Liu He Ba Fa--Water style boxing???

[atsai]

I clicked on the banner ad above and it took me to this place:

http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tclh001.html

Water boxing?? It says it's "...one of the highest forms of internal martial arts..." From the description it sounds more like yoga. Anyone know anything about this supposed "water style boxing"?

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Water Dragon]

www.liuhopafa.com (http://www.liuhopafa.com)

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[KC Elbows]

water boxing is a legitimate style. Wai Lun Choi in Chicage is the only person I've known who taught it, but the man is a ferocious fighter, and I have no doubts as to the styles usefulness.

[EARTH DRAGON]

water boxing is one of the jewels of china, it is a beautiful style and when used correctly can be very powerful.
They have a form that called up from the ground which is very graceful when perfromed slow but very powerful when executed rapidly like that of tai chi. The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[atsai]

Thanks. Now I see the chinese name, I remember hearing about the style. How does it became known as the "water boxing" here though...?

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[fiercest tiger]

did this style only have one form?

i know a teacher here that teaches this style.

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[swmngdragn]

>water boxing is one of the jewels of china, it is a beautiful style and when used correctly can be very powerful.<

True enough.

>They have a form that called up from the ground which is very graceful when perfromed slow but very powerful when executed rapidly like that of tai chi. The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.<

>EARTH DRAGON

I have no idea where you're going here. You need to realize that the forms do nothing, but teach the techniques, and essential, proper, mechanics. It's up to the individual to train diligently. There's nothing mystical, or magical about LHPF. It's just a matter of hard work, and *correct* practice. Any other benefits that come of the training are just that.... other benefits. Sheesh. :rolleyes: There's no pulling of the chi from the ground, or air, or water, etc... It's all a matter of proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training.
___________________________________
>Thanks. Now I see the chinese name, I remember hearing about the style. How does it became known as the "water boxing" here though...?<

>Art Tsai

The name Water Boxing was the original name of the fighting form. In that the style was like a wave, never relenting, always adapting/changing. It was changed to better reflect the philosophies that are inherent in LHPF. This is from the *martial* art.

What you see from the Liang's is the performance/dance/wushu variety known as "water boxing" in modern gung fu circles. Utterly worthless as a martial art, or, for that matter, a internal art.
__________________________________
>did this style only have one form?

i know a teacher here that teaches this style.<

>fiercest tiger
_________________________________
The style is complete, and there are five kuens. Originally there was only the philosophy, and chi gung of Chen Hsi I. The fighting sets were derived from those.

I know you do. :) We've, very briefly, discussed this before.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[This message was edited by Drake on 10-18-01 at 10:42 PM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

I have no idea where you're going here. You need to realize that the forms do nothing, but teach the techniques, and essential, proper, mechanics. It's up to the individual to train diligently. There's nothing mystical, or magical about LHPF. It's just a matter of hard work, and *correct* practice. Any other benefits that come of the training are just that.... other benefits. Sheesh. There's no pulling of the chi from the ground, or air, or water, etc... It's all a matter of proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training.

I did not mean to imply that it has magical powers, but with any internal style the use of cultivating chi and borrowing universal chi is apparent is it not?
when performing a set of tai chi chuan are you not playing with not only your chi but that of the energy that surronds you?

This is all I meant when I said The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.
But is that not the goal of any internal form? for it is no longer the muscle strength that is used to defend but that of chi! which obviously comes from as you said from proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training. which teaches you how to use internal force as opposed to physical strength.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[NorthernMantis]

Wai Lun Huang also teaches it in Miami.

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[MonkeySlap Too]

The term 'water boxing' refers to common metaphors used in different Xing-Yi schools. It often refers to how the Xing-Yi practitioner attacks - not like a cool lake, but a rapids moving at flood season - unrelenting, pounding, filling every opening given to it.

This is a likely souce of the 'nickname' for the style. This is just a thought I had.

Although the official style name includes 'Xing-Yi' in the title, I am told that it contains elements of BaGua and Taiji. But other than having friends in the style, I have little direct experience - other than I can tell you first hand that you DO NOT want to be thrown by Wai Lun Choi. Whee!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Daniel Madar]

Albert Liu is currently teaching Liu He Ba Fa in SF. I don't know his lineage, but he's a closet kind of guy. I don't think he's tied in to the main stream. I know he studied Hao Style Taiji and Taiji Bagua as well.

I'll try to ask him about it. I can't even remember his full chinese name, but it's in the Sun Lu Tang book that he translated for Tim Cartmell.

