Training to old age

[YongChun]

One thing that inspired my martial arts career was some of the stories of people in their 80's who were still doing martial arts. Who we call the greats in martial arts tended to just train in their chosen arts.

These people include Aikido's Uyeshiba, Judo's Jigoro Kano, Wing Chun's Yip Man, Karate's Funakoshi, Tai Chi's Yang Cheng Fu, Hung style's Wong Fei Hung , Balintawak's Ancio Bacon, Gracie's Helio Gracie etc.

To me what these people did are ideals for martial art. They kept it up until the day they died. When I read about Thai boxers and Western boxers, they seem to hang up the gloves at a relatively early age and after that never do much of anything in the way of fighting again. I wonder if today's UFC/Pride/K1 fighters will have the desire to keep doing that to old

[todi laugin]

If you notice those who continue with their martial arts in to the venerable years they tend to not be so venerable, in thought, in action, in speech and with their martial arts. I want to be that way, so I can see things with greater knowledge and wisdom.

[sihing]

They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won't be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse....


James

[anerlich]

Helio's not dead yet, Ray. Long may he live.

I remember seeing a Muay Thai doco with a former fighter who was in his 60's at the time - he was still training and could still do head high kicks on the bags that hurt me on the other side of the TV screen.

You don't see many old boxers in the gym, you still see a fair few who are trainers, referees, etc. I remember seeing a doco on an ex boxer in his 60's who had his own home gym setup, with a special rig for his heavy bag so it would move back and forth and he'd have to chase it.

The wrestling coach at Machado BJJ HQ in Melbourne AUS was getting on the mat and terrorising his much younger students well into his seventies, he only stopped after his tragic death in a car accident.

There aren't many sexagenarians in the ring, but then there are very few sportsmen who compete at an elite level outside the ring either. But to say older people in these sports no longer are involved or active within the sports is incorrect.

[YongChun]

My mistake, I knew he wasn't dead, just wrong wording.

My point was that maybe some arts are easier to keep up forever than others. One of my students finally had to pack in Judo because of injuries. So he found the Wing Chun training although not as exciting to him, a suitable substitute where he could still have some competition. Chi sau is kind of like a standup Judo for him I think.

[anerlich]

That's great.

I hope to be still active in MA after retirement myself, and somehow I don't think it will be in competitive Vale Tudo or kickboxing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

one of my judo coaches is 75. He does it for the enjoyment. He loves judo and he loves to teach. He's on the may on a regular basis as well.

I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill

on a competitive level, no, they won't be. that doesn't mean that will not still be training, be referess, be coaches, etc. If WC were a highly competitive event, you would see similar breakdown.

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

**Why does any athlete continue his activity into old age? To prove something? No, for the same reason they became involved in it in the first place -- because they enjoy it. They like surfing or mountain climbing or fighting or whatever. The champions/best of any activity do it because they love it and it becomes a huge part of their lives.

I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won't be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse....

**More mythic nonsense.

Regards,

Terence

[sihing]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**More mythic nonsense.

Excuse me? Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing. WC isn't primarily based on this, but yes it does come in handy. I tell new students that they all ready have enough speed and strength to make it all work, they just lack the coordination. As long as one does not have a physical disability and is in possession of average strength levels, then they can make it work for them easier than the other MA out there. But guess what happens, as one begins to practice they do develop more power and speed, their neural pathways are developed and their muscles learn to relax in the execution of techniques, there by they develop speed and more strength. You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun's greatest strength is that it is a "SKILL" based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art. Obviously if someone quit practicing and gave it up completely they would not improve with age, but they would not lose it all either, skills deteriorate slower. Its not that I think most fighting arts or artists do not possess skill either, but it's the conditioning that makes those arts work, and there is nothing wrong with that, its great to be in good shape, problem is not everyone can do this or wants to do this, so then what. Do these people have no options in the MA?

James

[old jong]

You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun's greatest strength is that it is a "SKILL" based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art.

I agree completely on this. Just ad the principle of not going against the opponent force and it becomes very powerful. It is not the only way but you choose it or not!

[stonecrusher69]

Good post....

[TenTigers]

has anyone ever seen, or touched hands with Duncan Leong? He is well into his 60's and can throw down. If you do not develop your strength, power, flexibility and skill in your youth, you will have nothing left when you are old. There are plenty of Kung-Fu guys who in their later years, because of their consistancty of training are in superb shape, and maintain their skill level. Chang Dung Chen, comes to mind also. I was recently at a gathering of Judo and Jiu-Jitsu (Japanese) masters, and each and every one of them was a greybeard. These guys had flawless technique. They moved with effortless grace and a precision of movement that was truly a sight to behold. And they can cause real, unadulterated PAIN, with ease. Ever been on the receiving end of Wally Jay's Small circle technique?

[SevenStar]

sihing, that's not unique to WC. the same can be said of grappling, thai boxing, etc. power and speed are attributes that help, no doubt, but the fighter with perfect timing, distancing, etc. has in addition to the physical attributes has the greater advantage.

[sihing]

Sevenstar,
Like I said earlier all arts need some sort of skill to succeed, coordination, timing and such, but they don't apply it to the same degree as Wing Chun does. In my observations of BJJ, I did see allot of skill being applied, and the JKD arts also concentrate more on skill based concepts and techniques. Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win, hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

A perfect example is when they introduce the fighters in any MMA event on pay per view or whatever. We see the fighters stats listing their weight, reach, age and most importantly STYLE. Oh we say, this will be a great match up, TYPE A style vs TYPE B style, what a contrast we say. Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting. Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....

James

[anerlich]

Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing.

I disagree.

Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.

If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, ...


Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....

I still see Sakuraba smoking him in Pride. and there have been better kickboxers in MMA than Belfort, who still calls himself a Jiu Jitsu fighter. and a lot of Belfort's game is conditioning, same as for any athlete.

[sihing]

Originally posted by anerlich
I disagree.
Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.
If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, ...

Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result. Whereas Ali was a more "Skilled" based boxer, he lasted much longer than both of these fighters and had more wars than both. Now considered the best of all time by most. Yes, he did need conditioning just for the fact that he was competing professionally and with other conditioned athletes.

I agree, with two equally skilled WC practitioners the one with either the speed or strength advantage will usually win, this is about the only time you have to worry about the other guys
speed and strength...

James

[anerlich]

I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

I attended Cunningham's fight against Sakad Petchindee (sp) in '91. He was an MT champ. Is that the fight you are talking about?

I've always admired Sugarfoot, and he won convincingly ... though it was well known at the time that the MT guy had a lot of problems meeting weight, not that means much.

Oh yeah, Pete C didn't do WC either ... what a loser huh .. if he had he could still be fighting now, couldn't he!

Though Rick Spain fought an exhibition match will Bill Wallace at the same event and knocked Bill over ... ABSOLUTE PROOF that WC ROOLZ :p

[sihing]

Anerlich,
I can't recall exactly who Pete was fighting, it was on TSN, the national sports channel here in Canada and I just happened to catch it on TV. I'm not even sure where the fight was taking place from.

I met Bill Wallace once in Thunder Bay Ontario, back in 94 or 95'(I'm loosy with dates), he was doing a seminar there and a kickboxing exibition on the Saturday night, he fought a 3 rounder with the local champ to which he demolished. I didn't spar with him but we were doing a demo there and one of my students was photographing everything for the seminar host and I got a shot of the two of us doing the splits, nose to nose. Right when the picture was taken, at that moment, Bill put his hands around my butt and pulled it in tight, lol, it looks like we are hugging one another in that picture....He's a funny guy.

James

[Vajramusti]

Sihing sez:Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Considerable over simplification - above- IMO.Re.- Power and speed-
many different kinds of power and speed exist in activities. Roy Jones has power too (several one punch knockouts) and Tyson has speed- his outside to inside uppercuts have plenty of speed
and he one of the few who can double hook with his power hand..

Specifics of conditioning matter. Jones has been moving up and down in weight-pluses and minuses in doing that. Tyson (trains here in Phoenix a lot) got "in shape" for his last fight- but prior to that he was uneven in his conditioning commitments.

"Tried to rely..."? You usually have to rely on your skills.Not just an option. In additioning to conditioning- boxing is considerably a "mental" game though some underducated(formal schooling) boxers can at times sound inarticulate.

Strategy mattered in the last Jones and Tyson fights. Jones' opponent had decided from the start to play an intense and persistent close up inside game...denying Jones room.. The Tyson opponent after surviving Tyson's initial power and knowing Tyson's tiring rate-
decided to mix it close up- and was leaning on Tysonas uch as possible tiring T out fast. Then at the end Tyson when going down twisted his knee
in the end game.

And again-not to forget-the opponents have something to say about what Jones and Tyson did or didnt do.

In addition to the nature of the opposition-The mixes that one brings to the table matters- that includes both strategy and tactics in additioning to the right conditioning and power and speed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win

No, the toughest guy with the greater skill. All thai boxers train to be tough and fast - it's part of the training. The advantage is skill level.

hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

Happens all the time. I've seen several TMA who outclass their opponents skill wise get stomped in streetfights. It's just one of those things that have no guarantee.

Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting.

most of the guys are grapplers who have little striking training. Naturally the striking looks sloppy. Watch the guys who are trained strikers - lidell, cro cop, sak, in the old days, maurice smith... these guys show good striking skills.

Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....

not similar to WC, similar to boxing. had he trained in WC, he woulda been the same way. He put his techniques together like that because he was a competitve boxer. He actually thought about going pro. IMO though, he's a great mma but would've gotten eaten alive as a boxer.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
[B]Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result.

sure - in a competitive venue with other guys - younger guys who are training just as hard, if not harder. Here's the question though - with your current training and skill level, can YOU beat either of them?

