Four Thai kicking questions

[IronFist]

1. What happens if you do a round kick to someone and they block with their shin and the top of your foot hits their shin? Would it be likely to break? I bet it would hurt like hell.

2. I have pretty low bodyfat and on one of my shins there's vein that sticks out (like how some people have in their forearms or whatever). You don't think that's a potential problem, do you? I can't really do anything about it

3. How do you guys condition the upper part of your shin? When I kick the bag it's always the lower 1/3 or 1/2 of my shin hitting the bag. I can't kick with the upper part. But when I block I always seem to block with the top part.

4. If you're doing a shin block and their kick hits your knee, will that injure you? Someone said if someone blocks with their knee it really hurts, but I feel like it would hurt the blocker more than the kicker. What do you think? What if their shin hits that soft spot under your knee cap where the doctor hits to test your reflexes? Ow!

Thanks.

[Meat Shake]

1.Yes, the metatarsals in the foot are broken fairly easily... Especially against a shin. Shins are hard.

2. Shouldnt be. Just condition.

3. Dont kick with the top part of your shin, puts too much stress on the knee. Makes a funny lever against the bag. Use a pvc pipe filled with sand and just roll it down your shins from just below the knee to just above the ankle. Turn your feet outwards and roll it down the instep. It will hurt like hell and pull off your hair for the first little while, but it works great.

4. Dont worry too much about what if's. ;)

[Suntzu]

4. Dont worry too much about what if's. basically........

[Meat Shake]

Just thought about it a little... Blocking with your knee shouldnt be a problem so long as your leg is bent. It may buckle backwards if it was straight... But then I guess youd be getting kicked in the knee, not blocking a kick...
:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
1. What happens if you do a round kick to someone and they block with their shin and the top of your foot hits their shin? Would it be likely to break? I bet it would hurt like hell.

there's definitely a chance that you can break it. I have busted blood vessels in my foot from that.

2. I have pretty low bodyfat and on one of my shins there's vein that sticks out (like how some people have in their forearms or whatever). You don't think that's a potential problem, do you? I can't really do anything about it

I wouldn't think it would pose a problem.

3. How do you guys condition the upper part of your shin? When I kick the bag it's always the lower 1/3 or 1/2 of my shin hitting the bag. I can't kick with the upper part. But when I block I always seem to block with the top part.

How high are you raising your leg? block with the same area you kick with, maybe a tad higher. When you block, make sure you turn your shin outward 45 degrees or so, that way you are taking the strike on the bone and not on soft tissue.

4. If you're doing a shin block and their kick hits your knee, will that injure you?

shouldn't. their shin will likely hurt more than your knee.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
How high are you raising your leg? block with the same area you kick with, maybe a tad higher. When you block, make sure you turn your shin outward 45 degrees or so, that way you are taking the strike on the bone and not on soft tissue.

I'm raising my leg as high as I have to. But sometimes you misjudge or don't get your leg high enough in time.

So you should turn your leg outward and block with the bone? I assume it would be safer to block with the soft tissue, or at least it would hurt less.

Hey, has anyone ever blocked with their shin and had their opponents foot like reach around and hit them in the nuts from behind?

[SevenStar]

lol, dude stop being a wuss...

raise your leg the same height every time. your elbow should be able to touch your knee. What if you think he is kicking low, and you keep your shin low for a low leg check, but it turns out to be a mid level kick? SNAP!! broken rib.


you're not tryng to teach yourself muay thai, are you?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
lol, dude stop being a wuss...

raise your leg the same height every time. your elbow should be able to touch your knee. What if you think he is kicking low, and you keep your shin low for a low leg check, but it turns out to be a mid level kick? SNAP!! broken rib.

What if his kick hits your foot then? I keep my toes pointed when I kick and block. I'm just wondering about little details now.



you're not tryng to teach yourself muay thai, are you?

No. I learned the basics of stand up fighting at my old NHB school. It was pretty much like Muay Thai except instead of keeping our hands up where thai boxers do we used palms on the forehead crazy monkey boxing (think like Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style).

Unfortunately, now I had to move to start my job and there's no NHB, Muay Thai or BJJ schools around here, so it's me and my punching bag in my apartment and a few friends who I have to train with. But what are you going to do?

I ask all these questions because I'm very curious by nature and I wouldn't want some little stupid thing to impede my progress in training or in combat. I can't just do blindly. It's not my personality. When I'm curious about something I ask questions and study it down to the smallest detail possible (or that time allows).

But seriously tho, I was never told to turn my shin out when blocking. I mean I know to block with my shin, but they never specified an angle or anything. Interesting.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

1. What happens if you do a round kick to someone and they block with their shin and the top of your foot hits their shin? Would it be likely to break? I bet it would hurt like hell.