Merciless is Mercy.

[swmngdragn]

E.D.

>I did not mean to imply that it has magical powers, but with any internal style the use of cultivating chi and borrowing universal chi is apparent is it not?
when performing a set of tai chi chuan are you not playing with not only your chi but that of the energy that surronds you?<

I'll have to disagree with you, in part, here, E.D. Internal means internal. whatever you want to call the life force/chi/breath etc is an intrinsic part of averyone, and every thing. You can't "borrow" from another source. What you have is what you have, and what you're doing is "exercising" what you have. Developing it.

>This is all I meant when I said The practioner pulls the chi from the ground and encircles it and depenses it at will against their opponents.<

:rolleyes: See above.

>But is that not the goal of any internal form? for it is no longer the muscle strength that is used to defend but that of chi! which obviously comes from as you said from proper physics, biology, kineseology, proper breathing, and training. which teaches you how to use internal force as opposed to physical strength.<

You're getting into esoterics. It *may* just be a matter of semantics, here. See above, again.

Slap2monkeys..... ;)

Hsing-I *isn't* part of the name. Hsin Yi is. Mind/Intent, as opposed to Heart/Will.

Best regards,

R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oops, my bad.

But isn't Hsin Yi an alternate name for one of the historical branches of Xing Yi? As in - the same 'family' or grouping?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[swmngdragn]

>Oops, my bad.<

(insert Raymond Burr type voice)
Yeeeeessss..... You *aaaarrrrrre*. Now bend over. :p

>But isn't Hsin Yi an alternate name for one of the historical branches of Xing Yi? As in - the same 'family' or grouping?<

In the larger sense? Yes, but each has it's own "flavour", and "sensebilities" that are unique to said style(s).

That being said, Hua Shan Hsin Yi Liu Ho Pa Fa Chuan's use of Hsin Yi is a much more appropriate description as opposed to Hsing-I. Again, though, it may just be a matter of semantics. I dunno. ;)

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Nahh, there are some distinctions between the two - and I used to know this, but I guess I've been getting choked too much lately, I can't for the friggin life of me remember...

Grrr.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Brad]

Did anyone see the LHBF demonstration at the Baltimore tournament? Who was that?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think you may misunderstand what I am getting at in regards to borrowing chi.
In a simple example we borrow chi from trees, the circle of exsistence is countinual without trees their is no oxygen so in a sense we borrow life from other sources. When we train internal there is a part of ourselves that uses the energy that we have cultivated and their is also a part that is taken from other things like air, earhts magnatics, atmouspheric ions and such. That is a little scientific but I am trying to explain my point. Do you not agree? how long have you been training internal? have you not experinenced this?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[swmngdragn]

>I think you may misunderstand what I am getting at in regards to borrowing chi.
In a simple example we borrow chi from trees, the circle of exsistence is countinual without trees their is no oxygen so in a sense we borrow life from other sources. When we train internal there is a part of ourselves that uses the energy that we have cultivated and their is also a part that is taken from other things like air, earhts magnatics, atmouspheric ions and such. That is a little scientific but I am trying to explain my point. Do you not agree? how long have you been training internal? have you not experinenced this?<

I understand where you're coming from. I just don't agree with the "borrowing" concept. The "chi" we have is what we're born with. We *don't* cultivate it from other sources, and attributing it to some outside force is an erroneous statement. If we give up our "chi" we die, as does anything else. ((shrug)) I don't look to the outside, and never have. My teacher had informed me that this was correct. "Chi" is difficult, at best, to explain in words. It's easy to describe the feeling, and even then, everyone's feelings/experiences are different. It's an individual experience. My experiences are not based on a concept that includes "absorbtion" of an esoteric concept. My experience(s) is/are based on training correctly, and *feeling* what's going on with my body. As I said, it's an individual thing. My length of time in the martial arts is irrelevant, but if you must know, I've been involved in them in various forms for around twenty eight years. So I *do* have some small experience.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[MonkeySlap Too]

According to TCM, there are three sources of 'Qi' in the body.
Your pre-birth Qi - what comes from your parents - you are born with it. This Qi slowly fades with age. It cannot be added to - unless you beleive in certain Taoist Qigong practices.

Qi from outside sources - nourishment - Air, Sun, Food.

Qi from activity - exercise.

