Something that caught my attention (a quote)

[old jong]

This comment from an other thread caught my attention:


While others may be disenchanted with WC and have given it up for Hsing I etc,

Why is it so?...This is a common phenomenom.We see guys leaving Wing Chun for other arts ,they see as more "powerfull"!
Hsing I (as it is the mentioned art in the quote) is known for it's structure and feet/hands coordination to produce power.It is not the various "techniques" that matter really but the attributes developped in the practice.It is a relatively simple and direct art,just like Wing Chun and it is a bridge between "internal and external" as Wing Chun (imo).Is it simply easier to integrate than Wing Chun?...
Why do so many Wing Chun people have a problem developping a good moving structure?...
Many will cultivate good power and structure in SLT (even if they don't fully realise it!) but the instant they have to put it in motion,they seem to lose everything! The key to good structure/motion/power cultivation is Chum Kiu but it seems to be the weak link of many wingchunners.Many will consider Chum Kiu as a form for learning "turning" or kicks among other reasons but (IMO) it is solely for learning to coordinate power and motion.The more this form is studied and understood!...The more real power can be applied in Chi-Sau,sparring,you name it!...The trick is to simply use the teachings of the form.Done properly,it possess all the attributes of SLT but using motion as an additive.Just like Hsing I!....(In results anyway!) ;)

BTW,good boxers and others with good hands/feet coordination achieve similar results.It is just a question of choosing the weapon you like best and training it right!...It always start from the stance.

[Ernie]

Jong ,
In all seriousness , you’re right ,
It’s not that wing Chun is lacking , on paper it’s a fantastic training concept .
But it’s lacking in the training methods ,
This has always been my beef when I meet other wing Chun people that seem squeamish about pressure testing/training I didn’t say sparring . but progressively adding intensity and safety equipment along the way .

Using modern methods and tools [ like every body else is doing , boxing etc…]

Not removing chi sau , or forms or any of the core foundation but further investigating it , in ourselves

The first few generations [ our teachers ] were strong and trained with purpose , they had a goal to apply there training and prove it worked . but each generation after got weaker , the goal was replaced with accumulating techniques or belts or certificates and titles . the beginning of the end in my eyes .

Once the goal was lost so was the honesty and the method became what ever anyone wanted to make up and call it wing Chun . so now many buy into the hype train for a few years and get all chi sau skilled , but then meet up with a local boxer or Thai guy or what ever and get served and immediately blame the art .

Thing is did they research beyond there own sifu , did they train in a way that would produce results against a real aggressive person with a destructive mindset , probably not

So who is really to blame


It’s easier to put the blame on something else rather then to be honest with oneself

With stuff like chi sau competitions and bigger organizations popping up you will continue to see wing Chun become karate or tai chi a pale shadow of what it once was .

Sad but true

People need to take personal responsibility for there own growth .


Ps

Your dead on about chum kui

Once in motion there is so much there to guide you =)

[S.Teebas]

My guess is that people want fast results.

Keeping the focus, linking of the body and maintaining relaxation required for combat effictive results takes patience, constant practice and dedication.

[Broken Wing]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
My guess is that people want fast results.



it is a shame that it seems the art (any art really) is going especially in America. I wanted to get into Tai Chi and other arts so i purchased a couple of vids and what they (instructors in the vids) were saying the same thing that people want fast results so they don't learn the other aspects of the art they pursue. They get relly disappointed and quit. i am not even referring to the "johnny-come-latelys"
I am 35 and began a couple of years ago and rue the fact I didn't learn at such an early age so I don't know if I can get the "spiritual' aspects of the art of (hybrid of Shotokan and TKD called Yoseikan karate-do) and b/c i hurt myself i started to put the art in limbo and take Tai Chi for health but even in that art there are so many things to learn much less master.
I actually was contemplating WC but not a soul near me at all.:o

[Vajramusti]

I think that people should quit doing wing chun. (VBG).

It is sucha poor art.

It's punches are not as powerful as boxing.
It's knife work is not as good as FMA.
Its footwork is not as good as boxing.
Its polework is not as good as a spear.
Its rear leg kick is not as powerful asa a MT kick.
Its "grapper" work(borrowing from Hendrik) is a crapper.
It's internal work is not as good as taiji.
We have no video records of Ip man or Leung Jan fighting.

So why bother with wing chun-please quit wing chun.