[sihing]

Sevenstar,
The question never was could I BEAT them...I'm not a competitive fighter and I've stated many times on this forum what I consider my "Fighting" level to be, my attribute lies in self-defense, and in my mind there is a difference between the two. I never began my training or continued to do so to become a prized fighter, but if either Roy Jones or Mike Tyson was going to hurt anyone in my family or loved ones then I wouldn't really care about what they did in their pasts, although I would use every dirty trick in the book to defeat them. Boxing wise I would get destroyed quickly by these two "PROFESSIONALS" in the ring. Notice the word professional...

Vajramusti,
It’s well known why Tyson was so successful. In the beginning of his career they put him against people that they knew he could defeat, to build his confidence. The outcome was by the time he stepped into the ring for the Heavy Weight Championship of the World, his opponent was psyched out by his renowned punching power, but I will admit I was impressed by his head movement and ability to put together his combinations, and yes for a heavyweight he did have speed, but not Ali speed per say. After a time at the top his c0ckiness got to him and he decided to start taking people lightly, therefore his training regimen decreased in intensity and the result was he didn't have the tools he needed to stay on top. Going to jail didn't help either. After that and his original trainer Gus D'Amato dying, he was never the same fighter, he had power, and probably always will, its natural for him, but his skills as a good boxer are gone...

As for Roy Jones JR, people would criticise him for his unorthodox boxing methods but his natural abilities got him by, and his incredible speed help tremendously too. The fighters he fought would be more worried about getting hit 5X in a second than their own strategies so they were never able to pull it off, I too would be worried if I was in the ring with him, loll. After his first defeat, as always, the mystic of him being unbeatable was gone and the fighters had more confidence with him. He's been knocked out twice now in the last year, coincidence or ???.

My whole point of using these two athletes was to show two examples of people most of us know and recognize. It's undeniable that if these fighters fought for a lifetime that their individual strategies would change due to their natural physical attributes failing them as they aged. This does not mean that they wouldn't be able to fight. If you train in anything for a prolonged period of time (like years) then you will have the ability to use it to some degree for sure, but not at the pro level that these guys are used to. Wing Chun, at least to me is much different. And I use myself as a example, I don't train nearly as much as I used to but my skill in the art is higher than it was when I received my instructors certificate years ago. How do I know this? From others observations and my own, I can see the improvement in everything. Yes my stamina is not the same, but my senses are keener and the speed of my movement is faster and more precise, and most importantly I am wiser in the art and more experienced with it in my body, therefore I move with more efficiency and effectiveness.

Allot of the reason why I believe in this so much, besides my own experiences in Wing Chun, is what I was told by my Sifu all my years of training. Sifu has gone through the training like a mad man syndrome much more than I. Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training, I will say that he basically took what the best of the best in the MA/Fighting arts were doing in that era and doubled all of it, meaning 12 to 14hr training days, for years at a time. After doing this and sustaining some minor injuries and exposure/training in the WC system, both WSL and Cheung versions, he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.


James

[Vajramusti]

Interjected comments in brackets on parts of sihings post:

Vajramusti,
It’s well known why Tyson was so successful. In the beginning of his career they put him against people that they knew he could defeat, to build his confidence.
((Not peculiar to Tyson's case. All good managers do that. But not all are successful.))

The outcome was by the time he stepped into the ring for the Heavy Weight Championship of the World, his opponent was psyched out by his renowned punching power,

((Ernie Shavers was/is pne of the hardest hitters ever. He never became the undisputed champion))

but I will admit I was impressed by his head movement and ability to put together his combinations, and yes for a heavyweight he did have speed, but not Ali speed per say.

((I have nothing but admiration for Ali- but Tyson was no slouch on speed. Because of his muscular appaearnce- it is easy to underestimate his speed. He wasa fairly short armed heavyweight- but his speed was deceptive ))

After a time at the top his c0ckiness got to him and he decided to start taking people lightly, therefore his training regimen decreased in intensity and the result was he didn't have the tools he needed to stay on top.

((In part. He was/ is a small heavyweight. Size matters(more so in boxing and wrestling)- Buster Douglas, Lennox Lewis- towered over him.))

Going to jail didn't help either.

((he is hardlya model human being- but neither is/was Mayorga, Mayweather, Corrales, Duran, Graziano etc. Diogenes would have a difficult night with his lamp looking for moral greatness in competitive professional or quasi professional sports.))

After that and his original trainer Gus D'Amato dying, he was never the same fighter, he had power, and probably always will, its natural for him, but his skills as a good boxer are gone...

((Not just DAmato- he walked away from kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas- and fell for cronies. Plus- a key is- his legs are gone and in boxing dem are important))

As for Roy Jones JR, people would criticise him for his unorthodox boxing methods but his natural abilities got him by,

((What? Every top notch boxer has his unique approach. You dont get to the top witha cookie cutter. Not just natural abilities- Jones is a very smart boxer. Moving his weight--- welter, middle, light heavy, heavy then back down can cause some problems.
But credit is due to his two winning opponents. Styles make differences. Tarver is a southpaw- Jones has had pproblems with southpaws and his last opponent crowded him on the inside
incessabtly and
trained for it. Jones should retire- not because he is over the hill- but to save his head for the future. He has enough money.
BTW his record is better than the MMA folks people talk about Sakuraba, Coleman, Smith- fame is fleeting))

My whole point of using these two athletes was to show two examples of people most of us know and recognize. It's undeniable that if these fighters fought for a lifetime that their individual strategies would change due to their natural physical attributes failing them as they aged. This does not mean that they wouldn't be able to fight. If you train in anything for a prolonged period of time (like years) then you will have the ability to use it to some degree for sure, but not at the pro level that these guys are used to. Wing Chun, at least to me is much different. And I use myself as a example, I don't train nearly as much as I used to but my skill in the art is higher than it was when I received my instructors certificate years ago. How do I know this? From others observations and my own, I can see the improvement in everything. Yes my stamina is not the same, but my senses are keener and the speed of my movement is faster and more precise, and most importantly I am wiser in the art and more experienced with it in my body, therefore I move with more efficiency and effectiveness.

((Smart people adjust to the seasons in any activity. But I agree with you that the wing chun learning curve is a long one- it starts slower than some sports- but the benfits last longer.))

Allot of the reason why I believe in this so much, besides my own experiences in Wing Chun, is what I was told by my Sifu all my years of training. Sifu has gone through the training like a mad man syndrome much more than I. Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training, I will say that he basically took what the best of the best in the MA/Fighting arts were doing in that era and doubled all of it, meaning 12 to 14hr training days, for years at a time. After doing this and sustaining some minor injuries and exposure/training in the WC system, both WSL and Cheung versions, he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.

(( I will stay away from sifu sez....))

[sihing]

Thanks for your responses Joy, except I take issue with the Sifu seez stuff. Listen, if you are looking to achieve a goal in any endeavor then a mentor is one of the first things you should do to gain advice and guidance. Even the Bible talks about finding the wise one in the community to learn and get advice from. Sifu has been this for me exactly and more. At present date he has approximately 27yrs more experience than I in the MA, so why would I not listen to what the man has to say and take it as a form of truth? They say experience is the best teacher, wrong! Someone else's experience is the best teacher first because he/she can show you how to reach the goal faster, and avoid the mistakes along the way, then after you gain some experience yourself you can combine the two. I have no problem saying SIFU SAYS, on this forum or to anyone listening else where.

James

[anerlich]

he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.

Well that's great, but I think older guys in a wide range of martial arts, like Helio Gracie (not many WC greats of the past lived to his age), the 70 year old wrestler I talked about earlier, Gogen Yamaguchi, etc. would have told you the same thing about their arts. You seem intent on denying the possibility that any art other than WC has the attributes that you discuss, when it just ain't true.

My first instructor, David Crook, who's been around longer than Brain Lewadny and by the sound of things trained just as hard, was the son of a British Army boxing champion. His Dad got mugged in London aged 80+ by two guys in their twenties, one of whom he KO'd and the other he chased into a public toilet where the would be mugger locked himself in a cubicle and refused to come out until the cops arrived. If you think old boxers can't fight, and if you think boxers don't understand good body mechanics and efficiency, you are dead wrong.


Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training

Yeah, right, you showed amazing self restraint :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Sevenstar,
The question never was could I BEAT them...I'm not a competitive fighter and I've stated many times on this forum what I consider my "Fighting" level to be, my attribute lies in self-defense, and in my mind there is a difference between the two. I never began my training or continued to do so to become a prized fighter, but if either Roy Jones or Mike Tyson was going to hurt anyone in my family or loved ones then I wouldn't really care about what they did in their pasts, although I would use every dirty trick in the book to defeat them. Boxing wise I would get destroyed quickly by these two "PROFESSIONALS" in the ring. Notice the word professional...



which is my point. People are saying that they can't box as a form of exercise and/or self defense into X age and basing on the fact that their competitive career may *or may not* be over by x age. I see a flaw there.

[Vajramusti]

Sihing sez:Thanks for your responses Joy, except I take issue with the Sifu seez stuff. Listen, if you are looking to achieve a goal in any endeavor then a mentor is one of the first things you should do to gain advice and guidance. Even the Bible talks about finding the wise one in the community to learn and get advice from. Sifu has been this for me exactly and more.

(( I have nothing but respect for my sifu in a very traditional sense.
But in conversations on forums, or apllications and understanding
I am on my own. I dont hold anyone responsible for my interpretations or misinterpretaions. Standard author's not uncommon caveat. I dont see what the issue is- difference in perspectives perhaps?)))






Seven Star sez:
People are saying that they can't box as a form of exercise and/or self defense into X age and basing on the fact that their competitive career may *or may not* be over by x age. I see a flaw there

((People? Not me. Three points-
1. If no damge to reflexes and mind and health takes place- there
can be effective carry over after comtetitive days for some.
For many others there is a sad decline- if they have competed a lot.

2. Real sports competition and learning wing chun and how to use it dont necessarily involve the same goals as Ray has pointed out several times.

