lap sau?

[onesl1fox]

when where and why do you use the lap sau ?

wing chun is NOT easy.

[whippinghand]

... when receiving your opponent's intention.

There you go... 3 more words for ya. I don't know how much more elaborate I can get... I have a headache...

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 08-15-01 at 07:50 PM.]

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 08-15-01 at 07:51 PM.]

[Sihing73]

Hello,

WH has provided another answer which does not actually tell you anything :(

I will give you a couple of brief ideas and hopefully get a chance to go into greater detail a bit later when time permits. Maybe this will even get others to post as well.

You can use Lop after performing a Bong Sau. This can be done in order to change your angle and attack from the outside, or inside as well. For example; you Bong with your right hand your opponents left punch. Using your left hand you Lop his punch and convert the Bong into and attack. Conversly you can do a cross Bong using a right Bong to his right punch, a bit more dangerous but doable, in this case you can convert the Bong to a Lop and change your angle to attack from the outside. BTW before WH says how dangerous this is this is an application which is found within the Wooden Dummy, unless I have been misled in that form too :p

You are not limited to using Lop from Bong or in conjunction with Bong. In some cases you may wish to establish a bridge with one hand and use this point of contact to Lop adn draw the opponent in.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head. I hope it gives you an idea of where to go with this.

Peace,

Dave

[Sharky]

good answer sihing73. one thing i used to drill (and prety much every wc school ever) was intercepting with bong, then lap, then chop (fat sau), while pulling the opponent into the fat sau with the lap sau'ing hand.

i find bong sau very hard to use in real application - this is due to the need of more drilling before i could consider using this. anyways lap can really be used any time when you have contact with the opponents arm/wrist. Experiment with it - throw in lap saus to see when it is most effective yourself!

Thanks, and peace

Edd

My anus is superior™

[hunt1]

intersting question.the answer depends on your depth of understanding of wc principals.lop is used continually.by that i mean you always want to keep your opponant off balance by utilizing multipal energies at the same time.Lop is the simplest method of utilizing pulling energy.a punch is an example of pushing energy(this is meant to be a very basic explanation).If you lop and punch, your opponant moves is 2 opposite directions at the same time.what this means is that the non attacking hand should always be lopping or pak/gum/jut.tok etc.this is one way to keep continous control over the opponants center of gravity.

[JiuKaiMan]

one,
I have found lop sau to be a somewhat inneffective tool in a real fight scenario.
In the kwoon, where your opponent holds his arm
out for you, sure they are effective.
In real life, at least the fights I have been in,
people withdraw their fists very, very fast and this makes a lop sau near impossible. Especially if the person has any boxing experience. In boxing you chamber your fist back as quick as you strike with it.
So my answer would be,
You use lop sau in the kwoon and not on the street.

There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks.........

[whippinghand]

... what's the point of doing in the school? for scrubbing floors?

[whippinghand]

that's exactly what I said.

[EmptyCup]

I agree with JiuKaiMan...using the bong lap i chi sau is one thing but in a fight it is near impossible to pull off.

Most of what we do in the kwoon can't be used on the street anyways Whipping Hand...

[whippinghand]

lap sau we're talking about....

[hunt1]

sorry to burst a bubble but if you cant use a lop in a fight then you dont understand how to use lop period.If you understand energy concepts then lop is easy.You do not lop when an arm is retracting.you use pushing energy and follow the retraction.lop is used as the energy is still going forward.Do you even understand what the bong lop drill is teaching.Most dont.I have trained with 3 professional boxers of different weight classes and i can tell you lop works just fine.in fact they hate it.

[EmptyCup]

I know lap works...I was referring to the bong-lap which is a very dangerous and inefficient manoeuvre...

I use lap sau both inside and outside the arm, but in the case of the bong-lap, I don't see why one wouldn't use a biu or tan instead

I actually mean more about the bong than the lap itself...sorry about the confusion. I just don't think too highly of the bong's structure...I think it is dangerous because the angle of the punch has to be precise for the bong to work properly...otherwise it gets jammed or you rip your shoulder. on the other hand, if contact is already made and the person still continues attacking, bong can be used to deflect the force, but I don't like using it to intercept punches when biu or tan or pow are there to use as well...

