End All Be All Styles

[shirkers1]

I don’t know if this is just a rant or a question, take it how you will. But this goes out to those of you who feel the need to tear down other styles, etc. You take a single tactic that you see someone do in a video or whatever and even though the tactic or drill is part of a huge picture you judge a whole system on it. Not to mention it’s the man more than the style that will determine a good fighter. To me this is common sense and apparently others don’t have this view, which I find very ignorant. But that’s fine you can have your views I’m not going to degrade you on some board on the web. I’ll just keep doing what I do like I always have. Bottom line the things you say on these boards would not be said to my face without a verbal or physical response that you wouldn’t be too happy with.

For example two man partner drills as of recently have been brought out to be useless and un practical in the videos displayed. Now I myself have seen drills that yes need some fine tuning. Distancing, etc. but I'm not going to judge that style on that one single video I saw.

Many questions follow as to what the drills are for, etc. When you begin to defend yourself verbally and explain that this is how you start the training to get the mechanics, then you move to a more broken rhythm, free form training of the tactic. They still keep saying the same things. Example: It’s useless, no resistance, you know what’s going to happen, it’s not practical, can’t do that in a real fight. Even though you say eventually you get to that point in the training but you have to start somewhere to learn the mechanics before they start to judge. They still don’t get the point.

I’m sorry but this whole modern grappling “fad” is getting old. It has it’s uses but it’s not the ultimate fighting art. It’s mostly because of these kids out there who sit around all weekend watching UFC and thinking they can wipe the floor with anyone who trains a traditional MA because their “sport” is built around rules that suit their style of fighting. Yes there are some really bad practitioners out there, and styles for that matter. But no style is the end all be all, we pick what suits us and we train. Just because you beat a guy in one style doesn’t mean that someone else in that style will not come along and make you wish you weren’t born.

It’s always the same argument, you can’t use that in a fight blah blah blah. One reason that they bring up is that you’re not training the tactic in a real fight environment. Well let me ask you, do the people who train ground grappling train out on the concrete, gravel, or do they train on a mat? Do they do all of these take you to the ground techniques in a controlled environment? In order to practice an individual take down or other tactic you have to drill that tactic right? So what is the difference between that and a drill that you’re doing while standing up moving on your feet? I don’t see anything different other than the tactic itself. NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground. BUT your ground tactic isn’t going to work standing on your feet either. So the argument goes both ways. Every tactic has a purpose and there is a time and place for that tactic. So the phrase “I’d like to see you use that against a ground fighter” has no merit. I throw that question back at you “well I’d like to see you mount me when I’m not on the ground and moving”. You can come close but unless you are wanting to hurt your training partner you are never going to be able to train a real fighting situation period.

What does the modern ground fighter have in his arsenal to deal with the opponent that they can’t get a hold of?

mark

[SevenStar]

the mma vs tma thing is older than dirt, but since you brought it up...


Originally posted by shirkers1
Many questions follow as to what the drills are for, etc. When you begin to defend yourself verbally and explain that this is how you start the training to get the mechanics, then you move to a more broken rhythm, free form training of the tactic. They still keep saying the same things. Example: It’s useless, no resistance, you know what’s going to happen, it’s not practical, can’t do that in a real fight. Even though you say eventually you get to that point in the training but you have to start somewhere to learn the mechanics before they start to judge. They still don’t get the point.

most of us understand that just fine. However, in our opinion, that is flawed. training the mechanics is great - do that during the first part of class. During the second part, drill it. WHile you are drilling, the instructor gives corrections. during the next part of class, you may drill it more free form. Your form doesn't have to be picture perfect before you begin to drill it. By spending months getting the mechanics, then months drilling with no resistance, followed my months of no resistance, but with broken rhythm, etc. you have wasted alot of time. That is why we say that you will learn faster with our approach.

I’m sorry but this whole modern grappling “fad” is getting old.

grappling hasn't been a fad since about 1997...


It has it’s uses but it’s not the ultimate fighting art.

we know that. that's why we crosstrain.

It’s mostly because of these kids out there who sit around all weekend watching UFC and thinking they can wipe the floor with anyone who trains a traditional MA because their “sport” is built around rules that suit their style of fighting.

how is that any different from the guys who say "all you have to do to defend a double leg is root or sidestep" and that they don't compete because "most of their lethal techniques are outlawed"?


Yes there are some really bad practitioners out there, and styles for that matter. But no style is the end all be all, we pick what suits us and we train. Just because you beat a guy in one style doesn’t mean that someone else in that style will not come along and make you wish you weren’t born.

that is true.

It’s always the same argument, you can’t use that in a fight blah blah blah. One reason that they bring up is that you’re not training the tactic in a real fight environment. Well let me ask you, do the people who train ground grappling train out on the concrete, gravel, or do they train on a mat? Do they do all of these take you to the ground techniques in a controlled environment? In order to practice an individual take down or other tactic you have to drill that tactic right? So what is the difference between that and a drill that you’re doing while standing up moving on your feet?

your argument is wrong. we don't complain about environment, we complain about aliveness. In judo, bjj and mt, we are able to train extremely hard. I can spar, randori, roll, etc. very aggressively everyday against a resisting opponent. TMA on the other hand can't practice their eye gouges, hair pulls, groin strikes and other deadly self defense techniques with the same intensity.


I don’t see anything different other than the tactic itself. NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground. BUT your ground tactic isn’t going to work standing on your feet either.

no it won't, but my throw will. grappling isn't purely ground based, however the ground is the focus. there are plenty of throws, sweeps and takedowns. In my case, several more, as I also train judo, which focuses on standup grappling.

So the argument goes both ways. Every tactic has a purpose and there is a time and place for that tactic. So the phrase “I’d like to see you use that against a ground fighter” has no merit.

yes it does. I don't care where your slap trap works. However, many tma guys say that their style has grappling, or that their chin na will just transfer to the ground. That, is false. On the same token, a bjj guy won't be able to apply his armbar the same way if you are standing, but you don't hear bjj guys saying that they can do that...

I throw that question back at you “well I’d like to see you mount me when I’m not on the ground and moving”.

grappling matches begin standing. being up and moving isn't really an issue. close the distance and take them down.

You can come close but unless you are wanting to hurt your training partner you are never going to be able to train a real fighting situation period.

agreed. But in all honesty, who comes closer, the avg sport guy or the avg tma? tma train for a possibility; sport fighters train for an inevitability.

What does the modern ground fighter have in his arsenal to deal with the opponent that they can’t get a hold of?

opportunity. do you kick? If so, I can enter on that. Do you punch? I can cover and follow it back in. getting hold of someone isn't extremely hard, necessarily. Think of ir as our version of bridging, if you will. Plus, as I've said, many guys cross train, so they will do the same thing you do from that distance - strike.

[Shadow Skill]

WOW, that was a long rant (lol). But seriously I feel where you are coming from. I had a co worker find out I studied kung fu and the "that wouldn't work" conversations begun. He would also say ignorant stuff like "all you stand up fighters are the same, All I have to do is get you on the ground". But what he didn't know is how much of what I knew or anything about the style I do. So invited him to test my skillz. You mentioned above that it's not the style it's the fighter... well he wasn't a good fighter. He had so many flaws fighting standing up there was no way he could ever get me on the ground.
I fully agree that people tend to judge other arts just based on a glimps of some practice technique or a 2 man exercise.

[Shadow Skill]

7* you seem to always raise some good points. But what I think shirkers is talking about is this attitude that people that grapple have.
on the flip side of that I think that a lot of us MAist tend to have a sort of ****y attitude or some times a little too confident maybe. So when some one comes at during a work out saying that won't work or this is not practical pi$$e$ people off regardless of what they study,and it leads to long drawn out disscussions such as this. I even find my self looking at others like their style is inferior to mine or like if tries that on me I would do this. I think that mind state comes from the confidevce we gain as MAist. And all though most of us think like that sometime it doesn't have to always be verbalized.

