sensitivity but then... iron forearms?

[wingchunwsl]

i know you need sensitivity in your arms but do you think it's a good idea to train to get the foreamrs a lil tougher?

when doing sai lap sau, the forearm part of my arms start to feel some pain. do you think it's a good idea to do a lil iron forearm kung? my arm is already getting some "abuse" by my partner anyway. i also read in a wing chun kuen book about one of the guys mastering the iron forearm kung. what do you guys think?

[sllor]

do you use a wooden dummy?
that should be enough to toughen up your arms enough to not feel pain when training

[This message was edited by sllor on 08-17-01 at 04:30 AM.]

[Gluteus Maximus]

Hi Wingchunwsl,

Using Dit Da Jow regularly will help. You can either buy it or make it according to the recipe that Dave posted on this forum recently. Toughening your forearms with Dit Da Jow won't adversely affect your Chi Sau.

I believe that Qi development and manipulation is a worthwhile endeavour. The keys to initially developing Qi awareness are relaxation, correct breathing, mental focus and belief. Breathe into the Dan Tien to concentrate Qi there. Also, what helped me a lot (I know it sounds weird but it works!) was being told to forget that I was breathing through my nose and mouth and imagine air entering my body through my feet while breathing. Once the Qi is felt, work on moving it through the body using your mind. After a lot of practise, you'll be able to summon it to any part of your body.

I haven't specifically learnt any Iron Shirt or Iron Body Qigong, but I am at the stage where I am now able to move Qi to any part of my body. I can then either use the Qi defensively to protect that part of my body from blows, or use it offensively by directing Qi into my strikes.

However, I am unable to do this instantaneously at this stage and it still requires total mental concentration for me to be able to focus the Qi into a certain body part. I can only put the Qi into one part of my body at a time. Also, the more concentrated the Qi, the smaller an area it will protect. During a fight, the main problem that I can see with using Qi for protecting your body is predicting where you will be hit next so that you can have the Qi there. Of course a high-level practitioner may be able to know an opponent's moves in advance and move his Qi instantaneously, but at my level of development, I'd rather have it in my hands to be used effectively when I choose to strike.

Sorry about the ramble, I got slightly off-topic and side-tracked myself a bit there!

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

[IronFist]

Iron arms doesn't reduce sensitivity. Kinda sounds contradictary, huh. Ok, let me rephrase it. If you practice iron arms, you will be able to take hard blows to the insides (and all over) your forearms, but they will still be sensitive to the gentlest touch, or even a tiny gnat crawling on one of your arm hairs.

I realize it doesn't make sense, you'd think, "hey, if my arms are tough enough to not get hurt by powerful blows, how the hell could I feel something lighter?" But that's not how it works.

Iron

[Kong Jianshen]

Iron Fist, well said my friend. I used to have a W/C teacher who used to yell at his students if he found out they did any kind of conditioning because it would "dull thier sensitivity"..

MY ASS. ;)

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Nietzsche

[wingchunwsl]

i see. thanks guys. thanks ironfist. i was told that it wouldn't make my arms sensitive. thanks for straightening it out.

[IronFist]

Whoa thanks for the compliments guys.

wingchunwsl, what kind of arm conditioning are you thinking about? I'm asking because I'm sure there are some kinds that would reduce sensitivity, for example, if you slammed your arm against a tree trunk for an hour every day.

Remember, conditioning is a very GRADUAL process. If you do start to notice any loss of sensitivity, stop. I know it might be hard to tell tho, since it is a gradual thing, but if you notice, stop. Oh yeah, make sure you use jow.

This topic intrigues <sp> me. I stopped practicing iron arms about two or three years ago, after practicing it for about a year and a half. And still, my forearms are sensitive and also still very resistant to pain (I can whack them together without much discomfort). I mean, they're not as conditioned as they were, but the conditioning seems to have stayed with me, knock on wood. Anyone else experience this?

Iron

[Scott]

Just a little point, the technique is called "Iron Bridge." Bridge meaning Forearm.

The training doesn't callous or effect your skin/nerves in any way, it only strengthens your bones.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[wingchunwsl]

ironfist, that's the one i had in mind. it's supposed to take two years to develop and you're supposed to first start out with a wooden pole or something close to that, move on to a tree to toughen up the skin, and then to big rocks.

[aelward]

I was wondering what you guys think, does Wing Chun sensitivity come from tactile sensations on the skin, or the increasing pressure on the various joints between point of contact with an opponent and the ground?

I think it is a little of both, though mostly pressure on the joints.

JK-
"Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

[dzu]

It's important to remember that we are all BORN with sensitivity. What we develop through WC and chi sau is the ability to recognize and interpret the information we get from the sensitivity. The more experience we gain, the less information or the less time we need need to make a decision. IMHO sensitivity is therefore more of a mental development than a physical one.

The physical part of sensitivity will always be there as long as you have nerves in the skin. A progressive conditioning regimen allows the body to adapt slowly over time to the physical stimulus and there should be no long term damage if the body is allowed to heal. Obviously, the more chi sau you do with people outside of your lineage and your comfort zone, the more experience and mental development you cultivate.

regards,

Dzu

[IronFist]

wingchunswl said:

ironfist, that's the one i had in mind. it's supposed to take two years to develop and you're supposed to first start out with a wooden pole or something close to that, move on to a tree to toughen up the skin, and then to big rocks.

That doesn't sound too good. That will cause external appearance changes (uh, like caloused skin) and you don't want that. The bark on the tree will rip you skin open. I don't mean to disrespect your sifu, but I really don't think that's a good method, especially nowadays when messed up forearms would be suspicious.

I used a long thin canvas bag filled with beans, and then one filled with small rocks. Neither was hard, like a pole or tree, and thus could absorb the shock and not damage my arm.

Scott said:

The training doesn't callous or effect your skin/nerves in any way, it only strengthens your bones.

What style of training are you talking about? I've heard traditional iron arm draws the pores closer together, but I dunno.


I forgot what else I was going to say.

Iron

[wingchunwsl]

no MY sifu didn't say that. i read in a book about i think grandmaster sum nung mastering it.

sorry if i confused you guys.

[IronFist]

Bump, because this is a good topic.

[edziak]

To me, sensitivity in one's skin is unimportant. The information you recive from your skin is very basic. You don't feel how strong an oponent is through your skin. You can't tell where an oponent's balance is through your skin. All you can realy tell is wether your being touched or not and that should be obvious.

The most important sensitivity comes form nerves in your muscles. It is the nerves in muscles that feel where your arm is. It is the nerves in muscles that can tell how much force an opponent is applying or in witch direction they are applying it. As an example, take a stick and swing it around. Hit it against things. Even though the stick isn't part of your body and has no skin, you can still feel the weight and length of the stick as if it was. You can still tell how hard something is by hitting it with the stick. This sensitivity dosn't come from your skin, it comes form the movements detected by your whole arm.


_____________________________________________


I just realized that I basicaly said what aelward said a few posts ago. I guess I should probably read the whole board before comenting next time

[IronFist]

To me, sensitivity in one's skin is unimportant... All you can realy tell is wether your being touched or not and that should be obvious.

What if you're being touched from behind?

What if you're making love?

Personally, I like the information I get from my skin :) :) :)

Iron

[chi-kwai]

"What if you're making love?"

would this be called "chi gi gi"? (sticky d!*k.) :)

--
chi kwai