, it's not a cult at all.

LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

[BentMonk]

JP you looked good sir. Congrats on all the new and happy events in your life as well. You've still gotta come see us Louisville SD guys sometime. KBs will make a man outta ya. :D

[MasterKiller]

Crap!!! I can't figure out how to post the videos!!! I have a youtupb account but the fight I was going to post is 443MB and they only allow 100MB. I think I have my Kwan Dao form posted, though. I'll post the link when its done uploading.

Oh, if I sent someone a video with the fight, could they post it somewhere. I hate trying to figure out this computer stuff. It's not my thing.


Open Windows Movie Maker, import the clip, drag it on the timeline, click "Save to my Comuter", save it Video for Broadband 512Kbps.

Should come in at betwee 5 or 10 MB.

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

well done! thanks for posting it. i really like that form. keep practicing.

[brucereiter]

Hey JP. I think at the time, 3 or so years ago, I realized that the closed door instruction thing was even more dubious. It was more thourough and detailed than SD, but equally open to bs. I prolly hadn't really been studying kf for a few years before that. I trained it occasionally, but really had made the switch to the bjj/mma thing. The clincher was that I sparred my kf instructor after a few months of grappling, and beat him pretty easily. I also just realized that for me, I liked the fighting part of martial arts. I like to watch forms and weapons, but I don't really have an interest beyond that in them. For the sake of argument, I used the closed door training as a comparison to SD. I occasionally got caugt up in the argument itself, and over-emphasized a part of what I had experienced in TCMA for that sake only. Ah, the difference in writing about and acting upon.

I don't think SD is a cult. Misperceptions and falsehoods can live within SD because it is not as transparent as it could or should be. However, there's no one in SD asking you to quit your life and follow Sin The'. There's no one doing unlawful or extremely unethical things that I know of. Instructors don't break people down so they can take all of their belongings, or dominate them mentally and emotionally. So no, it's not a cult at all.

LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

hi ralphie,

you made two very thoughtful posts about your experience i like that for the most part you only really spoke about your first hand experiences.

i would like to address one point (quoted below) you made though ... i think it is the fault of the student almost more than the instructor if they dont "relate" the forms to "fighting" and learn how to apply the pricipals and concepts containd in the forms. if the student does not work and experiment he will not be able to apply the forms.

i too have noticed that many people around me just learn the basic movements of whatever form only to test with it and never really dig into it and therfore can not apply the movements and have no "real" understanding, "inho" thats there problem/fault, if some teachers allow and encourge this that is unfortunate i think i have always been taught and agree it is up to the student the teacher is just a guide.

i think students have diffrent goals as long as they are happy and becoming more healthy all is good even if they can fight there way out of a wet paper bag.

having said that i will agree the way most martial artists train their forms they will never be able to fight with them ...

<<1) Forms- I like forms in KF for what they are. They can be a very athletic and interesting part of an art. I don't think they relate well to actual fighting, but whatever. I'd rate the forms in SD medium, as I did not see a structure that allowed the performer to prepare for maximum expression. Once you had learned a form, there was little reason to remember it besides testing. I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.>>

live and let live and keep training & sweating no matter what art you chose!

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

Hey JP, thanks for posting that...you've joined the elite club of those who will put their **** out there for critique.

A couple of questions and constructive criticisms.....

1) What is the purpose of that portion of the form where it looks like you are tiptoeing?

2) Watch that back foot in the Bow Stance. Don't let your let your back foot tilt onto the side like that, it shows that your weight is too far forward.

3) For a weapon like Guan Do you need to have a deeper stance. Its a heavy weapon so you need to really root strongly to the ground. As my Sifu says "Control the weapon, don't let it control you." Especially difficult with a weapon like Guando.

4) Make sure that you're eyes follow the direction of the weapon till the end of the movement. It looks like in a couple spots you are rushing to the next movement before finishing the last one. You turn your head before you have finished.

Overall, nice job though. Keep the videos coming.

FP

[lxtruong]

But fundamental technique, spirit, power and flow should still be present. Those are the things that are judged at an open tournament--not that you left part of the form out b/c no one would know but you and those of your style.

I agree that sure all those things are important. But I don't think that BSing should be rewarded. To the extent that "correctness" is not checked, you're rewarding people who are able to make mistakes but correct for them in an inobtrusive manner. You're essentially rewarding people for covering up for their own mistakes.