Its definately possible, but in my experience, you are more likely to hyperextend (sprain) your ankle. As a matter of fact, I *really* speak from experience because I have done this COUNTLESS times over the last 12 years. I've never broken a foot bone, but I've hyperextended my ankles so much that they are not weakened.

2. I have pretty low bodyfat and on one of my shins there's vein that sticks out (like how some people have in their forearms or whatever). You don't think that's a potential problem, do you? I can't really do anything about it

Its not very likely to cause a problem. Your body will adjust.

3. How do you guys condition the upper part of your shin? When I kick the bag it's always the lower 1/3 or 1/2 of my shin hitting the bag. I can't kick with the upper part. But when I block I always seem to block with the top part.

Put on the shin pads and trade kicks with a partner, blocking with the upper part of your shin.

4. If you're doing a shin block and their kick hits your knee, will that injure you? Someone said if someone blocks with their knee it really hurts, but I feel like it would hurt the blocker more than the kicker. What do you think? What if their shin hits that soft spot under your knee cap where the doctor hits to test your reflexes? Ow!

Knees beat shins. EVERY TIME!

[Ming Yue]

2. It might break and be a big ugly hematoma. Bad shin bruises wind up making the bottoms of your feet dark from gravity draining the blood. cool.

3. what meatshake said. Try a galvanized plumbing pipe.

4. You can learn to really tense that huge tendon under your kneecap when you're using your shins to block. it will hurt him more than you regardless.

[Toby]

You MT guys spin me out. We do a fair bit of leg work in my WC class. I blocked a low roundhouse with the upper part of my shin a few months back right on the bone (like 7* mentioned) and hurt the bone pretty badly. Now, 4 mths or so later, I still have a little bump there that won't go away. It doesn't hurt anymore though. I thought it might be a small fracture or something.

Before and after that I always tried to block with the muscly part on the outside anterior of the lower leg (right next to the shinbone). It kind of helps if you lift your toes because it flexes this muscle - kind of like the same exercise you do to prevent/soothe shin splints. And now 7* says I should've been using the bone all along.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
You MT guys spin me out. We do a fair bit of leg work in my WC class. I blocked a low roundhouse with the upper part of my shin a few months back right on the bone (like 7* mentioned) and hurt the bone pretty badly. Now, 4 mths or so later, I still have a little bump there that won't go away. It doesn't hurt anymore though. I thought it might be a small fracture or something.

Me too.


Before and after that I always tried to block with the muscly part on the outside anterior of the lower leg (right next to the shinbone). It kind of helps if you lift your toes because it flexes this muscle - kind of like the same exercise you do to prevent/soothe shin splints. And now 7* says I should've been using the bone all along.

Yeah dude. I'm afraid of flexing the foot like that, tho, because if the kick hits your toes and they're pulled up you're going to have broken toes.

I always keep my toes pointed when blocking or kicking. I've seen pictures of Thais kicking and their foot is flexed back. It'd be so afraid of jamming a toe or something like that.

So has anyone other than SevenStar been taught to turn the shin out when blocking?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Khun Kao Charuad
Knees beat shins. EVERY TIME!

Even if the shin hits that soft place where the doctor tests for reflexes? Owwww!

Anyways I'll feel safer blocking now. Thanks.

[IronFist]

Oh, say someone does Muay Thai for like 20 years and their shins get really conditioned, etc. If they stop training will the sensitivity ever come back? How long does it take?

And does it really "kill the nerves" like people say? I know that for something like Iron Forearm training in kung fu even once you get to the point where you can block a hard strike with your inner forearms, you should still be able to feel a soft touch in that area. For you guys with really conditioned shins, have you lost all feeling there, or does it just not hurt when you strike?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
What if his kick hits your foot then? I keep my toes pointed when I kick and block. I'm just wondering about little details now.

keep your foot pointed while striking. Keep it flexed while blocking.



No. I learned the basics of stand up fighting at my old NHB school. It was pretty much like Muay Thai except instead of keeping our hands up where thai boxers do we used palms on the forehead crazy monkey boxing (think like Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style).

Unfortunately, now I had to move to start my job and there's no NHB, Muay Thai or BJJ schools around here, so it's me and my punching bag in my apartment and a few friends who I have to train with. But what are you going to do?

at least save some money and either 1. visit some schools or 2. attend seminars. That way you will at least be able to receive SOME sort of instruction. you can get corrections, then work what you learned at home.

