innovation ****es alot of people off?

[Enforcer-]

I noticed that many styles are stuck in the my style is the best mentality and we only use our style's techniques because the rest can't possibly be as effective. Take my Muay thai class for example. When ever someone tries an innovative technique during clinch play (neck wrestling) like a judo sweep or a hip throw the instructor gets really ****ed off and calls it **** and tells you not to do it again. Same thing in sparring. WHen you try to trip the guy or use a different style kick sometimes the instructors watching get ****ed even though the tehnique is just as effective if not more than the standard thai kick. Like for instance sweeping their legs with your foot opr kicking savate style front ward from the inside (never mind these things are hard to explain) but anyway the martial art community is still stuck in the my style is best crap.

[SevenStar]

I think you're trolling, but I'll bite.

with the muay thai example, it's because they are training for the ring. you can do takedowns in muay thai, but only of a certain variety. you can't sweep or do any throw that involves loading the person onto your body, i.e. a hip toss. Consequently, your "innovation" is something that will get you DQed in the ring. Even still, I can't see a coach getting p1ssed about that unless you are doing it repeatedly.

as far as kicking variation goes, there is a kenpo guy in our class who uses the seapu (what we called it in jun fan - I have no idea what it's called in kenpo). he's great with it, and we like him doing it - it gives us something extra to work against, even though it travels the same path as a teep, so we don't have to do anything special to defend it.

what is the "standard thai kick"? thai boxing has two classifications of kicks - thrusting and arcing. several kicks fall into it - back kicks, round kicks, front kicks, spinning heel kicks...many people who don't train thai boxing think that the teep, roundhouse and back kick are all there are, because that's all they really see.

[Enforcer-]

well my old muay thai place didnt focus on competition (hardly anyone compete) and when we sparred we basically did anything we wanted. But someone complained that I was kicking at this guys knee and I might hurt him or something because I would kick straight at it while my foot was horizontal ala savate (which I did all the time at my old gym). And the competition is a bunch of bull**** compared to san shou. At least in san shou you see many different throws (in Muay thai you see no throws or the throws are done accidentally) and in san shou I see many different kinds of kicks including sidekicks and spin kicks etc. I'm just getting bored of doing the same thing all the time. Kicking with the shin. And the thai clinching is jsut grabbing the neck and kneeing and switching positions over and over. I like to train for the street and to be able to use various moves for various situations.

[Kaitain(UK)]

It's called making sure your cup is empty - when I train BJJ I don't try and use taiji during the clinch during the class. When I'm sparring with friends I use everything I know, but in a class I think it's pretty offensive to discard what you are being taught in favour of something else - certainly when you haven't sought prior permission.

When I'm teaching taiji I get very frustrated with the "what if I did this move I know from my other style? Doesn't that work better?" crowd. Once you know a style, then feel free to play with it and change bits of it - but at least do the style the basic courtesy of learning it properly first. Some movements just don't work when you start a new art - you have to put the time in to get them down pat.

It sounds like you need to change art - the art isn't going to change for you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
well my old muay thai place didnt focus on competition (hardly anyone compete) and when we sparred we basically did anything we wanted.

doesn't matter. it's stull muay thai. same rules apply.

But someone complained that I was kicking at this guys knee and I might hurt him or something because I would kick straight at it while my foot was horizontal ala savate (which I did all the time at my old gym).

you can kick to the outside or inside of the knee, but can't kick it straight on for obvious reasons.

And the competition is a bunch of bull**** compared to san shou.

then compete and dominate the circuit. Until then, your just talking out of your arse.


At least in san shou you see many different throws (in Muay thai you see no throws or the throws are done accidentally) and in san shou I see many different kinds of kicks including sidekicks and spin kicks etc.

you don't get points for throws, that's why. to throw will do about the same thing that an advantage does in tennis - in the event of a draw, my throw will put me slightly over the top and give me the win.

I'm just getting bored of doing the same thing all the time. Kicking with the shin. And the thai clinching is jsut grabbing the neck and kneeing and switching positions over and over. I like to train for the street and to be able to use various moves for various situations.

when did you start training at all? when you were unmatchable, didn't you say that you weren't training? Regardless, if you are bored, then switch schools. As far as the clinch goes, it sounds like you aren't you are being taught right, if you are being taught at all.

[Enforcer-]

I wouldn't want to compete with those stupid rules.

[blooming lotus]

I understand what Kaitain's saying and I really enjoyed his comment. I know personally that when I chop styles and pick up knew ones, I like to empty my cup myself and take the system I'm learning at the time for every ounce I can glean from it and nothing else. If I want to play with incorperating that into previous styles, or get creative about it, I'll do it at home.
besides, I always feel that to do that in class is an insult to my shifu and to the art.

Imagine 7, that half way through teaching a kata, your students break into a plum blossom!!

WT???!!!
:mad: :mad:

BL

[Enforcer-]

Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
It's called making sure your cup is empty - when I train BJJ I don't try and use taiji during the clinch during the class. When I'm sparring with friends I use everything I know, but in a class I think it's pretty offensive to discard what you are being taught in favour of something else - certainly when you haven't sought prior permission.

When I'm teaching taiji I get very frustrated with the "what if I did this move I know from my other style? Doesn't that work better?" crowd. Once you know a style, then feel free to play with it and change bits of it - but at least do the style the basic courtesy of learning it properly first. Some movements just don't work when you start a new art - you have to put the time in to get them down pat.

It sounds like you need to change art - the art isn't going to change for you.

Bruce Lee as well as basically the whole jeet kune do community disagrees with u.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
I wouldn't want to compete with those stupid rules.

typical...

[blooming lotus]

but since we're not talking jkd, I think most of the rest of us, might agree.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
Bruce Lee as well as basically the whole jeet kune do community disagrees with u.

