Moslem boxing->long fist-> in China

[SPJ]

A good post.

http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=northern&action=display&num=1097763371

Any comment?

Contemporary Wushu Long fist was based on moslem boxings and developed in the era of Republic of China.

Moslem boxings play a big role in the development of a lot schools of CMA.

Moslem is the largest minority in China over 1000 years.

Han is the majority.

[fa_jing]

no comments. Well, other than that was the most clear, revealing, and enlightening piece I have ever read on the muslim chinese fighting arts.


;)

[count]

A very good article. I wonder who wrote it? I was interested that hsing-i origins were also muslim. I find all northern styles have aspects of Chang Chuan.

And also

So universally recognized was pa chi as one of the most no-nonsense styles that even in our present era it was considered without equal. Witness the fact that a famous pa chi teacher was the instructor of Chiang Kai Shek’s, Mao Tse Tung’s and Sun Yet Sen’s bodyguards. That’s right the men who protected these three sworn enemies were all kung-fu brothers.

Any comments omar?

[mickey]

I think that article was written by Ted Mancuso of Plum Publications. It was featured in Inside Kung Fu.

mickey

[WanderingMonk]

Witness the fact that a famous pa chi teacher was the instructor of Chiang Kai Shek’s, Mao Tse Tung’s and Sun Yet Sen’s bodyguards. That’s right the men who protected these three sworn enemies were all kung-fu brothers.


Historically, inaccurate. Only CKS and MTT are sworn enemies. Dr. Sun is often used by both side for political advantages.

second, CKS's bodyguards used other arts initially. Liu Yun Qiao was only introduced to CKS after KMT fled to TW. He demonstrated high level skills and were brought into the presidential body guard service as an instructor and not as an actual body guard. The level of his invovlvement in the actual training varies depending on who is telling the story.

[omarthefish]

lol

I just tried to reply and I spat out 2200 characters....let's try this again.

I even disagree about Mao and Chang being anything close to "sworn enemies". This was a civil war, not a war of aggression. They fought for controll over China but the communist propoganda at least never painted the KMT as anything NEARLY as bad as the Japanese. He was mainly just labeled a coward. AND don't forget that the real goal was not to kill the other guy but rather to win over the hearts and minds of the Chinese people. Mao wanted converts not corpses.

My teacher proudly wears a Mao Ze Dong pin on his lapel even though his own teacher died fighting for the KMT. The general concensus I see here is that at the time the KMT seemed like the best bet. It was only later, especially during the Japanese invasion that the KMT gained it's reputation for corruption and for their amazing skill on the battle field at running away.

[SPJ]

On running away, some were and most were not.

Actually, hit and run guerilla warfare and tactics were perfected by Mao side.

A general walked away in Shan Dong without fighting the Japanese.

There were huge numbers of troops defending Nanjing. The leading group left first. The remaining forces disbanded themself.

There were more stories fighting to the bitter end and even won.

Tai Er Zhuang, etc.

Chinese Expeditionary force fighting in Burma to restore the "Burma road".

Underground activity and troops hiding in the country sides.

Japanese only controlled the city, railroads and coastal cities. The rest of the map was under Nationalist or Communist control.

The extensive underground network served to gather info, rescue downed US pilots on bombing runs to Japan, and some of US Army units were involved. These Army units later then became CIA.

Running away is not the whole story.

Peace.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]lol

I just tried to reply and I spat out 2200 characters....let's try this again.

I even disagree about Mao and Chang being anything close to "sworn enemies". This was a civil war, not a war of aggression.

let's see, Chiang's troops executed Mao's first wife and probably one of his offspring.

Mao's troops killed many of Chiang's "students'. Chiang was the commandent at the whampoa academy. These "students' wre his proteges and he felt a personal responsibilities for them.

There are deep animosity between the two. But, these are personal differences. national interest trump personal differences.

KMT troops might have retreated but 99.9% of the major battles against Japanese were fought by the KMT troops. CCP can only claim one major offensive, "one hundred regiment offsense". It became a diaster and the KMT had to do clean up. The ccp general was also punished after ccp came to power for this incident. something like wasting ccp's resources for struggle to win the control of china. So, may be KMT didn't always fair well, but at least they were trying to defend the country CCP spent more time building up its force than actually fighting. At the begininng of the war against japan, KMT had about 4 to 5 million troops. CCP had maybe 100,000 (at best). At the end of the war, KMT had 2 million, CCP had about 2 miliion. KMT lost a lot of its troops to fighting. what did the ccp do with its troops? growing at that rate, they weren't doing much fighting.