I ask all these questions because I'm very curious by nature and I wouldn't want some little stupid thing to impede my progress in training or in combat. I can't just do blindly. It's not my personality. When I'm curious about something I ask questions and study it down to the smallest detail possible (or that time allows).

understandable and commendable.

But seriously tho, I was never told to turn my shin out when blocking. I mean I know to block with my shin, but they never specified an angle or anything. Interesting.

that's odd... my first teacher told us to do it, as does my current coach. Consequently, when I am teaching, I teach it also. manu ntoh gave a seminar at our school this weekend, and he said to do it also.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist

So has anyone other than SevenStar been taught to turn the shin out when blocking?

this is from khun khao's site:

The proper way to block a low roundhouse kick is to raise you leg and block with the knee/shin


I wouldn't block with the side of my knee, and by shin, I'm thinking shin bone, So I think he's saying turn your shin outward.

I got this off of another forum:

"we shin block, I say we as in our style of Thaiboxing, we stand with our supporting leg firmly on the ground, foot flat, raise the knee up to meet the elbow of your arm, have the knee so it rests on the inside of your elbow so you elbow is hanging on the outside. Bring your knee up to meet your arm not your body down, dont turn your knee completely out but have it sitting at a 45 degree angle, curl your foot up of the blocking leg so the muscle on the shin is tightened, this will help for max protection. Lean back on your supporting leg so your balance is perfectly centred."

it came from:
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001439.html

Here's another:

http://pub13.ezboard.com/fsfuksubmissionfightingukfrm3.showMessage?topicID= 14.topic

[SevenStar]

aight, I just pulled out my copy of "Muay thai kickboxing - the ultimate guide to conditioning, training and fighting" by chad boykin. It says

"check the kick high on the shinbone at 45 degrees to stop it's path.

It also says:

"Also, try to block with your knee, as this will hurt your opponent significantly more than it will hurt you.


Let's think ahead for a second though... from a counterfighting perspective, if the shin is turned outward, your foot will already be turned whin you put it down... he kicks, you block and step at an angle - the same direction your shin is already pointing - just as you would for a normal rear leg roundhouse. It sets up the angle you take automatically. Also, the front of the knee and shin will do more damage to him than the side.

theoretically, what if he kicked HARD and hit the side of your leg...could it be powerful enough to make you turn - it's knocking you to the side - exposing the back of your legs, kidneys, etc for attack. If he hits you from the front, he would only knock you backward, if he moved you at all.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Let's think ahead for a second though... from a counterfighting perspective, if the shin is turned outward, your foot will already be turned whin you put it down... he kicks, you block and step at an angle - the same direction your shin is already pointing - just as you would for a normal rear leg roundhouse. It sets up the angle you take automatically. Also, the front of the knee and shin will do more damage to him than the side.

theoretically, what if he kicked HARD and hit the side of your leg...could it be powerful enough to make you turn - it's knocking you to the side - exposing the back of your legs, kidneys, etc for attack. If he hits you from the front, he would only knock you backward, if he moved you at all.

Makes sense to me.

Thanks.

[Ming Yue]

I wasn't suggesting he kick a tree or beat his shins with the pipe.
roll it over the fronts of the lower shins.

[ShaolinTiger00]

roll it over the fronts of the lower shins.

or you could just keep kicking the heavy bag like the rest of the smart people.. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ming Yue
3. what meatshake said. Try a galvanized plumbing pipe.
.



Originally posted by Blooming Lotus

I was thinking the same thing, but then you have the arguement about it causing bruised and blackened / dead bones etc.didn't particularly feel like hearing the trolls this 'll no doubt result in, but what's worse, the prospect of not being conditioned, or the repercussion from doing it??? :confused:

I deleted this post by mistake. Anyway, beating the shins is BAD. please do not chime in when you have no clue what you are talking about. It's hilarious that you think WE are trolls...

[Meat Shake]

When you roll the pipe down your shins it doesnt kill the nerves.
... That I know of...
It hurts like hell, strengthens the bone. Works really well. I have been doing it for about 2 years and I can bang shins without it hurting or feel the slightest touch. I also work my thai kicks on the bag, but theres sandbags in the side and they hurt like hell...

[yenhoi]

If you dont turn out the shin then you are just getting kicked on the blocking area rather then blocking the kick. Deflecting is even better. If your structure is really good, you can bounce people off your shield when you block their kick. Then you get a free hit or two from his flank.

As far as getting kicked in the toes, its better then the knee or ribs or face. Practice more. ;)

:eek:

[yenhoi]

I basically only kick the bag and other people but a year or two ago I was conditioning with pipes etc.

Massaging bruises and other injurys, not only on the legs/shin from kicking, but all over the body is a good conditioning tip.

