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View Full Version : Here is a real post alot of you would like to read...It is about how Ng Mui is fake...



Martial Joe
08-14-2001, 06:45 AM
I dont know if its true,and I dont know who wrote it...but wow,it was pretty interesting...


The Secret History of Wing Chun: The Truth Revealed

Although the world itself has not gotten smaller, life in the
Information Technology Age (via the media of email and Internet) has made
contact and
communication with people around the globe easier. Consequently, it is now
harder for information and research to be constrained or concealed, or for
only one perspective to be put forward. Most importantly, it means that
certain myths will not be perpetuated. Information pointing to the
historical origins of Wing Chun kung fu is one of them...

"The first casualty when war comes is truth." -- Hiram Johnson

Put simply, the harsh truth is this: the myth of the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui
and her disciple Yim Wing Chun, the supposed founders of the Wing Chun
system, is just that - a myth. As the internet has brought information more
readily to us, it has come to light that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing
Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and
the identities of the political rebels who actually developed it.

After almost 400 years, mounting evidence is pointing to the truth of Wing
Chun's creation and evolution. The question being; is the kung fu world
ready for it?

There is no doubt that the information which is about to be disclosed will
ruffle feathers to say the least. This is mainly because many Wing Chun
instructors throughout the world are naively, and through no fault of their
own, imparting a romanticized, fantastical history of the Wing Chun system.
They are telling and retelling a story that is little more than a
fairytale.

A view of the traditional legends with an eye on history reads as an even
more fascinating point of view. And no less deserving of the term
`legendary'...

Secrets in the Shadows of Shaolin
As near as history can testify, Wing Chun was developed around 400 years
ago
in a time of civil unrest. Between 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled a
Chinese nation where 10% of the population (the Manchus) ruled over 90% of
the population (the Hons). To maintain control over the Hons, the Manchus
ruled with an iron fist. Aggression and oppression were the cornerstones of
the Dynasty and the Hons were banned from using weapons or training in the
martial arts. Thus, in order to overthrow their oppressors, rebel activity
was instigated by martial arts masters who were in hiding.

Rebel activity developed rapidly in the Buddhist monasteries, which were
largely left alone by the Manchus out of respect for the Buddhist culture
and religion. These Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries were ideal places for
renegades to conceal themselves. They simply shaved their heads and donned
the monastic robes of the disciples of the temple. During the day, the
rebels would earn their keep by doing chores around the temple. At night,
they would gather to formulate their plans to overthrow the Manchus.

There are some that maintain that Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries possessed no
political leanings. They further emphasize that the Buddhist teachings of
these monasteries would have prevented their supporting rebels and secret
societies. Such a position is emotional at best with no grounding in
historical fact. Religious leaders throughout history, in both the Western
as well as the Eastern world, have influenced politics and government since
the beginning of time. Churches have forever harbored political victims
sought by authorities which were deemed to be oppressive. In China's case,
serious precedent for such behavior on the part of the monasteries had
already been set 400 years earlier. As verified by Ving Tsun Museum
research, Jyu Yuhn Jeung, the man who led the Chinese revolt against the
Mongols and established the Ming Dynasty, was himself, a Buddhist monk.

Upon meeting, the revolutionaries identified themselves to each other with
a
secret hand-signal that would come to be the formal greeting or courtesy of
Wing Chun. In fact, the traditional greeting or courtesy common to many of
today's kung fu styles has two meanings. The first meaning recognizes the
style's Shaolin origins - the left hand symbolized the union of the Green
Dragon (the left hand) and the White Tiger (the right hand) - The fighting
animals of the Shaolin monks.

In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the
hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open
palm. It still retains its significance to Shaolin but it also refers to
the
secret society. In this context, the fist represents Yat (the Sun) and the
palm represents Yuet (the Moon). Combined, these two characters mean
"Bright" which reads and sounds like "Ming." This is the name of the
previous Dynasty - The one overthrown by the Manchurians who founded the
"Ching" Dynasty in its place. Hence, during the time of rebellion, when a
Wing Chun practitioner or secret society member saluted with a fist and
open
palm pushed toward you, they were saying "Return the Ming, overturn the
Ching." Obviously, this was not a sentiment shared by the Manchus.

Late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam
Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the
fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military
leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist
systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters,
realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in
purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently. And
secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing
fighting
systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers.
Thus,
Wing Chun was born.

