What level are you?

[YongChun]

I'm sure lots of people can improve upon this but here is a start:

Wing Chun learning progression

1. SLT

Relaxed, hard hitter, with good defense

2. Chi Sau

More relaxed, hard hitter, with better defense

3. CK

Mobile, more relaxed hard hitter, with even better defense

4. BJ

Very mobile, relaxed, penetrating hard hitter, with counters to everything

5. Dummy

Even more very mobile, relaxed, penetrating hardest hitter, with counters to everything

6. Weapons

The most mobile, relaxed, penetrating, hardest hitter, with counters to even more things

7. Competitive Fighter

The most mobile, relaxed, penetrating, hardest hitter, with counters to even more things, and with an attitude.

8. Street Combatant

The most mobile, relaxed, penetrating, hardest hitter, with counters to even more things, and with an even meaner attitude.

9. Master

The most mobile, most relaxed, most penetrating, hardest hitter, with counters to everything, and with a calm spiritual enlightened attitude.

10. Grandmaster

The least movement, most relaxed, calmest person, who does not fear death, is formless in form and beyond all technique.

[PaulH]

I think it's a given that GM Anerlich aces the test. I vote for him 10 out of 10. =)

[old jong]

I'm at 0.33,3333333333333333333333333333333333333333
I barely did the first letter of SLT.....S :(

[PaulH]

Gary has 4 stages:

1. Level 1 - Just know how to perform fundamental crossing hand techniques. Like a chess beginner.
2. Level 2- Know how to use feeling, control, and internal power in your techniques. Know how to go along with your opponent's game.
3. Level 3 - Coach training. Know how set up the chess game so that you don't play his game.
4. Level 4 - natural fighting. You just do whatever you want!

I'm at level 2.

P.S. Old Jong, don't be too modest. You're at least #5! =)

[AmanuJRY]

Ray,

I would modify your list in these regards.

1. Being that not all branches of WC, have the same training curriculum I would break up the forms like; SLT and CK = beginner stage, should develop strong stance/footwork, able to use and understand basics of body mechanics and flexible force (soft force, relaxed power-whatever you want to call it). BJ and Dummy = Intermediate stage, should be able to express technique effectively in 'live' resistance testing, refined sensitivity outside of chi sau, and the ability to adapt and 'think outside the box' (a 'first step' toward 'formless in form and beyond all technique'). The pole training should start relativlely early (after SLT, and maybe CK) and BCD as an 'advanced' stage work. The dummy would serve as a segway into advanced work and the knives, part of the development, as these two forms tend to vary and are the setting for 'personalizing' WC.

2. The terms 'competitive fighter' and 'street combatant' don't fit into the structure of a system as a 'level' of development, IMO. They are more fit to describe a person's doctrine than development.

3. To me the title of 'Grandmaster' is gratuitous. Once a person has reached a level of 'Mastery' that's the end of the rainbow. Not to say that one does not learn beyond that, and not to say that one is 'finished' with the system, just that it has been 'mastered'. A 'Grandmaster' would then be just a 'Master' who has 'fathered' someone to mastery. Therefore, your statements regarding a Master and Grandmaster would both reflect (more or less) my view of a Master. I would also add that a Master would be able to answer any question regarding form, strategy, tactics, attributes and their development, clearly and effectivly to ANYONE who were to ask.

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P.S. I like the way Gary (Lam) breaks down his system.

and, OJ, you are quite modest.;)

[blooming lotus]

gen western boxers do it......???

[Marky]

In regard to the "high-level" Street Combatant category, I know from first-hand experience that you don't have to be good at fighting to be an excellent streetfighter. "Street Combatant" could be an addendum attached to any of those levels, and even levels of lower ability than those listed, IME.

[t_niehoff]

This is a simplifed version of how we train:

Step one -- learn a form, not necessarily a linked set, but a technique, a point (yau dim), a san sik, etc. and the extensions of that form.

Step two -- drill it so that the student can get the "feel" (what I call "the comfortability stage").

Step three -- put that into a fighting environment.

I use this progression from the very beginning. The first thing a student learns is the punch, it's extensions, and associated body mechanics (punch from YJKYM, and it's extentions). Then we drill it until he has the "feel" for it. Then we put it into fighting. From application, he will begin to see for himself many of the application concepts (like kuen siu kuen, lin siu die da, etc.). But many of these will also be pointed out when we dissect his performance.

Then we go onto the next point, tan and fook (and their extensions), for when his punch meets an obstruction. We drill that. Then put it into fighting.

And so on.

After a student has "the points" in sufficient number, I show them the linked set of those points, the SNT for example. Then they can see and understand for themselves why the form contain the points it does, how they can be used, the organization behind the linkage, etc.

We don't view SNT/CK/BJ/MYJ as "levels"; instead, we view them as "points" organized thematically. So the progression we follow will often involve learning or developing points out of the SNt/CK/BJ 'order' because the practitioner has a need for them.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by crimsonking
How can you possibly fight if you are truly at SLT level if you havent been shown any footwork? No shift, turn, step, nothing.

Do you either introduce elements from higher up the system (CK, BJ etc) before SLT, or put the applications stuff on hold for a couple of years to allow for proper wing chun development?

Are you suggesting that those elements of footwork are advanced?

IMHO, shifting, turning, stepping, power generation from footwork...this is taught from the onset of training, they are the most important aspects of it. Footwork is a key factor in making any hand techniques work effectivly. By teaching hand techniques and omitting the footwork aspects for later, more 'advanced' training, the instructor is 'milking' out the training.

Footwork should be trained with the SLT stage. And fight ability should begin shortly after the student has the stage one stuff down (of course this would be rudamentary at first and evolve during the course of the subsequent levels of training).

