What do you know about Rib Power and what is your power development like...

[diego]

you here things like inch power, full body power, push-pull power in the karate arts etc

I have two thing I'm going to post tommorrow to add to the discussion, but I'm curious what your styles power development is like.

If there is any western boxers in the place would you fill me in on the various power development styles in boxing...did tyson throw his punches the same as ali for instance?.

This could be an interesting thread and if it has been done already could someone please post the link.

agian, what do you know about rib power?. all I know is that it has something to do with the expanding and compressing of the ribs during a punch.
cheers:)

[diego]

well 6 views from total beginners:) can we get some peeps with experiance up in here?

I'm going to post a nice article on thrusting punches in karate tommorrow....hopefully that will get the ball rollinhg
have a good night

[blooming lotus]

I have done alot of western boxing , though not as much as many here. as far as i know , there are no special power gen techs , just good form and bulk conditioning in hopes you're building muscle and tech skill enough to get it away with enough power.

happy to stand corrected but from several yrs, that's my best take.

Blooming Lotus

[Buby]

Dip Gwat Ging(Rib Power) is trained from day one in styles like Yau Kung Mun, Pak Mei, and S. Mantis. When we learn our posture of Ha Hum (monkey chest/tiger back) and couple it with the theory of rise, sink, swallow, spit you are starting to training rib power. Now there are special excerises or chi gungs that can be trained to maximize the rib power to its full potiental. We have a form in Yau Kung Mun called Ying Ching which is excellent for the development of Dip Gwat Ging. We also break out certain sections of the form and train them as hard chi gung.

Take care,
Buby

[_William_]

Hello,

This below article talks about expanding the ribs during a punch, is it similar to how you guys do it?

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=176

Also, what is the rationale for using the ribs in strikes?

[diego]

okay so I forgot the article but I will do my best to remember it's points.

Generally the first punch one learns in Karate is the horizontal thrust punch, and the beginner will chamber his rear fist at his hip while turning his lead fist from a palm up position into a horizontal thrust punch. At first he will simply use arm power from his punching arm and eventually will figure out that the harder he pulls back his rear chamber arm, the more torque he will create in his punch.

So, at first he will just use single arm power, then he will use shoulder rotation combining the pull back of his chamber fist with the pushing out of his thrusting fist which is called Hikite in Karate or the "withdrawing hand"...then eventualy he will combine this with rotation of the hips once he has drilled the technique enough and becomes more relaxed.

an intermediate practitioner will find out that the turning of the thrusting fist from palm up to horizontal is not what it originally seemed to be and he will only do the turn of the fist when his thrusting arm is only a few inches from his opponnent...so he won't do the turn from the hip, he only does it just before he makes contact with his target.

Eventually the advanced practitioner realizes the thrust punch is more than just a simple straight line, and the Okinawan Karate greats are known to do this punch so that when he hits there is a sudden expanding and contracting of the fist which it is said will make the opponnent fall face forward instead of backward.

Now, I have never seen or heard of this happenning but the action makes sence to me and it should to you if you have ever been or seen someone get kicked in the testicals where they freeze up, grab the crotch and fall face forward. Has anyone ever heard about this before?.

This is what I want this thread to be about...I don't wish to see video of all of your methods (unless you would be so inclined:) ) I just want to know what a sport scientist would think about your style if he put it under his microscope. I'm trying to understand the scientific differances between the various martial arts of the world and how it all relates to our scientific physical make up...so I don't want to hear about dragonball z shooting chi...I want to know how that chi physically enhances your styles methods, etc.:)

[diego]

Originally posted by _William_
Hello,

This below article talks about expanding the ribs during a punch, is it similar to how you guys do it?

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=176

Also, what is the rationale for using the ribs in strikes? I would appreciatte any answers to these questions as well:)

William do you have any links to photo's of the Russian Military Press?.

