taking KF seriously...

[Lee Kwan Shan]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum.

I've been training in Wha Lum Tan Tui praying mantis for several years, and I've seen alot of people come and go from my school. People don't like it because I'm learning from a real martial artist who believes that martial arts should be a lifestyle.

Now what I want to know is.... at what point did people start thinking that martial arts is just a child's play thing, or even an on-the-side hobby. I think it all started when it travelled to the west where eastern philosophy wasn't regarded as "legit". Guns and pills were considered legit. This led to the creation of the McDojo, in where building somebody's self esteem comes first, even if it means handing them their rank.

My school doesn't believe in that, and people come in and slack off thinking that they can get to black belt in a year, and they realize that this school isn't Tokyo Joe's. I just belt-tested a few newbies the other day and the didn't know any of their stuff. They'd forget parts of their form, it was pathetic. They didn't study at all, and they only did good on the written part of the test. Also, during the drills that we went through they didn't push themselves at all, I was NOT impressed.

One girl went out and my instructor told her to do the "8-Chain" punch, a short, fundamental "kata-like" kung fu form that every student learns their first day. She started doing 16 Hands, the first form out of the Jut Sow mantis style. Sifu was like "that wasn't too bad, but I said do 8-Chain punch". And she suddenly freaked out and said "well you did tell me I had to know that!" and he replied simply with "actually, I told you to remember everything."

People just don't take Kung Fu seriously these days. They act like they can take a class and then walk around and say they know kung fu. I'm not saying they should make it their number one priority, but remember kung fu means energy and time, and it got that name beacuse that is what is required to be good at it. All I'm saying is if you're gonna do something people should do it properly and apply themselves.

[neit]

although personally i aim to make kung fu(and iaido) a huge part of my life. i don't have anything against people who do martial arts as a "2 hours a week" kind of thing. as long as they give their 100% for those 2 hours thats fine. its paying good money just to fool around or socialize that confuses me. anyways the point i was attempting to make is there is nothing wrong with hobbyists, as long as they take a serious attitude during training.

[neit]

oh and i do agree on the rest.

[Brad]

I agree, kungfu is a great hobby. It's pretty impractical for most people to dedicate much time at home for practice.


Now what I want to know is.... at what point did people start thinking that martial arts is just a child's play thing, or even an on-the-side hobby. I think it all started when it travelled to the west where eastern philosophy wasn't regarded as "legit". Guns and pills were considered legit. This led to the creation of the McDojo, in where building somebody's self esteem comes first, even if it means handing them their rank.

My school doesn't believe in that, and people come in and slack off thinking that they can get to black belt in a year, and they realize that this school isn't Tokyo Joe's. I just belt-tested a few newbies the other day and the didn't know any of their stuff. They'd forget parts of their form, it was pathetic. They didn't study at all, and they only did good on the written part of the test. Also, during the drills that we went through they didn't push themselves at all, I was NOT impressed.
How much of your practice time is spent hard sparring, and working on fighting? How much of the belt testing is based on using application in a freestyle situation?

[Fen]

lol! Not all Kwoons are McKwoons! and all Kwoons need students to pay the bills!

~Jason

[Lee Kwan Shan]

Well yeah I mean I agree, I guess I did come off a bit prude. I mean I wasn't saying you have to become a shaolin monk or anything, but yeah like you guys said the people who come and go to our school don't work at all at it. They didn't study for their test, they were in complete confusion. Kung Fu can be a hobby, but like everything that you do, it should be taken with seriousness. Obviously it doesn't have to be your top priority, those come first, but I'm talking about the people who pay, come to class, goof off for an hour and socialize, then leave. I mean I teach the class once a week under my sifu, and it's annoying when you're explaining something that you've explained a thousand times over to a person and the only reason they're not getting it is because they don't care. Most people that come in just want to say that they know kung fu. Others took a year of a completely different martial art a long time ago and think they're superstars and try to tell the instructors how to do their jobs. So yeah you guys are right, I just chose the wrong words to make my point.

Oh yeah, and yes we do hard sparring. We ease into it, though. First he'll teach us a technique and we'll do it slow and easy so we can get the motion properly, then he taught us boxing because he's a professional kickboxer, too. Then after we were comfortable with both he'd set a 2 minute round and we'd have to try and only apply our kung fu applications instead of just boxing stuff. It's difficult but it's helped ALOT. There's this one guy who's really big and he used to be a boxer, and he also doesn't know restraint. He broke my nose once, haha.