Imagine a figure skating competition where the judges didn't know the routine beforehand. You could turn a triple lutz into a double and no one would know, as long as you landed gracefully. Or the same thing with gymnastics. Or ballroom dancing. Or platform diving. If you look at any "judged" sport, you'll see that they have some requirements for "correctness", as a safeguard. That's why I think that open forms competition aren't all that great.



LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

I gave an example of how I pull absolute bull out of my rear end and the uninitiated loved it. I don't really see how that's all that meaningful. I don't think that I really got all that much out of it, except manage limit the audience where I embarassed myself and my teacher to a small select group instead of a large group.

An analogy of what I did would be for someone assigned with the task of giving a speech in Spanish walking up and speaking in gibberish. Good thing most of the crowd didn't know Spanish!

I think that teaching does much much much (times infinity) more to demand examination in a way that's unfamiliar. I don't know how many times I've been asked a question about XYZ form and it has forced me to give a critical look at my forms. Frequently the answer is "I don't know". I get something out of that too. Plus I get to keep the entry fee for the tournament and I don't have another cheap trophy littering my room.

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP, thanks for posting that...you've joined the elite club of those who will put their **** out there for critique.

A couple of questions and constructive criticisms.....

1) What is the purpose of that portion of the form where it looks like you are tiptoeing?

INTERESTING THAT YOU PICKED UP ON THAT. I DON'T KNOW ANY PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF THAT PART OF THE FORM. STYLISTICALLY ITS AN HOMAGE TO THE KWAN DAO BEING A BATTLEFIELD WEAPON--STEPPING OVER CARNAGE OF BATTLE.

2) Watch that back foot in the Bow Stance. Don't let your let your back foot tilt onto the side like that, it shows that your weight is too far forward.

YEP. GUILTY AS CHARGED. IT'S ONE OF THE CRITICISMS I HAVE OF MYSELF AFTER WATCHING THAT FORM. I THINK ITS A PROBLEM OF ME BEING EXTREMELY UNFLEXIBLE IN MY HIPS. MY BACK FOOT IS COMING UP ON CERTAIN STANCES IF I DON'T WATCH IT.

3) For a weapon like Guan Do you need to have a deeper stance. Its a heavy weapon so you need to really root strongly to the ground. As my Sifu says "Control the weapon, don't let it control you." Especially difficult with a weapon like Guando.

YEP. I WAS A BIT NERVOUS AND RUSHING IN SPOTS. BECAUSE OF THAT, I WAS LAZY AND UNDISCIPLINED IN NOT FORCING MY STANCES LOWER.

4) Make sure that you're eyes follow the direction of the weapon till the end of the movement. It looks like in a couple spots you are rushing to the next movement before finishing the last one. You turn your head before you have finished.

YEP. I SHOULD SLOW DOWN A COUPLE OF MOVEMENTS THERE. I WAS RUSHING. (SEE ABOVE)

Overall, nice job though. Keep the videos coming.

FP

Very observant. Thanks for the criticisms. Like I said, I'm not that good (especially at forms); but I keep coming back to class. All you can do is work to get better. What you say isn't anything I haven't heard form my teachers, but I always appreciate another perspective.

[Radhnoti]

Nice JP. Those spinning moves always seemed to throw me off for the end of that form. Always ended it winded and a bit disoriented. :o
An interesting sidenote, an aikido school in Richmond, KY just started (today) offering a kwando form. Seems the instructor picked it up on a trip to China researching the roots of his art. I'm pretty sure I've seen it somewhere though...
;)

[Ralphie]

Looked pretty good, JP. You should post more of those, that one was fun to watch.

sdic,
I knew someone was going to say that, and I dont' agree with you. It's an inneficient way to learn and teach techniques. The delivery system lacks realistic conditions. Try and pull your most advanced stuff on a serious san shou or mma competitor, then come back and tell me how this or that technique derived from this or that form helped you win. Bring video. To put it succinctly, I don't believe you unless you have proof. It's too convenient to say "it's up to the student", when you yourself have never shown it outside the safety net of your school.

LX,
Who cares what beginners think,? It's what you found out during that experience that matters. If you got up and passed gibberish for Spanish in front of people, and your goal was to speak Spanish fluently, wouldn't that experience tell you what you needed to do in order to reach your goal? If you get in front of someone and blow your form, then work to correct that, you get better. That's why you compete, or a good reason anyway. If you performed that form side by side with other competitors, wouldn't it be obvious that you blew it to the judges? You said yourself the other black belts knew it. Anyway, if you don't care about trophies, there are many other reasons to compete.