[ng mui rules]

i have used it if fairly real situations. lop sau (bong lop da) is very useful in VERY close in fighting. like when you rush in very close to your oppenent and it makes it hard for them to attack, but they still do and it gives a good opportunity to use lop sau. in regards to using it with a boxer, after you bong their jag, lop as they are pulling back. i hope that is clear. you lop on their retraction. also when doing the bong their arm may skid off yours and not be in contact, so you must lop ****her out to catch their punch. a good way to look at lop'ing on the opponents pull back is when you do lop sau on the dummy. you bong to the outside of the dummy, then you lop the arm of the dummy on the inside. so you are not lopping the same arm you bong'ed, but the other one. (sorry, this is really hard to put into words and not show be able to show you). but i do agreee that bong is not your first choise in a real fight. in a real fight you want to keep it basic, pak sau, tan da, bil. but if you train your bong sau it will be there if you need it. kind of like jut sau, your primary low block is gaun sau, but jut is a back up. now don't get me wrong, you should train everything equally. but what comes out in a real fight is your basics. ;)

[EmptyCup]

"when doing the bong their arm may skid off yours and not be in contact, so you must lop ****her out to catch their punch."

this sounds dangerous as you're chasing hands...also, say I was going for the opponent's left arm, wouldn't this leave my whole left side open?

I have learned the whole dummy routine so i know the part where bong sau is used then a lap with a neck chop. However, the version I learned has the lap on the same hand as the bong...

[mun hung]

...for everything.

Bong sau - lop da can be applied on the street... it's just knowing how and when to use it.

- Whipping Hand Jr. :D

[EmptyCup]

haha :) for a second there I thought it WAS him...

[hunt1]

couple of points.you do not lop a retraction of the arm.in class it might give a nice lever but you are opposing force.go with the direction of the force do not try to see if your lop is stronger than his retraction of his arm.
Bong is great in a fight.sounds like you are blocking and not covering.blocks lead to chasing hands and a loss of timing.cover dont block.remember bong does not remain it forms another position upon contact.bong and biu are the same.
Yip Chun once said there ae only 2 techniques in Wc lop and pak. to simple perhaps but there is a point there worth thinking about.

[EmptyCup]

hunt1, you are correct in saying the bong never stays "bong sau mo ding ying" :)

I think the Yip Man bong is weak. we use it to deflect and always use stance shifting when performing it. However, the bong of other lineages, or even the "chook kiu bong" or forced bridge bong of Yip Man style is more effective. Is this what you mean when saying that the bong and biu are the same? They go in opposite directions!!! unless of course, you're referring to the chook kiu bong...which is stationary and rigid. That works more against hooks then the normal bong

[hunt1]

as i said in my first post the answer depends upon your stage of training and understanding of Wc concepts.My bong is never rigid.the strength or weakness of the bong depends upon the type of energy being projected through the bong.The more rigid or firm the bong the easier it is to take advantage of.Bong and bui are the same.bend a bui you get a bong staighten a bong you get a bui.some perform bong with a forward energy,some spiral some just through it up.some use a bong that is weak but most dont understand the usage of such a bong.collapsing bong is fairly advanced ,many use it to much or dont really understand when it is needed.
I never block so using a bong against a round punch is not something i would do.like most i did use it or something similiar when first starting out in WC.A hook punch is very tight and unless you were using a kup type movement a bong would never stop one or even cover against one.

[Vankuen]

Basically, wing chun is used for fighting, plain and simple. We practice what we use, and use what we practice. The only way a movement is not effective or efficient in my eyes, is when the practitioner is lacking in understanding and skill of that particular technique.