[diego]

Originally posted by Buby
Dip Gwat Ging(Rib Power) is trained from day one in styles like Yau Kung Mun, Pak Mei, and S. Mantis. When we learn our posture of Ha Hum (monkey chest/tiger back) and couple it with the theory of rise, sink, swallow, spit you are starting to training rib power. Now there are special excerises or chi gungs that can be trained to maximize the rib power to its full potiental. We have a form in Yau Kung Mun called Ying Ching which is excellent for the development of Dip Gwat Ging. We also break out certain sections of the form and train them as hard chi gung.

Take care,
Buby I have read about the concepts of rise, sink, swallow, spit while analyzing the internal styles...are these theories pretty much the same throughout the chinese arts?.

So, Crimsonking wrote "Rib power in wing chun is introduced in the Biu Jee form.
You'll see it more explicitly in southern mantis"
How come Wing Chunners wait until the third form...and from what I've heard...wait about a good three years before training Rib Power, and SM chaps build on it right away?. What is the differant theories behind the training of this skill?.:)
cheers

[diego]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I have done alot of western boxing , though not as much as many here. as far as i know , there are no special power gen techs , just good form and bulk conditioning in hopes you're building muscle and tech skill enough to get it away with enough power.

happy to stand corrected but from several yrs, that's my best take.

Blooming Lotus so taking my model of a karate thrust punch which starts with simple arm power, then shoulder rotation to hip rotation to a full rotation expanding/contracting fist...what is the levels of a western boxers fist

how did ali punch when he first learned how to, and how did he in his prime?.

I remember someone writing about ali did a funky plant thingy before his strikes orsomething differant than the average western boxer...also I know Ali was a trained karate black belt so I am curious if he used his asian martial arts in his western boxing tech's?

what are the differant systems of boxing? I know there is a Peek a boo method and more but I'm not too sure about them:)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by diego

I remember someone writing about ali did a funky plant thingy before his strikes orsomething differant than the average western boxer...also I know Ali was a trained karate black belt so I am curious if he used his asian martial arts in his western boxing tech's?


diego,

you got reference on the ali was a karateka story?

[diego]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
diego,

you got reference on the ali was a karateka story?

can't remember the guys name right now...but there was an article in one of the martial art mags and he was describing his time training with ali...i think he certified ali with a black belt and i'm pretty sure it was mentioned that ali trained in another style or got a belt somewhere else as well...ali was tarining with these guys at they camp for an upcoming fight!?.

[diego]

i think it may have been george dillman that pressure point knockout guy?!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by diego
so taking my model of a karate thrust punch which starts with simple arm power, then shoulder rotation to hip rotation to a full rotation expanding/contracting fist...what is the levels of a western boxers fist

how did ali punch when he first learned how to, and how did he in his prime?.

I remember someone writing about ali did a funky plant thingy before his strikes orsomething differant than the average western boxer...also I know Ali was a trained karate black belt so I am curious if he used his asian martial arts in his western boxing tech's?

what are the differant systems of boxing? I know there is a Peek a boo method and more but I'm not too sure about them:)

Dude.I am no Ali , so unless you read the book/ bio , I can't really tell you :) :) :) lol.........

on that note though, in gongfu ( chinese style ) we have this thing called the 3 jings principal ...... for a fist / hand strike, that means , power through hip / kneee toe alignement , followed by hip / shoulder / fist, and sue me if wrong, because I've been drinking, but add another joint pivot to ground your power base and see what form you produce.

Ps: lvls of a western boxers fist??? budong. no idea what you're asking..........can restate the question???

[diego]

all i can find is that they were sparring partners and don't have the time to search more.

[blooming lotus]

who were ?? :confused:

[diego]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Dude.I am no Ali , so unless you read the book/ bio , I can't really tell you :) :) :) lol.........

on that note though, in gongfu ( chinese style ) we have this thing called the 3 jings principal ...... for a fist / hand strike, that means , power through hip / kneee toe alignement , followed by hip / shoulder / fist, and sue me if wrong, because I've been drinking, but add another joint pivot to ground your power base and see what form you produce.

