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joedoe
10-06-2004, 07:38 PM
Hi, I am not trying to start any arguments about lineage or anything, but I was wondering about the history and roots of Wing Chun. The main reason I asked is that I was of the understanding that Wing Chun is mostly derived from the white crane and snake arts, and someone has postulated otherwise. Am I incorrect, or is this another can of worms?

yellowpikachu
10-06-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
Hi, I am not trying to start any arguments about lineage or anything,

but I was wondering about the history and roots of Wing Chun.


The main reason I asked is that I was of the understanding that Wing Chun is mostly derived from the white crane and snake arts, and someone has postulated otherwise.


Am I incorrect, or is this another can of worms?




Nope, not another can of worm.

This is a democratic world that people should be able to discuss with openess and present thier case with evidents.

If the world is not evolved to the democratic world yet. then, hopefully somedays the world will be like that.

planetwc
10-06-2004, 09:07 PM
worms, dude, nothing but worms.

joedoe
10-06-2004, 09:12 PM
So I should delete the thread before it causes more trouble? :D

Seriously though, am I wrong in my understanding of snake and crane being the base arts of WC?

sihing
10-06-2004, 10:30 PM
Well depending on who you ask....In my opinion Wing Chun was not based on the snake and crane arts. It was based on logic and the science of movement, pure and simple. The monks developed new theories and concepts for developing superior fighters in 1/3 of the time. Some of these theories include, theory of interruption, close range fighting, using two arms at once, contact reflexes, straight line movement instead of round on attacks, elbow/knee watching, independent movement of the arms, etc... Each monk/elder was an experienced master of their own respective systems, each was well versed in the physics of movement and vital areas of the body. They developed these concepts and principals so that average people would be able to handle skilled fighters in less training time and be able to maintain these skills with less physical effort.

James

joedoe
10-06-2004, 10:45 PM
Interesting thoughts. I guess you could look at it that way, but then again nothing happens in a vacuum. Surely there might have been other arts (not necessarily white crane or snake) that influenced the development of Wing Chun?

Toby
10-06-2004, 11:14 PM
What's your postulation joedoe? I've heard of distinct similarities between some WC and an internal style. At the end of the day, who really knows?

yellowpikachu
10-06-2004, 11:52 PM
Thus, I have heard.

There are two types of arts influencing Red boat in the 1850.

One is the White Crane of Fujian.
The other one is the Hakka martial art.



There was the
White Crane of Fujian / Emei's art combination which become Siu Lien Tau system; and Wing Chun was founded. Thus, Siu Lien Tau is the core art of Wing Chun. Crane and Snake combination description are based on the above art. White Crane of Fujian was created in 1650 era. While Emei's written record shown a 700 years history since creation in the Song Dynasty.



White Crane from fujian is the Crane component. Such as the center line principle, the Man sau, the five elements potential which are the tan, pak, fook...., and contribute potential (energy) components, the two hands neutral and attack in the same instant...

The emei 12 zhuang contribute the snake body which in todays term means Awareness and adaptive... chi sau .. using silence to subdue the action.. Come accept, goes let it be.. and the concept of shooting out force instead of streching out to punch.. adaptive momentum... and the YJKYM/ 8 legs methods.

Since the emei 12 zhuang directly related to the Buddhist cultivation. The concept of True emptiness wonderful existance which can be expressed in come accept, goes let it be, or in today's term --- living in Now; just do it, Dont think, think less, not going anywhere, not expect anything, not trying to be anybody....etc; or provide a training to get into alpha brainwave ..... were integrated into SLT via this path.
physically, Spine activation training also was from this path.


Thus, SLT's force issuing is different with White Crane and Wing Chun is not Totally White Crane because the enginee of power generation is different.



On the other hand, in the same period of time, The
Hakka art which was practicing Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing, a "harder "style or more Shao Lin "look", (but not practising Siu Lien Tau as the Core ) contribute to develop other martial arts in the Red Boat.





The Red boat opera such as the actor such as Lee Man Mau and playing ladies role was practicing Wing Chun which is Fujian White Crane Based.



Later,

Due to the co-exist of different arts on board of the Red Boat, thus, there was mutual influence .


In the pre/ at Leung Jan time, legend said it, there is only one long set of art in Wing Chun kuen namely The Siu Lien Tau. Then, later, this set was localized Evolved as usual as the art grow.

at the era of Lee Man Mau lead the red boad uprising which is first uprising of the Chinese Opera Actors in the chinese history, and later turn into the Red Bandana movements, Wing Chun Kuen is further Evolved.



In addition, the hakka art which practiced the Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing doesnt by defaut related to Zen of Shao Lin. As one will see today that the Hakka martial art school still practicing Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing but they might not be Buddhist or Zen practitioners.

joedoe
10-07-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Toby
What's your postulation joedoe? I've heard of distinct similarities between some WC and an internal style. At the end of the day, who really knows?

I don't actually have a theory myself. I was of the understanding that there was a white crane and snake influence on Wing Chun, but then I also know there is a lot of debate over the history of the art.

I am just trying to clarify my understanding, however if it degrades into a lineage war I will delete the thread. My intention is not to stir up trouble, but to try and clarify my knowledge.

YongChun
10-07-2004, 12:28 AM
Wang Kiu said that Wing Chun was just some good ideas from the Southern Chinese martial arts. He said Wing Chun was very similar to Preying Mantis in concept. His whole family trained in the Mantis arts but after seeing Wong Shun Leung's successes switched to Wing Chun and studied privately with Yip Man. It is Dr. Khoe's contention that Wing Chun is derived from the art of Hsing I. Those who train Hung style, Snake style and Crane style can see many elements of their styles within Wing Chun with also straight line attacks, attack and defense at the same time, sticking, upright stances, mobile footwork and all of the Wing Chun shapes but on top of that a lot more. Wing Chun wasn't thought up in a vacuum so it is very likely that ideas were borrowed from other arts and some of those arts were animal styles.

The story of Yim Wing Chun, Ng Mui, the snake and the crane were probably mostly marketing stories. Wang Kiu said that Lee Man and Yip Man made up those stories in the beginning to draw interest to the art. There is no solid evidence to back up any one version of anyone's story from what I have seen. Chinese history is full of made up stories.

Perhaps Wing Chun didn't originate from snake and crane fighting but there is still a lot of overlap between these systems depending on how you look at it. My Hung style teacher knew little of Wing Chun but when he first saw it, could relate to all of it right away as small circle Kung Fu which the upper levels of Hung style practitioners also knew.

I think Rene Ritchie , Robert Chu and Leung Ting have done some good research into all these matters. Animal fighting doesn't mean to mimc animals and to quack like a duck, the reason people look down on animal styles. Instead attributes of animals can be used for a source of ideas. For example to have your arms feel rubbery like snake like is a good quality. To have the ferocity of a Tiger is also a good quality. To have characteristics of water, of an Oak tree and of a Willow tree is also good. It doesn't mean we try to look like a tree. All these things just give ideas for fighting. Ideas can come from any kind of observation in nature. Then we just humanize these ideas to produce something practical.

KPM
10-07-2004, 02:53 AM
I once saw some video footage of a guy doing a form from fukien white crane... I think it may have been the old "eating crane" style. My first thought was..."that's some strange looking Wing Chun. What kind of Wing Chun is it?" It was similar enough that I assumed it was a family of WCK that I had never seen...maybe Yik Kam or something else. I was surprised when I was told it was white crane. I've never seen emei, but have been told it is the root art of styles like Hsing I. I have seen Hsing I, and it does seem to have many similarities to WCK. So Hendrik's version of Wing Chun history makes sense to me. Other's mileage may vary. :-)

Keith

Nick Forrer
10-07-2004, 02:55 AM
Hi Hendrick

Interesting stuff. This is the clearest articulation of your theory I have seen to date.

A couple of questions

1) Am I right in saying you came across emei 12 zhuang after learning Wing chun and found the Kuen Kuit in both arts to be almost Identical, and Emei being the older art you posited that Wing chun was derived from it?

2) Is the Hakka martial art 'Weng Chun'. If not how do you account for its origins?

Thanks

Nick

yellowpikachu
10-07-2004, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by Nick Forrer


A couple of questions

1) Am I right in saying you came across emei 12 zhuang after learning Wing chun and found the Kuen Kuit in both arts to be almost Identical, and Emei being the older art you posited that Wing chun was derived from it?

2) Is the Hakka martial art 'Weng Chun'. If not how do you account for its origins?




1, I found Emei 12 Zhuang by accident similar to how I found Shang Hai's connection. while I am studying different Chinese martial arts writting records.

True, Emei is much older even compare with White Crane of Fujian or the Ming Dynasty Chinese Martial art evolution/revolution. the emei 12 zhuang is from Song Dynasty.

Emei 12 Zhuang's writting record can provide lots of very specific insight about why SLT was designed the way it is including the meaning of YJKYM and how is its handling.


2, I wont comment on other art beside Wing Chun. however,
here is a clip of what the Hakka martial art is about by the Hakka. This clip is from Taiwan, this respected art had been trained and produced Champions both in Taiwan and Mainland China's tournament.

One can see the Localization Evolution of the art due to Taiwan has a good size of TKD and judo environment, and also the classical traditional sets (non weapon, weapon) here. and indeed within the clip it talkes openly about Localization Evolution.

Take a look at its classical traditional sets and see do you see Wing Chun here or other arts from the red boat?

you will see how a Hakka Based art are looks like based on the Hakka Grandmaster via the Taiwan TV. Taiwan has a good number of Hakka Population and the Hakka People are very respectable to protect, to keep , and grow thier trandition.


mms://web.hakka.gov.tw/goto-29.asf








On the other hand,

what I have observed are

The term "shao Lin" doesnt mean much when most of the southern CMA has a pre-fix of "shao Lin".

The existance of Tan Sau Ng does mean much because we know today there are fujian art, Hakka art, Emei art ... ect on board of the Red Boat and why the heck some of the wing chun Kuen Kuit is written in Fujianese dialect and White Crane of Fujian alike or emei terms?

The red bandana also doesnt tell alots because the written history of china record about Lee Man-Mau and the secrete code of 1850's uprising was still preserved and parallel to the one found in Shang Hai..

Similarly, the term Bai Fut or praying to the buddha also doesnt tell much about ZEN or Shao Lin because Bai Fut beside of means praying to buddha. it mean matching toward's Fatsan city in 1850's uprising.

So, one has to be really carefull here when drawing conclusion.


My take in what happen in Red Boat is art, Wing Chun or other arts, all are respectable and should be treat as equal. they are not the same, not from the same roots. one cannot claim one to be older then the others. One cannot just mix the two and blending.

For example, the Yee Jing Jing training is very different compare with the Emei 12 zhuang training. Thus, different type of training produced different type of power generation methods and the set will be perform differently.

another example, if one mix art without an insight of the different, then, there will be a feeling of "something" is unusual.

Such as if one trying to make the harder art more soft. that create problem because the core/enginee doesnt support the system. It just "feel" different. Thus, one cannot mix TaiJi or HSing I into Wing Chun, one the surface it looks ok when one is doing one or two moves.

but then when one is doing a series of move there one can see it doesnt integrate into one. There is where people with insight in CMA "see though" what is happening or copied. Even with the same shape. one can do one move, two move, and continous on will shown the secret of the mix. unless one knows and have very solid insight into advance level, otherwise the integration will be having flaw. even with deep insight into the art, one can check the source from different dimentions such as jing....
one lost the spontaneouslity with those 'just mix". when one check the art in "living in Now". one just sees... cant be hide.

to the worst, sometimes both art lost the advantage in the mix because while mixing, Shape is the one which one pay attention the most.

Check into the White CRane from FUjian and take a look and compare with Wing Chun. one can see the similarity plus "something" is there. and the tasks are then to find out what is that "something" and certainly to find out does it works well with this type of integration?


So with the information and data we collect today. we can very likely pin point what is going on with first order accuratecy. so, there is no need of any type of arguement when checking into the data.

but then again, I present what I found but others believe and theory are respected equally.

Vajramusti
10-07-2004, 07:43 AM
Two good fairly clear posts Hendrik- doesnt have to be a can of worms or involve personal attacks.... regarding those two posts in answering Joe Doe..

Ali Hamad Rahim
10-07-2004, 07:44 AM
The 5 Grandmasters; Ng Mui was a Buddhist nun of the Sil Lum temple of Mountain Shung of Honan. Style: Rat Step Ping Plum Flower Fists. Fung Do-Duck, a Taoist, and an expert of the internal systems. He was from Mo-Dong, of the northern area. Bak Mei, founder of the White Eyebrow system. He was originally from Mountain Aw-Mei-Sze Chuan. Miao Hin. Famous for his Buddhist lifestyle, he was originally from Mountain Bai-Pai of Kweog-Si. Jee Seen, the founder of the Hung style. Jee Seen was also the founder of the Evergreen style. In fact most of the southern styles of Kung Fu today especially those of the Fu-Kien were either related to or influenced by Jee Seen. And he was also responsible for the introduction of the famous Sil Lim long pole techniques into the Wing Chun repertoire. All of these masters were apart of Shaolin temple. When the Manchurians learned the fighting way of Shaolin. That’s when they (five grand masters) took all of their systems and put them all together, and since the Manchu’s learned the long fist of Shaolin, the five grandmasters only used the short range system of Shaolin.
And there it is Wing Chun the system.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Vajramusti
10-07-2004, 07:47 AM
My own theory is that Larry, Curly amd Moe
invented wing chun when they saw a fight between a rake and a train.

