Gimme some combos

[tsb]

My WC brothers and I have put together a weekly full contact training night. After a few weeks of rather unorganized training, I have suggested we take a more practical, progressive approach.

I would like some suggestions from anyone for basic combinations that we can learn to counter. At this point, I'm looking for simple and common combinations. A few boxing combos I'm thinking of are jab/cross, jab/hook, jab/cross/hook to body, etc. I looking for punch/kick combos as well.

We are going at anywhere from 1/2 to 3/4 speed using headgear w/faceguards, grappling gloves, and other padding such a forearm, elbow and shin pads. It is my hope to eventually up the speed, intensity, and complexity as we all learn what works against what.

Any of your experiences from similar training or suggestions as to make the most of these nights would be also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[ng mui rules]

well use lots of tan da and guan da. you have to keep the pressure on the other person while not getting hit. use bill sau, it will work well. lop da will work well on jabs. as far as boxing combos to practice defecfe for- a boxer will slip under your punches so be ready for this when he slips under, he will go with a hook to the body, then a hook to the head with the same hand, then a cross with the other arm. kicking combos, low kick to back of leg, cross, hook with other arm. i hope this helps you a bit. email me if you want more info. my sifu learned boxing as a teen before he learned w.c. so he knows how to deal with it. wingchun_kf_squirrel@hotmail.com

[tsb]

I guess none of you are the sparring type, eh?

[kungfu cowboy]

What does "ttt" mean? :confused:

"I ain't got time for no jibber-jabber!"-----Mr. T

[aelward]

Hello,

It looks like your path in training has mirrored ours to some extent. Originally, we had people jump right into sparring after they had been doing free chi sao for a month or so; we found that many froze up, got stiff, or otherwise had tons of trouble getting into the flow of free sparring. Therefore, we started using "pre-sparring" drills that focused on position, distance, and timing. The first set which we are still working on contains mostly boxing combinations. And we, like you, started half-speed and slowly worked up, and used basic jabs before building up to jab-cross and what not.

Just in case you haven't already: if you have a boxer (or a former one) in your group, then all the better (we are lucky in that we have four people who have learned boxing from previous training in MT, boxing, and san shou); first have him teach everone basic punches and footwork, because one of the biggest mistakes some people make is come up with beautiful counters to unrealistic attacks. Those combinations are fast and snappy.

When you are working those simple combinations, be sure to have the "boxer" to attack from different angles so that you get the idea of position, and also throw "blanks" for understanding distance.

Here are some of the ones we have been working on:
jab
jab-jab
jab-cross
jab-hook
jab-cross-hook
jab-cross-hook-cross

by the way, someone suggested doing a lap sao on a jab: it is doable, but probably not without a lot of practice.

Other combinations to consider are:
wild swings
choy lay fut/white crane style attacks
kickboxing attacks (jab-cross-thrust kick, etc)

By the way, where are you training in Santa Cruz? I didn't realize there was anything but WT there...

[tsb]

aelward: It is WT. Curious as to what that last sentence meant?

And I agree that a lop against a jab would be tough to employ. Unfortunately, we are a small group and don't have any former boxers or Thai boxers among us. I'm doing my best to work on my own combos and I do know my footwork, both boxing and wing chun, is pretty bad.

Haymakers are a given to train against. I was thinking that a lead hook to the head or the body would be another possibility.

Do you train against MT round kicks to the thigh? I know I can't throw kicks properly or quickly enough to imitate a Thai boxer.

kf cowboy: ttt=to the top

[kungfu cowboy]

Thanks! :)

"I ain't got time for no jibber-jabber!"-----Mr. T

[aelward]

Hello tsb,

> It is WT. Curious as to what that last sentence
> meant?

I meant that I knew that there was a WT group in Santa Cruz, but hadn't heard of anyone else doing WC/VT/WT down there. I am also aquainted with Paul Wang, he's a really great guy with a good head on his shoulders!

Since none in your training group has ever done boxing, keep on trying, but even if your solutions do work, take it with a grain of salt until you can test it on someone who has done some boxing. Maybe you could network with some boxers in the area? (Of course, you gotta take this one carefully, because there are plenty that would just want to pound your head in).

I was wondering, don't your lat sao programs deal with boxer-type attacks?

> I was thinking that a lead hook to the head or
> the body would be another possibility.

