View Full Version : Daoist Reversion Theories“¹—Ç’m
I hesitate to post this here but I am searching for all perspectives.
So Daoism and Theories of Reversion(reverting to...)
Referencing the DDJ section 80
in relation to ZiranŽ©‘R(nature/spontaneity)and Deúº (virtue)
Revert to what exactly,simplicity? Dao“¹?
How can such reversion occur within Society?
Social Moral Policy = ?
All morsels of thought greatly appreciated.
BAI HE
10-15-2004, 07:01 PM
Bodiharma's "Blood Sermon" is a good start. Buddhist? hehehehehehehehehe
I prefer the Red Pine translations. Look "Red Pine" up on Amazon for his other translations.
At times Bodiharma's writings may seem to veer toward "conduct" in a changing world, rather than detachment, but it remains a great read.
Red Pine's translation of the DDj or TTC is first rate IMO. He includes commentary on each passage from other scholars through each passage as well.
Thanks Baihe, will follow that up.
I think you mean how to go back to the way or the natural way.
There are several things. It will be a long story to tell.
1) Personal conducts, If you are tired, you sleep. If you want to work out then work out. Follow your nature.
If you are sleepy, rest and do not keep on working.
2) Personal goals. If you pass the exam, fine. If not, there will be another exam next year, just take a rest and then go back to study more on the areas you are not good. No need to be angry or take pains in the "failures"
3) The recognition of the time (Tien Shi). There is time for everything. The summer and the winter etc. If it is your time to win, it is your time. If it is not, it is useless to "enforce" or "expect" a win.
4) Relationships with others (Ren He). Always cultivate that. Treat others as you like to be treated. Keep your words and be trustworthy.
5) Cultivate the conditions to win or achieve your goal. Or avoid the opposites. (Di Li).
A society built on people with these conducts or thinking maybe the most harmonious one and most successful.
De is the character or virtue of a person.
Such as Xin Yi He Ping Zhong Xiao Ren Ai.
These are virtues good personally and good for a society in general.
The military has Wu De.
The merchant has San De.
The politician has De, too.
On and on.
Sort of ethic codes. Codes of honors etc.
If there is no mutual agreement of certain conducts, there will be chaos.
The main reason Dao De Jing was written during the Warring States period 2500 years ago is this.
All the little kings are fighting for expansion of lands and wealths.
They only have "personal interests/profits" (Li) in their minds.
The idea spreaded down to the ministers. They are fighting each other.
The idea spreaded down to the families (Jia's). They are fighting among themself.
This pretty much tells the story of 1000 years under weak Zhou Wang.
Until one day, Qin Shi Huang ended all the divisions and fightings.
Li was the reason Dao and De were borned as antidotes.
San Xia Jiao Xiang Li. (everybody does things according to what is it in for him)
That is another reason that no self (non dualism) Buddhism spread in China over 2000 years ago, too.
Phew, I am cramming a lot.
:cool:
Thanks for the replys Spj
Originally posted by SPJ
I think you mean how to go back to the way or the natural way.
1) Personal conducts, If you are tired, you sleep. If you want to work out then work out. Follow your nature.
If you are sleepy, rest and do not keep on working.
How do you see this placed into Social Policy?I understand many take the writings of the DDJ on a indivdiual basis but others look at it from a Leadership base.
Some of what you have referenced doesn't seem to be directly related to the DDJ.Could you post any references to tranlations.
Originally posted by SPJ
5) Cultivate the conditions to win or achieve your goal. Or avoid the opposites. (Di Li).
Interesting I had always seen it as Win or achievement plays little importance in the concepts of WuweiÎÞΪ.In opposite do you mean cultivate the conditions to lose?To cultivate would be to have a purposefull action?
I will try to get an English copy of DDJ before I can reference to the sentence.
Over the years, there were many scholars interpreting DDJ in different contexts.
What I heard was (meaning legends) Sun Tzu favorite books are Zhou Yi (book of change) and Dao De Jing.
Dao De Jing is a book to train or cultivate character of a soldier (Zi Bin) according to Sun Tzu. (legends)
Yes, Wu wei means do nothing to "change". Whatever comes comes.
On the other hand, it also mean do things not to "harm" the nature of the environment and people.
A government places less tax and fewer conscription of labor and soldiering. So that people may rest, study, and contribute to economic. and not too many wars.
This is saying to all the rulers in the middle kingdoms at the time.
mantis108
11-01-2004, 04:10 PM
Extremely interesting and great question.
Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism all share something in common. They are mystic disciplines. They are meant to be experienced intuitively. That's the reason why meditation or introspection is highly emphasized in their corpus. But more importantly these disciplines are meant to "educate" [re:awaken] the person. Awaken to what? The awareness of the 4th Dimension is pretty central to all of them. Althought the langauages and lessons vary in cultures, they are basically along the same train of thoughts. Hinduism uses the parable of "Churning the milke ocean at the beginning of time" to illustrate the concepts; while Buddha expounded on Dukha (suffering). Believe it or not, suffering does directly relate to time. There are abundant references between the relationship of Dao and Time. One thing of note is that non of these discipline actually said what time is or is not. It remains to be experienced via the help of the lessons. Regardless of discipline, awareness of time and the experience of it is at the heart of the study.
Time to the untrained is often the foe or obstacle. Daoists start problem solving with Wuwei which I would roughly describe as "Effortless Dynamic Balance between chaos and harmony". This effortlessness can only be achieved through the realization that time is in fact not linear in nature. When a person realizes the true nature of time, he can let go of the self and become one with IT. This allows us to gain insight into the Divine purpose.
Imagine that a nation of people who are capable of this. Now I think you can understand the benefit. But then not all folks have access to this form of education either mentally or physically. Sounds elitist perhaps? Unfortunately, it is the truth. Can we facilitate that yes, but would we? Not really, simply because in politics, the P stands for pirority which is self intersets oriented. Today's politicians and so-called statesmen are but bottom feeding creatures; adding to the problem, time is perhaps the most expensive commodity (another politicians' favor chip) in modern day human experience. Shouldn't be that way, but it is. So...
Sorry about the rant. Hope I am making sense here. :)
Mantis108
Thanks for the comments Mantis
I think many here are missing the interrelation/interdependence? of De(virtue) to dao and concepts of wuwei and ziran.
Wang Bi translation of the DDJ focuses largely on de as he calls it profoundly internalised virtue.
"virtue is the power behind all things potential"(in relation to Sec 51)
"this honoring of the Dao and this esteening of virtue,none are ordered to do so, yet it always happens spontaneously"(sec 51
Ziran (spontaneous) action is only a product of wuwei (nonpurposfull action) if it is produced by one of profoundly internalised virtue.
As you said it is a hard task to place this in any education system,but then what chance has this of appearing in any polictician?
All religions or philosophies are based on knowing the nature of life and everything.