Ali Hamad Rahim
10-07-2004, 08:02 AM
You know Joy I think you are right. lol.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

yellowpikachu
10-07-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Vajramusti
Two good fairly clear posts Hendrik- doesnt have to be a can of worms or involve personal attacks.... regarding those two posts in answering Joe Doe..



Joy,


That can leads to my new Model and theory of SLT ---- MDX or Multi-Dimentional Execution Model.

This is a model I have been working at for a while and believe it can model and explain alots about SLT and its training. both big picture and specifics in the sametime.

With MDX one can see why Wing Chun Kuen is simple and effective to learn. also with MDX one can see Why in the old time people said SLT is easy to learn difficult to master.


It is a simple but usefull model or tools to open up one's "view or vision" once it was explain.

the concept is IE: similar to if one draw a ball in a one dimention it becomes a straight line, two dimentional it becomes a circle, three dimentional it be a ball, four dimentional it becomes a rotational ball. etc.

So, with MDX one "sees" the reality more closely then the usual one dimentional view.



This is an integrated model which synthesis lots of 'stuffs' into one simple view. So the shape, momentum, jing (power), intention, attention, Awareness of Living in Now all can come to one simple view to serve to be able to "know" about training/applications. in a simple, direct, and crystal clear manner.



this MDX model, some how turn out to be parallel with the view on integration that Ken Wilber present in someway. http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/interviews/Shambhala_interview.cfm/xid%2C7023423/yid%2C68220461
.

strange stuffs. it seems that those ancestors of Wing Chun Kuen from the past Red Boat area or whoever design the SLT has great insight.

seems that all the thinkers of the past and present, even Ken influence me on the way how i look at SLT. who knows?



The knowledge of the ancient ancestors which is a multi-dimentional can only be revealed with multi-dimentional. we might not have the platform or based to accept it and carry out its full potential. Not to mention, the reality is a co-existance of multi-mulit dimentional ---- the lotus of thousand pedal. See if we can transcent people there in our generation, next generation? who knows?

Then, at that time, the main question will very likely no longer XYZ style or ground, sky,.. fight...etc. But how many dimentions does one have master and full control? That is where the MDX attemp to transport the traveller or some one comes later to build a even better model then MDX to complete the mission of transportation.

let the sky opened up ,the mountains disappeared, the seas run dry, the sun refused to rise, the earth reclaims its due.... and one lives in the view of the lotus of thousand pedals. But then, how to generate to energy to get up there, pure conscious type of understanding dont have the capability for the transportation to do that.
The future is as important as the past or the root, but we can only live in now. that is where the energy of transportation come from and that called for Zen's satori.


So, we have Localization Evolution Theory or LET. Multi-Dimentional eXercution model or MDX as tools now.


It is my view that Wing Chun Kuen will enter the Multi-dimentional paradigm shift. So, there is not need for making his-story, claim originality/olderst, claim of pure blood line to be great. because those consciousness is scarcity consciousness which bring unhappiness and battle and war and very old tribal like, and eliminating others.

But, instead, WCners can putting real work into the Multi-dimentional paradigm where sky wide is the limit. Thus, everyone has a chance and can be a Wing Chun stars of the future based of the wide domain we are entering in. That is about prosperity and abudant conscious that everyone will benifit at the end since everyone can be inspired and product great work to benifit others.


So, what is/ does MDX got to do or where it is place with MMA? some might ask. MDX's domain include MMA. Because MDX's goal goes deeper or beyond labering , and probe directly into the most effective way of pure physical shape/structure, momentum, energy manuval without labeling. IMHO.





MDX in action :D
http://www.acura.com/models/model_index.asp?module=mdx&bhcp=1
imagine to have one of this electonics 4 wheel drives for the journey!
How relax and ease one will be travelling.

That is the idea of hendrik's MDX 2004. make the traveller stress and pressureless. :D

PaulH
10-07-2004, 03:09 PM
Hey Hendrik,

Sounds like Gibran! =)
---------------------------------------
And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge."

And he answered, saying:

Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.

You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.

The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;

And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.

But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.

For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."

Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."

For the soul walks upon all paths.

The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.

Vajramusti
10-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Paul H sez-

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals
---------------------------------------------------

Are you talking about me?
Joyotpaul= Conjugation in sanskrit of Joy+Utpal=
The victorious lotus- not the blooming lotus who has been banned from kfo.

The lotus blooms in the midst of muck and the plum flower blossoms in rough terrain and all seasons.

Wing chun is poetic enough for me even without Gibran or starry starry nights <g>

PaulH
10-07-2004, 05:25 PM
WC is poetry enough! One finds joy always in poetry! =D Gotta run!

anerlich
10-07-2004, 07:12 PM
With MDX one can see why Wing Chun Kuen is simple and effective to learn.

Not from that "explanation', one can't.

What the world needs, another TLA :rolleyes:

Vajramusti
10-07-2004, 09:44 PM
MDX. TLA---
I am lost!

anerlich
10-07-2004, 10:11 PM
TLA - three letter acronym

MDX - nonsense

anerlich
10-07-2004, 10:13 PM
"My own theory is that Larry, Curly amd Moe
invented wing chun when they saw a fight between a rake and a train."

Don't like the rake's chances ...

yellowpikachu
10-07-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by anerlich


MDX - nonsense






1, the Acura MDX is one of the best selling and best perform SUV.
it is a REAL "Sense"! :D

2, the Hendrik's MDX 2004 you have never even seen it yet.

so, why critic what you have never seen yet?

arent you the one checking to make sure every spellling/title qoute details of others and make sure if one's spelling is incorrect the whole context and everything is wrong?

or , Oh you dont take your own advise but expect others to be perfect! :D

oh, probably you are a profet (sp?) who can profesized (sp?) the future or read mind? similar to the false profet(sp?)

KPM
10-08-2004, 02:52 AM
Please realize that the legend of the 5 elders is just that......a legend. It is equivalent to the western legends of King Arthur and his Knights of the Roundtable or Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

Keith



Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
The 5 Grandmasters; Ng Mui was a Buddhist nun of the Sil Lum temple of Mountain Shung of Honan. Style: Rat Step Ping Plum Flower Fists. Fung Do-Duck, a Taoist, and an expert of the internal systems. He was from Mo-Dong, of the northern area. Bak Mei, founder of the White Eyebrow system. He was originally from Mountain Aw-Mei-Sze Chuan. Miao Hin. Famous for his Buddhist lifestyle, he was originally from Mountain Bai-Pai of Kweog-Si. Jee Seen, the founder of the Hung style. Jee Seen was also the founder of the Evergreen style. In fact most of the southern styles of Kung Fu today especially those of the Fu-Kien were either related to or influenced by Jee Seen. And he was also responsible for the introduction of the famous Sil Lim long pole techniques into the Wing Chun repertoire. All of these masters were apart of Shaolin temple. When the Manchurians learned the fighting way of Shaolin. That’s when they (five grand masters) took all of their systems and put them all together, and since the Manchu’s learned the long fist of Shaolin, the five grandmasters only used the short range system of Shaolin.
And there it is Wing Chun the system.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Ali Hamad Rahim
10-08-2004, 07:57 AM
Wow I had no ideal that the history of the red boat was not true. See there, you learn stuff everyday. Could you help me out with the truth? I’ll like that a lot. Thank you.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

sihing
10-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Once again, we can trace part of the cause of this problem back to Yip Man. I've heard two different stories about Yip Man and his recollections of WC's lineage and history. The first one has Yip being approached by a reporter in Hong Kong writing a article about Martial Arts and he wanted a history of WC from Yip. Yip told him to make it up and let him see it before it is published. The second story involves Yip and maybe Wang Kui(Ray will know) making up the history so people would know. Is this another example of a great teacher? The more I think about it the more it seems that Yip at times didn't really care about what was said about Wing Chun or they way it was represented to the public.

Personally I believe that WC was created by more than one person. Its too sophisticated to have been created by one person, and also someone else alone seperate from the WC clans would have duplicated that by now. I also believe that each Grandmaster of each era made that art better and improved it along the way. Yip Man changed it, and so has my Sifu as compared to the way he was taught it, and others on this forum mention the same about their own teachers too. So I think it is a natural progression with anything that has been passed down through time.

James

Vajramusti
10-08-2004, 08:53 AM
Give up on wing chun folks.

Its broke beyond repair!!!

Red Rain
10-08-2004, 09:40 AM
Thus, I have heard.

There was the
White Crane of Fujian / Emei's art combination which become Siu Lien Tau system; and Wing Chun was founded. Thus you have heard does not equal proof. Could you provide something more concrete.

That can leads to my new Model and theory of SLT ---- MDX or Multi-Dimentional Execution Model. yellowikachu, there are theories and more theories this thread could benefit more from proof that support your theories and not just hearsay.
Give up on wing chun folks Wing chun and Wing chun folks are not for everyone.

yellowpikachu
10-08-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Red Rain

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thus, I have heard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was the
White Crane of Fujian / Emei's art combination which become Siu Lien Tau system; and Wing Chun was founded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1, Thus you have heard does not equal proof. Could you provide something more concrete.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That can leads to my new Model and theory of SLT ---- MDX or Multi-Dimentional Execution Model.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2, yellowikachu, there are theories and more theories this thread could benefit more from proof that support your theories and not just hearsay.



.


1, Thus, i have heard, is Thus I have heard. No prove is needed.
Some believe and will search for it.
Some dont believe and dump it in the garbage..
it is a freeword. everything is ok.
If it is a fact, everything is a proof. If it is not a fact, every proof is a waste.


2, there are theories, there are observation, and there are a presentation of what the past ancestors had attained.

those who believe will believe. those who dont believe will never believe. thus, proving is just a waste of time. freeword, free will.

reneritchie
10-08-2004, 10:21 AM
Wing Chun was created by them slimy, glass helmeted, green aliens from the Simpsons in an effort to divide and fragment society so we would never come up with the idea of making the 'bigger board with the bigger nail'.

Same roots as tetris, basically.

Vajramusti
10-08-2004, 11:07 AM
As a red blooded resident of Cafe Americain-
I dont like aliens- specially dem green ones-they all make green giant peas- goodbye wing chun.

Vajramusti
10-08-2004, 11:08 AM
As a red blooded resident of Cafe Americain-
I dont like aliens- specially dem green ones-they all make green giant peas- goodbye wing chun.

Play it Sam.

As time goes by.

Savi
10-08-2004, 02:48 PM
Wing Chun is not strictly a Short Range Art.

All Wing Chun shares the centerline concept. I understand that the Centerline concept (in math terms, the "axis of symmetry") is rooted in the concept of Tin Yan Dei which has existed long before the 1850's.

Whether or not Ng Mui existed is irrelevant, there is an implication of a Shaolin Connection, predating the 1850's.

Weng Chun which has the Tin Yan Dei Concept and is a Shaolin originated system, predates the Red Boats.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, a name only known to secret societies (the private sector) at the time, has Tin Yan Dei Concept and predates the Red Boats.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Kiu Sau methods.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Chan methods and teachings and traditions.

HFYWC and CSWC share the Tin Yan Dei concept which expands beyond the centerline concept.

HFYWC and CSWC share the 1/2 Point Concept.

The Red Boats stems from the Red Opera Company of 140-150 years prior to the 1850's, founded by a person by the name of Cheung Ng; a person who is in the Hung Fa Yi geneology.

Cheung Ng is recognized as the creator of the 18 plays of Cantonese Opera, made famous by the Red Opera.

Cheung Ng was a disciple of Yat Chan Daai Si, a high level monk of the northern Shaolin Temple who emmigrated to the southern Shaolin Temple.

The Fatsan Museum in China has historical evidence that Cheung Ng did exist approx 150 years before the formation of the Red Boats. The evidence points to his martial (military) and operatic involvements. This information was ferreted out by GM Ip Chun (Ip Man's eldest son) who pointed this out to the Ving Tsun Museum.

In HFY lore, Hung Gun Biu (1800's) is credited for introducing WC to the Red Boats, and the development of SNT, CK, BJ segmentation.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Tan Bong Fuk and SNT, CK, BJ.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Chi Sau methods.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share centerline theory, though c/l application/usage may differ.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the nature of Fuk, which is to subdue/cover... a trait of Shaolin.

CSWC, HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Fuk, the c/l concept, the 1/2 Point Concept, similar gate theories, the weapons and the Wooden Dummy.

Vajramusti
10-08-2004, 03:22 PM
Rene sez-

Wing Chun was created by them slimy, glass helmeted, green aliens from the Simpsons
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does Apu in the Simpsons know about this?

KPM
10-09-2004, 04:19 AM
Savi:

What is your reference for "Red Boat Era Wing Chun"?


