Oh Snap! A problem with "throwing" arts.

[rogue]

My friend was telling me about a visit from an Aikidoka to his school. Things were fine until they were working techniques against punches. Well the Aikidoka offers to show the guy he's paired up with what he would do against a punch which would be a throw, so the guy he's paired up with says "Great show me". Well before my friend can intervene his student throws the punch which the Aikidoka catches and proceeds with the "throw". Well puncher expected to be thrown like in Judo or karate, the Aikidoka was expecting the puncher to throw himself. What the Aikidoka forgot was that the technique is really a wrist break and only a throw against a trained uke. The aikidoka realized this partway through the trechnique, my friend yelling stop may have tipped him off, so the puncher may have avoided a full wrist break. There was lots of swelling when his wife drove him to the hospital but the guy hasn't been back to class yet.

[KC Elbows]

That would be the definition of suckage for both the thrower and the victim.

[Christopher M]

Could this be a problem specific to aikido? According to Tomiki, Aikido was developed as a training method for atemi waza (striking) and kansetsu waza (joint attacks) to compliment Judo as a training method for katame waza (grappling) and nage waza (throwing) (1 (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi4.html)). It seems, from their understanding of aikido, like most people either disagree with or are unaware of this idea.

[Kristoffer]

Just spent an hour today drilling Qin Na techs. You get pretty sore after awhile. I think that training the way Aikido does builds up a false skill, wich is hard to do to an resisting oponent. How many can say that they've mastered any Qin Na technique to the point where they can really use them in say sparring? Not many. I've realized I should spend alot more training time on this.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
I think that training the way Aikido does builds up a false skill

What 'way' do you mean?


How many can say that they've mastered any Qin Na technique to the point where they can really use them in say sparring?

There seems to be lots of evidence that grappling techniques can work very well in sparring. Or do you mean a specific style when you say 'Qin Na'?

[Kristoffer]

Originally posted by Christopher M
What 'way' do you mean?





That they train with hardly any resisting force. As far as I've seen from demos, atleast.



Originally posted by Christopher M




There seems to be lots of evidence that grappling techniques can work very well in sparring. Or do you mean a specific style when you say 'Qin Na'?

Qin Na, as in joint manipulations. Standing joint locks/breaks, bone crushing etc.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
That they train with hardly any resisting force.

Aha. Yes, I agree that training against resistance is a crucial aspect of martial arts training. I think, though, that the absence of such training is an error general to martial arts rather than specific to aikido. And I think that some aikidoka agree and train against resisting partners as well as the more cooperative formats for which the style is better known.


Qin Na, as in joint manipulations. Standing joint locks/breaks, bone crushing etc.

So you're saying that standing grappling is generally unsuccessful in sparring? Would this include, for example, judo and greco-roman wrestling techniques?

[Enforcer-]

According to bullshido it is impossible to catch a punch.

[SPJ]

If you may not catch the punch;

Mantis, you move your fists up and down along your center line, you hammer the forearms of the puncher. Shaolin called this move Luo Han Ji Gu (arhat beating the drum).

Xing Yi, you punch the wrist and the arm of the puncher.

Tai Ji, Ban Lan Zwei, you move your both arms circularly to strike the punching arm or kicking leg of the opponent.

Bai Ji, you move in, dodge and confine the punching fist and punch or elbow strike at the same time. Lian Yi Ding.

On and on.

Punch the punching arm and kick the kicking leg. Watch Jet Li's movies to "see" how and why.

:D

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
According to bullshido it is impossible to catch a punch.

yeah and we will forget that.

[rogue]

I wasn't slighting Aikido which is an art that I think offers alot, it was just something passed on to me from an associate. My JJJ sensei told us about a Hapkido school where the uke were launching themselves in wonderful flips without much incentive from the thrower. Obviously they weren't resisting and he didn't feel that they could use it for real.

How to practice locks/breaks has always interested me. The question whether to execute the lock full speed and have the uke toss himself or go slower with more control and have uke react in a more realistic fashion has good answers from both sides. I noticed that on his Systema tapes Vasilev goes moderate speed against a very relaxed partner. I'd like to hear anyone elses training methods for breaks.

Those Judoka and BJJ practitioners have it so darn easy! :D

The other thing is how the Aikidoka thought of what he did as a throw and not a breakl. I've seen this in other places where the techniques intent is lost in how it's practiced.

[MonkeySlap Too]

They really said that on Bullshido? Pretty foolish....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Christopher M
So you're saying that standing grappling is generally unsuccessful in sparring? Would this include, for example, judo and greco-roman wrestling techniques?

he's referring to locking, not takedowns, sweeps and throws.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Could this be a problem specific to aikido? According to Tomiki, Aikido was developed as a training method for atemi waza (striking) and kansetsu waza (joint attacks) to compliment Judo as a training method for katame waza (grappling) and nage waza (throwing) (1 (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi4.html)). It seems, from their understanding of aikido, like most people either disagree with or are unaware of this idea. Yep, I disagree. It would make sense from Tomiki's perspective, as he was an accomplished judoka. For Ueshiba, who did not practice judo, and did not have such a demarcation line between the aikijutsu techs he was taught and the aikido principles that he passed on, it doesn't seem a likely explanation.

Enforcer, try asking your teacher. There are many ways to catch punches, depending on what kind of a punch, and how fast you are. If you're talking about stopping one out of the air like in the movies, of course not, but if you're talking about bridging/parrying/slipping to initiate then taking the arm/hand then that's by no means impossible (as SPJ and Monkeyslap said). Some aikido schools teach these methods!

And I agree completely with what Chris M said about levels of resistance practise in aiki and other arts.

[Icewater]

I would argue that Aikido does not teach catching punches, but tends to work from deflection. After the deflection, good Aikidoka will continue to use the energy of the attacker to their advantage until a break or a throw presents itself.

[Kristoffer]

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't putting down Aikido, rather than I was using it as an example of a system where 'most' of it's practioners seem to train without resisting. I agree that as Chris M stated that there probably is Aikidokas that do train with resisting partners.
And as SevenStar wrote I wasn't talking about throws, takedowns, or sweeps.


IMO Qin Na is very effective. But it's definatly alot harder to be good at than throws or the like

[FuXnDajenariht]

maybe it is possible to catch a punch but the question is why would you want to?

[Starchaser107]

many reasons why trading punches might not be ideal.
Chin Na is effective and may be used for
subdueing a person and controlling them without having to duke it out, it's quick it's effective and if done right it's safer for you and the person you're encountering... this has significant effect in law enforcement... how would you feel if you saw an officer of the law beating someone into submission , or shooting them into compliance? (probably not too good eh)
For self defence Chin Na can be used to end a serious confrontation quickly and is probably going to be useful for dispatching multiple opponents. Bone Breaking and Tearing of Muscles and Sinews might not stop an attacker but it just might give you the edge you need.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I agree that as Chris M stated that there probably is Aikidokas that do train with resisting partners.

LMAO!

I'm probably the only person on this forum who has "fought" aikidoka on several occasions allowing them to use all of their "deadly bone snapping techniques".

And I've NEVER seen them (years of experience) win vs. a judoka above 3rd rank kyu. (roughly a judoka with more than 6-9 mo. training)

They don't train in reality.

[Kristoffer]

and?

We're discussing joint locks

[ShaolinTiger00]

and....

they do not work on a resisting opponent, only fantasy land..

[Starchaser107]

yawn.

[ShaolinTiger00]

speaking of fantasy..


For self defence Chin Na can be used to end a serious confrontation quickly and is probably going to be useful for dispatching multiple opponents.

Mr. Segal, you're aware that cops use some aikido type wrist locks? Do you know how they accomplish this?

BY GETTING 4 COPS TO PILE ON THE SINGLE PERP, BRING HIM DOWN TO THE GROUND AND CONTROL HIM, THEN USE A LOCK TO GET HIM INTO CUFFS.

:rolleyes:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I'm probably the only person on this forum who has "fought" aikidoka on several occasions allowing them to use all of their "deadly bone snapping techniques"... they do not work on a resisting opponent, only fantasy land.

So the experience you describe here occurred in fantasy land? :confused:

[rogue]

Let's face it, Aikido is not a sparring art. If someone resists an Aikido technique in their dojo they at the very least end up with a sprain. From my limited experience with Aikido encouraging students to resist techniques is not built into the art, from everything that I've seen resisting a technique is punished. All of the Aikidoka that I know who can spar against a resisting opponent have studied other arts.

The few times when I've been lucky to spar with an Aikidoka they used atemi, which against anybody who has a decent amount of training in striking, is pretty useless. But I've also had many times where I ended up on the ground in a painful position when I've let them get around me.

ShaolinTiger00, how did you beat the Aikidoka? The times I've been succesful was when I broke their base with low kicks and using combinations, usually when they were trying to use atemi. Also footwork was a major factor in ruining their game.

[Starchaser107]

Shaolin Tiger
Mr. Segal uses the Japanese art of Aikido, I was referring to Shaolin Chin Na if you read my post.
Also I was speaking to Mr. Degenerate so please excuse yourself.

