Hi Level Chinese Martial Art?

[YongChun]

Some qualities in high level Chinese martial arts cannot be developed through kickboxing or BJJ:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html
Body Postures:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/liujingrubook.html

Of course I know that Wing Chun has all those things too even though I have no idea what he is talking about.

Note the knee in Wing chun style stance in the drawing:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/bapanzhangbook.html

About training the stance: I have heard from Patrick Chow (Yip Man student) about similar training of some Wing Chun people in the old days.
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/diguoyong.html
MR. DI: Exactly because he was good at another art! His teacher had him to stand for three years and a half and did not teach him anything else during that time. He told him to stand for so long to "erase" Long Fist Boxing from his body. My teacher would probably have to stand for longer if Wu Zizhen (head of Si Min Boxing Society, grand-disciple of Geng Jishan) did not ask Liu Huapu to teach Zhao Zhong. At that time learning martial arts was different than now - when teacher told you to stand, you just had to stand and could not ask the teacher to teach you some more movements. Students dare not to ask. However once Liu Huapu started to teach Xingyiquan movements to Zhao Zhong, it took only half a year for Zhao to learn the complete system. Zhao Zhong told us that during winter they were practicing wearing Mian'ao (cotton-padded jackets). Because of Xingyi requirement that elbows should be kept close to the body, after some time the cotton padding was coming out because constant rubbing of sleeves against the body wore off the outside fabric. In the summer while practicing San Ti Shi the ground around was wet with their sweat.

About Hsing I: since we discussed that on this forum and also because Gary Lam talks about five element theory:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/diguoyongBIS.html

[SPJ]

Cool post.

Good links.

:)

[PaulH]

Hi Ray,

Just want to comment that the 5 elements that you provided in the link has no resemblance to Gary's 5E. Gary uses the 5E concept to help the students to understand and to organize the major combat attributes mostly in their study field of WC strategy and relationship of class materials like power/footwork(Metal), position (Earth), speed (Fire), timing (Wood), and adaptability (Water). It is not the 5E of TCM. It is helpful for some nice students like me, but more of a extra "filter" of the raw truth for the real Ernie! =)

[Ernie]

http://cranesproduction.com/product_info.php?products_id=46


Gary is real big into this stuff , never rubbed off on me , but some people really like it




this is more my cup of tea
http://cranesproduction.com/product_info.php?products_id=45

good links and post Ray

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

"Some qualities in high level Chinese martial arts cannot be developed through kickboxing or BJJ. . . . "

**OK, but that begs the question of whether those "qualities" actually enhance our fighting abilities. That's easy enough to determine.

"About Hsing I: since we discussed that on this forum and also because Gary Lam talks about five element theory . . . "

And Ernie responded:

Gary is real big into this stuff , never rubbed off on me , but some people really like it

**That illustrates a good point -- that there are often different (many?) ways to try to explain or describe something. The old chinese cosmological model of chi, 5 elements, yin/yang, etc. is one way. In my view, this "cosmology" is outdated, unnecessary, and limiting. Some people do like this stuff because they grew up with it and feel more comfortable with that view (like Gary); while others like it because it is "exotic", lends itself to role-playing, and suggests that skill in WCK depends on some arcane "knowledge".

Regards,

Terence

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
YongChun wrote:

"Some qualities in high level Chinese martial arts cannot be developed through kickboxing or BJJ. . . . "

**OK, but that begs the question of whether those "qualities" actually enhance our fighting abilities. That's easy enough to determine.




Even Mas Oyama went learning Yee Chuan, and evolve Kyokushin with the Yee Chuan components. What is the credential of Kyokushin being a fighting art? What is the Credential of Mas Oyama produces great fighters?

How those Advance Level Chinese Martial Art perform is not a question. the Question is do one really master them?
Or do one judge something one has never seen and know for real what it is? which is always a mistake lots of us commint, Judging without really knowing.

[reneritchie]

It all comes down to what the individual can do. The rest it all BS. Don't matter about any famous ancestor, or supra high level ego-fulfilling label hype, or this art versus that art. What can the individual accomplish. That's it.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by reneritchie
It all comes down to what the individual can do. The rest it all BS. Don't matter about any famous ancestor, or supra high level ego-fulfilling label hype, or this art versus that art. What can the individual accomplish. That's it.


Rene has traced it back to the one true source [ the individual ]

it makes things easy when you know what your working with :)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by reneritchie
It all comes down to what the individual can do. The rest it all BS. Don't matter about any famous ancestor, or supra high level ego-fulfilling label hype, or this art versus that art. What can the individual accomplish. That's it.

I have no idea what people like Emin Boztepe, Gary Lam, Kenneth Chung, William Cheung, Jessie Glover etc. can really do in a real fight. They haven't proved themselves in a ring against top competition. Yet I tend to listen to the advice these guys have for how to train since whatever they do seems to be better than what I do. So I tend not to consider what these guys say as BS

[Vajramusti]

Ray-
FWIW- commenting on your post- being in the ring and being in a real fight (in some places) are not the same thing.
In the ring to some extent people are matched on perceived equal levels in weight, experience. record etc.

In a real fight you never know what you will get-- from the bad to the scary...no such thing as average. You can look good in one fight and be screwed up in the next.

The case- not too long ago- a top flight MT guy went after someone and got shot- dead...the whole event was the fight- not the MT record.


Also good boxers with some notable exceptions(El Torito of San Antonio) dont get into real fights with good reason--- no money in it. Not enough greenbacks for top flight boxers in UFC like events either.

[Ernie]

RAY-
I have no idea what people like Emin Boztepe, Gary Lam, Kenneth Chung, William Cheung, Jessie Glover etc. can really do in a real fight. They haven't proved themselves in a ring


AHHH but gary has and trained champion ring fighters

doesn't mean i'm a great fighter ,

but i do listen to his advice :)

scroll down http://garylamwingchun.com/photos_hk.html

[canglong]

originally posted by yellowpikachu
How those Advance Level Chinese Martial Art perform is not a question. the Question is do one really master them?Or do one judge something one has never seen and know for real what it is? which is always a mistake lots of us commint, Judging without really knowing. Well one thing we all really know is that your experience with Chi Sim Weng Chun left you flat on your @ss after 3 moves and all you have to say about that is
originally posted by yellowpikachu
Then, as in the story,
It doesnt make sense that ChiSim created Wing Chun kuen which was created by his School Sister Ng Mui. They have different type of arts as the story of shao Lin describe. So your experience seems to only have lead to animosity and denial.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by canglong
So your experience seems to only have lead to animosity and denial.

To know people is different from knowing the history of Wing/Weng Chun. We need to have an ability to sense and know the depths of feeling and distinguish traits of character. People must be studied as deeply as books.:cool:

[reneritchie]

I have no idea what people like Emin Boztepe, Gary Lam, Kenneth Chung, William Cheung, Jessie Glover etc. can really do in a real fight. They haven't proved themselves in a ring against top competition. Yet I tend to listen to the advice these guys have for how to train since whatever they do seems to be better than what I do. So I tend not to consider what these guys say as BS

I didn't say anything about real fights or rings. And I didn't say anything about other people either. That was the point. What can the individual in question accomplish. Not some famous teacher or legendary whoever. Just us. What can we do?

[SevenStar]

I haven't even read this post yet, but I will after posting what I'm about to say... It sickens me everytime I hear someone talk about "high level" martial arts...IMO, those do not exist. There is no high level or low level, only those who can use their skill and those who can't.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

:cool:

[Keng Geng]

I think I'd fall off the horse if I were to use that.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
Some qualities in high level Chinese martial arts cannot be developed through kickboxing or BJJ:


If you don't have an appreciation of both high level AND basic level martial arts then you aren't a good martial artist.

If you understand the skill being presented and how it's applied in fights, there will be higher and lower levels of technique. Some techniques ARE going to be more complicated and harder to do. Some will require more atheleticism or exact timing and fine coordination. In every endeavour, it's the same.

Chinese martial arts do have unique skills that you will only learn from masters but there's also a lot of useless garbage. Those masters may not be the greatest at all aspects of fighting but they will have their specialties where they are very good.

It's just a matter of examining critically what skills they have and finding something that's worth learning. Kickboxing has it's higher levels also. Technical fighters may not have perfect records because they can be beaten by tougher guys (Ernesto Hoost has lost to Bob Sapp multiple times and he is far more skilled) but they still have recognizable ART.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I haven't even read this post yet, but I will after posting what I'm about to say... It sickens me everytime I hear someone talk about "high level" martial arts...IMO, those do not exist. There is no high level or low level, only those who can use their skill and those who can't.

To me it is just something simple. By analogy Mozart and Beethoven would be high level musicians. Gary Kasparov and Karpov would be high level Chess players. Jimi Henrix would have been a high level guitar player for example. It's a relative thing. I think some martial artists are also in this category. In any field there are people who really excel. So that's about it. Michael Jordon would be the basketball equivalent as compared to a good college basketball player. Albert Einstein is the high level master in physics. Gauss would be it for mathematics as well as Euler and Fermat and many others. Today it is Andrew Wiles in mathematics. That's my meaning for high level master anyway. In boxing I give Mohammed Ali the title for his weight category anyway. In Aikido it's the founder of Aikido. In Tai Chi, maybe Yang Cheng Fu.

I think a kickboxing champion can't remain that way as he ages so there must be some other attributes that can remain that we can call mastery of something. We could probably argue all day long about who is and who isn't a master. By Terences definition, I don't think there is any Wing Chun master except maybe Gary Lam who fought the Thais and won and maybe Emin Boztepe who probably can fight as well in the ring.

[SevenStar]

"I can't say what branch it was as nobody really paid any attention to names at that time."


" I learnt from my father and what he taught was not routines but basics of Shaolin boxing, mainly stretching and kicking."


"I emphasize Bagua basics a lot. They are very important and if the student does not practice them correctly, according to my requirements, then it is like throwing all the things I teach away. It is not that I'm conservative but the problem is that many students do not study hard and never get satisfactory level of basic skills. Learning techniques and routines is without any value if the basics are not good."


These are things he mentions in the article. If sounds like it may be along the lines of what we do as well...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun

I think a kickboxing champion can't remain that way as he ages so there must be some other attributes that can remain that we can call mastery of something. We could probably argue all day long about who is and who isn't a master. By Terences definition, I don't think there is any Wing Chun master except maybe Gary Lam who fought the Thais and won and maybe Emin Boztepe who probably can fight as well in the ring.

you're talking about competition again...naturally a fighter can't remain champ as they age. if you put ma chuanxu into a ring at his old age, he'd get massacred. Even as he stated - "When I was in my thirties I was still able to pass below a wooden bench from its one side to the other using Pu Bu very quickly. The bench was so low that my chest had to touch the floor during the movement..."

that sounds to me like he's saying even though he could do this in his thirties, he can't now. He's aging, that's what happens. because he can no longer fight in a ring doesn't mean much.

[anerlich]

Some qualities in high level Chinese martial arts cannot be developed through kickboxing or BJJ:

Possibly. OTOH:

It would be argued by many, with some truth, that some qualities in INTERMEDIATE level kickboxing or BJJ are very often not developed via TCMA.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
Possibly. OTOH:

It would be argued by many, with some truth, that some qualities in INTERMEDIATE level kickboxing or BJJ are very often not developed via TCMA.

That's true too. Ray

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

I have no idea what people like Emin Boztepe, Gary Lam, Kenneth Chung, William Cheung, Jessie Glover etc. can really do in a real fight. They haven't proved themselves in a ring against top competition. Yet I tend to listen to the advice these guys have for how to train since whatever they do seems to be better than what I do. So I tend not to consider what these guys say as BS

**You can "listen" to everyone, including folks you consider "good", but that doesn't mean what they say is entirely "correct", that it is "correct" for you or for me (though it may be for them) or that it is wrong. The issue is whether it is *useful* to us in producing results. If it doesn't help us, the individual, produce results (increase our ability to fight), then it was useless. All the info, regardless of where it came from, has to be tested for usefulness -- whether it increases our fighting performance. This is Yip Man's "go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you." He didn't say, "Trust me, I'm Yip Man, I know what I'm talking about."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RR wrote:

I didn't say anything about real fights or rings. And I didn't say anything about other people either. That was the point. What can the individual in question accomplish. Not some famous teacher or legendary whoever. Just us. What can we do?

**Exactly right. "What can we do?" -- individual results.

Regards,

Terence

[Vajramusti]

Ray- these Thai stories keep circulating. In the first Thai visit
to HK against whoever faced them- the Thais one.
Second visit was even.

After that- question of who faced whom, when where and how.
Buddy Wu in Cleveland would know---one of his students could post back- if he gets answers.
In a competition n Singapore several years ago wc guys defeated the mt guys. So- there are lots of different kinds of stories.
In sporting events as well- the individual's abilities make a difference-not just the label of a style.
I have seen Benny the Jet defeat a top level MT guy ina televised match- basically hands versus feet.

I have been to Thailand seen Thai training and several big stadium matches. They are very good at their game. Better than a lot of US MT.No point in
making a brief on their limtations here. They have theirs.

But a few years ago- a first rate MT came to compete in Phoenix- Fairtex was here at the time. Thai TV gave a live broadcast cast back to Thailand. They won every match-their opponents were karatekas, kenpo and kickboxers of various kinds. Some knees will not be the same again.

[canglong]

originally posted by YongChun
I think a kickboxing champion can't remain that way as he ages so there must be some other attributes that can remain that we can call mastery of something. Joy it seems you missed the real point of YongChun's post.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Vajramusti

In the ring to some extent people are matched on perceived equal levels in weight, experience. record etc.But you can quickly see who has real skill and who doesn't, regardless of how closely the opponents are matched.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
In a real fight you never know what you will get-- from the bad to the scary...no such thing as average. You can look good in one fight and be screwed up in the next.

The case- not too long ago- a top flight MT guy went after someone and got shot- dead...the whole event was the fight- not the MT record. A good case for cross-training and learning how to deal with weapons.

[Nick Forrer]

'A good case for cross-training and learning how to deal with weapons.'


KF/Dale Franks,

I usually agree with a lot of what you post (and the socratic manner in which its posted) but........unarmed defence against guns?
Unless someone can dodge bullets matrix style i have to say - its highly improbable. If someone doesnt shoot you straight off (indicating murder isnt their immediate priority) - okay you might be able to talk/beg your way out or run away. But if a gun is drawn with immediate intent to kill, 9 times out of ten your number is surely up.