Can you learn from a dry land swimmer?

[YongChun]

So here's the question:

Can one learn Wing Chun from a dry land swimmer or must one learn from a fighter?

If one cannot learn from a dry land swimmer then what about all those people who learned from Yip Man.

What about those who learned from:

Leung Sheung
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sha Ting
Wang Kiu
Moy Yat
Ho Kam Ming
Leung Ting
Yip Chun
Yip Ching
and many more.

Are the students of Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung therefore necessarily the best?

Is it better to learn from Mike Tyson's coach or from Mike Tyson? Were Mike Tyson's coaches dry land swimmers or fighters?

We all know fighters by definition must fight regularly or else they cannot be called fighters, so that's not the question or part of the discussion this time.

[yellowpikachu]

there is no" first place in emperor examination " sifu but there is plenty of " first place in emperor examination" disciples. ---- a chinese proverb


note: in ancient time, emperor of china will give examination and select the first place winner. and these first place winner never went back and teach they become emperor's top official. as for thier sifu who teach or educate them, mostly this are people who fail the emperor's examp and force to teach to make a living.

as it said, there is no dna of who is superior, one has to be always improve oneself.

[anerlich]

There's a drill we do in grappling class where you move forward on your elbows and knees, trying to stay as close to the ground as possible, but a bit more sophisticated than the description I give here. Sort of like a crocodile walk, you can do it backwards as well. It sort of looks like a "Hollywood mountain climb" where you had the old Batman and Robin with Adam West and burt Ward scaling a wall which was actually a floor, but then the camera was turned 90 degrees so they looked like they were scaling the vertical wall of a building.

Now that I think about it, this IS dry land swimming!

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
There's a drill we do in grappling class where you move forward on your elbows and knees, trying to stay as close to the ground as possible, but a bit more sophisticated than the description I give here.
...
Now that I think about it, this IS dry land swimming!

Dry land swimming is a lot harder than that. You have to do the real crawl, sidestroke, Butterfly stroke, backstroke and swim at least 100 meters on dry land. Whoever can do that is pretty good. I guess what you describe is a start. It's similar to what the army people do when they crawl under the barbed wire fences.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by anerlich
There's a drill we do in grappling class where you move forward on your elbows and knees, trying to stay as close to the ground as possible, but a bit more sophisticated than the description I give here. Sort of like a crocodile walk, you can do it backwards as well. It sort of looks like a "Hollywood mountain climb" where you had the old Batman and Robin with Adam West and burt Ward scaling a wall which was actually a floor, but then the camera was turned 90 degrees so they looked like they were scaling the vertical wall of a building.

Now that I think about it, this IS dry land swimming!

we do that one as well.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
So here's the question:

Can one learn Wing Chun from a dry land swimmer or must one learn from a fighter?

can you learn from one? sure. can you learn to fight from one? That's a slightly different question.


Is it better to learn from Mike Tyson's coach or from Mike Tyson? Were Mike Tyson's coaches dry land swimmers or fighters?

I know the point you're trying to make, but it somewhat backfired. freddie roach was a fighter. He retired in 1987 with a record of something like 41-12. kevin rooney was 21-4-1. most coaches were fighters back in the day. That goes back to what I said a while ago: I would think twice before training under someone with no real experience. How are you gonna coach me about the finer points of being in the ring if you've never been in one? How can you relate? A winning record isn't required, but you need experience.


We all know fighters by definition must fight regularly or else they cannot be called fighters, so that's not the question or part of the discussion this time.

that's true as well. is freddie roach considered a fighter? no, he's a coach now.

[Vajramusti]

Andrew-

In one non-hatha system of yoga there is a mobile asana called makarasana- the crocodile asana.

Seven Star-good points on Kevin Rooney and Freddie Roach. Tyson madea big mistake when he left Rooney. Roach trained Tyson for his last unforumate fight.

Ray- quickly on your list. People are not always on the same info.
or definitional base. There is chi sao and there is chi sao.
Some forms of very mobile chi sao are as close as you can get to the real stuff without killing your opponent.

Ho Kam Ming is now just about 80 and has had some health problems in the past. He knows how to fight- but his experiences
were of a different kind than some of the teenagers. Even in his 70s Master Ho had to protect himself successfully against an armed group of hoods in Macao. He has trained a lot of wing chun folks- some he has trained for competitive fighting. And I have met about 3 of them and know what they can do.

In this whole fight-fight hysteria- some fighters are losers and dont know their art either- but hype their "experience"--others spout concepts and theories but dont know how to apply them-
but get students who are tough anyway and bask in their borrowed glory.

[reneritchie]

Learning is the domain of the student, not the teacher.

And Ray will soon be giving Hendrik a run for the title...

[t_niehoff]

RR wrote:

Learning is the domain of the student, not the teacher.

**Exactly! Every WCK practitioner should use that as a mantra. A person can learn the method from anyone that knows the method. Skill, the combination of strategy, atrtibutes, technique, etc., is individual and comes only from application. You can't get application from someone else; it comes from the doing (fighting) -- you learn it but no one teaches it to you. An instructor that has fought can be a great help or a great hinderance to the student depending on whether they "get in the way" or not.


Regards,

Terence

[YongChun]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Learning is the domain of the student, not the teacher.

And Ray will soon be giving Hendrik a run for the title...