3. IMO- I respect boxers and grapplers- but (note) in my opinion the depth and effective shelf life of well taught and learned wing chun is greater.
Views can vary. Opinions on forums are free.)))

[Ernie]

Wow
This thread is very entertaining

Lets see we have people discussing boxing and the longevity of boxing ,
Yet they don’t box [ with the exception of Joy ]
They have not trained with or like boxers for any given time
They have not stepped foot in a boxing gym and seen how many old boxers are still training to just stay in shape
Funny opinions with no first hand facts


I know a lot of 50 plus boxers that never had big carriers or are professionals in other carriers and boxing/kickboxing is just a hobby or outlet .
They’re in great shape and tough as nails ,
They’re not walking around broken or with spit catchers on because of brain damage [ got to love how people jump to extreme conclusions when it suits there needs ]
How do they do this you might ask
Simple they tune down the hard core training and work lighter and smarter , if you every get brave enough to walk into a pro boxing gym you will see the professional fighters don’t go all hard core either they hit light and work on timing being relaxed improving there ‘’ dare I say it ‘’ *skill*
These guys are like thoroughbreds they can’t afforded injuries there lives depend on being in good shape , sure when there getting ready for a fight and in the fight they go all out , but so would you.

But the prep work , the training can be done for as long as you like ,
Boxing is not pounding a heavy bag with all your might then jumping in a ring and getting your head knocked around , sure it can be for the silly people out there .
But there is a lot more non-hard impact training focus mitts , road work , speed and double end bag , light sparring to cultivate timing , proper mechanics to cultivate power release , sensitivity to learn to roll shots , the list goes on and on


I see more Doctors , lawyers , business men and woman 40 and up doing boxing and kick boxing then in any martial art , and they look and feel great , the gym I trained at for 5 years was based on executive boxing and kick boxing , not tae bo junk but full boxing set up , ring time bag work solo training and sparring , they hired professional fighters to come in and train people , sure it was pricey but man that place was and still is packed

Even the Thai camp that was there was packed with 40,50 and 60 year olds , hell they were the only ones that could afforded it !
Just to show an example of interest they also offered tai chi and yoga

The tai chi class was dead

The yoga and Pilates classes did well

So this little argument about training when you’re old and there actually being lines drawn in the sand just bust me up .


The only thing you need to do is train smart , be honest with what you can or can not do and respect your body

you can train in what ever you like maintain health and skill for your entire life

[Vajramusti]

Ernie sez:

The only thing you need to do is train smart , be honest with what you can or can not do and respect your body

you can train in what ever you like maintain health and skill for your entire life
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with that-
but my personal choice is wing chun- you discover new tool boxes all the time. Wing chun is not limited to a single tool box.

[Ernie]

Joy I agree

but this is also true with boxing , kick boxing what ever , the more you do something the better at it you get and the more you learn about it ,

sure I’m with you on the wing Chun idea

but this could be any art

that's why I find it funny when people use different training systems to try and compare and knock one over the other if they have not spent the time learning all there is about the other

I have ran into enough people from different arts that are just as excited about what they do and are learning and evolving all the time

personally I have enough trust in myself and what I do that there is no need to compare or try and tear down some one else’s art
to make mine look better

that being said I am hard on my fellow wing Chun people , because they seem to drift so far from reality

this thread for example
:D

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
Simple they tune down the hard core training and work lighter and smarter , if you every get brave enough to walk into a pro boxing gym you will see the professional fighters don’t go all hard core either they hit light and work on timing being relaxed improving there ‘’ dare I say it ‘’ *skill*
These guys are like thoroughbreds they can’t afforded injuries there lives depend on being in good shape , sure when there getting ready for a fight and in the fight they go all out , but so would you.

But the prep work , the training can be done for as long as you like ,
Boxing is not pounding a heavy bag with all your might then jumping in a ring and getting your head knocked around , sure it can be for the silly people out there .

That's why some people who have done Wing Chun most of their life or have been very competitive in other martial arts like Judo, are happy later with just forms, drills, chi sau and light sparring. When they were young, their bodies could take a lot of abuse and healing was quicker but after a certain age it seems to take forever to heal anything. And so a more sensible toned down way to train is just plain smart.

However some of the threads by say Terrence (I could be mistaken - reading him wrong?) seem to say that unless you are training to take someone's head off in the gym then that training is completely useless and has nothing to do with martial arts or realistic self defense. Some people just don't agree with that and so we spin around in circles all day long getting nowhere and talking about very little in Wing Chun. Almost every thread, no matter the topic, can be answered by "have you proved it in the ring against real fighters? If not, then you have nothing to say."

For me it's simple. If your body can take it and if you are the right age then go for it, mix it up with Thai boxers, BJJ or anyone. Later on you have to tone it down and at that time there is plenty of stuff to work on for your body and mind in the Wing Chun system.

[sihing]

I agree that boxing, and especially kickboxing due to the leg involvement is a great way to stay in shape, probably one of the best ways, I've never said otherwise, its just for practical purposes, I believe the practitioners of boxing lose more effectiveness as they age because of the arts reliance on speed and strength attributes, as compared to WC. I guess if we were a traditional WC school in the strict sense there would be no conditioning/cardio classes, but we do have them and they are very popular as they exercise every part of your body, the only difference is we use only WC punches in the routines which includes bag work, focus mitt work, calisthenics, stretching, with high kicks practiced in a more traditional form (meaning not strict WC form). People love what it has done for them and swear by the results of workouts such as these.

I think one of the problems in the WC world is that people put too much faith in the total effectiveness of the art and become lazy physically and think oh, I never have to do stuff like kickboxing type workouts because my technique is so perfect. In training and learning the art you have to do these things to train your body to fight through and continue to go on when you don't really feel like it. You have to supplement this type of training with the specific skill training drills and practices that we have to complete the process. I do believe though that you don't always have to continue in that way throughout your training career, once it is there and you have the skill you will be able to maintain it allot easier, stamina will deteriorate but the other attributes won't.

James

[Ernie]

Well I’m from the 10%, 90% camp
10% hardcore , this can be hard sparring or hardcoreing a training or conditioning system , were you push and test yourself beyond the comfort zone
90% light training , sensitivity , timing , solo stuff , body mechanic , and weapons

the build up from the light to the hard should be progressive , intensity in increments
the goal is to have finesse during the hard session , not just have a sloppy emotional wrestling match

in the end you should be able to stay *light* when some one is going all out
this would equate to functional skill


of course you could go 50/50 and learn a lot faster but you would pay a physical price [ I’m sitting here with a torn bicep and golf ball lumps on my shin from a hard training match ]

yet even in my crippled condition I can do all the wing Chun I want [ why I gravitate to WC ]
I heard James say wing chun is not about speed and strength yet all fighting is , wing chun just does it differently , strength comes from structure and position , speed comes from position , timing , and directness

You can’t move slow and weak if some one else is coming hard and fast , sure you can have great timing and be more efficient so you move at the right time with the right speed but that’s true with any art

A lot of these wing chun misconceptions are just marketing ploy’s to pack schools and tell the 90 pound weakling he can kick sand in the face of the huge body builder . and these lies go on UN tested year after year generation after generation , always quoting what the next man can do not what you can honestly do

This stuff makes me sad

Thus the 10% hardcore this keeps me honest , those with out any hardcore tend to drift into the land of disillusion and deceit

Now what one perceives as hardcore may vary and there will come a time when your spirit may no longer even what to deal with that , so you must just be honest and admit it , still train to be happy but no longer form opinions on fighting since you have pulled yourself out of that environment
But one can still offer information on teaching and training from the wisdom and experience they have gained


I honestly feel it’s each generations job to update and prove the training system , as does Gary he told me he did his job fighting in his time and now teaching and developing the system in his older years based on his experience , but it’s my job to take it further no just leach of his information and sit on my butt and pretend his achievements were my own .

This places the responsibility on the next generation and keeps things honest

[sihing]

Originally posted by YongChun
That's why some people who have done Wing Chun most of their life or have been very competitive in other martial arts like Judo, are happy later with just forms, drills, chi sau and light sparring. When they were young, their bodies could take a lot of abuse and healing was quicker but after a certain age it seems to take forever to heal anything. And so a more sensible toned down way to train is just plain smart.

However some of the threads by say Terrence (I could be mistaken - reading him wrong?) seem to say that unless you are training to take someone's head off in the gym then that training is completely useless and has nothing to do with martial arts or realistic self defense. Some people just don't agree with that and so we spin around in circles all day long getting nowhere and talking about very little in Wing Chun. Almost every thread, no matter the topic, can be answered by "have you proved it in the ring against real fighters? If not, then you have nothing to say."

For me it's simple. If your body can take it and if you are the right age then go for it, mix it up with Thai boxers, BJJ or anyone. Later on you have to tone it down and at that time there is plenty of stuff to work on for your body and mind in the Wing Chun system.

I agree with you Ray here. I was just thinking of Terence's response when Ernie mentioned that the older retired boxers "Toned" down their training routines. So, I guess from my interpretation of Terence's opinions also, he would have to assume that means these gentlemen can't fight anymore, because they don't fight, right? Awhile back on this forum I made a statement about boxers and how they don't spar that much, and then all of a sudden I got flamed for it and people coming back saying that boxers fight and spar all the time full out. Now we are hearing something different?? Go figure. I don't know any boxers personally but just using simple logic, do you think it would be wise to actually go out and spar full out on a daily basis? Wouldn't the chance of getting hurt, even by accident, be higher? Cuts, sprains, pulls, etc. Yes, going in the ring and sparring lightly is fine, to work on the timing and just moving around with the other guy to gauge distance and shadow spar per say, would be a smarter thing to do for the majority of the weekly schedule, sparring full out maybe a couple of times. Jeez, even the "unbeatables" like Foremen and Tyson had accidental hits during all out sparring sessions forcing the fights to be delayed.