Im sure this probably has been said once already, as many of the people on this forum are in fact sifu's and are knowledgable with what they do, but the bong sau, as I understand it can be used for both offense and defense, it can recieve and it can escort. The key is knowing when and how to use it.

For example, we'll use the boxer who punches and pulls back correctly. There are two things that can happen:

As he punches to your hoi mun, you would use chor ma and bong sau, recieving the punch you move directly into lap da. This is a successful usage of the technique.

OR as he punches and you receive with bong sau, intending to use bong lap da...but when you realize that the punch is already starting to retract...you simply change the intention of the bong into an escorting motion, following the punch in and pinning it with what was the original lap sauing hand, while simultaneously using hoi faan kuen with what was the original bong sau hand thus applying simultaneous attack and defend concept.

This to me, seems like a fairly simple affair of simply understanding energy and how your techniques interact with it.

Train hard.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[This message was edited by Vankuen on 08-17-01 at 07:46 AM.]

[This message was edited by Vankuen on 08-17-01 at 07:47 AM.]

[whippinghand]

however, lap sau is sometimes necessary even when arm is retracting.

[EmptyCup]

Hunt1, I use the collapsing bong. I think that is a good method...

[Nat from UK]

Showing my shallow understanding of Wing Chun but what exactly do you mean by collapsing bong?

Where does appear in the forms ?

I'm not sure if i dont know this or know this by another name.

Nat from UK

[EmptyCup]

the collapsing bong works like this:

1) You either bong initially or use tan or biu or any block inside.

2) The opponent's force is too strong or he renews his attack with the same hand after being blocked already.

3) You shift your stance and drop your hand from a high block or bong to a low bong, thus dissipating the force of the attack

This is used when the force is REALLY strong against you...so all you basically have to do is shift and drop the bong. There is also a collapsing tan where you drop into a low tan from a high block...

[EmptyCup]

the low tan has no angle between the back of the hand and the wrist - the hand is flat and parallel to the floor and the elbow may be moved back to further "lead" the force away from your body. These are advanced techniques though and beginners should not use them in real fights until they are trained properly...especially the "Cutting biu and tans", where you make contact with the bicep instead of the inner srist...Wong Shun Leung liked using the cutting techniques in real fights but I don't think they are necessary. However, the collapsing ones are definitely excellent techniques...

In the dummy form, last section, there are two collapsing bongs. And Chum Kiu has the opposite - the scanning bongs...bongs from low to high.

is this too confusing? Sorry...it's hard to explain but hunt1 knows what I'm talking about as he brought it up...

[wongfeilung809]

i thought when you do collapse, for lack of a better term, you would shooot an elbow forward. not go to a low bong, of course with every tech. i guess its all in the feeling.
simpleangles

[EmptyCup]

The method you're referring to is another one, called "gum tao gut mei" which means when the head is pressed, stick up the tail"

what it is referring to is if your elbow is pressed, flick up the fist and when the wrist is pressed, come down with an elbow...

I only use this if the motion is pressing my arm down vertically. If the force is moving horizontally, I use collapsing bong

Or you could be referring to the "chook kiu bong", or bridge pressing bong which is basically a rigid bong sau used to pin an opponent's bridge...

[Sharky]

bong needs a LOT of practice to work for you. you need a LOT of practice before you can use it. I am not good enough to pull it off, but i think the move is genius.

You don't always START in bong. You may have your arm out stretched, then have it pressured, then the pressure turns to a strike, then you can "collapse" it.

Its wrong to just diss it cos you can't do it.

My anus is superior™

[chi-kwai]

>>"You don't always START in bong. You may have your arm out stretched, then have it pressured, then the pressure turns to a strike, then you can "collapse" it."<<

That is a very important point of bong sao. If you throw a bong up in anticipation of an incoming punch, you open a huge hole in your defenses, right below the bong. It should only be used when coming in contact with an opponents arm, at which point it rolls over with the attack.

--
chi kwai

[EmptyCup]

chi kwai, that's exactly what I am saying :)

[Sharky]

yea, i rock don't i

My anus is superior™