Siu lim tau and cham kiu clips

[northstar]

Have you checked out the clips on Wing Chun Kwoon (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp)? What do you think of them? In comparison with how I do SLT, there's a whole lot more circling arm movements on the site.

[kungfu cowboy]

Umm, er, hmmm...yeah.

Barry Manilow ain't no vegetable.

[kungfu cowboy]

Funny that their forms have the same name as wing chun forms.

Barry Manilow ain't no vegetable.

[Sharky]

i have a 56k modem that for some reason only connects at 36k. anyway, after waiting for days, weeks, even years for this to download, it didn't work cos i have a mac.

so, if you have a mac, don't bother - unless you know how to get windows media player on os 9....

My anus is superior™

[wingchun.com]

So as this is a William Cheung style school that explains the difference. The next question of course would be, is this how Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun does it's sets?

[vertical fist]

....that was different.

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[durian]

A nice display of "GM" William Cheung's creativity, I suppose.

[Martial Joe]

****it they didnt work for me...il try again...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif

[Sharky]

ok i checked the slt on my pc. i thought wing chun wasn't supposed to be flowery?

it's just bad.

Edd

My anus is superior™

[MasterPhil]

I find it amazing that "masters" from the same lineage (Yip Man), show such wide differences in the execution of basic forms... Now, since I don't know everything, I won't say it's garbage. But I'd be really interested in hearing the guy's rationale behind some of his moves... I suspect THAT would be even funnier! I understand there may be slight differences between different Yip Man lineage sifus. But there should be a strong explanation based on WC principles for each moves. These clips make you wonder: How does a beginner differentiate between the good, the bad, and the ugly?

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[ATENG]

VERY interesting to say the least...its very different from the version i learned. the guy seemed really tense and choppy...i always thought slt was supposed to be done relaxed?

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[ATENG]

the chum kiu is almost a complete different form from what i was taught. you have to wonder why the same students of yipman all have slightly different versions of the forms. and then there is the one i just saw...<scratches head>

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[Buhma]

No comment......

[Printer]

Was just taught SLT (don't have it down yet)....

I checked out the clip. It has simlarities but would really have screwed me up had I seen it before I went to class Aug 13.

As for form or style - that all leads back to the teacher/sifu debate that rages thoughout almost every chatroom or message board I have been on.

Props must be given to them tho for taking the time to at least post something such as that - it can be truly helpfull to those within that school. I would love it if I could get a video clip or still set of a black sash or sifu from my school doing SLT. It would be an excellent traing aid.

[northstar]

I agree that it's great that they took the time to make the forms available. But they ARE rather strange looking, right? The people on the site claimed William Cheung lineage as I recall. Are there any students of his on the board who would like to comment?
In comparison with our SLT (Yui Choi - Yui Kiu - Tang Wai-po) there are significant differences in both techniques and, of course, flavor.

[dzu]

I'm not a student of WIlliam Cheung's WC but I have seen it demonstrated several times by some of his students and ex students. From what I remember, the MPEGS seem pretty typical of their WC in terms of choreography. They also have an Advanced SLT that comes after SLT but before Chum Kiu. The only difference is that there is some minor footwork during the fak sau section moving forwards and backwards at diagonals.

This is true or not, the extra footwork in CK is can also be found in the dummy set, so it's nothing new. As to whether it is his modification or another line of WC, I choose not to speculate on that.

From talking to ex-students of his, the versions of the forms have even changed through out the years depending upon when you trained with him.

Again, no judgments from me, just stating the facts as I know them.

regards,

Dz

[maestro]

You asked if this is how the Hung Fa Yi does the SNT.... Not really... About the only thing we do the same is the opening (HFY opening of SNT looks like the opening of Yip Man Bil Ji). There are a lot more movements in the HFY SNT.

Maestro :cool:

Swimming is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from drowning.
Fighting is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from dying.