[brucereiter]

Looked pretty good, JP. You should post more of those, that one was fun to watch.

sdic,
I knew someone was going to say that, and I dont' agree with you. It's an inneficient way to learn and teach techniques. The delivery system lacks realistic conditions. Try and pull your most advanced stuff on a serious san shou or mma competitor, then come back and tell me how this or that technique derived from this or that form helped you win. Bring video. To put it succinctly, I don't believe you unless you have proof. It's too convenient to say "it's up to the student", when you yourself have never shown it outside the safety net of your school.


hi ralphie,

you do not have to agree with me ... what i said is just my opinion.
you say forms are an inefficiant way to learn and teach techniques, by themselves yes they are. i will agree if you want to be able to fight within a year or so mma type of format might do you better.

i have the good fortune to travel around the world about 7 months per year for my job (for more than 15 years) and have visited many martial artists representing alot styles. i have seen/felt alot of what is out there.

through being polite when meeting teachers at schools around the world i have been able to join classes and or spar/push hands with many people outside of my system and the "safty net" of my school and most of them have respected my understanding/skill. i am one shaolin do student who does not wear blinders there are others too ... i think jp from what i have read of his posts has been out there a bit to see how others do things.

i stand by my statement that it is up to the student to gain skill. in the context of your mma training i would think this is true too. if you do not "make the move your own" it is no good. you do not need to belive me.

"pull my most advanced stuff" i say this tounge in cheek but it is kinda true, my most advanced stuff it no to be in a situation where i have to fight.
having said that though ...
i will respond to what ever the situation asks for. in no way am i saying i cant be beat, i am sure i can be beat as can anybody.

also note i am an "internal arts only" student. we have alot fewer "forms" but each style on its own does take a lifetime to refine but maybe only 3-5 years to "learn".
i am saying i can use taijiquan for example to defend myself against a resisting person, yes the taijiquan i learned in shaolin do. sorry i have no video for your proof but it does not matter what you think of my training and skills it only matters what i think.

(i think jp said that your sd rank was black belt) in the context of shaolin do that is a beginner. i do not think you put in very much effort into what you were taught in sd and that is why you got no results.

in your mma training i would think the guys that have been there for 8-10 years and work really hard i would think can pull things off that you maybe never thought of or cant do. why? because they have experimented and practiced and expanded on what their teachers have shared with them (inho). but then i bet there are some who have been there just as long who get "owned" by a guy with 2-3 years under their belt.
what does that say about mma? my answer is nothing it only speaks about some students.

if you are every in atlanta feel free to drop by the school. you will see a wide range of skill and understanding. some people will make you say wow thats cool and others you might say ummm??? what is he doing? but all of them are bettering themselves, and having a good time becoming more healthy.

in my experience mma/bjj type fighters are very skilled and good fighters the several i have had the chance to "roll" with were very talented.

on that note i would advise all students to go outside of their "safety net" and find out how others do things. for me doing that reasured me i made the right decision to study shaolin do.

live and let live!

[Green Cloud]

hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers:)

[Judge Pen]

hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers:)

Don't. That wasn't the point of me posting. I never said I was a forms person. I enjoy them, but I'm not good at them so any criticism of my peformance will be well received as its probably honest and good advice.

As for the form itself, I expect some to pick at it because its an SD form. So, since I have the expectation that people will hate it, then people only live up to my expectations or they exceed it. No worries there.

I'll still get the sparring match up where I fought well, made a couple of bad mistakes, and lost. It should so, though, that whatever SD teaches, it does teach you to handle yourslef as well as any TMA.

[Golden Tiger]

I'll say hello to GT, cause he'll undoubtedly say hello to me, along with a thinly veiled insult. GT, I hope you didn't feel dumber having read that. God knows you don't need to be dumber (take that not so thinly veiled insult

Hey there Ralphie!! Long time no see bud. And the only reason that I toss out the in****s "thinly veiled"...is so you can get them. Otherwise, they would fly right over your head my friend.:cool:



hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers

Not to use JP as a target (and by the way JP, very good job!) but I am interested in hearing your critique of the form as well. Perhaps that will shed some light on where some of your other comments come from.