Out of these three comes many breakdowns. The word Qi can mean intrinsic force or energy, and can have many meanings depending on it's usage.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Is not breathing borrowing chi from other/outside sources?

drake I did not mean to offend you by asking about how long have you trained, but many times I have had similar conversations about chi and its depths with begginer students who have not grasped even what chi is! so again I did not mean to imply that you did not understand chi concepts just wanted to know where you are at experience wise, I have trained for 19 years so I too have started to understand a little I like how you put that, my thoughts exactly!!! yet its funny to try to expalain things to people with 8 months under their belt who seem to know everythiong all already!!!! LOL

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[MonkeySlap Too]

It is more like 'transforming'. You don't 'borrow' the Qi - you take the Air and transform it into Qi - a specific type.

You could right a book on all this stuff, but none of it is terribly mystical once you understand it.

To Drake's point - the most significant aspects of 'internal' training can be explained through physics and physiology.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Kung Lek]

I wanna jump in on the "chi" thing :)

I gotta agree with mslap and drake, Chi in the self is -maintained- and cultivated ,improved and made more robust, in the self.

food, air, water, contribute to that maintenance, but the power is all you. YOu are not by any means transmitting or "channelling" tree energy through yourself or earth energy or the rest of it.

You can link and unlink to/from the external, but everything in between (read -you-) is all you.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[EARTH DRAGON]

I do not in anyway mean that chi is not in thy self as kunglek said but everthing is chi, it is intertwined with all life as a circle and part of that circle is borrowing and giving.

Many qigong excercises pull or take chi from the ground and give it or push it to the heavens. This is not only the chi that is in us by "self cultivation" but that also surrounds us naturally, we do not own this chi but we can borrow it and give it back,
As mslap said "transforming" but to first in order to transform something we have to get from somewhere or borrow it then transform it like breathing for example. But without getting to deep in a long topic which I can see happening I will leave it at that
That may sound a little korney to you but that is the best way I can explain what I originally meant at the begginng of this great conversation.
As with any thing that has to do with chi
to feel is easy
to explain is not
to master is enlightenment

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[This message was edited by EARTH DRAGON on 10-24-01 at 10:19 PM.]

[MonkeySlap Too]

Borrowing implies you are giving it back - like 'dad, can I borrow ten bucks?' - well, maybe THAT doesn't. But that's my point.

Sure there are Qigong methods that work on taking and transforming other types of Qi.

I would think that what Drake inferred was that these exercises are not the really important part in developing internal strength. The body structure, focusing the Yi (Song), and freeing up the circulation (relaxation) all return dividends that are objectively measurable.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[swmngdragn]

>Borrowing implies you are giving it back - like 'dad, can I borrow ten bucks?' - well, maybe THAT doesn't. But that's my point.

Sure there are Qigong methods that work on taking and transforming other types of Qi.

I would think that what Drake inferred was that these exercises are not the really important part in developing internal strength. The body structure, focusing the Yi (Song), and freeing up the circulation (relaxation) all return dividends that are objectively measurable.<

In a nut shell. Correct mechanics + correct training = correct results. Attempting to discover the "where's", and "why's" are left up to those with mastery. And the time. I'm just interested in results, and am not interested in these. No one on this board should. Not at this time. Results are what we are all interested in. Not only me.

Plus, E.D., speaking plainly helps where the TCMA are concerned. We all use differing terminology, and it bodes well for those of you who teach to make certain you're understood in as plain a manner as possible. It's amazing how many "flame wars" can be alleviated by just speaking plainly, and as simply as possible.

I understood what you were saying, and why, and where you were coming from. However, there's no need to come across as a "sifu". Only a seeker. Like the rest of us. :) What I was looking for, from you, is to explain yourself in the simplest terms possible. Using Western language equivalents. This way everyone can enjoy what is being written, and, perhaps, learn something new.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[This message was edited by Drake on 10-25-01 at 07:33 PM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree we have totally got off the subject and dug deep into a topic that has no bottom so lets get back to the tread shall we?
did you see the chinese girl and her father perform water boxing at the kung fu championships in FLA?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[KC Elbows]

Sorry to drag it off the topic again, but isn't breathing technically borrowing chi? My understanding was that we emit chi from the bubbling wells, and take it in in other ways, so borrowing doesn't seem that poor a description of it.