[WanderingMonk]

Omar,

I sent you a PM which link to a KMT's wwii doc. It is on falong gong site. you might not be able to download it. either way, wouldn't want people to think KMT didn't do its FAIR share of the fighting. You might want to delete these files after viewing b/c each video contain a 60 sec to 5 min falong propaganda added by the falong people

[mantis108]

If you look at the backer of these figures...

Dr. Sun's wife and Chiang's wife were sisters.

Dr. Sun's through his wife's connections gain the support of the US of A. His wife's or the sister in law's charm actually helped to recuit Chinese nationals from the US soil to join the Chinese Air Force which in turn helped to bring down certain warlord.

General Chiang's was trained in Japan. That means he knew a thing or two about the Japanese military. That's one of the reasons why he "thought" he could handle the Japanese invasion while the CCP was more of a threat. Who is to say that there was not influence of his wife's side which was closer to the US perspective?

BTW, some warlords at the time also had German connections.

Mao had the backing of the Red Soviet but they weren't that great of a military force except for its formidable size. Russia at the time was good at running away as well. It was a strategy the worked since the Napoleonian war.

In truth, every foreign power wants to support one side or the other so that they can continue to slice up the economic pie once the war is over.

I guess history 101 is that there is not such thing as black and white. There is always some gray in between.

Mantis108

[SPJ]

Excellent posts everyone;

1) There were many Nationalist generals battled to death, the units and number of soldiers died were too many to count.

On the other hand, not a single Communist general even got hurt let alone die. NOOOONE.

2) Mao himself said Japanese invasion helped him to have a relief from the KMT and grow in northern China.

On running away, it is a great topic.

Russia has 2 invincible generals. The general of huge land or space, and the general of winter snow.

Both the French and the German were defeated by both generals.

China also has 2 generals. The general of huge land and the general of guerilla warfare or field Army.

Mao was persued by KMT. The 2 generals helped him.

Japan invasion was overextended by the 2 generals.

:cool:

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
Omar,

I sent you a PM which link to a KMT's wwii doc. It is on falong gong site. you might not be able to download it. either way, wouldn't want people to think KMT didn't do its FAIR share of the fighting. You might want to delete these files after viewing b/c each video contain a 60 sec to 5 min falong propaganda added by the falong people

Good to see these other posts.

I didn't mean to say they didn't fight. I was reffering to their reputation for running away. Mao won the spin doctor game.

I just skimmed the new posts so far. And I'm pretty sure I can get the falungong sites. I figured out that banned sites can still generally be accesed through proxy servers. he heh he...


edit: Bummer. It took me trying 3 or 4 servers to get one that would let me have it and the one that did is only giving me 1kb/sec at the moment. I'll keep trying servers I guess. At least I know I CAN download it. It just may be slow. The high anononymity servers seem to often be a lot slower but are also sometimes the only ones that give me access.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk

There are deep animosity between the two. But, these are personal differences. national interest trump personal differences.


That's what I was thinking about in questioning the "sworn enemies" label. I tend to think their personal animosity also sprung from their strong personal views on how the country should have been run.

I'd like to see someone explain what is being referred to by the communists when they refer to the KMT "co-operating with" the Japanese in the northeast. That was one of the accusations that seemed to have stung the worst. Anyone care to explain what happened?

[SPJ]

A great question.

This is actually played into Mao's hand very well. It is a long story.

The Japanese Army (Kuang Dong Jun) was already in the northeast. The harbors, the railroads and mining rights were in their hands.

Many students and the general public including the communists were saying, this is the final. We go to war with Japan now.

General Zhang Xue Liang was only second to Chiang. We have the greatest number of Army in the world. We should fight and not wait.

Chiang wanted to buy time. Japan is from the sea, eventually it will be defeated by the countries from the sea, such as the British and the American (both are great powers of the sea).

China was not ready to take on the fight with Japan "alone".

Chiang was kidnapped by Yang Fu Chen. Communists negociated his release. Only after Chiang promised to fight Japan now and wait no further.

The incident of Xi'an showed the greater support of the people of China for Chiang during his captivity. Japan was alarmed to the fact that China is indeed unified and rallied under Chiang.

Japan then decided to invade China the next year with full force.

Chiang wanted to wait. Commie and general Zhang did not. Now Japan did not want to wait either due to Xi'an Si Jian.

Japan thought it is now or never.

The rest is history.

Phew, crammed tons of facts into a single post.

For more stories from all sides, need to dig documents from all sides.

:cool:

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by mantis108
If you look at the backer of these figures...

General Chiang's was trained in Japan. That means he knew a thing or two about the Japanese military. That's one of the reasons why he "thought" he could handle the Japanese invasion while the CCP was more of a threat.

b/c he was trained in Japan, Chiang understand the drastic technological/experience disparity between Japanese Imperial army and his own troops. Internal Japanese Imperial Army estimate that one of Japanese battalion has the same firepower/effectiveness of one Chinese division. The Internal Chinese estimate was one Japanese regiment = one chinese division. either way, it was going to be bad.

