Iron training

[Shadow Skill]

During iron training you are not supposed to have sex because it depleates your energy. But what I want to know is how does your sifu know if you had sex or not?

If women iron train does having sex have the same effect on them?

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Sex can tire out the muscles of the legs and lower back. These are important muscles for structure and posture. If you can't hold these correctly then you will not train properly. I think this is the main reason that Sifu's tell people to refrain from sex during training.

[Shadow Skill]

my sifu told my when he was iron training his sifu made him start the 6 mo process all over because he had sex. With that being said is it possible to complete the training and have sex?


I also want to know what compels people to put their bodies through that type of punishment? For some reason I'm looking forward to starting.

[sayloc]

The main reason for not haveing sex while doing iron training is so you do not deplete your essence (jing).

When you undertake this kind of training your body takes a lot of punishment and it is imoportant that that you deplete your bodies store so that the body can heal itself.

Men lose essence through sex. Women lose it with their monthly cycle.

Why? Some guy a long time ago figured out how to train so he did not become injured from the average strike. Then the other guy figured out iron palm to beat the first guy. Who Knows.

You do need a qualified instructor to learn this. You can injure yourself in many different ways doing these types of training.

This was just a very, very basic overview. It gets much more in depth than this.

So you guys who also know this type of training, cut me a break.

OK?

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by sayloc
[B]The main reason for not haveing sex while doing iron training is so you do not deplete your essence (jing).

When you undertake this kind of training your body takes a lot of punishment and it is imoportant that that you deplete your bodies store so that the body can heal itself.

Men lose essence through sex. Women lose it with their monthly cycle.

This is called the doctrine of "vitalism" and is not scientifically based.

Main Entry: vi·tal·ism
Pronunciation: 'vI-t&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : a doctrine that the functions of a living organism are due to a vital principle distinct from physicochemical forces
2 : a doctrine that the processes of life are not explicable by the laws of physics and chemistry alone and that life is in some part self-determining

[sayloc]

Iron palm and iron body are not "scientifically based" either.

Now that I think about it, there is alot in Chines MA that is not "scientifically based".

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by sayloc
Iron palm and iron body are not "scientifically based" either.

Now that I think about it, there is alot in Chines MA that is not "scientifically based".

Right, they are based on a different metaphysics. However, that metaphysical system is outdated and is contrary to what we know by the branch of philosophy known as science. That branch investigates how the natural world (including the body) functions. Science has not discovered anything that would fit in with the Chinese concept of Jing. That is because Jing belongs to the philosophy of vitalism which was a imporant component of Chinese thought.

[tug]

Does masturbation have the same effect? I understand losing your "essence" to mean the ejaculate, not the result of having bodily sexual contact with another person.

[sayloc]

Sure tug. Just didnt want to be so graphic.

[tug]

Right, sorry, wasn't being facetious, just honestly curious.

[WinterPalm]

I believe the essence reason is correct. Too much sex, as my Sifu has said to me, is bad. Our training method is different and the restriction is not to have sex 24 hours before training. We only train Iron Palm every second day or so.
As to science, it cannot explain a lot, and that which it cannot, it makes up a dogma for others to believe. I would suggest you listen to your Sifu, regardless of his 'outdated' Kung Fu training methodologies. If he is healthy and a capable practioner of Kung Fu, then his methods must be quality. Or you can ignore the warnings of your Sifu and find out the hard way the ill effects of extreme conditioning done under improper training.:)

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
I I would suggest you listen to your Sifu, regardless of his 'outdated' Kung Fu training methodologies. If he is healthy and a capable practioner of Kung Fu, then his methods must be quality.

Or it could be that even due to the "extreme" nature of the training that he is healthy due to other genetic and environmental factors that have nothing to do with sex habits.

Science done properly would control for confounding factors like that. Anecdotal "evidence" does not.

I don't really care either way if people want to do something because they believe it will make them healthier. The "placebo effect" is an effect afterall and if you believe something will make you healthier then it just might (in this case with a lot of frustration.)

