White Crane classification

[joedoe]

I was always of the impression that Fukien white crane is considered a short hand system, however someone mentioned that both Fukien white crane and Tibetan white crane are longfist systems. Now I am confused. Can anyone clear this up for me please?

[WanderingMonk]

joedoe,

the other guy is confused.

go take a look, http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/
judge for yourself.

[joedoe]

I have seen that site, it's a very good site. I always thought that the Fukien arts - and in particular Fukien White Crane - were shorthand systems. However I am always willing to admit I might be wrong, so I thought I would verify my information first :).

Thanks.

[diego]

i was pondering the differances between the two arts the other day, and started thinking what was the first ever crane style and how did that style influence all of the many other styles that prolly didn't even have contact with each other.

i know the chinese were doing animal style chi kung thousands of years ago, and i started thinking maybe there is african tribal martial systems that mimic the crane...and if so i wonder how similar and completely differant the african crane would be from say the tibet or the fukien crane.

anyone with mad knowledge of martial arts since time began, and why humans copy the wild kingdom in the house?:)

[mantis108]

As far as my understanding go, Yongchun Baihe is born out of Southern Shaolin, which has a taste of Ch'an to it. There are different story about the origin of Yongchun Baihe. Some say its based in Taizu, other say it based in Luohan. Some even suggest it's Bodhidharma, Taizu, Monkey, Luohan and White Crane. This White Crane, however is the assumed name (Esquire White Crane) of the progenitor, Chen Jinnan, of the secret society, Tiandihui.

Yongchun Baihe is also very important in the development of the southern arts. It's central concept of 3 straights (head, torso, and feet) also influenced some northern styles that travelled south.

The other white crane is a branch of Tibetant Lama, which is Vajrayana based. Tibetant Lama is long rang and make use of footwork.

As for why these art are animal base, Buddhist (has Hindu root)and Daoist disciplines are mysticism based. It is quite common to find animal(s) being the object of "meditation" since animal(s) once upon a time were consider "gods" or "spiritual beings".

Mantis108

[diego]

Originally posted by mantis108

As for why these art are animal base, Buddhist (has Hindu root)and Daoist disciplines are mysticism based. It is quite common to find animal(s) being the object of "meditation" since animal(s) once upon a time were consider "gods" or "spiritual beings".

Mantis108
Interesting point...which makes me even more curious to find out more about the styles that had no contact with each other, but came up with the same concepts while borrowing from the animal spirits.:)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by diego
Interesting point...which makes me even more curious to find out more about the styles that had no contact with each other, but came up with the same concepts while borrowing from the animal spirits.:)

what are these "same concepts" you are referring to?

[diego]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
what are these "same concepts" you are referring to? i'm not sure but when you find them please give me a ring...:)

nah, say an african chief developed a tiger style...he likes the aggressive clawing action of the tigers patting attacks...some chinese triad loves the tigers fighting skills as well...it would be interesting to find out if some african chief developed very similar forms to the triads tiger style...especially if the african chief lived hundereds of years before or after the triad and none of there students ever met.

I'm just curious why humans do what they do, make sense?.

[martin watts]

Although the emphasis is on short range muscle focus in White Crane there are many long range moves. For example if you look at the beginning of the Shiouw Chian form on my site www.fujianbaihe.com the first section has jumps and pretty swift entering moves. In addition, many of the excersises and form moves are long range double handed claws and grabs. It is true that the stance is short, and also the leg work lesser than many other systems, but in the feeling I have is that the intention is very much an 'enter and destroy' type mentality ( except of course we don't spar so I really don't know!! ).

May be it is easy to confuse long body positions with long range systems. But yes to some extent I suppose the simple fact that we are a little Tan Tien obsessed and elbow / knee position focussed means it is shorts. ( now I am contradicting myself but that is a crane feature as well!! )

www.yongchunbaihechuen.com is my site.

Martin Watts

[Hermes3X]

diego,

The aztec eagle knights attacked In zigging and zagging patterns and screeched like eagles when going into battle

[Hermes3X]

what can you all tell me about this school?

http://www.whitecranestudio.com/home.htm

[martin watts]

I have been contacted by the guy ( Serge I think is the name ). Prior to that I had tried to contact him with no anser. Most of what he is doing is not crane, and I think derived through a lot of practice of basic excersises. But this is good. I am impressed by the video clips I have seen of him, and his honesty in his emails.

If I were in Paris I would definitely pop in to say hello. I think his fundamental stuff is probably quite a high level, even if it may be not from a specific lineage / style.

Martin

[Buddy]

Serge is a top notch guy from the Tzuranmen (Natural Gate) style.
He also practices XIngyi and Bagua zhang. Go see him.