[Judge Pen]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well. As for being a target, well, we knew that would happen as soon as I posted. In fact, I welcome it as I'm tired of people saying that we have something to hide. I don't; even though I'm certainly not even close to a good forms person in our style. I'm more of an example of the average guy with some athletic limitations that learns our style.

My personal opinion is that this form is sign better than some and worse than others of the infamous Atlanta forms.

[lxtruong]

Who cares what beginners think,? It's what you found out during that experience that matters. If you got up and passed gibberish for Spanish in front of people, and your goal was to speak Spanish fluently, wouldn't that experience tell you what you needed to do in order to reach your goal? If you get in front of someone and blow your form, then work to correct that, you get better. That's why you compete, or a good reason anyway. If you performed that form side by side with other competitors, wouldn't it be obvious that you blew it to the judges? You said yourself the other black belts knew it. Anyway, if you don't care about trophies, there are many other reasons to compete.

All these things are perhaps true. Of course I needed more practice, I decided on the form 45 seconds before walking on the floor. But I think that your arguement for attending open competitions is still weak. In my mind there are several reasons to compete in a tournament (forms):

1. To test your form performing skills against others.
2. As a "goal" so that you have a hard date to practice against.
3. To test your skill in performing in front of others.
4. For fun.
5. To impress hot chicks (just kidding, girls aren't impressed by forms).

In my mind, open forms compeition are inferior in #1, and reinforce bad habits in #3. Obviously, no matter how much you say 'doesn't matter how I place', your ranking in a competition still matters. It's an "objective" judge of how well you did. By entering a competition, you're implicitly recognizing that. So, I don't think that open forms competition are good for #1 because it gives an incomplete judgement of your forms skill. I don't think that anyone here would argue that it doesn't really matter if you ever do a form correctly; that it only matters that you do it with spirit and power. In that case why bother doing a form at all. Just stand there in a bow stance and do a bunch of punches and kicks and yell. Also, I think that even if you disregard the judging and say "Ok, who cares about them, *I'm* going to compare myself against my competition"...YOU don't know if they're doing it correctly or not. So all YOU can compare against is spirit and power and how well they yell and act.

Open forms competition fail in #3, again because they have no way of reinforcing correctness. If a competitor A gets up in front of the judges with no one else from his style there and totally blows his/her kata, there is no mechanism to punish them for that. Sure, you can argue that the competitor knows that he messed up, but what's to prevent him from just saying "Well, I totally screwed that up, but I won 3rd place anyway, oh well who cares". I think that devalues the competition, and actually devalues forms practice: after all who cares about correctness?

Open compeition are in my mind, perfectly a-ok for #2, #4 and #5 (ha!). But then again so are closed competitions, and I feel that they're superior for #1 and #3. Now, I'm not above doing something for fun, don't get me wrong. I'd probably do open competitions: IF THEY WEREN'T EXPENSIVE (oh yeah, and I weren't barred from some CMA tournaments because we wear karate gis). Proper prep. for a tournament requires a lot of work, and it's one thing to do it 'just for fun' knowing that the judging system is flawed if it's free or cheap. It's another thing to put in a lot of work, pay a lot of money, and then realize that the judging is flawed.

P.S. none of this applies to sparring. Obviously the rules of sparring are published well beforehand, and if you're not comfortable punching and kicking that's your problem. Everyone plays by the same rules there, so it truly is objective (within the limits of the quality of the judges).

[lxtruong]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well. As for being a target, well, we knew that would happen as soon as I posted. In fact, I welcome it as I'm tired of people saying that we have something to hide. I don't; even though I'm certainly not even close to a good forms person in our style. I'm more of an example of the average guy with some athletic limitations that learns our style.

My personal opinion is that this form is sign better than some and worse than others of the infamous Atlanta forms.

I think that the form was pretty good. I'd put it at above average, although the form actually is limited in respect in how it is set up to show off physical ability/formsmanship (Is that a real word?). In any case, the first thing I noticed was that you really like to high step when you do the steps which looked a bit funny to me but that's just a matter of style. The second thing I noticed was that the kwan dao looked flimsy. I personally think that the weight of the KD really factors into that form. If I'm judging that form and you're using a 13+ lb kwan dao you're forgiven for some bad stances. If you're using a 4lber, you dont' really have very much excuse for not hitting every bow stance.