[chessGMwannabe]

dzu, did I understand what you said correctly? you said that their forms were changing significantly over a four year period? Since wc is an art and I don't think that it should be strictly dogmatic, it seems possible to change certain parts to stress different principles, but doesn't it seem like that could really mess up some of their students? it seems like it would at least slow them in their progress. for me at least it seems like it takes a while of doing the mechanics of the form before I can really start to feel where power is coming from. if by teh time you undertood the mechanics in your brain, you had to relearn it, i feel like I could end up robbed of most of the in depth learning. I'm sure that for a master it would be fine, because they are familiar with it and the changes would make sense to them, but it sounds a little elitist to me.

[dzu]

This is dangerously close to politics since I am not a student of William Cheung Sifu. All I know is that some of his ex-students have mentioned to me that he has taught several versions of his forms during different times of his life. I don't know why he decided to make the changes or over what time period these changes were made. It could be as broad as over 20 years. I don't know if he made his students re-learn the same forms over again or not. Maybe his earlier students got one version and his more recent students got a different version. Since it's his WC lineage and interpretation, it's his perogative to make whatever changes he wants.

regards,

Dzu

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Dzu is correct that this is a touchy subject. However, just to put things into perspective I would like to point out that William Cheung is not alone in making changes to his forms.

I know for a fact that Leung Ting made changes to his Chum Kui a couple of times. How? Because I learned several versions from him. Also, Chung Kwok Chow has made changes to his forms as well.

I think that change is a natural outgrowth of ones knowledge of the art and what the form represents. I am not advocating making sweeping changes but, I may find a slight modification based on my body structure works better for me. Thus I may make some changes. For example, I have severed a tendon in my left hand. This makes it difficult for me to make and hold a fist with this hand. It also makes it difficult for me to perform the fingers downward palm strike found within the SNT, right after Bong/Taun. So, I have modified my form to do a sideward palm instead. I still strive to perform the downward palm but since the sideward works for me I do that more.

Peace,

Dave

[Anarcho]

There seems to be a bit of a tendency in the Wing Chun community to see any differences from one's own way of doing things as a negative thing, which I've never understood...

[marcelino31]

There are several differences between Traditional Wing Chun vs modified wing chun in all the WC FORMS both empty hand and weapons.In SLT,
the circular movements that you refer to is called lau sao.This off the centerline movement is not present in modified wing chun SLT which only does a huen sao instead. Bong sao is done with the elbow at eyebrow level and the hand kept straight inline with the forearm. The tan sao and wu sao come out to face level and not at chest level as the modified wing chun version does...also the fook sao is pointing at the opposite foot as it goes out creating a tunnel with the forearm to protect the centerline...

Keep in mind that the video clip movements are performed at a faster pace then normal so that your clip can be downloadable....

The circling hand that people are calling flowery, is called a lau sao (slippling hand). You must disengage the centerline in order to get around an opponents arm. Try getting around an arm while leaving your arm directly in the center, like in a huen sao. Some will say that a circle is not as direct or efficient as a straight line, but remember, a circle can be as small as a pinpoint. Also, the wooden dummy teaches proper WC positioning. The tan sao performed on the dummy is face high. Try it.

[kungfu cowboy]

A circle is composed of an infinity of straight lines. That circle thingy is still WAY to big.

[Chum Kil]

My Sifu learned from William Cheung back in the early 80's. Our forms do not look like this, we do perform the heun sau (small circle) our tan sau is high, but not right in front of the face. In Chum Kil we go forward after bong/larp sau not on a 45 degree angle. Where these changes came from I'm not sure, but Sifu Cheung has been known to change stuff along the way. Also in Sifu Cheung's lineage I never heard of Chum Kil being called Chum Kiu. Just my opinion.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[nathangatling]

Don't you know that kungfu cowboy is a master. He knows!

That flowery circle thingy is WAY too big. Maybe if you circled a little smaller...ok, alot smaller, it would be acceptable.

