More Chi Sao Notes.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Free Style Chi Sao: This type of chi sao is sometimes misunderstood. When playing this version of chi sao, some people use too much force when trying an entry attack, just thinking that it’s another way or version to fight in the wing chun system, therefore, forgetting or dropping their structure making their defense very weak. Always keep good structure when playing chi sao. Even when your partner starts to use too much force, when his action and structure seems wild. You must break the phoon sao structure and start all over again, to keep from deviating from the right path of softness. When your structure is bad, you will have to force the defensive and offensive line, to make them work for you.
Losing your softness will make you waste a lot of time, on developing sensitivity and true chi sao alertness. Sometimes you will have to supplement your partner’s actions when playing chi sao, for structure sake. If your partner seems to have a hard time understanding these concepts and becomes tense and rigid, you must maintain softness and structure to serve as an example for your chi sao partner, and at the same time you can develop the muscles that your body use’s for the phoon sao structure or 360 cycle.
Always use good timing: don’t take a guess on if, your attack will land or not, be patient and wait for the right offensive line and take it. Don’t hesitate, when hesitating your partner will feel your intent, and will jump all over it. Don’t drop your elbow before making an attack; this will hurt your defensive structure and make you very vulnerable for pins and traps. Don’t force a technique that is not there, this will throw your whole structure off balance. Never go from soft to hard, out of the phoon sao cycle, for that is a dead giveaway of intent. These are also tips on what to look for while developing your timing against your chi sao partner.
Always use forward sensitivity by slightly pushing and wedging the elbows forward and by rounding the shoulder blades, this way you are able to keep good defensive sensitivity, knowing right away on what line to take. Therefore never hesitating, you will hit your target at will, by walking the lines at bridge contact, and keeping him from having a defensive phoon sao structure, you can easily develop a high level timing this way. First always use the correct line that your phoon sao structure dictates as a clean opening, for an attack on you chi sao partner, to make the concepts work mention above.
Stay with what comes and follow what goes: When understanding this concept it will take the struggle out of your technique. To stay with what comes, is too use good forward energy, meaning that the elbow does not retract backwards, not even a quarter of an inch from the beginning or starting position of your phoon structure. If your elbow does move backwards, it gives your chi sao partner a better chance to find an open line of an attack, and even a pin or a trap.

To follow what goes mean too follow the attacking hand back too it’s original starting position, too hit or bang on the mother line, too get and keep your opponent off balance.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Good post.
The hardest thing to learn in Wing Chun is to be "soft". And,to be soft,you need to learn to be flexible not only in body or technique,but in mind also.

[Tydive]

Ali,

Interesting stuff. How about a Push hands vs Sticky hands analysis? The major difference seems to be that in Tai Chi the goal is to have as little pressure as possible (fly can't land etc...) vs in Chi Sao you want to maintain greater pressure at the contact points. But other than that it sounds like the same kind of exercise. Am I over simplifing?

[YongChun]

I have experienced some good Tai Chi and some good Wing Chun. The good people can use different types of pressure from the 4 ounce touch to the heavy relaxed arms approach to the brick wall immoveable arms approach. They have the complete spectrum and use it according to the situation. In the Tai Chi I did, there was a lot of elbow movement compared to the versions of Wing Chun I am familiar with. Both arts had the relaxation, stickiness, no force against force and searching for the center idea. The mechanics of Tai Chi seems to blend better with throwing and locking. The WingChun mechanics seem to blend better with efficient hitting. But Tai Chi also has short range power and simultaneous attack and defense or linked attack and defense. It's possible to mix Tai Chi and Wing Chun together. I found it takes a higher level of skill to mix Tai Chi with Wing Chun than to mix Wing Chun into Tai Chi. That means it's easier to punch someone in Tai Chi than to joint lock or throw somebody in Wing Chun. Tai Chi seems to have a larger variety of responses although in a Wing Chun person's mind they would discard a lot of those as not being practical or at least wasteful in movement and uses of energy. That's my very simplistic view. People good in each art have a very strong core and are a good match for each other.

[old jong]

Ali is also talking about a very important point: Follow the principles and don't show intents.
All of this is not easy to achieve when Wing Chun is understood as "technique vs technique" or as a power struggle.

[Gangsterfist]

Tui sao (push hands) and chi sao are very very very similar. In my kwoon we study yang taiji with our wing chun. We practice the short form, long form, sword form, push hands, theory and application, ect.

The major difference I notice is that taiji doesn't use strict centerline theory. It will still use body structure you misalign your opponets spine and throw them off, it just does it in a different manner. In chi sao you want to usually apply equal force with both hands, where in tui sao you use yin yang, one hand dominate, the other recessive and so forth. Also, in tui sao you will find more circular motions. To dumb it down, chi sao is always drilling straight into the opponet's center, taiji will go around to get to the center if need be.

Its really hard to explain this, I would really have to show you hands on the differences, and the similarities.

IMHO, taiji can definately improve your wing chun, and improve the "softness" mentioned above. Before Ernie chimes in, just to clarify softness, it does not mean lax like a wet noodle. It means using minimum dynamic tension and body structure to accomplish something.

[Vajramusti]

Ray- IMO- different platforms- but wing chun chi sao when well done can smoothly flow into throwing and locking when the opening is there.
Matter of timing.
And good wing chun development can also "fajing".

For single hand control in motion- in locking and throwing see:
video clip at:

http://www.fongswingchun.com/multimedia.html

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thanks Joy! I'm the first too say, that Fong is the best that I ever seen.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Tydive]

Gangsterfist. Got it. I can understand what you are saying... having not done Chi Sao I was having a hard time seeing the difference. But the straight vs circle thing brings it home. I can see that I will have to empty my cup quite a bit to adapt to Chi Sao.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old Jong Said:

Ali is also talking about a very important point: Follow the principles and don't show intents. All of this is not easy to achieve when Wing Chun is understood as "technique vs technique" or as a power struggle.

That’s true Old Jong, some people never learn how too stay soft. Thinking that chi sao is too develop fighting techniques, never focusing on the phoon sao cycle for good defense.
They only have defense when the phoon sao structure is loss or disconnected making them self’s catch up to the opponent’s offense. This is bad, because it puts you in the defensive position right away, rather then attacking the attack with a good defensive phoon sao structure, making your attacks small and short no big movements. With good chi sao, you must stop the attack from even happening. If your chi sao is really good, your opponent will never have a chances too have any offensive structure, let alone throw a punch or strike.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

I couldn't agree more Ali!
This is why I have my students do a lot of Poon Sau without any attacks,stepping and moving around for periods of times.The quality in sticking and footwork gained is very much noticable in Chi Sau exchanges and sparring after.

You have a PM BTW!... ;)

[sihing]

When I first started learning chi-sao, the instructor had us practice solo in the mirror just to develop the proper structure and endurance for a few weeks. Slow deliberate Poon Sao is done allot in my school, because we like to develop a strong forward intention in all aspects of our fighting, in the arms, legs and whole body. I believe this helps in the realm of self defense as it teaches good structure and maintaining it throughout random movements and energy fluctuations in the opponent’s structure. Then when other movements are incorporated in the Dbl arm Chi-sao the forward intention and proper structure has to be maintained otherwise you would give an opening to your partner to take advantage of.

Chi-sao is ultimately a drill only! It should always be looked at that way and is only there to develop attributes which help in practical self defense, and not be the end all be all of WC combat.


James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old jong your students will become very deadly from the methods that you are teaching. They are blessed to have you as their sifu. I do teach the same way, far as chi sao. Man you really got your sh*t together. I guess when it's coming from the Ho Kam Ming family, you get it right the first time. Keep up the good work.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

You must work defensively with good phoon sao structure first, not offensively off the phoon sao cycle, for you won’t have any defense down the line, no matter how good it looks. You must learn how too keep the attack from unfolding. If you break the phoon sao structure too defend while your opponent is attacking. That is very poor chi sao, more or less a drill, technique vs. technique not sticky hands vs. sticky hands, and more or less a waste of time.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[couch]

Sihing wrote:

"Chi-sao is ultimately a drill only! It should always be looked at that way and is only there to develop attributes which help in practical self defense, and not be the end all be all of WC combat."