[count]

I don't disagree with what you think is wrong with the majority of people who take up martial arts.

I'm curious if these students were given promotion or not?

[neit]

i definatly think training is under prioritized though. society says work and getting an education should be my highest priority. but my greatest happiness is in martial arts. in the last year or so i have realised how clouded my priorities are. why would i spend my youth working so that i can enjoy a comfy life and have time to train when i am 60? i used to always miss class because i was studying or my employer had convinced me to take a conflicting shift. but why? a person only lives once. i say if you have a certain interest go for it. luckily i now have a job that i love that allows me to persue my dreams at the same time. but i still have to remember where my priorities lie.

[Enforcer-]

Originally posted by Brad
I agree, kungfu is a great hobby. It's pretty impractical for most people to dedicate much time at home for practice.


How much of your practice time is spent hard sparring, and working on fighting? How much of the belt testing is based on using application in a freestyle situation?

what does that have to do with his post?

[David Jamieson]

I agree with the sentiments of the post. Been there.

But you should really use the tags when making a post of this nature. :D

[Brad]

what does that have to do with his post?
If you're refering to the first part, that was in response to neit's post. The second part had to do with knowing what sort of school he goes to. A lot of Wah Lum students that I've come across have been trained in a fashion closer to a typical McDojo type school than a "real martial art". If he came from one of the form oriented/competition oriented schools, the rant would be pretty hypocritical seeing how much he criticizes "McDojo's" and the like.

[Ray Pina]

Personally, I'm growing very disatisfied with Kung Fu myself these days .... too much theory. Everyone's an expert. Then there's a tournament, and advanced men's fighting doesn't allow face contact?

How do advanced fighters fight without face contact? How many set ups and traps rely on you defending the face strike?

How does one play chess without checking the king?

Do you think a chest blast is a deterant to a guy who weights 240 lbs.?

It's a joke. The more I see what's out there the more I'm left thinking that MMA is the only true forum left. You can call it "low level" but they're doing it. Kung Fu likes to talk one way, practice another and theory you do death.

And then when there is fighting, it's no different than TKD rules .... no this, no that. Don't take down. Don't elbow. Don't face strike.

The arts are dying. If Kung Fu is worth saving you need to force a revolution. You want to enter "Advanced" fighting? You better be equiped to handle everything and everything. If you're not, you are either not "advanced" or your training is lacking.

I don't want to come off as being negative. But this has been on my mind and I no longer care about Style A or Style B. I'm 30 years old and I want the good stuff and I want it now. I don't want theory. Theory is for the guys building the rocket. I want it pre-made and ready to hop in and go.

[red5angel]

lee kwan shan - what you're saying is pretty typical of ALL schools. Some guys will claim their students are all pretty hard working, but that's completely subjective. However, most people don't put a lot of time into working on their art outside of their classes. You'll find alot of people take martial arts to accomplish two things - to get in shape and to get supposed self defense skills. Tha majorit of the people who shoot for those two goals don't realize and usually aren't willing to put in the time and effort to learn the art and to make it effective (ironic considering the self defense part.)
There's also a large majority out there who take classes as a hobby. Usually it starts with either one or both of the above mentioned goals, and/or a certain enjoyment in martial arts/action films. Most of those people sort of come and go when they realize that getting good, even if it's just to show off, takes time and energy and a whole lot of effort.
On top of that , I don't know a whole lot of people who are capable of affording to train full time. Most people work roughly 40 hours a week to survive, and many others have personal lives that tend to require a certain amount of their time.
What it comes down to is that in our modern busy times, most people do the martial arts as a hobby at best. You'll find a fee dedicated individuals who train as often and as much as they can, but they are the minority.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
How do advanced fighters fight without face contact? How many set ups and traps rely on you defending the face strike? Didn't you say last week that you don't allow face contact in class, and would even get mad if someone hit you hard in the face on accident?

[red5angel]

I don't want to come off as being negative. But this has been on my mind and I no longer care about Style A or Style B. I'm 30 years old and I want the good stuff and I want it now. I don't want theory. Theory is for the guys building the rocket. I want it pre-made and ready to hop in and go.

then why don't you switch to MMA if that is the answer to your dreams?

