Does Wing Chun teach fighting quicker?

[YongChun]

There is some talk that Wing Chun was designed as an art to quickly teach fighting. It is stated that historically it was to teach fighting quicker than the other styles could. However I wonder which would be better:

1. A year of Wing Chun?
2. A year of Karate?
3. A year of Brazilian Jujitsu?
4. A year of Judo?
5. A year of Thai boxing?
6. A year of Western boxing?
7. A year of Escrima?

I would say these other arts would also argue that their methods produce fighters the quickest. What is the real evidence?

If Wing Chun is the shortcut and quick way to learn fighting then why do some clubs have so many levels or achievement and some programs that take more than 15 years? Normal proficiency is about 5 years in Karate. Army training is normally about two years.

I heard some of the early students of Yip Man learned for less than two years before they went out to challenge the masters of other styles. So perhaps they did attest to the original idea of the art. I have also heard that these people ate, drank and slept Wing Chun for 24 hours of the day. That is why some of those are called today’s masters. Yet even so, by today’s standards, none had matches against opponents who we would consider as particularly good.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- all things being equal (dedication, regular training, good instriction, good practice) wing chun should become effective in
18 months with decent chor ma and biu ma training.
I have never thought of wing chun as a short cut. Wing chun is for the long run- the more you put into it- the more you get oiut of it for a longer period of time.

Some of the others can develop faster depending on age, teaching, learning and body structure.

[Tom Kagan]

The military needs its fighters in 6 weeks to 6 months, not 2 years as you suggest.

A few score of millenia have taught all of the world's military that, in order to produce fighters that quickly, initial emphasis must be on group unity, heavy conditioning, and weapons. These lessons were learned ages ago.

Ving Tsun, an art much younger than the age old lessons learned and practiced by military arts, has a training progression which is almost completely inverted.

Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu was not developed in a vacuum or by really stupid people. So, I disagree with what you heard to be true. From my perspective, it should be apparent to a reasonable person that Ving Tsun does was not meant to teach fighting quickly and this was intentional in its origins.


A sufficiently motivated and coordinated Ving Tsun practitioner of average intelligence should be able to finish the progression in two or three years or so - if that pesky thing called life didn't keep getting in the way. ;)

[Knifefighter]

A year of escrima, since fighting with weapons is always more efficient than fighting without them.

[chisauking]

In my experience, Wing Chun isn't fast effective. You first have to aquire the ability to generate close-quarter power before you can truly fight the Wing Chun way -- that's the reason why so many so-called wing chun sparring dosn't resemble wing chun at all -- they haven't the ability to "fat lik" at close quarter. And it's also one of the main reasons for teaching Bil-gee last -- because until you have the ability to exert close quarter power, Bil-gee is but an empty form. Akin to a gun but without the bullets.

It's probably far quicker to learn to defend yourself and be "fast active" with Thai boxing or western boxing.

[SevenStar]

bjj
thai boxing
boxing
judo

[sihing]

Sounds to me like all of you are fast on your way to prove WC is nothing of what its supposed to be, LOL. Isn't this a Wing Chun forum? First you all put down the punching effectiveness of the art, then the kicks, the footwork, the ground game, health benifits and now low and behold you can't learn it quicker than most arts, Hmmmm. If this trend continues one has to assume most of you will eventually leave this forum and transcend to the BJJ/MMA one on the Deluxe forum over there, since as Joy pointed out WC does have nothing to offer right. Loyalty(not brainwashing) is a lost quality on this forum most definetly....The other stylist that observe this forum must bust a gut when they come on here.

James

[Vajramusti]

James- some of my posts were tongue in cheek.
Good wing chun will survive both this forum
and mma.

[SevenStar]

It may not be that so much as it is just being real about it. After a year of sport fighting, you have trained alot, drilled, been sparring, likely competed, etc. You will gain alot of experience at a quick rate. It's the nature of the arts.

[Vajramusti]

A year of street fighting with experienced guidance in the right contexts can teach better than sports fighting- but then there are legal and ethical problems and other risks with that. Experienced is the key word.

[hunt1]

Yes, if Wing Chun is taught with fighting in mind.