Firstly, James this is not an attack...just a discussion. Cool.

I think there are various ways of performing Chi Sao and what it means to many clubs. The way/reason some clubs perform Chi Sao is to develop sensitivity training and to force a person to take control of an "in-your-face" situation. Because of lineage, it is hard to discuss Chi Sao, I feel.

I don't feel that Chi Sao is a drill only. I know that it's not fighting, because (as the topic has been beaten to death on this forum) sparring isn't fighting, but I feel that the way I Chi Sao...it's preparing me for combat. I'm inches away from my opponent, shifting, moving, punching to elbow ranges, etc. It gets me comfortable in the real fighting range (unlike the bouncing kicking tae kwon do range).

Chi Sao teaches me to relax and that when my force is met by another force to stop and let that energy go. It teaches me how to deal and manipulate energy not directed at my centre. Therefore it is aiding me to overcome anything on the street.

Chi Sao then turns into Gor Sau, which is when you aren't touching and an attacker comes in. This helps bridge that gap.

I really think it's all there in the forms and it comes out in practicality in the Chi Sao.

My 2 cents. Good article on your Sifu by the way.

Sincerely,
Couch

[sihing]

Don't worry Kenton, everything’s cool and yes this is a discussion.
Chi-sao teaches lots of things, but the essence is to develop in us attributes that help us in combat. What I try to do when I teach is to show or explain to the student how to apply it in combat or when the attribute gained from chi-sao is being used in combat. Like the example of fishing, the skilled fisherman does not see the bait being taken by the fish but feels the vibration of the bite through the fishing rod, same happens in fighting. Once contact is made the opponents intentions can be felt and interpreted, this will then allow us as WC practitioners to apply the appropriate movements in the right time frame and efficiently. Chi-sao develops this ability. But I still believe this is only a part of the whole. There are many other things that have to be done and learned/absorbed to complete the process and develop an effective WC practitioner.

Your right in your point on talking about the specifics of chi-sao because of the differences between lineages and such. This would be a more practical thing to do in person so that we all could just touch hands and feel it that way, while explaining the principals behind the concepts and techniques, but there are times when you become more experienced when you just know that what someone may be doing in chi-sao just wouldn't work against someone else. For example on one of the Emin Boztepe tapes he is rolling with someone and he keeps on elbow rolling the guy(from tan to bong he raises his elbow and rolls over the fok sao to then slap him in the face), but he didn't use any footwork and stayed square on with the guy. Well if this other guy had forward intention then this would not work, regardless of the skill or speed in which the person tries to execute it. We use a movement similar but is done with footwork(exchange step or t-step) and is much harder to counter. Plus IMO his Poon Sao in too loose and the circle is too large, giving away too many openings. The circle rotation in Poon Sao should get tighter and smaller as one gets more experienced with it, making it hard to attack the center or any part of the persons body.

Thanks for the compliment on the article, I too thought it was a good one on Sifu.


James

[AndrewS]

'Sihing' writes :

>For example on one of the Emin Boztepe tapes he is rolling with someone and he keeps on elbow rolling the guy(from tan to bong he raises his elbow and rolls over the fok sao to then slap him in the face), but he didn't use any footwork and stayed square on with the guy. Well if this other guy had forward intention then this would not work, regardless of the skill or speed in which the person tries to execute it. We use a movement similar but is done with footwork(exchange step or t-step) and is much harder to counter. Plus IMO his Poon Sao in too loose and the circle is too large, giving away too many openings. The circle rotation in Poon Sao should get tighter and smaller as one gets more experienced with it, making it hard to attack the center or any part of the persons body.


You are correct in observing that that rollover is a response to an absence of forward pressure, presence of downward pressure or presence of crossing pressure. As with anything, its use is matter of relative skill, just as forward pressure exists in degrees.

As to sifu Emin's roll- interesting opinion. My observation has been that he uses exactly enough motion to cover himself relative to the person he's working with, and can show you how and why he does everything. Getting too focused on the center-tightening everything down- is a way to game a certain limited portion of chi sao, easily destroyed. If you think you see holes in this approach, look again. You're missing something. I know; I've tried very hard to find them.

Later,

Andrew

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ali:

really good point in your opening statement, and I think what you're describing fundamentally ( whatever style you're using it to demonstrate with) is that technique over strength is a wise tactic, and the strength is by no means the winning factor.

thx for the reiteration.

EgoE

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Ali:

really good point in your opening statement, and I think what you're describing fundamentally ( whatever style you're using it to demonstrate with) is that technique over strength is a wise tactic, and the strength is by no means the winning factor.

thx for the reiteration.

EgoE


Anytime, and you understood well what I was saying. Thank you for your input.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Old jong your students will become very deadly from the methods that you are teaching. They are blessed to have you as their sifu. I do teach the same way, far as chi sao. Man you really got your sh*t together. I guess when it's coming from the Ho Kam Ming family, you get it right the first time. Keep up the good work.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Thanks Ali.
I appreciate the compliment.I am just doing my best in giving back what was given to me.Im know you do the same for your students.
All the best.

Ali....Check your PM box!...;)

[Matrix]

Old jong your students will become very deadly from the methods that you are teaching. They are blessed to have you as their sifu. I do teach the same way, far as chi sao. Man you really got your sh*t together. As someone who has met Old Jong and trained with several of his students, I can tell you that they are indeed lucky. He's a great person and teacher.
:cool:

[sihing]

AndrewS,

First my observations on Emin's rolling style was not an attack on him in anyway, I believe he is very skilled in his WT, and is a skilled fighter also generally, so I hope that is not what you thought I was doing. He seems to be a natural at it and is/was obviously interested in that whole scene.

As for the rolling (Poon sao) thing, for example the way I roll, my Fok Sao elbow will never move. In SLT the fok sao wrist is chin height and the inner elbow is on the centerline, approx. a 45deg angle is formed (same for Tan). When rolling the angle will change from about a 30 deg to 80-85deg angle to accommodate the partners bong sao/tan sao rotation, the wrist will sort of form a "C" formation, but the elbow will remain in the same position so that there are no openings, so if the partner in tan sao were to just strike the elbow placement would deflect it anyways with no movement required by the fok sao arm. As for Tan Sao, in SLT the Tan palm is face height (covering your face in the mirror) and like fok at a 45deg angle, the elbow is the distance of the extended thumb and pinky finger away from the solar plexus, again with the inner elbow on the centerline. Bong Sao hand is same distance away as Tan, with the wrist down the centerline, and upper wrist chin height, elbow slightly above shoulder level, with this position never being compromised. In the beginning the practitioners roll in a large circle to get the feel for the movement and as they increase in skill with it the circle is smaller and tighter making it harder to get anything in, so I would have to disagree with you Andrew when you say it is easily defeated. The forward pressure/intention is constant and not fluctuating as this would be the opening for the partner's forward intention to come through. I have found that when proper forward intention is gained by the practitioner through the yrs of training that it is extremely hard to penetrate and land a solid attack of any kind. This forward intention principal is transcended to non contact stages and is always there within the practitioner’s arms and entire body. This allows us to attack with little non telegraphic movement sorta like what Bruce said, "I do not attack, it attacks by it self".


James

[old jong]

Originally posted by Matrix
As someone who has met Old Jong and trained with several of his students, I can tell you that they are indeed lucky. He's a great person and teacher.
:cool:

Thanks for the compliment Bill. Sincerely. Feel free to drop by at my school anytimes you are in Montreal. You will be the most welcome.