[Judge Pen]

I think that the form was pretty good. I'd put it at above average, although the form actually is limited in respect in how it is set up to show off physical ability/formsmanship (Is that a real word?). In any case, the first thing I noticed was that you really like to high step when you do the steps which looked a bit funny to me but that's just a matter of style. The second thing I noticed was that the kwan dao looked flimsy. I personally think that the weight of the KD really factors into that form. If I'm judging that form and you're using a 13+ lb kwan dao you're forgiven for some bad stances. If you're using a 4lber, you dont' really have very much excuse for not hitting every bow stance.

It was lighter, but not flimsy. It has a live blade on it. I've used it to chop wood before (It was made by cold steel). It's only about 5lbs though.

And I was taught to step that way from my first teacher a long time ago. It stuck.

[Golden Tiger]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well.

Content wise, dead on. Looks pretty close to the way I learned it when it was first taught. Also, I watched it at about 4 am and can't pull it up at the moment but first impressions:

To be using a lighter version of the weapon, I would have thought you could have done the spins a little faster. If you had zipped it around at the opening, I think it would have looked a tad more impressive.

The stances were a tad high (especially from a M. Mullins student) and could have landed a bit more solid. As bad as it hurts to agree with Fu. it is a strong weapon and the user needs to be as rooted as possible.

Other than that, it looked fine. And I would hope that everyone will take into consideration that it was done during a competition. I have seen many kick butt in practice but as soon as they took the floor in a comp, the nerves and such caused minor mistakes such as high stances.

As for the walk back/tip toeing/what ever...I have seen that done many many ways, depending on what M. Sin had on his mind the day he taught it. The current version is at each step, you look side to side, and if creeping along looking for an attack. Who knows the real application....

[hungsingclf]

jp,

much respect for putting up vid of yourself. and you didn't blow your knee out this time:eek:

[Judge Pen]

To be using a lighter version of the weapon, I would have thought you could have done the spins a little faster. If you had zipped it around at the opening, I think it would have looked a tad more impressive.

The stances were a tad high (especially from a M. Mullins student) and could have landed a bit more solid. As bad as it hurts to agree with Fu. it is a strong weapon and the user needs to be as rooted as possible.


Eh, I'm old and slow. That's about top speed for the spin. :p

To my teacher's defense, I didn't become a Mullins student until after I had been a black sash for about 8 years. My stances are still high for their classes, but I fight well and give free legal advice from time to time, so they claim me.

[Judge Pen]

jp,

much respect for putting up vid of yourself. and you didn't blow your knee out this time:eek:

Amen to that! For those that didn't know, I blew my knee out doing the form in a demo on grass. The first jump and BAM. No more ACL.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow.

Hey, would you say that is more influenced by your first teacher or your current teacher?

[brothernumber9]

It's hard for me to tell from the video, but that "kwan" dao, looks more like a Ja Ma Dao (horse cutter) to me.

[Judge Pen]

Wow.

Hey, would you say that is more influenced by your first teacher or your current teacher?

Wow what? Go ahead and say whatever's on your mind. That's why I posted it.

As for your question, I learned the form from my first teacher and I still do it the same way he taught it. There's a few stylistic differences and a lot of athletic differences, but it is, form wise, the essentially the same.

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

The specs are found here: http://www.bladetown.com/Cold-Steel-Chinese-Halberd-p-1804.html

[MasterKiller]

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

Kwan Daos usually have a dorsal fin hook on the top of the blade as well.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow what? Go ahead and say whatever's on your mind. That's why I posted it.

As for your question, I learned the form from my first teacher and I still do it the same way he taught it. There's a few stylistic differences and a lot of athletic differences, but it is, form wise, the essentially the same.

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

The specs are found here: http://www.bladetown.com/Cold-Steel-Chinese-Halberd-p-1804.html
Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

[Judge Pen]

Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

Well they should be essentially the same no matter who the teacher is, but individual prefernces (and weaknesses) do start to creep in.

[lxtruong]

Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

I dunno....I saw a guy from one of the Idaho school do a 2nd degree brown bird form and I could barely tell that it was the same as ours. It was quite different. I think some forms are different, some not so much.

[godzillakungfu]

I dunno....I saw a guy from one of the Idaho school do a 2nd degree brown bird form and I could barely tell that it was the same as ours. It was quite different. I think some forms are different, some not so much.Nope it is differences in teaching styles. The forms aren't different just portrayed with different focus.

How long you have studied plays a huge role in how the form looks. I agree with what JP said.


