To throw or not to throw

[SPJ]

Do you practice how to throw in your school of MA?

If so, what is the percentage of studying throwing in the overall curriculum?

How do you study and practice?

Is there any other way to study without actually using a partner?

Shuai Jiao and Judo ppl welcome to comment.

And we all know that both study how to throw 100% of the time.

Any warming up or pre-drills for throwing?

What are the body mechanics, steps and stances ?

:confused:

[SevenStar]

There is a method to practive throws solo. the SC guys use a pulley that has weight on it. In judo we will tie inner tubes/surgical tubing around a pillar, tree, etc. the ends of the tube function as arms and give resistance during the throw.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Me and Shake sat in at a David Lin seminar yesterday. He also used innertubes for practicing using your body weight to throw. I'll explain more later.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by SPJ
Do you practice how to throw in your school of MA?

If so, what is the percentage of studying throwing in the overall curriculum?

How do you study and practice?

Is there any other way to study without actually using a partner?

Shuai Jiao and Judo ppl welcome to comment.

And we all know that both study how to throw 100% of the time.

Any warming up or pre-drills for throwing?

What are the body mechanics, steps and stances ?

:confused:

Judoka do not study throwing 100% of the time. as there should be a considerable amount of time learning groundwork.

A great training tool for wrestlers & judoka:

http://www.abband.com/

[WanderingMonk]

Monkey Slap Too had an article in IKF which he used a weigh plate apparatus for practicing throws.

Buy a steel pipe about two inches diameter, length appromixate your own height. fuse it to a weight plate 20 to 30 lbs (you'll need a metal worker to do this). then attach a rope to the steel pipe. The rope will serve as "arm" of your opponent. you grab the rope with one arm, hook your other arm around the pipe and then you hook your leg around the pipe to unbalance it and practice your throwing motoion.

You can also use it to practice the front kick throw in SC.

I am sure MST can give a better description of device which he wrote about. I made one out of wood but it didn't work too well b/c of the balance issue. might try it again sometime.

[EarthDragon]

I will do my best to answer these questions briefly.

1.Yes, I teach 8 step praying mantis which uses the fast wrestling of Shuai Jiao.

2.Following the cirriculum you start to learn the concepts of throwing after the first 4 years or so .then yo foucs 80 % on the throwing and 20% review of material already learned.

3. Learning physics and movement through motion and repitition

4.I think this has already been answered.

5.The predrills that are the most important is leaning how to
break fall.

6. Body mechanics steps and stances will be learned through proper instrction and practice.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
after the first 4 years or so... Why so long? Basic kung fu is Ti Da Shuai Na. You should be learning how to use them all from the first day, IMO.

[EarthDragon]

Master killer, The cirriculum I teach is like steps or building blocks. The first couple years are spent learning how to move in solo or the basic movements.

Then the next few years are spent learning how to apply the individual solo or basic movements in a fighting application.

then a few year years after that of following up the fighting application with a joint lock or throw.

This teaches you how to go from moving or evading to blocking or redirecting to attacking and crippling ending a confrontation from the opponets first thrown punch.

This does not mean that the student is'nt shown or tried more advanced applications. It just means you should'nt learn to throw in combat until you have the proper foundation, body mechanics and confidence.

Never from the first day before a student knows what a horse stance is or can properly throw a punch should they be shown how to redirect, attack, joint lock and throw. For the obvious reasons as well as for saftey.

When my students first learn how to throw they tend to use strength wich can injure themselves as well as thier partners. even after several years of training.

So NO you should not be shown that from the first day.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Never from the first day before a student knows what a horse stance is or can properly throw a punch should they be shown how to redirect, attack, joint lock and throw. For the obvious reasons as well as for saftey.

your avg bjj guy or judoka knows nothing of stance work...what's the difference? their base is learned through drills. even though when we throw, you may see horse, bow and arrow, cat, etc. they aren't formally taught. they are merely transitions in our throws/footwork. IMO, the only requirement for throwing is knowing how to fall.

When my students first learn how to throw they tend to use strength wich can injure themselves as well as thier partners. even after several years of training.

that's because they are not used to throwing. you can train for 10 years and never throw - when you throw for the first time, you will likely use strength. Not only that, but when someone is resisting you, you will have to use some strength at some point.

So NO you should not be shown that from the first day.

I do agree with that - you should learn to fall from day one. throwing shouldn't take four years though, I wouldn't think.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
the only requirement for throwing is knowing how to fall.

you should learn to fall from day one.

[Shaolinlueb]

yes we practice throws. partner always, always with a mat.
when you say throws, do you mean takedowns also?

[SPJ]

When you say take down, do you mean Qin Na before and after throw?

:)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SPJ
When you say take down, do you mean Qin Na before and after throw?

:)

yes i do mean qin na.