It is the understanding of how the nature works. How can we work harmoniously with other people and the nature.
Dao or way is the way of the nature.
Belief is to follow that and the only way.
Different religions are different paths/vehicles to the same final destination.
De is a agreed set of ways how people interact to the best benefit of everyone.
Politicians, laws and religions will found their principles on the greatest benefits of every one and not a certain interest group.
For example, there is a marsh area that supports birds and other wild life. Daoists respect the nature as they are. Buddhists respect life of all forms. Both will let it be.
A businessman or developer thinks about a shopping mall or a hotel with a amazing view, or apartment complexes.
Politician thinks about city revenue or tax the development will bring.
The environmentalists think there is a delicate eco-system at work. If we upset it, there will be disastrous repercussions in the weather, waste purification, etc.
The question is always that what shall we do to the greatest benefits of everything or how to bring about the harmonies between the heaven, people and the earth.
That is the Dao.
De and any other virtues or teaching are merely pointing to the directions.
If we as a people fit into the nature in harmony with everything else;
Or we have our ways and destroy other people, and everything else in the process.
:confused:
mantis108
11-02-2004, 01:47 PM
Thus we have the formula of the relationship between Dao and De ...
Dao=De X constant
where the constant is Wuwei X Wuwei (Ziran). So, we have
Dao=De x Ziran?
Hence the roots of Ziran is Wuwei? :D
But then that would make De a function of Dao which is my understanding in the first place. ;)
Seriously, politicans are but products of today's education systems which have greater interest in building a productive memeber of society than crafting a better person. BTW, polictical science is about balance of power mainly. They might be a little bit too intelligent for their own good but they are certain not wise in any way, form or shape. Knowledge and wisdom are after all different entities. They might think or feel that they do the world a favor by leaving monumental legacies (states, cities, constitutions, policies, etc...). These cherished "efforts/merits" of theirs are but residual energy signatures (Ye). Great for the masses or the "flocks" perhaps. In both Buddhists and Daoists eyes, these are but major obstacles to enlightenment. Nei Sheng Wai Huang (internally a Holy person and externally a benevolent ruler) is every Daoist's personal dilemma [not that there is really a choice ultimately]. Either case, you'll need a real person (Zhen Ren) beyond all constructs not a productive member of society - a construct within a construct.
Lao Tze's supposed advice for Confucius was that "do away with your pride and intention and you would be close to Dao." Now even a model teacher couldn't quite grasp Dao, what chance we mere mortals have? ;)
Regards
Mantis108
PS Thanks for sharing SPJ
Originally posted by SPJ
All religions or philosophies are based on knowing the nature of life and everything.
It is the understanding of how the nature works. How can we work harmoniously with other people and the nature.
Dao or way is the way of the nature.
Well this is certainly a common approach to Daoist thought.
I feel many seem to think this connection to Dao and nature? through the translation of the word ziran which in the modern context refers to nature.However within the DDJ it is used in its older meaning of spontaniety.If we look at the translation of nature and look at nature itself we find many things
1 Nature is not harmonious,its chaotic
2 Nature includes the human presence
If we are to be chaotic arn't we well and truly already there.
Originally posted by SPJ
De is a agreed set of ways how people interact to the best benefit of everyone.
This sounds a bit like you are confusing it with Kongzi's Li(standards of moral conduct)or yi (justice)
De is virtue, now how that virtue manifests is of considerable difference whether you subscribe to Laozi or Kongzi work.
Originally posted by SPJ
For example, there is a marsh area that supports birds and other wild life. Daoists respect the nature as they are. Buddhists respect life of all forms. Both will let it be..
I think this is a bad representation of both Daoist and Buddhist thought.
There is much in the texts to suggest that Daoist in particular would weigh differing persceptives along with outcomes in order to facilate wuwei(non purposefull action)which gives people somewhat of a paradox straight away.
Originally posted by SPJ
The question is always that what shall we do to the greatest benefits of everything or how to bring about the harmonies between the heaven, people and the earth.
That is the Dao..If we as a people fit into the nature in harmony with everything else;
Unfortunatly I don't feel the concept of Dao has an equity clause.I don't feel Daoism is after the greatest of anything,IMHO harmony of everything is not Dao,fiting into nature is also not Dao. If we are to use the word nature (which as I said is not a refelection of ziran) then how are we not already part of nature or Dao for that matter.These concept do not act indepently of human presence.If anything we (humans) are interrelated and interdependent(= unity),a point that I feel is at a base of Daoism and other philosophies.
Originally posted by mantis108
But then that would make De a function of Dao which is my understanding in the first place.
True but unfortunately too many people simply fall back into the pharse everything comes from Dao,without explanation of what relation any thing has to anthing.
these are but major obstacles to enlightenment. Nei Sheng Wai Huang (internally a Holy person and externally a benevolent ruler) is every Daoist's personal dilemma [not that there is really a choice ultimately]. Either case, you'll need a real person (Zhen Ren) beyond all constructs not a productive member of society - a construct within a construct.
Hence my staying (and this thread thankfully) away from issues of individual self reflection and concentrating on elements of Daoist policy in relation to leadership and government.
Please carry on everyone
Next Q
Zhuangzi txts seem to be more intergrated with his time(in that he answers and debates topic within Confucian txt)yet seem to appeal even more to relativist thought? How do you think ZZ take on Social Policy would manifest?
TaiChiBob
11-04-2004, 06:08 AM
Greetings..
There is no "purposeless action" (WuWei).. it is the purpose that warrants consideration..
Tao is the store-house, the source.. an endless bounty of potential without purpose.. it is without form, shape or mass, but.. without it there is no form, shape or mass.. it is everything without "being" everything..
Basic life purpose.. to exist, to experience.. so there is purpose in all things..
Virtue.. misunderstood.. a set of arbitrary values with design and purpose.. a control device for consensus of social order..
Nature.. spontaneous random order.. spontaneous: of itself it is so.. random order: like the veins in a leaf or the grain in wood..
Nature (spontaneous random order) is the model.. in a perfect world.. virtue is designed to allow for maximum balance of natural experience in the imperfect balance of social relationships..
Tao.. is the way things "are".. Virtue is the way we want things to be.. (there is a subtle conflict, here)..
Life is a delicate balance of Tao (nature: spontaneous random order).. and the necessity to mingle with society.. is humanity's creations (ie: buildings, roads, dams, etc..) any less its nature (Tao) than a beaver's dam or a bird's nest or a herd's trail their nature?.. The simplification is internal, it is the realization that we cannot be contrary to Tao, we can only affect the balance of chaos and harmony.. we will swing between chaos and harmony like a boatman uses the currents and winds to make his way.. wisdom is in the awareness of life's currents and winds.. and, what we intend our journey to be..
Be well..
Good post.
There are 2 approaches to everything.
1) To see the differences and classify.
2) To see the sameness and find the truth.