JP: The reason I brought it up is the stories I've heard of large differences (who does what wrong blah blah blah) it is shocking to see large similarities.

[ninthdrunk]

I have to agree with lx here. There have been many times when people from out of state have come to visit, and there are some huge differences across camps. The stereotype has held true everytime I've been privy to demonstrations from other folks' schools. Typically, Texas and Kentucky are pretty close, Tennessee is a little different from that, and the few times I've seen stuff from "out west" it's been quite a bit different. I understand that it is arguably "stylistic differences," but after a point, those differences change the form. You throw a kick into se meng tao lian for stylistic differences, and I'm gonna argue it's not quite the same form anymore.

EDIT:
I will add however, that this stereotype is just that, and there are certainly times when they don't hold. In addition, there are times when I go back to texas and see people doing a form and I am just blown away by how much, uh, creative licenses have been taken. I've even had folks who don't know I've been around there a lot longer than they have ask me if I learned my material form another master! So, stereotypes are what they are because they hold true, MOST of the time. If they weren't stereotypes, we'd just call them truths.

[Judge Pen]

Nope it is differences in teaching styles. The forms aren't different just portrayed with different focus.

How long you have studied plays a huge role in how the form looks. I agree with what JP said.


JP: The reason I brought it up is the stories I've heard of large differences (who does what wrong blah blah blah) it is shocking to see large similarities.

I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.

[godzillakungfu]

I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.
Well they are much more stringent on the West. Not a dig at you more of a "rule with an iron hand" type of thing.

I know there are variations but to say a different form is wrong.

With in the West. Let me make that clear. I agree with what you are saying guys. Many of the differences are minor it is just strange when you are newer.

[godzillakungfu]

I have to agree with lx here. There have been many times when people from out of state have come to visit, and there are some huge differences across camps. The stereotype has held true everytime I've been privy to demonstrations from other folks' schools. Typically, Texas and Kentucky are pretty close, Tennessee is a little different from that, and the few times I've seen stuff from "out west" it's been quite a bit different. I understand that it is arguably "stylistic differences," but after a point, those differences change the form. You throw a kick into se meng tao lian for stylistic differences, and I'm gonna argue it's not quite the same form anymore..Ha HA. You've seen that too I see.

[Green Cloud]

Don't. That wasn't the point of me posting. I never said I was a forms person. I enjoy them, but I'm not good at them so any criticism of my peformance will be well received as its probably honest and good advice.

As for the form itself, I expect some to pick at it because its an SD form. So, since I have the expectation that people will hate it, then people only live up to my expectations or they exceed it. No worries there.

I'll still get the sparring match up where I fought well, made a couple of bad mistakes, and lost. It should so, though, that whatever SD teaches, it does teach you to handle yourslef as well as any TMA.


hello jp hope all is well, first off let me start by saying that I liked the form it does seem to be traditional. The weapon that you are using is called the Da do or dan Dao simply means long handle broad sword. That's just being knit picky many people genericaly call it the kwan dao.

Some of the transitions are a bit off and when turning into the gung bo you should always keep the foot flat to the floor and the heel too. You will loose points but are in a risky position to blow your knee out.

I didn't like in when the weapon was held at the end and swung around. This move is risky for 2 reasons, 1. it's a good way to loose it 2. Not a traditional move. I would just delete that from the form.

The transition behind the back was off and should be done differently, remeber it's a heavy weapon so you want to use centrifugal force and let the weapon do the work.

Other than that if the form was cleaned up a bit you got your self a pretty good form. The monk walking was interesting.:)

JP was that you or one of your students or was that youperforming the set I wasn't sure. Looking foward to seeing the fight vid thanks.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

hello jp hope all is well, first off let me start by saying that I liked the form it does seem to be traditional. The weapon that you are using is called the Da do or dan Dao simply means long handle broad sword. That's just being knit picky many people genericaly call it the kwan dao.

Some of the transitions are a bit off and when turning into the gung bo you should always keep the foot flat to the floor and the heel to. You will not on loose points but are in a riskyposition to blow your knee out.

I didn't like in when the weapon was held at the end and swung around. This move is risky for 2 reasons, 1. it's a good way to loose it 2. Not a traditional move. I would just delete that from the form.

The transition behind the back was off and should be done differently, remeber it's a heavy weapon so you want to use centrifugal force and let the weapon do the work.