[shirkers1]

Seven star

You are bringing up some of the same points I'm talking about. You bring up some good ones but I hear the same things over and over. Like I said my training has worked fine for me. It's engrained into my every fiber. So what you trained short times on I have trained for years. It's to the point direct and when the opening presents itself action is taken, not thought of that action. We are the aggressors in the action, I still haven't heard of tactics you use if you don't get a hold of us. Not to say it won't happen someday, but I have yet had a grappler get a hold of me and take me to the ground and keep me there with out me doing more damage before he gets there and after he gets me there. Do you guys train on concrete, gravel or mats? If you train on mats your style is useless and inferior!!!!! LOL That's the kind of attitude I get from you guys on the way we train. I don't care who you are you are not going to be happy about rolling around on the concrete I've been there and it's not fun. So does that mean that your style sucks because you train on a mat and not in a real street situation? NO IT DOESN'T, I can say that. Why can't you guys say that stand up tactics work too? There is no middle ground. We do train "aliveness" but like I said you can only do so much before it's a real fight intending to hurt the other guy. If you've never been to a work out or seen me "fight" then don't say my stuff doesn't work. I wouldn't do the same to you. It's called respect. Any one who fights knows what this word is because most of the time that's what you are fighting for. Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger. That's arrogant and ignorant; it will bite you in the ass one day. Now I've been told I talk big, and I have to say I have to just to try and match all the big talk I hear from you guys. :)

So in order to throw you have to get a hold of me right? So how are you going to get a hold of me if I'm not standing there letting you? Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone has to develop the tactic somehow. So why is it okay for ground fighters to train the tactics and not okay for a stand up fighter to train them?

Shadow, yes that was my point. Once again I see the same points I just brought up made by 7 star. So I know it's a never-ending battle and that's why I said a rant or question. I was really ranting. I already know the answer I'm going to get from all the modern grappling guys. I've personally seen guys who train the way 7 star trains come in with the attitude and get nowhere with us because they can't get a hold of us. Eventually they give up out of frustration. "Well I can't get a hold of you to do what I want". "No shiat" That is because I don't want you to get a hold of me. So I'm moving I'm not standing in front of you. To use you're term "I'M ALIVE".

It’s all-relative. You know what, I really can't argue this any more I've done enough of this on the BULLSHIDO board where apparently quote "mantis is the new WC to make fun of". So yes we should abolish all MA styles and train like modern grapplers because in their words it's inevitable. <-- Sarcasm... Bottom line I would love for every one of you to just keep thinking the way you do and I'll just keep doing what I do.

[ekaltenborn]

Shirkers...great insight. I enjoy reading your posts.

Sevenstar-Just a quick question/observation... without starting an argument.... How experienced are you at both grappling and mantis kung fu?...You seem quick to offer up rebuttals.... Im assuming that you must be very proficient in both?


I personally have trained with shirkers both recently and when he was younger.... I can attest that he is the real deal. he has a great understanding of the principles we practice and can put them to use in a tactical situation. trust me my friend......


I have trained over a decade in a grappling syatem, and another decade in tanglang...and I have used both in my work. I have found that my tanglang training seves me much more than my grappling,... Like shirkers, my tanglang has been ingrained into me. My grappling is really secondary....more of a last resort

[shirkers1]

I could have just posted and talked to myself on this subject it has me so riled up. LOL

Thanks E for the compliments. You're no slouch yourself. :)

I think it falls back on the training of the individual and that individuals drive to be a fighter. Some of us were lucky enough to receive great training from a great teacher who himself has his head on straight when it comes to combat effective MA. Through this training I among others have run across styles across the board. All having something to offer but none being the end all be all style period, modern grapplers included. My style included on that list and I’m not saying my style was better than theirs but the training and fighters involved took care of business. Every situation calls for a tactic. You have to know that, you can’t be that arrogant to say I don’t care about your slap traps because it’s going to the ground. That’s like me saying I don’t care about your ground fighting because I’m not going to the ground. If the opportunity presents itself and the practitioner is trained properly he will do what he does best. I’m no slouch on the ground so frankly I don’t care if you do get me on the ground, but I tell you what you aren’t going to have fun getting me there.

To quote a great teacher/friend “all you ****ers have a plan until you get cracked in the face”. That sentence speaks volumes. I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous. I wouldn’t be that bold to speak of my own art. There has to be a middle ground for each side to say there is use for both. I have yet to hear a modern grappler be a man about it and say, “oh wow what If I don’t get the guy down, or he won’t let me get a hold of him”? “Wish I knew how to fight on my feet”. I’m man enough to say that “hell yeah you should know how to ground fight”. But I’m not going to dismiss everything else for the chance someone lets me get close enough to take them down without taking some debilitating shots in the process. Leaving me useless once I do get him to the ground. So that’s why I keep saying, just go right on thinking the way you do. All kung fu is weak and useless in street combat. I mean hell mantis has only been in existence for hundreds of years. It couldn’t have any thing to offer.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Like I said my training has worked fine for me. It's engrained into my every fiber. So what you trained short times on I have trained for years. It's to the point direct and when the opening presents itself action is taken, not thought of that action.

The "so what" comes in when you are talking about time to learn. Why should it take years if it doesn't have to? They are two means to the same end. However, I'd rather become proficient faster - what if I'm training a style that takes years to become proficient at and I get attacked 5 months into my training? Some styles spend that much time just trying to get mechanics down, I hear. In that amount of time, you could be sparring, hard drilling, etc. It's not a big thing though, as I said - two means to the same end.

We are the aggressors in the action, I still haven't heard of tactics you use if you don't get a hold of us.

I mentioned two things above - our "bridging" catching kicks, following your hand as a punch returns, etc. Also, foot work. My goal is to cut off your line. It's called stalking. I want to try and control where you go - ideally backward, as I can advance quicker than you can retreat. you can also evade a strike and crash into them. for example, a strike comes to my face, lower level and come in under the punch - the good old fashioned shot. When our guys are getting ready for mma fights, we do drills where one guy can only strike and the other can only takedown. 9 times out of 10, the takedown guy makes contact, even if it doesn't result in a takedown. There will at least be a clinch, and from there the grappler can work.

Not to say it won't happen someday, but I have yet had a grappler get a hold of me and take me to the ground and keep me there with out me doing more damage before he gets there and after he gets me there.

I can say the opposite. Naturally, the next question is the quality of the grapplers and strikers that we have had experience with. Everyone's reference point will be different. However, there are pro level strikers that get taken down all the time, so natrually that would be questioned.

Do you guys train on concrete, gravel or mats?

depends on the class bjj and judo on mats. thai boxing on mats, canvas and on concrete.

If you train on mats your style is useless and inferior!!!!!

our mats have bits of gravel on them to simulate concrete.

LOL That's the kind of attitude I get from you guys on the way we train.

I get the same attitude from you guys. Actually, IME, TMA guys are the worst with this. When I started grappling, they asked me about my background. They were really anxious to see some stuff. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, than it's great. But, if you are just a trash talker, you get no respect. Conversely, I know CMA who said things like "if I grapple every day for 6 months (in the kung fu class) I will be as good as ANY grappler" and "in a real fight, all you have to do is punch them in the throat or hit them in the nuts". My favorite was "boxers have no real skill - they just stand there and slug eachother." wtf?

I don't care who you are you are not going to be happy about rolling around on the concrete I've been there and it's not fun.

It's no fun at all. Luckily, grapplers can throw. People make the assumption that we WANT to be on the ground in a fight. that's not necessarily true. However, if it ends up on the ground, we will know what to do. you may not be able to avoid going to the ground. I figure I may as well know what to do there.

So does that mean that your style sucks because you train on a mat and not in a real street situation? NO IT DOESN'T, I can say that. Why can't you guys say that stand up tactics work too?