Truth would be universal and all encompassing.
My posts are always looking for the sameness or similarity in everything.
Christian A sees the sunrise and is excited about the beginning of the day, birds chirping, practicing Tai Ji. Everything is beautiful and created by God with love. Grateful for life and everything.
Buddhist B sees all these will end, therefore impermanent. He is upset that the sun will certainly set and coldness and darkness will arrive. BB meditates, thinks and sees thru everything in life. There are death, sickness, aging. There are sufferings. Sufferings are from people attachments to health, wealth, power, all the impermanent things in life. Detach and seek the true meaning of life and transcend the sufferings and attachments.
I agreed to both. I said I am excited to see the first Sunrise and I enjoyed the warmth brought by the last ray of a setting sun.
Daoist C says let us go with the nature and be spontaneous. Yes I work during the day. I sleep and rest at night. I will not sleep in the day, or buring midnite oil or nite life in the clubs etc.
I am happy I am alive. I will accept when old, sick and ultimately leave. It is time to live. It is time to live. It is time to go. It is time to go.
Dao De Jing is the most widely read book in the world. Not Bible. Not diamond sutra.
There are many interpretations all along.
Again, in the study clubs, we enjoyed finding the sameness. Some folks like to say this is this, therefore it is not that. And you are wrong. It in itself is Wei.
Wuwei'er tends to focus expressing his or her views and explain why.
Wuwei, to me is no manupilation or not insisting on being a certain way.
I have been a veterinarian since graduation in '85.
I may do research, work for the government, or be a private practitioner. If the opportunity arises, what ever is the most opportune thing to do, (work in the day, sleep at nite), with the least effort or resistence, I embark on it. If I succeed, I make it, if not, I may try something else. A work is a work. No better or worse.
Originally posted by SPJ
There are 2 approaches to everything.
1) To see the differences and classify.
2) To see the sameness and find the truth.
Truth would be universal and all encompassing.
My posts are always looking for the sameness or similarity in everything.
No offense SPJ but this is contradictary as below you clearly attempt to classify,generalising all.
I think its fine to strive for truth (whatever that is) and universality but its strange to represent this notion by reverting to classifing.
Originally posted by SPJ
Christian A sees the sunrise and is excited about the beginning of the day, birds chirping, practicing Tai Ji. Everything is beautiful and created by God with love. Grateful for life and everything.
Buddhist B sees all these will end, therefore impermanent. He is upset that the sun will certainly set and coldness and darkness will arrive. BB meditates, thinks and sees thru everything in life. There are death, sickness, aging. There are sufferings. Sufferings are from people attachments to health, wealth, power, all the impermanent things in life. Detach and seek the true meaning of life and transcend the sufferings and attachments.
I agreed to both. I said I am excited to see the first Sunrise and I enjoyed the warmth brought by the last ray of a setting sun.
Daoist C says let us go with the nature and be spontaneous. Yes I work during the day. I sleep and rest at night. I will not sleep in the day, or buring midnite oil or nite life in the clubs etc.
I am happy I am alive. I will accept when old, sick and ultimately leave. It is time to live. It is time to live. It is time to go. It is time to go.
Anyhoo I take that most here see concepts of Wuwei and ziran as part of individual transformation rather then concepts that can be applied to a control issue?
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Virtue.. misunderstood.. a set of arbitrary values with design and purpose.. a control device for consensus of social order..
I don't think arbitrary is appropriate for the Daoist interprtation of De,nor from many other interpretations.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Nature.. spontaneous random order.. spontaneous: of itself it is so.. random order: like the veins in a leaf or the grain in wood..
Thats a nice analogy but only accurate only to one's percpeption even in chaos there are often patterns which lead to duality of concepts and their overiding unity.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Nature (spontaneous random order) is the model.. in a perfect world.. virtue is designed to allow for maximum balance of natural experience in the imperfect balance of social relationships..
OK as I refered to in another post,spontaneous random order does not particlualy produce a conhesive society,I think you are suggesting that Daoism is slightly antisocial.Nature is anything but conhesive harmonious or peacefull yet Daoist passages make reference to these as end goals.
Out of time will come back.
Thanks
For arguement sake;
The sameness in all Christians is the belief that life and everything is created by God in "Genesis".
The sameness in all Buddhists is the belief of the impermance of life and everything.
The sameness in Daoists is the belief that everything moves or changes with time and space.
I did not say that the three groups are the same yet.
You have first assumed that people are the same and that I classify them into three.
You have agreed that people are the same in the first place.
You have to assume the same before you can set a criteria to classify.
If there is no the sameness, there is no difference.
As far as generalizations, we can even use one word or many single words.
Christian: love, forgiveness, salvation, on and on; and all based on the greatest love of all from the God.
I will say Christian is love.
Buddhist: impermanence, indifference, concentrations, good deeds, good speech, good actions, on and on; all come from knowing the truth of impermanence and no self.
I will say Buddhist is non-selfness.
Daoist: nature, cosmos, people, microparticles in an atom, on and on, all follow the law/path of the nature.
I will say Daoist is nature.
I said many and many sameness in each three.
I did not say that the 3 are the same yet.
K;
Wuwei or Ziran is not only a personal feat, it is also about how to relate oneself with other people and the nature.
The rulers study DDJ to rule the subjects.
Sun Tzu studied DDJ to rule the soldiers.
It may appear just about individual transformation. It is not.
Politician studied DDJ to have a platform or forum to seize power.
It is a book that has many inferences to different people.
Lao Tzu and Zhuang Tzu both talked about how the rulers should be running the countries.
Many rulers, generals, politicians and Lao Tzu and Zhuang Tzu etc did not agree with you that DDJ is only a book for personal betterments.
Go ahead argue with them all.
:D
Originally posted by SPJ
Wuwei or Ziran is not only a personal feat, it is also about how to relate oneself with other people and the nature.
The rulers study DDJ to rule the subjects.
Sun Tzu studied DDJ to rule the soldiers.
It may appear just about individual transformation. It is not.
Politician studied DDJ to have a platform or forum to seize power.
It is a book that has many inferences to different people.
Lao Tzu and Zhuang Tzu both talked about how the rulers should be running the countries.
Many rulers, generals, politicians and Lao Tzu and Zhuang Tzu etc did not agree with you that DDJ is only a book for personal betterments.
Go ahead argue with them all.
SPJ I don't know how you could have missed this but I am contending that the DDJ is not soley for "personal betterments".I understood you in particular to be arguing most of your thinking from the base that it was derived for "persaonal betterments".
Hence my question
Originally posted by Ka
Anyhoo I take that most here see concepts of Wuwei and ziran as part of individual transformation rather then concepts that can be applied to a control issue?
and my constant references to social policy and interpretation of the DDJ from a leadership base.
You seem to have done a about face in relation to your first posts.