Other than that if the form was cleaned up a bit you got your self a pretty good form. The monk walking was interesting.:)

JP was that you or one of your students performing the set. Looking foward to seeing the fight vid thanks.

greencloud.net

I don't teach my own students. I fill in for another teacher on Saturdays, but they're not my students. So, that was me. (I told you I'm not that great of a forms person).

We have talked about my stance issues. I'm really having so hip flexibility issues and it affects many of my stances (including the horse and bow stances). That's a limitation I'm working on (I stretch often, but I'm not gaining any ground). That criticism is well-deserved. I have great hamstring flexibility but sub-par hip flexibility. Even when I was 14 or 15 and stretching often, but hip flexibity was bad. Now that I'm in my 30s, I'm just hoping that it doesn't get worse.

The swinging move is in the form as it was taught to me. It's a good move to clear space. I've seen it done different ways. I embelished a bit on it in this tournament (got carried away and swung it twice around instead of once). But I can't just delete it from the form as its part of what was taught. To do so would to be doing my own stuff and not an SD form.

The behind the back transition is one I've learned a couple of different ways in my time. The best I've seen it was tossed from behind the back and then caught. I've also seen it spun around the same shoulder as the hand that catches it. Believe it or not, it does work well with the momentum the way I did it at the tournament. It rolls right along the back and allows for a quick transition into the hand. I actually bobbled it a bit.

I can make this form cleaner. I've done it better before, but that's the way I did it that day.

What's your take on the monk walk (as you put it)? I know of no real reaons for it other than stylistic.

[Green Cloud]

I'm not realy shure what the monk walking is about, I have seen it done with the monk spade. I think it's just a signiture Shaolin thing. I think it's done as a light stepping thing kinda looks like a master killer thing.

I didn't mean anything with the student comment, I just wasn't sure if it was you.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not realy shure what the monk walking is about, I have seen it done with the monk spade. I think it's just a signiture Shaolin thing. I think it's done as a light stepping thing kinda looks like a master killer thing.

I didn't mean anything with the student comment, I just wasn't sure if it was you.

:) No offense taken. I will always be a student. I have no desire or time to teach a class of my own. The only things that bug me are comparing SD to a cult and stupid crap like that.

Good to know about the walking...I never knew why it was there. I was told it was simulating stepping over objects on the battlefied. It was one of those moves that you did "just cause." At least that's what I was told years ago when I first learned this form. I never asked the question again, but you've inspired me.

[Green Cloud]

hey JP I was just asking cause you look a lot younger in your video than you do in your picture. I think that when you are doing your gung bo if you modify the movement then you won't have to wory about your hip.

Simply keep your entire foot flat and rooted into the floor, you can do this by shortening the stance a bit and just bend your back leg a bit. In CLF we call it a broken bow. This will keep you rooted while taking away the stress from the ankle and the hip while mantaining proper posturing.

Just a sugestion, I've judged many KF tornaments and that's one of the things they look for. They don't care if the back leg is bent as long as the stance is strong.

Also as far as deleting movements out of forms, that's okay to do if youre simply doing it for tournaments. Many KF schools leave out material in their forms on porpous, so others can't steal their good stuff.


greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

hey JP I was just asking cause you look a lot younger in your video than you do in your picture. I think that when you are doing your gung bo if you modify the movement then you won't have to wory about your hip.

Simply keep your entire foot flat and rooted into the floor, you can do this by shortening the stance a bit and just bend your back leg a bit. In CLF we call it a broken bow. This will keep you rooted while taking away the stress from the ankle and the hip while mantaining proper posturing.

Just a sugestion, I've judged many KF tornaments and that's one of the things they look for. They don't care if the back leg is bent as long as the stance is strong.

Also as far as deleting movements out of forms, that's okay to do if youre simply doing it for tournaments. Many KF schools leave out material in their forms on porpous, so others can't steal their good stuff.


greencloud.net

Thanks. It's difficult to strike that balance between the stance the way its supposed to be and how you can physically do it, but what you say is wise.

It's funny after hearing all the criticism of SD to be concerned about someone stealing forms. But I wanted to do a form that was 100% original to SD so people could get a feel for what a typical SD form is like. So that's why I did that particular form. It's a form that every SD student must learn before the level of black.

Oh, the picture is actually George Clooney from "O Brother Where Art Thou?" But that's ok, a lot of people get us confused. :)

[Golden Tiger]

Kwan Daos usually have a dorsal fin hook on the top of the blade as well.