Ps: lvls of a western boxers fist??? budong. no idea what you're asking..........can restate the question??? restate quickly

when clay walked into the gym for the first time did he punch the same as he did in his prime as ali...just like in the karate thrust punch at first you just use arm power and then you turn it into hip and shoulder rotational power with a funky snap as was mentioned. gotta run peace

[diego]

ali and dillman...follow along now:)

[cerebus]

Ali & Dillman were friends. As far as I know, Ali never had any formal training in Karate (though Dillman was once a boxer). I've seen pics of Ali sparring (informally, looks like they were just messing around) with Daniel Pai (late Pai Lum grandmaster) at an event conducted by Dillman.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by diego
restate quickly

when clay walked into the gym for the first time did he punch the same as he did in his prime as ali

I guess, but by the time his " Ali persona " kicked in he had a lil more combat phsycology to work with and no doubt was conditioned just that much more..........

cheers

Ps: dillman?? no Imofo dea! Just a practictioner, not a fan by any means ..sorry ;) :)

[cerebus]

Huh?:confused:

[WanderingMonk]

Diego,

The only Ali and karate story I had read was that Ali was telling Elvis that karate wasn't anything special. Evlis begs to differ and swept Ali in the leg. Ali supposedly fell. got up. they laugh it off.

I am sure boxer use rib power or more like the structural muscle at the rib regions. Their training of this region would consist of sit ups, broom stick turns, etc.

Mechanics wise, I guess boxer coach sort of just let the fighter feel it out. Punching a heavy bag thousands times a day, you sort of find your own sweet spot or what you feel get the most striking power out. It is not really a bad idea. do what comes natural.

[_William_]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kettlebells.php?Name=Two-Arm+Kettlebell+Military+Press

[IronFist]

wtf is rib power?

[WanderingMonk]

energy you get from eating bbq ribs.

[diego]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Diego,

The only Ali and karate story I had read was that Ali was telling Elvis that karate wasn't anything special. Evlis begs to differ and swept Ali in the leg. Ali supposedly fell. got up. they laugh it off.

I am sure boxer use rib power or more like the structural muscle at the rib regions. Their training of this region would consist of sit ups, broom stick turns, etc.

Mechanics wise, I guess boxer coach sort of just let the fighter feel it out. Punching a heavy bag thousands times a day, you sort of find your own sweet spot or what you feel get the most striking power out. It is not really a bad idea. do what comes natural. Interesting:) I'm pretty sure I read Ali had a blackbelt!? What I'm really curious about tho is what does training rib power do for ones strikes?.

Just remembered something and going to watch it later...in rumble in the jungle ali talks about a special snapping type punch he uses...can't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure someone on this forum wrote something about a year ago about how Ali punches differant than most western boxers!?.

Thanks for yall input you guys

[Hermes3X]

two things I've noticed about Ali

1. his punches do twist a bit at the end, but so do most Western boxers' jabs and straight punches, except that where the martial arts straight punch starts with knuckles facing the floor and ends with knuckles facing straight up, the boxing straight punch starts with knuckles Pointing up to the sky and ends with the index and ring, ie the punching, knuckles facing towards the inside of the boxer's body

2. Ali also says "Forman Boo maye aa" alot. Nothing's better than that scene with Ali and James Brown and people all sitting around a table rapping. So cool.....


that's all I know, for what it's worth. I could be very wrong

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
wtf is rib power?



Originally posted by WanderingMonk
energy you get from eating bbq ribs.


some funny jazz, but really now, what
did you mean by that???

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
energy you get from eating bbq ribs. LOL! :D

BL click here. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=joke)

Lesson number... bugger, geniouses with supercomputers are still working on finding a number that high...

[Mr Punch]

BTW on topic, as Crimsonking said in WC some degree of rib expansion is developed in the biu jee form, but it's not really stressed.

One of the reasons why not I think is because many WC punchers are very one-dimensional: they only punch with a very small upward or downward angle... most of the punching is horizontal. Although there are many moves you should be training from chum kiu onwards, many WCers always fall back on single axial (sometimes though not always 'chain-') punching.