BTW I totally agree that wuwei and ziran are used in relation to self and others perhaps to the extend that unity is achieved.Providing the concept of interdependence of all things.
However to implement this into social policy or perhaps and educational system was the original Q?
Originally posted by SPJ
Christian: love, forgiveness, salvation, on and on; and all based on the greatest love of all from the God.
I will say Christian is love.
Buddhist: impermanence, indifference, concentrations, good deeds, good speech, good actions, on and on; all come from knowing the truth of impermanence and no self.
I will say Buddhist is non-selfness.
Daoist: nature, cosmos, people, microparticles in an atom, on and on, all follow the law/path of the nature.
I will say Daoist is nature.
I said many and many sameness in each three.
I did not say that the 3 are the same yet.
OK I'm not sure why you even brought up a comparative evaluation of other doctrine,I presume to classify how you see each.Which is still contra to
Originally posted by SPJ
2) To see the sameness and find the truth.
Truth would be universal and all encompassing
Which I sort as think is a big reach in philosophy to proclaim you see truth.
I think your point is that there are more simularities then differences?If yes, cool,I agree and understand
Originally posted by SPJ
You have first assumed that people are the same and that I classify them into three.
You have to assume the same before you can set a criteria to classify.
Nope,I said that you have classified(through a generalisation as I am sure many B C D would have varied responses) by doing this you have already created a dicothomy.Getting further and further away from your sameness /truth comment.
Originally posted by SPJ
If there is no the sameness, there is no difference.
Going to dwell on this for a moment.
K;
I agreed to all the points that you mentioned.
Be patient.
It usually takes me several posts to finish my point.
1) Yes, you are thinking that I classified the same people into 3 different groups.
I started with the fundamentals of 3 doctrines. Or the sameness in each doctrine.
2) I am going to develop the "sameness" among the 3 now.
The plot is that the same truth is perceived by the 3 doctrines.
Love (Christian) is out of non-selfness (Buddhist) and is part of Nature (Daoists).
This is a real life story. It happened in August, 1987.
There was a plane crashed soon after takeoff.
The mother covered the girl. The girl was the only survivor of the crash.
Mother loves (Christian) for her daughter so much and sacrifices (non-selfness) herself. In the nature (Daoism), there are many examples of mother protecting the offspring or died in the process of giving birth to the offspring.
It is a personal feat of a mother protecting the girl over her life.
Christians said it is a miracle. God saved the girl and the mother is next to the God with angels.
Buddhists said it is karma.
Daoists said it is following the Dao of the heaven.
The biology of it is to pass on the gene, survive and propogate.
The truth is the same and only differed by interpretations by whom, the biologist, Christian, Buddhist, or Daoist.
I am merely pointing to the fact that the truth is the same.
:)
The mother may not read the Bible, and not know Buddha or Dao of the heaven or biological importance of passing on the gene.
She knows what she has to do.
1) The government and the society are groups of people. How to function to the greatest benefits of the group and the individuals. Need more posts.
A Christian mom, a Buddhist mom and a Daoist mom would do the "same" in the "same" situation.
A non-church-going, non-temple-going, non-Daoism-knowing, non-biology-graduated mom would do the "same" in the "same" situation.
TaiChiBob
11-05-2004, 05:59 AM
Greetings..
Existence IS duality.. that which exists and that which doesn't.. yin/yang..
Thats a nice analogy but only accurate only to one's percpeption even in chaos there are often patterns which lead to duality of concepts and their overiding unity. Precisely.. that is the net effect of "random order".. although the grain in wood has an orderly appearance, it is random in its comparison to another piece of wood.. although the veins of leaves display a similarity, there is no predictable precision..
I don't think arbitrary is appropriate for the Daoist interprtation of De,nor from many other interpretations. Okay.. but, that illustrates my point.. "virtue" is a subjective value, and as such is arbitrary.. i cannot reason a universal constant that satisfies virtuous concepts.. "virtue" is a set of agreed upon standards that vary culture to culture, and time to time.. it is a notion of human contrivance and does not exist outside the human experience.. "virtue", at best, is a control device used to manage "karma" or consequences..
Nature is anything but conhesive harmonious or peacefull yet Daoist passages make reference to these as end goals. Hmmm.. how much time do you spend in nature, i mean really.. i am a professional land surveyor with 35 years of experience in the field.. i have surveyed in some of the most wild and remote places in this country and several foreign countries.. and i marvel at the magnificent symphony of nature's harmony.. what you have done is projected your values on nature and failed to experience it without prejudice.. it's like calling Florida's hurricanes "bad" (the storms, not the college football team.. that's another story..) a hurricane isn't "bad" it's just a natural event.. inevitable.. beautiful in its display of power and humbling in its reminder of our place in this world.. " Nature is anything but conhesive".. it has supported life on this planet for millions of years, evolved into an intricate network of symbiotic relationships, and you claim it's not cohesive.. Absolutely, Taoists look to nature as a model.. and wise of them to do so.. the last quoted statement is evidence of a lack of awareness regarding the "way" of nature.. it really doesn't add validity to your perspective of Taoism..
"Truth".. another set of arbitrary values and contrived standards.. is it a universal constant? an accurate accounting of an event? First, "truth" is a human intellectual concept.. second, each person will interpret or perceive an experience differently, maybe only slightly different or radically different.. like the experience of electing a president, radically differing perspectives of the same experience.. so, i assert that "truth" is the experience itself, distinct from whatever we arbitrarily label or judge it..
It is, what it is.. any other descriptions are abstractions of its simplicity..
Be well..
mantis108
11-05-2004, 11:54 AM
Wuwei and ziran is not necessarily a mere individual enterprise. The whole idea of Wuwei and Ziran is that it has to come from the grassroot level IMHO; hence; the note in DDJ that the people all claims Ziran. The country is governed "Ziran er ran" - naturally. In otherwords, everyone has a responsibility right down to the weakest link of the society however the society is structured (ie class, caste, republic, socialistic, etc...) It is the coming together not by ****genization nor through amssimilation but by communication and recognition (spontaneously as Ka would put it). In other words, it is not about cause and effect.
Take Canadian Healthy Care system for example. Some "elite" groups [re: politician] perceived that it is a great idea and benefit for the entire country and it would be an outstanding legacy (an egotistical plight). It would also be the show piece for Canadian identity (appeals to the pride of the mass). If you look at the financial burdon, the liability and the fallacy of this failed experiment today, you would think that Canadians are really the "Sick people of North American". People use the health care system as if there is no tomorrow. They look to the politicans and doctors for answers. They paid money in the form of taxes, so now health, which is a personal responsability in the first place became someone else problem. The fight between the provincial and federal government over funding issues are endless. The sick idea becomes a sickness. That's the irony the health care system is ill. :rolleyes: It all thanks to a brilliant "social policy" concocted by "Je ne sais quoi". :( The only good that it does is the perception that politicians (bloodsuckers anyway) are working very very hard to meet your demand. Personally, it is a comedic play at best but people love it. [Darn, where is sheakspear when you need him ;)]
Anyway, in this respect Daoist idea is not that far from Confucian. It all starts with individual responsibility. The language might differ seemingly drastic but in essence they are on the same path.