Keith

KPM
10-09-2004, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Wow I had no ideal that the history of the red boat was not true. See there, you learn stuff everyday. Could you help me out with the truth? I’ll like that a lot. Thank you.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


OK, OK! Tongue in cheek. :-) But a lot of people here will read what you wrote and think "yea, that 's the history!...why is anyone questioning it?" Its kind of funny that westerners will freely recognize their culture's own legends (King Arthur, Robin Hood, Lone Ranger, etc) as just that, and then freely accept another culture's legends as fact/history. So while you and I may repeat these legends and accept them as such, in a public forum with wide readership, they should be qualified on a thread talking about history. That's all I meant to convey.

Keith

Ng Mui
10-09-2004, 05:55 AM
Big Bang, Monkey evolving, transplanted from aliens or created from God.

Everyone agrees on nothing, not even our origins.

Wing Chun is no exception. So without solid proof, What?

Faith.

Created for a woman, from a woman. Like it or not guys.

Ego_Extrodinaire
10-09-2004, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Vajramusti
Paul H sez-

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals
---------------------------------------------------

Are you talking about me?
Joyotpaul= Conjugation in sanskrit of Joy+Utpal=
The victorious lotus- not the blooming lotus who has been banned from kfo.

The lotus blooms in the midst of muck and the plum flower blossoms in rough terrain and all seasons.

Wing chun is poetic enough for me even without Gibran or starry starry nights <g>

and you wonder why she calls herself that??

On WC history though, there is conflicting information on everything from names of the elders to their arts, what took place and how it progressed. I guess no-one will know for sure but if you can gather enough pieces and fit them together to make a logical sequence, it's going to be as a theory as any.

EE

Vajramusti
10-09-2004, 07:44 AM
Conflicting information is par for the course in most diccussions.

Non conflicting info is often prosaic- what is the date today in a coomon calendar- variety.

Opinions? Lots of folks have one-if opinions were truths- the world would be crazier than it already is.

sihing
10-09-2004, 08:29 AM
KPM, Ng Mui, Ego_Extrodinaire,

All of you have good points. It's hard to really know what the heck happened back then during the creation point of WC. The reason I believe the "Five Elders" theory is the structure of WC, its movements, concepts and principals are some much different than the rest of the Shaolin styles. The ones that are similar, Southern Mantis, BAk Mei, Hsing I, etc..may or may not have been developed after WC creation and could be a expression of the WC concepts from that particular creator. I also believe in the participation of a woman somewhere in the lineage. It makes perfect sense to me that a woman played some sort of role in the creation of the system, women pick it up so much faster than men(generally) IME, and the structure of WC allows for optimum use of natural weapons and power, etc, perfect for smaller people. Again, WC was supposed to be something of a secret so I can understand the stories of how at a certain time in WC history someone(before Yip Man) made up the legend because WC was now going to start being exposed to the public more, and the practicioners of the era had to still protect their identities. This isn't good for us in the future but it must have been needed in that era.

James

Ego_Extrodinaire
10-09-2004, 08:49 AM
coincidentally, I believe in the elder theory myself. and you bring up a good point that it was throughout its conception and sometime later somewhat a secret. They were supposedly defending the secret with their lives and life objectives. It stands to reason the puzzle should be hard to put back together.

Savi
10-09-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by KPM
Savi:

What is your reference for "Red Boat Era Wing Chun"?


Keith Time period. The Red Boats came about around the 1850's. Many WC lineages trace their family roots and/or oral legends to this time period.

yellowpikachu
10-09-2004, 10:19 AM
If the 5 elderly story of Shao Lin is taken as real. if Chisim is real then Ng Mui has to be real. Otherwise, we are being "filtering" information selectively.

Then, as in the story,
It doesnt make sense that ChiSim created Wing Chun kuen which was created by his School Sister Ng Mui. They have different type of arts as the story of shao Lin describe.







In the history of Wing Chun kuen from various lineages, Ng Mui is either direct or indirectly related to Yim Wing Chun. and always connected with CRANE style.


Out side the Wing Chun history, across the southern Chinese Martial art styles,

Ng Mui was present as the 3rd or 4th generation student of Fujian White Crane art according to the Worldwide Fujian white crane big meeting years ago. and acknowlege that Wing Chun Kuen is an offspring of Fujian White CRane. This acknowlegement is rare that it endose the root of wing Chun with its 350 years old solid writing record history.


A good question is, will any Shao Lin temple in China, be it from North or Southen willing to endose the Monk such and such which mention in some lineage's history to be thier Track-able student of the temple; where the type of Kung fu, and Zen's attainment recorded (such as attainment of Satori or mind seal...). And endose that Wing Chun Kuen is an art from that temple and very specifically show the martial art DNA on who, why where, when, what.... from that temple?





(Note:

Fujian White Crane is a true 350years art with both Qing gorvenment writing record and well documented interfamily record. it is strong art that in every generation of White Crane they produce great fighter. in the never passed White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.

Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )




BTW, Fujian White Crane has term that echo the Ng Mui's identity to relate to Fujian White Crane.

The term said
Sam (three) Dim (points) Ng (five) Miu (plum) Fa (flower)

or Three points five plum flower.







In summary,
the term "Ng Mui' does point to the Fujian white Crane.

as,
1, the three points five plum flower term
2, The Fujian White Crane's family endose the existance of somebody name "Ng Mui"
3, some Wing Chun Kuen kuit found in the Red boat era record clearly the classical term of Fujian White Crane.
4, Some Wing Chun Kuen kuit found in the red boat era was written in Fujianese.

3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage. we can also compare the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.






Thus, the connection of Fujian White Crane with Wing Chun Kuen, be it from the view angle of 1, story of five elderly, 2, from technical DNA , or 3 from Lee Man Mau who was the leader of the Opera Uprising and the leader of the Red Bandana movement.

Wing Chun kuen and Fujian White Crane's is very solid that cannot be denied.


one of the mother components of Wing Chun Kuen is Fujian White Crane or Fu Jian Weng Chun White Crane kuen . WEng Chun is a place in Fujian not a Temple in this case.


Thus, the story WCK related with "NG Mui " (whatever is her/his real name) from the red boat is very solidly point to the direction of Fujian White Crane. be it the story from YKS, Yip Man, Cho On, or Koo Loo lineage, they are telling the truth about the mother component.

There is no reason for WCners to have doubt about the teaching of these ancestors above.

yellowpikachu
10-09-2004, 11:15 AM
The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau. This system later passed to Yim Yee who was Wing Chun's father. Then passed on to Wing Chun ..... until the system further Localization Evolved grow into the Wing Chun Kuen in the Red Boat era.

Conincidently, the YKS lineage also share the story of Miu Hin. and the Koo Loo lineage adress that their art consist of emei's weapon's kuet.



From the above, there are two issues has to be look at.


1, why is it SLT doesnt use the classical Fujian White Crane's Sanchin stance as the based? eventhought, today if one uses the sanchin stance platform to practice SLT, one will feel comfortable and powerfull. Try it and see for yourself. instead of standing in YJKYM, stand in the sanchin stance.

2, what is the art of Miu shun?




These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.


it then also lead the understanding of SLT/SNT using the YJKYM instead of San Chin stance to develop a "softer" flow of Jing (power)


one of the name of game with the close body art is that what if one missed the first execution or the first short, it cant be a one short art isnt it? will it becomes a point of no return? That lead to the requirement of Full Arrow or Multi-dimentional resultant force structure. And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow. Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power. the core of the art has to be well settle in the full arrow platform. that is the core teaching of SLT/SNT --familiar with your own spide web and what it is the potential.

That then also lead to why classical WingChun doesnt use high kicks --- because 1, always it has to keep in Full Allow, and 2, raising kick in broken arrow is subjected to take down which is a point of no return if somethings goes wrong in the first execution. That then lead to the sickle .... not a straight sword extended shao Lin alike of tan sau......


Then, on this path of searching traveling west, we got lucky. that is the reveal of the emei 12 zhuang Kuen kuit. which explain the reason of why things are the way they are.

BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....



on the searching of the Red Boat Uprising and why it is called Wing Chun kuen we also get lucking which lead us to Shang Hai where across the filed we can see the big picture and the reason why it is named Wing Chun Kuen --- the martial art of the opera singer, in the process of evolution. we also knows who lead the red banana...... and compare note among different uprising qoute preserve in some wing chun lineages.



above is just a thesis. again, it needs to be taken as Thus, I have heard. and always respect other theoris exist on Wing Chun Kuen.

BTW.
IMHO, we need to look through and beyond the limb technics... and get into the momentum level, then later into the energy level.
and all of the things develop in the limb level will then extend into the momentum level, and then energy level.

it cant be that at limb level, momenum level, and energy level are three different kinds of art and train differently.

it has to be simple single art which can develop beyond a level and continous on the unlimited journey.

yellowpikachu
10-09-2004, 11:43 AM
Aways a great song to listen to at mid night while further the searching into the root of Wing Chun Kuen.


yup,

The world we know fades away
But the truth of the root will stay.
that is the mission set before time.

we are going to find it in our generation.


----------------------



Theme of Crouching tiger hidden dragon



If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas run dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you stay.

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side.
The North star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always


When the forest turns to jade,
And the stories that we've made
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain.

When we shed our earthly skin,
When our real life begins,

Rhat
10-09-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Savi
Wing Chun is not strictly a Short Range Art.

All Wing Chun shares the centerline concept. I understand that the Centerline concept (in math terms, the "axis of symmetry") is rooted in the concept of Tin Yan Dei which has existed long before the 1850's.

Whether or not Ng Mui existed is irrelevant, there is an implication of a Shaolin Connection, predating the 1850's.

Weng Chun which has the Tin Yan Dei Concept and is a Shaolin originated system, predates the Red Boats.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, a name only known to secret societies (the private sector) at the time, has Tin Yan Dei Concept and predates the Red Boats.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Kiu Sau methods.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Chan methods and teachings and traditions.

HFYWC and CSWC share the Tin Yan Dei concept which expands beyond the centerline concept.

HFYWC and CSWC share the 1/2 Point Concept.

The Red Boats stems from the Red Opera Company of 140-150 years prior to the 1850's, founded by a person by the name of Cheung Ng; a person who is in the Hung Fa Yi geneology.

Cheung Ng is recognized as the creator of the 18 plays of Cantonese Opera, made famous by the Red Opera.

Cheung Ng was a disciple of Yat Chan Daai Si, a high level monk of the northern Shaolin Temple who emmigrated to the southern Shaolin Temple.

The Fatsan Museum in China has historical evidence that Cheung Ng did exist approx 150 years before the formation of the Red Boats. The evidence points to his martial (military) and operatic involvements. This information was ferreted out by GM Ip Chun (Ip Man's eldest son) who pointed this out to the Ving Tsun Museum.

In HFY lore, Hung Gun Biu (1800's) is credited for introducing WC to the Red Boats, and the development of SNT, CK, BJ segmentation.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Tan Bong Fuk and SNT, CK, BJ.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Chi Sau methods.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share centerline theory, though c/l application/usage may differ.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the nature of Fuk, which is to subdue/cover... a trait of Shaolin.

CSWC, HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Fuk, the c/l concept, the 1/2 Point Concept, similar gate theories, the weapons and the Wooden Dummy.

Savi,

Thanks for the posts, very good stuffs! Within each of us is a center of wisdom far deeper and greater than we are aware of.

Gangsterfist
10-09-2004, 04:55 PM
with out getting politics involved or making claims to history with no back up, I can see it like this.

The biu sao, was sometimes called the snake hand of wing chun, because of its similarity of how a snake boxer would strike. It is infact very similiar.

The huen sao, is a more compacted version of a white crane tech, which I only know has the white crane cools his wings (also heard it called the white crane spreads its wings), which is also found in the taiji I study, thats how I am aware of it.

So, the motions of the techniques are almost identical, it can be assumed that it was borrowed from those systems. However, a lot of southern systems share many similar aspects. I also know a southern dragon form my sifu taught us because of its similiar execution of techniques using the human body compared to wing chun. Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun but the techniques drawn from the dragon form, and from the wing chun form are executed slightly different. Plus the footwork is almost identical to triangle footwork (in the dragon form) found in a lot of wing chun systems.

So, my logical conclusion with out any politics involed, based on all my knowledge from all the martial arts I have trained, and sparred against, Wing Chun holds many similar, and almost identical aspect to tons of southern arts. So, it can be logically assumed that they were borrowed, or coincedently similiar. Since most of these arts have been around longer than wing chun its more logical to assume that it was borrowed.

yellowpikachu
10-09-2004, 05:46 PM
Why wing chun kuen the way wing Chun is?

This question has to be answer from different dimentions.
Such as the shape, momentum, and energy level.

The same external shape can be misleading if not probe into the way how the momentum/power was generated and how the energy flow source and occur.



For example, why is a White Crane Fujian's water shape hand is not a Wing Chun Tan Sau? judging from shape, they take the same palm up shape. Why is a Hung Gar Beauty look at the Mirror is not the White Crane Fujian's water shape hand?




In addition,

Reality can be roughly devided in to two realm, in very general.

The metalphysical/idea/vision/imagination... realm.
The physical realm
and
the transformation/creation Zone which is a barrier/overlap between the metalphysical and physical.