Their spy rings compromised, the Manchus decided to eliminate the threat of
spreading rebel activity by simply exterminating the Siu Lam monks.
Eventually, the Southern Siu Lam Temple was burned and destroyed.

Extensive research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum points to a generation
of inheritors following the Southern temple's burning. Among them was a
gentleman named Cheung Ng (referred to as Tan Sao Ng in other texts). Of
this generation of inheritors, Cheung Ng is one to date that has proven to
have historically existed. After establishing the Beautiful Flower Society
Association (the precursor to the Red Opera and the public name for the Red
Flower Society) and providing Wing Chun training to the secret societies,
Cheung Ng went into hiding - Disappearing from the public eye to escape
Qing
Dynasty persecution.

He was hidden by distant relatives, a Fuk Gin business family named Chahn.
The Chahn Sih Sai Ga (Chan family) were well established and wealthy.
Through indirect action they were willing to help Cheung Ng. Staying with
the family for over a decade, Cheung Ng taught the family the art of Hung
Fa
Yi Wing Chun. It was preserved by the family for four generations before it
was taught to outsiders. The direct members of the Chahn family were never
directly involved with the secret societies themselves, resulting in a low
profile in Praise Spring Boxing history. The last generation of the Chahn
family to learn the art was a distant nephew, Huhng Gan Biu, who was a high
level secret society leader. In Qing archives as well as historical
research
into Chinese secret societies, a person by the name of Chahn Biu was
recorded as the leader of the Heaven and Earth Society. He was caught and
executed by the Qing authorities. Due to similar names appearing in
difference sources at around the same time-frame, there is much debate as
to
whether the Opera's Biu and the Heaven and Earth Society's Biu were the
same
person. According to members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan, Huhng Gan
Biu
was the 4th generation leader of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan and his Wing
Chun descendants have preserved the system through to the 8th generation
Master, Garrett Gee, and his 9th generation students in today's modern era.

It was at the fourth generation that history and truth parted ways, and the
myth of Wing Chun's origins was created.

The story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun.
The legend was told that among the survivors of the Shaolin/Siu Lam
massacres, was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have
been
the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial
art developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed
her
knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As
Yim
Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun. The
story spread and today many versions of it exist around the world.

However, there are three important considerations in regard to the story of
Ng Mui. Firstly, outside of the legend, there is no other evidence that Ng
Mui acted in the capacity of a kung-fu grandmaster or founder of a kung-fu
system. No records. No historical documents. Nothing. Secondly, it would
have been forbidden for a nun to live in, let alone train within, a
celibate
monastic environment like the Siu Lam /Shaolin Temples. Thirdly, and
perhaps
most importantly, after escaping from a life and death situation as a
revolutionary, it does not make sense that Ng Mui would teach an advanced
level fighting system to a local girl with romantic problems and no
connection to the revolution. At that time in Chinese history, the Qing
dynasty had devised a special form of punishment for traitors and rebels.
After being made to confess his or her crimes, the guilty party was
executed. Afterwards, Qing officials would hunt down members of the guilty
party's family down to nine generations and execute them as traitors as
well. Teaching Yim Wing Chun a martial art would directly put her life at
risk.

With regards to the Yim Wing Chun element of the legend, consider once more
the relevance of secret rebel societies. `Yim' can be translated to mean
`prohibit' or `secret.' The term `Wing Chun' referred to a geographic
location - The Siu Lam Wing Chun Tong (Always Spring Hall), where the rebels
perhaps practiced martial arts and orchestrated their seditious activities.
The use of the term Spring symbolized the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty and
Always referred to the reestablished dynasty lasting forever. After the
destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple and its Wing Chun Tong, the
survivors changed the character of Wing from Always to Praise. The term
'Praise' referred to the fact that the revolutionaries had to spread the
word about the revolution after the destruction of their base. Thus, `Yim
Wing Chun' was actually a code-name, meaning (protect) the secret art of
the
Wing Chun Hall.

If we now know that the destruction of the Siu Lam/Shaolin Temples
occurred,
but that the story of Ng Mui was a diversion, the question remains - Who
were the real custodians of the Wing Chun system?