Mantis108
Ka;
Thank you for being patient.
You may replace the sameness and the truth with the way or Dao in my previous posts.
There are 2 parts of DDJ,
De/Te, virtue. There are 3,041 characters. according to texts uncovered in Ma Wang Tui.
Dao/Tao, way. There are 2,426 characters.
I am not claiming to be a professor in history. However, I study Chinese literatures since the age of 6.
Each chapter in DDJ;
There is a key concept with several levels of examples.
Lao Tzu used the river or the ocean analogy a lot.
In chapter 61 in De part,
The small state vs the large state;
The thousand little streams will travel lower to enter the river and then the ocean.
The large state is to unite and rear.
The small state is to enter and serve.
The state may be a leader, a general, a country or the planet earth and the galaxy or nucleus in the atom etc.
China and its neighboring states.
China seeks the needs and rears the needs of a small state.
Afganstan; public schools, agriculture, phone, electricity, water supplies etc. rice and flour in times of need.
Korea; power plants recently, some military, financial assistances since thousands years ago.
Do not want to dwell on politics too much.
Every subject we discuss, there will be differing opinions with passions.
That is why I use the faiths, Christian, Buddist.
Anyhoo, if you pay attention to the needs of others and attend to them. The others will follow you or enter and serve you.
The lower river and the ocean being lower are actually taking over.
Both small and large states have what they need.
This is the big difference between Wang Dao and Ba Dao.
Wang Dao, the way of a king or a sage or a saint, is to see what people or countries need and attend to them.
Ba Dao, the way of a power or expansionism, is to take everything by force and not giving anything back. For example, sending soldiers to occupy, rule, take away the resources and disregard the needs of the people.
Wang Dao is being a true king or ruler without actually ruling.
Ba Dao is to rule with force and actually not ruling.
Lao Tzu used the mother of the world analogy a lot.
Being a big state or a leader is like being a mother.
If the ruler takes care of his or her people like a mother looking after the children constantly, and even sacrifice her life.
Japan invaded Korea in the late 19 century. China went to war and lost the Bei Yang fleet.
Qing China won over the French, however, it ceded Vietnam and French had French Indochina.
Thruout history and even today, China is still the largest supporter of Korea (North) and (Socialist) Vietnam.
China try to help their economic reforms and "walk" away from the orthodox Stalin/Lenin/Mao communism.
No more politics. J'ai promis.
:D
jun_erh
11-16-2004, 04:42 PM
just some taoist book reviews and stuff (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3VPRWEPH6C823/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-7509693-9603016?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
from a guy on amazon
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Hmmm.. how much time do you spend in nature, i mean really..
Lots,are you people for real?
Is this like a ****ing contest where I have to say the time spent
in nature to gain crediability?
You may see nature(whatever that is ) as peacefull,but I don't feel it is anything resembling that.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
i am a professional land surveyor with 35 years of experience in the field.. i have surveyed in some of the most wild and remote places in this country and several foreign countries.. and i marvel at the magnificent symphony of nature's harmony.. what you have done is projected your values on nature
Sort of like what you your're doing right,oh hang on the difference is you're the holder of truth.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
and failed to experience it without prejudice
So your without prejudice and bias and have no social conditioning that influences your life and social relations?
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
.. it's like calling Florida's hurricanes "bad" (the storms, not the college football team.. that's another story..) a hurricane isn't "bad" it's just a natural event.. inevitable.. beautiful in its display of power and humbling in its reminder of our place in this world..
I didn't refer to the word "bad",its you gents that wish to distinguish good vs bad.Howwever calling a storm beautifull after veiwing it on TV is different from being stuck in one.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
" Nature is anything but conhesive".. it has supported life on this planet for millions of years, evolved into an intricate network of symbiotic relationships, and you claim it's not cohesive.. Absolutely, Taoists look to nature as a model.. and wise of them to do so.. the last quoted statement is evidence of a lack of awareness regarding the "way" of nature.. it really doesn't add validity to your perspective of Taoism..
Ofcause my lack of awarness,I am constantly amazed at how people demonize others.You see "nature"(of which we are apart) as "good" as a role model(as in better then other,a judgement) I see it as chaotic,nonharmonious,lacking in conhension,this does not refer to good or bad.
So.. surporting life = conhesion
Originally posted by SPJ
De/Te, virtue. There are 3,041 characters. according to texts uncovered in Ma Wang Tui.
Dao/Tao, way. There are 2,426 characters.
Yeh,umm,why have you written this?
Originally posted by SPJ
I am not claiming to be a professor in history. However, I study Chinese literatures since the age of 6.
Wow, you should really consider why you felt the need to post this.Study at 6 huh,let me guess indepth analysis of Ah Q.
Originally posted by mantis108
Wuwei and ziran is not necessarily a mere individual enterprise. The whole idea of Wuwei and Ziran is that it has to come from the grassroot level IMHO; hence; the note in DDJ that the people all claims Ziran. The country is governed "Ziran er ran" - naturally. In otherwords, everyone has a responsibility right down to the weakest link of the society however the society is structured (ie class, caste, republic, socialistic, etc...) It is the coming together not by ****genization nor through amssimilation but by communication and recognition (spontaneously as Ka would put it). In other words, it is not about cause and effect.
Agreed that individual responsibility plays a important role,but how to make individuals embrace social responsibilty?Promoting spontansous action seems to clash with social or moral obilgations.I think we woudl all agree on certain moral and social responses that are considered universal and perhaps needed.
Originally posted by mantis108
Anyway, in this respect Daoist idea is not that far from Confucian. It all starts with individual responsibility. The language might differ seemingly drastic but in essence they are on the same path.
I also see Daoist and Kungzi's thought as being very simular,maybe with differing methods.Although I find that Confucian doctrine clearly marked out procedure for implenmentation into social policy.
To know;
Even a new born infant knows to cry when in hunger or in need (of changing), to smile or giggle when stimulated.
How more nature can you be?
Yes; at age of 6, you are expected to learn some Chinese characters.
Literatures are words, descriptions or expressions.
If the Dao can be said, it is not Dao.
The Dao may not need words.
Ah Q has nothing to do with knowing the nature or the nature to know.
Or I should say Chinese reading comprehensions or writing for that matter.
How high Ah Q do you need to know you are hungry, you are cold, you feel right or wrong?
Ah Q may be required to learn to say words to describe how right, how wrong or how hungry you are.
All the social or ideology conditioning occur how early in life?