We do say stand up works. that's why we cross train. What we say doesn't work are some of the BS theories people come up with. "just side step a double leg" as if it's coming from a mile across the room. chances are, you won't see it coming. "Once they have you, elbow them in the base of the neck" ummm.... no. Once we "have you", you are in the air and going backwards - that position shift kills any power you had while your feet were on the ground. your strikes won't hurt enough to do any real damage. "On the ground I'll use short power" fine, prove it... "I will sink my weight, becoming immovable - his takedown won't budge me" ROFL... right. This is the stuff we say doesn't work. Some people spout theories that have obviously never been tested, or else they would see how stupid they sound. Sport fighters tend not to sound this way, as they are always testing.


There is no middle ground. We do train "aliveness" but like I said you can only do so much before it's a real fight intending to hurt the other guy.

which is another point we make. People always say things like - for self defense we use hair pulling, eye gouges, kicks to the groin and knee, etc. - how are you able to do those full speed with significat force? you can't and don't. you really therefore can't quite be sure that you can pull it off against a fully resisting opponent. I do believe there is a middle ground.... that middle ground is basics.


If you've never been to a work out or seen me "fight" then don't say my stuff doesn't work. I wouldn't do the same to you. It's called respect. Any one who fights knows what this word is because most of the time that's what you are fighting for.

you are assuming that all of the people who speak also fight... However, what you are fighting for depends on the person and the situation. In the street, you are fighting for survival. As for the ring, it varies. I really don't care if you respect me. I fight to test myself. the fight is everything. the money medals and people's thoughts about me mean nothing.

Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger.

where are you talking about fighting? surely you're not talking about the street...

That's arrogant and ignorant; it will bite you in the ass one day. Now I've been told I talk big, and I have to say I have to just to try and match all the big talk I hear from you guys. :)

lol, actually you guys started it. I never witnessed any MMA guys saying anything until after I started hearing tma say that the only thing you need to do to avoid a double leg is sidestep. :p then, the grappler's started saying "prove it".

So in order to throw you have to get a hold of me right? So how are you going to get a hold of me if I'm not standing there letting you? Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone has to develop the tactic somehow. So why is it okay for ground fighters to train the tactics and not okay for a stand up fighter to train them?

that's cool, let's turn the table. How are you going to hit me when I don't just stand there? I move, have good foot work, keep my chin down, hands up, head mobile... I don't want you to hit me - what are you gonna do to change that?

Shadow, yes that was my point. Once again I see the same points I just brought up made by 7 star.

as long as there is some validity to any of them, you will always here the same points.

So I know it's a never-ending battle and that's why I said a rant or question. I was really ranting. I already know the answer I'm going to get from all the modern grappling guys. I've personally seen guys who train the way 7 star trains come in with the attitude and get nowhere with us because they can't get a hold of us. Eventually they give up out of frustration. "Well I can't get a hold of you to do what I want". "No shiat" That is because I don't want you to get a hold of me. So I'm moving I'm not standing in front of you. To use you're term "I'M ALIVE".

once again, I've experienced the exact opposite.

It’s all-relative. You know what, I really can't argue this any more I've done enough of this on the BULLSHIDO board where apparently quote "mantis is the new WC to make fun of". So yes we should abolish all MA styles and train like modern grapplers because in their words it's inevitable.

now you are getting it - resistance is futile! :D

Bottom line I would love for every one of you to just keep thinking the way you do and I'll just keep doing what I do.

that's the way it always has been. However, we think this way and are on a DISCUSSION forum.... of course we know what happens next.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn

Sevenstar-Just a quick question/observation... without starting an argument.... How experienced are you at both grappling and mantis kung fu?...You seem quick to offer up rebuttals.... Im assuming that you must be very proficient in both?

I'm not proficient in mantis at all - sevenstar is just a cool name. :p I've done 5 years of longfist and play with shuai chiao guys when the opportunity presents itself. I've been doing judo, bjj and thai for about three years. prior to I've also trained karate for 3 years under a friend from japan who was phenomenal. I would likely still be training that, but he moved back to japan.

I personally have trained with shirkers both recently and when he was younger.... I can attest that he is the real deal. he has a great understanding of the principles we practice and can put them to use in a tactical situation. trust me my friend......

I don't doubt him at all. I was merely repsonding to his thread.


I have trained over a decade in a grappling syatem, and another decade in tanglang...and I have used both in my work. I have found that my tanglang training seves me much more than my grappling,... Like shirkers, my tanglang has been ingrained into me. My grappling is really secondary....more of a last resort

that's the way it should be - you are a striker. I am primarily a striker as well. I do recognize the benefit of a good ground game though and train it accordingly.

question for you though - you have over a decade in which grappling system? If it is wrestling, do you have a hard time taking a striker down?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

I think it falls back on the training of the individual and that individuals drive to be a fighter.

STOP SAYING THINGS I DISAGREE WITH!! :D I hate that statement. IMO, it should fall back on the school. But, it doesn't, and that's part of the problem. What image comes to peoples mind when you say kung fu? tkd? muay thai? Now, why is that? When you step into a thai boxing class, boxing class, etc. you will train like a fighter, whether you want to fight or not. That's not always the case with tma - as you said, they have to have the drive within themselves. Drive is awesome. but the school should have a standard.


Every situation calls for a tactic. You have to know that, you can’t be that arrogant to say I don’t care about your slap traps because it’s going to the ground. That’s like me saying I don’t care about your ground fighting because I’m not going to the ground.

you misunderstand what I said. you used it in a ground context - "NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground." from what you said, we were already on the ground.

If the opportunity presents itself and the practitioner is trained properly he will do what he does best. I’m no slouch on the ground so frankly I don’t care if you do get me on the ground, but I tell you what you aren’t going to have fun getting me there.

doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.

To quote a great teacher/friend “all you ****ers have a plan until you get cracked in the face”. That sentence speaks volumes.

It speaks volumes for someone who doesn't know how to take a hit or isn't used to it. That's why I stress the value of sparring and getting in the ring. When someone who fights gets popped in the face, he retains his cool and sticks to his plan - he's used to taking shots. Once the brain gets rattled, all hope may be lost, depending on the person, but not all strikes will cause this to happen.

I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous.

I don't know of any serious guys who say that.

I have yet to hear a modern grappler be a man about it and say, “oh wow what If I don’t get the guy down, or he won’t let me get a hold of him”? “Wish I knew how to fight on my feet”.

1. step into the new millenium... most guys are cross training now with boxing, muay thai, etc.

2. if you look at past history, grapplers have had no problem getting a striker down unless he's trained with grapplers in depth and is knowledgeable of takedown defenses. A perfect example of this is chuck lidell. He is a terror because he is so good at defending takedowns.

3. "he won't let me get hold of him" will never pop into our mind. you aren't supposed to let us and we are expecting that.

I mean hell mantis has only been in existence for hundreds of years.

Is that supposed to mean something? mantis is a good style for sure, but the fact that it's still around isn't necessarily a testament of that. It simply means that there have been enough people to pass it down to and it's been kept alive. If I'm not mistaken, boxing, thai and wrestling all predate mantis.

[ekaltenborn]

so sevenstar, correct me if Im wrong... you havent much formal training?.....maybe 6 years?....which.. i mean,,... hell atleast you arent sitting on the couch eating cheese puffs and watching cartoons.

to answer your question, .. my grappling training has been in japanese ji jitsu. And no... I have never tried to take shirkers down when sparring.... i would have likely got my head busted. these guys i train with are pretty aggressive and their footwork is such that it would be very difficult to get ahold of them to take them down without being hit several times.

We have gone through 'phases' where we grapple... and have found that when someone is well trained, it can be hard to grapple them.

I have a friend and coworker that does bjj. hes been at it for several years.. and when askd why he doesnt spar with me for fun... he replies 'i dont want to get hit, eric doesnt play around'.....

Im not discrediting your post, but you say yourself you have never done mantis...... hell do you even have a good understanding of what seven star mantis is?.....

All I am saying is that I have used both... grappling and striking.... I have found my mantis to be much more effective.... Im here to tell you friend.... try to grapple sopmeone who moves like shirkers...... and youll likely be seeing a doctor.

I myself like to roll...... but I also understand the necessity to stay on my feet if at all possible.