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
This is a simplifed version of how we train:

Step one -- learn a form, not necessarily a linked set, but a technique, a point (yau dim), a san sik, etc. and the extensions of that form.

Step two -- drill it so that the student can get the "feel" (what I call "the comfortability stage").

Step three -- put that into a fighting environment.

I use this progression from the very beginning. The first thing a student learns is the punch, it's extensions, and associated body mechanics (punch from YJKYM, and it's extentions). Then we drill it until he has the "feel" for it. Then we put it into fighting.

Your way of describing things is interesting and spurs some further questions:

a) It appears that you are implying a correlation between the skills in practice and the fighting scenario. To that end, in a “real” fighting environment, which is by its nature totally random and unpredictable, how do you ensure that an explicit and appropriate situation arises for the learner to employ and practice the specific technique (sic) of interest?

b) Do you restrict the learner to specific techniques in a “real fight” in order to ensure they are practiced? This could raise a whole slew of related questions.

c) If parceling out techniques for practice individually or in phases (e.g., they only know how to punch), how is the safety of the learner ensured when in the random, unpredictable, and immenently threatening "real" fighting environment that may demand much more than that particular technique or subset of skills?

Some things continue not to add up. On the one hand you propose (as I have too) that anyone knows how to fight - not necessarily well or skillfully, but instinctively so. Yet you also propose that Wing Chun people who don't engage in real fights, can't; perhaps those comments were an exaggeration for illustration purposes. Your differing ways of describing a real fight often reads as self-contradictory too (e.g., sometimes it is a real all out aiming to maim each other, and other times there is no safety risk). I continue to believe the dilemma may in largest part boil down to differing intepretations and usage of the term "real fight." Perhaps some of the confusion will be dispelled in addressing the questions above.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yellowpikachu]

How and When Can I get rid of all concepts and styles and ways to become a water naturally spontaneus flowing as it is?

That is the ultimate of the WATERY WING CHUN!

and, Opps I forget where am I. but I know I am typing this man made key board, so I must be still far away from that WATERY WINGCHUN ultimate.


As for the PIKACHU learning to be Happy everyday and every instant,
How many level are there toward Happiness? Anyone remember every instant of the Process Laughing?

Laugh and one will be happy. but one has to know the process of how to laugh. as for the goal, the result..sound great in the thoughts but... that tie up the face muscle...

relax, dont think about anything, and just start to laugh. simple right? the rest is about how much experience on the PROCESS of laughing.


get rid of those result or level. that is for reporting to the BOSS according to the BOSS's requirement (that is his company or his tribe BUT he doesnt OWN the whole WORLD and he is NO GOD even he loves to make belive he is.) , and it is not necessary what the BOSS's requirement is right and even sometime, THe BOSS is pulling reverse gear and DEAD WRONG.

[yellowpikachu]

how come I dont see SLT or SNT but just saw a ---"globe", scoop, .....(what ever) ---- of moving momentum? Strange isnt it?

I must have my eyes sight check. getting too old now adays.

[YongChun]

Hi Kathy-Jo,

I agree with these sentiments. One the one hand some people are saying to train more realistically by trying to take each other's heads off (which intelligent human beings with families and jobs tend not to do) and on the other hand they say this process can be controlled by wearing protection and being careful. Of course once you do the latter that's the same as everyone does already.

Even boxers in training don't try to knock each other's heads off. Much of their fury comes from conditioning, running, bag work, empty air shadow boxing etc. and not from trying to take their sparring partner's head off.

Likewise BJJ is rather controlled in that you don't try to break your partner's arms, neck and knees.

People train the way they do probably mainly for safety reasons. BJJ roll around on a soft mat, Wing Chun people do chi sau and knife fighters practice with safety knives. Even the Dog brothers (Escrima guys who hit each other in the limbs to draw blood) don't try to actually hit each other in the head with full power using a non padded stick. If they did, then they would be in jail pretty fast. So all this kind of training is relatively safe. It just so happens that the rolling around on a rubber mat is also very practical but then a lot of Wing Chun fighters in the old days said chi sau was also practical for what they needed in their day.

It is unclear what we really need today for the street. It is clear what we need to fight the Thais or mixed martial artists and I suggest to train exactly like they do if you are into that kind of thing.

Tai Chi pushing hands came about because of too many injuries, some fatal. Filipino martial arts went downhill in the Phillipines because people didn't like getting whacked for real and so the modern Arnis method of stick to stick hitting was developed. Still TaeKwonDo is now more popular than Escrima or Arnis in the Phillipines from what I read. Now we have stickfighting tournaments with so much protection that children could participate.

The majority of martial artists in any art are not into true gladiatorial contests, Ultimate fighting contests or Thai boxing contests and so don't feel the need to train like those people do. If called upon to fight in a war or defend one's loved one for real then everyone can do that without years and years of training.

[old jong]

I don't see "levels" in Wing Chun. I see beginners who gradually digest the art's principles and get better in it at their own pace,each facing their own personal problems or success.
I see also mere beginners who do better than others.I believe that there can be only "personal" levels.

[blooming lotus]

not that I've really ever done much wing chun, but that is an awesome comment and I think applies cross board to all facets .

cheers

[anerlich]

I think it's a given that GM Anerlich aces the test. I vote for him 10 out of 10. =)

Thanks Paul, way too generous, but I want nothing to do with Masters or Grandmasters.

I don't know what level I'm on, but at least I hope I'm riding the up elevator.

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong sez:

I see also mere beginners who do better than others.I believe that there can be only "personal" levels
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The Boob in the Yellow Submarine sez:

Ad hoc ad hoc and quid pro quo

So little time and so much to know.

Gotta put in the footnotes.