[Ray Pina]

Master Killer, I didn't reply to your comment in that last post because I thought you perhaps typed it off quick in the moment and would realise, that if I'm fighting in full contact events on a regular basis that of course I train with full contact blows TO MY FACE.

What you missed in that post of course was the point. That you train full power, full force to TEST materials. But there is also a time when you are learning and training materials.

Take a concept like horse in Hsing-I. One of it's principles is to trap or hook the hand (somewhat like WC Fuk Sau) and then shoot the same hand in to hit, while controlling the arm with the elbow.

To train this, me and my sparring partner will play light, shoot straights and hooks into each other's torso at say 50 % power but with speed. We'll brush each other's heads but try to avoid straight face contact but slips happen. At 50% its cool.

The point of the drill is to see if you can capture the arm, control it, and slip your own attack in.

If you feel good about it, maybe you'll try it next time when you play full power. Understand that difference?

I also made it clear though that I won't complain if you try to headbutt me when we are rolling and working on technique. Just understand that you signed a contract by that behavior stating that you understand that's just went live. And if I turn it around, I'll knee you right in the face..... I have good sparring partners, and this crap is never an issue (only when a friend or a friend shows up occassionally).

....

Red, you are absolutely right. I have long said here that I don't like being associated with "Kung Fu", because I believe I'm doing something different than what that implies to most.

I'm sporting a bum knee which I'm retsing before a surf trip. When I get back I'm preparing training for a serious San Da run. When I prove myself there, I will focus on MMA events. I need to walk before I can run, and there are serious fighters at Mr. Ross's events. They aren't fooling around.

That is by far the best MA venue I've been associated with so far: classy, well run, but serious.

[red5angel]

does this mean you're done with "kungfu"? Traditional kungfu that is?

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by red5angel
On top of that , I don't know a whole lot of people who are capable of affording to train full time. Most people work roughly 40 hours a week to survive, and many others have personal lives that tend to require a certain amount of their time.
What it comes down to is that in our modern busy times, most people do the martial arts as a hobby at best. You'll find a fee dedicated individuals who train as often and as much as they can, but they are the minority.

Unfortunately, that's the case for me. I'm a 28 year old business professional who would LOVE to have more time to train every week. But I have clear-cut priorities, and I can't afford to place Kung Fu any higher on the list--it's pretty much at 4th behind God, family, and work. But I also do train on my own when I have time and bust my tail in class to get better.

[richard sloan]

most expedient means of defense/attack = guns.

just my opinion, and what seems to me to be the final conclusion to this thought line...



I'm 30 years old and I want the good stuff and I want it now. I don't want theory. Theory is for the guys building the rocket. I want it pre-made and ready to hop in and go.


Anything before you start arming yourself is really just games. They can be serious games, very true, but once you step up to that other mode of thinking- this is my life, I am in some heavy situations, and other people in this circle are carrying, etc, my opinion is that it is pretty easy to see the difference between the two modalities. This might come off badly, but one is sort of like a fantasy mentality of turning yourself into some kind of sick uberwarrior ready to dis any sucker who dares to step, while the other recognizes why you hit on a 16 when the dealer's got a 10 or face card showing.

That is also why I think a lot of people say that at first, kung fu is about fighting, but then it turns to be about something else.

[red5angel]

Reggie, I don't think there is anything wrong with doing the martial arts as a hobby as long as the one approaching it that way understands his potential will always be low, and he won't, honeslty be a good representation of the art.
What I mean is, if it's a hobby for you, understand that you're a) not going to be as good as you could be and B) not going to be as good as others who put in the time to train will be.
My only issue with the hobby thing is that I've met to many hobbyist who seem to think they have more then they do.

[MasterKiller]

Quality of training time > quantity of training time.

Busting your @ss 5-8 hours a week is better than walking through forms 15-20 hours a week.

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by red5angel
What I mean is, if it's a hobby for you, understand that you're a) not going to be as good as you could be and B) not going to be as good as others who put in the time to train will be.
My only issue with the hobby thing is that I've met to many hobbyist who seem to think they have more then they do.