Besides... grappling is one range..... its the closest... you have to get through my kicking and striking range first; and my response is c'mon buddy.... lets see what you got!!!!!

[ekaltenborn]

man... 7*... now i read your last post after my reply and i need to rant a little more.....

Shirkers is correct. After 20 plus years in this business I have to agree with him. It does all go back to the individial's training. people do martial arts; regardless fo the style for different reasons. Some want to learn to fight... some want to do it for confidence...some do it because it looks cool.... i for example do a little t'ai chi.... not because i want to fight with it.... because i enjoy it...it teaches me another way to do some things...and the group is allot of fun!!...... as you reach a more advanced level in your training, hopefully you can understand this...

You make some good points.... I have however made another observation.... from the sounds of it, you have done 5 years of long fist.. which I cant speak intelligently about... could you grapple your teacher?.......

I have tried to grapple my mantis teacher.... and got hit....
several times...



doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.

this is just an uninformed statement...... please my friend...try to put me on the ground.... obviously you dont fight people who actually like to fight and would rather hit you than talk to you.... i have worked in several very rough bars... ive been there... in that situation.... if you allow some wanna be to put you onthe floor... you have a real problem.

[ursa major]

This seems to be a SevenStar and MMA vs. the rest of us kind of thing... I don't want to get into that debate but...

I am curious about one thing and have a question for MMA/grapplers/wrestlers/etc.

Now as I see it, the most probable outcome of a fight from the grapplers perspective is to head for the ground. It doesn't matter so much if you do or do not want to get there or that you may or may not agree with it personally, it matters that typical training from the grapplers perspective can be summed up as looking to the ground for the finishing technique. I make this conclusion having trained Jui-Jitsu and Hap-Kido (and now train 7 Star) and of course reading some of the many subject posts on this web site.

Now, assuming you are successful and take it to the ground and even bust up your opponent (broken arm, ribs, neck, leg, etc)...
what are you going to do about his buddies who are kicking you in the head with their Daytons while you are on the ground winning your fight?

Every fight I have witnessed in the last several years has been 2-3 or more on one and when it went to the ground the (victim) was done for.

Best regards,
UM.

[sayloc]

I think that a person should be well rounded in their fighting techniques. You should be able to fight using your blocking kicking, throwing and grappling techniques.

The seven star guy may think they can end it before it gets to the ground. The grappler may think he can get the seven star guy to the ground to end it.

I think you should be able to fight your opponent outside of what he is comfortable with. IE - If he is a grappler try to stay outside and fight him with what he is not familiar with. But you should have enough grappling skills to fight him at his preferred style if it goes that way.

You may be attacked by more than one. I agree this is very common. In this case you have to be well trained and lucky.

The best way is to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
man... 7*... now i read your last post after my reply and i need to rant a little more.....

lol, that's the nature of these discussions. Thye always end up this way!

Shirkers is correct. After 20 plus years in this business I have to agree with him. It does all go back to the individial's training. people do martial arts; regardless fo the style for different reasons. Some want to learn to fight... some want to do it for confidence...some do it because it looks cool.... i for example do a little t'ai chi.... not because i want to fight with it.... because i enjoy it...it teaches me another way to do some things...and the group is allot of fun!!...... as you reach a more advanced level in your training, hopefully you can understand this...

no doubt I understand it. But, at the heart of MA is fighting. I enjoy it too. One of my buds wants me to stop by his capoeira class. And I might, because it looks cool. But, I've sparred with him before and I know he can kick arse with it as well. That's a standard set by his group. If you train with him, you will be able to fight with it.

You make some good points.... I have however made another observation.... from the sounds of it, you have done 5 years of long fist.. which I cant speak intelligently about... could you grapple your teacher?.......

then I couldn't, as I wasn't grappling then, other than the stuff we did in that class.

I have tried to grapple my mantis teacher.... and got hit....
several times...

:D was this before your grappling experience? Could you not get in AT ALL?


this is just an uninformed statement...... please my friend...try to put me on the ground.... obviously you dont fight people who actually like to fight and would rather hit you than talk to you.... i have worked in several very rough bars... ive been there... in that situation.... if you allow some wanna be to put you onthe floor... you have a real problem.

I've worked security as well. I also know how to evade and cover. you have grappled - you know that you don't just rush in with your hands down. That will get you KTFO by anyone. with my chin down and hands up, base lowered, shooting in, major target areas are slight. When I shoot in however, sure punches will be thrown. WIll you stop your advance merely because of that? nah, you take them and continue the shoot. Now, naturally, if you are unable to get hold of him, you don't sit there and continually rush in, eating shots - that wouldn't make sense.

[SevenStar]

crap, all these replies....gotta....go.....to....work...!

lol, I shoulda known better than to sit down at the computer before work!! :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
so sevenstar, correct me if Im wrong... you havent much formal training?.....maybe 6 years?....which.. i mean,,... hell atleast you arent sitting on the couch eating cheese puffs and watching cartoons.

closer to 10. 13 if I include the time I spent in tang soo do as a kid. Or, are you referring to my time in longfist?

to answer your question, .. my grappling training has been in japanese ji jitsu. And no... I have never tried to take shirkers down when sparring.... i would have likely got my head busted. these guys i train with are pretty aggressive and their footwork is such that it would be very difficult to get ahold of them to take them down without being hit several times.

your focus in jjj is mainly standup grappling, no? So there's really no need for a shoot, as you aren't trying to take them down? In such a case, I can understand not being able to close and get hold of someone.


Im not discrediting your post, but you say yourself you have never done mantis...... hell do you even have a good understanding of what seven star mantis is?.....

yeah, I have an idea of what it is. Mobile footwork doesn't lead to being unable to take a person down though. grasp, strike continually, throw... Actually - not too different from us. Different means though. However, my comments aren't geared toward mantis specifically - we are actually having a similar discussion now on the WC forum. and we've had it on the main forum. And I've had it in person with karateka and other cma... it's endless.

All I am saying is that I have used both... grappling and striking.... I have found my mantis to be much more effective.... Im here to tell you friend.... try to grapple sopmeone who moves like shirkers...... and youll likely be seeing a doctor.

like I said, that's what cross training is for. I can grapple when the opportunity presents. when it comes to fighting, there are no pure grapplers anymore.

I myself like to roll...... but I also understand the necessity to stay on my feet if at all possible.

As do I.

[shirkers1]

---The "so what" comes in when you are talking about time to learn. Why should it take years if it doesn't have to? They are two means to the same end. However, I'd rather become proficient faster - what if I'm training a style that takes years to become proficient at and I get attacked 5 months into my training? Some styles spend that much time just trying to get mechanics down, I hear. In that amount of time, you could be sparring, hard drilling, etc. It's not a big thing though, as I said - two means to the same end.---

What if you got into a fight after the first day of class. It's a vicious circle. The way I train is fine and has worked for me. The way you train is fine for what you do as well. Tie no winner.

--I mentioned two things above - our "bridging" catching kicks, following your hand as a punch returns, etc. Also, foot work. My goal is to cut off your line. It's called stalking. I want to try and control where you go - ideally backward, as I can advance quicker than you can retreat. you can also evade a strike and crash into them. for example, a strike comes to my face, lower level and come in under the punch - the good old fashioned shot. When our guys are getting ready for mma fights, we do drills where one guy can only strike and the other can only takedown. 9 times out of 10, the takedown guy makes contact, even if it doesn't result in a takedown. There will at least be a clinch, and from there the grappler can work.--

We do the same but our goal is for you not to get a hold of us. If you do fine, we have the same posture as you. Head tucked shoulders up and moving hopefully we do more damage. tie no winner.