Enter the Hung Suen
We do know that many (not the legendary five) monks and rebel leaders
escaped the Manchurian massacres, and to aid the secrecy of the system,
historical material was passed directly from teacher to student. Thus, the
elders told of two Siu Lam monks/rebels who survived the temple raids and
were able to keep their Wing Chun system alive. One of these was a monk - A
22nd generation Siu Lam Grandmaster, Yat Chum Dai Si, from the Northern
Shaolin temple. The other, Cheung Ng, was a rebel training under Yat Chum
Dai Si in the Southern Temple. Fleeing the Manchurian persecutors, Cheung
Ng
founded the Kihng Fa Wui Gun (Beautiful Flower Society), the roots of the
(in)famous Hung Suen (Red Boat) Opera Troupe.

Historically, we know that rebel activity flourished in the Red Boat Opera
Troupe. The Red Boats allowed talented stage performers, accomplished in
kung-fu and gymnastics, to form their own secret societies to overthrow the
Manchu Dynasty. The Troupes provided the ideal sanctuary for fleeing rebels
as the performers wore elaborate costumes and stage make-up, providing
excellent but natural/plausible disguises for them. Additionally, the
performers were known by their `stage-names' which they adopted to further
cloak their secret identities.

When Cheung Ng founded the Opera Troupe he became known as Tan Sao Ng - not
only a stage-name, but also a sly nod to his skillful deployment of the
Wing
Chun deflection/striking technique, Tan Sao.

An important fact to note is that so suspicious of the Manchus and their
spies were these secret societies, that the true identities of the leaders,
members and real nature of their activities were known only to an
inner-circle within the society. Thus, genuine knowledge of kung-fu was
passed only from a master to select, trusted disciples - Thus protecting
the
purity and origins of the system.

In conclusion
With the development of many different lineages of Wing Chun over the
centuries (over 10 are known to date), Wing Chun could simply be seen as a
generic name for a style with so many lineages. This is no different than
`karate' being a generic term to describe the various, yet similar Japanese
arts. However, this article has focussed on shedding light on the origins
of
Wing Chun. Indeed, to chart the development of the various lineages would
require an entire book more complete than anything currently written. A
complete historical and political analysis of Wing Chun's origins and
development is currently being compiled in book form by the Ving Tsun
Museum
and should be available through major publication sources within the next
twelve months.

A hypothesis that Cheung Ng was indeed the inheritor of the art from
Southern Temple, and the guiding force behind its employment as a complete
combat training system for rebels, certainly has more historical weight
behind it than the legend of a young girl. It represents a much more
plausible explanation of Wing Chun's roots considering the completeness of
the art in terms of total combat effectiveness. It also gels with the
historical background of the times preceding the Red Boat Opera travels.
However, as with all historical study, one hypothesis can give great
impetus
to further in-depth study, giving rise to even more revelations. In short,
more study grounded in the proper structure and atmosphere of true
historical research will get us even closer to reality. Hats off to the
Ving
Tsun Museum staff and researchers for moving our search into the realm of
scientific investigation and giving us another starting point for serious
research!

Myths are often created to simplify something or to disguise the true
nature
of the subject to make it more palatable to the mind. Consequently,
sometimes people want to believe the myths despite scientific or historical
evidence to the contrary. A fiction can be more comforting than the truth -
A fairytale easier to grasp than a treatise. The legend of Ng Mui and Yim
Wing Chun is a great story. It just isn't true.

In light of being told one story for centuries, it will be difficult for
some to accept the truth in minutes, hours or even months. But studying the
martial arts, and Wing Chun in particular, is a continual quest for truth.
Personal truth, social truth, spiritual truth, and yes, historical truth.

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Martial Joe
08-14-2001, 08:24 AM
Dont be lazy...read the whole thing...

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dzu
08-14-2001, 09:24 AM
There are lots of theories about the origins of WC. Read "Complete Wing Chun" and you'll see that some legends overlap and some don't.

As to the Theory that WC came from Shaolin: IMHO the only common information between all the lineages has been of the Red Boat Opera and the members Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa Min Kam, and other opera performers at the time. BEfore this, everything is speculation since the different lineages and written evidence diverges back to Ng Mui.

Also, some believe that Tan Sau Ng was not named because of the "tan sau" of Wing CHun, but because he suffered from a crippled arm due to polio. The "tan sau" character can be translated as meaning this crippled arm rather than "to spread or disperse" used in WC. Tan Sau Ng was the founder of the Opera, but he lived a good 70-100 years before the time period associated with Leung Yee Tai, et al.

As to the existence of the Southern Shaolin Temple, who can say? The Buddhist monks were very meticulous in their documentation and I don't believe that there has ever been mention of the Southern temple except in various legends linking it with MA seeking credibility via lineage.