Actually a lot of people should.
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FWIW- an individual figure comes to mind-
Joe Montana.
When he was the quarterback(American football) in San Francisco
- for so long.
His arm was not the most powerful.
His feet were not the fastest.
He was not the strongest.

But he was one of the very best if not the best quarterback -period. Knowing where to go, when to go, how to go- with the right timing and vision.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong

Why do so many Wing Chun people have a problem developping a good moving structure?...




My take is that so many dont see the multi-dimentional interaction.

thus, it becomes a dull practice of following what "sifu said" and See the world with "sifu's describtion" which often is only two dimentional or "dont it correct /done is wrong" the most.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
My guess is that people want fast results.

Keeping the focus, linking of the body and maintaining relaxation required for combat effictive results takes patience, constant practice and dedication.


very true!

there is no way to speed up the Multi-dimentional personal observation, practice, and gain usefull "experience" . that takes lots of time.

[Tydive]

As a newcomer to WC I have a different perspective. I have seen exactly what OJ and Ernie are describing in pretty much every art I have studied. It has nothing to do with WC and everything to do with our ADD / MTV mindset.

People want belts, independant of skill. There are many McDojo's out there, serving to the lowest common denominator. The vast majority of the people I see are focused on the form over the function (and the training progression encourages that). So, if you want to make money you take the kids, you promote people who can do the technique even if they never develop a solid center or real understanding of the art. How many people want to hear that it can take decades to "master" the basics?

If you look hard you can find those places where good training happens. Those lucky enough to have a good teacher, and who are willing to put in the work can reach a very high level of skill. Complaining about the rest of the guys eating at McDonalds while you eat prime rib is kinda silly. I say learn & teach to your capacity but don't sweat it if somebody else does not want to eat at your table.

Now, if the place that you study is serving sugar burgers and you want some good ol meat... it's time to move on. If the chef is taking your prime rib and cooking it wrong why eat it?

[Broken Wing]

Amen tydive...my sentiments exactly

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
My take is that so many dont see the multi-dimentional interaction.

thus, it becomes a dull practice of following what "sifu said" and See the world with "sifu's describtion" which often is only two dimentional or "dont it correct /done is wrong" the most.





Hendrik I finally figured you out ,
You’re a friggen Martian

like that old guy from that TV series my favorite Martian , with the TV antennas coming out of his head

your post sound just like the way he used to talk

you have been stranded here for a few hundred years , when your space ship crashed into emie mountain , you personally invented wing Chun out to torture humanity with some imaginary thing they could never attain .

but now a few hundred years later

it has evolved and you’re p*ssed off because you want the credit

it's all so clear to me know


it makes exactly the same amount of sense as a multi-dimensional brain f*rt



like any good alien you have to keep shedding bodies , this explains all the diferent names you use

I'm on to you man :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
Hendrik I finally figured you out ,
You’re a friggen Martian

I'm on to you man :D



great input from a tribal chief in amazon.

keep making smoke for communication !

yes you are the greatest chief in the world ! as you love to be called.

even thought our statelite data tell us your whole tribe is going to be wiped out the next rain season.
;)

[Ernie]

is that some more of your special secret martian talk

i'm on to you man , all that double intergalactic time travel ic chip stuff

you must live in roswell :)


i guess our limited earth up front honest truthful communications would seem like smoke signals to such an advanced super being like yourself

but give us time we will find the stargate to your home world , the land of super slt and energy bodies that zap lighting from there finger tips :eek: :p :p :p :p :p

[anerlich]

My guess is that people want fast results.

Wing Chun was *meant* to deliver fast results, if history is to be believed. So what went wrong?

(Spare the multi-dimentional [sic] stuff please. IMO that sort of thinking is part of the problem, not the solution)

[anerlich]

While others may be disenchanted with WC and have given it up for Hsing I etc,

I gave up Xingyi for Wing Chun. :cool:

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
is that some more of your special secret martian talk




there is no secret in wheather satelite signals.

but one has to own a reciever and learn how to use it.

;)

sure, one can keep praying to rain god, or using the real time 'fighting' trial and errors to find out if the tribe got wipeout.

sure sure the chief is the greatest fighting hero. but, some rather watch tv news to evacuate away from the storm.;)

different world different choice. nothing good or bad.

[Ernie]

there is no secret in wheather satelite signals.

but one has to own a reciever and learn how to use it.