That's also why many WCers are very stiff in the hips (apart from actually not moving them!). A good multi-level 3-dimensional hitter in WC or any art will maybe concentrate more on the 'ripple effect' of spinal motion for the vertical plane (straight uppercuts, low jum saos etc), on good hip, waist and lower abdomen movement for the horizontal plane (reverse punches, chain punches, jabs, hooks) and on a degree of both (resulting in a 'scrunching' and expanding of the ribcage) on multilevel strikes (looping hooks, overhead elbows etc).

In boxing I haven't been taught about any kind of rib expansion/contraction: it's just concentration on form and delivery, but if you analyse the mechanics of boxing it seems to some idea of rib movement.

The most developed form of rib stuff I've been shown was in some Systema exercises, and my internal teacher has a similar exercise where you are punched in the chest or abdomen and you 'roll' the blow inwards while returning the strike.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, sorry for the multiposting but just thought about this... Ive never really seen anything that makes me conclude that 'rib-power' as it were, is anything other than a natural follow-on from having the right form and using your hips, spine etc in the right structure...

Whether there is some way you can train your rib-cage for delivering strikes I don't know... my internals and that one Systema session seem closest but I'm not far enough down that road yet!!!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Mat
LOL! :D

BL click here. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=joke)

Lesson number... bugger, geniouses with supercomputers are still working on finding a number that high...




:rolleyes:


on rib control :- There are so many ways to approach this, and I think alot of the generation of your power in delivering a strike , particularly when talking jings , and combinations of jings , comes from your torso and having adequate control over it. I guess it's the difference between using your whole body to strike or just your arms and shoulders.

I've spoken about this before in relation to training ( particularly on the health and kf training forum ) on so many different threads it's not funny. The best way to condition your ribs, I feel is to work on some pilates style rib - drawing ( navel to spine and draw ribs down until you're breathing into your lower diaphragm ) as a compliment to your qigong, your boxing or while you're doing your ab work, particlulary any lateral work at all) combined with breathing techs and qi building and directing , which after a while , and as you gain condition, becomes a natural posture and breathing pattern.

Really Matt, being that you do wingchun and this is just an iron body variation, I 'm not so sure why you don't understand.

for rib expansion however, I think some basic sitting qigong ( as you'll find pics of on Xing Hao s' website www.houstoshaolin.com )
and some good breathing techs as compliment to the above will do the trick.

cheers

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
There are so many ways to approach this, and I think alot of the generation of your power in delivering a strike , particularly when talking jings , and combinations of jings , comes from your torso and having adequate control over it. Agreed..
I guess it's the difference between using your whole body to strike or just your arms and shoulders.If you're talking about torso including abdominal muscles and waist as well as a nominal notion of rib control, agreed. If not, the honeymoon's over baby! :D
The best way to condition your ribs, I feel is to work on some pilates style rib - drawing ( navel to spine and draw ribs down until you're breathing into your lower diaphragm ) as a compliment to your qigong, your boxing or while you're doing your ab work, particlulary any lateral work at all) combined with breathing techs and qi building and directing , which after a while , and as you gain condition, becomes a natural posture and breathing pattern.Don't get what you mean by 'navel to spine' (and I don't know 'pilates') but otherwise the exercise sounds reasonable and I agree if you practise enough it becomes part of your natural posture. But...

Really Matt, being that you do wingchun and this is just an iron body variation, I 'm not so sure why you don't understand. There is no iron body in any of the wing chun I have learned from a number of lines up to biu jee and the dummy level. Nor, as I understand it, is there any in the pole or baat forms. I have never done any iron body, though for a while I did do a very hard Tibetan chikung set (roughly along the lines of the eight-silk brocade).

In fact what I was talking about was more along the lines of:

1) flexibility of your torso (spine, chest and abdomen) to 'roll' off strikes from your opponent, and 'roll' out strikes to your opponent. This would follow the 'take what comes, follow what goes' principles of many styles. It is not iron body.
2) Soft body. Making your body completely loose: 'Iron arms, tofu body'. This is not iron body.