IMHO WC can be traced back to the Red Boat Opera, but everything before that is speculation awaiting further proof. The opera allowed them to practice MA in plain sight without raising suspicion and their travelling via river allowed them to stay mobile and avoid discovery. Many of the performers were highly skilled MA as chinese opera involves MA, singing, acrobatics, etc. One theory is that these opera performers refined it using their cumulative MA experience. Another is that it came from Fukien White Crane origins or Ermei Buddhist Postures and was brought to the junks by someone seeking a place to hide out. Lots of different theories that it makes my head hurt so I let Sifu and Rene worry about it most of the time. I just try to practice my own WC!

regards,

Dzu

Tommy T.
08-14-2001, 02:59 PM
I must agree with Dzu. Most, if not all, of the history of WC is based purely on speculation. Ng Mui may or may not existed, and if she did, what role did she really play in the creation of WC? There is no evidence, real hard facts, to support either views. This "Secret History of Wing Chun" is, in my opinion, another speculative view. Please keep in mind, throughout Chinese history and even to this day, the masses were mostly iliterate. Finding documented history of anything would be difficult. Most of which is usually passed down orally from one generation to the next. And of course, altered along the way to suit the needs of the speaker.

But, how does knowing the "real history of WC" alter the mechanics and the concepts of our art? The art has been refined and tested since its inception, not because of "history", but by the practitioners themselves. Will knowing the "real history" change the way you train? Not for me.
Sure, it may help in marketing the art for some people. And it makes for great discussion. But for me, I like the legend of Ng Mui. And that is all it is, a legend.

ng mui rules
08-14-2001, 03:53 PM
i agree that "true history" of wing chun is also speculation, but interesting none the less. I prefer the story of ng mui and wing chun. i think it shows the spirit of the system and the important points about it. like that it isn't bassed on size and strength. you can become a proficient fighter in a short amount of time. its a good system for women ans there for also works well for men. about ng mui no being allowed into the monestary. im just pointing out that this was a buddhist monestary. these monks were not your half hearted "spiritual" people we find so offten today. the shaolin monks could take that small temptation. also other buddhist monestaries were co-ed. i guess im just rooting for ng mui since i like the story. well good day to you all.

BeiKongHui
08-14-2001, 04:20 PM
More of Benny Meng's self promotion I think. Why does he refuse to give us the sources for all this ground breaking information? Could it be that he needs to set HFY apart from ordinary or as he says "modified" Wing Chun.

Does anyone know if they Chi Sao in HFY? I've heard that Chi Sao is a more modern invention so my guess would be no if his origin story is correct.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the
hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open
palm. [/quote]

I had always heard that doing it this way was a sign of disrespect...?

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

maestro
08-14-2001, 06:02 PM
Yes, there is chi sau in Hung Fa Yi WC. We have several progressions of single and two hand chi sau, as well as free hand chi sau. I've only been studying HFY for a couple of months, and I've only learned the single hand chi sau so far. There seems to be much more emphasis on precise contact points than in the Yip Man chi sau I've played.

As far as the history goes, the references to Taan Sau Ng are from Master Garrett Gee, the inheritor of the HFY system. The Ving Tsun Museum has been researching this version of WC history for some time, and will be putting out a book soon.

Swimming is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from drowning.
Fighting is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from dying.

Tommy T.
08-14-2001, 06:51 PM
Maestro,

You stated, "There seems to be much more emphasis on precise contact points than in the Yip Man chi sau I've played."

Can you please describe this in greater detail. What exactly do you mean by "precise contact points"? Are you saying Yip Man WC does not emphasize "contact points"? And that we do not connect with our opponents during chi sao? If we break contact during chi sao, how do we have compression? I have yet to see HFY, so I am very interested in their methodology.

maestro
08-14-2001, 07:12 PM
Well, I'm pretty new to the whole HFY thing, so let me try to explain...

Our contact points are precise postions on the arm. We use the area between the wrist bone and the bottom of the palm (on the knife-edge of the hand) for contact. Let's use bong sau for example. In Yip Man daan chi sau progression, after we are jut-ed, we deflect the punch with a bong sau. For this bong sau, we keep contact pretty much anywhere on the arm, and use it as an off-center deflection. In HFY, we try to get the contact in the ridge I mentioned above, to allow us to not only deflect the punch off-center, but we can also pull with it if we need to. Obviously the structure of the HFY bong sau is different to facillitate the pulling. The bong is done as more of and elbow rising motion than the typical "flip" of the YM bong. This allows us to control the opponents lines a little better...