Thus, There are wishfull idea such as Chan or Dao which was created by the imagination thoughts of some onewhich can never become reality. Because these ideas doesnt have the potential or energy or path to cross the creation Zone to bring it to the reality in the physical world. These ideas might sound great but they are wishfull, illusive, or often misleading idea.


IE: Whatever Zen talk which is not able to " LIVING IN NOW " based but wishfull thought based is just thoughts. IT cant be realized into the physical world.
Thus, this type of zen talk or Dao talk were called TALKING ZEN /Dao or in the Chinese history, it was refer as Clear chat.
There is a saying of "Clear Chat lead a country to ashtray." This type of epidemic happen in various dyansty such as song or Ming Dynasty..etc.

This type of talk has a characteristics of "all words no Process". In daoism or buddhism, there are specific training process to attain the reality of the mentalphysical realm within the physical realm, thus, there are lots of so called - Dharma Door or gate way to a attain a certain phenomenon for the Buddhist and Daoist.

Take for example, There are different type of Samadhi or proper stillness which one can realized with one's physical meditatin state to attain the reality in the mentalphysical state. The Zen lineages has its own "process" to attain enlightment which was provent by generations and generations of the patriach of the particular lineage. and this, Dharma Door only available from the particular lineage. It is not general at all. The Soto Zen lineage has the soto lineage way. The LinZai lineage has the linzai way. The Kwi Yang has the Kwi Yang way. The tibetian Buddhism has its Mahamudra....etc. The Daoist different lineages has different ways or process to attain the goals it set to be. It is all very technical down to earth non-wishfull thought practices.

a good example, is people in martial art talks about fear, pressure, stress.... etc. and guess what? what happen is these fear or horrow shows up while one in deep meditation? how to deal with it? since our mind cannot differentiate between awake or sleep when we get into those states. and our thought/logic doesnt works there. So, there is methods, methodology, process of exercution exist to deal with those stuffs. in the same token, desire, sex,,,,, also show up. Such as in the story of before the Buddha get enlightement, the Mara show up with his sexy daughters, or the Daoist sage Lu Dong-Bin has to face....
be it in the east or west, those "test" state will appear.

Thus,
Talk without a solid Dharma Door transmission from a lineage is not going to get anyway from the metalphysical realm to the physical realm or vice versal.



While searching into Chinese MArtial arts, this type of Talking Zen/Dao needs to be filter out. otherwise one will searching into unended wishfull thinking or ideas of others.

Vajramusti
10-09-2004, 06:01 PM
Yellowpikachu- some queries here and there on your two interesting posts- for my own information and clarity regarding
aspects of your thesis. (a note though- as discussed before some versions of Cho family- including wang kew kit(sp?) seem to have
mixed clf and other things in their art and the details of that transmission are somewhat fuzzy to me. Further- history can be a mixed bag- perhaps pointing out missed eelements but also glossing over important later evolutions).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snipped with bracketed comments.

If the 5 elderly story of Shao Lin is taken as real.
(There are some big time gaps in some Ji Shim stories between the supposed burning of "the-a" temple and Ji Shim's appearance ona red boat- from what I recall. Does your thesis involve the 5 elders)?

In the history of Wing Chun kuen from various lineages, Ng Mui is either direct or indirectly related to Yim Wing Chun. and always connected with CRANE style.
((Ok-in part..I am confused in part. The hung gar reference to wing chun is someone else..right?))


Out side the Wing Chun history, across the southern Chinese Martial art styles,

Ng Mui was present as the 3rd or 4th generation student of Fujian White Crane art according to the Worldwide Fujian white crane big meeting years ago.
(((Makes intuitive sense-does the white crane arts have ygkym anywhere? Hung Gar apparently uses that somewhere))


A good question is, will any Shao Lin temple in China, be it from North or Southen willing to endose ......And endose that Wing Chun Kuen is an art from that temple and very specifically show the martial art DNA on who, why where, when, what.... from that temple?

((A lot of lineage history is likely to be promotional- but nothing wrong in ateempting to splve puzzles analytically))


White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.
((Was Wang Xiang Zhai from the south- or north? The so called 3 nejia styles were from the north-right?))

Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )

((I dont follow- unclear))


BTW, Fujian White Crane has term that echo the Ng Mui's identity to relate to Fujian White Crane.

The term said
Sam (three) Dim (points) Ng (five) Miu (plum) Fa (flower)

or Three points five plum flower.
((Why the 3 points and why a 5 petaled flower? The 3 points related to the three battles? to sanchin? Sanchin breathing still at this stage?))


In summary,
the term "Ng Mui' does point to the Fujian white Crane.

((Understandable- to me. Did original white crane split into the various cranes?))))



3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage.
((All from the same mother?))

we can also compare

((How? examples?))

the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.
((How so? see my previous question on the ygkym ma))







one of the mother components of Wing Chun Kuen is Fujian White Crane or Fu Jian Weng Chun White Crane kuen . WEng Chun is a place in Fujian not a Temple in this case.


There is no reason for WCners to have doubt about the teaching of these ancestors above.



The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau.
(I know zilch about Miu Shan-this is still before the emei connection. I am fuzzy on the time line here))


Conincidently, the YKS lineage also share the story of Miu Hin. and the Koo Loo lineage adress that their art consist of emei's weapon's kuet.

((Could be stories depending on time lines in the appearnce of the connection? I am fuzzy here..))



From the above, there are two issues has to be look at.


1, why is it SLT doesnt use the classical Fujian White Crane's Sanchin stance as the based? eventhought, today if one uses the sanchin stance platform to practice SLT, one will feel comfortable and powerfull. Try it and see for yourself. instead of standing in YJKYM, stand in the sanchin stance.
((Yes- why in your thesis? The sanchin stance (goju has it also)
is powerful but the breayh does not flow smoothly. A friend gave me some pictures and sequences of a crane chi gung form from fujian- seems "labored" and isometric))

2, what is the art of Miu shun?

(Dont have the foggiest idea))




These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.

((Miu shun has already appeared in your thesis?))


it then also lead the understanding of SLT/SNT using the YJKYM instead of San Chin stance to develop a "softer" flow of Jing (power)


one of the name of game with the close body art is that what if one missed the first execution or the first short, it cant be a one short art isnt it? will it becomes a point of no return? That lead to the requirement of Full Arrow or Multi-dimentional resultant force structure.
((Characteristic of convertability and flow?))

And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow.

((Prallel to tree hugging standing in Chen..?))

Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power.

((Rechambering issue?))




Then, on this path of searching traveling west, we got lucky. that is the reveal of the emei 12 zhuang Kuen kuit. which explain the reason of why things are the way they are.

((Is Mui shan now in the past-in th emei phase?))

BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....

((So the emei phase gets rid of sanchin breathing?))



on the searching of the Red Boat Uprising and why it is called Wing Chun kuen we also get lucking which lead us to Shang Hai where across the filed we can see the big picture and the reason why it is named Wing Chun Kuen --- the martial art of the opera singer, in the process of evolution. we also knows who lead the red banana...... and compare note among different uprising qoute preserve in some wing chun lineages.

((much detail- and I am foggy on the red ban(d)ana connection- I may have slipped on a peel))



above is just a thesis. again, it needs to be taken as Thus, I have heard. and always respect other theoris exist on Wing Chun Kuen.

((Interesting thesis- I am clear in parts- fuzzy in others.. could be writing could be my problem also in understanding))

BTW.
IMHO, we need to look through and beyond the limb technics... and get into the momentum level, then later into the energy level.
and all of the things develop in the limb level will then extend into the momentum level, and then energy level.

it cant be that at limb level, momenum level, and energy level are three different kinds of art and train differently.
((I actually understand that))

it has to be simple single art which can develop beyond a level and continous on the unlimited journey.


((Evolution- good or bad continues...
You have put in a lot of work in building your thesis piece by piece.
I am fuzzy on some of the chronology and some of the details( Mui shun for example... but I enjoyed reading the thesis.

I will by pass singing Norah Jones songs- I am going to her concert- she is the daughter of the great sitarist-Ravi Shanker-
no wonder she is so precise evn in jazz))

Rather than poetry- today-
Oklahoma 12 Texas 0 !! (American football-I gew up around Oklahoma football and wrestling- as avery interested spectator)

reneritchie
10-09-2004, 08:51 PM
Ali G - So, me says, this Wang Chung stuff, where's it come from?

Guy 1 - A Buddhist nun taught a young girl so she could fight off a gangter who wanted to marry her.

Ali G - So this nun didn't want this girl getting none either? I mean, with respects, maybe she wouldn't have stood so funny like if, you know, she'd let the gangster--

Guy 2 - Wait, wait, the Buddhist nun story is just a cover. It really comes from Shaolin monks and Ming Generals...

Ali G - Ming Genitals? You mean the guy from Flash Gordon with his privates and all (snaps fingers)?

Guy 2 - Generals!

Guy 3 - Wing Chun comes from Western Boxing

Ali G - With respect, is that really polite to talk about on telly and--?

Guy 3 - Boxing, you idiot, like Mike Tyson...

Ali G - Well that don't make no sense, don't it? (Makes finger in to gun), you know. Pop! Pop! Burrrrapa! With respect, how you going to box that?

Guy 1 - What about Bruce Lee? I mean, he's why everyone wants to learn Wing Chun....

Ali G - (Hand still like gun) Could he block a bullet? Burrrapa!

Guy 1 - Stop that.

Ali G - (Frowns and turns back to Guy 2) So, let me ask yous this. Me hears about all this Shaolin stuff, but what about the Wutan?

Guy 2 - Wutan?

Ali G - Cause, with respect, Wutan Clan ain't nuthin to **** with...

Guy 1 - This man is a moron...

Savi
10-10-2004, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
with out getting politics involved or making claims to history with no back up, I can see it like this.

The biu sao, was sometimes called the snake hand of wing chun, because of its similarity of how a snake boxer would strike. It is infact very similiar.

The huen sao, is a more compacted version of a white crane tech, which I only know has the white crane cools his wings (also heard it called the white crane spreads its wings), which is also found in the taiji I study, thats how I am aware of it.

So, the motions of the techniques are almost identical, it can be assumed that it was borrowed from those systems. However, a lot of southern systems share many similar aspects. I also know a southern dragon form my sifu taught us because of its similiar execution of techniques using the human body compared to wing chun. Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun but the techniques drawn from the dragon form, and from the wing chun form are executed slightly different. Plus the footwork is almost identical to triangle footwork (in the dragon form) found in a lot of wing chun systems. Gangsterfist, here you stumble onto some good observations, and what I think are some tangents as well. For an accomplished designer (or multiple designers) to design something "new", he/she/they do not necessarily look at the parts of other designs and mold it into the current work in progress. The "mix and match" approach is an illogical one at that because designers strive for functionality rather than some artistic appeal. The "mix and match" approach (which would be fairly inefficient) is also in contradiction with the purpose of Wing Chun; to do that which is most efficient, and that includes the design stage.

This being the case, the design of WC is focused around principle, concept and theory intent on expressing an overriding philosophy/purpose; rather than designing a system by borrowing techniques from other designs. You touched on this focus with this:

Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun whereas drawing observations or even conclusions based on appearance may cut short the truth one may seek.

If you recognize that the higher level knowledge of Wing Chun exists within its science (principles, concepts, theories, etc...), then why would you look for an answer in techniques, which is NOT what WC is based on?

The Huen Sau and the Biu Sau in WC are governed by concepts and principles, employed by strategy and tactic. The shared usage and/or appearance of it in other southern systems only tells you that WC is also a southern system. That's about it.

Then again, where do the majority of southern systems stem from? That region of information should also be researched as it holds great potential for new discoveries for everyone.

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
So, my logical conclusion with out any politics involed, based on all my knowledge from all the martial arts I have trained, and sparred against, Wing Chun holds many similar, and almost identical aspect to tons of southern arts. So, it can be logically assumed that they were borrowed, or coincedently similiar. Since most of these arts have been around longer than wing chun its more logical to assume that it was borrowed. This may stand to be logical, presuming one has concluded that Wing Chun is only about 150 years old; give or take a few years and that the answers are within the appearance of performance.

1. I think looking at common shapes is a good first step, but that does not guarantee anything more than a satisfaction in personal observation. This may be seen as chasing techniques.

2. The second step would be to study what is being done behind the techniques you are analyzing. This will take you even deeper into finding out where to step next. This could be viewed as chasing center.

KPM
10-10-2004, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by Savi
Time period. The Red Boats came about around the 1850's. Many WC lineages trace their family roots and/or oral legends to this time period.


No. You misunderstood my question. What lineage or style of WCK are you using to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as a reference point when you are making all of these comparisons concerning theories and content?

Keith

sihing
10-10-2004, 07:14 AM
Savi,
Very good points and arguement. It reminds me of my younger years in training in WC, and watching old kung-fu movies. I used to see "techniques" that looked similar to Wing Chun in those movies all the time. There were tan sao's, bong sao's, kan-sao, etc..flying all over the place in those movies, but it was the concepts behind the techniques that made the Wing Chun I practice different than what I saw in the movies. WC is a concept & principal based MA system, not a technique based, and although the 5 Elders were masters of animals systems for the most part, they developed "New" theories of fighting and combat, to which would eventually become the core of the WC system.