--- I know but we all don't have those martian antenna like you :D


oh our poor tribe , the rain god is coming what shall we do

wait lets cook the martain we are so primitive we will '' just do it '' and sacrfice him this will stop the rain

oh thank you wise martian king of double speak


------- hendrik i can keep this up all day :D

how about a truce

when you start to contribute [ with out the hidden aganda ]

i'll go back to my old self and contribute as well

i'm sure the masses our bored of our little games

though i do so enjoy the gift of double talk you have taught me

so how we can talk in circles and say nothing [ that was my point behind all this , just an endless cycle of words ------- stop the insanity

;)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by old jong
Why is it so?...This is a common phenomenom.We see guys leaving Wing Chun for other arts ...It's a common phenomenon in any art. Wing chun is an art with one of the highest numbers of practitioners in the world, so you're bound to see more movement to and fro. A lot of this movement is, as often stated, because of politics.

But also, in personal development terms, I've often heard (tho I don't have a source for this) that the grade when most people quit Japanese arts is shodan. That's blackbelt. But the 'sho' character reads 'first' as in 'starter' not the numerical value 'first'. It is the beginner's level, when people have absorbed the basics to a reflex, and then they can really start practising basics in earnest!!! :D

It's at this level that people get more bored with the arts. They have seen the Ox, and the Ox is about to wander off out of range again (if you think this is esoteric nonsense, find the Ten Stages of Oxherding... or Chasing the Ox or whatever it's called - it's one of the best ways of explaining learning, and enlightenment, and 'michi'/'-do'/'tao' I've ever read... it's a classical description of learning curves and what have you). They think they get it. They've seen it, and recognise it as attainable. Despite the fact that at this stage, deep down they know it's a path, and there is never any getting it, there is only progress, and inching a little down the road. It's at that stage that they re-evaluate there commitments to other areas in life, the family, training time, work etc... and for that reason many think of changing/stopping/moving on.

So back to the politics, again, it's at this level that I suspect most people move on. The reason they move on is because for tsome reason they belive the politics will be less in other schools. Generally of course, the only reson that it would be less is because they are new and not privy to the machinations of the new organization.

Of course, many people move on at earlier stages. Of course, more and more this is MTVism, but then there may actually be a limit to MTVism , a saturation point. The people who come to martial arts instead of just watching MTV are those who are looking for something to give them balance, be it balance of physical vs visual stimulation, exercise over sloth, whatever. And in these cases it can often be as much a failure of the artist/teacher to provide any balance, as the fault of the student (who often starts keen).

You can say that this is because the student lacks motivation and patience, but that rather absolves the teacher from his/her responsibility, not to entertain, but to provide something which isn't just replacing one dogma of 'you can get what you want when you want so why bother trying' (as espoused by disposable culture and MTVism) with another dogma (insert one of a stock of many MAist cliches in here) which really is just laziness, intellectual disingeniousness and self-deceit on the part of the teacher.

In short, most people are looking for something not that gets them out of the box, but that joins all the dots, that helps them to define the extent and limits of the box and to include what belongs for them in their box, and what they get from MA is... another box!!!

This isn't peculiar to WC, nor to MA.
they see as more "powerfull"!Is this the case? There are many reasons why people may leave, aside from the one mentioned above. Some people decide they want a more sporty and less theoretically weighty MA. Some people decide they want a more theoretically weighty MA. Some people decide they don't want an MA at all! I don't see this as a cause for worry. I'm not as confident as Vaj that what I've got is the real deal - what I've got is so far good enough for me and has tested out quite well against what other people have got, and is still teaching me new things but I don't think it's the dogs bollocks - so I'm not going to say I think people should leave WC, but I'm not going to cry over those that do.


Hsing I ...Is it simply easier to integrate than Wing Chun?...
Why do so many Wing Chun people have a problem developping a good moving structure?...No, of course not. It may look it to some people, but I don't see why. It's another path.

And to the second one.. it's because a lot of people spend a year or more on slt with precious few integrated moving drills, so by the time they go to ck they are already stuck in what they see as a static slt. Some people are lucky enough to be taught some basic stepping, turning etc simultaneously as part of their expansion on the slt base.

If you are taught static positions, you will develop statically. If you want to develop flow and movement, and spontaneity, you have to practise flow and movement.