Ernie
Good post, and I agree with lots of what you said, 90% 10% sounds like a great starting point and some may tweak it a bit depending on their own individual goals. As for the speed and strength thing, you do need this, and yes you can't fight a person going full out using neither of these two attributes, but like you mentioned WC interpretation of it is different for the reasons you wrote in your post. My interpretation of the spirit of WC is this, when the opening is there or the fight is on, do whatever you do as quickly & powerfully as possible. You can't punch slowly after the trap or technique is applied to adhere to the simultaneous attack/defense philosophy, the opening will be gone in less than a half second. Everything is like this in WC, combined with non-telegraphic movement that is very short and the opponent shouldn't even have the opportunity to see it coming. Things like this make WC so effective, but yes I too see it in class at times with students posing and analyzing every move they make, their timing is way off and they end up having little faith in the concept being taught because they do not understand at times the basic idea of putting the proper spirit behind it all.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
That's why some people who have done Wing Chun most of their life or have been very competitive in other martial arts like Judo, are happy later with just forms, drills, chi sau and light sparring. When they were young, their bodies could take a lot of abuse and healing was quicker but after a certain age it seems to take forever to heal anything. And so a more sensible toned down way to train is just plain smart.

However some of the threads by say Terrence (I could be mistaken - reading him wrong?) seem to say that unless you are training to take someone's head off in the gym then that training is completely useless and has nothing to do with martial arts or realistic self defense. Some people just don't agree with that and so we spin around in circles all day long getting nowhere and talking about very little in Wing Chun. Almost every thread, no matter the topic, can be answered by "have you proved it in the ring against real fighters? If not, then you have nothing to say."

For me it's simple. If your body can take it and if you are the right age then go for it, mix it up with Thai boxers, BJJ or anyone. Later on you have to tone it down and at that time there is plenty of stuff to work on for your body and mind in the Wing Chun system.

I don't think that's what it is (but I can't speak for terence). I think the general sentiment is that at some point in a MAs time, he needs to test himself. If you don't, then you are not really sure what you are capable of. Also, there are lessons learned from contact training

As far as toning it down at an old age, there is plenty to work on in sport arts too. that is not unique to WC. As I've said several times, one of my judo coaches is 75. I know someone who fought full contact to celebrate their 50th b-day. Helio has already been mentioned also. There is plenty to do in bjj, judo, thai, etc. - enough to last a lifetime.

[black and blue]

IMO you are absolutely correct Ernie - training to progress yourself and your art.

A real problem in WCK is that many have the feeling the art is perfect. Perfectly complete, perfect in the old training methods, perfect in its stories of Yip Man 'supposedly' kicking a.rse, blah blah blah.

No testing, no questioning, lots of theoretical clap-trap, based largely on the Sifu-says mentality.

The question is where will Wing Chun be in 20 years time?

[sihing]

Sevenstar,
Terence has often stated that if you don't fight you can't fight, on a continous basis. And when someone says they fight, then Terence usually comes back with the line "Yeah but who? What caliber of opponent was it" or something along that line. All of us here realize that if you never test your skills you may not have them when needed and you will not learn the art to a completion.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ernie
I heard James say wing chun is not about speed and strength yet all fighting is , wing chun just does it differently , strength comes from structure and position , speed comes from position , timing , and directness


are you saying you don't think this also applies to boxing?

[sihing]

I know I'm not Ernie, but I would like to take a stab at answering this one also...Boxing does use all these things, structure, timing, distancing and positioning, but so differently than WC. Wing Chun in essence does not require as much physical speed from its practitioners as compared to most MA/Fighting arts due to its fast structure. For example, WC's Man-sao/Wu-sao structure in guard vs most boxing type guards. Usually both advise to keep the hands up, correct? In my WC our lead Man-sao is approx. 3/4 of the way out extended, with the fingers nose height, forearm/inner elbow down centerline. Most boxers do not have their lead hand that far out. So if we were to line up facing one another whose lead hand would be closer to each other's face/nose? WC's lead hand should be closer, therefore it has less distance to travel to reach its target, NOSE. Also, WC practitioners are more adapt to generating power with out a retraction of the hand, using forward body movement (just think about moving any heavy object with your body from one point to another, you wouldn't go to the side of it and push it with your arm only, you would get down the center of it with your hands close to your center and push from there), combine this with the opponents own forward momentum and you increase the power of the punch. This example alone shows the efficient use of the body and the use of proper positioning of the practitioner in relation to the opponent and the practitioners own body structure, forcing efficient movement from the start.

Also, the non twisting hip/shoulder concept of WC allows us to move and attack at the same time, therefore pursuit and retreat can be done simultaneously with chain punches and with power. Boxers have a hard time chasing and attacking with their power punches because they use a twist or rotating hip/shoulder concept to generate power, this requires more time to set up and is less efficient than the WC way. And you almost never see a boxer retreat and punching at the same time.

James

[Vajramusti]

Sihing sez:
In my WC our lead Man-sao is approx. 3/4 of the way out extended, with the fingers nose height, forearm/inner elbow down centerline. Most boxers do not have their lead hand that far out. So if we were to line up facing one another whose lead hand would be closer to each other's face/nose?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WC schools vary on the man sao!!!

[old jong]

The key factors for any type of martial art (boxing included!)are "body unity and relaxation" You relax and use your body mass with technique.Never use your arm alone to strike,grab or whatever.This makes you save energy and deliver power a lot better.This also help many to effectively practice their arts even at any ages,provided the body was not too much damaged in rough competitions in the "prime" period!...;)
I believe that most arts can be very good in effectiveness and safe for prolonged practice with some common sense.It is always a question of personal tastes.This is also a question of learning with the proper instructor for you.

[black and blue]

Joy,

Having watch a tape of Augustine Fong, didn't he have his Man Sau hand much lower than described above? If I remember correctly his was around sternum height.

[Vajramusti]

B &B- he can have his man sao hand anywhere he wishes-
depending on who, what, when and how.
Asking hand is a function not a static pose.

[black and blue]

Sure - I mean do you have a reference point for training it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
In my WC our lead Man-sao is approx. 3/4 of the way out extended, with the fingers nose height, forearm/inner elbow down centerline. Most boxers do not have their lead hand that far out. So if we were to line up facing one another whose lead hand would be closer to each other's face/nose? WC's lead hand should be closer, therefore it has less distance to travel to reach its target, NOSE. Also, WC practitioners are more adapt to generating power with out a retraction of the hand, using forward body movement (just think about moving any heavy object with your body from one point to another, you wouldn't go to the side of it and push it with your arm only, you would get down the center of it with your hands close to your center and push from there), combine this with the opponents own forward momentum and you increase the power of the punch. This example alone shows the efficient use of the body and the use of proper positioning of the practitioner in relation to the opponent and the practitioners own body structure, forcing efficient movement from the start.

in thaiboxing, we are taught both variations of the guard that you describe. Having the lead hand out further allows me to parry a strike before it is able to get too deep and also, as you stated, is closer to my opponent. There is a tradeoff however, as there is less power in your strike. as for power not dependent on retracting the hand, don't you WANT to retract it quickly? Not doing so gives them a bridge to use to get in on you, doesn't it? the jab is usually done in conjunction with wither a step or lunge - the whole body is behind it - it's not an arm push.

Also, the non twisting hip/shoulder concept of WC allows us to move and attack at the same time, therefore pursuit and retreat can be done simultaneously with chain punches and with power. Boxers have a hard time chasing and attacking with their power punches because they use a twist or rotating hip/shoulder concept to generate power, this requires more time to set up and is less efficient than the WC way. And you almost never see a boxer retreat and punching at the same time.

I think it's personal preference, not style. we are taught to retreat and punch. The this is, boxers are generally taught not to retreat. you want to control the center of the ring. If he wante to advance or circle, you cut him off, but do not retreat. sidestep, but do not retreat. when you are in close though, throwing hooks, uppercuts, etc and want to get back out to a longer range, retreat out and jab as you do so. In terms of advancing, you are correct - it's hard to advance with a cross. you advance with jabs. When you are in range, sit into the cross.

[sihing]

Quote :Sevenstar
"There is a tradeoff however, as there is less power in your strike. as for power not dependent on retracting the hand, don't you WANT to retract it quickly? Not doing so gives them a bridge to use to get in on you, doesn't it? the jab is usually done in conjunction with wither a step or lunge - the whole body is behind it - it's not an arm push."

Yes there is less power in the strike, mostly though for beginners, but the amount of strikes one can administer is the same period of time is more in the WC system than most boxing fighting arts. When the jab is thrown, how does the boxer throw the other punch? Does he have to rotate his hips and shoulders? Usually they do, and when this happens you cannot punch as fast and move as well with as many punch as the WC practitioner can, because we are more square to the opponent, but not totally square. The punch is not an arm punch as the whole body would be moving forward behind it. As for retraction what I meant was that at the moment the opening is seen I would not retract my arm to punch, but launch it from where it is(the 1" punch), then retract is very quickily so the chain punch can be applied, anywhere from 6 to 9 in one second. If contact is made with the opponents limbs then at this stage the bridge would be interpreted for what it represents (energy, structure) and dealt with immediately, through chi-sao training. Forward intention is paramount at this stage as this makes it more difficult for the opponent to advance closer or attack with either hand.

Joy,
In my system our Man/Wu sao is static, but not like a statue static. I've seen some of Sift Fong's video's and I've always thought his guard was too low, but this is just an personal opinion and taken from my own training and experience, he's free to do whatever he likes. In our guard, once the positioning with the opponent is perfectly aligned (opponents foot and knee down center of side neutral stance, guard pointed down center of persons body dividing it in half), the opponent can throw any punch towards the upper gate and it will be defended with very little movement of the limbs (this is hard to describe in written form). Now perfect alignment is not always guaranteed yes, but the closer to perfect structure and defense it is the better it will be when things are not perfect, that is even if you get to have a guard up in the first place.