James

**Note: the movies I watched were shaw brothers movies and usually directed by Lau Kar Leung(Liu Chia-lian) who was a Hung-Gar master and into showing more realistic kung-fu in the Hong Kong movies. Basically his fight scenes were set up to show what real kung-fu looked like, but in a choreographed form, like 2 man forms.****

Savi
10-10-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by KPM
No. You misunderstood my question. What lineage or style of WCK are you using to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as a reference point when you are making all of these comparisons concerning theories and content?

Keith If I misunderstood your question, I apologize. But, in truth I am not isolating any singular lineage to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as I am generalizing a section of time in history; hence the use of the word, ERA.

There are about 14 different lineages of Wing Chun that stem from the Red Boat timeframe (1850's), and maybe a few that are researching their historical roots beyond the Red Boats.

It is important to note that the Red Boat was a chapter of the Red Opera Company (of the 1700's) which was also a chapter of another organization. So there is a huge implication of martial and operatic involvement prior to the formation of the Red Boats of the 1850's. How did all these martial systems get on the Red Boats in the first place? And why did they end up there?

Savi
10-10-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by sihing
WC is a concept & principal based MA system, not a technique based, and although the 5 Elders were masters of animals systems for the most part, they developed "New" theories of fighting and combat, to which would eventually become the core of the WC system.

James Hey James! Old School Kung Fu movies still rock! The special effects and corny sound effects still crack me up!

Some of the research material shared between other museums and the VTM have (as far as I have been informed, and I am no authority by any means) not ruled out that the 5 elders may not be individuals, but 5 martial systems. I am not sure if their collaborated efforts have been conclusive, but I guess certain artifacts have opened up this possibility.

I agree with the focus of "New" theories, as that of Efficiency may overhaul/affect/develop/enhance all existing/invovled theories at the time. They had to have common denominators (consistency factors) to adhere to some type of standard/requirements for their new shift in thinking. But I am certain that Efficiency was the ultimate goal in their endeavor. This being the case, it seems more logical that there were more than 5 individuals that were involved in designing Wing Chun, including individuals who field-tested it over time.

canglong
10-10-2004, 01:38 PM
There are about 14 different lineages of Wing Chun that stem from the Red Boat timeframe (1850's), and maybe a few that are researching their historical roots beyond the Red Boats.

It is important to note that the Red Boat was a chapter of the Red Opera Company (of the 1700's) which was also a chapter of another organization. So there is a huge implication of martial and operatic involvement prior to the formation of the Red Boats of the 1850's. How did all these martial systems get on the Red Boats in the first place? And why did they end up there? All excellent points and good questions.

yellowpikachu
10-11-2004, 09:45 AM
Hi Joy,

(a note though- as discussed before some versions of Cho family- including wang kew kit(sp?) seem to have
mixed clf and other things in their art and the details of that transmission are somewhat fuzzy to me. ------- J


You have a great point.

To keep things clear, I am going to use "Yik Kam's record preserve by Cho family" in the future to differentiate from the HIS-STORY create in the present days about Cho family.



(There are some big time gaps in some Ji Shim stories between the supposed burning of "the-a" temple and Ji Shim's appearance ona red boat- from what I recall. Does your thesis involve the 5 elders)? --------J

I use the term "if" to present a view on the Five elderly stories and buring of Shao lin that. (say if we take it with blind faith)

IF one belive in the existance of the FIVE elderly and JeeShim stories.
then one by Default has to accept Ng MUi's existance is as "REAL" as JeeShim.

Thus, One cannot make the conclusion that Jeeshim exist and create the original Wing Chun and Ng Mui doesnt exist.









((Ok-in part..I am confused in part. The hung gar reference to wing chun is someone else..right?)) ----- J



Hung gar reference to Fong Weng Chun of Fujian. NOt the Wing Chun of Wing Chun Kuen.


One thing we want to be carefull also is that Hung Gar stories is not exampted from the Localization Evolution. So, all reference has to be examine with care.





(((Makes intuitive sense-does the white crane arts have ygkym anywhere? Hung Gar apparently uses that somewhere)) -------- J


Hung Gar uses the YJKYM in thier Iron wire set etc.

But is it the same YJKYM as what in SLT that is a big question. IMHO, one has to go into The 3 level : The Shape, Momentum, and Energy to verify if it is the same thing or it is just a "look Alike".


In Addition,

As for the White Crane of Fujian,

lets look at a section of what the White Crane of Fujian wrote about one of thier Stance. :D

the stance wide is equal shoulder wide or slightly wider, two knees slight bend... contract the buttock, ... inner thight clamping upward,.....

(note: if the stance width is around 1.5x of the shoulder and wider. It is no longer the same stance as above.)


Both the SLT Kuen Kuits and Emei 12 zhuang using the exactly same term --- "Equal shoulder stance".









White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.
((Was Wang Xiang Zhai from the south- or north? The so called 3 nejia styles were from the north-right?)) ---J


Wang was from the North. After he had mastered his Shing Yee Chuan, he travelled around China to test his skill.





Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )

((I dont follow- unclear)) ---- J



What I mean is Fujian White Crane history and art are well recorded, documented, and traceable. Compare with lots of Southern Chinese Martial arts style which have lots of claim made but un-trace able.






((Why the 3 points and why a 5 petaled flower? The 3 points related to the three battles? to sanchin? Sanchin breathing still at this stage?)) --- J

Yup.
The 3 points 5 petal plum flower relate to the Triangel shape, the 5 limbs power (as called in White Crane of Fujian the Goh Kee Lat)






((Understandable- to me. Did original white crane split into the various cranes?)))) ----- J


Yup,

Classical White Crane evolve and grow as time passed.







3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage.
((All from the same mother?)) ----- J


Yup.







we can also compare

((How? examples?)) ------ J

Look at each evolved Crane style, Such as Eating crane, rushing Crane, flying Crane.....




the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.
((How so? see my previous question on the ygkym ma)) ------ J



We can always compare how the classical crane and each type of evolve crane's structure, the process of generate thier power to SLT structure/ process of power generation.








The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau.
(I know zilch about Miu Shan-this is still before the emei connection. I am fuzzy on the time line here)) ------ J

Miu Shun exist in both YKS and Yik Kam's lineage.










These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.

((Miu shun has already appeared in your thesis?))



Miu Shun is always credited by Yik Kam that he is the creator of SLT system. The location of Miu Shun learn the White Crane art is in Kwi Lin of Kwan Xi.




i
And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow.

((Prallel to tree hugging standing in Chen..?)) ------ J


No..yes. Chen is just a case of these type of structure of CMA, not the mother of all.




Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power.

((Rechambering issue?))


Broken Arrow default to at every instance---- self-compensation is needed.
Broken Arrow is not a by default equilibrium in multi-dimentional resultant force platform.





BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....

((So the emei phase gets rid of sanchin breathing?))---- J


in general, The shape of White Crane of Fujian being Kept, but the momentum, and energy components has been evolved with Emei components.

Vajramusti
10-11-2004, 10:33 AM
Hi yellowoikachu-
thanks much for your comments.

I know zilch about miu shun.

Of course I know that the slt didnt fall out of the sky.

I didnt say and I I do not think that Chen standing is the original mother.

One can understand coming from different paths how aspects of nature works,

There are some yogic standing postures as well for energy development.

I understand about the very wide stance- buta little wider than shoulder is not uncommon in some Ip Man lines- see Ip man's own pictures doing the slt in old age. There are both mechanical
and energy development and manipulation via that stance.

As has often been said and you also have mentioned- the slt or wing chun itself can be done at differrent external/internal levels and mixes thereof....though there is sometimes a dialog of the deaf on these things.

Thanks.

yellowpikachu
10-11-2004, 10:44 AM
Hi Joy,


Of course I know that the slt didnt fall out of the sky. ---- J

santa Clause (sp?) give it to Yim Wing Chun in her 16's birthday with her driving lisence? No?


I didnt say and I I do not think that Chen standing is the original mother. ---- J

understood! I just reply in a technical sense. not relecting about you.


One can understand coming from different paths how aspects of nature works,
There are some yogic standing postures as well for energy development. ---- J


Yup. thus, there is YJKYM shape which is against the root chakra connection to the mother nature and there is YJKYM shape which is allowed the mother nature to support oneself.

A plus if one has the view of how root chakra works.





I understand about the very wide stance- buta little wider than shoulder is not uncommon in some Ip Man lines- see Ip man's own pictures doing the slt in old age. There are both mechanical
and energy development and manipulation via that stance. ---- J


Yup. GM Yip man knows what he was doing. That is forsure!





As has often been said and you also have mentioned- the slt or wing chun itself can be done at differrent external/internal levels and mixes thereof....though there is sometimes a dialog of the deaf on these things. --- J


I agree. This stuffs are complex issue as you know. No cookie cutter.

As you know, the reason i brought in the Chakra system, the spine, the sickle, the broken arrow, the allow the mother earth to support oneself, the living in Now....

It is just a trying to discuss what is "it" from different angle and dimentions...

canglong
10-12-2004, 08:07 AM
originally posted by a yellowpikachu
Yup. GM Yip man knows what he was doing. That is forsure! And thus I have heard GM Yip Man say that Wing Chun was from Shaolin and thus Yip Man also knew what he was saying forsure!

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 09:57 AM
Joy, crimsonking,

IMHO, SLT's YJKYM is a dynamic YJKYM instead of "fix" shape.

So, I see it as, the capability of "allow the mother earth to help one" is principle beyond the Shape.

and since "allow the mother earth to help one" involve into the realm of momentum and energy.

The Chakra energy system does be able to help one to have insight into Wing Chun's YJKYM.

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by canglong
And thus I have heard GM Yip Man say that Wing Chun was from Shaolin and thus Yip Man also knew what he was saying forsure!





True or Not True
False or NOt False
missed a fraction of milimeter off by thousand of miles.


Carefully read the details of the story, is the art of Ng Mui what she Learned from Shao lin or Ng Mui create this style after she left Shao Lin?

Find out for yourself.

Chango
10-12-2004, 12:43 PM
Hendrick,
You and the boys at it again? man you really need to get a better hobby. Chess, checkers I understand R/C is nice maybe a boat or car? No but seriously when are you going to let this two or three year dying horse flatline?

I know that you are under the impression that Wing chun came from White crane and SLT was the only set until later. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If this is your stance on this could you please grace us with your theory on what was the need to change white crane and where did the other two sets chum kiu and BJ come from? And why was there a need for the two other sets?

Please spare us from all of the cryptic messages. If we must beat this horse let's establish clear positions so everyone can benifit from the dialog as well as join in productively and make up thier own mind. I'm sure most folks on here are as tired of the word sparring as I'am.

Chango

anerlich
10-12-2004, 04:03 PM
so, why critic what you have never seen yet?

I'm extrapolating from your past performance and posts. The long list of rambling, circumlocutious posts in the past indicate that this new obsession of yours will have a similar outcome.

Prove me wrong! If you can.

More likely, I expect, will be your painting yourself into a logical and linguistic corner and refusing to answer questions. Once again, I base this expectation on your track record!

As for critiquing your spelling, you informational screw-ups with John Sculley, etc. etc. etc. , I am merely pointing out your behaviour. If your reflection in the mirror I hold up makes you angry, it isn't the mirror's fault, or mine.

Hey, I sound like you!

:p :p :p

BTW, it's "prophet". www.dictionary.com is your friend.

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 04:35 PM
From Dr Leung Ting's book --- Wing Tsun Kuen, starts page 20...


Dr Leung mentioned that following his sifu's Gm Ip Man's story, Ng Mui created her style after the burning of shao lin temple.

The art is created different compared to the Shao Lin art ....

Check it out!

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Chango
Hendrick,
You and the boys at it again? man you really need to get a better hobby. ..... I'm sure most folks on here are as tired of the word sparring as I'am.

Chango



Chango,


You are posting to a wrong person. You must mean Canglong right? He is the one brought up about GM Ip Man and Shao Lin isnt it? Attached for your infor:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And thus I have heard GM Yip Man say that Wing Chun was from Shaolin and thus Yip Man also knew what he was saying forsure!


__________________
Tony Jacobs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


BTW, people here are sharing in a democratic way on thier view. if You do not apprecaite democratic idea sharing post.
Please ignore this topic and do not post.

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by anerlich
I'm extrapolating from your past performance and posts. The long list of rambling, circumlocutious posts in the past indicate that this new obsession of yours will have a similar outcome.

Prove me wrong! If you can.

More likely, I expect, will be your painting yourself into a logical and linguistic corner and refusing to answer questions. Once again, I base this expectation on your track record!

As for critiquing your spelling, you informational screw-ups with John Sculley, etc. etc. etc. , I am merely pointing out your behaviour. If your reflection in the mirror I hold up makes you angry, it isn't the mirror's fault, or mine.

Hey, I sound like you!

:p :p :p

BTW, it's "prophet". www.dictionary.com is your friend.