[ShaolinTiger00]

how did you beat the Aikidoka?


I took them all down very easily and applied submissions at will.

If memory serves me:

- set up dbl leg with head and shoulder push to a feint into the shoot. passed a non existent guard to the mount and applied an ude garami.

- set up a single sweep with another head push. applied a nami jime choke from side control.

- sasae tsurikomi ashi into the rear mount for choke.

- duck under to tani otoshi for ippon.

- single leg pickup to an ouchi gari for ippon.

- duck under to suplex.

- ouchi tai otoshi for ippon.

-yoko otoshi into mount into juji gatame (armbar)

-sprawled into a crossface and sunk in a rear naked choke

-duck under to tani otoshi for ippon

-ouchi gari tai otoshi for ippon

-ouchi gari to kouchi gari. passed guard to rear mount and choke.

somewhere around this time 9-11 happened and the aikido club came less and less frequently due to the security issues on campus and shortly after they moved to another location.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
LMAO!

I'm probably the only person on this forum who has "fought" aikidoka on several occasions allowing them to use all of their "deadly bone snapping techniques".

And I've NEVER seen them (years of experience) win vs. a judoka above 3rd rank kyu. (roughly a judoka with more than 6-9 mo. training)

They don't train in reality. Dude, you've said this **** so many times, and most of the times I've called you on it, and most of the time you ignore me on it.

1) Generally I agree.
2) I've fought (not professionally but full- and semi-contact sparring, sometimes with protection, sometimes without) using aiki and against aikidoka... admittedly mostly before I knew any hardcore grapplers but I've applied some principles and techniques successfully and failed in some on people from pretty much every style I can think of except capoeira (never met any for sparring).

A couple of grappling examples from my shooto class:

iriminage against double-leg shoot,
aiki-kokyu-nage against shoot (this is the single most gay flowery tech in aikido!),
tenchinage from clinch,
sankyou to tapout from guard.

I should also note that all of these were against people who are stronger, heavier and more experienced in grappling than I am (tho I'm a noob so that's not difficult).

In fairness I should also say, the number of times I've tried **** like that and got owned are probably higher than the number of successes.

I've also neutralized a shodan judoka in sparring and successfully used iriminage.

3) I have also had to stop techs when my opponent wasn't used to what was happening, or grappling in general and wasn't tapping, but was in too much pain to say anything... though fortunately I usually err on the side of caution and on only one occasion has this resulted in popping someone's wrist (don't know how bad it was but he went to the doctor and his wrist was still painful a month later).

Sometimes I have also stopped techs (maybe correctly thinking that the other person was going to get something broken), leaving me in a disadvantaged position which has then got me owned.

4) You're talking largely about one school of aikidoka, in one country, almost certainly from one organization. That just ain't a sample!

5) I have been taught aiki by cops, including a chief inspector who is one of the main organizers of seminars for riot police in the UK and Amsterdam, who also teaches side handle baton, and I've trained with prison officers, and doormen, and all of these people have:

a) shown me the difference between what works and what doesn't,
b) shown me a great deal of resistance,
c) told me of and shown me techs that they have used in one-versus-many sits, many-versus-one sits and one-versus-one sits.

I would concur with Rogue that aiki does not make a good sparring art. Partly because most of the practitioners do not train 'in reality' and also because most of their opponents don't know what's going on before it's too late, and also because most aikidoka don't have the control to know how to stop a tech without damaging someone whilst still demonstrating control... myself included tho I'm getting better at it solely because of practising more in more sparring-friendly arts.

So there you go, there's another version of the same post I post each time this comes up and each time you (ST00) post the same thing. I don't know why!

[ShaolinTiger00]

Dude, you've said this **** so many times, and most of the times I've called you on it, and most of the time you ignore me on it.

signed yours truly, an angry aikidoka.

I'm sorry my post makes you anrgy because it hurts your feelings Mat. next life, pick a better fighting system.

and how have you "called me on it" ? I've always told my expereince with aikido and how ineffective it was.

You have something contradictory to say? then post your experience and stfu.

[David Jamieson]

There are a huge amount of levels of skill amongst martial artists.

If we say that there are hypothetically 10,000 martial artists on the planet, then hypothetically and comparibly with the reality, we can say that of those 10,000 only 1 trains correctly and is at a skill level that could be considered high.

Having said that, measuring your skill in the martial arts is not something that can be easily done because each opponent you face is not consistently the same in both physical prowess or in strategic and tactical ability.