:confused:
The needs of a society;
The needs of a individual;
The needs of a ruler;
The needs of the universe;
The needs of a defined ideology;
The needs of a "nation';
The needs of a family;
How much schooling or Ah Q do you need to explain?
Even a DNA or RNA virus;
Even a single cell bacterium;
They all know to get close to benefit and avoid detriments.
How high Ah Q does a virus or a bacterium possess?
Do they read Chinese?
Do they know DDJ?
Do they know Dao? May be not De?
:confused:
My point is that people know what they need to know.
Any ruler should be on the same side of the people and lead.
Do not enforce your own agenda over those of the people.
That is how you may go back to the nature of the people.
Originally posted by SPJ
Ah Q has nothing to do with knowing the nature or the nature to know.
Or I should say Chinese reading comprehensions or writing for that matter.
How high Ah Q do you need to know you are hungry, you are cold, you feel right or wrong?
Ah Q may be required to learn to say words to describe how right, how wrong or how hungry you are.
:confused:
:rolleyes: SPJ, the reference to Ah Q is not a misspelling of IQ rather a reference to Lu Xun's The True stories of Ah Q. A text that anyone with even a little knowledge of chinese lit would be well aware of.
Originally posted by SPJ
Any ruler should be on the same side of the people and lead.
Do not enforce your own agenda over those of the people
Yes I can see how you believe this to be the core of Daoist policy.As I have repeatively asked I am after a little more then rehashing of common analysis.I would like to hear how you would place this into action.But please don't bother,as I said, I really shouldn't have posted here.
Sorry. My education in Taiwan and in the States do provide me enough understandings of politics.
However, I promised not to meddle in the current political affairs. Politics seems to be a dirty word. I have to resist the temptation of getting involved constantly.
Here is a good example.
President Bush just appointed a guy as the new chair for the Dept. of Commerce.
He escaped from Cuba in 1960. He started out as a truck driver for Kellog. He then became the executive for Kellog and turned the company around from red ink to profit. He enjoyed a lot of respects from the business community.
This is a good appointment.
On the other hand, if a Harvard scholar is appointed and he never works even as a bus boy. He tries to enforce a lot of agenda based on theories?
If you elect a lot of people from the circles of people, then the government will be very close to the people.
Dr. Sun Yet Sen said election or appointment is to elect people that has the qualification or capability.
Xuen Xien Yu Nen.
If the policy is based on the needs of the people, it certainly would have the support of the people.
And the leader is following the Dao.
TaiChiBob
11-30-2004, 06:15 AM
Greetings..
Ka:
Qoute_____________________________________________ __Lots,are you people for real?
Is this like a ****ing contest where I have to say the time spent
in nature to gain crediability?
You may see nature(whatever that is ) as peacefull,but I don't feel it is anything resembling that.
__________________________________________________ _
LOL, no that was a rhetorical question.. and, yes, i do see nature as very peaceful, organized, symbiotic, and as an excellent role model.. but, that is a matter of perspective which we don't share..
Sort of like what you your're doing right,oh hang on the difference is you're the holder of truth. .. well, yes.. i am the holder of "my" truth, just as you are the holder of "your" truth.. and, our "truths" differ.. what i did not do is come in here asserting that "nature" is chaotic and a poor role-model and not cohesive.. what i did do, with a little sarcasm, is suggest that nature has remarkable lessons for humanity and its social order.. interesting how this theory has survived thousands of years and countless affirmations, could it be that all this experience is in error?
So your without prejudice and bias and have no social conditioning that influences your life and social relations? Hardly, i am as prone to prejudice and indoctrination as the next person.. but, i have devoted a substantial amount of time and experience to meditative practices that minimize that influence.. and, in that state and from that perspective nature functions far better than human contrivances.. examine the evidence, it's quite obvious..
I didn't refer to the word "bad",its you gents that wish to distinguish good vs bad.Howwever calling a storm beautifull after veiwing it on TV is different from being stuck in one. Please pay attention to my location, Orlando Florida, we have just experienced 3 serious hurricanes real time.. and, yes, even the destruction has a natural beauty to it.. for your information, i have no solid concept of "good/bad".. i sense that there are only consequences, and our arbitrary labels of "desirability"...
Quote:____________________________________________ ___
Ofcause my lack of awarness,I am constantly amazed at how people demonize others.You see "nature"(of which we are apart) as "good" as a role model(as in better then other,a judgement) I see it as chaotic,nonharmonious,lacking in conhension,this does not refer to good or bad.
So.. surporting life = conhesion
__________________________________________________
No one is demonizing anyone, LOL.. are you feeling persecuted?.. we are having a dialogue.. What i see is that nature does support life quite well, i see that humanity challenges this harmony in so many ways that it may begin to not support life as we know it for much longer.. humanity is the new kid on the evolutionary block, and we are not contributing very well to the neighborhood.. as i said, i don't have a solid concept of "good/bad", and i don't see nature as either.. what i do see is a model of symbiosis, harmony and cohesion.. this model has supported life on this planet for hundreds of millions of years.. Now, humanity arrives with its great plan to control nature, and for the the first time in the planet's history, a single species has the ability to terminate millions of years of natural harmony.. you see it one way i see it another.. go figure..
Be well....
Then perhaps you might consider the label of enviromental relativist.
Going back to the original Q, then anaylsis of Ziran,which I think for you is a direct reference to nature.
And so you see many of the passages within the DDJ embracing nature as a role for government.
I contend that this is a common misinterpretation
Another translation is refering to the true nature of humans(the natural as W Bi often refered to) in the context of debate between Xunzi and Mengzi (Confucians who debated that Human nature was either inherently bad or good)
The natural state of humans.What is this? How do we foster this?
Possibly through non interferrence(non intentioned action/wuwei) form of government.
How to implentment this?
As I said I think the focus here should return to De virtue and its importance within Daoist(and other of the period) writings.
A ruler rules by fostering virtue, virtue of true human nature(reversion to authentic nature),How does one do this?
Do some more later
TaiChiBob
12-10-2004, 06:28 AM
Greetings..
Then perhaps you might consider the label of enviromental relativist. Why? Why do i need a label? I seldom let the "label" define the situation.. things are what they are, labels only confine the experience to preconceived notions.
As I said I think the focus here should return to De virtue and its importance within Daoist(and other of the period) writings. And, here is another problem with "labels".. we do what we do to preserve harmony, insure survival, and foster a sense of security (not necessarily in that order).. we are being "human".. just like when a wolf howls at the moon it is being a wolf.. wolfs work together in packs to insure their survival, humans form groups for largely the same reasons.. we run into problems whenever we seek to confine basic common experiences to cultural ideals, particularly where "labels" are concerned.. the individual perception of the meaning of a label differs from person to person.. the common basic experience is consistent, then it is distorted by the preconceptions of labels.. so, to approach the "natural" label from a Taoist, or Confucian, or Muslim, or Native American "label" alters the naturalness of the experience, it colors the experience with the notions held by the particular beliefs of a label.. so that a Muslim, a Taoist and a Native American have differing perspectives of Natural..