Anerlich,

You are so perfect in your own critics eyes !
Yes! You must be a great PROPHET . :D

BTW, what is your post got to do with the topic of discussion?
Please open up another discussion topic if you like but not posting your unrelated critics here. Thanks and apprecaite. :D

Vajramusti
10-12-2004, 05:27 PM
Crimsonking-
thanks for your comment and civil and friendly query-which invites sharing.

there are several different kinds of yoga. Hatha is the most common kind. Like wing chun and taiji- many average teachers of yoga do not know what they are doing- but my post is not about
that phenomenon but my understanding of some roots.Took a long time and costly mistakes to come to a glimpse of understanding.

Yoga is now done for health- but traditionally most good martial arts in India borrowed pages from the yoga book of knowledge.
Some got transmitted in the historical sino-indian relationships.

The 18 hands of lohan -reputedly Boddhidharma's pre dhyan(chan-zen) regimen- probably were yoga based. The key thing of interest to me is that yoga, taiji and wing chun all attempt to master the gravitational path. They didnt need Galileo or the western language to understand the importance of the key vector path in every posture and motion.:the gravitational vector.
There are several other key forces in nature but gravity is a biggie. A slight adjustment in the skeletal tree means that it has to be balanced somewhere else.
Hence if the kua is used differently the role of the pelvis changes in order to understand the ground connection- the root has to be adjusted accordingly. Properly adjusted (each system in its own way)- the energy flows smoothly from top to bottom. How the spine is properly aligned results in the alignment of the different sections of the ygkym, the key yoga standing and sitting asanas
and taijis tree hugging and standing. The dan tiens, and the key chakras including muladhara(root) manipura, heart, throat, agni
and the crown are part of this alignment.
Since overcoming mind body spirit/enrgy dualisms is important in all 3 systems- the assumption is that proper alignment is the road to good health and good martial motion.
from the ground connection to the top of the head.
The same "truths" in nature can be arrived at independently.
A brief attempt to answer your question.
1. You mention the mountain pose- tadasana. It parrallels the start of Chen standing and the pre ygkym wing chun standing.If that is not properly done then both mechanical dynamics, energy flow, the body's own electrical signals work less efficiently.
2. Adjusting while standing on one leg is also important- wing chun has one leg balancing fundamentals, taiji has its golden rooster- yoga has the tree pose-vrkshasana- again heel/sole to crown controls.
3. The easy pose- sukhasana- sitting down- helps adjust the pelvis in a parrallel way to ygkym's sinking- in different degrees.
4. If you analyze the classic Nataraja (the lord of the dance)pose
you see(I do) a classic wc -the standing leg bent with appropriate foot adjustment- a balancing high low wu and dai bong sao and a bong gerk balanced with the bong sao.. and the heel to the crown aligned.
If one understands the fundamental standing then many things follow- the dynamics of motion- astanga transformations and the mudras/hand motions for peace or war.

Now back to the usual scheduling-who can beat up whom.

Gotta take care of the old dog's motion before tonight's wing chun.

yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Vajramusti
The 18 hands of lohan -reputedly Boddhidharma's pre dhyan(chan-zen) regimen- probably were yoga based. .



Joy,


Research shows that there was physical teaching of Chan.
Lin Zi or Lin Zai Zen has Physical teaching components in Tang dynasty. somehow, the art didnt reach down to today.

The today's Emei 12 Zhuang is also a lineage from the Lin Zi Chan lineage.


One can see the physical training forms in Moga grove or Tun Huang's wall painting / Scafting (sp?) of Tang dynasty which had Buddhist/ Indian influenced.

Snake body is very yoga like in a certain part because it has to deal with Spine directly and naturally.

kj
10-12-2004, 05:56 PM
Great post, Joy.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
The key thing of interest to me is that yoga, taiji and wing chun all attempt to master the gravitational path.

It's of interest to me also. Well put.

Regards,
- kj

anerlich
10-12-2004, 06:29 PM
"BTW, what is your post got to do with the topic of discussion?
Please open up another discussion topic if you like but not posting your unrelated critics here. Thanks and apprecaite."

You asked a question of me, which I answered. If the discussion went off track as a result, that would be your fault, wouldn't it?

If you're going to criticise people for going off topic on various threads, it would probably be a good idea to stop the regular hard left turns into the Twilight Zone you take so regularly yourself. People might think you don't practice what you preach otherwise.

anerlich
10-12-2004, 06:32 PM
wing chun has one leg balancing fundamentals

Joy, where do you see this in your WC curriculum?

Vajramusti
10-12-2004, 07:01 PM
Andrew-

fairly early in training... stading on one leg...in various raised keg positions. Also turning on one leg while making key motions with the other.
Also helps with later chi gerk.


Also note From Master Fong's organizarion of his curriculum note below-

Leg Development

Jing Dok Lop ma (front single leg)
Wang Dok Lop ma (side single leg)

Regards, Joy

anerlich
10-12-2004, 07:18 PM
I guess in TWC we have the double kicks and triple kicks in CK, BJ and the dummy, and chi gerk, though most of these are internediate to advanced levels of training.

I regularly practice slow kicking front side back and repeat, a variant on ROSS's four corner balance drills. Some of the positions here are analogous to yoga poses.

Vajramusti
10-12-2004, 07:29 PM
Andrew-

Same principles on yoga by analogy :on one leg being balanced somewhere while standing on the other leg.

I do introduce single leg standing early-

the kicking exercises are enhanced by first learning how to stand.

Balance development is a goldmine imo

anerlich
10-12-2004, 07:49 PM
Balance development is a goldmine

I agree.

Chango
10-13-2004, 06:54 AM
Hendrick,
As I expected you still did not answer any of my questions. Your intentions are clear. ok back to your dead horse.

yellowpikachu
10-13-2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Chango
Hendrick,
As I expected you still did not answer any of my questions. Your intentions are clear. ok back to your dead horse.

1, it is a democratic sharing discussion, thus there is no expectation, but sharing at free will.

2, what is the intentions of a nature phenomenon called Raining without your own intepretation? Until you understand that nice try to read my mind.

reneritchie
10-13-2004, 01:01 PM
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html

Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science
Robert L. Park, Ph.D.
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is investing close to a million dollars in an obscure Russian scientist's antigravity machine, although it has failed every test and would violate the most fundamental laws of nature. The Patent and Trademark Office recently issued Patent 6,362,718 for a physically impossible motionless electromagnetic generator, which is supposed to snatch free energy from a vacuum. And major power companies have sunk tens of millions of dollars into a scheme to produce energy by putting hydrogen atoms into a state below their ground state, a feat equivalent to mounting an expedition to explore the region south of the South Pole.

There is, alas, no scientific claim so preposterous that a scientist cannot be found to vouch for it. And many such claims end up in a court of law after they have cost some gullible person or corporation a lot of money. How are juries to evaluate them?

Before 1993, court cases that hinged on the validity of scientific claims were usually decided simply by which expert witness the jury found more credible. Expert testimony often consisted of tortured theoretical speculation with little or no supporting evidence. Jurors were bamboozled by technical gibberish they could not hope to follow, delivered by experts whose credentials they could not evaluate.

In 1993, however, with the Supreme Court's landmark decision in Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc. the situation began to change. The case involved Bendectin, the only morning-sickness medication ever approved by the Food and Drug Administration. It had been used by millions of women, and more than 30 published studies had found no evidence that it caused birth defects. Yet eight so-called experts were willing to testify, in exchange for a fee from the Daubert family, that Bendectin might indeed cause birth defects.

In ruling that such testimony was not credible because of lack of supporting evidence, the court instructed federal judges to serve as "gatekeepers," screening juries from testimony based on scientific nonsense. Recognizing that judges are not scientists, the court invited judges to experiment with ways to fulfill their gatekeeper responsibility.

Justice Stephen G. Breyer encouraged trial judges to appoint independent experts to help them. He noted that courts can turn to scientific organizations, like the National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, to identify neutral experts who could preview questionable scientific testimony and advise a judge on whether a jury should be exposed to it. Judges are still concerned about meeting their responsibilities under the Daubert decision, and a group of them asked me how to recognize questionable scientific claims. What are the warning signs?

I have identified seven indicators that a scientific claim lies well outside the bounds of rational scientific discourse. Of course, they are only warning signs -- even a claim with several of the signs could be legitimate.

1. The discoverer pitches the claim directly to the media.
The integrity of science rests on the willingness of scientists to expose new ideas and findings to the scrutiny of other scientists. Thus, scientists expect their colleagues to reveal new findings to them initially. An attempt to bypass peer review by taking a new result directly to the media, and thence to the public, suggests that the work is unlikely to stand up to close examination by other scientists.

One notorious example is the claim made in 1989 by two chemists from the University of Utah, B. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, that they had discovered cold fusion -- a way to produce nuclear fusion without expensive equipment. Scientists did not learn of the claim until they read reports of a news conference. Moreover, the announcement dealt largely with the economic potential of the discovery and was devoid of the sort of details that might have enabled other scientists to judge the strength of the claim or to repeat the experiment. (Ian Wilmut's announcement that he had successfully cloned a sheep was just as public as Pons and Fleischmann's claim, but in the case of cloning, abundant scientific details allowed scientists to judge the work's validity.)

Some scientific claims avoid even the scrutiny of reporters by appearing in paid commercial advertisements. A health-food company marketed a dietary supplement called Vitamin O in full-page newspaper ads. Vitamin O turned out to be ordinary saltwater.

2. The discoverer says that a powerful establishment is trying to suppress his or her work.
The idea is that the establishment will presumably stop at nothing to suppress discoveries that might shift the balance of wealth and power in society. Often, the discoverer describes mainstream science as part of a larger conspiracy that includes industry and government. Claims that the oil companies are frustrating the invention of an automobile that runs on water, for instance, are a sure sign that the idea of such a car is baloney. In the case of cold fusion, Pons and Fleischmann blamed their cold reception on physicists who were protecting their own research in hot fusion.

3. The scientific effect involved is always at the very limit of detection.
Alas, there is never a clear photograph of a flying saucer, or the Loch Ness monster. All scientific measurements must contend with some level of background noise or statistical fluctuation. But if the signal-to-noise ratio cannot be improved, even in principle, the effect is probably not real and the work is not science.

Thousands of published papers in para-psychology, for example, claim to report verified instances of telepathy, psychokinesis, or precognition. But those effects show up only in tortured analyses of statistics. The researchers can find no way to boost the signal, which suggests that it isn't really there.

4. Evidence for a discovery is anecdotal.
If modern science has learned anything in the past century, it is to distrust anecdotal evidence. Because anecdotes have a very strong emotional impact, they serve to keep superstitious beliefs alive in an age of science. The most important discovery of modern medicine is not vaccines or antibiotics, it is the randomized double-blind test, by means of which we know what works and what doesn't. Contrary to the saying, "data" is not the plural of "anecdote."

5. The discoverer says a belief is credible because it has endured for centuries.
There is a persistent myth that hundreds or even thousands of years ago, long before anyone knew that blood circulates throughout the body, or that germs cause disease, our ancestors possessed miraculous remedies that modern science cannot understand. Much of what is termed "alternative medicine" is part of that myth.

Ancient folk wisdom, rediscovered or repackaged, is unlikely to match the output of modern scientific laboratories.

6. The discoverer has worked in isolation.
The image of a lone genius who struggles in secrecy in an attic laboratory and ends up making a revolutionary breakthrough is a staple of Hollywood's science-fiction films, but it is hard to find examples in real life. Scientific breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of many scientists.

7. The discoverer must propose new laws of nature to explain an observation.
A new law of nature, invoked to explain some extraordinary result, must not conflict with what is already known. If we must change existing laws of nature or propose new laws to account for an observation, it is almost certainly wrong.

I began this list of warning signs to help federal judges detect scientific nonsense. But as I finished the list, I realized that in our increasingly technological society, spotting voodoo science is a skill that every citizen should develop.

_________________________

Dr. Park is a professor of physics at the University of Maryland at College Park and director of public information for the American Physical Society. He is also the author of Voodoo Science: The Road From Foolishness to Fraud (Oxford University Press, 2002). This article was originally published in The Chronicle of Higher Education, Jan 31, 2003.

old jong
10-13-2004, 01:19 PM
Rene,you should be working for Discovery channel. ;)

kj
10-13-2004, 01:53 PM
Great essay, Rene. It's a keeper.

Regards,
- kj

reneritchie
10-13-2004, 01:58 PM
Thanks. Gotta run and return my ancient secret anti-gravity Inca lazer falchion before the check clears.... :(

anerlich
10-13-2004, 04:07 PM
The western tradition in these matters is very short - but people (mainly from a dance tradition) like Todd, Sweigard, Alexander, Schultz etc have found some of these keys fairly independently of the easts hundreds or thousands of years of accumulated knowledge.

Russian MA, ROSS, Systema, etc., and health systems such as Zdorovye, have similar qualities, attributes, and subtlties, and drills and exercises to develop them, IMO of equivalent sophistication. Perhaps somewhat analogous to the above, these disciplines come from a folk dance tradition.

anerlich
10-13-2004, 04:16 PM
I may still have somewhere an issue of Whole Earth Review, which goes into the various aspects of pseudoscience in great detail.