Now, my guess is that Vaj and a few others will say that slt is not static, which is fine, I agree. But you've been training for a long time, so with the benefit of hindsight and looking at slt through the ck, bj etc glasses you can see the sequential development. But how many people can honestly say that their first exposure to slt was a dynamic experience?

I don't mean dynamic in terms of always sending your energy out, always keeping those hands moving, always keeping the breathing alive, or even in some ck-related way as in dynamic bridging to the floor, linking and delinking your foot-knee-waist etc connections so that you can turn on the power when you need it and be empty when you don't. I mean really dynamic! As in understanding exactly where slt relates to moving quickly and decisively as in a fight!
Many will cultivate good power and structure in SLT (even if they don't fully realise it!) but the instant they have to put it in motion,they seem to lose everything! The key to good structure/motion/power cultivation is Chum Kiu but it seems to be the weak link of many wingchunners.Many will consider Chum Kiu as a form for learning "turning" or kicks among other reasons but (IMO) it is solely for learning to coordinate power and motion.The more this form is studied and understood!...The more real power can be applied in Chi-Sau,sparring,you name it!...The trick is to simply use the teachings of the form.Done properly,it possess all the attributes of SLT but using motion as an additive.Just like Hsing I!....(In results anyway!) ;)OK generally I agree with this assessment, but have a slight nitpick with your use of 'additive'. Slt to ck should be a progression, an integration, not an addition. If it's an addition, then you have the lack of connection between the two that results in poor moving structure.

And again, why don't they realise they have good power and structure?! Cos they don't practise live. Cos they aren't shown the connection between a standing form and a moving form. Cos the teacher has failed!

The other reason IMO, that there is often poor connection in movement is that there isn't enough practise from a disengaged position. You can't learn a martial art by only working on how your body works in tandem with somebody else's (chi sao overreliance?!) any more than yyou can learn one by learning how it works through forms. There has to be balance, learning about engagement, disengagement, lack of flow etc. The generation before ours/our teachers, the WSLs, the William Cheungs, the Hawkins Cheungs etc, were fighting from day one! Or maybe day two! We can't do this without becoming sociopaths, but we can spar, which is as close as we can get!

Just a few ideas.

Good post OJ.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie



so how we can talk in circles and say nothing [ that was my point behind all this , just an endless cycle of words ------- stop the insanity

;)



The chief will only see smoke but not the satelite in the orbit.

cant blame the chief, praise for his courage and honesty about what he saw.

but until he learn about smoke is not the whole universe. he will continous to look up with his bear eyes and will only see smoke. and insist nothing out there beyond his eyes sight. and, it is true, one doesnt expect more from a Chief, isnt it? and there is no point trying to change the chief's attitude and behavior. Let the chief be the happy with his tribe in the Amazon.

He has spear and knife and facing the tigers and lions. and that is very different then people using laser target gun for safari.

Ok, still the Chief is right, The bullets are going round and round in cycle, no talk about knife and spear which he uses fluently.

The end of the story.

;)

[PaulH]

Ants are amazing. They are everywhere and yet nowhere. I did not pay much attention to these micronians until one day I laid my unbelieving pair of eyes on a fast moving roach as I was just about to take a bite on my All-American Chili Dog at Tommy's Burger. Surely there must be a mistake at this greasy popular food place! To be sure my eyes did deceive me. The roach was very dead, and some good black ants had been working very hard to carry it home. Strangely enough there were also some socializing red ants on top of the roach. They seemed rather enjoying themselves with swinging their furious antennas at each other for no discernible rational patterns. I guess 20/80 law is at work even with our ants! I laid down the Chili Dog and dreamed of WC - How wonderfully black and red it is at the KFO on some antsy moment... =)

[black and blue]

"I gave up Xingyi for Wing Chun."

Fool!!!! :D :D :D

Regarding belts and MTV, there was a grading system in both the Wing Chun lineages I studied, but there is nothing like that in my XingYi. I turn up and train hard and when I'm ready to learn something new I'm taught it. Suits me just fine that way.

Both arts share a similarity in that you can quite quickly learn to apply the movements in an external sense - the XingYi takes a long time to get 'technically correct' as, like all the internal arts, there are so many requirements and internal mechanisms you need to work.