Rene:
What's that supposed to mean? I'm all for realistic training. I know where Terence is coming from and agree mostly, just my timeframe is different and if someone is injured then I don't agree they can do the hard sparring. Also I don't agree with trying to take someone's head off because if I did that then most students will have no head.

I have experienced lots of dry land swimming. I don't think that's very good myself.

I have trained people who are very good at fighting and have used it many many times. I have competed in younger years. So don't insult me. I could be misreading your comment which is highly likely.

[reneritchie]

Hi Ray,

I meant the title for starter of most threads. Hendrik was in the lead by a blow out, but you are beginning to catch up.

If you found that insulting, my apologies. I was going for funny.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hi Ray,

I meant the title for starter of most threads. Hendrik was in the lead by a blow out, but you are beginning to catch up.

If you found that insulting, my apologies. I was going for funny.

I just got up when I wrote that and was still half asleep and didn't know what was going on. My apologies.

Ray

[Savi]

Some fighters aren't cut out to be teachers.

Some fighters are too competitive to make their students better than they are.

Some fighters are even better at teaching than they are at fighting.

My thoughts: You should learn from someone who is experienced and knowledgeable in the material they teach.

Teachers learn by teaching and learn from their teachers, by the way. Learning is the domain of all who pursue it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Some fighters aren't cut out to be teachers.

Some fighters are too competitive to make their students better than they are."
(Savi)

True statements.

But assuming that the fighter in question is a good teacher...

Then, Ray...I'd amend the title of the thread to read:

HOW MUCH can you learn from a dry land swimmer?

Answer: Not as much as from the fighter who is also a good teacher.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Some fighters aren't cut out to be teachers.

Some fighters are too competitive to make their students better than they are."
(Savi)

True statements.

But assuming that the fighter in question is a good teacher...

Then, Ray...I'd amend the title of the thread to read:

HOW MUCH can you learn from a dry land swimmer?

Answer: Not as much as from the fighter who is also a good teacher.

I totally agree. Many people look for this kind of teachers but often don't know or can't judge. If you read the other Wing Chun forum somewhere then about every single Wing Chun teacher is totally trashed. There isn't one well known teacher that isn't.

Ray

[reneritchie]

You da man, Ray.



I've trained with international level fighters who couldn't/wouldn't teach worth a darn. They lacked desire, focus, ability to communicate and adapt their communication to different learning types, etc. And I've trained with unknowns who were outstanding at making me better. And I've been fortunate to train with a rare few who were both.

Teaching and fighting are separate skill sets. Ideally you get exposed to both at their best. And even more hopefully, people are honest about which one (if not both) their skill lies, so students can make informed choices.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
I totally agree. Many people look for this kind of teachers but often don't know or can't judge. If you read the other Wing Chun forum somewhere then about every single Wing Chun teacher is totally trashed. There isn't one well known teacher that isn't.

Ray

this is where sport styles have an advantage. you can usually find a verified history of the coach in question.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by SevenStar
this is where sport styles have an advantage. you can usually find a verified history of the coach in question. Verified against what? I think every city in the world has at least one, if not several people claiming to be "world champion". Just how does that happen? Sorry to sound so cynical, but.......

[yellowpikachu]

I train with teachers who is alive and who has already dead..

Can a dead teacher a great fighter trainer?



I have heard, Mas Oyama brought a few classical books when he went for seclusion in the Mountain.

Then, years later, there was this Kyokushin Oyama.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Can a dead teacher a great fighter trainer?"

I've reread this sentence about ten times - and I'm getting a headache!

[Vajramusti]

An open minded, analytical and able person can learn from all sorts of sources-depending on what puzzle they are engaged in solving and thereby improve themselves.

When trying to understand the kuen kuit- among many other things---reading a good translation of Sun Zu helped.

When trying to understand the chemistry of combat- such diverse things as Musahi's writings and Plato on courage helped.

This does not mean by any means neglecting the importance of searching and seeking out people with substantial real experience who can also analyze the upside and down side of their experiences.
And seeking and
Learning from one's own experience is important too but many can flounder in depending on their own dabbling.


Mushashi who learned from and grew with each of his real (killing)
fight experiences-- still sought out his father in order to learn as a boy-then breaking off and going his own way. He also read and painted and did calligraphy- to develop an integrated attutude towards his martial life.

Ultimately a martial student learns by himself-but should be ready for knowledge from wherever it may appear.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Can a dead teacher a great fighter trainer?"

I've reread this sentence about ten times - and I'm getting a headache!

must be a mantra to cause headache .:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Matrix
Verified against what? I think every city in the world has at least one, if not several people claiming to be "world champion". Just how does that happen? Sorry to sound so cynical, but.......

note that I'm talking about sport fighting schools - wrestling, boxing, thai boxing, etc., not point fighting. any champion in these sports will be tied to an organization. that organization has records, some of which may be as easy as doing a search on google.

[captain]

hello Rene.im curious,who did you train with and what?and will your Quebec wc buds be doing anything late summer 2005?[ie,something i could show up to?]
cheers,Russ

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Matrix
Verified against what? I think every city in the world has at least one, if not several people claiming to be "world champion". Just how does that happen? Sorry to sound so cynical, but....... It doesn't matter whether or not the teacher in question held titles or not. What matters is that you can verify that he has actually fought under the pressure of the competitive environment.

This is much better than just blindly beleiving the words of a "master" who has taken on a variety of bad guys and can not be taken down (but cannot demonstrate this to you because he would have to severely injure you while doing so).