Sorry, I'm having a hard time explaining this by writing it. I could explain it to you in less than a minute if we were face to face :)

Let me know if you have any more questions. I may not be able to answer them, but I'll try

:D

Maestro :cool:

Swimming is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from drowning.
Fighting is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from dying.

BeiKongHui
08-14-2001, 07:45 PM
maestro-

Was the HFY history passed down orally or is it documented? So far the only written proof of Taan Sao Ng's existence seems to be in the early Red Boat opera records. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Tommy T.
08-14-2001, 07:55 PM
Maestro,

You stated, "For this bong sau, we keep contact pretty much anywhere on the arm, and use it as an off-center deflection. In HFY, we try to get the contact in the ridge I mentioned above, to allow us to not only deflect the punch off-center, but we can also pull with it if we need to. Obviously the structure of the HFY bong sau is different to facillitate the pulling. The bong is done as more of and elbow rising motion than the typical "flip" of the YM bong. This allows us to control the opponents lines a little better..."

I understand you are new to this, but we do this in Yip Man WC, you will see it at the advance level. Yes, dan chi sao, a beginner to intermediate level exercise, is performed with a very strict structure. Wrist to wrist, elbow moving up and down or "flipping" as you put it. Remember, it is only an exercise. When we do chi sao at the advance level, our bong sao often loses its strict form in order to maintain contact, compression, with our opponent. And it is often done with any part of our arm, which allows us to deflect or absorb our opponent's energy. This will allow an opening of a new line for us to take and control. It is hard to explain with words.

maestro
08-14-2001, 08:28 PM
BKH -
I'm not sure about what's been documented and what is oral history. While I enjoy hearing the stories/theories/legends of the origins of Wing Chun, I prefer to focus on the physical aspects and the mental stategies. I guess I'd rather spend a couple hours practicing instead of reading about it... Hopefully when the book is published the questions will be answered.

Tommy T. -
Isn't it amazing how the simplest concepts to explain in person are so hard to explain by writing? I guess that's why you can't learn martial arts from a book. That being said, let me try to expand on my bong sau explaination from before....

I think we're talking about the same things here. In Yip Man chi sau, we will contact anywhere on the arm with the bong sau to allow us to redirect and keep compression with our partner/opponent. The YM bong is more of a roll or a flip than the HFY bong sau. HFY bong rolls over on the bottom and lifts the attack, using the ridge on the bottom of the hand. This is only one type of bong in HFY. They also have a bong sau similar to YM, but the focus is to get the sticking point (the ridge at the bottom of the hand) to contact the opponent, to allow better control. Also, the bong sau in HFY is played at a little different range (a little closer to the body) than the YM bong sau.

Well, I don't know if that's a better explaination or not... Please keep asking the questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability...

Maestro :cool:

Swimming is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from drowning.
Fighting is not a sport, it's something you do to keep from dying.

EmptyCup
08-14-2001, 08:42 PM
I doubt the story of Wing Chun learning a martial art from a fighting nun to defeat a evil suitor to marry her prince charming is true :)

A fairy tale such as the one about a person spying through a peephole to learn a martial art...these are general myths that aren't restricted to our style.

And as somebody already mentioned, pick up Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie's book Complete Wing Chun to see the "creation stories" of other wing chun lineages...there are common elements but many of the other stories are much more plausible than the Yip Man one

Tommy T.
08-14-2001, 09:04 PM
I agree, very difficult to learn and even understand anything through words.
Thanks for the explanations, I have a better, yet limited, understanding of the HFY bong sau usage.
I guess, we all have different paths to the same destination.

Martial Joe
08-14-2001, 10:15 PM
ng mui rules :How does that story show the spirit of wing chun?

I dont really care about where this style came from...I only care about now,and what it will become,I have the real thing in me and I make wing chun what it is to me,and you do the same for yourself.The way you think of wing chun is the spirit of wing chun in your prespective...

If you cant understand that I am basicaly saying its what you make of it not some story...

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[This message was edited by Martial Joe on 08-15-01 at 01:34 PM.]

Martial Joe
08-14-2001, 10:17 PM
Did Benny Ming write this?

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anerlich
08-15-2001, 12:56 AM
No, but Benny MENG did, with Alfredo del Brocco. The article must be close to two years old by now.

Martial Joe
08-15-2001, 03:45 AM
Ahhhhh so Benny MENG did it,not Benny Ming...

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