James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
When the jab is thrown, how does the boxer throw the other punch? Does he have to rotate his hips and shoulders?

depends on what is thrown next. if it is another jab, then no. jabs can come in rapid succession. If it is a hook off the lead hand, yes, there will be some hip turn. If the next blow is a cross, then yes, there will be hip turn. The hip turn always leaves you in position to follow up with then next strike however.

As for retraction what I meant was that at the moment the opening is seen I would not retract my arm to punch, but launch it from where it is(the 1" punch), then retract is very quickily

boxing is the same way. to wind up is telegraphic and is slower.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by SevenStar
are you saying you don't think this also applies to boxing?

The exact opposite
Boxing has all these concepts and in my mind often refined to a simpler more functional level *battle tested* if you will
But it is based more on distance and footwork since there is limits to the contact area and target area , trust me I fear a good boxer way more then any *traditionally trained* wing chun person

I still use boxers and kick boxers [Thai as well ] as a measuring stick when I spar and train , and I still keep my boxing ,Thai ,and savate tools very sharp .

[Vajramusti]

sihing sez:

Joy,
In my system our Man/Wu sao is static, but not like a statue static. I've seen some of Sift Fong's video's and I've always thought his guard was too low, but this is just an personal opinion and taken from my own training and experience, he's free to do whatever he likes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
James- his videos now over 20 years old are a fraction of what he actually does. Sometimes for development you can teach a posture and then in another context the positions can be different. BTW- I did not learn from videos. Also-BTW I dont speak for him. On his site there is a question and answer section that can clarify things sometimes...if the questions are clear enough.

But in actual applications- the dynamics of applying man sao and bai jong can be quite different.

When the front hand is way out in the front- as in some systems- the lead hand punch could be weaker

[Enforcer-]

the tai chi people argue that their style is superior based on the fact that at old age you can still practise it and improve in it (although you can't fight with it so you only improve health with it).

Seriously one guy was argueing with me on emptyflower once (I think it was Bai he or maybe malak) that IMA is superior to boxing because boxers are young and get washed up by a young age while in old age ima people still practise, feel healthy, and can improve. He also mentioned guys like Vanderlei SIlva and other pros switching to tai chi because their styles wont cut it anymore.

[anerlich]

"IMA is superior to boxing because boxers are young and get washed up by a young age while in old age ima people still practise, feel healthy, and can improve."

Apples and oranges, I think. Not many pro boxers last into their forties, but then again as someone mentioned above plenty of older men and women do boxing training without the sparring, or with light sparring, for aerobic fitness. lot of older guys/gals at my local gym.

If taiji had a professional circuit with people who were trying to strike and push other for real, I'm pretty sure you'd find that was a young person's game too.

There is a guy on a number of MMA forums called Shooter who claims to fight MMA with his entire fighting style based at some level, on taiji. This guy seems to know what he's talking about and I respect him, but even so, I doubt he'll be jumping in the ring at 60, much more likely to be doing the form and light push hands with the other grandparents.

I would be interesting to see how well your typical taiji guy in his 60's/70's fared against an ex pro boxer, even ex am, of equivalent age if they started fighting in the surgical supply store over the last Zimmer frame - I think my money would still be on the ex boxer. Same with the boxer vs an old WC guy, unless the WC guy had actually fought a few times.

"He also mentioned guys like Vanderlei SIlva and other pros switching to tai chi because their styles wont cut it anymore."

First I've heard of it, and can find nothing linking Vanderlei and taiji on Google. And since when did "The Axe Murderer'"s style stop cutting it? Not recently. Sounds most unlikely.

I realise you're quoting what others said, not necessarily agreeing with them.

[Simon]

Originally posted by sihing
This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse....
James

Sorry I'm a bit slow on the uptake....

I'm a beginner at wing chun and I'd like to believe this BUT:

how do you measure getting better at Wing Chun?

-Chi sao/forms/drills/sparring in house
-Competition
-Street encounters?

To test if your wing chun is better than another's tai chi - do you fight in the ring? If not how? Is this statement based on anything that can be measured?

Just questions I have myself about the way Wing Chun is promoted

[Enforcer-]

There is a guy on a number of MMA forums called Shooter who claims to fight MMA with his entire fighting style based at some level, on taiji. This guy seems to know what he's talking about and I respect him, but even so, I doubt he'll be jumping in the ring at 60, much more likely to be doing the form and light push hands with the other grandparents.

he posts here too but Ive never seen any of his fight clips and I think he only fought amateur? Also he crosstraines in some grappling or claims to have invented it. And he is one of the evry few tai chi guys who actually spar.

[sihing]

Simon,

Good questions. To me, how do I measure the Wing Chun getting better with time, well it is not really about measuring it and having people judge you by it, at least that is what I think, but in my own personal experience I have found that my Wing Chun has improved over time and I am not training as much as I used to. My Sifu and Sihings are also examples of this phenomenon. Sifu always said that after a time in the art, you can just imagine and think about it and that is practicing(they say that the mind cannot recognize the difference between something vividly imagined and something that really happened). I remember watching demo's of Sifu during the early 90's and onward, his movement kept on getting better and better, each one was done with greater ease of technique and concept, and I asked if he was training allot and he said no, not at that time due to his teaching schedule. For me it is just a feeling within that one has when they become more and more comfortable with the art, and also once in a while someone else says something nice about your skills, lol.

Yes, to test your Wing Chun against someone else’s Tai Chi you would have to step into the ring per say, but once again this is not the point. I for one do not think everyday about myself constantly improving in the art or having to test it, it’s something that just comes up once in a while when you decide to notice it.


James

[Enforcer-]

you wouldn't have to step into the ring. You could do it in a private (or public) challenge match with no rules. You could also bust into their school and insult them thus provoking a challenge.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
he posts here too but Ive never seen any of his fight clips and I think he only fought amateur? Also he crosstraines in some grappling or claims to have invented it. And he is one of the evry few tai chi guys who actually spar.

he works his taiji principles on the ground. So what if he's only fought amateur? On what level have the taiji guys you're referring to fought? Even at amateur level, he can't compete at an old age. consequently, his career would be "washed up". would he then have to stop training?

[blooming lotus]

for some of us, training is as much a habit as brushing our teeth, and I've only been doing it for 20 + yrs , I can't imagine how hard that habit would be to break after 50 or 60 or 70 yrs, but I imagine, that training in whatever capacity you can manage , is how some ppl understand life and understand their day to play out.

I was watching a documentary on Deng Xiao Ping ( ex - chinese - chairman ) a few weeks back, and his thing was playing cards. He did it practicaly until the day he died, and seemed to think that as long as he was doing this, it was proof his mind was still working. I guess training is much like that and even now, no matter how bad something gets, if I can train , even a little , my body is working and I'm capable of continuing. Age would eccaberate that I assume and I look forward to being the wrinkliest gal in the gym myself ;)

[Buddy]

What crap.

[cerebus]

That it is Buddy, that it is.

[phantom]

You guys mention turning sparring intensity down when you get older. Well, how could you do that with judo? How can you throw somebody lightly?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by phantom
You guys mention turning sparring intensity down when you get older. Well, how could you do that with judo? How can you throw somebody lightly?


i would would think more with striking arts , one would lighten up as time goes by .

[old jong]

Originally posted by phantom
You guys mention turning sparring intensity down when you get older. Well, how could you do that with judo? How can you throw somebody lightly?

Older Judo guys tend to concentrate more on "ne-waza" (ground work) and the study of advanced kata.They "relearn" and finetune their art out of the hard competition environment and sometimes get even better at the real Judo witch principles include :Maximum results/minimum force.

This is not an IMO comment.I happen to have a good friend who is a 5th degree black belt in Judo and who is 54!...

BTW,The kata(s) of Judo are like the Wing Chun forms full of that kind of knowledge, out of the reach of the young badass minds reach!...;)

[Ernie]

out of the reach of the young badass minds reach



or just a way for old burn out guys to still feel good about themselves

:D :D :D


couldn't resist

[old jong]

or just a way for old burn out guys to still feel good about themselves

Forum badass rarely burn themselves!...
Couldn't resist either! ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
Forum badass rarely burn themselves!...
Couldn't resist either! ;)


always a pleasure my friend or is it mon ami :D

[old jong]

La lengua debe nunca ser una barrera entre los amigos!
(I'm sure it's full of mistakes!...) :D

[Ernie]

no problem i understood

and i also agree:)

[old jong]

Usted es mi prefered el monstruo de JKD, usted sabe?...;) ;) :D

[Ernie]

and you sir are my favorite *pretend* ;) fighter


:p :p :p :p :p

[old jong]

Let's pretend that you didn't say that!...;) :D

[Ernie]

;)

[anerlich]

Well, how could you do that with judo? How can you throw somebody lightly?

Thicker mats, maybe?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by old jong
Older Judo guys tend to concentrate more on "ne-waza" (ground work) and the study of advanced kata.They "relearn" and finetune their art out of the hard competition environment and sometimes get even better at the real Judo witch principles include :Maximum results/minimum force.

This is not an IMO comment.I happen to have a good friend who is a 5th degree black belt in Judo and who is 54!...

BTW,The kata(s) of Judo are like the Wing Chun forms full of that kind of knowledge, out of the reach of the young badass minds reach!...;)

54 is not old relative to martial artists in their 80's. I met Joe Lewis (the Karate man) when he was 55 and still looked very fast and strong. Yip Man was about 50 when he started teaching in Hong Kong and at that time was able to handle people like Leung Sheung quite well.

[black and blue]

"Yip Man was about 50 when he started teaching in Hong Kong and at that time was able to handle people like Leung Sheung quite well."