[Vajramusti]

Hunt 1.- with the right teacher and student-true

[captain]

both my first WC lesson and judo lesson taught me something of value.if you don't mind me saying so,some of you on here seem to have forgotten how scary wc is!
Russ

[Tydive]

Of all the arts I have studied I would say Kenpo was the one with the fastest "class to street" value... But then I was trained by Dr. Chapel and he could make anyone more effective. So, my view is that it is less about the art and more about the teacher/student relationship.

That said, some arts just take a long time to be effective (Aikido) while others provide value right out of the box (see YC's list). I think the reason some arts take so long to be effective is that they don't work unless you have a solid center and mobility. WC can be effective quickly simply because the principals don't require perfect form, only simple execution. As your skills develop you will be able to generate more power with greater control, but that does not mean that a novice will not be able to execute the form.

Tom,

Military training is to kill, usually with weapons. The basic hand to hand training that most grunts get is next to worthless. It's main goal is to give them confidence and a few basics, but the rifle is the weapon of choice for a reason.

[Gangsterfist]

Wing chun is about being effecient, and I do not think it is the fastest way to becoming a good fighter, and by fighter what do you mean? Street worthy? Or Ring fighting?

In ring fighting you are fighting against other trained fighters and conditioning is a big part of it. So you must work out, outside of your art and build other attributes as well. Not to mentions on a professional level a lot of times they train attributes that will help them most in their next bout. Professional ring fighting is scheduled in advance, they know who they are fighting and are coached to beat their opponet.

On the streets it could be anybody, with anything goes rules, because there are no rules. I have had a knife pulled on me and shoved near my face before, I handed the guy a wad a small bills out of my pocket and he ran off. Best fight move I could've done. I walked away unscathed.

Arts like BJJ off the bat have hands on training with live partners. Which is why its had some success and people tend to like it. Wing chun should be the same with sparring chi sao, drills etc.

Arts like taiji (i also do taiji) are harder to become a good fighter at. Maybe, its because taiji does not concern itself with basic things like punches and kicks. Its more about controlling the yin and yang energies. In the first short form there are not many straight forward attacks. In wing chun's first form there are plenty of straight forward attacks.

Perhaps its not the art, but the method of training. If you incorporated more sparring, basic punch and kick drills in the first year of taiji, and not so much on things like tui sao (push hands), maybe they could produce a better fighter in a shorter amount of time. Push hands holds a lot of wisdom to it, and it can be applied to combat, but its concepts are harder to pick up on than simple punching, blocking, and kicking.

FWIW, GM Ho Kam Ming taught the Macau military wing chun.

[KFD]

IMO, it depends on your focus.

my sifu told me that if someone came through his door and told him he wanted to be able to win fights, he would put them through a SLT training. drill proper structure, touch, and technique but he would never be able to train another fighter with the knowledge he has. it would all be body knowledge, his body would know all the structures and spaces to move, it would be reflex, but it's not something he comprehends, he knows what to do without knowing why. this is the method intended to be used towards training soldiers to be proficient fighters in a short time.

[reneritchie]

To quote Burnsypoo, Huen Lap.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Not to mentions on a professional level a lot of times they train attributes that will help them most in their next bout. Professional ring fighting is scheduled in advance, they know who they are fighting and are coached to beat their opponet.

On the streets it could be anybody, with anything goes rules, because there are no rules.

The only difference that makes is in fighting that specific oppnent. The overall training is the same. General attributes - strength, stamina, etc. are byproducts of normal boxing training.

Arts like BJJ off the bat have hands on training with live partners. Which is why its had some success and people tend to like it. Wing chun should be the same with sparring chi sao, drills etc.

should be? why isn't it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KFD
IMO, it depends on your focus.

but why should that depend on the individual? instilling fighting ability should be a focus of the school as well as the individual.

my sifu told me that if someone came through his door and told him he wanted to be able to win fights, he would put them through a SLT training. drill proper structure, touch, and technique but he would never be able to train another fighter with the knowledge he has. it would all be body knowledge, his body would know all the structures and spaces to move, it would be reflex, but it's not something he comprehends, he knows what to do without knowing why. this is the method intended to be used towards training soldiers to be proficient fighters in a short time.

bingo. two common taiji principles - yielding and borrowing are found in thai boxing, bjj and judo, however these principles aren't named, merely taught. definitions of different energies - a judoka doesn't know what peng is, but they use it in several throws. neither a bjj guy nor a judoka know what zang is, but they use it all the time. Zuo, Hua, Di....we use all of those. we share the same principle, but haven't gone to the depth of defining it.

[Tom Kagan]

Tydive,

We agree. Head-to-head one-on-one hand-to-hand close quarter combat (whether it is armed or unarmed) is a very tiny portion of what the military needs. But, even if one restricts their view of is necessary for what a fighter needs quickly to that very small segment, Ving Tsun, as a learning progression, does not fit that bill. Of course, nothing stops a knowledgable practitioner from using their Ving Tsun to create a program which could fit, however.

[By the way, the intent of military training is not to kill, but to neutralize. Some may consider that an amusing and/or ridiculus distinction of semantics, but it does affect training and tactics in more than a few cases.]

sihing,

Producing a fighter quickly has its own set of tradeoffs/drawbacks. For me to suggest that Ving Tsun was not designed to produce fighters quickly - whether they are needed to overthrow the Qing or not - is not in any way, shape, or form meant to be commentary on its ultimate effectiveness in shaping a practitioner's ultimate ability.

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

Sounds to me like all of you are fast on your way to prove WC is nothing of what its supposed to be, LOL.

**Starting with a notion of "what it (WCK) is supposed to be" is part of the problem IMO -- because much of that is myth, nonsense, etc. It's the wrong plaace to start.

Isn't this a Wing Chun forum? First you all put down the punching effectiveness of the art, then the kicks, the footwork,

**The "effectiveness" doesn't come from the "art" but from the person practicing the method.

the ground game,

**WCK doesn't have a "ground game". Anyone who believes otherwise can step up and prove it easily enough.

health benifits

**Depends on how you train.

and now low and behold you can't learn it quicker than most arts, Hmmmm.

**It depends on what you mean by "learn it." You can "learn" the forms, drills, kuit relatively quickly if by "learn" you mean retain the information. Just like one can "learn" the tools of boxing. Becoming skillful, transforming the info into knowledge, developing the attributes, etc. -- in other words, being able to fight well with the method depends on how one trains. One can practice WCK their entire life and never significantly increase their fighting ability.

If this trend continues one has to assume most of you will eventually leave this forum and transcend to the BJJ/MMA one on the Deluxe forum over there, since as Joy pointed out WC does have nothing to offer right. Loyalty(not brainwashing) is a lost quality on this forum most definetly....The other stylist that observe this forum must bust a gut when they come on here.

**"Loyalty" is more of the problem (I can hear Tammy Wynette sing "stand by your man . . . "). The interesting thing about those "other forums" -- the one's populated by fighters -- is that "loyalty" is never an issue, and for good reason.

Regards,

Terence

[reneritchie]

**"Loyalty" is more of the problem (I can hear Tammy Wynette sing "stand by your man . . . "). The interesting thing about those "other forums" -- the one's populated by fighters -- is that "loyalty" is never an issue, and for good reason.

Yeah, it is. Carlson Sr. vs BTT is a prime example of that, but now that the MMA game is getting more professional, and fighters are going where they can get the best deal, it will be forced to evolve.



Loyalty(not brainwashing) is a lost quality on this forum most definetly....The other stylist that observe this forum must bust a gut when they come on here.

I don't understand what a 'stylist' is. Can you only ever drive one kind of car? Drink one kind of beverage? It's rediculous. My first art was Judo. I did 3 or 4 others before doing WCK, and only did that because it was the best teacher I could find. Go with what improves you, not with some weido cult bondage shaw bros. shtick.

[YongChun]

Who wants to join my cult?

Ray

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YongChun
Who wants to join my cult?
It depends. Does it involve drinking kool-aid?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
To quote Burnsypoo, Huen Lap. Rene,
Why do you say that? The question seems to have some merit. Although I am wondering why we are concerned about results after one year, as opposed to the long term.

Besides,....... why quote Burnsypoo? :p ;)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Matrix
It depends. Does it involve drinking kool-aid?

It doesn't have a purpose yet because there are no members yet. As soon as it has members, then we can decide on a purpose. But I am an experienced kool-aid drinker. We won't kill ourselves though.

[PaulH]

The art of living deliberately is the art of examining this vast storehouse of beliefs, dropping the out-moded ones, consciously choosing those that serve your goals, and carefully crafting new ones in greatest alignment with your desires.
- Richard Bishop

You're not into any cult, Ray. You and others are doing what is best for you and no one else. =)

[YongChun]

I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.
Groucho Marx