View Full Version : What is a Wing Chun Tan Sau?
yellowpikachu
10-12-2004, 05:56 PM
What is a Wing Chun Tan Sau?
since the ancient down to today, numerous Localization Evolution have and are taking place.
What is a Wing Chun Tan Sau at 1850 on board of the Red Junk? and what is a wing chun Tan sau today?
It is a hand which is twist flip forward to become the palm facing the sky similar to the Fujian's white Crane water shape hand type?
Is it the mighty Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng, which it will be great to have an illustration what is it like?
It is just a Palm up hand extended facing the sky?
It is a Palm up facing one's face similar to the Hung Gar's beauty shine herself at the mirror?
It is an side outward block similar to some Shao lin hard style or Karate?
It is a sickle which cut?
It is a hook?
It is a ........
What do you think ?
_______________________________________
PS:
Democratic sharing and reasoning is welcome.
For trolling or political or personal attack post please post somewhere else.
For me it's a drill. As in "power drill", not "to perform a drill". It's spiralling with forward intent and easily transitions into a strike or grab.
Phil Redmond
10-12-2004, 10:53 PM
Tan spreads/disperses an oncoming force.
best description i ever heard of a Tan Sau was a story about GM Moy Yat in a discussion with various masters of WCK. They went off on long detailed descriptions of the structure and energy, one longer than the last, and at last Moy Yat went up and flipped open a fan and then sat down. disperse the energy.
Jim Roselando
10-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Hello,
According to Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo village a Tan Sao does not go forward! It cuts back and spread them open! If Tan is Yin then the punch is Yang!
When the Tan goes forward it does not disperse or spread open. It acts more like a wedge going forward! That s not Tan according to Leung Jan.
Regards,
Phil Redmond
10-13-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,
According to Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo village a Tan Sao does not go forward! It cuts back and spread them open! If Tan is Yin then the punch is Yang!
When the Tan goes forward it does not disperse or spread open. It acts more like a wedge going forward! That s not Tan according to Leung Jan.
Regards,
I can't speakd for Leung Jan but one thing I know for sure is that the Chinese character for 'tan' means to spread or disperse. ;)
Phil
reneritchie
10-13-2004, 02:01 PM
1. Humans have arms
2. Humans have the desire to hit other humans in the face
3. Humans will use (1) to prevent (2) whenever possible
4. Over time, (3) will evolve into one or several optimal methods to counter developments of those using (1) to achieve (2).
Tan Sao is one such animule.
Jim Roselando
10-13-2004, 02:21 PM
Hiya RR,
1. Humans have arms
2. Humans have the desire to hit other humans in the face
3. Humans will use (1) to prevent (2) whenever possible
4. Over time, (3) will evolve into one or several optimal methods to counter developments of those using (1) to achieve (2).
Tan Sao is one such animule.
Excellent point and I totally agree with you! When WCK evlove into WCK the Tan was developed for the above reasons you listed but once something change or evolve so much we must come up with a new term for the move if its changed so much as its not that move anymore. It may just be a Wolf (different move) in Sheeps (Tan) clothing! I learned that term/description from you when you discuss Tan stopping Hook and state: Lan in Tan clothing! hehe
:D
Gotta run!
reneritchie
10-13-2004, 02:33 PM
Jim, bro, you had me at 'excellent...'
YongChun
10-13-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,
According to Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo village a Tan Sao does not go forward! It cuts back and spread them open! If Tan is Yin then the punch is Yang!
When the Tan goes forward it does not disperse or spread open. It acts more like a wedge going forward! That s not Tan according to Leung Jan.
Regards,
A lot of years ago I was talking with Chung Kwok Chow about the SLT. In the conversation we were saying for all we know the ancients may have been trying to deceive us because in the SLT the Wu sau goes backwards but in some usage it goes forwards. Likewise the Fook sau in the SLT goes forwards but in some usage it goes backwards. Again for the Tan sau described above it goes backwards but in the form it goes forwards. So perhaps everything needs to be reversed back to it's original form? Ever try to do the SLT backwards? It's a great mental challenge.
reneritchie
10-13-2004, 05:24 PM
Both the extending and contracting Wu Sao are already in the sets, same for Tan Sao, and other arms, and other variations.