[marcelino31]

"Circle thingy" thats a very funny way of talking about a technique you know nothing about....well duh i guess your master knows everything about the infinity of straight lines in a circle I think you all miss the point....but thats ok next time someone pak saos your forearm try doing your "straight thingy huen sao" and see if you get anywhere

[tnwingtsun]

My anus is superior.......


Maybe,but your Mac Sux! :D

I agree with ATENG

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 09-03-01 at 03:23 PM.]

I speak Cantonese. Chum Kiu is the proper way to pronounce it. Biu Jee is also correct. If you don't believe me. Write to the US Foreign Service, or Yale University Language Dept. They are the experts on proper Cantonese pronounciation. Maybe with your great knowledge of the language you can correct them. Sifu Cheung did not have to learn Cantonese through phonetics, so his romanization is off a little. He sometimes uses, tarn sao, but there is no "r" sound in Cantonese. It's funny how people make statements with little or no knowledge. I have a tape of Sifu Cheung at his first NYC seminar in 1984 where he does the lau sao just as I described

[kungfu cowboy]

Yes. My secret is discovered. I have a subscription to the "secret books of mystical wing chun correct application" Time/Life series.

I would use a circle only as big as the hand that makes it for huen sao. Otherwise, if using the whole arm, too much time. Just go straight towards them then. Why go around the block when you can cut through the back yard?

[chi-kwai]

"It's funny how people make statements with little or no knowledge. I have a tape of Sifu Cheung at his first NYC seminar in 1984 where he does the lau sao just as I described "

----
why not digitize this portion of the video? i am curious to see how he executes it.

--
chi kwai

[wingchun.com]

I asked if the forms were similar as I have heard from students of William Cheung that upon seeing Garrett Gee they were shocked as he and moved in the same way as William Cheung did.

That led me to wonder if the other form of Wing Chun which William used to claim he learned from Yip Man, but then also told Tai-pan that he learned while in South China from someone else, was in fact a variant of Hung Fa Yi. Perhaps some of the folks here on the list from the east coast could discuss this with Joe Grepo and see what he says.

I know that some of ex-William Cheung australian guy's (from the Rick Spain group), mention red boat more these days and refer to themselves as hung suen style, etc.

Therefore, my question was, if Garrett and William had the same structure and movement, was that because they were doing the same Wing Chun variant?

If that was the case, then perhaps their basic 3 sets would have the same movements, presuming we buy into William's story of a different version of Wing Chun and it not being an interpretation he has developed on his own.

The Chum Kiu form they are doing on the wing chun kwoon site, looks very different. With almost a karate flavor to it, what with the front kicks.

Hey kungfu cowboy. The whole arm isn't used. (Mou yuk jong.)You've got 700 plus posts. Do you ever train?

[kungfu cowboy]

Train? :confused:

[kungfu cowboy]

I thought this was like Dungeons & Dragons, and this is my character. :(

[nathangatling]

...too funny, you keep rolling ones.

Chum Kil. Sifu Cheung has taught Chum Kiu the same since he first came to the States. I have the tapes. We're sitting here watching the tapes right now laughing at the statements some of you guys make. The movement after the first in SLT is called, Lau Sao. And the Tan Sao is done with the bend of the wrist level to the tip of your nose. Try it on the dummy. I've studied many different versions on WC. Some with principles I don't agree with. But I never speak badly of my fellow WChunners. Everyone has their preferences. You guys need to be more like men not women. Gossip is for B-t-hes.

The movement after the first punch in SLT is called lau sao, (slipping hand). You must disengage the centerline to execute it. Heun sao is done after the fook sao.

[chi-kwai]

I find your reply comical. I don't wish to be inflamatory, but here you see a cross section of almost every lineage in wing chun essentially saying "I have never seen a 'lau sao' in sil nim tao". Even students of your are saying this and yet, you laugh.

I am not saying this isn't how it was taught to you, nor am I even saying this is wrong. I would just be more careful when choosing your words. More often than not people laugh at that which they do not understand. :p

--
chi kwai

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

Wing Chun lineages are very diverse and there are
bound to be differences in the hand, dummy, and weapon forms.