--I can say the opposite. Naturally, the next question is the quality of the grapplers and strikers that we have had experience with. Everyone's reference point will be different. However, there are pro level strikers that get taken down all the time, so natrually that would be questioned.--


I agree but I've seen pro level ground fighters get KTFO before they even get close. tie no winner

---I get the same attitude from you guys. Actually, IME, TMA guys are the worst with this. When I started grappling, they asked me about my background. They were really anxious to see some stuff. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, than it's great. But, if you are just a trash talker, you get no respect. Conversely, I know CMA who said things like "if I grapple every day for 6 months (in the kung fu class) I will be as good as ANY grappler" and "in a real fight, all you have to do is punch them in the throat or hit them in the nuts". My favorite was "boxers have no real skill - they just stand there and slug eachother." wtf?---

Well what if that kung fu guy is training his grappling like you do? You said it yourself that you learn in a short period of time. I still agree with them that everyone has different pain tolerances. Back to individual fighter not the style. not really a tie I still think I edged you on that one. But we'll call it even NO WINNER.

---It's no fun at all. Luckily, grapplers can throw. People make the assumption that we WANT to be on the ground in a fight. that's not necessarily true. However, if it ends up on the ground, we will know what to do. you may not be able to avoid going to the ground. I figure I may as well know what to do there.----

Well you don't study 7 star so you don't know but we are very strong at throws and nasty ones at that. tie no winner

----We do say stand up works. that's why we cross train. What we say doesn't work are some of the BS theories people come up with. "just side step a double leg" as if it's coming from a mile across the room. chances are, you won't see it coming. "Once they have you, elbow them in the base of the neck" ummm.... no. Once we "have you", you are in the air and going backwards - that position shift kills any power you had while your feet were on the ground. your strikes won't hurt enough to do any real damage. "On the ground I'll use short power" fine, prove it... "I will sink my weight, becoming immovable - his takedown won't budge me" ROFL... right. This is the stuff we say doesn't work. Some people spout theories that have obviously never been tested, or else they would see how stupid they sound. Sport fighters tend not to sound this way, as they are always testing.

which is another point we make. People always say things like - for self defense we use hair pulling, eye gouges, kicks to the groin and knee, etc. - how are you able to do those full speed with significat force? you can't and don't. you really therefore can't quite be sure that you can pull it off against a fully resisting opponent. I do believe there is a middle ground.... that middle ground is basics.---

So there is no defense against a ground fighter? That's all I hear from grapplers. Bull hockey pucks. It doesn't take practice it takes an inside willingness to do what it takes to hurt someone with dirty tactics. Another thing you guys don't think about is we don't have to hit you in the face we hit anything and everything that's within reach. We love nice meaty guys like grapplers, I've ended fights without even making a head shot. you may think you won that one I think I did. NO tie I won.

----you are assuming that all of the people who speak also fight... However, what you are fighting for depends on the person and the situation. In the street, you are fighting for survival. As for the ring, it varies. I really don't care if you respect me. I fight to test myself. the fight is everything. the money medals and people's thoughts about me mean nothing.

Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger.

where are you talking about fighting? surely you're not talking about the street...--------

How many fights have you been in or seen that you actually thought the other guys wanted to kill? It's almost always a **** contest and someone wants to save face so they fight. Depending on the person depends on how much they are willing to inflict harm on the other person and how many people are involved in the fight. I agree with a post made earlier. While your grinding your crotch into the guy your fighting on the ground his friends are treating you like a soccer ball (while standing up might i add).. I win

----lol, actually you guys started it. I never witnessed any MMA guys saying anything until after I started hearing tma say that the only thing you need to do to avoid a double leg is sidestep. then, the grappler's started saying "prove it".----

I almost vomited when I read this, I just spent the last few days getting insulted repeatedly by so called tough guys on the bullshido forum. Not once did I disrespect an individual or style, and I was called every name in the book with out inteligance and like I said if you were in front of me you wouldn't be saying it. Period. I highly doubt mantis practitioners hound you day and night about your training saying it's useless. i win

---that's cool, let's turn the table. How are you going to hit me when I don't just stand there? I move, have good foot work, keep my chin down, hands up, head mobile... I don't want you to hit me - what are you gonna do to change that? ---

You can't turn the table without answering the question that I was asking turning the table. :) tie no winner

To end this very long question answer. I in no way have anything personal against 7 star. We've had are arguments before and at least he gives inteligent points to his side. But my initial rant was directed to the fools out there who come out with nothing but verbal insults instead of knowledge. I know these guys have nothing to offer but I'm human and get sucked into the debate. :) Oh well.

[shirkers1]

---STOP SAYING THINGS I DISAGREE WITH!! I hate that statement. IMO, it should fall back on the school. But, it doesn't, and that's part of the problem. What image comes to peoples mind when you say kung fu? tkd? muay thai? Now, why is that? When you step into a thai boxing class, boxing class, etc. you will train like a fighter, whether you want to fight or not. That's not always the case with tma - as you said, they have to have the drive within themselves. Drive is awesome. but the school should have a standard.----

Well here's the thing, you can have a great school with a great teacher. But still produce bad students, I've seen this in person. It's up to that individual to have the drive as well it's not one or the other. tie no winner

---doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.--

As I fighter we all know that, but those lumps can add up. tie no winner

---It speaks volumes for someone who doesn't know how to take a hit or isn't used to it. That's why I stress the value of sparring and getting in the ring. When someone who fights gets popped in the face, he retains his cool and sticks to his plan - he's used to taking shots. Once the brain gets rattled, all hope may be lost, depending on the person, but not all strikes will cause this to happen. ---

Once again still depends on the person, but has nothing to do with whether grappling is the end all be all which is the intial argument. I win

--I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous.

I don't know of any serious guys who say that.---

Other than you that's all I've heard. That's why I said it. I win

[shirkers1]

From my personal experiance over the years we've had guys from all over the board come in and spar train whatever. We love to cross train and all of you know why. The benefits etc. Not once did that person leave thinking they had the upper hand in anything. Most of the time that person dropped their other training and joined us. Now I don't know if it was our school and training or what that is different from other schools. I don't know how they would have held up to other northern mantis schools, I'm speaking for myself. All I know is this garbage I hear out there doesn't stand up in my eyes. Modern grapplers are not the end all be all.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ursa major
This seems to be a SevenStar and MMA vs. the rest of us kind of thing... I don't want to get into that debate but...

I am curious about one thing and have a question for MMA/grapplers/wrestlers/etc.

Now as I see it, the most probable outcome of a fight from the grapplers perspective is to head for the ground. It doesn't matter so much if you do or do not want to get there or that you may or may not agree with it personally, it matters that typical training from the grapplers perspective can be summed up as looking to the ground for the finishing technique. I make this conclusion having trained Jui-Jitsu and Hap-Kido (and now train 7 Star) and of course reading some of the many subject posts on this web site.

the term finishing technique makes me think of anime. Anyhoo, grapplers don't necessarily want to be on the ground. In the self defense portion of our classes, we use throws and takedowns mainly, keeping us on our feet. As I understand it, the gracie academies train SD the same way, and I have a copy of royce's self defense book - the majority of it is standup. As I said, you don't want to go to the ground, but if you go there, you had better know what to do.

Now, assuming you are successful and take it to the ground and even bust up your opponent (broken arm, ribs, neck, leg, etc)...
what are you going to do about his buddies who are kicking you in the head with their Daytons while you are on the ground winning your fight?

Every fight I have witnessed in the last several years has been 2-3 or more on one and when it went to the ground the (victim) was done for.

Now, let's flip this one - you are attacked by multiple people. In such a situation, you have an increased chance of being put on the ground - a tackle from your blind side, one of them can slip and take you down with them when they fall, or intentionally drag you down, etc. When you end up on the ground, what are you gonna do? Who do you think can get up more efficiently, a striker who only trains standup or a grappler who is very familiar with the ground?

[unixfudotnet]

I am a newbie to mantis, but isn't predefined 2 man drills intermediate level?

My opinion is that you can never understand any style or system unless you experience and learn it yourself. A video or clip will never be able to automatically give this to you.

I do not understand how anyone can speak about any other system unless they know it. Just like anything else. How can I speak about programming embedded devices when all I do all day is UNIX systems and database programming, ya know. I may think I understand, but I really can not unless I actually do it.