Actually, no they don't.

[Kaitain(UK)]

OK - that's why Dan Inosanto went and trained to black belt in BJJ. Bet he didn't throw in other things that occurred to him until after he'd understood what he'd been taught.

Good JKD people appreciate that to take what is good from a system, you have to learn it properly first. Good that you feel able to speak for the entire JKD community though. And a dead man.

[Enforcer-]

well I did learn the thai kciks and stuff properly. And do us eit but I like to throw other thigns as well to the mix. And Bruce Lee said "take what is sueful to yourself and disregard all rest" And isn't Matt Thornton's philosophy of his gym to have freedom to express any technique and drill under an alive envioerment?

[SevenStar]

but if you don't know the system, you don't know what is useful, do you? look at the jkd guys - they have some sort of base - lee had 5 years of wing chun, and that was his base. innosanto uses fma as his base, as does vunak. I believe vunak and richardson are also both heavy into trapping. When I was in jun fan/jkd our base was fma and trapping. I personally hate trapping. If I were to ever go back to jkd/jun fan and get certified to teach, my base would be thai boxing.

Establish your base, then alter it as you see fit.

[Kaitain(UK)]

It's not complicated - respect the art and respect the teacher. If the teacher doesn't want you mixing other techniques into training, then don't.

If you don't like it, go to a school that does do what you want.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by BAI HE
Lkfmdc,
Take it easy on Unmatchable, he's only had 3 mos. of Muay Thai and 3 Mos. of Judo. You can't eat the trolls until their ripe.




Originally posted by unmatchable
Make that 8 months of Muay Thai and 3 months of Judo.

This was back in january. In a little over a year of training, you haven't learned anything from the clinch other than knees?

[Enforcer-]

Well I can turn them and knee and I know sweeps and trips but they are illegal so I cant practise them much. Basically Ive been only training 3 -4 huors a week lately because of my school schedule which in a few months will change. Also I'm getting bored with muay thai. Id like to learn some jointlocks, sweeps/trips, throws, Restraining techniques rather than me ebat u to a pulp, etc. And every time I spar I come home with bruised up shins and legs so I cant train again for a few days.

[WinterPalm]

Enforcer, why are you paying for lessons to learn from someone when you profess to have a better way of conducting the class. Regurgitating Bruce Lee quotes don't matter at all, he isn't around to teach you, but your Sifu or instructor or coach or whatever is. You came to him and signed up for Muai Thai, that is what you are getting. You don't go to a class on learning French and complain because you aren't allowed to toss out English verbs or German adjectives. IF you train in a bunch of styles, learn them in their context, then apply the mash with friends or sparring partners on your own time, or at least tell the teacher what you are doing and seek permission.

[Shinobi22]

last warning shinobi22. Next time, you are banned.

[Enforcer-]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Enforcer, why are you paying for lessons to learn from someone when you profess to have a better way of conducting the class. Regurgitating Bruce Lee quotes don't matter at all, he isn't around to teach you, but your Sifu or instructor or coach or whatever is. You came to him and signed up for Muai Thai, that is what you are getting. You don't go to a class on learning French and complain because you aren't allowed to toss out English verbs or German adjectives. IF you train in a bunch of styles, learn them in their context, then apply the mash with friends or sparring partners on your own time, or at least tell the teacher what you are doing and seek permission.

the only reason I signed up for muay thai because its the only style close to my house (I don't have a driver license yet since I failed the exam). And I have no friends or at least ones into martial arts or brothers so I can't experiment that way.

[norther practitioner]

He might just be suffering from the short attention span blues....

at that age, I can understand.

Sometimes I forget that there are 16 year olds on here, not just 35 year olds that act 16.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
Well I can turn them and knee and I know sweeps and trips but they are illegal so I cant practise them much. Basically Ive been only training 3 -4 huors a week lately because of my school schedule which in a few months will change. Also I'm getting bored with muay thai. Id like to learn some jointlocks, sweeps/trips, throws, Restraining techniques rather than me ebat u to a pulp, etc. And every time I spar I come home with bruised up shins and legs so I cant train again for a few days.

what about elbows in the clinch? variations of knees? offbalancing? underhooking? having control of the neck isn't the only way to clinch fight. use of the shoulder and very tight punches (sometimes referred to as dirty boxing)? legal takedowns?

if your shins are bruised every practice you are doing something wrong. In addition, you should invest in shin guards.

[Enforcer-]

We don't work on elbows nor on underhooking because its either against the competition rules or not muay thai like.

and I know how to turn them and unbalance them and all that. But I still think throwing is alot mroe effective. I mean after you throw a guy on hsi head from a lcinhcg or sweep him you can jump on his head like a trampoline.

[Enforcer-]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
He might just be suffering from the short attention span blues....

at that age, I can understand.

Sometimes I forget that there are 16 year olds on here, not just 35 year olds that act 16.


who the **** are you? YOU DONT EVEN ****ING KNOW ME OR MY LIFE DIP****.

if you tried instulting me in my presence I would break your face.

[Enforcer-]

I think Muay thai isn't that effective for me because I realized modt fights start with a sucker attack of some sort and a smart fighter who wants to win 100% will come up to you, ot if it starts face to face and quickly grab your neck pulling it toward him with one hand, and knee your nuts. Bam fights over, no matter what size or strengh or experience you have. And if you dont go down with the first groins trike he can throw one again or grab your sholders pulling them in and throw it or a muay thai clinch type of grap and throw it. And he can kick your head while you fall. Nobody squares off in a ring and gets ready to fight it could happen any instant, and if you start it youll be held liable.

[Shaolinlueb]

but we all know luebstyle is the best style ;)