In my own experience and with my own use of language i favor Taoist philosophies.. and one reason was the simplicity of its intended meaning in "labeling".. Tao, the way, simply, the "way" things are.. nature being nature, and not a contrived notion according to structure of human involvement with nature.. Yet, it is precisely the natural inherent cognitive reasoning skills of humans that "naturally" assign labels and categories to the broad range of experiences and perceptions of those experiences.. so, here we are, using inherently natural reasoning skills to debate the meaning and consequences of using "nature" as a model for society, paradoxical, huh?
A ruler rules by fostering virtue, virtue of true human nature(reversion to authentic nature),How does one do this? Minimally. Growing up i was confused by such nonsense as "etiquette", generally superficial rules for "orderly behavior" of society.. such as which side of the plate to set eating utensils, or what colors go with what other colors, such as wearing a tie for particular situations/events.. all of which are contrived minutia that serves only to complicate the simplicity of living.. of course there are guidelines for social interaction, but they should be excruciatingly minimal.. too much intervention by rules of "preference" will surely set aside the intended result.. The Tao Te Ching says, with simple elegance, "people will find their natural balance without ritualized enforcement and prosper from their own social creativity... where a government of ritualized standards will lose its creativity and prosperity as the people feel less capable of controlling their own destiny".. its kind of like water, it goes where it naturally goes.. humans build great works to control the movement of water, but.. ultimately, water goes where it naturally goes..
Be well..
PangQuan
12-10-2004, 11:14 AM
The many refferances to the state of a new born child are one of the best analogies for what is meant by returning. Water was quite often used for this same purpose. When a newborn babe does anything, it is simply what nature has imbued it with the inate knowledge to do. Such as water, stab it and it parts perfectly for your blade, drink it and it provides all that it is capable, pour it down the side of a cliff and it will join with nature as it does with any action. Remember when reading Taoist text, not to read the entire book all in a row. Read one chapter/passage, meditate on this until you feel you have discovered something from within, then later continue on to the next. Later return to the passage in which you have learned from, there is alway more personal insight that can be gleamed from it. This of course I am sure many of you already know, but for those who are just begining thier studies of Taosim, this is the traditional method in which to read the text. Do not do the common western method, by just reading the whole book all at once, like a novel. It is not fiction, it is not a story. It requires deep thought to find your own awakening through tools presented by the ancient Taoist adepts. I could ramble all day, so I wont.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Why? Why do i need a label? I seldom let the "label" define the situation.. things are what they are, labels only confine the experience to preconceived notions.
I think you miss the point of my post,Perhaps you might feel happier with the ER label as I am contending that the ER theory which you place over Daoist theory isn't quite the same.
Which lead to the reference to ziran nature, natural, the natural state of humans.
I am saying that the apporach that many take on towards Daoism (return to nature) is a misinterpretation.
I think you would enjoy(if you haven't already) The Retifcation of Names by Xunzi, and important work which influenced many debates of its time and deals with the apporach to language and names as you bring forward.
Originally posted by PangQuan
The many refferances to the state of a new born child are one of the best analogies for what is meant by returning.
Section 55 is an example of the importance of virtue within the human.
Eg: Bi W through Lynn tranlates the first line
"one who has profoundly internalized virtue is comparable to the infant"
Bi notes that through the PIV the one does not comit offense against others and is free from craving or desire.
Like many of the sections,it is a great help to read as many commentaries on each as possible as the veiws and interpretations differ greatly.
TaiChiBob
12-14-2004, 06:07 AM
Greetings..
Ka: It is not so much that i miss the point as our points differ at conception.. it seems that you approach this subject, and probably most others, from a scholarly perspective..
I think you would enjoy(if you haven't already) The Retifcation of Names by Xunzi, and important work which influenced many debates of its time and deals with the apporach to language and names as you bring forward. Though i quite understand the implication of the work, i find the approach a bit sterile, a bit formal for this particular subject.. Now, it may emerge that the human's natural inclinations are toward the cultivation of "virtue" as a tool for harmony and survival, but formalization and codification are essentially contrary to the original Taoist perspectives.. ritualistic and formal Taoist schools are second and later generation's attempts to standardize the complete freedom of the originators of this school of thought..
The problem i am concerned with is the definition of "virtue", what is it.. by what standards is it applied and is it a universal concept, or a cultural code? Any great philosophy should transcend its culture and be applicable to the affairs of mankind at large, such as the work "Tao Te Ching".. (yes, i am aware of "Te" in the title)..
I think you miss the point of my post,Perhaps you might feel happier with the ER label as I am contending that the ER theory which you place over Daoist theory isn't quite the same. I am happy with my situation as i perceive it.. i did not go looking for a "label", i simply studied many philosophies and belief systems and concluded that my own beliefs most closely aligned with Taoist thought, i did not become Taoist.. and, i find by reading Taoist Classics that the themes are consistent, and consistently convoluted by those seeking to formalize or codify it into a "system".. in contemplating the value of Taoist thought i first looked at the various "schools" of Taoism and quickly noted their perspective was limited to a particular interest or result and lacked the spontaneity and freshness of its heritage.. then my quest for understanding led me to stories and writings of Taoism's progenitors, here i find a cultivated Bohemian existence with a sincere respect for the value of natural order.. that value, contrary to your contended misconceptions, is an exceptional model for individual, social and governmental prosperity and harmony.. I do not wish to be defined by a "label or title", my only assertion is that Taoism, as i understand it, most closely conforms to my own beliefs.. ER, as you suggest, may suit "you" as a definition of "my" beliefs, but.. i choose to avoid the complications of contemplations of lables.. (call me what you choose, if it works for you).. as for me, i am a being simply trying to make my way through this physical experience without being a burden to it.. and, Taoist thought seems to help..
Be well..
PangQuan
12-14-2004, 11:39 AM
TaiChiBob,
Good post, your feelings and experiences with Taoism closley relate to my own, I understand where you are coming from. I think that the many systemized schools of Taoism is sort of contradictory personally. It is not meant to be labeled or systemized, only realized and followed. I do not have any copies of Lao Tsu or Chuang Tzu with me so I forget who said it but it goes a bit like this; "It is called Tao for lack of a better name, sometimes it is simply called the great." I think this, when meditated upon closely, has a lot to do with the current discussion. I also would not consider myself a strict Taoist, although many of the themes and thought patterns that Taoist studies promote are a large part of my personal psychi. If I were forced to claim a label for a belief system, I probably would choose Taoism, simply because of its ability to leave such a large opening for other forms of faith based belief.
"Live long and prosper" ~ Mr. Spock
TaiChiBob
12-17-2004, 06:00 AM
Greetings..
PangQuan: Precisely, you have stated a very important point of Taoist thought..