And I believe it's like what MK said--my 10 hours of intense training will be better than many people's 15 hours of training. Sure, I know that I'm not going to be as good as the guy who trains 15-30 hard hours a week, but I also bet that I'll be able to represent my art just fine.

[Ray Pina]

I agree, that MA its a hobby for most, me too .... I'm certainly not training to be an assasin.

But, even as a hobbyist I don't want my hobby dumbed down. If we are playing chess ... yes, you can take the rook, queen and king.

Seems like Kung Fu is becoming a game of opening pawn moves. A few basics openings -- each style calling it by what it wants -- followed by a lot of talk about how the game "would" unfold if it was played out.

Why not remove all the BS and let people play the game?

A lot of people like football but not everyone can handle the full contact. So there is two hand touch and flag football.

Right now, MMA is real football, and Kung Fu is losing its essence.

I don't say these things as a BJJ troll. I say these things as a Chinese INTERNAL martial artist. But I am being honest about what I am seeing out there ... entire generations of kung fu guys (older men, men in their prime, young men and teens) who can't compete.... many of them teaching!!!!!

I think the solution is to start allowing more play at Kung Fu events and make the term "advanced" mean something. Allow throw downs. Allow ground fighting. This would force any serious competitor to pick up his game.

Right now, I'm considering a training course of one month Internal, one month MMA. This is not because I don't think Kung Fu has the material .... it's just so God **** hard to find a fight these days with a kung fu guy. Can you believe that?

[Lee Kwan Shan]

Well, to address the fellow who said earlier that he wasn't happy with what kung fu is becoming, it's not so much kung fu as it is those who teach it. At least that's what it looked like he said. But in my opinion, self defense does not have to be the primary reason for taking martial arts anymore. Yes, they were obviously created as military combat styles, but they've evolved since then. A martial art is only as combat effective as the practitioner, though. Different people have different goals and different paths they travel in life. Some may be having personal issues and martial arts gives them something to look forward to in life, and something they can get involved in. Either way, whether you're trying to forge yourself into a fighting machine or just have something to do, I don't really care about as long as the person is working as hard as they can afford to at it. So in that case I think style is very pertanent to what you're doing. Right now I take kung fu for various reasons. Self defense actually being one of the lesser ones seeing as I probably wont' get into a fight as much as those who created kung fu did. Not that I don't practice applications at all, I'm just saying that the culture and the history of the style really makes taking worth while. In order to pass our tests, we had to take written tests on the history of our style and tests on how chi works. We even had to write essays.


Also, to address another guy, can't remember who said it, but they mentioned that most wha lum schools can't be trusted, and rightfully so. I see where you're coming from. My school isn't primarily a wha lum school, but the instructor is renowned throughout new england as the only sifu in new hampshire that actually knows what he's doing. Sifu Paul Averill is a direct student of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. That's where he learned complex Chin Na, too. So yeah no, this isn't a McDojo. But I understand why you're just making sure, I too have seen some pretty questionable wha lum schools.

[Lee Kwan Shan]

Ok now I see what you're getting at, Evolution, and I heartily agree. Yeah, the fighting has been so toned down that if you move in agressively they'll practically give you a penalty. I haven't entered competition sparring, but I've watched it.

At my school we do takedowns, and if you get hit hard my instructor just says "well, if you don't wanna get hit... block it...."

I mean within reason. He's obviously not going to endanger our lives, but there have been a few broken noses and there's almost always blood every time we spar. And my instructor just says "hey, in a real fight your opponent would be kickin' your ass right now, he wouldn't be apologizing."

This kind of fighting brings us to reality. Higher consciousness through harder contact, I agree.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you. Martial Arts has so much to offer: discipline, self respect. healthy body, mind and soul.

Like you, I can't imagine myself needing to "defend" myself. The few situations that have come close lately were either disfused by politeness or a sense that I was more than happy to let events unfold.

I view martial arts as something I've been doing as a kid and think I have ability in. To that end, I want to see how far I can take it, how competitive I can be.

I do that as an obligation to myself. And, also, I teach my landlord's son, who is 16 and growing. After two years I would put him up against many "experienced" martial artists I know.

Why?

NO FORMS!!!!!!

Every time we train we put gloves on and work principles. He's comfortable fighting, and that's a start. Give myself more time, more technique and experience, give him for time, more experience, and his MA means something.