[swmngdragn]

Howdy,E.D. :)

>I agree we have totally got off the subject and dug deep into a topic that has no bottom so lets get back to the thread shall we?
did you see the chinese girl and her father perform water boxing at the kung fu championships in FLA?<

The Liangs? Yes. Helen performed her set at that competition, and although she is beautiful to watch, and a great performance artist, it wasn't LHPF. It's the PRC sanctioned competition set. Performance only.
I'd seen her father Liang Shou Yu perform that same set at a prior competition.
Although they are both great athletes, and, according to a aquaintance, great coaches. When it comes to LHPF they know nothing. ((shrug))

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.
com)
http://www.liuhopafa.co
m/
"Train, or go to hell."
Terry W.

[Royal Dragon]

She's a cutie in her video though!!!!! ;)


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[BeiKongHui]

How does one know what is legitimate Liu He Ba Fa? We have a lady here who claims to know it and I feel it may be a wushu form. If it is for real it sounds very interesting though.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Grappling-Insanity]

No offence Earth Dragon but it does sound a lil' bit far fetched. Sounds to me like a bunch of magical mumbo jumbo. At least Drake sounds realistic, you sound like darth vader.

[EARTH DRAGON]

ever since I studied qigong with a master of jin gon tzu li gong I have a different veiw of chi. She has taught me the true meaning of chi and for many americans it seems far fetched for we have little understanding of it.
She has told me things that I still have a hard time understanding even wqith a open mind, so as my knowledge grows so does my intelect.
drake I am supriseed to hear you say that, for I will admitt my knowledge of the style is limited but it seemed that they knew of it in a experienced way. the more I learn the less I know.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Ky-Fi]

Well, a couple years ago I learned a bit of Liang Shou Yu's Liu He Ba Fa form from YMAA. Liang had given a seminar their recently and had been working with Dr. Yang, and Dr. Yang passed it on to some interested students. Now, Dr. Yang certainly didn't claim to be a master of this style or to be able to teach it in depth---he was just giving us an idea of the flavor of it with some basic apps----but I'm fairly certain he didn't consider Liang's version of the style "useless performance art".


Although this article is written by a student and goes a bit sappy in lavishing the praise, here's a biography of Liang Shou Yu courtesy of this site:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/HomePage/magazine/2000/KF200010/Mag200010.htm

Drake, I know you've stated your opinion on Liang's water boxing on here numerous times. I've never met the Liangs, and I don't study the style, so I'm not taking any offense----my knowledge of the art is is next to nothing, and for all I know your opinion may be completely correct. But, the only justifications for your opinion that I've heard you state is that Liang is a "performance artist", and that he's not of the one true lineage (read: yours). Can you give us some specific details on why Liang's LHPF is useless? What does his whole curriculum of this style consist of? What sort of a time frame does he have for his training scedule? Does he not have a deep understanding of qigong? No applications? No jing training? Is he breaking principles of the style? No body conditioning or sparring? I'm not asking these questions rhetorically or sarcastically---I don't know the answers myself. But I think if you're going to state that a master's style is useless, it would help all of us here to know WHY it's useless.

I don't think there's any students of Liang Shou Yu on this board, but just to present the other side I would quote this piece from Helen Liang in that same issue of the magazine. Although it's about LHBF, I think it's a great piece about CMA in general:


The Many Schools of Liu He Ba Fa

Today there are many different schools of Liu He Ba Fa. There are schools in Guanxi, Sichuan, Shanxi and Guangdong. The way they practice, and the movements of their styles are quite similar. The only differences lie in the height of the postures--high stance or low stance---and in the issuing or not issuing of energy (fa-jing). Then there is the Shanghai school which has its own unique characteristice. LHBF as practiced in Hong Kong and throughout southeast Asia is again quite different from any of the mainland schools in approach and expression. Each school, however, claims to be the sole authentic interpreter of the original style; others are mere variants or deviations of the true lineage. We should understand that geographical, regional differences, ethnic diversity, differences in culture and tradition, and changing emphasis on different aspects of the same art by different teachers inevitably lead to changes and variations. Even students of the same teacher will develop individual traits and expressions while learning and practicing the same form, as a result of varying degrees of personal development, of intensity of training, and quality of daily practice.

There are always varying levels of skills and understanding from individual to individual. Some variations of the form are unfortunately the result of mistakes, of wrong practice, but a lot more are the products of years of continual refinement, of courageous exploration, and the will to excellence. Things change. People change. The world is made up of living people who change and grow. Things that don't change, die. LHBF is a living art, a living martial art. We should be happy that so many schools exist, and should get together to further explore, refing and perfect the art. This will keep it alive and well.

[This message was edited by Ky-Fi on 10-27-01 at 07:57 AM.]