Or so they say :D What did he do, break bones? How did he handle him quite well? They fought? For real?

[Bob8]

>Or so they say What did he do, break bones?
>How did he handle him quite well?
>They fought? For real?

A lot of people underestimate Yip Man.
He was capable of handling Leung Sheung
without needing to hurt him. Do you think
Leung Sheung with much MA-experience
did not recognize a true MA-genius?

[black and blue]

I have no idea regarding his ability to recognise.

But it does seem to me that are very few stories of YM applying his art. The book on YM's life by his eldest son was a great read, but full of stories of fights that just made me laugh. My particular favourite was the one about him grabbing a policeman's pistol and breaking the chamber with his grip. Pure Jet Li in Leathal Weapon 3 (or Jackie Chan's neat trick in Who Am I).

I think William Cheung has a story about seeing YM fight a robber or the like and punching his a few times in the face (ahuh) and that was that.

I'd love to hear from Masters in other styles who fought/worked out with YM and came away with great respect for his abilities. Most of the stories of his legendary skills come from his students and, well, they are not likely to say he s.ucked, are they?

I am, of course, not saying he s.ucked, just saying there's little recollection (if any) of other Masters attesting to his superior skills.

There..... Yip Man rant over with... for the time being.

[Bob8]

> but full of stories of fights that just made me laugh.
>My particular favourite was the one about him
>grabbing a policeman's pistol and breaking the
>chamber with his grip.

It happened. But you'll have to take into account
the guns in China in were not made from
the strong steel you see today. So it was likely
an old pistol from the beginning of the 20th century
with a loose chamber.

>I think William Cheung has a story about seeing
> YM fight a robber or the like and punching his a
> few times in the face (ahuh) and that was that.

Quick and simple. It is not likely YM was into
movie-fighting...

[black and blue]

Sure. He obviously rocked. I am an idiot to question it.

"It happened"

You sure about that?

:rolleyes:

[Bob8]

>Sure. He obviously rocked. I am an idiot to question it.

No I did not say that.

>You sure about that?

There are few things 100% sure...
I was not there but heard it through
different sources. And it is not impossible
if you know the bad condition from the guns
in China in that period (and before)

[Vajramusti]

B & B sez:

There..... Yip Man rant over with... for the time being.


:o :o :o

[black and blue]

Such comments always bore to tears those who blindly follow - can't see the forest for all the wooden dummies.

But it was my error. I should have written something about YM being just super - invincible - the best - just amazing etc etc. Sifu says arguements are only marginally worse than 'follow the leader'.

[Vajramusti]

B and B sez:

But it was my error.

((True))


I should have written something about YM being just super - invincible - the best - just amazing etc etc.

((that would be superficial. Better to improve on your hsing I-
why troll??))

[black and blue]

Hey, always working to improve the XingYi.

Trolling? No. Just asking why we blindly accept the absurd stories of Kung Fu Masters, YM being no exception.
With all the Kung Fu styles in China, and all the Masters, it seems everyone fought and no one ever lost!

Wanted to know why there 'seems' to be no one outside of the WCK world (of 'Master' status) who verifies YM's abilities.

A negative comment doesn't necessarily equate to trolling, Sir.

[SevenStar]

I definitely agree with that. you hear stories of the masters who were undefeated throught hundreds of challenge matches, could do all of these amazing feats, etc. And everyone just accepts it like it's gospel.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by black and blue
"Yip Man was about 50 when he started teaching in Hong Kong and at that time was able to handle people like Leung Sheung quite well."

Or so they say :D What did he do, break bones? How did he handle him quite well? They fought? For real?

Probably the story is false. Here is a better version of what happened.

According to the Hong Kong newspapers, Yip Man broke a stack of 1000-pound ice blocks and could jump up and kick five oak boards in half. They said he also he killed a Russian horse with a single slap to the animals back. Each week the stories written by Wang Kiu got wilder and wilder. Let's go back in history a bit before these stories started.

It has been rumored by the Tongs that maybe Leung Sheung supplied drugs to Yip Man and then Yip Man sold him a $100,000 franchise to teach Wing Chun. They say that Yip Man never touched Leung Sheung or every discussed Wing Chun with him. All they did was chat in restaurants. But one day Leung Sheung secretly saw Yip Man doing a form when he was spying on him through the hole he drilled through the wall of his apartment. Yip Man in fact saw Leung Sheung teach through a hole in the wall of Leung Sheung's studio and then went home to study Leung Sheung's form.

For amusement while he was high on drugs, he did everything backwards. This is when Leung Sheung saw his stuff. It so happened that Yip Man discovered the hole in his wall and realizing that Leung Sheung was spying on him, concocted a brilliant plan to get even with him.

Yip Man handled Leung Sheung quite well by deceiving him into thinking that he knew some martial art. In fact Yip Man played a joke on Leung Sheung by merely using Leung Sheung's movements but doing the opposite. So where Leung Sheung did a wide stance, Yip Man did a narow stance. When Leung Sheung used a flat fist, Leung Sheung used a vertical fist. When Leung Sheung's Wu sau came out forward, Yip Man made his go backwards. While Leung Sheung used hard strong motions, Yip Man used soft ones.

Leung Sheung thought that was a brilliant innovation and so he fell for Yip Man's joke. In a period of 5 months, Leung Sheung had mastered Yip Man’s backward form. Leung Sheung decided to test this Wing Chun in competition and to his surprise won the all Hong Kong nationals competition by breaking his competitor’s jaw with a Phoenix Eye punch. Unfortunately he was disqualified so he entered the forms competitions where he showed off his new form. The judges didn’t know what to make of it but after some bribery by Leung Ting, decided to award him the coveted Gold medallion for his efforts. His winning made front-page news.

Leung Sheung being very ****y decided to challenge the great Yip Man. So he summoned Yip Man to the teahouse and challenged him to a match. Yip Man being high on Opium was very calm in the face of Leung Sheung's challenge. Leung Sheung threw a Pheonix eye fist at Yip Man but just then Yip Man turned to look at the new waitress and fell off his chair. Leung Sheung missed and hit his head on the low hanging light above the table and knocked himself unconscious. When he came to he couldn't remember what happened.

But Leung Ting, a student of Leung Sheung's Dragon style, happened to be there and being a friend also of Yip Man offered to help Yip Man by publishing a story in all the Hong Kong newspapers of how Yip Man beat up Leung Sheung. From this story Yip Man suddenly got hundreds of students wanting to learn his secret style. Yip Man, knowing that Leung Sheuing was a good fighter, decided to have Leung Sheung teach all these people in exchange for a percentage of the fees. Leung Sheung thought it was a great honor to be the head instructor for Yip Man. Leung Ting realizing the commercial potential of this new deceptive art, never refuted the story.

[Ernie]

now that story makes much more sense and explains the current state of wing chun or AKA the backwards opium style fist

[anerlich]

Probably the story is false. Here is a better version of what happened.

LOL. I don't believe a word, but it's very funny.


For amusement while he was high on drugs, he did everything backwards.

Did he moon walk as well? That would have been cool.

[Nick Forrer]

WSL was once asked if Ip Man was really any good

He replied - If he wasnt I wouldn't have signed up

[anerlich]

AKA the backwards opium style fist

Can anyone translate that into Cantonese? I would make a great name for the new academy I plan to open.

I read the story Ray quoted again. A hilarious film could be made based thereon. I especially like the references to Leung Ting as the guy with his eye always on the cash, and Leung Sheung knocking himself out on the lamp when Yip Man fell off his chair.

Surely no one actually BELIEVED that?

[sihing]

Interesting, I just watched the Roy Jones Jr fight from two weeks ago, the one where he got knocked out again. Funny thing was the commentators where saying just what I was saying, that basically for all of Jones career he relied heavily on his natural reflexes and great speed, and that now, since he didn't have those assets like he used to, this fight was getting harder and harder for him as it went along before his knockout. UMMMMMM.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by anerlich
Can anyone translate that into Cantonese? I would make a great name for the new academy I plan to open.

I read the story Ray quoted again. A hilarious film could be made based thereon. I especially like the references to Leung Ting as the guy with his eye always on the cash, and Leung Sheung knocking himself out on the lamp when Yip Man fell off his chair.

Surely no one actually BELIEVED that?

I wonder which actors could play the parts in that movie? I'd like to see Don Knotts in it (playing a Ninja assassin, which has yet to be written into the plot). Apparently Jim Carrey has some martial arts experience, too, so he'd almost be a certainty. Maybe he could play the part of the waiter who founded a new style based on the conversations of the famous martial arts restaurant patrons that he overheard :)

[Enforcer-]

naw when a guy has a reach advantage its very hard to out ox them, especially if theyre fast and agile. All they have to do is keep throwing jabs and move backwards if you try to work inside. That's what Lennix Lewis basically did against Tyson.

[black and blue]

Ray,

Your story was great.... I particularly liked the reference to the Russian Horse.

:D

The fact is, Kung Fu history is full of stories equally as ridiculous.... and everyone believes them.

Nick,

I too have heard that quote regarding WSL. Did he ever spar with YM? Don't want to sound like an a.rse (I can see Joy flexing his typing fingers as I just wrote that), but every teacher looks good in front of his students - who, of course, have inferior skill.

Did WSL put YM to the test? - that's what I'm getting at. Did 'anyone' with skill put him to the test? Hong Kong was full of good Kung Fu, no?


To anyone reading,

Considering all the talk regarding challenge fights back in the day, who from the YM clan saw YM meet challenge fights?

Again, this isn't a troll (I'm not saying WC sucks), but genuinely would like to hear some feedback on these questions.

Duncan

Ps. LS providing YM with drugs - sure, why not!!!!! (now that is trolling!)

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by black and blue
Nick, I too have heard that quote regarding WSL. Did he ever spar with YM?............Did WSL put YM to the test? - that's what I'm getting at.