I've scratched the surface with my XY, but I know for certain it allows me to hit far harder. I didn't have weak WC punches, but if I step and hit a heavy bag using WC, and then step and hit it using a XY method, the results are obvious. This must be a structural issue as I'm not physically any stronger now than I was when studying WC (if anything I'm lighter now because I shed buckets of sweat during the XY elements and form practise).

Joy says of Wing Chun:

"It's punches are not as powerful as boxing.
It's knife work is not as good as FMA.
Its footwork is not as good as boxing.
Its polework is not as good as a spear.
Its rear leg kick is not as powerful asa a MT kick.
Its "grapper" work(borrowing from Hendrik) is a crapper.
It's internal work is not as good as taiji.
We have no video records of Ip man or Leung Jan fighting.
So why bother with wing chun -
please quit wing chun."

Ironically, you may well be right, and, as it happens, I did.... and haven't looked back!

:D

Perhaps some people turn from WCK to XY because, as OJ said, of power. XY's five elements are, after all, really all about different ways to release power.

Maybe Anerlich shifted the other way (from XY to WCK) because he wanted to do things softer and spend more time chatting in class etc (KIDDING, JUST KIDDING, HEHEHEHEHEHEHE :p :D ;) )

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
The chief will only see smoke but not the satelite in the orbit.

cant blame the chief, praise for his courage and honesty about what he saw.

but until he learn about smoke is not the whole universe. he will continous to look up with his bear eyes and will only see smoke. and insist nothing out there beyond his eyes sight. and, it is true, one doesnt expect more from a Chief, isnt it? and there is no point trying to change the chief's attitude and behavior. Let the chief be the happy with his tribe in the Amazon.

He has spear and knife and facing the tigers and lions. and that is very different then people using laser target gun for safari.

Ok, still the Chief is right, The bullets are going round and round in cycle, no talk about knife and spear which he uses fluently.

The end of the story.

;)

you got it [ chief ]

peace out :cool:

[Ernie]

Mat-- We can't do this without becoming sociopaths, but we can spar, which is as close as we can get!




----- who you calling a sociopath :)

great insightful and honest post ;)

[Vajramusti]

Give up on wing chun folks.

The slt has that silly stiff stance- dont do it too long- you will freeze.

Do the rage in the cage.

Top flight boxers dont enter those things because they know they will get wiped out.

Fight fight against resiting opponents. get real.

There are only so many ways to use the body- so move and fight in every conceivable way-

we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them on land, we will fight them in the air. Wing chun is obsolete. MMA forever.

[Ernie]

joy-we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them on land, we will fight them in the air. Wing chun is obsolete. MMA forever.


i knew you would come around :)

now we just have to get Jong

[Mr Punch]

Ernie
i knew you'd come round :)

now we just have to get JongLOL, it's the Stepford Sifu... "I simply must have that recipe, I simply must have that recipe..." :D

Joy, what was your point? Not challenging, just asking!

My point was that it's something the sifus have to work on, keeping wing chun alive, not just the students, and to say anything else is intellectually and physically dishonest...

I do practise MMA... because I enjoy it. I also stay true to my wing chun. My wing chun and my aiki and my kendo, my TMA, are what will serve me into my dotage (next month at this rate!!! :D ) , and I hope I'll be able to serve them by keeping them alive for the next generation: my MMA are just for fun, cos I like whaling on people and getting smacked down into my place! But that doesn't mean I can't transfer some skills from WC into MMA, and it doesn't mean my MMA doesn't offer some realistic foils for my WC.

And like I said, I don't think slt is stiff, but can I transmit its dynamism to my students? If not I've failed!

If it was your reply to this that was to come up with your mantra of 'Everybody quit, everybody do MMA' then for once I find cynicism unhelpful and not very funny.

[YongChun]

Hi Joy,

No one is going to listen to anyone's talk unless they can prove it for all to see. Everyone's master is the greatest and so this is for the most part also meaningless talk. Everyone has theories based on their own experiences which may not match someone else's experiences.

Those people who fight for a living or who train in the rough and tough ways and constantly test themselves are usually good fighters. Whether they will succeed on the street or in the next ring fight can't be predicted. But, for sure, they can beat up the untrained most of the time.

The reverse logic that those that don't train as intensively can't fight isn't as clear. I have seen many examples of people who have fought as part of their living e.g. correctional work, police work, bouncing and yet they don't train very intensively but they train regularly in a way that doesn't get them injured in the process. They just play.