In the battle for shanghai, most chinese soldiers saw the tanks for the first time. all they had was their rifle. no artilery support, no air cover while Japanese had all those **** zeroes coming straight from four of its carriers. It was bloody. chinese lost one division per day at the height of the fighting.


Omar,

the cooperation would be probably be referring to withdrawing Zhang Xue Liang's army from the Dong-bei and let the Japanese take it over.

It wasn't an easy decision. Chiang knew if fighting starts, it is all out war, total war, victory or death. This is evident when he finally declare war, he was ready to fight to the bitter end. He retreated from nanjing to wuhan. then, wuhan to chong qing. Internally, there was contingency plan to retreat to tibet and continue the war from there.

He was buying time, get rid of ccp, consolidate the south and then push Japanese out. He needed money, trained military, and better weapons. He had his time-table but history and his opponents had theirs.

[SPJ]

Well said.

Agreed.

[SPJ]

Omar;

You may visit the Pavillion of Chiang's Capture (Zhuo Chiang Ting) in Xi'an.

Peace.

[omarthefish]

Those last 2 posts on the previous page were fantastic. Thanks.

Wandering Monk,

I found a server that gave me 15kbs and have already downloaded the first file. lol. I thought you were being paranoid when you told be to delete them after viewing. now I realize you were sut being practical. Nearly 50 megs/file and over 40 files....ha hah...Yeah. I'll be deleting after viewing. It's kind of too bad I can't afford a CD burner at the moment. I would love to save that documentary.

SPJ,

The pavillion is in Xi'an proper? Cool. A couple years ago I visited Lin Tong, not far from Xi'an and saw the hill where he was supposedly captured.

Back on the subject of Baji though....

I really appreciate drawing out the complexities of the war. Liu Yun Qiao was appointed to teach KMT guards after they fled to Taiwan but my own Shiye, Zhang Xiang Wu fought for KMT. And my teachers bagua comes down from Song Weiyi, who was also a KMT officer. Apperently he fought in the battle of Shanghai, lost and according to one article I have written by one of his comrades in arms from Xi'an, sent a fake telegram reporting his death so he could retire peacefully.

I would love to be able to better reconcile my teachers love for HIS teacher with his strong support of the CCP and fierce admiration for Mao.

[WanderingMonk]

...

[omarthefish]

That's not what I meant.

I am really clear why they like Mao in China. I have tried to explain it elsewhere but got flamed really really big. I was staggered by the level of intense hatred for him by the VAST majority of westerners. I like your presentation of him though. I couldn't sell him as a good guy.

There's the "Great Leap Forward" and the Cultural Revolution but overall I still tend to think without him .. . gotta run...sorry. more later.

edit: Finishing that thought...

ah...you said it better than I ever have. I usually try to compare him to the alternative. I also look at the KMT's ties with America. I do tend to wonder what kind of China we'd see with an American backed China. It sounds awfully good but American backing has not been consitently good for the countries in question. Taiwan obviously turned out pretty good but the context for them was very different.

And in the face of Mao's obvious charismatic power and...this is the part I tend to get flamed for...his strategic brilliance...he MAY have been the most capable man for the job of bringing China back to major world power status.

The thing I need to reconcile in my mind is how one person can have such high regard for BOTH Mao AND various KMT leaders. So the more the complications of the story get fleshed out the less contradictory it seems.

[WanderingMonk]

...

[mantis108]

I agreed with Wandering Monk.

Personally, I do not, and believe I will not, be able to forgive and forget what Mao or the CCP did for almost destorying Chinese culture as a whole. If you live in Canada and witness the sufferring of the native people who claim their culture was totally ruined by the "whiteman" ( I don't mean this derogatively), you will realize the importance of a solid and strong culture really means. Tempering with culture to me is a contempt of life itself. It is bad when foreigners do it on your people, it is FUBAR as a person (because of ego) to do it to your own people. That to me is real treason! That is enough to cancel out all the merits in "make a nation strong". Chinese are very flexible people. Most people don't see the hidden strength within flexibility that came from the Chinese culture. Mao did; that's why he and he mates could introduce their brand of "Communism", but he took advantage for his own ego and ambitions.

Anyway, sorry about the rant but idolizing a person, who was motivated by his own ego, is frankly a foolish enterprise. I don't mean to offend anyone. So I apologize in advance if I did.

Mantis108

[SPJ]

Omar;

Yes. It was in Lin Tong where there is a hotspring, somewhere on the outskirts of Xi'an.

:cool: