How long to get good?

[YongChun]

I have trained Yang style Tai Chi and Wing Chun and before that some Karate and Hung style. I am wondering what members of this forum think is the amount of time required before you can be considered good and able to apply your Tai Chi. I know apply is a vague notion that can't easily be defined. So whatever definition you have is fine for this discussion.

In Karate the standard blackbelt level is maybe 5 years although some have done it in 6 months (like Joe Lewis) and some will never achieve that. In Wing Chun the marketing line used to be that it is the quickest art to learn but to me it takes as long as anything else if you want to achieve the levels of Chen Xiaowang. Further more the Wing Chun chain schools seem to stretch the teaching out to 10 or 15 years with large numbers of levels. With the smaller schools you tend to have a teacher and a couple of students, no curriculum and no rankings. You just train and train all your life and maybe at some point you are considered by others as being good.

I don't know how long Chen Xiaowang took before he was considered a master and he may have been a good fighter long before that? Of course there is no limit to improvement as well. The good people seem to always change and improve.

To me you could fight with Tai Chi as quick as with any other art like Karate or Wing Chun but the quality would not be high or maybe couldn't even be considered as Internal Tai Chi. Perhaps just the external form of the art can be quickly learned but then that is not real Tai Chi.

Maybe this is a pointless question that doesn't have an answer. It is not meant as the typical beginner type of question : When am I going to get my black belt. The topic arises more from a comparison between fightings arts like Thai boxing, Brazillian Jujitsu, Aikido, etc. Of course the length of time doesn't matter. In my mind it doesn't because what's the rush? To me the enjoyment comes from the trip or the process of learning. A vacation is not just to get to the end point and ignore everything else in between.

[froggy]

"Maybe this is a pointless question that doesn't have an answer. It is not meant as the typical beginner type of question : When am I going to get my black belt. The topic arises more from a comparison between fightings arts like Thai boxing, Brazillian Jujitsu, Aikido, etc. Of course the length of time doesn't matter. In my mind it doesn't because what's the rush? To me the enjoyment comes from the trip or the process of learning. A vacation is not just to get to the end point and ignore everything else in between."

why do you even ask then? are you a post *****?

the answer for you is that it will take you 1 millions years. if you question that, then 2 million.

I should come down to Victoria to show you how it's done, boy!!!

[YongChun]

Actually it was a serious question. I practice Tai Chi regularly and learned from Raymond Chung in Vancouver. However it's difficult to pose these kinds of questions without someone getting the wrong idea or thinking something. When I trained under Raymond Chung they said the normal training was three years of form, then three years of pushing hands, then three years of Tai Chi applications. After that the applications become more and more random until Tai Chi is more or less completely freestyle. So that would be my answer to the question. However I trained in the 1970's and maybe the training is different these days for Yang style. The training under Raymond Chung was different than how he learned as well. The early students of Raymond Chung were mostly out of Judo. These people ended up being very good at Tai Chi and were able to use it for fighting. The later generation of students with exceptions of course were almost like the Hippie generation and didn't care much about combat application. If I am not mistaken, Sam Masich also did some training with master Raymond Chung. Douglas Lee was a Raymond Chung student who produced a book on Tai Chi. He was also pretty good.

So I guess I was asking what the normal Tai Chi curriculum is these days and if my model for Tai Chi learning is still a good one?

When I learned going three times a week or so we covered the 108 form, pushing hands, the sword and applications form in about a five year period and then would start the mixed applications about then. My group never achieved the results of the earlier generation who trained much much and had the Judo background. However not all of the good people had a Judo background.

I visited Raymond Chung about two years ago and he was still active in the art. I think he was in his early 80's then.

[Buddy]

YC,
The difference is the body method. If you fight with another body method it's not Taiji. Judo people do not use the same body method at all. Wing Chun uses an entirely different method as well. It's just different.

[YongChun]

Actually my post comes because of a big heated debate somewhere else where people were saying that you should be able to train any Kung Fu style quickly and be effective. However I argue that classical arts take time like trying to be a concert pianist. If you don't take the time then the risk is that you would just be a kickboxer without the real skills of the art. So for Tai Chi I think the process cannot be rushed.

I realize that the body structure and the mechanics and internal mechanisms for Tai Chi and for example Wing Chun are very different. You cannot mix the two. However I wasn't discussing that.

In Hung style which I studied the standard was something like ten years of drilling and form work before the student could do a decent job to start learning free style fighting.

I have heard that ten years of Tai Chi combined with three years of Hsing I produces a very top notch fighter. But that statement came from a Preying Mantis master and not a Tai Chi master.

In the 1980's I met William C.C. Chen in New York and thought he was very good. He was very friendly and informative also to explain carefully his theories. Unfortunately I haven't had the honor of meeting Chen XiaoWang.

Ray

[FngSaiYuk]

One of the things to consider is the total amount of time someone trains. If you train 8 hours a day, 6 days a week 50 weeks a year, then you'll have considerably more training time under your belt than one who trains 2 hours a day, 3 days a week, 40 weeks out of the year.

Most of the 'good' fighters have dedicated considerably more training time than your typical hobby MAist. If you want to get 'good' then you just train as often and as effectively as you can.

Now as far as the various styles out there- I think one of the most important things in learning a style and getting 'good' is the communication between the teacher and the student. If a teacher can communicate to the student such that the student 'gets' it rather quickly, and the student also dedicates considerable training time, then this should result in getting 'good' rather quickly.

Finally the differences in styles- some styles have fewer techniques to train and so can dedicate a LOT more training time to practicing and conditioning. Other styles have a larger pool of basic techniques and yet others have complexities beyond the basics.

Logically you could consider that the styles with the larger pool of basic techniques and greater complexities beyond the basics, will require better communication between the teacher and the student as well as more dedicated training time to practice and condition. Out of all the styles then, I'd have to say that basic western boxing would produce a 'good' fighter (not necessarily well rounded) given the same amount of training time.

[SPJ]

It is a very good analogy between KF study and piano lessons.

The motivation behind the statement that you may learn KF in a short time is to encourage more students to study.

Once you are basically "hooked", you would know that it would take more time to perfect your "basic" learning and wait! They are only the beginning. There are more and more to study.

I heard some people had to stand on Ma Bu for several years before any other KF study. That is the "old" way or the only way?

All the body mechanics and how to generate power internally are actually the things that take time to practice and develop as Buddy pointed out.

And they are your Gong Fu.

Techniques wise will be "easier", once your basic Gong or foundation is good.

Practice, practice and practice.

When you are good, you know you are good.

After that, you still practice, practice and practice.

How long? As long as you need to. After that, you still practice daily.

:)

[YongChun]

Thank you all for the feedback.

Ray

[Ray Pina]

How much you put into it .... how smart you are .... how much ability you have .... how long it takes.

[Brad]

Yup. Some people will be able to start figuring things out in just a few months, while others will never get beyond the basics. There's no garauntees. It's just a combination of how talented you are physically and mentally, how good of a teacher you have, and how much effort you put into it. The "best" people out there seem to just enjoy what they're doing, and focus on constant improvement rather than setting any kind of end goal(like a blackbelt).