According to Joe Lewis the tough guys are not the ones on the street but the ones in the ring. Others look down upon people who are good in tournament fighting and say that isn't real anough. I have seen a successful competitive fighter who didn't seem to have really any advantage over a non competitive fighter when they sparred. I have seen an experienced Escrima fighter and teacher have a fight to a draw with someone who just trained the Wing Chun Butterfly knife techniques for one year. By logic these things shouldn't happen but they do.

For those who are young and able, I would recommend people study Wrestling, BJJ, boxing, Thai boxing before some classical martial art. But maybe for children it's better to do classical martial art, then the reality sports when they hit the teen years and then back to classical martial arts. For real self defense, the whole are of fighting psychology also needs to be addressed (as in some women's self defense courses). But not everyone has the interest to follow that kind of approach. Furthermore, it can't be proven that this kind of approach is any better than anyone's classical approach to training.

I think a pure classical martial arts approach is also just as good and for those interested to test themselves, mixing it up with friends in other arts or at tournaments is a good thing.

In the real world any training will help but no amount of training may be good enough to deal with all the circumstances that can arise. Blackbelts and masters have been beaten by people much less skilled. For the most part these skilled people did the wrong thing at the wrong time. They made the wrong decision, they caught caught by surprise and so they got beat. Normally they would have had no problem to beat those guys inthe ring.

We all have limits to how much force and speed we can handle. Humans have limits. There isn't that much difference between strikers in any art. Luck plays a big factor too.

In the end it's a matter of taste and what you enjoy doing. It's up to everyone to keep their eyes and ears open to the experiences of those who really fight. There are lots of ways to train fighting. Animals learn from light play and from that go into the real thing. One real encounter doesn't guarantee success for the next real encounter. Each such encounter brings the same fear because each encounter can result in death.

Constant play builds in the tools necessary for the job to be done. It's the definition of what constitutes useful play that is the problem. I think the training for different age and fitness levels is necessarily also different. If you take an old lady and put on a pair of boxing gloves, head protection, shin protection, chest protection and have her spar against a 220 pound guy in the ring is totally stupid and not the best way to increase her chances in a possible home invasion. However if she wants to make a career out of kickboxing, then that might be a good thing.

[Vajramusti]

Ray sez:

Hi Joy,

No one is going to listen to anyone's talk unless they can prove it for all to see.
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Listen? What is that?
A future invention?
Ting jing? keng keng?
who is listening to what when and how?
The world is my idea- Nick-didnt Schopehauer say something like that?
Or I gotta be me- oops that wasPaul Anka
Dont look at the abyss of wing chun- the abyss or the abess may look back at you. Nutzsche

[old jong]

Wing Chun should be soft and strong,mobile and grounded,hard hitting and relaxed.
All should develop those attributes in "normal" practice without having to bring in outside additives .IMO, a school that does not produce these results show poor quality teaching.Many interventions in this thread point toward this idea....And a possible invasion from Mars but that's an other subject!...;)

[Vajramusti]

Old Jong sez:
And a possible invasion from Mars but that's an other subject!...
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But Venus is better!

[old jong]

Venus is a very "hot" planet!...Around 600degrees farheinheit during the winter!...It even gets hotter during it's "menopause"...;)

[Kevin Bell]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ernie
[B]Jong ,

This has always been my beef when I meet other wing Chun people that seem squeamish about pressure testing/training I didn’t say sparring . but progressively adding intensity and safety equipment along the way .

Using modern methods and tools [ like every body else is doing , boxing etc…]

Not removing chi sau , or forms or any of the core foundation but further investigating it , in ourselves



Got to agree with that one mate.looking into the bill jee form i myself can see biting, spitting, pulling hair, gouging, stamping etc.Point being your using concepts of wing chun there aint no rules.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Listen? What is that?
A future invention?


Listening is an old skill from the past. Some people even used listening skills as part of that obsolete training program called Chi sau. No one has ever won in the Ulitmate fighting contests by listening. By the time you finish listening, you could get punched in the head. So in fact it is very dangerous to do so. Perhaps in the future we will invent news ways to listen. Perhaps someone will revive the concept. It's a very novel thing.

[Vajramusti]

Ray sez:

Perhaps in the future we will invent news ways to listen. Perhaps someone will revive the concept. It's a very novel thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Waiting for Godot.?!

[black and blue]

Well, perhaps advocating Go.dot com

;)