Anything different from what you study will surprise you because it is different from what you are used to, but try to be humble and respectful, and try to
avoid making hasty and arrogant judgements.

Anyone of us with any fighting experience knows that it all comes down to "Are you impressive in applying your wing chun in a real fight against a great opponent?"

If no, then be quiet. If yes, then you probably have a right to an opinion.

So quit nitpicking and train hard; and respect your wing chun siblings and cousins!

If you need to pick on a style, pick on something other than Wing Chun!

And for the person who said that the Yuen Sao in
William Cheung's SLT is "flowery", relax, flowery stuff is what Jackie Chan
does in the movies.

;)

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

You've got a good point. Why should we be bickering with each other. And as for the person that said I should use the right terminolgy. Please go to the Vingtsun museum (sp)? and order the tape of the last seminar GM Cheung held at Benny Meng's. On the tape he explains the lau sao. He even jokes about the meaning of lau sao(slipping hand) by using an analogy of someone slipping out the back door of a married women's house. Once you see the tape an apology would be in order.
All the best

[dre_doggX]

I have seen several wing chun forms out of books and video clips.

I guess many master change there forms.
you probably arleady seen this before. but your not going to believe the wing chun from the photos of this site: www.shaolinwingchun.com (http://www.shaolinwingchun.com)

to different Sil Lum taos

here is another one by Austine Fong
at www.windycitywingchun.com. (http://www.windycitywingchun.com.)

and here is the one that was posted earlier
:http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp

Andre Lashley

[nathangatling]

Wing Chun Kwoon has added an explanation video for the lau sao, it's at the bottom of the page.
Hmmmm...interesting!!

Wing Chun Kwoon - video (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp)

[hunt1]

Interesting because this and almost every other example of TWC is performed at a long range and the opponants punch has no chance at all of hitting the target.Wonder how techniques work if opponanat is cloae say at a distance where the punchung arm would be at or past the back of the head if arm straight.Just a thought since not all fights begin at a comfortable non contact distance.

[Spectre]

Instead of just sitting here criticizing how one lineage performs the SLT, why not ask one of the individuals whether or not a technique in question is working for them?

Do any of you practice or train in Wing Chun so that you look just like the next practitioner or are you training to defend yourself? I know that in a fight I am not thinking, "Do I look as pretty as so and so when I perform this move?", I am ending the fight as quickly as possible.

At some point we should all be taking our Wing Chun and making it our own regardless. Keep asking yourself...Is this working for me? Will this work in a real life situation?

Remember - Just because a technique works well for me this does not automatically mean a technique will work for you.

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[davy]

Spectre, I tried to ask some explanations about techniques that were performed differently...
Indeed, on the forum "I taped myself doing slt", I asked about Martial Joe's Gum Sao, but never get a reply... Ouuups yes I did get one but a answer that was kind of aggressive...
I'm now fed up with all that martial stuff discussions, and the "Mine is bigger than your" thing... Many Wing Chun pratictionners just forget that Yip Man sifu learned Wing Chun from two different sifu whose styles were different...

[vingtsunstudent]

frankly i am to bewildered to comment on the videos but i have to ask about the lao sao?
do you perform this movement in chi sao?
if so, don't you get hit every time you disengage from your partners arms or haven't you guys heard of continuos foward force.
vts

[Juan Alvarez]

The main problem here is that people try to interpret mouvements trough what they know in their different lineages. It's like taking sentences out of their context, they don't make any sense or do not mean what they were supposed to mean. What I can't understand is why people can't accept that differnt lineages go through different developments in their part of History and their part of the world. Why is it inconceavable that some mouvement, added or not, do work in the context of the lineage where it was developped. What I can't understand also is, if martial arts helps develop the human being to its completeness, why do people that post here and claim they are martial artists are so narrow-minded!i

[davy]

The last post is a really good oneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :D :D :D