chis sau tournament in Houston

[mexenergy]

Hello Everyone,


I'm starting this thread because I wanted to get some input on a possible tournament that my brother and I are trying to put together down here in Houston. We've got some ground rules but I didn't want this thing to just be a touch contact. I was leaning more towards full contact chi sau. The rules and contact I think might be the hardest thing to bring together. The date is 4/05 so it's coming close. We have to come up with everything and advertise soon. I'd like to include Austin and San Antonio which would mean all of Texas if possible. But if not, since this will be our first, Houston can be sufficient enough. The basis would be on sensitivity rather than brute force and random hands. So,what's up?

[stonecrusher69]

Why do we need a chi sao tournament,and for what purpose would it serve.?

[mexenergy]

Why not? I probably should have said Chi Sau Exhibition rather than tournament. And you're way up in Jersey. There's 4 traditional wc schools in Houston that I know of and it's a way try to bring everyone together for chi sau. Not that touch stuff. It has to be real and effective. Just landing a touch isn't going to win you the round nor striking hard to the face. I'd like it to be based on sensitivity. The rolling should be soft and slow and then an explosion into action. None of this this stiff and fast rolling stuff I see a lot on the internet mostly. Ours is based on sensitivity and I figure since we're all doing wc, there shouldn't be a problem with sensitivity. Points should be on execution of technique, softness and deflection.

[anerlich]

So what are the ground rules you came up with? You don't seem to have a clear idea of how this is meant to work. You say:

"I was leaning more towards full contact chi sau."

then

"It has to be real and effective. Just landing a touch isn't going to win you the round nor striking hard to the face. I'd like it to be based on sensitivity. "

Each sentence sort of contradicts the next.

Why would not a undeflected power shot to the face be an indication of superior technique?

"None of this this stiff and fast rolling stuff I see a lot on the internet mostly. "

What about fast and sensitive rolling stuff? Do people get disqualified or lose points if they roll "too fast"? Can they also be "too slow" as well?

"Points should be on execution of technique, softness and deflection."

But it also has to be "real and effective"? How do you judge, and for that matter define, the attributes and qualities on which you propose to judge competitors? Or will it be on some sort of artistic merit like gymnastics or diving?

Are you going to allow and give points to clinching, arm drags, duckunders, throws and takedowns, all of which are possible as extensions to the drill?

Have you considered the use of modern vale tudo gloves which allow the WC postures buts still give some protection against full contact. which is what you said you were leaning towards?

While this might be fun and a good way to bring WC people together, chi sao competitions always seem to me to smack of "fighting competitions for people who can't or don't want to fight." It's a sensitivity drill; IMO WC chi sao competitions and taiji push hands competitions just reinforce the prejudices of some that TCMA's are ineffectual as combat systems.

Still, mine is just one opinion, if you and some other guys can get it together and learn and have fun doing it, good luck.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Still, mine is just one opinion, if you and some other guys can get it together and learn and have fun doing it, good luck."
(Anerlich)

And an opinion I share as well.

mexenergy: Why not go the extra mile and make it a wing chun contact fighting tournament? (Punches, kicks, etc.)

Chi sao is a drill - not a competition...because fighting goes far beyond the rules (and range distance) of chi sao.

[mexenergy]

Yes. I may have written hastily. Yes about the gloves. There are some that I found that may work perfectly. I'm still working out the details. I'm not a professional, so I guess full contact was a little much. I don't want touch but it's not a grappling affair. Clinching. That doesn't sound wc to me & it would be foreign unless you also do those in your school. I was speaking specificly about traditional wc so it shouldn't have grabbing and clinching. Chi sau is a stand up game. We're considering sweeps but nothing above the shin and no throat shots. I have head protection in mind also.
An undeflected shot to the face? Exactly superior technique? I didn't say that it wouldn't score points, just not mean everything. It will be some kind of point system. Going to a clinch situation would definitely disqualify. That just means to me that the hands were superior and you had to result to grappling and tying up. No. Nothing like that. Chi Sau. I do plan on visiting some of the schools around Houston and get some input once I get the ground rules down. It's supposed to be fun. I don't want anyone getting hurt or any over macho inflated ego going in to hurt somebody. I don't want it to be like that either. I'm only in the input stages now.

[mexenergy]

chi sau is just the platform that i want the fight to start from.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Going to a clinch situation would definitely disqualify. That just means to me that the hands were superior and you had to result to grappling and tying up. No. Nothing like that. Chi Sau."
(mexenergy)


What about the possibility that the one with the superior hands decides to use the opening he created to grab someone and take them down with a throw or a sweep? Or into a fight-ending chokehold or armlock? Or follow up the grab with a knee strike?

I realize that most of these things lie outside the usual "rules" of chi sao...but so what?

Chi sao is not fighting...it's a training tool.

If wing chun is a fighting art - then why have a competition that features a training tool?

[mexenergy]

because that's not wc.

[anerlich]

That just means to me that the hands were superior and you had to result to grappling and tying up.

It could also mean the grappling WCer's hands were superior as the other guy couldn't stop him from closing or grabbing, but let's not argue.

It's certainly legit to restrict it to striking only, after all that's like boxing and kick boxing, though I don't totally agree with your comments about what WC is or is not - the forms and dummy have plently of grappling moves, throws, locks, etc. therein and these are certainly part of Wing Chun.

I'd recommend some sort of protection be mandatory, to avoid "accidental" (and accidental-on-purpose) stray head shots, which any serious trainee knows will happen quite a lot. Going "bare-knuckle" may lead to community complaints about overly violent tournaments and unwelcome publicity (ridiculous I know, but it has happened before). Either that or follow the Kyokushin-style no punches to the head rule, but that seems unduly restrictive.

[mexenergy]

I am showcasing wing chun chi sau. The stage is an exhibition about chi sau. It's an aspect of wing chun. Where in wing chun is there a clinch and a take down? Don't tell me. The fight will start from the chi sau platform. Wing Chun is not the showcase at this venue by the way.
How good are your reflexes from that position? Do you have to have to go to the clinch if the hands become too much and you can't defend? That's what I mean by sensitivity. I also would like to see what's out there in the city. Under friendly professional circumstances where I hope everyone has a mutual respect for eachother because we're all kung fu brothers. Ideally speaking, of course. I'd like to make it where a lighter opponent can chi sau a heavier one. If there's clinch and take downs, then I have to consider weight divisions and forget it. I meant an exhibition not tournamet when i started the thread. My brother said i was **** for doing that so I'm sorry.
I'm trying to come up with some rules to make it interesting but nothing like that. It'll still be wing chun cause that's what I'm trying to display.

[mexenergy]

Protection is essential. I myself will be out there I don't want to get hurt either.

[anerlich]

Where in wing chun is there a clinch and a take down? Don't tell me.

Far be it from me to give you information you don't want.

[Savi]

Master Benny Meng of the VTM has formalized "rules of engagement" that many tournaments (such as The Battle of Columbus and Taiji Legacy of the East Coast and Mid-West for example) have adopted and utilized over the past several years, and has proven to be quite effective and systematic.

Tournament Results (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739)

One of his students resides in the Houston area. If you are interested and open for conversation, you can contact the VTM.

www.vtmuseum.org has e-mail and phone information.

Good luck.

[planetwc]

I think you'd be better off calling it Full Contact Wing Chun sparring.

Just as you probably would not have "Full Contact" Lop Sau, I think it's better to stay away from "Full Contact" Chi Sao. Better to let people Gor Sau with a set of rules to minimize injury.