Yes. WSL was an accomplished boxer to begin with. When he first went to Ip mans school he beat two of his students. Ip man then said 'try me' and put WSL in the corner easily, without hurting him.


Originally posted by black and blue
Did 'anyone' with skill put him to the test? Hong Kong was full of good Kung Fu, no?...................Considering all the talk regarding challenge fights back in the day, who from the YM clan saw YM meet challenge fights?

WSL had over 50 challenge matches against Mantis, Choy lay Fut etc. and is *said* to have won them all. Where do you think he got his skills from? As far as I know Ip man was his only teacher.

[black and blue]

Thanks for the info, Nick.

It would be good to know more about the WSL encounter with YM. Did WSL ever document what happened? Was it a quick control or was YM going full out to put WSL down without hurting him too much? Is interesting.

Regarding WSL's fights, I hear what you're saying, but by all accounts WSL could fight 'before' he went to YM's school, no? I'd heard he was quite the boxer.

[Nick Forrer]

Duncan,

Follow the link and download the Ving Tsun files. It is a pdf doc with the info you need

Ving Tsun Files (http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslarticles.htm)

Later

Nick

[black and blue]

Thank you - a lot of material to read.... you have ruined any chance of me getting work done today :( :)

[kj]

Thanks for the link, Nick!
- kj

[Stevo]

Originally posted by black and blue
Thanks for the info, Nick.

It would be good to know more about the WSL encounter with YM. Did WSL ever document what happened? Was it a quick control or was YM going full out to put WSL down without hurting him too much? Is interesting.

Regarding WSL's fights, I hear what you're saying, but by all accounts WSL could fight 'before' he went to YM's school, no? I'd heard he was quite the boxer.

BAB

Wasn't WSL 17 or so when he first met Yip Man? The way I'd heard the incident recounted, WSL was quite c.ocky and impetuous due to his youth and boxing ability, and wasn't ready to be easily humbled. Apparently he immediately switched to Wing Chun from boxing after that incident. If he was already a good boxer as you say, his decision to take up Wing Chun probably indicates that he was pretty impressed by the way Yip Man showed him what Wing Chun was about.

(just noticed that while I was writing this, Nick posted a link which probably answers your question)

[black and blue]

"Yip was by far the greater strategist. He carefully
manoeuvred his opponent into a corner and just when
Wong was halfway through a kick to the midsection,
Yip pushed him on the chest knocking him, off
balance, into the wall. Yip quickly closed the gap and
executed a rapid-fire six to seven blows into Wong's
body just hard enough to let him know that he could
have done real damage if he had wanted to Wong was
amazed at Yip's speed and control. He knew he had
found a master at last and asked permission to study
with Yip."

I guess the answer is there. He had street fighting ability but only a little Taiji. So having moved to boxing he knew how to fight stand up with his fists. He lost because he kicked - something he had no real training in.

Against the larger opponent (whom he fougth after YM) he got beat because the guy was bigger and stronger. Still, all said, Wong was in his late teens only, and YM was in his mid 50s. So its fair to say that YM (very skilled or just quite skilled) should have been able to handle a teenager who knew how to box but was out of his depth when kicking.

Just my opinion of course.

[CFT]

Originally posted by anerlich
Can anyone translate that into Cantonese? I would make a great name for the new academy I plan to open.Here you go:

Faan Yee Ngaa Peen Kuen

[Vajramusti]

For James:
Everone has an opinion and you have yours. But whether the opinion is correct gets into the realm of more informed opinions.
In watching boxing I pay no mind to the comments of Lampley,
Larry Merchant, Bob Costas and the late Howard Cossell. They orate, spout statistics do interviews and make sure that they are manicured, hair or hairpiece in the right place, have sound bites ready among other things.

Among commentators Emmanuel Seward and Teddy Atlas are ina different and much higher class.But they do have their unique ideas and can be wrong on occasion- they are trainers themselves and their fighters have won and lost- Seward on de la Hoya though he hedged his comments. Also some tacit knowledge for observers and being there helps. Of course Jones is older than he was- we all are. But his opponent was as old as him and had almost as many fights under his belt.His opponent fought smart. Even Seward thought that he would punch himself out but he didnt and had conditioned himself appropriately for windmill action up close from the inside.

Punching power goes up in the higher weights and one punch can make a difference- specially when your skull hits the canvas
as was the case with Jones's concussion..
Jones should retire because he should enjoy his wealth- his reputation will remain high. Pro boxers who stay on do get damaged in varying degrees.

Jones's record is not just due to "speed" alone. The details of his skill are impressive- still are. His record since amateur days is one of the very best.

Boxing is considerably a mental game including thinking on one's feet specially when one is hit- provided the conditioning/training/ some strategising have been attended to. Any boxer can make a mistake-Louis in the first Schmeling fight dropping his left aftera jab, Lennox Lewis turning into Rahman;s right hand in their first fight and down went Lennox L (trained by Seward).

Jones underestimated Johnson who was hungry, determined and hada solid plan- take the center, keep moving in and jam jones--
laying on the ropes in that situation was the wrong strategy for Jones- hubris was part of the problem.

In the Taver fight- Tarver is a heavy hitter and a lefty and unlike many leftys(Jirov) Tarver punches straight. Jones was ahead in the fight till he dropped his right after a failed left and Tarver moved in instantly with a perfect left. Southpaws present entirely different architectural reference points.

Nick- thanks for the wsl quote re Ip man.I type with only one finger occasionally two-often in poor light in the midst of surrounding pandemonium-humans and animals.

For B & B---
Sorry that Ip man didnt leavea lifetime video of his activities for you and I. Its ok to laugh at Ip Ching's English and description of taking the gun away. Try it sometime.
There are the stories of Ip man's best students who knew his hands. And in the HK challenge days no one challenged him.
What he did was for real in his early days- and in important things people keep many things to themselves about the dark side of life. He had to deal with the Japanese who came to his property looking for hidden gold. He was later in law enforcement under the KMTand one story is that he killed someone before his escape to Macao and HK. He was on the wrong side of the Maoists.
Jiu Wan had nothing but respect for him and Jiu Wan apparently had a triad background.
If you read Ip Ching's portrait of his father, There is the narration of a 1918 challenge match where IP Man was the designated and impressively winning hitter for Foshan whena Northern Prayin/Preying Mantis master
hurled a challenge at the Jing Mo Wui against anyone in Foshan.
Ip Ching mentions several other incidents including one in HK
of his quick rear(?) kicking of a pickpocket when IP Man was bent over. IM had fast feet as well.
Victor Kan on his site mentions what he saw when Ip man stepped in to take care of a bully who was beatinga woman.
Ip Man's best students knew what his hands were like.
Too bad that IM didnt realize that he would be the subjet of forum discussions.
For me- it's not that "sijo sez"-or Ip man's reputation or record- i think that what has come down from him is superb art with tightly knit condensed principles.
With competent teaching, devoted practice and application and
"testing" one finds out for oneself. Good enough for me- your milaege apparently varies. No problem.

[black and blue]

Sure. No problem. And you are correct, it is a shame about the lack of video footage - at least people today have the chance to record and let it be known to future generations what their skills were.

Personally, at present it is 'Sifu says' mentallity regarding YM, as far as I'm concerned (and for me it is my milage that matters. I was asking for accounts on this forum to try and add a few extra miles)

"What he did was for real in his early days"

You were there in the early days? Of course not, and the same can be said about all of the stories you quoted from Yip Ching's book. (Yip Ching also not being there - all chinese whispers maybe)

A challenge fight ended with one punch, a fight with a pickpocket ended with one kick.

Lots of stories, yet none of them come from anyone "outside" of the WCK world. I'm sure he was good - but in many other arts exponents of other systems will testify to the skill of others... in YM lineage WCK? Only stories from his sons or students (neither of whom is going to say: "Yeah, his forms were sweet but he couldn't fight for love nor money')

So perhaps we'll never know. Well, I will never know. Most people have already made up their own minds having heard and believed a series of gooky Kung Fu stories.

Regarding grabbing a gun... I will pass on that thanks very much.

[kj]

Originally posted by black and blue
Lots of stories, yet none of them come from anyone "outside" of the WCK world.

One caveat is that many of the story tellers were indeed "outside" of Wing Chun before something occured to inspire their practice of it.


So perhaps we'll never know. Well, I will never know. Most people have already made up their own minds having heard and believed a series of gooky Kung Fu stories

Yes, there is no way of "direct" verification now. It's human nature to seek and see evidence supporting our own existing views - believers and skeptics alike. We are all at risk of selective acuity and blindness.

Back to you guys ... carry on. :)

Regards,
- kj

[black and blue]

KJ, you are quite right.

I should have said, "There are no martial artists from other arts who tested YM and saw what he had to give, but testify to his skill despite sticking to their own art."

Or, with a little more brevity....

"Why is it no one but YM's students talk of his skills?"

Of all the southern (and I guess some Northen) styles that wound up in HK, no one knew of YM, or did, but had nothing to say about him. Hmmmm.

We do know that according to his sons and students he was great, and according to many he defeated a teenage WSL.

Slim pickings.

[sihing]

Originally posted by black and blue
KJ, you are quite right.
I should have said, "There are no martial artists from other arts who tested YM and saw what he had to give, but testify to his skill despite sticking to their own art."
Or, with a little more brevity....
"Why is it no one but YM's students talk of his skills?"
Of all the southern (and I guess some Northen) styles that wound up in HK, no one knew of YM, or did, but had nothing to say about him. Hmmmm.
We do know that according to his sons and students he was great, and according to many he defeated a teenage WSL.
Slim pickings.