YongChun
10-13-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie
Both the extending and contracting Wu Sao are already in the sets, same for Tan Sao, and other arms, and other variations.
True enough. In our SLT the Wu comes in but in our Chum Kiu it goes out.
yellowpikachu
10-13-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by YongChun
In the conversation we were saying for all we know the ancients may have been trying to deceive us because in the SLT the Wu sau goes backwards but in some usage it goes forwards. Likewise the Fook sau in the SLT goes forwards but in some usage it goes backwards. Again for the Tan sau described above it goes backwards but in the form it goes forwards. So perhaps everything needs to be reversed back to it's original form? Ever try to do the SLT backwards? It's a great mental challenge.
Ray,
Thus, I have heard.
According to the YIK Kam preserved SLT Kuen Kuit, that forward "fook Sau and Wu Sau as people called today" both has other names.
The forward extending palm up... is also not a Tan Sau according to Yik Kam's preserve Kuit.
Things are pretty specific in Yik Kam's kuit.
Some how, dont know why things Evolve into today's situation. Even within Cho family.
PS:
One needs to have a MDX model to see what is what. :D
YongChun
10-13-2004, 11:08 PM
It's always interesting to look at the roots of this art. Wang Kiu always talked about people mixing up terminology like Tan sau and Kwun sau etc. but never clarified it either, at least for me. Also he complained about the translation of Siu Nim Tao as being the Little Idea form as being wrong and of Biu Jee being thrusting fingers as also being wrong. But now him and Leung Ting seem to be getting along so maybe Leung Ting will write about all that stuff.
Ray
Tom Kagan
10-14-2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by KFD
best description i ever heard of a Tan Sau was a story about GM Moy Yat in a discussion with various masters of WCK. They went off on long detailed descriptions of the structure and energy, one longer than the last, and at last Moy Yat went up and flipped open a fan and then sat down. disperse the energy.
No, he didn't mean "disperse the energy." He meant "that was a lot of hot air. I need a fan."
:D:D
They all would rag on each other all the time and they all enjoyed (and, on occasion, got annoyed) at the banter. There isn't a heck of a lot of need to read anything more into it.
History does not repeat itself. Historians do. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23515&highlight=TanSao)
Vajramusti
10-14-2004, 04:36 PM
Passing quibbles.
Old issue with me any way---dictionary definitions dont mecessarily capture meaning of motions. ((Runny nose does not mean that the nose is running) Spreading palms, dispersing may be nay be not. Details again. What is spreading.
In which direction? With reference to what.
Koo Loo folks have their own interpretation- how much of that captures the totality of Leung Jan? Difficult to say.Different opinions.
palm up may not capture the full meaning... but like bong sao or fuk sao---the meaning is in the details- not in the label.
Forward, backward, up down. outward-inward? Which tan- first part of slt, different sections of chum kiu, tan on the jong. tan with the do, tan with the kwan., tan in chi sao.. development? Application?...
The importance of context and again the devil in the details.
Jim Roselando
10-15-2004, 07:42 AM
Hey Joy,
Koo Loo folks have their own interpretation- how much of that captures the totality of Leung Jan? Difficult to say.Different opinions.
***
Its not about capturing or owning Leung Jan but rather passing/sharing information! His own words according to his disciples in Koo Lo. Yet! You never know if its true or not but unfortunately there is little to no info. on LJ around now a days. Hence why I share it! So, the best thing to do is to share the info. and compare it with how others (lineages from LJ, YKS, Yik Kam, etc.) preserve the same thing. Seeing Hendrik I can see LJ's Tan is the same as Yik Kam's Tan. Both slice back and out. Not sure about YKS! Rene would need to chime in on that?
The forward pressing Tan looking hand shape was not a Tan back in the day! More likely should be added to that sentence! hehe Maybe because its basically the same hand shape someone thought it would be easier to just call it by the same name for simplicity but that is just a possible theory and not something that is known for sure!
Who knows?
:confused:
Vajramusti
10-17-2004, 10:05 AM
Jim- I always appreciate your sharing specially the Koo Lo perspectives.
My points generally are that more traceable perspectives on any of the greats- the better.
Tan is more than a shape--- I generally don't just depend on verbal labels to understand a motion.
Thanks, Joy
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