All the "other" aspects of martial arts can be obtained by a number of activities, such as yoga, baseball, ect. MARTIAL arts HAS to offer effective hand to hand combat otherwise it is simply ornamental, like that tall skiny guy in a shiney white kung fu uniform who looked like he was swimming on land doing Ba Gua at the Wan Fe Hung. He took a medal in forms .... didn't fight.

My girlfriend, who never been to a martial arts event before, though the whole thing was a joke. A week later she's still dancing around making fun, striking "kung fu" poses ... she doesn't look half bad. She might have taken bronze.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you and blame the teachers.

I understand that business is business and you have to draw in as many students as possible. But most don't train realistically out of fear that only a handful would show up .... but what do they do? They *******ize something they love. Maybe they were taught that way, too.

But if you love it and use it you question it .... and hopefully advance it.

If you really love it make it right, maybe sacrafice a little and do the right thing.... that type of quite strenght is the real power behind martial arts.

[Ray Pina]

Lee Kwan Shan, our posts crossed. My last few were unneeded.

Please know that none of these posts were also directed towards you. Just know I love this stuff and am only thinking out loud.

It won't change the way things are heading .... it merely means I have a lot of reflection to do this month (recovering from injury).

[Lee Kwan Shan]

Well I think forms can be important. I think people don't understand what forms are for. Obviously hand to hand is where the real effectiveness lies, however forms can be essential. Doing a form properly can teach you the fundamentals on switching through stances quickly and accurately, putting proper power into your strikes, and moving how you're "supposed to". I put that in quotes because in real combat there's no rules. But still, above all, forms are guidelines in which you can get any technique or movement that you'd like to out of them. The students will ask me "if I'm doing this in the form, can I put my arm here and block this and that" and I'm like "is that what you get out of it? Then yes, you can do that, as long as it's 'combat effective'". I mean yes, in order to really become good at fighting you need to fight, but forms are a good way to help remember technques. If I didn't have forms, I'd just have to log away 250 different techniques for my tests, and my memory SUCKS. It's not something to get into HUGE depth with, but forms are a good start. Plus they're fun as all hell to do when you're bored. Beacuse like I said, I dont' just take kung fu ONLY for the combat, I take it because of the culture and history, above all. Forms are part of Kung Fu's culture and history.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not dissing your way, there's nothing wrong with thatl. I think different teaching methods are good for different people, I'm just saying that in my personal experience forms have been good as long as they're done properly.

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I agree with you and blame the teachers.

I understand that business is business and you have to draw in as many students as possible. But most don't train realistically out of fear that only a handful would show up .... but what do they do? They *******ize something they love. Maybe they were taught that way, too.

If you really love it make it right, maybe sacrafice a little and do the right thing.... that type of quite strenght is the real power behind martial arts.

See, I think you can have the best of both worlds here. Yes, you need to train many students, but each student's road is unique. you don't have to necessarily B'dize the art, you just decide along with the student what path they want to take, and be upfront about the fact that they must qualify to move up and learn more. It might take one person 10 years to learn what may take only 1 for another, but I don't think you are B'dizing the art unless you start moving them up in ranks and giving them more complex stuff without them actually being able to handle it.

Unfortunately, I think this is the way kung fu will have to evolve. Face it, Western civilization doesn't need to learn combat arts to survive. For the most part, Kung Fu isn't NEEDED like it was 400 years ago. But IMHO, the art can still survive. The instructor can make his money by teaching many people the basics of kung fu, and hand-select a few dedicated individuals to pass on the true secrets and beauty of the art. I feel that's how my sifu does it. You have to actually qualify to be taught something more than the basics.

[Ray Pina]

"hand-select a few dedicated individuals to pass on the true secrets and beauty of the art. I feel that's how my sifu does it. You have to actually qualify to be taught something more than the basics."

I think this thinking is poison.

I have been on all sides of this ... black belt, junior, senior and junior again.

It is dangerous at it's core ... that there are two distinct training course: the broad one (useless and given to the masses) and the real one (reserved for "seniors.")

Why not train it right, right from the beginning? Otherwise you're admittedly waisting people's time and money .... people who turned to you in trust to train them.

This is not to say that there is not begginer, intermediate and advanced. But the best schools I've attended teach the same thing to everyone present. If it's a little too advanced you at least get to see it, hear it, and store it away till later.