Wasn't Wing Chun relatively unknown until Yip Man started to teach it publicly? This is probably why the other styles didn't know of Yip Man. Also, when the WC players were doing quite well in the challenge fights, jealousy could have played a role in the other master's/students not saying much about Yip Man. From what GM Cheung has related allot of the master's of that era in Hong Kong were lazy and relied allot on the reputation of a fighting style and didn't practice much themselves, so according to him the overall quality of Kung-Fu in Hong Kong back then wasn't very high anyways. I also heard of the story of Yip Man killing someone in a fight once, so I think it's fair to say that for a man of such small stature he was an excellent fighter and technician, just that he didn't like to teach much.

What I find interesting is, according to the Chi Sim Weng Chun history, under GM Hoffman, the Chi Sim Weng Chun masters of that era were gathing together in the HK area to combine there knowledge and see what works and what doesn't. Apparently Yip Man was there at times with these other master, sometimes to learn, from what I understand. There is a picture out there somewhere of Yip Man with his relative that was a Chi Sim WC master.

James

[black and blue]

I really don't know how well known the art was in HK. Yip Man certainly wasn't the only person teaching the art. As you say, the Chi Sim gang and also Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun was in HK. Was there also some Yuen Kay-San in HK too?

But for sure, as soon as Yip Man started teaching and the classes grew a reputation was quickly spread - with all the talk of HKs challenge fights I'm more than a little surprised that no one of any worth wanted to challenge Yip Man.

Were they not good enough? Well, I can't believe that YM was the only real master in Hong Kong at the time. What about the Mantis folks? - fierce fighters, and also a southern style.

[todi laugin]

I've talked with my fried that teaches wckf and he has explained to me that some schools of wckf only fight wckf practitioners and not anyone else. Maybe that's why his studentsspeak so highly of YM.Maybe he only fought other wckf practitioners to show superiority.This is why I say learn the kung fu for yourself not for who teaches it.

[YongChun]

One of Yip Man's students had close connections with the Hong Kong police. So that kept the Wing Chun clan out of a lot of trouble and from getting killed off too fast by rival schools and the underworld. But Wing Chun still got the name of gangster fist because some of the gangs found it useful.

[Vajramusti]

b and b sez-

Were they not good enough? Well, I can't believe that YM was the only real master in Hong Kong at the time. What about the Mantis folks? - fierce fighters, and also a southern style.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about the chopsticks gang-they routed all styles at dinner time.

[sihing]

William Cheung's father was a police officer in Hong Kong I believe, that's why he moved out to the new Territories because he was fighting too much and he couldn't live with his family due to his fathers involvement with the police, after he lived with Yip Man. Eventually he had to leave HK due to the problems he was having with the triads. Who knows what really happened but I believe some of the stories are real.

James

[YongChun]

Williams family connections helped the Wing Chun clan so that they didn't have to take the position of either having to be with the underworld or to fight against them. (Either you are with them or against them). So maybe that's why Yip Man gave William Cheung special treatment like he claims.

[chisauking]

It has been said that Yip Man has never taken more than 1-step back during chisau with any of his students. Now, you must remember that Yip Man was in his 60's at the time, engaging in gor-sau with the likes of William Cheung or Kan Wah Chit -- people that were close to being in their prime. If a little old man can do that, I for want wouldn't question his fighting ability when he was in his prime. Also, I have felt Kan sifu's power -- he rock me back and forth with ease during our chisau sessions. If Yip Man can stop someone as powerful as Kan or Cheung from expressing their power, I know for a fact that he has real fighting skills. In other words, I have gaged Yip Man's skill via his students.

[sihing]

There's no doubt that Yip Man was skillful. They say that to really learn a fighting art learn it from a woman (or small man), as they cannot rely on speed or strength to win, but have to be super skillful at what they are teaching. Since Yip Man was a very small man, he had to be more skillful. But, to say that William Cheung was in his prime at 16, 17 or 18yrs old, I'm not sure. Maybe physically he was, as from what I understand he was big for his age and a very good athlete, but I believe a Man's physical peak is more around 24 to 26. In WC terms I would place that number around 35 or 36yrs old, and that is generalizing, as there are skillful people out there that are much older than 35yrs. At the earlier ages the young "Master" will rely heavily on their strength and speed, and use less finesse. As we age through the art we appreciate the subtleties more and are able to utilize more of the efficiency and effectiveness of the things we have been practicing. Plus our understanding of the concepts and principals will increase and this will make us more effective practitioners of the art as a whole.

James

[black and blue]

Good Lord.... :rolleyes:

[phantom]

In the case of judo, I suppose you and your partner could practice throws on each other by just lifting each other slightly off of your feet instead of going through and throwing him onto the floor. What do you guys think of this? Thanks in advance.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by phantom
In the case of judo, I suppose you and your partner could practice throws on each other by just lifting each other slightly off of your feet instead of going through and throwing him onto the floor. What do you guys think of this? Thanks in advance.

We have a cement training floor so we tend to do controlled sweeps and throws to the cement to avoid injury. We would do partial throws and sweeps. If I sweep and takedown a beginner student then I would go down with him in kneeling position and shield the back of his head so he doesn't hit it on the concrete. We tend to wrestle around on the concrete and after awhile you just can adjust your movements so that you can do that without chipping your elbow, smashing your head etc. With a mat, a lot more options would be possible with a lot less worry about risks. A late Silat Master Herman Siwanda said they always trained everything on concrete because it was more realistic that way.

Ray

[planetwc]

Wong Shun Leung showed up at Ip Man's school and being an ex-boxer challenged people there. The first students he sparred with he manhandled.
About that time, Yip Bo Ching showed up and promptly schooled Wong Shun Leung. Wong then joined Ip Man's school and the rest is, as we say, history.

Most of the challenge fighting was done by Ip Man's senior students (as tradition normally has it). Remember teenagers like William Cheung and Bruce Lee would go around beating up sifus of other martial arts in HK and getting into fights.

Ip Man's first student in HK, Leung Sheung switched over to Wing Chun after Ip Man totally controlled him when they sparred the first time. Leung Sheung turned over his classes to Yip Man at that point. Prior to that Leung Sheung was fairly well known for his extensive training and background in martial arts, like Choy Lay Fut, Dragon style, et al. He gave them all up based on the superior skill of Ip Man and lived and trained with Ip Man for 6 years alongside Lok Yiu.

I have heard of the rivalries with Choy Lay Fut, White Crane and other styles that would often have rooftop fights among the students. And I've seen references to other martial arts teachers complaining to Ip Man about all the brawling and challenging his students were doing. That apparently toned things down a bit--but many of the HK based Wing Chun students loved to go out and test their skills against other arts.


Originally posted by black and blue
KJ, you are quite right.

I should have said, "There are no martial artists from other arts who tested YM and saw what he had to give, but testify to his skill despite sticking to their own art."

Or, with a little more brevity....

"Why is it no one but YM's students talk of his skills?"

Of all the southern (and I guess some Northen) styles that wound up in HK, no one knew of YM, or did, but had nothing to say about him. Hmmmm.

We do know that according to his sons and students he was great, and according to many he defeated a teenage WSL.

Slim pickings.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phantom
In the case of judo, I suppose you and your partner could practice throws on each other by just lifting each other slightly off of your feet instead of going through and throwing him onto the floor. What do you guys think of this? Thanks in advance.


we do this all the time, even though we have mats. This is called uchi komi - or fitting in. This will allows you to practice hundreds of reps of a throw without having to throw your partner hundreds of times. You can also wrap inner tubes, surgical tubing, etc. aroud a pillar and do the same thing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chisauking
It has been said that Yip Man has never taken more than 1-step back during chisau with any of his students. Now, you must remember that Yip Man was in his 60's at the time, engaging in gor-sau with the likes of William Cheung or Kan Wah Chit -- people that were close to being in their prime. If a little old man can do that, I for want wouldn't question his fighting ability when he was in his prime. Also, I have felt Kan sifu's power -- he rock me back and forth with ease during our chisau sessions. If Yip Man can stop someone as powerful as Kan or Cheung from expressing their power, I know for a fact that he has real fighting skills. In other words, I have gaged Yip Man's skill via his students.

you gauged his chi sau skill, not his fighting skill...you have gauged the fact that he has some of the attributes necessary to be a good fighter. you know he has the potential to be a good fighter...but you don't actually know that he is.

[black and blue]

Which was the point of my posts - hearing isn't the same as knowing, and in YM's case the hearing has been filtered through the hearing aids of his students.

We know for sure that he bested a young and inexperienced WSL, and that he did the same to Leung Sheung, who is supposed to have been good at CLF and Dragon style. But if that encounter (the latter) was as 'light' as the WSL one it would leave a lot to be desired.

Could YM fight? I'm sure he could. But it is still mind boggling that people today (who in so many instances speak of 'seeing/feeling skill' rather than just 'reading about it/talking about it') blindly accept some pretty tall stories on YM and his fighting "encounters".

Ridiculous :rolleyes:

And for all the posts, I still haven't really felt convinced by any of the arguements which try and support (in a positive sense) the fact that YM didn't seem to have 'any' challenge fights in HK, despite the fact they (fights) happened frequently.

I guess it's not of enough importance (feeling convinced or lack there of) to keep me awake at night, but I can't help feel there are some dam.ned idiots in the Wing Chun community.

[chisauking]

you gauged his chi sau skill, not his fighting skill...you have gauged the fact that he has some of the attributes necessary to be a good fighter. you know he has the potential to be a good fighter...but you don't actually know that he is.

Aha, so you are saying that someone who has deveoped the attributes neccesary for fighting, but may not be able to fight? Just in case you don't know, for the wing chun fighter, the chisau skills deveoped are actual fighting attributes, and it's very much applicable in a real fight. I would argue that it's impossible not to be able to fight well once you have reach a very high state in your chisau. Unfortunately, and I don't mean to demean any group in particular, I have met very, very few practitioners that has reached a high standard.

In order to justify your statement, who do you personally know of that has reached a very high level in their chisau but can't fight?