Particularly with regard to parapsychology, great emphasis was placed, as you mentioned. on the insistence of the introduction of "noise" into the measurement, thus obfuscating the whole thing. For example, rather than being able to demonstrate telekinetic ability by mentally causing objects to verifiably move through space (which no one has done), you instead roll dice down a slope 1000 times and seize on any deviation from statistical norms as "proof" that the telekinetic one "influenced" the dice. Failure to accomplish any statistical deviation can be blamed on other external conditions, oftentimes the presence of sceptical observers whose negative vibes mess with the telekinesis.

Interesting stuff. IMO there is vastly more pseudoscience than science in MA.

YongChun
10-13-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie


6. The discoverer has worked in isolation.
The image of a lone genius who struggles in secrecy in an attic laboratory and ends up making a revolutionary breakthrough is a staple of Hollywood's science-fiction films, but it is hard to find examples in real life. Scientific breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of many scientists.



An exception is Andrew Wiles who worked in his attic for 8 years to discover a proof to Fermat's last theorem. The greatest mathematicians had been working on that for about 350 years but no one got close to ever proving it. For Andrew Wiles, it was his childhood dream. Everyone else had given up. Some said it was impossble to prove.

anerlich
10-13-2004, 04:24 PM
Scientific breakthroughs nowadays are almost always syntheses of the work of many scientists.

Indeed, much as most of the breeakthroughs in MA have come not from masters squirrelled away in temples and caves training alone and passing their "secret techniques" down to "selected disciples", but by people who train in groups, and share and try out their best techniques against friends and competitors alike, and this finding out what works empirically, rather than just theoretically.


There is a persistent myth that hundreds or even thousands of years ago, long before anyone knew that blood circulates throughout the body, or that germs cause disease, our ancestors possessed miraculous remedies that modern science cannot understand.

Yeah. Same as the persistent notion that Kung fu guys from last century, or from the Shaolin temple, had secret techniques, concepts and training methods that have been somehow lost and which we cannot hope to emulate today. Or that combat formulas developed prior to the 20th century cannot be improved on today, despite the environmental, technical and knowledge changes that have occurred since and are still occurring.

Bad science.

reneritchie
10-13-2004, 05:29 PM
This old Chinese sifu was once asked if all that stuff (Kung Fu movie MA) was real. He said he wished it were--China would win every event in every Olympics.

yellowpikachu
10-13-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie
This old Chinese sifu was once asked if all that stuff (Kung Fu movie MA) was real. He said he wished it were--China would win every event in every Olympics.


It is so real that it makes lots of money for the Southern China --- Hong Kong!

To win every Olympics, the Chinese has to improve their diet to produce bigger muscle and longer legs.... ect babies.
those needs other type of Kung Fu.

or asking the Northern Chinese to help! those doesnt need kung fu at all:D

Savi
10-13-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by anerlich
Indeed, much as most of the breeakthroughs in MA have come not from masters squirrelled away in temples and caves training alone and passing their "secret techniques" down to "selected disciples", but by people who train in groups, and share and try out their best techniques against friends and competitors alike, and this finding out what works empirically, rather than just theoretically. Yeah, and you have those "selected disciples" to thank for helping pass that knowledge to present day. Your comments speak much about your understanding, and its mostly an excuse for things you DON'T understand. Thus, your reasoning is a way to accept your own frustrations.


Originally posted by anerlich
Yeah. Same as the persistent notion that Kung fu guys from last century, or from the Shaolin temple, had secret techniques, concepts and training methods that have been somehow lost and which we cannot hope to emulate today. Or that some guys 300 years ago came up with a combat formula that cannot be improved on today, despite the environmental, technical and knowledge changes that have occurred since and are still occurring.

Bad science, bad history. That is of course, your opinion. That's about it. By the way, what's up with the mix and match details on your Hung Suen Wing Chun link, bits and pieces from here and there?

According to your history, Cheung Ng was a disciple of Yat Chan Daai Si (1600's) of the Southern Shaolin Temple. Yet it also states that Cheung Ng joined the Red Boat Company (1850's) and his disciple is Hung Gun Biu. So this means that Cheung Ng is over 200 years old. Yet at the same time it suggests that the Red Boats were around during the time of the Shaolin Temple; pre-destruction. This means that the Red Boats existed around the 1600's also. Now say What?

Bad Science and Bad history? Speak for yourself, Jack. Just because you can't understand the science behind the lineage you claim (ahem, Cheung Ng and Hung Gun Biu - cough cough - WHO ARE IN THE HFY LINEAGE) - the bottom line is, you are bad mouthing your own kung fu ancestors. Again, Mrs. Ace, Joker, Queen, JACK - speak for yourself! :rolleyes:

Chango
10-13-2004, 09:30 PM
It is human nature to often attempt to discredit or distroy what one does not understand. It's connected deeply to the fear response. In this case I think it is more along the lines of a fear of what might be revealed about one's self or even lineage etc... Of course this all depends on exactly where the insecurities should arise. but these are demons held by those who choose to act out. We can only allow this bad energy to pass as it is not yours or mine to bear.

anerlich
10-13-2004, 10:07 PM
Glad to see my fan club is still going, though I'm hoping for a few less teenyboppers in the future.


what's up with the mix and match details on your Hung Suen Wing Chun link, bits and pieces from here and there

You need to ask the people that adminster it, I had nothing to do with setting it up, but if its only successful function is to annoy overly serious young insects such as yourself, that's fine with me.

For more info, check with Benny Meng, I believe he and my shing Alf del-Brocco corresponded and collaborated on an article. Unsurprisingly to many, no doubt, Alf has resumed more serious and productive pursuits.

"Ideas of reference" is assuming that everything that happens in the world is directed at you, whereas in fact you are just another human. A classic symptom of paranoia.


Of course this all depends on exactly where the insecurities should arise. but these are demons held by those who choose to act out. We can only allow this bad energy to pass as it is not yours or mine to bear.

Agreed. Your junior seems to have some problems with anger and ideas of reference indicating paranoia. Perhaps you are right in suggesting "It's connected deeply to the fear response.".

He chose to assume my general comments about the history and philosophy of science as it applies to MA were directed at him or your group specifically, and responded with personal attacks on my academy's website and myself.

Such frothing at the mouth does not worry me unduly, as it indicates the person has no facts or logic and thus needs to resort to personal attack, the mark of a poor and troubled intellect.

Plus he seems to have some strange obsession with playing cards. Is this gambling related? Does he, like canglong, make lots of $5 bets?

If you care for your students, please, counsel them. You might remeber I suggested this to you earlier in canglong's case.

A pleasure, as always.


Mrs.

Whoops, he seems to have problems with women also. Sooner rather than later, I suggest, Chango.

I love this forum :p :p :p

Bob8
10-14-2004, 03:32 AM
Thank you Anerlich for making me laugh.

""Ideas of reference" is assuming that everything that happens in the world is directed at you, whereas in fact you are just another human. A classic symptom of paranoia."

very true!

t_niehoff
10-14-2004, 06:01 AM
If we "step outside" of WCK dogma for a moment, and just look at the evidence around us, we'll see that every *active* fighting art (those where its practitioners have continued and do continue to fight) has involved a constant, continual evolution of its method based on the continued experience of its practitioners. This is to be expected because with that experience, knowledge grows (we never know everything) -- and this is true for all physical activities, competitive activities, and areas of knowledge (theoretical and applied). Even Chi Sim Weng Chun, Andreas Hoffman's method, who some tout as the precursor to wing chun, is the synthesis of the teachings of his many different weng chun teachers.

Many "traditional" arts, particularly because of their underlying cultural reverance of their ancestors, promote the romantic idea that our ancestors knew better than we, they had more experience than we, had more knowledge than we (often secret knowledge), and so forth. These claims are not borne out by experience or common sense: we know more today, have had more experience today, have more knowledge today, etc. Of course we should respect the teachings of the past, but these should be a foundation on which to build, to grow, not to limit us or be the end of the line. This is true for all areas of knowledge.

The great thing about any activity, including a fighting method, that has as its goal the objective of producing specific results is that we don't need to rely on rhetoric or claims or beliefs -- we can look to results and judge for ourself. Nonfighting arts, theoretical martial arts, etc. -- the nonactive "fighting" arts -- don't have the results to guide them, and so they focus on what they do have: theory, stories, inferences, etc. As I said above, all those *active* fighting arts have in the past and continue to look to results (because that's what matters when you put your @ss on the line), and as folks find better and better ways to produce the results (increased fighting skills), these will be absorbed by that art. It's never the case with *active* fighting arts of "don't mess with perfection".

So any claim that there exists a system of perfect knowledge or complete knowledge or knowledge that doesn't need to ever adapt, change or grow is unrealistic. If we keep our eyes where we should -- on the ball, that is, on the results actually produced -- the dogmatic, theoretical blusterings will fall where they should -- on deaf ears.

Regards,

Terence

Vajramusti
10-14-2004, 06:09 AM
Hendrik-
the Hakka link didnt work for me- are there better call numbers?

Hakkas are in many places- including my home town- Kolkata(Calcutta).Gew up with some Hakkas.

By osmosis some Hakka influence can be seen in several MAs but the Hakka masters generally have been very secretive even with Han.

Also- in the southern rebellions- many different martial groups were ivolved from what I have read. Without reliable markers it
would be difficult to extract an exact history of a single art-it seems to me.

Vajramusti
10-14-2004, 06:14 AM
Hendrik-
the Hakka link didnt work for me- are there better call numbers?

Hakkas are in many places- including my home town- Kolkata(Calcutta).

By osmosis some Hakka influence can be seen in severa MAs but the Hakka masters generally have been very secretive even with Han.

yellowpikachu
10-14-2004, 06:16 AM
Joy,

Try it again. And see.


mms://web.hakka.gov.tw/goto-29.asf




The above site is from the Taiwan Hakka. One can see thier sets, it is more a TaiTzu Shao Lin type of art and continous to Localized Evolved with TKD .... etc and Localization Evolution was indeed mention in the Clip.

Vajramusti
10-14-2004, 06:25 AM
Hendrik-
google coudnt find it- I cut and pasted exactly what you gave.

Pure haaka arts are hard to find.

yellowpikachu
10-14-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik-
google coudnt find it- I cut and pasted exactly what you gave.

Pure haaka arts are hard to find.


Joy,

1, you dont have to use google to find it.

Just paste the whole thing in the address location where you usually place the http and click go.


2, Everything is Localize Evolve so that is the same with the Hakka arts.


3, One thing very critical and very very very important is that now a day people rely very very heavily on their Thought and Thinker and some way of thinking call -- The Scientific Way and they dont even know about this. That creat trouble. (which I find out myself in a hard way after decades). Until one can Aware "through" this "thinker or "see" clearlly what thoughts are, one doesnt know one is controlled by one's "thoughts pattern and the thinker or even Scientific thinking" in stead of using them.

See, these "scientific way of thinking, thinker, or thoughts" are good things if one is not controlled by them or being used BLINDLY.

IE: when we applied the Scientific way of thinking, often, we take that as a dogma, no different then religion dogma. So, we applied it in all situation without Clearly Observe and Aware of if the assumption we set as the innertial condition is proper or not.

So, we then use the "scientific way of thinking" to keep process the data to meet the outcome what we want. That is using "Scientific thinking" as a Tool to support our pre-judgement.

Blindly, without clearly observe the innertial condition but slam the "scientific way of thinking" to every condition is a Dogmatism.




IMHO, if we cannot go beyond the above screw up in using our mind, then we will not be able to see the Awareness training in SLT, not be able to see the Multi-Dimentional eXercution, Not be able to change our habit both in Physical and Mental realm.

PEople likes to argue about this is not scientific or that is not scientific. Well, how scienctific is oneself when one has no idea and have no capabliity of seeing the condition clearly?

Everything is So scientific once one sees the MDX and the way of FaJIng. NOthing is mysterious at all, One will automatically drop the old habits and proceed into an open wide diamention when that happen. similar to a Satori in Zen, once one sees the capability of can sense others similar to using the skin or the hair of the skin to sense, one no longer will sense or Chi the old way. Once one see the way of Fajing with the full body is relax.... one will no longer go back.

Sure, when one attain Satori, it doesnt mean one has already becoming a Buddha. That is still far from that. But, one already knows, the world he knows before fade away and cannot live like that old ways anymore. and this stuffs is appied to all art, ancient or modern. The bottom line is does one cross that zone of no return.


It is just a simple stuffs similar to when one flying a simulator plane and always crash into the brigde or big contruction....etc and one day one found out "why the heck am I keep looking at the stucture" instead of the room or space beside the stucture. after that one is no longer the same with before. Because now one is capable in looking into both the contruction and the space. the Non -dual. live will no longer be the same after that.




as a conclusion, we might have lots of invention, lots of Scientific thinking Patterns to day compare with the ancestors. Since they dont have a walkman so they will not know what is a walkman, we are grown with the walkman , what is it, how to operate it, what it can do.... we call that we are more scientific.

But then, if we put us and the ancestor of Wing Chun Kuen in a room and facing a new type of phenomenon say a physical motion where we both have no previous in contact with. I am not sure we can understant it better then the Ancestor which has strong Awareness and balance thoughts/Awareness mind processing, then we in this modern day which pile up high with others "fruits of thoughts".