:eek:

[IronFist]

I've always heard:

Rolling something on the shins: kills nerves but doesn't condition the bone.

Kicking stuff (that's not harder than bone): kills the nerves AND conditions the bone. Bones become more dense with impact. Wolff's law. I don't think rolling something on it classifies as "impact."

So why have you guys heard that rolling is bad?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I deleted this post by mistake. Anyway, beating the shins is BAD. please do not chime in when you have no clue what you are talking about. It's hilarious that you think WE are trolls...

rolling the pipe was exactly what I was saying and we have had this argument before.......... and came to the conclusion that iron piping ( no matter how galvinised( is causing long term damage..........

the reason it's meant to be bad, is because it plays / taxes like a shin splint scenario, which if you don't take recovery time from exaccerbates the condition and compunds complications , eventually leading to deadened / black bone........

and because of your blatant disregard for the context and content of my post and your pathetic need to undermine to satify your stupid as*ed ego, YAH. I'm saying you're trolling!!

thought intellegent debate / discussion was a big ask here! :rolleyes:


stick your thread..I'll just go ask an expert!

( slamms door and heads to nearest iron -bod shifu)

[Toby]

IIRC the best exercise for shin splints is to raise and lower your toes repeatedly. You can do it while watching TV. Wonder if this would help?

[blooming lotus]

so you're saying if a system / technique is damaging but you have a combat tech for those repercussions, it might worth doing anyway???????

[Toby]

IMHO yes. My AC joint is screwed. I've been doing a lot of bag work lately. Is it good for my shoulder? Nope. But I don't care. One day I'm gunna chop that ****er out.

[IronFist]

BL, your sig is too long.

Ok, so rolling vs. hitting. Discuss.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

and because of your blatant disregard for the context and content of my post and your pathetic need to undermine to satify your stupid as*ed ego, YAH. I'm saying you're trolling!!

thought intellegent debate / discussion was a big ask here! :rolleyes:



that's hilarious coming from the biggest ego on the forum.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
If you dont turn out the shin then you are just getting kicked on the blocking area rather then blocking the kick. Deflecting is even better. If your structure is really good, you can bounce people off your shield when you block their kick. Then you get a free hit or two from his flank.

As far as getting kicked in the toes, its better then the knee or ribs or face. Practice more. ;)

:eek:

good post.

[SevenStar]

rolling vs hitting - I've always been told that both are bad. hitting being bad is conditional though.

1. If you are hitting something harder than your shin and it has no give - i.e. a tree - that's bad.

2. if you hit it to the point of bruising, it's bad.

That said, I don't do any special conditioning, other than kicking the heavy bag, thai pads and people.

[blooming lotus]

well alot of schools have some sort of conditioning programme , particularly for any boxing type practice, for hand condtioning.

you'd think it'd be much the same, and resistence'd build the same way. If damage from that can be reduced by other means, guess you can't really fault it, starting on something softer and working through to harder .


Ps: Iron: point taken and made

[SevenStar]

working to someting harder is fine (not necessary, but fine all the same), but how hard to progress to? Look at the knuckles pan qing fu had - IMO, that's just not worth it. His hand is nothing more than a club. I heard that mas oyama couldn't use his hand for much either.

[Toby]

I just did several sets of rolling my galvanised pipe up and down my shins between Friday night stomach and forearms workout. Surprising how much that light little pipe hurts after a while. I might keep it up for a month or so and see how it goes. It's pretty easy to superset it with my other exercises since I use the pipe for my final forearm exercise anyway so it's out on the couch next to me. The pipe only weighs about 8lbs, but I certainly felt it in my shins.

[blooming lotus]

way back when, I also did the pipe but all over , like down arms and torso and jazz.........very cool constitution builder if nothing else......... yah.shins and feet hurt.......... but soooooo good!!!!!!!! :D :D :p :)

7: - I think what your saying depends on commitment. not everyone wants to be superman and like myself are just happy to pull something off that works........

cheers ;)

[yenhoi]

I wouldent choose rolling over kicking. I dont think its needed as a supplement, and I dont know if its bad for you.

Just kick alot, all the time, people, pads, and bags.

;)

[rogue]

Talking about shin conditioning with a friend that does MT he pointed out to only condition as much as you need. When he was competeing he conditioned his shins heavily, but now he's eased off alot. He can still take a helluva hit but not what he could in competition. In karate we kick the bag and roll sticks across the shins, yes we block alot with our shins, knees and feet. We use the same elbow to raised knee cover that MT does.

[SevenStar]

did he do any conditioning besides the norm? (pads, bag, sparring, etc)