So, contests are had. And they are generally not open. Judo does not often compete against boxing, archery does not compete against fencing and so on. So contests are a measure of a general approach or of ranked peers in the same aspect of martial arts.

In reality, there are text book techniques in every style that will indeed work as prescribed. It is up to the individual to train the techniques to efficiency and proficiency.

ST00- you may very well have beaten and aikidoka on more than one occasion, but you can't measure your victories against the entire art of aikido. You simply haven't faced someone who can take you with it yet. I'm willing to bet there are aikidoka that could defeat you with relative ease, you just haven't met them yet. :p

Again, this seems to be a style vs style issue which is moot as we should know by now.

My friend says : will beats skill. I agree on some levels, but not all. But when it comes to garden variety martial artists, will does beat skill 9 times out of 10.

[Icewater]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I've always told my expereince with aikido and how ineffective it was.

I have used several techniques that I learned from Aikido during Kung-Fu sparring and they are quite effective. One of Aikido's basic principles is to step off the line of attack. I find their escapes to be effective especially for smaller people because of Aikido's excellent use of balance and position. And don't let a good Aikidoka catch your arm while you are pawing or off balance.

In addition, I find that when Aikido is applied and takes effect, game over. You can take a punch, but a broken wrist really takes out the steam.

I (like many others) do not completely agree with their traditional training methods, but to say that it is ineffective is gross negligence.


next life, pick a better fighting system.

Everyone likes a little a$$, but no one likes a smarta$$.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Christopher M
So the experience you describe here occurred in fantasy land? :confused:

lol.

I had to read it twice before the irony hit me.

nice

[ShaolinTiger00]

but you can't measure your victories against the entire art of aikido. You simply haven't faced someone who can take you with it yet. I'm willing to bet there are aikidoka that could defeat you with relative ease,

My experience tells me that I can make an educated judgement about the effectiveness of aikido. Please remember there were many other judoka and aikidoka sparring besides myself with very similar results.

You're willing to bet that there are aikidoka that can beat me. Seems to me that you presume to think that I am not a good fighter. ;) My experience again tells me differently..

[Lowlynobody]

You have something contradictory to say? then post your experience and stfu.

Wait? Wasn't that what he did?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Wasn't that what he did?

After whining about my post.

[Mr Punch]

LOL, you chose the one thing in my post that sounded even remotely 'whiney' or even more remotely 'angry'!!! :D

I then presented you with another side to the discussion... based on my experience. Obviously I'm not gonna persuade you out of your argument, based on your exp, but I was calling you again on your attitude based on exps from one dojo in one organization in one area of one country. If that sounds whiney or angry to you, I suggest you don't take any further part in this discussion as for some reason it looks like you're the one with a chip on your shoulder [shrug].

I'm not even an aikidoka anymore, because I wanted to learn a fighting system (aikido is not one at all) but my aiki gave me a solid base and some useful practical techs against fighters from many styles. To you they probably wouldn't even look like aiki, but that's another discussion altogether.

You didn't hurt my feelings, I guess I'm not as sensitive as you. Furthermore I wasn't suggesting you weren't any use as a fighter, I was suggesting that some aikidoka (although admittedly crosstrained ones, but isn't that the same in any art these days?) make good fighters.

[ShaolinTiger00]

but my aiki gave me a solid base and some useful practical techs against fighters from many styles. To you they probably wouldn't even look like aiki, but that's another discussion altogether.

Well good for you. If you think you've learned something useful, then that is a positive thing. In my opinion, I believe that the useful / to time training ratio of aikido is horrible and I'm sure that was part of the reason why you're studying something else now.

Nothing personal Mat. I've got my opinion and I want to help to steer people towards practical fighting.

[Mr Punch]

I know I learned useful stuff because I was lucky enough to have teachers who were firmly based in reality... as LEOs, security... etc.

You may say I was the exception, and yes I usually would agree that the time spent/practicality ratio is usually horrible, but I was just trying to tell you your blanket statement about aikido not being based in reality is not based in reality!

The reason I'm studying something else now is that I moved to Japan where ironically most of the aiki I've found so far has been crap and way inferior to the style I was practising in the UK. If you want aiki as a martial art, this is no country to come to! If you want it for the philosophy, come on over!

Apart from the fact that I always cross-trained.

You obviously don't want it at all (! :D )- fair enough - but try to avoid making blanket statements like 'aikido is not based in reality' which is kind of on a par with 'BJJ/boxing is only useful as a sport', 'kungfu is too deadly for the ring' or other such pish.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by omarthefish
lol.

I had to read it twice before the irony hit me.

:D ;)