However, when you get into the CAUSATION of what makes one person healthier over another then I think science is more adequate than antiquated Chinese medical theories to describe that causation. And it is objectively verifiable.

Hence, the drive in "alternative" medicine to have certain practices validated by modern scientific means.

[WinterPalm]

But why not have 'modern scientific methods' validated by Chinese medical theory? Just because it was developed a long time ago does not negate its validity. I see a synthesis of both approaches in order to best understand the physical totality of a person and their health, but there are cultural reasons for doing things that have no ultimate goal. Such as chicken soup when you're sick, I'm sure it doesn't make you get well, but it boosts your spirit and warms you up. Science missies a lot when it refuses to consider anything outside of itself.

[sayloc]

Eric

You seem much smarter than me. I am convinced.

Now I can have sex during iron palm training!:)

Thanks for your input.

[Shadow Skill]

All this information is great but, in your openion why are people so compelled to iron training? I must admit I can't wait to start.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by sayloc
Eric

You seem much smarter than me. I am convinced.

Now I can have sex during iron palm training!:)

Thanks for your input.

Well my point wasn't to prove how smart I am.

My point is that science is the best methodology to understand how things work.

And it shouldn't be dismissed as some "modern contraption."

Its usefulness has been proven time and time again.

But don't take my word for it.

That computer that you are sitting in front of right now is proof positive that science works as a methodology.

Chinese medical theories were not validated by the scientific method.

So while they may work some of the time for some ailments (trial and error.) How they work is not explained scientifically but is rather explained by some philosophy like the I Ching or Five elements theory.

Even though they excelled at so many other things, for some reason the Chinese just never came up with a formal scientific methodology.

[Lowlynobody]

Have sex and then within the next 24 hours go do stance training like sit in horse for 30 minutes. See how your legs shake. Someone explain that to me?

[sayloc]

Eric

I do agree with you about the not coming up with a formal scientific method. For example the many Chinese medical,Qigong or Kung fu/Tai chi masters who teach the Chinese philosopy but still smoke. I dont understand that. It does not fit into thier Philosophy.

I do believe that if you live by the Chinese i Ching, 5 elements theory it can be a healthier life style.

But, just because we may not yet understand how their philosophy works (as scientific fact) may not mean it does not work or exist. Many people who use the computer have no idea how it works. They just know it works and that is all that matters.

If you do not believe in something that is not proven scientifically
How would someone 1000 years ago explain the weather? It is not constant, somtimes you have a harsh winter and some times a mild one. One day it may rain and another it may be sunny.
What about tornados? Now we know how it works.

Does this mean that the day before some thing was discovered that it did not exist?

I just try to keep an open mind.


Lowlynobody,

You may be weaker do to the fact that you have used up some of the nutrients and minerals that it takes your body to stand in the horse stance for 30 minutes. It may take time for your body to replenish. Or it could be you gave up your essence. Who knows? :)

[Becca]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
But why not have 'modern scientific methods' validated by Chinese medical theory? Just because it was developed a long time ago does not negate its validity. I see a synthesis of both approaches in order to best understand the physical totality of a person and their health, but there are cultural reasons for doing things that have no ultimate goal. Such as chicken soup when you're sick, I'm sure it doesn't make you get well, but it boosts your spirit and warms you up. Science missies a lot when it refuses to consider anything outside of itself.
Yes it does. There's a hormon in chiken meat that helps boost the human immune system. Also, there is quite a bit of research that prooves the soundness of comfort food while trying to recouperate.

But, on the other hand, there a a bum-load of "old wives' remedies" are being validated every day. Some fairly new ones? The drops the doc gives to put in your ears when you have an ear infection? It's based on the practice of putting sweet oil in the ear. And pediatricians are now recomending pepermint water for colicy babies- another very old home remedy.

[Lowlynobody]

You may be weaker do to the fact that you have used up some of the nutrients and minerals that it takes your body to stand in the horse stance for 30 minutes. It may take time for your body to replenish. Or it could be you gave up your essence. Who knows?

Possibly just two ways of saying the same thing.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Becca
Yes it does. There's a hormon in chiken meat that helps boost the human immune system. Also, there is quite a bit of research that prooves the soundness of comfort food while trying to recouperate. There are also lots of hormones pumped into chicken, which make women who eat a lot of it grow bigger boobs, which in turn, makes me feel good. So, I concur.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by sayloc
[B]Eric

But, just because we may not yet understand how their philosophy works (as scientific fact) may not mean it does not work or exist. Many people who use the computer have no idea how it works. They just know it works and that is all that matters.


I agree. There are going to be some Chinese remedies that work and some that don't. That is called the process of trial and error.
And quite obviously Chinese medicine has been around for so long that it has some things that work.

However, science seeks not only to understand how things work but how they WILL work in the future. It seeks to develop models of how things work that are then tested against empirical evidence. When some data doesn't fit the model then the model is adjusted accordingly.

Chinese medical theory doesn't follow this line of thought. They sought out a way to predict. But instead of developing a scientific method they took a pre-existing philosophical model (ie I Ching, Five Elements, Ying and Yang, other superstitions) and then tried to fit the existing data to that.

Some fits, some doesn't.

So while they're model may work at predicting some things it fails to be an accurate and consistent model of prediction.

So back to the original argument.

The prediction is "if you do Iron Body training + sex you will become ill."

But that prediction is not based on scientific investigation but rather anecdote and superstition.

If you wish to believe that...to each his own.

However, I remain skeptical.

Peace.

:D

[sayloc]

Eric

I have to agree that I am not sure how much having sex during iron body or iron palm will hurt if any.

I have done iron palm and did not change my habits as far as sex. I feel it did not hurt .

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
Have sex and then within the next 24 hours go do stance training like sit in horse for 30 minutes. See how your legs shake. Someone explain that to me?

If you can normally hold your stance for 30 min (which is difficult in and of itself) and now you are getting shaking then you have probably fatigued the muscles in the legs and pelvic region during sex that are necessary for holding your stance.

That's the simplest explanation.


;)

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by sayloc
Eric

I have to agree that I am not sure how much having sex during iron body or iron palm will hurt if any.

I have done iron palm and did not change my habits as far as sex. I feel it did not hurt .

:cool:

[Lowlynobody]

Ai Lek Ou Seun - that is actually quite a nice logical explanation considering the way we perform our stances with the a$$ tucked in and knowing what muscles that engages.

I think the whole deal with having sex is your body then has to replace what was lost and thus uses energy to do so. Possibly why you feel like sleeping after sex? Thus (possibly) detracting from healing yourself from small injuries doing iron palm etc. This is taoist thinking I think.

I should say I have been doing iron palm constantly for 3 years or more and haven't changed my habbits.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
Right, they are based on a different metaphysics. However, that metaphysical system is outdated and is contrary to what we know by the branch of philosophy known as science. That branch investigates how the natural world (including the body) functions. Science has not discovered anything that would fit in with the Chinese concept of Jing. That is because Jing belongs to the philosophy of vitalism which was a imporant component of Chinese thought.

that is just not true. It's more case of no-one wants to acknowledge it . If you look at recent nanotechnology research, you may or not become somewhat clearer.



Interesting perspectives on the sex thing , but the general rule is 40 days abstinence. I've left shifus in past because they were having sex at times i wasn't and couldn't demonstrate when I wanted to learn. It could be biological but because in iron body there invloves an element of meditational thought and yijing, your dantien and concentration centre becomes a factor. If you are anywhat souly attatched ( for all its esoterisism ) to anything at all external, it's going to effect your concentration at deep lvls min.

Why do it?? 'cause you can .

[Buddy]

"I've left shifus in past because they were having sex at times i wasn't and couldn't demonstrate when I wanted to learn."

But you learned all your kung fu from your man in the temple. Oh what a tangled web we weave...