But even better, nothing shouldn't be understood by someone off the street .... this isn't rocket science. We're talking about boxing, boxing engaged in the most part by the uneduacted, peasant class.

Look at boxing, wrestling and fencing .... only stupid "martial artists" think this way. And yet, they procude the least.

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

It is dangerous at it's core ... that there are two distinct training course: the broad one (useless and given to the masses) and the real one (reserved for "seniors.")

Why not train it right, right from the beginning? Otherwise you're admittedly waisting people's time and money .... people who turned to you in trust to train them.

This is not to say that there is not begginer, intermediate and advanced. But the best schools I've attended teach the same thing to everyone present. If it's a little too advanced you at least get to see it, hear it, and store it away till later.


I don't think I communicated myself correctly in my last post. I agree w/ you--I don't believe in changing the curriculum, I just meant that if someone is only interesting in staying a beginner all their life that you shouldn't turn them away. That doesn't mean they get a pat on the back and told that they are doing things OK the wrong way--still correct them every time and strive for them to acheive perfection--but I don't think one is necessarily becoming a McDojo if they allow for the person who is satisfied w/ being an eternal beginner.

But the eternal beginner shouldn't be taught everything about the system if they aren't going to master the basics. If they are comfortable paying you $$ for just sticking w/ the basics, then so be it.

[red5angel]

so evolution fist, what I want to know is why, if you see this degradation in traditional kungfu, why aren't you fighting that instead of giving up and moving to something else? In theory, you are supposed to be learning from a real martial artist, a real fighter correct? So what's stopping you from learning what he has and passing it on? Keeping it real so to speak.

[Ray Pina]

I think at the core of the issue is: WHAT IS KUNG FU?

What I mean is, take football. Everyone goes to practice but not everyone plays. You have the starters, and then you have guys that might be good but not good enough to start (maybe there's a very talented guy in their position already) so they play specialty teams and then there are bench warmers. But everyone hits the sled. Everyone runs the sprints, lifts the weights and scrimages. They are there to play football.

Those that can't handle that play soccer.:D

But what is "Kung Fu"?

You have the form collectors (armed and fake armed), you have the tree huggers, you have the mouth boxers and, in the vast minority, you have fighters.

Now, if you could balance the forms and "health" the way football incorporates weights and sprints, then you have something.

Guys who don't want to be tackled but lift or run well join powerlifting or track.

Guys who do forms well but are scared to fight can join wushu or gymnastics. Others can join Chinese medicine programs.

But by trying to please everybody, you actually help no one.

[Lee Kwan Shan]

I don't think you should necessarily turn somebody away if they don't want to learn anything more than the basics, but I'm just confused.... why would somebody think that way? I'm sorry, I just don't see how somebody could pay money to learn something and not want to at least TRY to go that far. I mean, obviously you can decide not to have a career and make a life out of it, but I mean if you go into a place with the pre-determined plan to not get past the basics it's like you're giving up already. Because I mean what if you've got a natural talent for it so you progress really fast and well? The only way you could stay an "eternal beginner" is by deliberately trying to. I think you shouldn't go into something with any future plans at all, so to speak. I think you should just try it out and take it one step at a time. That's what I did. I started Kung Fu when I was 15, and I didn't think I'd be there long. 4 years later I'm still there. Wow, I can't believe I've been there that long, haha!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Lee Kwan Shan
I don't think you should necessarily turn somebody away if they don't want to learn anything more than the basics, but I'm just confused.... why would somebody think that way? I'm sorry, I just don't see how somebody could pay money to learn something and not want to at least TRY to go that far. I mean, obviously you can decide not to have a career and make a life out of it, but I mean if you go into a place with the pre-determined plan to not get past the basics it's like you're giving up already. Because I mean what if you've got a natural talent for it so you progress really fast and well? The only way you could stay an "eternal beginner" is by deliberately trying to. I think you shouldn't go into something with any future plans at all, so to speak. I think you should just try it out and take it one step at a time. That's what I did. I started Kung Fu when I was 15, and I didn't think I'd be there long. 4 years later I'm still there. Wow, I can't believe I've been there that long, haha! Some people are lazy. That's about it. Everybody who signs up for classes wants to know kung fu...but only a small percentage of them want to learn kung fu. There is a difference, afterall.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Some people are lazy. That's about it. Everybody who signs up for classes wants to know kung fu...but only a small percentage of them want to learn kung fu. There is a difference, afterall.