The form is designed to be used with a Kwan Dao. Some of the moves, especially in the spins, are both cuts (blade) and rips (hooked side). But as JP stated, most use what type they like best. The first ones we had were made by a local guy in a metal shop and weighed about 10 lbs. Good training aide but not very for demos. And if memory serves me correctly, M. Sin used a 9 ring long knife when he taught the form. So to each their own.



I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.


Had a huge comment to post on this but never mind. I think it has been covered.

[Judge Pen]

I also have a home-made kwan dao that is made of street-sign aluminum of all things. It's bigger but lighter than my functional halberd. I just like the feel and thought of a "live" and functional weapon. They are hard to find in the CMA. That's why I'm making my own spear.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41494

[ninthdrunk]

Master schaefer had some guy in Wimberley make a couple of kwan taos way back when. I was "lucky" enough to get the second one. **** thing weighs like 27 pounds or something...not exactly sure, never weighed it. Kinda don't want to, cause then I might just get slower! Whatever it weighs, it's a beast. But, Master Schaefer's always had it in his head that I'd like heavier weapons....not willing to dissapoint him :p

[brothernumber9]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..

[godzillakungfu]

Master schaefer had some guy in Wimberley make a couple of kwan taos way back when. I was "lucky" enough to get the second one. **** thing weighs like 27 pounds or something...not exactly sure, never weighed it. Kinda don't want to, cause then I might just get slower! Whatever it weighs, it's a beast. But, Master Schaefer's always had it in his head that I'd like heavier weapons....not willing to dissapoint him :p
We had some 20lbs Daos that we purchased years ago. Heavy as hell sucked during tests.

[Crushing Fist]

We use Kwan Daos down here in Atlanta, although one year the supplier ran out and a few people got stuck using Pu Daos (poor B@stards) and I've seen someone use the 9 ring knife too. I've also see something called a "southern kwan dao" which is kind of like a smaller version of the normal one.

I think certain moves in this form are meant for the kwan dao specifically, but it translates pretty well into any halberd type weapon.

It is such a different form with a combat steel Kwan Dao too. A few guys here got those, and I don't know how much they weigh, but they definitely spin differently.


As for the big swing, why do you say its not traditional? It may not be, I don't know...
but it is central to this form IMO.

For one thing its the only move that I was told a fancy name for

"The Cut of 1000 Heads"

with a name like that I'm not about to drop it.

Plus its one of the only times in the form that the weapon changes range and I've always thought it would be a particularly gruesome move.

Has anyone heard the story about General Kwan holding a bridge by himself as wave after wave of infantry charged him only to be cut down?

Don't know if its historical, but I imagine him doing some kind of swing like this to hold them back and kill/maim several people at once.

my favorite move in the form is the triple jump/spin followed by the reverse jump/spin. just because its fun. its one move that the heavier the kwan dao is the better it works... the thing just pulls you around with it.

the around the back move I like too. First because its the other range change and second because its another good decapitation :D

I do the catch so that the blade comes up past my right shoulder and I kind of side-hand strike it up at the gripping point and grab on. When I do it right the weapon doesn't stop moving and it flows nicely.


I like to picture the cross cut/side-hand sequences in this form as cutting some in half horizontally then again vertically then knocking the pieces apart before they fall :D


realistic? no but its a fun picture.

I've never heard the term "monk walking" before but I like it.

I think of stepping over the piles of bodies and severed limbs that were just created



you could also be sneaking up on someone...

Be vewy vewy qwiet... I'm hunting wabbits



with a kwan dao

[BM2]

Jp
I gave away your copy that I made of the DVD:rolleyes: When time permits I'll make another and mail it to you.
Was looking on my pc for a better pic but couldn't find it. The only weapons that are not real are the hook swords, the others are antiques. This pic is about 5 years ago and I have some better weapons now. Look at the size difference of the Kwan daos, cresent moon knife, green dragon spring knife or the other different names for the same weapon. The top version is about 7lbs.

[Judge Pen]

Nice. Where did you get the hooks, btw. They look like mine.

I like the old spearheads too. Good stuff.

I know what the legends say about the wieght of General Kwan's Dao, but reall, how realistic is it to have a weapon that heavy? It seems that even for a heavy halberd the 7 to 8 lbs is pushing it as far as maximum effective weight.

[Green Cloud]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..


Ja ma ao is the horse leg cuuter much shorter with a ring at the end of the handle