It even seems very insulting to even suggest one could judge any system or style without actually knowing it and training in it for a long time. A couple of years too many people think they get it, and they do not.

That is why I think all this style/system vs style/system discussions are so silly, because most of the people really have no real basis upon when to back up the words that they speak. I can only speak of what I actually know. Everyone can only really speak of what they actually honestly know, not what they think they know, but what they know. Otherwise it is pointless conversation. Like people debating politics based upon information they read/hear from the media (which is a business, and from doing .gov consulting, I can assure you, that the media doesn't always tell you the truth).

[shirkers1]

Exactly unix, which was part of my original rant. That is the attitude I got from these cats all because mr ENFORCER put the vids on another forum. Which I don't mind because I'll back up my own vids. Problem was he put others vids on there as well and people were mixing the vids up and saying that my stuff was inferior with those vids as examples. I agree that makes them very ignorant. Hence my post.

as with 7 star we will never ever agree as a whole but we do agree on some points. It's all relative.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

Well what if that kung fu guy is training his grappling like you do? You said it yourself that you learn in a short period of time. I still agree with them that everyone has different pain tolerances. Back to individual fighter not the style. not really a tie I still think I edged you on that one. But we'll call it even NO WINNER.

even the basics of the grappling we did were weak compared to what I've learned since I started grappling. And even back then, I could out grapple them. where they have to experiment with their techniques on the ground, mine have been tested for years. Me, huge winner.



Well you don't study 7 star so you don't know but we are very strong at throws and nasty ones at that. tie no winner

no tie there. You train weapons, stance work, strikes, kicks, forms, iron body, chu gung... the grappler is training grappling only. He wins.



So there is no defense against a ground fighter? That's all I hear from grapplers. Bull hockey pucks. It doesn't take practice it takes an inside willingness to do what it takes to hurt someone with dirty tactics. Another thing you guys don't think about is we don't have to hit you in the face we hit anything and everything that's within reach. We love nice meaty guys like grapplers, I've ended fights without even making a head shot. you may think you won that one I think I did. NO tie I won.

not saying there's no defense. However, I've been piched, bitted, had pressure oints attempted, been hit, etc. to no avail - pain compliance is never the answer. I did win.


How many fights have you been in or seen that you actually thought the other guys wanted to kill? It's almost always a **** contest and someone wants to save face so they fight.

In clubs and such yes. other than that, no. I personally stopped a guy from beating the he11 out of a paper boy. There was no face involved - the guy had money and looked like a victim.

Depending on the person depends on how much they are willing to inflict harm on the other person and how many people are involved in the fight. I agree with a post made earlier. While your grinding your crotch into the guy your fighting on the ground his friends are treating you like a soccer ball (while standing up might i add).. I win

those same guys are attacking you and one blind sided you. you are now in the ground with no knowledge of ground grappling. you lose.


I almost vomited when I read this, I just spent the last few days getting insulted repeatedly by so called tough guys on the bullshido forum. Not once did I disrespect an individual or style, and I was called every name in the book with out inteligance and like I said if you were in front of me you wouldn't be saying it. Period. I highly doubt mantis practitioners hound you day and night about your training saying it's useless. i win

c'mon...bullshido? you're asking for it there. it's a bunch of guys looking for people to talk about. you can change that though - enter a McThrowdown.

I do get hounded quite a bit. Matter of factly, recently we were in a nearby pizza place. the guy behind the counter asked us if we trained there and we said yes and talked to him about it. He went on to say that he trained in a standup style and wouldn't get taken to the ground, so he had no need for grappling. It happens quite a bit. I win.

To end this very long question answer. I in no way have anything personal against 7 star. We've had are arguments before and at least he gives inteligent points to his side.

agreed. I enjoy your posts - you give us something to talk about, and without it degenrating like so many other threads do.

But my initial rant was directed to the fools out there who come out with nothing but verbal insults instead of knowledge. I know these guys have nothing to offer but I'm human and get sucked into the debate. :) Oh well.

lol, that's what happens when you visit a forum like bullshido... :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Exactly unix, which was part of my original rant. That is the attitude I got from these cats all because mr ENFORCER put the vids on another forum. Which I don't mind because I'll back up my own vids. Problem was he put others vids on there as well and people were mixing the vids up and saying that my stuff was inferior with those vids as examples. I agree that makes them very ignorant. Hence my post.

as with 7 star we will never ever agree as a whole but we do agree on some points. It's all relative.

enforcer is a troll. he posts on other forums as enforcer and used to post here as unmatchable, but I banned him. he now posts here as enforcer as well.

when he first started posting as unmatchable, we caught him using our posts word for word as his own on another forum. In some cases he would say he was quoting it, but in other cases, he just copied it word for word, as if it was his thought.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet

I do not understand how anyone can speak about any other system unless they know it. Just like anything else. How can I speak about programming embedded devices when all I do all day is UNIX systems and database programming, ya know. I may think I understand, but I really can not unless I actually do it.

forget unix. linux 0wn5 j00! what type of database programming do you do?

[shirkers1]

by the way I forgot the smiley faces on the "I win Tie stuff". That was suppose to be funny. There really is no real winner period. I f you are a good fighter you do what it takes to win, whether on the ground or standing up. :)

I didn't choose the whole bullshido thing, vids were posted on there and all I did was try to explain what was going on in the vids and it was a never ending insult fest. Like I said other than you that's all I've gotten from modern ground thinkers.

oh well I'm a grown boy I can take it . :)

exactly with the enforcer thing. So the guy ripps on my stuff then goes and uses my words to answer questions in another thread. Ass clown.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
by the way I forgot the smiley faces on the "I win Tie stuff". That was suppose to be funny.

see? It's too easy to get sucked in!! :)

There really is no real winner period. I f you are a good fighter you do what it takes to win, whether on the ground or standing up. :)

agreed.



exactly with the enforcer thing. So the guy ripps on my stuff then goes and uses my words to answer questions in another thread. Ass clown.

so he did it to you too, huh? focking retard.

[ekaltenborn]

actually seven star i pretty much agree with unix. Unless you have trained in a system; its pretty hard to make an intelligent comparison.

Im sure you are a good longfist person, and a good grappler...

maybe you are an expert with 13 years.... maybe not... i have never trained with you... but hell man,,,,, dont pick on unix because he asked an intelligent question....

Is he not right that you cant compare it unless you understand it?.... you yourself said you had an idea of what mantis is about... Im here to tell you that if you square off with someone at the level as shirkers or myself, you better haev a hell of allot more than an idea....yalk about getting ktfo.......

Im not trying to pick a fight.... Im just saying that you shouldnt compare two systems... when atleast one of them, your understanding is prettty limited.

[unixfudotnet]

I program many things and know Oracle, PostgreSQL, and (unfortunately) MySQL.

I can't really talk about what I am currently working on, but anything that needs to be integrated in any fashion to a database, I can do, in pretty much any popular language (I know like 14 programming languages).

UNIX and Linux programming, heh. Linux is UNIX-ish enough. Mostly work with Linux and *BSD.

If you have specific questions, I am sure I can answer them.

And no, I do not do php and mysql, I refuse to as they are a crappy easy solution that newbies take up, and it has seriously gotten out of hand, heh. Even if this forum is written in it, it still is inferior to most other alternatives.

anywho, PM me with anything else :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
maybe you are an expert with 13 years.... maybe not... i have never trained with you... but hell man,,,,, dont pick on unix because he asked an intelligent question....

you just lost me... when did I pick on him? I've only replied to his one post about unix programming...

[SevenStar]

OH!!! I wasn't saying "forget unixfudotnet", I was saying forget the unix operating system...

[Enforcer-]

lol, actually you guys started it. I never witnessed any MMA guys saying anything until after I started hearing tma say that the only thing you need to do to avoid a double leg is sidestep. then, the grappler's started saying "prove it".

Ralek. Bullshido, mma.tv etc.


We do say stand up works. that's why we cross train.