I think you're right. But of course there are also those people that seem to be at the "perpetual beginner" stage because of various other reasons. Some of them might have limited physical ability. Some of them just might not take to the stuff very quickly. Not everyone who seems to not advance all that quickly does so through laziness.

[Ray Pina]

I'm in a frustrating place right now.

I'm good enough to want to go out and fight, but not good enough or close to "having" my master's technique, so I get no support.

My master is a good man and cares about his students and doesn't want anyone fighting. His students are mostly doctors and lawyers, not the black eye type ... I have one good training partner, a Judo/BJJ guy. He's spent some time with Gracie clan in NYC. He trains with his master now and we mix it up.

My master doesn't want me fighting yet, says I need about another year, but I feel I need to go out and test ... so do so a lone.

I enter San Da events and have to scrap up a corner man. I enter tournaments like last weekend with a plane white t-shirt (so as not to pollute my master's reputation) and get disqualified. You fight a guy in a yellow t-shirt and 3 out of the 4 judges are wearing the same t-shirt, ect..

So I want to do what you say. At the same time I'm trying to balance not ****ing off my master but fulfilling my obligation to myself.

Any advice?

....

PS
Trust me. My master can fight. As someone who fights, I've seen him take out guys more than twice his weight and more than half his age.

I'm 30, 200lbs., and I'm scared of him when he charges in. Real fright. Real flight mode.... the guy is 64, 145lbs.

[red5angel]

the last video I saw of you, wasn't that at a sanda event? Why can't you just take what you're learning to those events and fight under that? Or do you fele that your art is incomplete and you need to go elsewhere to fill the gaps? No slam intended by the way, just curious.

[SPJ]

The ultimate answer comes from you.

How much do you want to put in your practice?

True. In the time of laws and guns, people practice KF for health and fitness for the most part.

It is indeed up to the student. If he or she wants to be a fighter in real life or in a ring.

I have relatives retired from the forces.

For them, KF study is as serious as a matter of life and death. You and your teammates' lives depend on your training.

For the civilians, we are mainly concerned with health, fitness and some basic skills of self defense.

In short, Kung Fu is as deep or as far as you may take it.

So how far you would go, it is entirely depends on you.

Everybody may enjoy the masterpiece music and fine food. But not everybody may play the music well or be a good chef for that matter.

Peace.

:D

[Mutant]

Forms can be fun, I've done a lot of them over the years. I'm not so sure its the best method to train someone to be as competent a fighter as possible in the least amount of time. I don't really have the time or desire to keep up with my old forms, but it is fun to play around with them sometimes. I do miss Tai Chi forms, they just feel 'good'.:p But for training to fight I think theyre overrated by traditionalists. And not because 'we're all doing them wrong'. But they have their place, as stated. Kung fu has evolved to be more than just fighting, and many people enjoy these other cultural and performance related aspects of it, and it enriches their lives and that is great.
But I wouldnt nessesarily call it an 'evolution', but maybe a 'devolution'. Kung fu has evolved to relfect its common use in these times, in much the same way that a Miniature Dachsund or Pug dog devolved from the wolf.
Me, I don't really care what other people (outside my training partners) refer to as their 'kung fu' training. Its just an old Chinese word that means a million different things to millions of different people. What it often refers to is a joke, but there is some good kung fu out there thats heart-attack serious.

Yes agreed, must kung fu tournaments are fruitier than the Circ du Sole' and belong in the comedy genre. But there are other venures to test your skills, such as MMA, San Da, etc, for those who really do want to fight.

Gotta run, later.

[Ray Pina]

Red, that is what I'm doing.

That last fight taught me a lot, about pacing myself in the ring. Also pointed out that I needed clinche work. My master has showed me some good stuff to counter those clinches.

My master has the materials. It's just that, say, in an average class of 15 people, I'm the only one that wants to fight. On top of that, I'm not supposed to be going out yet so do it semi-secretly.

I'm guessing coach Ross's guys aren't doing taiji the three weeks leading up to a big fight.

This is my dilema. My master has what I want, but in the present class format it trickles out.

Like I said, it's a little frustrating right now. But at the same time I recognize that the only reason I'm frustrated is because in this short time he really has completely changed my fighting for the better.

I think I'm going to take some time off of fighting and really focus when I get back from my month off. Maybe add an extra day to my training. See what happens for next Sept.'s San Da throw down.

[Suntzu]

Any advice? sounds familiar........ not really advice... but what i did.... i left...

[Ray Pina]

You know, I hear myself .... and I spoke to my brother and father about this who have both watched me grow up competing in karate ... and the logical thing is to go find someplace else to train, where I will be 100% focused on competitive fighting while I still have time.

If I heard someone else saying these things, I'd say, "Dude, you're not getting what you want as a paying customer. Move on."


But knowing all of this, I really would encourage anyone to check out this man's technique -- it is super impressive. It would be hard to call someone else teacher after this.

I'm kind of resolving myself to viewing it as University. I go there to get theory, to hear new things and think about them. But just as the professor will not spot me $200,000 grand for my business idea, I have to go and do the grunt work myself.

On the other hand I'm being impatient. When it comes to my master's style, I'd say I'm like a green belt. Maybe in two more years I'd be a low brown belt and much better prepared.

Like I said earlier, I'm good enough now to go out and compete. Win or lose, I haven't been "beat" -- know what I mean? I can protect myself out there; I can protect my head.

I'm going on a nice surf trip to just rest my head -- this and my friend dying has been stressfull -- and hopefully return fresh.

Right now my training is like a girl that I love but am no longer excited to see. I just can't drag my a$$ all the way to Chinatown right now.

[Suntzu]

i tried the part time training thing..... it might work for you.... find some place that focuses on ring theory... conditioning... etc... and get you techniques from where you are now........ but in MY situation.... it became harder and harder to balance it..... then i got my ass kicked and it made my decision ALOT easier....

[red5angel]

efist, have you talked to your instructor about your strong desire to fight? Maybe talked to him about one on one classes so you can get the stuff you're not getting class?

[Ray Pina]

My master is old school. His opinion is that when you really have "it", when you have his type of power (a strang heaviness) then it's not fighting anymore ... he calls it beating.

He relates it to carrying a gun. You're not scared.

My master also doesn't care for competition. He doesn't view martial art as sport, he views it as kill or be killed. He wasn't happy when he saw my San Da footage. He said the guy had an opportunity to really hurt my kneck on one take down, that I got lucky.... he though it was viscious .... from my end I didn't see that or feel that, but I agree: two people beating each others head with kicks, punches and elbows is not exactly basketball. It is something else.

My master's aim is to take a mixed team of Americans back to China to beat them. I do see my classmates' power increasing. His daughter, who's about 100lbs, hits about as hard as me. She's very powerful.

Where I differ, is that I believe having a gun isn't enough. You still need to have the balls to pull it out, the aim and nohow, the field experience.

I believe in his heart he understands this, because I've talked to older martial artists who knew my master back in the day and they say he was a real pain in the a$$, pretty fierce and always fighting.

You have to understand, this is an older man not seaking glory through his students. When someone challenges the school he doesn't send out a senior or two first to tire them out, he either pauses the class and abliges the visitor in front of everyone, or if we're in the middle of a drill, he'll use some space on the side with all of us eyeing of course.

This kind of thing isn't rare, and has been increasing lately actually ... which is good for him and his business and he deserves it.

I actually feel bad about some of my posts. Don't want to seem like I'm airing dirty laundry because the man's legit. And I know I can stary studying at Gracie's tonight if I wanted to -- it's the same distance as to my master's -- or one of Gracie's black belt UFC fighters has a gym a mile from where I work.

But to be honest, I've played with these guys and they are good but it's because they are big, younfg and train very hard. My master is very good but he is small, old and takes it easy. He has something else.

It's what I want. But I'm being inpatient and a pain in the a$$ myself. I might just have to bow out of fighting for like a year, maybe even two. But if I can emerge at 32 or even 33 with his stuff ... well, that's a good 20 years of a$$ kicking I'll have in me. If he could do it at his age and size, I should be able to as well. In fact, he didn't "get his good stuff" until he was 40 something.

Still though, there is a lot of pressure in the martial arts to show something now. So maybe I'll just shut my mouth for a while and chill.