[diego]

Originally posted by Hermes3X
diego,

The aztec eagle knights attacked In zigging and zagging patterns and screeched like eagles when going into battle i actually recall hearing about this...gotta good link?:)

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
Interesting point...which makes me even more curious to find out more about the styles that had no contact with each other, but came up with the same concepts while borrowing from the animal spirits.:)

WanderingMonk,

I think, he is realizing that there may be an essence that is present in all these systems that has developed "Indepently".

I have spent time down that road and though the jourany was worth it, the end was not as I expected.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by mantis108
As far as my understanding go, Yongchun Baihe is born out of Southern Shaolin, which has a taste of Ch'an to it. There are different story about the origin of Yongchun Baihe. Some say its based in Taizu, other say it based in Luohan. Some even suggest it's Bodhidharma, Taizu, Monkey, Luohan and White Crane. This White Crane, however is the assumed name (Esquire White Crane) of the progenitor, Chen Jinnan, of the secret society, Tiandihui.

Yongchun Baihe is also very important in the development of the southern arts. It's central concept of 3 straights (head, torso, and feet) also influenced some northern styles that travelled south.

The other white crane is a branch of Tibetant Lama, which is Vajrayana based. Tibetant Lama is long rang and make use of footwork.

As for why these art are animal base, Buddhist (has Hindu root)and Daoist disciplines are mysticism based. It is quite common to find animal(s) being the object of "meditation" since animal(s) once upon a time were consider "gods" or "spiritual beings".

Mantis108

If you look at the first division of each of these Crane styles, they are 110% different. They start to move closer when you compare it to the short hand set of the Lama's version. You would still have to add the coiling and jing that the Lama pai guys use with Needle-n-cotton (or Dao lo division). Then they look a lot more alike.

[diego]

i read in a yang jwing ming southern crane book that in the ming dynasty a shaolin monk was sent to tibet to spread shoalin and introduced shoalin crane which became lama pai!?

i'm wondering where YJM got his info from...anyone heard this before?

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta


the end was not as I expected. what happenned?:)

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
i read in a yang jwing ming southern crane book that in the ming dynasty a shaolin monk was sent to tibet to spread shoalin and introduced shoalin crane which became lama pai!?

i'm wondering where YJM got his info from...anyone heard this before?

If you are taking about Jeffery Bolt's teacher. He publish that in an artical back in the lates 80's early 90's. Pak Hok approached (challenged) him on that -- Jimmy Yang got the information from a Chinese soap opera. There is no historical evidence supporting that, and White Crane has never existed in Tibet. Especially what we know of as the earlest versions of the system.

What we do know is that there was a sharing of Martial arts between the Monastries (Wu Dong, Shoalin, the Vajrayana school, and a few others) this happened in China, not Tibet.

This does not mean that Tibet did not have a tradition of warriorship (shall I call it what it really was -- soldering), it was like the Mongolins.

Now, I herd there was a time when a Vajrayana trained monk was the abbit at shaolin during the rain of the Mongolians. This is another point used to say that Lions Roar Began at Shoalin.

Remember, during the 50's and 60's, the cultural revolution distroyed every thing. There are no records.

In Tibet (India was the greatest influence) there were men that made themselves "warrior monks" called the Black Face ... (monks, lamas). They had no connection to the systemization of martial arts that was going on in China. Black Face monks started out as something like a police force and temple guards. But, They were short lived because the Dhalli Lama disbanded them.


Any way, Tibet makes up only one segment of the Lions Roar. When teachers tell you a history. Wheter it is true or not should not be the issue for you. The real issue is the meaning (lessen) of the story or fable we call history.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by diego
what happenned?:)

Being Human

[diego]

Originally posted by CharlesDaCosta
If you are taking about Jeffery Bolt's teacher. He publish that in an artical back in the lates 80's early 90's. Pak Hok approached (challenged) him on that -- Jimmy Yang got the information from a Chinese soap opera. There is no historical evidence supporting that, and White Crane has never existed in Tibet. Especially what we know of as the earlest versions of the system.

What we do know is that there was a sharing of Martial arts between the Monastries (Wu Dong, Shoalin, the Vajrayana school, and a few others) this happened in China, not Tibet.

This does not mean that Tibet did not have a tradition of warriorship (shall I call it what it really was -- soldering), it was like the Mongolins.

Now, I herd there was a time when a Vajrayana trained monk was the abbit at shaolin during the rain of the Mongolians. This is another point used to say that Lions Roar Began at Shoalin.

Remember, during the 50's and 60's, the cultural revolution distroyed every thing. There are no records.

In Tibet (India was the greatest influence) there were men that made themselves "warrior monks" called the Black Face ... (monks, lamas). They had no connection to the systemization of martial arts that was going on in China. Black Face monks started out as something like a police force and temple guards. But, They were short lived because the Dhalli Lama disbanded them.


Any way, Tibet makes up only one segment of the Lions Roar. When teachers tell you a history. Wheter it is true or not should not be the issue for you. The real issue is the meaning (lessen) of the story or fable we call history.

cool man:) thanks for that info. peace