Given that wing chun and iron body are not connected, but that also I don't really see what you're talking about as iron body, I'm not really sure why you don't understand... that I never said anything about not understanding. What I said was, and I stand by this...

I have yet to be shown anything that leads me to conclude that so-called 'rib-power' is anything distinct from:

spinal flexibility and strength
waist flexibility and strength
abdomen flexibility and strength,

or 'rib-control'/'rib-power' exercises to be exercising anything other than the above.

There are other people in this thread who obviously practise these kind of exercises and believe them to be adding something to their rib-power/control and that it has a positive effect on their kungfu. Good for them. If I was shown what they do, maybe I would too.

That would have been a nice discussion post Lotus, if you hadn't have taken a superior tone and accused me of not understanding something. If I don't understand something I don't post, or I say 'I don't understand'. Simple see, straight talking! But me being snottier than you, you're not getting away with it!!! :D :p

[Lowlynobody]

Rib power is for short/shock power. The ribs draw down and compress using the lats, correct posture, and breath compression. The very short shock goes through the elbow, wrist and then out the hands. With consequitive strikes there is no pulling back of the hands they simply strike from where they are as the ribs and body compresses more and more. Thus with strong rib power you dont need to pull your hands back to hit hard. You simply strike from wherever your hands are at the time. Its a twitch and you've hit. Very fast.

There is a connection with rib power to iron body. This type of power generation makes your body 'hard' for the instant of the shock/strike. Thus the saying - hit with ging and you won't get hurt. Also why you see experienced people strike someone the same time they themselves are hit. It brings their 'iron body' into place for the instant they emit the power of their strike.

As mentioned before Yau Kung Mun has this and the main development of rib power is in the Ying Ching set.


LN

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist
wtf is rib power?

:confused:

[Lowlynobody]

I'm sorry. What was the question?

[blooming lotus]

I think it was " wtf is rib power??"


Iron fist:- I wish i had language to make you understand this!! You've worked so hard and I would love to see you grasp this!!!

I'm sorry, anyone else??????

[TAO YIN]

Ironfist,

Put your arms out in front of you like a boxing guard. Breathe in as deep as you can...Now breathe out quickly, and roll and sink your shoulders forward, and sink your elbow, and twist your wrist, and punch...and sink your breathe into your dan tien, and hunch your back, and compress your ribs together, and do all this at once...and something like this, and do all this without "loading" your punch...it's already "loaded."

hmmmm, Rib Power is allowing the gravity of your breath to do the work for you...or something like that.


"I'm sorry I wasn't listening."

[diego]

Interesting replies you guys...gotta let it sink in a bit before I ask any more questions on Rib Power.

Next question is, what is Inch power, and do styles other than Wing Chun and I presume SPM specialize in it, and why do I always hear about it in Wing Chun besides the fact that Lee Sui Lung liked to impress peeps with it at Karate demo's?:)

[Lowlynobody]

Tao Yin - Hey bro. How are things over there? My new email is scox@exemail.com.au send me one sometime soon and let me know how your holding up.

I had a feeling you would know I was "talking about The Dude". :cool:


One way to define inch power is that the hands are not pulled back or recoiled before striking. They strike from where they are while at close bridging type range. There is no wind up at all.

Most Hakka styles will have something along the lines of short or shock power. Watch the dynamic tension found in southern mantis. One thing they are training is their rib power - draw elbows down and in tight under tension then explode with 3 consecutive strikes. Their first form.


LN

[Mr Punch]

Great post.
Originally posted by Lowlynobody
There is a connection with rib power to iron body.Nobody had said there wasn't though. Although, now I will say that using your description and model 'rib-power' can be expressed through other means than iron body too.

[Mr Punch]

Ironfist, read the bloody thread geezer!

[Ray Pina]

Yes, rib power is important and litterally adds mass to the strike. I think of it more as "quarter section" than "rib" though ... shoulder, upper back, rib, put the whole thing out there.