In order to throw a nasty short hook, you have to be at very close range, and the arm should be bent just as if you were doing the lan sao from chum kiu; the power comes from a snapping pivot on the lead foot. It is a straight attack from the side, with only a minimal amount of arcing. Don't expect this kind of attack from lead, as much as from a combination off of a jab or cross. At long range, you may see something that follows an arcing path, but the arm is bent at over a 90 degree angle for added reach. It is a lot easier to deal with than those hooks at close range (though I might add that in my first sparring experience with a boxer, he tagged me with that lead "long" hook two or three times before I figured out a solution).

The one thing you want to avoid if your opponent is significant bigger than you is chain punching against a round attack. You may hit your opponent a dozen times, but if you can't take him off balance (and sometimes, even if you do), you still might eat that hit.

> Do you train against MT round kicks to the
> thigh?

Luckily, we have an MT/WC from our federation, visiting from the east coast. He has taught us how to throw Thai round kicks, though of course, we aren't nearly as good at it as he.

But one thing you can try against both those and virtually any kick is jamming the lead leg with a thrust kick. Another thing you can try against an MT round kick is to angle back out of the way (though this might go against the WT idea of "always forward"... it can also save you from lots of pain :P ), and try to come back in before he resets (not easy vs. a good practitioners)

feel free to e-mail me at: aelward@hotmail.com if you want.

[tsb]

Thanks, aelward.

I spent some online time over at the Ving Tsun Athletic Association forum last week and I think it has made me a little defensive. ;)

Paul Wang is one of my sihings and he does a great job when he is able to come down to SC.

As far as the lat sao programs, they do deal with boxing and MT type attacks. Up until now, however, I haven't had the chance to try with protective gear.

I got the idea for the lead hook from watching a pro bout the other night on ESPN2. It was used as an entry tech from distance. The short hook is another story altogether, and a tough one when combined with a boxer's agility and head movement.

We are taught to jam kicks or move forward inside the arc of the kick if possible. With the speed of some kicks, though, stepping in sometimes seems like a risky and painful proposition.

Another question for you: Your profile states some BJJ experience. Do you incorporate takedowns and grappling into your sparring? How do you feel BJJ combines with WC, if at all?

Thanks again.

[aelward]

hello tsb,

> I spent some online time over at the Ving Tsun
> Athletic Association forum last week and I
> think it has made me a little defensive.

Hahah, yes, that is a very inflamatory board. Considering that most of the posters badmouth more than they train, I wouldn't let their babble bother you. I'm all for living and let living, learning from all approaches. Although a handful of WT people I have met have tried to shove the "WT is better because it is more modern" down my throat, the majority of the ones at least keep their sentiments to themselves.

> We are taught to jam kicks or move forward
> inside the arc of the kick if possible.

In my previous post, I said chain punches don't always unbalance someone, but a thrust kick to someone who is already up on one leg usually does (in my experience). Sounds like a good strategy (and one that has been used by WC people for quite a while). One thing that I get nailed by sometimes is the short range knee, which I am supposed to feel from constant chi sao practice... well, I don't feel it, so I guess it means I need to practice more :P

> Another question for you: Your profile states
> some BJJ experience. Do you incorporate
> takedowns and grappling into your sparring?

No, not really. I learn whatever I can from other styles not so much to incorporate them into my WC (with the exception of standing chin-na), but to understand how to defeat them. My groundfighting is probably enough to overcome a larger, untrained opponent, but a smaller guy with a decent foundation in grappling could easily tie me into a pretzle on the ground.

Luckily, our group also has one groundfighter, a sanshou fighter, and a former judoka who work with us on takedowns and anti-takedowns (plus my sambo/BJJ instructor, who is also visiting for the summer... happens to be the girlfriend of the MT/WC guy). Just like with the boxing, we all work on these basic things so that the feeds are a little more realistic.

One drill we use is: starting with two partners in a right lead stance with right arms crossed, one will do a lap sao, then come back to the starting position; then the other will do the lap sao; this pattern repeats, until at sometime after the lap, one will shoot in for a double leg or single leg takedown; the other person will defend by using chain punches, footwork, whatever, to prevent the attacker's hands from getting a wrap. (This is something I learned from one of Sifu Francis Fong's student.)

When you are comfortable with this, you can also do it from chi sao, where one partner can go under an attack and go for a takedown, while the other person attempts to keep them off.

We also practice positioning as we are being taken down (just in case our previous defense failed), which involved not ending up in someone's guard or mounth, and leaving hands free for chain punching. One of the beauties of WC punches is that they don't require torque of the hip, and can still work quite nicely on the ground.

JK-
"Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."