It wasn't always like this. For a long time grappling was considered the be and all of martial arts and all you needed to learn (especially just atfer the first ufcs). I know of a Judo instructor and other judo people today who still hold this view (at my old judo club I quit training at).

[SevenStar]

yeah, they talk about it now. As I said in my posts, AFAIK, tma's started it all though.

as for the second part of your comment, step out of the 90's what you are talking about changed back around 1997. striekrs were cross training and winning, so grapplers began to train striking.

[Enforcer-]

Again there are still some pure grapplers who only train for grappling competitions who think striking is useless and all you need is grappling. The Judo instructor would badmouth even japanese jiu jitsu that was training in the same hall as him (that I used to train at). And there are plenty of muay thai people that badmouth karate.

And actually it was the Gracie family who started the style vs style stuff.

[Enforcer-]

those same guys are attacking you and one blind sided you. you are now in the ground with no knowledge of ground grappling. you lose.

Most people won't dive down with you to the ground like in the ufc. Theyll stomp or soccer kick you. And if you get hit in the nuts you wont be able to defend yourself anyway (unless you train the iron balls technique or something) because youll be curled up in a ball holding them.

[Enforcer-]

I only used one of your replies to explain demos. But anyway on Bullshido I posted as Strangler, KillerInstinct, rattenkrieg, Fearless, Meravod, Faceless, Enforcer, Unmatchable, MurderInc, Indestructable, Pauper, some others too I think those named are all banned now but you can see my previous posts.

[ekaltenborn]

sorry 7*... I misunderstood... my bad.

Enforcer- I would be intersted to see a clip of you doing your grappling....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
Most people won't dive down with you to the ground like in the ufc. Theyll stomp or soccer kick you. And if you get hit in the nuts you wont be able to defend yourself anyway (unless you train the iron balls technique or something) because youll be curled up in a ball holding them.

I've seen it happen too may times. Ask your wannabe friend if he's seen it. As for the nutshot, you can absorb those surprisingly well when adrenaline is flowing. For that reason I don't reccomend people tartget that area and expect a quick win. When it happened to me, I didn't feel it until after the fight was over.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
Enforcer- I would be intersted to see a clip of you doing your grappling....

you give him too much credit... he doesn't grapple. He barely even trains. according to previous posts of his. That's what I was talking about - the serious guys are too busy training to talk mess. and if they fight, they respect what works.

[Enforcer-]

At least I train more than ralek. And the real mantis (most effective ive seen on video) was in a movie called the thundernig mantis.

[ekaltenborn]

so hes got a houndog mouth and a puppy dog a**....:D haha

my mistake... i thought he actually had something to contribute here...

[ekaltenborn]

enforcer i have to tell you that movie was just plain dumb..... :p im laughing so hard at your post i cant hardly type....

im afraid i will have to agree to disagree with seven star on a couple of points made earlier... atleast he made an intelligent well thought out argument....

thundering mantis... real mantis?....man... did you spend too much time in a choke hold or something?

[Enforcer-]

what's a good example of mantis than? Find a clip on the net or a movie or something that has the "it".

[ekaltenborn]

so.... you admittedly know nothing about it?....... i think they call that talking without knowing what the heck you are talking about!.....

I personally dont know of a movie that gives a good example of praying mantis.

[shirkers1]

ENFORCER

Why look for a movie, I'll mapquest you to my doorstep. You can sit in on a class. No threats, no worries. All you have to do is show up and watch, join in if you like.

mark

[ekaltenborn]

I believe thats a nice way of saying 'put up or shut up'!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
At least I train more than ralek.

that's not saying much... enlighten us. How often do you train? how long are the classes? what do you learn, besides the p!ss poor clinch techniques you've already told me about? how often do you fight? when was your last fight? when is your next one?

[Enforcer-]

I don't fight. I hate getting my shins bruised (my number one rant about muay thai or any sort of kixkboxing). Most people here don't fight either though, so...

[Enforcer-]

And I havent seen one god sparring clip on the net that shows kung fu. Shaw Brother movies is the only form of kung fu I ever saw that looked good, real kung fu looks like kickboxing or brawling. Maybe some of the shaw brothers are the only ones that can use it or in a real fight theyll fight like brawlers as well?

[shirkers1]

I can honestly say I don't enter tourney's. It gets to the point where you are thinking about what you're not allowed to do and the guys who trains for that sport fighting will win because that's all he does. I will enter a throwdown if one is organized here in phoenix though. hint hint The last real fight I was in was back in feb, bar fight in the bathroom and there were three of us and 5 of them. We walked out, they were carried out. Which was sad because it was my birthday and I was dead drunk.

As for bruises? WTF are you talking about then, you don't do any two man conditioning at all chief???!!! Doesn't sound like you are sparring or anything close to it if you aren't making enough contact to get bruised. So what gives you the right to speculate on any one or any ones style?

Now over the years with my iron arm and partner conditioning I have stopped bruising. But all that stuff is part of the game. So what are you gonna do in a fight when someone blasts you dead in your shins? "oh hell no I quit, I might be bruised tomorrow".... you are a waste of space.

[shirkers1]

I apologize for calling you a waste of space. I won't sink to the level of your fellow hecklers. With that said I find your comments lack any merit and common sense. Any one who thinks what they see in a movie to be "real" has a lot of growing up to do. I don’t know what state you are even in but you should do yourself a favor and look up a good northern mantis school. Drop all of this movie nonsense and talk that you honestly have to know that you can’t back up with knowledge or experience. I’ll even point you in the right direction my brother. You need your eyes opened for you, like I said you are more than welcome to come see me or any of the schools I’m affiliated with. They will treat you right if you come with open ears and a good head on your shoulders.

mark

[Enforcer-]

well apperently muay thai and boxing beats all standup so...

and in a real fight a knee to the nuts wins so and there is no way to condition the nuts.

[Enforcer-]

http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17040

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
I don't fight. I hate getting my shins bruised (my number one rant about muay thai or any sort of kixkboxing). Most people here don't fight either though, so...

1. condition them more

2. until then, wear shin guards.

as for fighting, if there's nothing in your area, you can travel. There are events happening all the time around the country...In the mean time, if you're not doing anything yourself, how can you criticize anyone else?

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
well apperently muay thai and boxing beats all standup so...



I wasn't going to jump into this, but Enforcer has no idea.
I am a current student of ekaltenborn. I also spent a few years training in Muay Thai before I joined there and consider myself somewhat proficient in it. While some of the strikes are quite deadly, it is in no way the end all! I also boxed in the local PAL league. The mantis I've learned is far more superior in my eyes and can translate easily to a combat situation. Granted if the person you get into a brawl with has no formal training, yes you will do some damage. However, run into that person that knows mantis and he will climb up your arm and tap dance on your skull.

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
................and in a real fight a knee to the nuts wins so and there is no way to condition the nuts.

Once again you are wrong sir.

http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/ironcrotch.htm


In this book you can see pictures of the monks doing iron crotch training;
http://www.wle.com/products/b009.html

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cmcgee
However, run into that person that knows mantis and he will climb up your arm and tap dance on your skull.

that naturally applies to pretty m uch anything, if they are skilled.

[Enforcer-]

Sevenstar in another thread on the main forum didn't you say you only train in sport styles becasue tma sucks and is innefective and made fun of the horse stance? Who are you tot ell me I'm judging something when all I did was criticise a drill you criticised many many styles.

[ekaltenborn]

ENFORCER- ATLEAST HE TRAINS.... AND HAS EXPERIMENTED IN OTHER STYLES.... WHAT TRAINING HAVE YOU HAD?

[Enforcer-]

so do I. And Ralek doesn't train at all yet everyone took him seriously.