[EarthDragon]

Seven star,
I understand your point, however the system that I teach is praying mantis and the Shuai Jiao aspect is not shown to the begginner. We have so much basic to novice material to learn first it would be like putting the cart before the horse.

About 4 years of training you should start to understand joint locking, seizing, physics and throwing but in our system not before.

Again your point is well taken when you are speaking from a bjj or judo system since there very style revolves around such techniques. I hope I have explained myself correctly. Be well

[mantis108]

Although I can see where Earth Dragon is coming from, I would have to agree with Sevenstar. The view that if they aren't practicing horse stance for years they aren't doing Kung Fu is IMHO a silly notion (not say this is the case with Earth Dragon). I believe student should be able to learn at least 5 techniques if not certain important skills such as breakfall and rolling on the first day. In fact, I think student should be shown your styles approach of fight on the first day. They should have the understanding of what kind of training they are getting into and the philosophy of your personal approach right off the bat. Of course, understanding the stances well help and should be encourage as well if one is to teach TCMA. In this day and age, if you don't have a practical program that trains all ranges (I'd go with just three), your students might have problem dealing with the increasingly demanding trend of MMA and NHB supporters. I believe that the only way TCMA is going to survive this is to evolve. If you don't have a program that address basic attributes of shuai element or the ground range for that matter, it is time that you develop one. But then it's a personal journey. So in the end, to each their own. just remember don't live in a bubble that you creat for yourself and your students.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. If I did, I appologize.

Mantis108

[Meat Shake]

"Do you practice how to throw in your school of MA?"
Yes, i study Shuai Chiao.

"If so, what is the percentage of studying throwing in the overall curriculum?" Sh!t.... Id say about 90-95%.

"How do you study and practice?"
Study other people throwing by watching footage or watching live drills, practice by various methods of single person work or train throws through set scenarios, and after at least a couple of throws are learned (not mastered, just learned) you start learning to apply them against resisting opponents.

"Is there any other way to study without actually using a partner?"
Holy lordy...
Lots and lots of ways to train throwing without a partner... 2 sided rock pole- Any type of stick or pole with weight at both ends. Various swinging activities to replicate throws.
single sided rock pole- Any pipe or pole with a weight or cement filled flower pot on one end. Used for various shuai chiao "kicking" or "leg blocking" methods.
long bag- Heavy canvas bag about 3" x 2.5'. The bag is swung like a pendulum and then jerked back at the point of being parallel to the ground.
square bag- "Square" bag, heavy canvas. Ends sewn perpindicular directions to each other. Thrown with a partner or with oneself in various ways.
throwing a heavy punching bag around the yard- Pretty self explanitory. Pick it up, throw it. Pick it up again, throw it again. Vomit.
weighted pulley- A long rope with a pulley and weight on the other end. Several different methods of training with this device.
inner tube- Tied to a tree or nailed to a wall, adding or taking away tubes gives varying degrees of resistance for more "realistic" single person training.
empty hand forms- Self explanitory.
belt cracking- Empty hand forms done while cracking a belt. Great excercise.

"And we all know that both study how to throw 100% of the time."
I apologize, but I do not understand this sentence.

"Any warming up or pre-drills for throwing?"
Yes. The basic stances you learn for shuai chiao are great warm ups, as are a couple of the forms for escaping and countering.

"What are the body mechanics, steps and stances ?"
Eeeh... Difficult question. Body mechanics you just kinda have to learn... I cant really explain. You just have to throw and be thrown. There are 12(I think?) beginner stances in shuai chiao. The most important stepping for most of the throws is called a T-Stance, but there isnt really any sense in explaining just the stance without giving a couple of demonstrations of its purpose.

[Meat Shake]

On the aspect of when and how...

My first day of shuai chiao consisted of learning 5 basic empty hand forms, (they are only one or two moves apiece, done on each side) followed by getting shown how to fall. I fell on my own for about 5 minutes, then gene and kirk commenced slamming me onto the mat for the next 45 minutes or so. The next month consisted of me getting thrown and never throwing, so I could learn how to safely fall. I also spent a little bit of time each class working on stances and basic drills to learn how my body needed to move to throw, while deprogramming myself from what I learned in Shaolin-Do.
I agree that for a beginner there is nothing more important than the breakfall.
I started learning locks and lockflow about 2 months into the curriculum... All things being fair however, the group really only consisted of myself, gene, and sifu kirk. Gene and kirk had been working together for about a year and a half when I started, and I had several previous years MA experience... So we kinda had the option to move quickly and a little bit more roughly than would have been the case with a large group of beginners.

[SPJ]

Excellent posts.

Well said on "Vomit", being thrown first and learning how to fall safely.

100% means everything may gear toward how to throw.

Agreed that there are also other training.

Excellent posts.

:cool: