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edward
10-09-2004, 06:29 AM
So hopefully you'll use some of this advice to help with chi sao... I actually have some video to go along with the tips, but i've just been to lazy to put it
together....

Anyway here goes, and these are tips to help improve your chi sao, along with tips and corrections that are commonly made during your
training.

#1) Practice the roll - All to often, people negelct chi sao roll,
and I mean the details to doing a good roll are key. Most of the
time, people roll for about 1 to 2 minutes and next thing you know
hands are flying and attacking back and forth. But, I'll tell you
this from experience, all good attacks all good blocks, originate
from having a good roll. Invest your time in doing the roll
correctly, more so,than in just attacking and defending.

Why?

The roll encompasses the main ideas that you need to work on in
order to improve your blocking and attacking.

a) Cutting edge
b) send back
c) equalize/neutralize

While there is more to this, i'll generalize stuff otherwise I'll be
writting on these topics forever. For those new to the list i 'll
give general explanations to each one and how it relates to the roll.

a) cutting edge - Simple explanation is dealing with the structure.
Think of it in this way, cutting edge is the proper way to hold your
knife in order for objects to cut into it. Imagine a steak, you
want to cut it right, you have to hold the blade the correct way,
same thing with your tan, bong and fok. Knowing the right angle or
structure is essential. Making the correct adjustments with
different people is what you do with the roll, each time you roll,
your working on making the cutting edge graze your opponents roll as
well

b) send back - Simply deals with the power. When you properly roll,
each time, regardless of whether your doing inside gate, outside
gate or regular chi sao, the final motion of each roll, should give
you a sense of security. Almost as if your forming a wall. The
wall is created by you, in which incoming force is sent back to the
opponent who you are rolling with. The key is to understand how
much your wall can handle. Since everyone's wall has different
structures, some which can handle more then others. But, when you
pracitce your roll, you are working on creating a wall and at the
same time making sure your not fighting against the force. In other
words, when your wall is pushed beyond your structural limitations,
you must make adjustments in dealing with the oncoming force.

c) equalize/neutralize - General and simple explanation, catch and
control. In other words, regardless of the force that comes in
whether its as soft as a butterfly or as strong as a rhino, you need
to know how to meet the oncoming force and then be able to control
it. Frankly, e/n is probably the most difficult of the 3, but
obviously others will have varying opinoins.

Now all 3 are important in dealing with the concept of sticky hands,
and all 3 ideas are found witin the roll.

I've always stressed to my students, spend more time with your
roll. If your roll isn't good, i guarantee you your attacks and
blocks will be reflective of your sticky hand roll.

Common mistakes to look out for

#1) uneven arms - this is most common, but also most difficult to
catch. Stick hands functions as a drilling motion, in order for
that drill to hit the point correctly both sides should be even.
While simple in concept, diffcult to do.

#2) lousy ygkym - its difficult to keep track of evenrything when
you roll, but your hands are based off your foundation. All to
often the stance is neglected and is quite sloppy. If you roll for
a coulpe of minutes double check to see if your comfortable in your
ygkym

#3) Improper motions of tan, bong, fok - Most commmon mistake i see
with fok sau, is having a tight wrist, thus its like chocking up on
the top of the bat instead of the bottom of the handle. For bong
sau, the motion should cut at an angle instead of coming forward
towards the opponent. If you do the cutting motion correctly on the
bong sau, you'll go forward at and angle, instead of going forward
by pushing straight. As for the tan, most common problem is see, is
instead of coming from the bong to tan stragiht, most people have
the tan sau coming to the opponent rising up. Thus, the force is
going in the wrong direction.

Tips to dealing with commomn mistakes.

#1) uneven arms - Well, best thing to do is roll with your
teacher. If your teacher knows what he's doing, you'll start to get
a sense of what even is. Sorta like riding wtih training wheels.
After rolling with him, roll with someone else ... make adjustments,
and then once again get back on the training wheels to get the right
feeling. This process is long and tedious but if your teacher is
cool, he'll spend the time trying to help you learn what even is.

Also, you can practice, inside, outside and regular chi sao, without
a partner. You can work on the motions and use the mirror to help
you get a sense of eveness.

#2)There are allot of drills in order to check your stance, but in
the beginning it might be difficult to keep track of everything.
Best thing is if you roll for about 2 to 3 minutes, take the time to
readjust your stance and see if your solid. Other things like
pracitng the form are helpful as well. But, think of it like
driving the car, you always have to adjust your steering wheel
otherwise the car won't travel perfectly straight. Just like when
you roll your contastnaly adjusting

#3) Motions can be improved by single man techinque, form and no
partner chi sao motion... its key that you practice the motions by
yourself correctly and then use your partner to deal with the
adjustments. Practicing without the partner does in fact help you,
i don't suggest you use any kind of rings for chi sao practice since
they help you develop the wrong sticky hand motions.

Okay, that's it for now, I'll be adding more tips to this and other
things in the future.. Any questions just ask

Vajramusti
10-09-2004, 07:11 AM
Hi ed- good stuff---
and getting the focus back on important wing chun details.

old jong
10-09-2004, 07:30 AM
Hey Ed!
You speak the truth!...
BTW,I saw and enjoyed your "unleashed" DVD!...It's full of great stuff!...Keep on with the good Wing Chun work! :cool:

sihing
10-10-2004, 07:19 AM
Good post Edward. Just a add on, rolling improves the forward intention in the practiconer which is also vital to combat. We practice a slow roll in the double arm chi-sao under my Sifu. To us forward intention is the first and most important concept to be learned by chi-sao. With proper structure and intent it is very hard to get hit.

James

kj
10-10-2004, 08:40 AM
Thoughtful tips, Ed, and nice attention to detail. Looking forward to more. If you do end up putting the accompanying video together, give us a heads up.

I too find that impatience with the seemingly "simple" practice of luk sau is a common mistake. The different elements you described are all germane to developing and honing critical awareness, sensitivity and timing skills.

Without being present, "feeling" and knowing the full physical context, there is always a risk in being too dogmatic. Nonetheless, your list includes important things to observe and experiment with.

If I were to emphasize any one of those tips over the others it would be the stance. I think we will agree that a poor foundation will result in all kinds of problems. Conversely, attention to stance work improve a great many things, often quite dramatically.

Here is one idea that seems to help some of our folks a lot. It is to keep the forearm, wrist and hand "soft" and focus on controlling movement and positioning of the arm mainly via one's elbow. The elbow can also be thought of as the "wall" you mentioned. This helps toward correcting a variety of errors such as imprecision in positioning and forces, finding and controlling the other person's center, maintaining the "stickiness" throughout the roll, and some efficiency issues relating to arm position and path of movement.

Occasionally someone will really struggle in this area. One trick that sometimes helps is to ask them to imagine for a short time their arms end at the elbows, with no forearms. This can help the person to get the hang of utilizing the elbows and stance more, and to rely less on forearm strength. Over time and through practice, the arms begin to serve almost as antennae of a sort, enhancing their roles for offense, defense, and control.

I don't presume to know if these ideas would be consistent with your approach. Naturally we will find some differences in the finer details of our practice, though difficult to discern all of them in dialogs such as these. In my experience integrity of approach is generally more critical than agreeing on every individual detail.

Nicely done and kudos on leading by example in offering technical discussion on Wing Chun.

Regards,
- kj

mossman
10-10-2004, 10:50 AM
Can we discuss the aspect of getting use to getting hit in chi sau?

Redd
10-10-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by mossman
Can we discuss the aspect of getting use to getting hit in chi sau?

The floor is yours.

mossman
10-10-2004, 12:29 PM
Ok. How do you get use to getting hit in chi sao? lol

Vajramusti
10-10-2004, 12:45 PM
Mossman- what is your point. Ed posted the possible start of a technical wing chun discussion (I wouldn't:-I'd rather wait for the popcorn and the virtual reality shows suggested on another thread)- why not discuss the details?Used to getting hit?
Depends on who when where and how.

Had a friend once-gone(in Oklahoma) to happy hunting grounds now.
He was used to getting hit- pro boxer- fought Floyd Patterson 3 times- he got used to getting hit- he fought many fights- probably around 80 pro fights alone- he got used to getting hit a lot.
Nice guy- nicer than the Sylvester Stallone character.I don't envy him.

Chi sao when done well develops great control, knowledge of the openings and using them without permanently damaging your partner. Folks without control sometimes try hitting without control-they usually regret it when they deal with someone who is good..

There are plenty of ways to test whether you have the goods-
xxxxchat on forum lists is not one of them.

Chi sao development is progressive- no instant enlightment---
eye control. blinking control, hit when you should control, not hitting when you are open control, responding when you are under fire control, footwork control, attack control, defense control, spontaneous combinations control, stability and mobility control, ground control, self control, control of the other person, engaging, disengaging controls, throwing controls, breaking controls, calm self defense under fire... its a whole development process- NOT A DRILL.

old jong
10-10-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by mossman
Ok. How do you get use to getting hit in chi sao? lol

Just stop blocking...

couch
10-10-2004, 02:44 PM
Maybe you could explain a bit better about what you are experiencing when you are Chi Saoing. Are some of the seniors hitting you too hard? Is the hitting making you loose focus of what is going on? Please elaborate.

My Sifu and Seniors tap me pretty good to let me know that I've got an opening or that they hit me. I feel this prepares me a little better for the "if I get hit on the street" senario. It, by no means susbstitutes it...just forces me to concentrate on the task at hand.

Without knowing exactly what is going through your head, my best answer is:

Just keep getting hit and keep rolling and blocking, etc, etc. Just like Old Jong said. The best way to feel better about being hit is to get hit. It takes practise, just like anything else.

Soon enough, you'll be able to take a hit, be in an unfavorable position and come back from it.

Sincerely,
Couch

edward
10-10-2004, 03:22 PM
Yes, there is in fact forward motion. However, most common mistakes regarding this, is either forcing the forward motion or not having enough.

The general rule of thumbs, if you do the PROPER motion of tan, bong and fok, in your roll, that motion alone will have your forward intent.

For example, in the posting above, I spoke about equalizing and neutralizing during chi sao. This is an important concept, of knowing to give just as much as you get. Let's say for example, your opponent rolls and gives you 2lbs of pressure, but you force the forwad motion so that your using 5lbs to deal with his 2lb. You then lose an important concept within the rolling motion.

edward
10-10-2004, 03:38 PM
KJ your are correct in the mechnical and mundane part of rolling. All to often, rolling becomes repetive and the importance of the drill is lost.

There is allot to concentrate on rolling, and trying to work on everything in the beginning can be too much for the beginnger. So often, I tell people concentrate on 1 or 2 things that you believe needs to be worked on.

Common mistake, rolling without a slight pause. When you roll without doing so, you don't distinguish the completion of your roll, whether thats, tan and fok, or bong and fok, etc, etc.... THe slight pause also helps you to learn the timing in motions.

As for stance emphasis, this is also key, but my tips were designed mainly to talk about hand motions. As we know, stance does in fact play a major roll. Everything you do with the hands are all dependant on your stance. Lousy stance, means usually use of muscle in the roll.

there are also different kinds of rolls you can do to develop certain things. Light rolling, helps in correctly doing the motion first. Heavy rolling helps with developing elbow power. Regular rolling is the combination of both.

As for tips you mentioned, yes. Often, other problems with the roll is empahsis on the wrist instead of the elbow. Think of it this way, imagine holding your baseball bat.. Do you hold it at the handle to hit, or towards the edge of the bat. All to often, most people hold it at the edge of the bat, at the point of contact. The best way to cure this common mistake. Is SINKING of the elbows. Be aware of the point on the wrist, but control the wrist from the elbow, not the wrist.

thanks again, and maybe i'll get off my lazy and post video along with the comments.

edward
10-10-2004, 06:45 PM
This is a long time going debate, to hit or not to hit, when it comes to chi sao. This is my explanation regarding it, and i can speak from both sides, since i've walked both streets before.

Personally, if you want to hit, then do so in sparring, not in chi sao. Chi sao is for development.

To me, skillfull application in chi sao, you go full force, but when your about to hit, you stop on a dime. No contact, no tapping, just stop 1/2 and inch to the point of contact... That's skill.

I'll tell you this... skill-less teachers, b.s. their students, telling them you should just whack each other as hard as possible. And, i've seen this first hand, teacher beats on student... student in awe from the beating... and the idea, no pain no gain..... To me that's b.s... your developing skill, when you hit each other like that during chi sao... the student develops terrible habits, like being tense, jerky movements from fear of getting hit, and massages the teachers already inflated ego.

Like i said, if you want to hit each other, then spar, chi sao is the time to learn and develop good habits, not bad.

old jong
10-12-2004, 03:44 PM
I couldn't agree more!