I probably would choose Taoism, simply because of its ability to leave such a large opening for other forms of faith based belief. Taoism is a philosophy that accommodates most other beliefs.. it is not a religion.. it doesn't ask for money, it doesn't offer salvation (except from the mundane) and its rewards are easily attainable by the common practitioner of its simple beliefs.. What it does do is offer the aspiring Taoist tools for a richer, fuller life experience.. beyond that, the individual finds their own peace with whatever "religion" (or lack thereof) they choose..
Given that there are Taoist practitioners with long and colorfull histories in the philosophy, it is reasonable that they would offer guidance to the aspirant.. but, usually, it is enigmatic and urges the aspirant to have a particular experience from which they will derive their own understanding of Tao.. to the degree that these experiences are so similarly interpreted with such limited prejudice, Taoism's philosophy is self-revealing and self-verifying..
I have visited several "Taoist Temples" and religious centers.. they are antithetical to their own philosophy, by my understanding.. formal robes, rituals and a condescending attitude toward the outsider or one not of their persuasion or of their particular school.. a devisive policy.
But, in the end, it is ALL Tao.. simply the "way" things ARE..
Be well..
PangQuan
12-17-2004, 05:38 PM
Fully. The essence is well presented by the mysterious Lao Tzu himself, many believe he was many different people, some believe he was so and so, and some believe he was another. There are many theories as to who he was, but when it comes down to it he was simply Tao. Leaving no trace as to who he truly was, in essence not claiming credit for anything he left mankind, is a great example as to what following Tao represents. To leave such a mark on humanity as a whole, yet at the same time not even leaving a real trace as to who you were, now that is sagehood. We can only hope to aspire to such high levels of self realization.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
it seems that you approach this subject, from a scholarly perspective..
Yes... and...
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Though i quite understand the implication of the work, i find the approach a bit sterile, a bit formal for this particular subject..
I am thinking that you haven't read Xunzi's work but can only say that an understanding of other chinese philosophers,history and soieo cultural elements can only aid in interpretation of concepts found in Daodejing.I'm afraid I don't really understand the comment on sterile or formal apporach.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
The problem i am concerned with is the definition of "virtue", what is it.. by what standards is it applied and is it a universal concept, or a cultural code?
Without a doubt this will be a long debated topic within Daoist writing praticularly with the relatively recent discoveries of the Goudian Laozi.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Any great philosophy should transcend its culture and be applicable to the affairs of mankind at large, such as the work "Tao Te Ching".. (yes, i am aware of "Te" in the title)..
I am happy with my situation as i perceive it..
I think you could even argue that Daoism and Buddism have taken on "Western" variations due to soicological exposure.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
then my quest for understanding led me to stories and writings of Taoism's progenitors, here i find a cultivated Bohemian existence with a sincere respect for the value of natural order.. that value, contrary to your contended misconceptions, is an exceptional model for individual, social and governmental prosperity and harmony
As you have indicated in most of your posts this is simply your opinion.Thats great that you state it,perhaps consider other alternative offerings in the tradition of constant change/reaccessment that your adopted philosophy holds dear.
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
I do not wish to be defined by a "label or title", my only assertion is that Taoism, as i understand it, most closely conforms to my own beliefs..
Yep,your dwelling long and hard on the label issue(made only as a off hand remark),needless to say there would be little practicality in discussions without labels. As you indicate you associate with the ideas of Daoism that you have been exposured to, with a particular emphasis highlighted (for numerous reasons). I contend that with expansion of PRC into the "West", the general emphasis considered Daoist will change, furthermore through greater archaeological research(not only of what we consider Daoist writing but rather Chinese Philosophical texts in general, Daoist current perception will continue to be altered largely around the concepts of De virtue and its relation to human nature and the overriding unity of all things.
Which of these formats are closer to a "True" version will as now depend on various elements of an individual or groups background.However the exposure to all versions can only aid in a choice for one to assoicate with.
TaiChiBob
02-01-2005, 06:35 AM
Greetings..
Which of these formats are closer to a "True" version will as now depend on various elements of an individual or groups background.However the exposure to all versions can only aid in a choice for one to assoicate with. There you have it.. Taoism, or the aspiration to harmonize with the natural ebb and flow of life, is actually the underlying principle that is interpreted by groups or individuals according to their experiences and cultural influences.. an Oriental Taoist and a western Taoist may differ in their interpretations while holding to basic principles.. Assertions of "correctness" by any single perspective is contrary to the nature of Tao.. it is obvious by the varied perspectives that Tao exceeds its own definition.. i hope i am not asserting my perspective as the "correct" one, only that it conforms to my current understandings.. surely, i am open to alternative perspectives, it is my nature.. whenever i find that other perspectives are contrary to my own, i try to understand why and how that perspective can improve my experience.. given appropriate experimentation and finding less favor with an alternative perspective, i simply log it for future reference and modification should additional evidence support its merits..
The more we try to ritualize and define Taoism, the more we confine it.. yet, we begin the whole experience by accepting that the Tao is limitless.. "the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. wisdom.
So, in order to move this philosophy forward, we must communicate experiences and favored paths to future generations for their experiental investigation.. my personal preference leans to the story telling style of Chuang Tzu, parables that incite and inspire others to have similar experiences or find similar conclusions from their own experiences.. i am inspired by the collection of analogies attributed to Lao Tzu, the Tao Te Ching.. stories and myths of the 8 immortals give us some insight into early Taoist experiences and cultural interpretations.. i tend to favor the experiential approach as opposed to the codified structure, but to each his/her own.. In retrospect, i have been too defensive of my own preferences, i apologize.. but, when one finds such harmony and depth in this life, the desire to share can distort the validity of individual preference regardless of the source, it's ALL Tao..
Much of the Taiji and martial arts having, as their foundation, Taoist claims, seem to be more open and experiential, they seem to evolve and accept change as contributory to the dynamic of their existence.. i like the principle of "preserve the old, explore the new".. and, i fear being confined to ritual, word and form, they are excellent resources, but.. i see them as foundations for further exploration into the Tao as a way of living.. i find favor with the disciplines of Taiji and QiGong as the results are observable and beneficial, and, given the required devotion to the discipline(s) there is a consistency of experience.. this consistency tends to break-down at the communication level, at the level where we contrive to stimulate similar experiences through dialogue.. some of my best learning experiences were gained through wordless (due to language barriers) training.. i could only imitate the form being demonstrated, the results were individually similar among the attendees.. a decent indicator of the value of the lesson..
Right? Wrong? who really knows? i sense that the Tao is unconcerned with it, there's really no difference.. My new T-Shirt design includes the phrase "and sanctuary for wayward Taoists", in as much as we are ALL wayward Taoists, to the degree we deviate from our natural existence..... but, isn't that deviation indication of our "natural" inclinations? Yikes, i've made my brain itch again....
Be well......
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