[Royal Dragon]

You know, the thought has struck me that if you want to be sure you have the authentic article, you must learn the main form of a style from as many lines as possible.

For example, with Li Hu, Pa Fa you have one main 512 to 700 move form. EVERY Li Hu, Pa Fa line has it. Since the 4 smaller forms are realy just progresive ways of learning the main one, once you have mastered the first 4 should'nt you keep seeking out the main form form ALL the Li Hu, Pa Fa lines? Only them would you be qualified to judge wether or not any of them are authentic or not.

Lets say 3 of the lines you studied under are VERY similar, both on history. movent and Mechanics, but one is way out there in left field and not even adhearing to the base mechanics, you can be sure that the "Odd" one is mostly for show.

You see, may Kung Fu lines are in COMPETITION with one another. The guy who gets the lable "Authentic" can set himself up as an authority on the subject and thus rep the "spoils of war" so to speak.

Li Hu, Pa Fa is over 1000 years old. Just like my system (Tai Tzu) it has evolved in a number of directions. Unless you have the documentation of the original forms developed by the style's creator, all you can do is learn a variety of lineages and compare commonalitys and differences, nothing more.

Coments anyone?

Royal Dragon


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Piccolo Junior]

"Wai Lun Huang also teaches it in Miami."

I'm assuming he's related to Wai Lun Choi.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

[Water Dragon]

Wai Lun is a first name. That's like assuming Johnny Bravo is related to Johnny Rocket.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[swmngdragn]

Here's an attempt to express/explain what I've been stating..... Bear with me.

Liang Shou Yu had some excellent teachers in China, and was a shuai chiao champion, I believe. He was hand picked by the then PRC government types to be the "standard bearer" for the martial arts at that time. Then he emmigrated to Canada. Now it was time for him to earn a living. A good portion of his training was in P.R.C. sanctioned competition forms. With "LHPF" being one of them.

Aside from what other styles/forms the man
teaches, his "LHPF" is *not* a martial art, but a martial *performance*. Having had the opportunity to see both types of forms in person, and having studied the style for some time, I'm qualified to make the statement. I'm not, in any way, demeaning the man, or his accomplishments (LSY). I'm just stating a fact that what he teaches ("LHPF") is for performance only, and that's no knock on him. He can only teach what he has been taught. ((shrug))

He can make it work for him by adapting his knowledge of other fighting styles to the form, but it's still only a performance piece. He's still a great coach, and judging by his daughter(s) performance(s), a great teacher as well.

The legitimate Liu Ho Pa Fa lineage is *very* small. With only a few genuine teachers, and even fewer "masters", and only *one* lineage head. Period. It *still* is the last of the closed door systems. What the general public sees is *one* form, and that simply isn't the case. There're several forms for fighting, and several more for developmental purposes, and without the proper instruction/instructor all that is left is some writings, and an external style. The writings have been published for many, many years. So those are available to everyone. The insights come from the previous generations of lineage heads who have written down those experiences, and handed them down from one generation to the next. Right now those manuscripts belong to the current lineage head, Wai Lun Choi.

What's needed is a delineation of the external/wushu/dance/performance art, and the martial art. A clear delineation. What Choi sifu teaches is the legitimate martial art, and what most others, including Linag, teach is not. It's either the generalized long form with no corrections, the dance/performance variety, or a form that may be half remembered "LHPF concept ", and is taught as the "real thing".

Other styles have this same problem, as well. It's just that these arts have been so widely taught that they're impossible to separate. They each incorporate several performance pieces for the masses. Some have been so intermingled with other arts as to be indistinguishable from the original. I take it back. Not the same problem. Worse.

Enny hoo....... The simplest reason for me to make the statement that I did was that the discrepencies are so incredibly vivid to a student of the actual legitimate lineage that it's difficult to say nothing. I rarely do. In this case I had to reply in order to let you folk understand where I'm coming from. A bit. I never intend to start a "flame war", or an "internet battle", or hard feelings. It's just information that I'm offering. Not speculation. Nothing other than facts.

Ky Fi:

Just to let you know. I see a myriad of discrepencies in Mr. Liangs mechanics, his adherence to the principles, etc... How is he supposed to know these things if he'd never been taught them? I *never* stated the Mr. Liang's forms were useless. Only his "LHPF" form. If it came across that way? Well, then I was at fault for not clarifying the matter.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[This message was edited by Drake on 10-27-01 at 04:59 PM.]

[Royal Dragon]

You know, in that sexy white silk uniform she is wearing? When she turns just right into the light of the camera, you can see she does'nt have any undies on!!! :eek:


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Ky-Fi]

Drake, OK, I guess I would have to have the questions I listed in my first post answered in detail before I could concur with your opinion.

Like I said though, I've never met the Liangs, and I don't study the style, so there's no hard feelings on my part----this is just a theoretical debate for me :).

[swmngdragn]

>(snip for brevity)........ Can you give us some specific details on why Liang's "LHPF" is useless?<

No design for combat. Overexaggeration of movement. Complete elimination of certain sections of the basic so-called "LHPF main form". No basic fundementals regarding the inherent principles of LHPF. No external harmony evident. No internal harmony evident. Movement is *not* generated from the waist/hip, but from the independant appendages. The form itself is useless as a focal point for anything other than from a performance perspective. Etc.......


>What does his whole curriculum of this style consist of?<

As far as LHPF? The "san pan shr shi", or the 12 animal forms.( Which were never a part of his (LSY) curriculum until Choi sifu put out a series of tapes of them a few years ago.) And the performance oriented long form.

>.....(snip)... I'm not asking these questions rhetorically or sarcastically---I don't know the answers myself. But I think if you're going to state that a master's style is useless, it would help all of us here to know WHY it's useless.<

He's not a master of LHPF by *any* stretch of the imagination. He shows no evidence of even the most basic principles. That's why.

Real shows up, and out, performances fade from sight.

>I don't think there's any students of Liang Shou Yu on this board, but just to present the other side I would quote this piece from Helen Liang in that same issue of the magazine. Although it's about LHBF, I think it's a great piece about CMA in general:

The Many Schools of Liu He Ba Fa<

A piece that was mainly copied from a article one of my my si hing's wrote several years ago, and forgot to copy write. It's on Choi sifu's website. Most of the articles written about LHPF have been "borrowed" from the website, and any other information has been published for many years, in China, and in the west. As for any claims of "many schools....". The one mitigating factor is the fundamental mechanics. I don't care where you learned it from, or from who, but if you, your teacher, or your teachers' teacher *cannot* show *any* evidence of the *core* mechanics, then it's nothing but an external form, and that "sifu" has no business teaching it as a legitimate form of LHPF. The style/forms may alter over time, but the mechanics are the same. Period. The "many schools" argument is an attempt to legitimize a position that cannot be defended on the basis of physical evidence. All you have to do is look at any traditional form, and then the performance variety. Just from a visual standpoint it's easy to distinguish one from the other.

I *don't* want to denigrate the man's other accomplishments, or dissuade anyone from training with him. I've said all along that he was a fine coach, and teacher. *That* alone makes him special. All I'd like is for those people who promote *Traditional* Chinese Martial Arts to actually *do* them. Even in a performance setting. Those who *know* that what they're teaching is a performance oriented/dance/wushu style need to aknowledge it, and move on. There will still be those people who want traditional, and those who want the modern wushu. ((shrug))

You see, LHPF is the *youngest* of the internal arts, and was taught to only a select few up until 75 years ago. The lineage is clear, and *very* small. So anyone who was designated a lineage holder is honored in that line. *Everyone* is tracable through it back to Li Dong Feng, so it's easily tracable. No Liang's in it. :) Doesn't matter, though. Business is business, and it'll remain that way until someone gets all these gents in a room, and the last one standing is the one who's right. ;) Too bad *that'll* never happen.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[This message was edited by Drake on 10-28-01 at 07:39 PM.]

[Ky-Fi]

Drake,
Well, given how long Liang Shou Yu has beens studying MA's, who some of his teachers were, and the fact that he seems to have a pretty solid shuia jiao and sanshou background--It would kind of take a lot of people with first hand experience saying that he couldn't fight before I could conclude that a style of his is "worthless as a martial art."---but I appreciate your point that it's more a question of whether or not it's legitimately LHBF.

As far as the Liangs stealing forms and plagiarizing articles from your school---heck, I don't even like getting into the intra-style politics and gripes when I KNOW something about the style and people involved---let alone when I'm clueless about both.

So, I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion because I really don't have enough knowledge of the style or the individuals to discuss this on your level, and I can't honestly say I have the inclination to investigate all sides of the issue on my own :).

I do, however, appreciate you taking the time to substantiate your opinions.

[Royal Dragon]

I heard a rummur reacently, from a close friend, that Helen Liang Shaves!!!! :eek: I'm getting all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it!!!! :p

RD


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[joedoe]

RD, you are a prize idiot :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi