Injecting a little realism

[Icewater]

I'm sure this topic has been hashed, but I'm new here so forgive the additional hashing.

We were going over some knife disarm techniques the other week in class. There were 3 basic exercises we were working in groups of 2. The sifu was demonstrating that timing is an important factor and used me as an example. Being 6', I admittedly am not great at techniques where I have to spin under someones arm to wrench into a wrist lock. We entered the semi-realistic bout with him poking at my stomach and finally me botching the attempt when Sifu struggled with me (I ended up holding the blade of the knife, ouch...). Then, we reversed the situation and I came at him. I knew that he was demonstrating the technique so I did not use any realistic power to struggle like he did with me.

I know that not injecting some realism into my struggle is a disservice to both Sifu and myself. But I also felt like there was little that he could do with that technique if I didn't want him to have the knife.

So now came the classic decision...

Do I struggle against this technique that I know I can ruin (yes, even if I didn't know it was coming) and make the Sifu feel like a ******* in front of the other students.

OR...

Should I go along with the technique in case others are more adept at that type of disarm so they can learn the technique, even though I feel it is useless....

[MasterKiller]

Tell your sifu after class how you feel about it, and if he values your opinion, he will examine the issue more closely. Don't call him out in class.

[Icewater]

Good advice. I always feel a little awkward challenging a Sifu, but they should be open to reason occasionally.

[Kymus]

When your Sifu is demonstrating something, do not resist, just go along with it, basically. Unless of course he tells you to resist... But at any rate, when a Sifu is demonstrating things, you do not want to resist or put a whole lot into it, because it will simply ruin the purpose of it: teaching and learning. Whenever I demonstrate techniques to my class, I always hold back also, and go slow. Sometimes I will perform it at full speed and likewise with my student, but mostly, it is a simple demonstration. Now when you go over this in pairs with your partner, then it is a good time to fiddle with resistance, speed, and power. If you are going over this after the demonstration with your Sifu, I would mention something about speed and power. Eventually, everyone in the class should know to add in these elements gradually when they go over it with eachother, not just if your Sifu says to do so. Of course, this is simply based upon my teaching and learning experience, so no offence if things don't go down like that in your kwoon.

[Knifefighter]

Disarming a knife can be the difference between life and death. If your instructor is showing a disarm technique that is unrealistic, students should not be suckered into having a false sense of security about being able to take a knife away.

If you feel your instructor cannot do the disarm, you should feel free to resist so the other students understand the limitations of the technique.

BTW, you were on the right track when you ended up holding the blade. Learn the right technique where this is concerned and your chances of getting cut are relatively small.

[Shooter]

what knifefighter said

[joedoe]

My teacher tells me if he wants me to slow it down, and it is only so that he can show the finer points of the technique to the class. Otherwise he expects us to go full speed and full force.

[Ray Pina]

All schools have a different culture. To be safe, go along with the teacher during the "teaching" phase, and then when you break down into line drills take the knife away from all your training partners.

Then again, this still doesn't mean the technique is no good. They are just learning it. Maybe you are better/bigger, too.

.....

Knife Fighter, are there any basic knife defense books you'de recommend. Something to just whet the appetite a bit?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If you feel your instructor cannot do the disarm, you should feel free to resist so the other students understand the limitations of the technique.


and the instructor should feel free to dump the student on his ass for being a disrespectful little cock monger.

i'm just saying there's a time and a place. times and places vary from class to class, but i don't think it would be polite to resist while a teacher was trying to show the class something in most places. after the technique has been taught is different.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
and the instructor should feel free to dump the student on his ass for being a disrespectful little cock monger.

i'm just saying there's a time and a place. times and places vary from class to class, but i don't think it would be polite to resist while a teacher was trying to show the class something in most places. after the technique has been taught is different. The instructor was resisting when the student was origianally attempting the technique. Nothing wrong with the student also resisting. Not to mention the fact that most instructors have no clue about knife defense and shouldn't be teaching it in the first place.

[Oso]

Not to mention the fact that most instructors have no clue about knife defense and shouldn't be teaching it in the first place.

indeed

[Oso]

Assuming that the instructor does know something about knife defense/knife fighting when should a student begin learning KSD in your typical kung fu/karate school?



My thought process went something like this:

You get a typical male in off the street. No previous training and of average size and strength. He spends his first six months or so learning to stand differently, breath differently and hopefully to effectively punch, kick and block. He also hopefully gets introduced to some sort of basic chin na/jujitsu locking and escaping from said locks and maybe even some groundwork. Over the next 1-2 years he gets better at all of these things but is by no means a master and probably not even really considered overly proficient given his 2 nights a week.

Where exactly do the knife defenses fit into this average schedule?

They don't.

IMO, KSD, is based on chin na (speaking from my mostly chinese based training). So, considering that the consequences of failing a knife disarm is drastically higher than that of failing to get a back lock on someone; knife defenses should only be taught to students who rarely fail at empty hand chin na locking.

once I got out on my own several years ago I took a good hard look at the knife D I had been taught and decided that I didn't want to be responsible for perpetuating techniques that 'looked good' and were 'stylistically' correct.

[Shaolinlueb]

i injected some of your girlfriends/wives with my realism. they couldnt handle it. :o :rolleyes: :p



jk

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Oso
Assuming that the instructor does know something about knife defense/knife fighting when should a student begin learning KSD in your typical kung fu/karate school? Knife defense work should be a separate class and could easily be taught from day one.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The instructor was resisting when the student was origianally attempting the technique. Nothing wrong with the student also resisting. Not to mention the fact that most instructors have no clue about knife defense and shouldn't be teaching it in the first place.

i guess that puts the situation in a different light, but from the original description i would still find it a little disrespectful. i mean if it were understood that everyone should resist a bit during a deomonstration that would be one thing, but if that were the case there wouldnt have been a thread.

again ... i dont find the act of resisting abnoxious, just the timing. there were plenty of things i questioned in class immediatley afterward, but i at least let him show the technique enough times for everyone to understand it before speaking up. the original post almost sounded like he felt a need to challange him, and if that's the case the teacher isn't much more than a training buddy. there's nothing wrong with training buddies, especially ones who are a lot better than you, but if you are going to the guy as a teacher i feel that you should show him the respect a teacher deserves. which sometimes involves keeping a lid on it until your called on.

[Oso]

KF, ok, I could see it as the focus of a separate class.