[ekaltenborn]

i dont know ralek....... but he obviously didnt talk some of the outlandish **** you talk.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
so do I. And Ralek doesn't train at all yet everyone took him seriously.

no we didn't... everyone knew he was a troll. However, he was a good one, so it was fun replying to him. If you noticed, he was banned as ralek, rolls, kodokan, and his four or so other names. We always knew who he was.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
Sevenstar in another thread on the main forum didn't you say you only train in sport styles becasue tma sucks and is innefective and made fun of the horse stance? Who are you tot ell me I'm judging something when all I did was criticise a drill you criticised many many styles.


lol, that was said in jest you assturnip. I said it because you accused me of being a guy who "only trains mma to be cool" or something to that effect. I've got like seven years of tma experience, so why would I walk bad about it? there are some training methods I don't agree with and I voice those, but I do not dis TMA other than that.

[SevenStar]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Enforcer-
naw, the truth is you wanna be cool like all the popular kids on the block.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



you're absolutely right. For my idiocy I will punish myself by holding a deep horse stance for 24 hours, after which I will sign up for a tkd class. Thank you for lighting my path O great one. And actually, don't you "train" muay thai? Pot meet kettle.

Go live your ghetto street fantasies through your wanna be thug friend...but do it in the ghetto, not the trailer park....and do it after dark...





sounds familiar, doesn't it??

[ekaltenborn]

enforcer....

why dont you go knee someone in the nuts......

[yu shan]

:D

LOL extremely funny SevenStar! I hope these gentlemen read page 2 of this thread and gave notice to Enforcers record (trolling). These kind of folks use to be sort of banned from our quality Mantis forum, perhaps things have changed. Oh well, this is all entertaining. Seven*, have you and Oso ever met? He says your one bad motha. I tried sending you a pm yesterday, your box was full. Gotta student relocated to Memphis, not much there, want to send your way. There is a Wah Lum club, guess I could send her there. Could you pm me either your # or your school # and address? Or if Shirkers1 and his group have a contact there, fire away. Thanks in advance.

"end all be all" Man, I`ve seen all types of fighters. I got shot down before for saying the following, but I`ve seen some street fighters in Tampa that would hand your lunch to ya. My experience with these fellows... they are sneaky lil f*cks, and somewhat out of shape. But to a trained fighter like most here, we do have an edge. Most of these pukes just fought dirty boxing. Although these street guys love fighting, I don`t think or it does not appear they train much for. Shirkers1 recentely brought up a love of my life CONDITIONING. When your shin is like a baseball bat and your adversary`s is like a baby`s behind... you get my drift. Our beloved Mantis teaches us many things doesn`t it, we are so very lucky. I do respect our brothers in other arts, because to me, it is the Man.

[SevenStar]

I didn't know my box was full - I'll clean it out today bro. However it turns out, we'll take care of your student. There's no wah lum club here that I know of though - where did you see that? As far as cma, the only game in town is a longfist school, a taiji school (the health stuff), a wushu school - but it is run by a husband and wife that are both certified... I think they were with the bejing wushu team at one time, but I could be mistaken, and a guy that teaches out of the Y in a nearby burb.

[yu shan]

Thanks Seven, she is a beginner (1year) but we bang alot, so she is use to the hitting. That is why I thought of you guys. I don`t want to send her to the wh shu, no offense. She is Russian and tuff, yet as pretty as the come. And she is looking to make some friends in your area. PM me your info.

[ekaltenborn]

yu shan-
where are you looking for a school for your friend? Im in Ohio and SHirkers is in Az...

[shirkers1]

http://submissions.newsfilter.org/show.php?id=9767

I think I saw enforcer in this video. Make sure you have the volume up.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
yu shan-
where are you looking for a school for your friend? Im in Ohio and SHirkers is in Az...

TN

[Enforcer-]

Strikers if you are such a tough guy as you claim to be and will go to a throwdown why did you ran away from bullshido when they were dissing you and your style? Did you go home to cry to mommy or something. Seriously all you have to do is post that youll show them what you are about in the throwdown section. But you ran away and never posted since.

[shirkers1]

Listen bro I never said I was a tough guy. I'm no walk in the park, and that's what all of you and your bullshido guys think by looking at a 10 sec clip of a basic drill. I simply said what you and your bullshido boys talk about isn't the end all be all and to think that way is retarded. I think I clearly stated that there is always somebody out there better, I know that and it's something that you guys should let sink in.

I tried to make a point and all I got was personal insults on that board. So why am I going to waste my time talking about something that those cats have no clue about. Like I said I'm not going to argue over an f'n keyboard. I'm listed and you know how to get a hold of me. Bottom line, YOU wanna talk or play around, whatever your little heart desires I'll be here. Enough said I've offered to "help" you out in a friendly manor by inviting you to come work out no strings. But you keep on trying to push buttons. I could give two ****s about you and what you say. All I ask is that you come visit so we can work this out face to face instead of on a computer then we'll see who talks and who listens.

mark

ps I'm going to tell my mother you said that by the way.

[shirkers1]

Bottom line, you have nothing to lose right. You already know what I look like, you think you know how I can fight. You saw some of my ****ty vids. So why not just take my offer and come train, workout, spar, whatever you want. The ball is in your court. I know nothing about you other then my opinions that you know jack shiat about fighting period. So this is the last time I acknowledge your existance unless you are excepting my offer to come train. Put up or shut up.

mark

[ekaltenborn]

i will admit i participated... but cmon enforcer.... theres 5 pages of this rhetoric.... give it up!

Suffice to say that Mark knows what he was talking about.... and move on.. maybe hes not your kind of fighter. I know the guy can use his praying mantis.

Then again... you are very obviously a bad ass..... take Marks offer... thats all i have to day.... money talks and bull**** walks!!!

[yu shan]

At least you had the stones to post your clips. It is unfortunate that they get picked apart. If I remember correctly, you did inform us all that these clips were very basic and the students participating were newbies. Thanks for putting them up, I hope to do the same in the future. I`m dealing with people in three differant states...so my clips will take me a little time to get together.

Mark, my next trip out west might not be until early next year. I have done way too much traveling this year. If anything, I need to get down to Florida to see my Shifu. I appreciate your offer on the digs that helps. Also as you should probably know, this is a friendly visit, there is no chip on my shoulder, and I had the ego beat out of me along time ago;)

[Enforcer-]

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=497083&FID=1&p=39

[shirkers1]

I didn't see any mantis or wing chun in that video.

[shirkers1]

Yu shan, of coarse it would be a friendly visit. I don't have an ego or any chips to brush off of my shoulder. You'll see that when you meet me. I'm so laid back it's pathetic. LOL.

I would be that way if mr enforcer showed up at my front door step as well. I'd give what I recieve. That's what learning is about, I'm a respectful person. I give respect, I only expect it in return. :) So no worries bro, we'll all work out, train and have a good time. If not I'll be at the mantis gathering next year as well. It is my home town so I'll be there with bells on.

ENFORCER
as for that clip with the "sparring" I've seen that before and I get a good laugh at that my self. I don't see any WC or mantis in that video either. But like I said quit throwing out "examples" and just show up, we'll work it out first hand.

mark

[ekaltenborn]

enforcer... if Ohio is closer... It will be my pleasure to extend the same hospitality as Mark...

as he said.... c'mon over.... we'll work it all out... no worries!,,,,,

[ekaltenborn]

Yu Shan,

If you make it Columbus, Ohio theres always a friendly place to hang out do some mantis and share knowledge here as well.

No ego's Just a place to hang out and do a little kung fu!

[SevenStar]

story for you guys - today, my coach, myself and a few other guys went to a tourney thrown by my old kwoon. I couldn't compete because I'm healing a fractured shin, but my coach competed.

shirkers - this part is for you:

I ran into a guy I know who trains CMA. he said he wanted to do more contact training and also possibly more grappling. I suggested that he drop by our school. He goes "no, you know how the mma guys are - they would trash everything I do and they are all just a bunch of know it alls", so naturally I responded telling him otherwise. (i told you, it happens to me all the time) we traded numbers and may get together to train.

yu shan, this is for you:

my coach won the tourney, taking a prize of 200 bucks. the guy that got second was from my buddy's plum flower school in biloxi. He made an awesome showing and had a few fantastic throws.

my PM box is clear now, and I PMed you with my info.

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=497083&FID=1&p=39

:rolleyes:
And thats all I have to say about that.........