And ,

Thus, I have heard from the old generation.

one way why one can spot the HIs-Story making is that, if any lineage claim to be the oldest but doesnt have this AWARENESS components in tag in a complete form. but using the " fruits of thoughts" of the present day to pile up high thier Stories. One sees throught it right away. That cant be. Because the Ancestors's paradigm is strongly based in free flow always there Awareness (in today's language -- Living in NOw ) and not based in "thoughts or Abstract thoughts concepts" which keeps spining the mind. one can change and import all the move from the whole world's martial art system to make a perfect -- one has it all, but if one doesnt have that Awareness implement. That is a modern day creation.

IN the ancient time, thus I have heard, the lineage holder is holding that Sum Fat or the Mind Method which is about a Model tool. NOt the moves or the sets. Because it is that "model tool" makes it different not the shape.


Roots and Evolution of Wing Chun Kuen is not very difficult to look into if one has a MDX view, look, observe, Aware of the differences and not stuck in those

a, I believe it is this way but have no way at all to have any tracking records in the past . everything is mystheriously (my-theories) great and top secret which only my lineage holder know .

with a fact that no one even understand what is what. And stuborndly attach to my His-story is the IT. and who dont agree with me is against me.


b, Everything has to be scientific, but one doesnt even have an idea that one is applying the Scientict blindly wihout clearly "see" the innertial condition. Everything is analyized similar to a Robot ignoring the effect of Mind but with only physical. applications only but not the core enginee.

And stubornly, redefine Wing Chun Kuen as one likes it, according to one's present day thoughts patterns or one's capability, which one hold it is more correct then others --- because I know this way works so all other ways is BS. because I know this is the limitation so all the ancient ancestors doesnt know what is going on.

Seldom, one reverse the observation and looks at one's assumption. But then always claiming who ever doesnt share thier view is Dogmatism.....




90% or more of the energy spend while looking into the Root or evolution of Wing Chun is spend on the above a and b.

Just some opinions

Bob8
10-14-2004, 08:35 AM
Hi Hendrik/Joy,

I think the link to the Hakka site was
down for a couple of hours. Two days
ago I could see the footage now I
could not. Joy, perhaps you should try
to access the website again and if it
does not work try the next day.

yellowpikachu
10-14-2004, 08:39 AM
BOB,

Thanks.

I try in this morning and now. it still works.
I am with comcast high speed.
so may be that makes a different?

canglong
10-14-2004, 09:15 AM
If you care for your students, please, counsel them. You might remeber I suggested this to you earlier in canglong's case. Your past "learning experiences" don't qualify you to lecture advise or help counsel anyone other than your immediate self. Your real fan club consist of one and he could be considered to be in a state of denial.
Such frothing at the mouth does not worry me unduly, as it indicates the person has no facts or logic and thus needs to resort to personal attack, the mark of a poor and troubled intellect. then you follow that in the same post no less with
Plus he seems to have some strange obsession with playing cards. Is this gambling related? Does he, like canglong, make lots of $5 bets? yeah you could possibly be a product of a troubled intellect but more than likely you just waste too much time feeding your own ego.

Bob8
10-14-2004, 09:56 AM
>I try in this morning and now. it still works.
>I am with comcast high speed.
>so may be that makes a different?

Could be but I do not think so unless you have
a real slow connection. This is the error I get:
"The server name may be incorrect or the server
is busy. Try again later."

anerlich
10-14-2004, 03:50 PM
Thank you for your opinions, Tony.

Your talent for psychology is exceeded only by your gambling prowess.

Have a wonderful day - an unusual phenomenon for you, I imagine!

:p :p :p

canglong
10-14-2004, 04:58 PM
Andrew,
Inagination is one thing your post are always lacking, there is a difference between love thyself and infatuted with one self. Who you got writing your material these days anyway hendrik, cause he will be quick to point out you forgot :D

...and you too have a most pleasant evening down under imagining what might have been.

anerlich
10-14-2004, 05:56 PM
Who you got writing your material these days anyway hendrik

Judging from the wholesale abuse of spelling, grammar and syntax in your posts, I assumed he was *your* ghostwriter.


and you too have a most pleasant evening down under imagining what might have been

Thanks, but I have a wonderful wife, job, pets, rolled BJJ with friends for an hour before work today, plus my favorite show (The Glass House on ABC-TV) is on TV tonight. I live in one of the most beautiful cities in the most beautiful country in the world. It's a beautiful, warm, sunny day outside.

And, in AUS, it's Friday!

I don't need to imagine what might have been - I'm living it.

Hope you get there one day, though you'll need to lighten up a bit to do so.

Keep up that guff about my egotism and self infatuation (note spelling, always happy to help), you can see that's really getting under my skin :o

"cause he will be quick to point out you forgot :D"

I prefer

:p :p :p

Savi
10-14-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by anerlich
... but by people who train in groups, and share and try out their best techniques against friends and competitors alike, and this finding out what works empirically, rather than just theoretically. Competitors are apparently the ones that convince a certain kind of "thinker" that something actually works in real life.

Reality is not confined by the tournament stage...
HFY used in San Shou (full contact) (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739)

But HFY works just fine in and out of the ring...
HFY Gong Sau Fighter (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=737)


Originally posted by anerlich
Glad to see my fan club is still going, though I'm hoping for a few less teenyboppers in the future. It's flat out embarrassing to watch you fill yourself up; making it sound like the HFY clan is your exclusive fan club.

And "Teenybopper?" Just how old do you think I am???


Originally posted by anerlich
You need to ask the people that adminster it, I had nothing to do with setting it up, but if its only successful function is to annoy overly serious young insects such as yourself, that's fine with me. So now I'm bugging you, :rolleyes: and you're disassociating yourself from your peers by referring me elsewhere (avoidance). Bad History? Apparently you don't even know where your kung fu comes from. Refer back to the Hung Suen link on your Sig line, and if you get confused there are a few articles I can refer you to about Cheung Ng and Hung Gun Biu. Perhaps then we can have a mature discussion for a change.


Originally posted by anerlich
1. Your junior seems to have some problems with anger and ideas of reference indicating paranoia. Perhaps you are right in suggesting "It's connected deeply to the fear response.".

2. He chose to assume my general comments about the history and philosophy of science as it applies to MA were directed at him or your group specifically, and responded with personal attacks on my academy's website and myself.

3. Such frothing at the mouth does not worry me unduly, as it indicates the person has no facts or logic and thus needs to resort to personal attack, the mark of a poor and troubled intellect.

4. Plus he seems to have some strange obsession with playing cards. Is this gambling related?

5. Whoops, he seems to have problems with women also. 1. Anger and paranoia? Wow, now your getting somewhere. Un/fortunately, it's further from the truth... Your labels on me are a reflection of that which you reject, and those labels serve one function: to make it easier to accept the things you have passed poor judgement on.

2. Your "general comments" are poorly veiled, where phrases like 'theoretical science' and 'shaolin caves' and 'secret disciples' and "fixed formula which cannot be improved upon" (whom we all know these comments on THIS forum) have frequently been equated to the lineage I come from. Do you think I am that stupid?!?!? Your coy act at playing innocent is a sad one. And as far as personal attacks go, speak for yourself. You give me a reason to acknowledge you.

3. "Frothing at the mouth... no facts or logic... poor troubled intellect..." Perhaps this time you should take your own advice and put your critical facilities off line for a while, they really are not working anymore. Your comments about me are so off the wall, it begs one to ask if you are talking about yourself.

4. I don't gamble... light bulb getting dim, Jack? And who is the one with a card as their avatar? Do you have a gambling problem? Not that I really care.

5. And now I have a problem with women? If that is true, then you are a girl. ;) For the record, I have no problem with women because I accept them.

Here's some advice: "The Great Way is simple, just cease having preferences."

Ooops, Jack doesn't like Chan/Zen. He rejects it.

Now, you wanna get back on topic? Wing Chun Roots is the name of the thread. It would probably be a good idea for you to get familiar with your own roots before discussing this topic, ya? Or would you rather dirty others' shoes?

Would you care to answer my question regarding the Red Boat Wing Chun history provided through YOUR link? Or would you rather avoid them and focus on my age and assumed level of knowledge and experience (like you always do)?

You have my regards.

anerlich
10-15-2004, 12:00 AM
You have my regards.

Fantastic. :o

Look, my lineage has some of the worst historical travesties made in wing Chun, and that's saying something. I've crticised them myself on numerous occasions. I see rubbish written, I have and will criticise it.

How old do I think you are? Mentally? I'll let others make up their minds after seeing your posts. I have!



It's flat out embarrassing

Don't look.


It would probably be a good idea for you to get familiar with your own roots before discussing this topic, ya? Or would you rather dirty others' shoes?

Option B's more fun.


If that is true, then you are a girl.

Your fellow riders on the short bus might find that amusing. Doesn't do your claims for maturity a lot of good.


And who is the one with a card as their avatar?

Savi, I did it for you.


You have my regards.

Great. :o

canglong
10-15-2004, 08:31 AM
Last edited by anerlich on 10-14-2004 at 02:11 PM You seem to be a quick study.
Thanks, but I have a wonderful wife, job, pets, rolled BJJ with friends for an hour before work today, plus my favorite show (The Glass House on ABC-TV) is on TV tonight. I live in one of the most beautiful cities in the most beautiful country in the world. It's a beautiful, warm, sunny day outside. You tryin'
to convince me or yourself.
Keep up that guff about my egotism and self infatuation (note spelling, always happy to help), you can see that's really getting under my skin Even now it's all about you see those are your words not mine.

anerlich
10-15-2004, 01:43 PM
You seem to be a quick study.

Shucks. Qualities you do not share by all appearances.

Look, I've changed the original "offensive" post so that it cannot possibly be construed by a sane person as pointing to anyone or any group in particular. The points refer to Xingyi, taiji, and many variants of JMA and RMA.

I'll remove the phrase "300 years ago" and "history" from other active posts, in the same spirit as Basil Fawlty's "Don't mention the war!"

If that ain't good enough for you losers, tough.

I'd say this was a pointless exercise, except that I made Bob8 laugh.

Tom Kagan
10-15-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by YongChun
An exception is Andrew Wiles who worked in his attic for 8 years to discover a proof to Fermat's last theorem. The greatest mathematicians had been working on that for about 350 years but no one got close to ever proving it. For Andrew Wiles, it was his childhood dream. Everyone else had given up. Some said it was impossble to prove.

Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.


Only time could tell if he was correct. His mathematical proof was not proof until it withstood the scrutiny for quite some time from his colleagues. Until that happened, he was just another crackpot.

Savi
10-15-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by anerlich
Look, my lineage has some of the worst historical travesties made in wing Chun, and that's saying something. I've crticised them myself on numerous occasions. I see rubbish written, I have and will criticise it. So when are you going to answer my question about Hung Suen Wing Chun's history?

Originally posted by anerlich
How old do I think you are? Mentally? I'll let others make up their minds after seeing your posts. I have!Mentally? That's not what I asked. Then again, you seem to give off the persona of an old man with the arrogance of a 12 year old.

It is quite obvious what your opinion is about me, since any informative post I direct to you is answered in a fashion a spoiled kid would answer.

Originally posted by anerlich
Your fellow riders on the short bus might find that amusing. Doesn't do your claims for maturity a lot of good. I never made any claim of maturity. I asked you "how old do you think I am?".

Originally posted by anerlich
Savi, I did it for you.Awe. Thanks for thinking about me. Now can we get passed this and get back on topic??? Or would you like to pull a "Hendrik" again?

yellowpikachu
10-15-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Savi
Or would you like to pull a "Hendrik" again?

To the two person above, It would be appreciated that you dont bring me into your off topic post.

If you people want to post about other topic, feel free to start another one.

anerlich
10-15-2004, 11:38 PM
So when are you going to answer my question about Hung Suen Wing Chun's history?

I went back and looked for a question about history. I saw a lot of tepid. bratty insults about my academy's website (like anyone cares), but no coherent or non-rhetorical questions.

In any case, I think most of what is there under history was written by my sihing Alfredo del-Brocco, who co-wrote an article with Benny Meng which is also on the site, along with one by two of your seniors. I reject your allegations of my dissociating myself from what's written there. I totally support Alfredo's version of our history. Some of the more common assertions about TWC, e.g. the Leung bik stories, are impossible to believe, s I have said here and elsewhere before.

Perhaps the article Benny co-wrote with Alfredo SHOULD be removed, as it's not up to the standard of Alfredo's other articles on the site.

You don't like what's there? Cry me a river.


Mentally? That's not what I asked.

As you said to someone once, "I'm not a waiter." Take your pompous interrogation and shove it.


Then again, you seem to give off the persona of an old man with the arrogance of a 12 year old.
since any informative post I direct to you is answered in a fashion a spoiled kid would answer.
Or would you like to pull a "Hendrik" again? [sorry yp]


:o

I've met very few arrogant twelve year olds. Your upbringing may have been different (or is it still in progress?).


I never made any claim of maturity.

An uncharacteristically sensible choice on your part.

Savi
10-16-2004, 08:39 AM
Andrew, you're hopeless.

anerlich
10-16-2004, 07:18 PM
Opinions vary.