taoists: letting go of ego and petty desires without killing basic joy

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yeah weird thread for the gda.

i recently spent a week in the hospital, and during that time i did a lot of reading, meditating, and general self reflection. i made some small progress in identifying things in my daily life that were completely ego or desire driven without any actual real benifit.

i also have made some smaller progress in letting go of some of these things and while i feel that i'm much calmer and a little more clear on some things, i have also found myself enjoying a few things less.

take porn for instance. i have deleted over half of my porn collection. not because i suddenly dont like porn, but simply because most of it simply wasn't "doing it for me" and i was extremely picky about the quality of my collection to begin with. this might sound really dumb to the lot of you, but my porn collection was something i took very seriously all up to about 10 days ago and now its just kinda meh. it's other things too ... but porn was the first thing i really noticed.

it's not that i really mind .... but that in itself is kinda the problem. it feels more stoic, stale, and dead than empty and open. and i don't think it's the right direction in taoism but i guess i really don't know. i like not getting angry at video games so much anymore, but i'm not as into it either. is this something typical to go through, or am i just weeding out the nonsense in my life? i just always hear about the basic joy and goodness in taoism and im either going about letting go of things in the wrong way (suppressing them) or im looking to the wrong things for joy. or maybe something else all togeather.

does anyone even have a clue as to what im talking about or am i more confused than i think?

[Vash]

First off, you could have hooked me up with the material you deleted beforehand.

Second off, I have no useful input.

[FngSaiYuk]

Sounds like you're aging... You've hit that point in life where you're noticing the passions of your youth mean less and less as you age. You'll probably end up identifying some of your more meaningfull needs so you can spend your available resources on what really matters to you in the long run over the stuff you used to do to pass the time.

As far as taoist thinking - who is to say what is good or bad... just try to stay balanced and be realistic about yourself and your environment.

[bung bo]

I've been doing the same thing. I've been staying out of class because of an injury and I'm learning more about myself. I've been reading taoist and zen stuff and it's a very introspective experiece. More taiji and qigong; feeling my energy more, paying more attention to my movement.

After I practiced gong fu a while, I started to lose interest in certain things. The porn bit doesn't sound dumb. I'm not really into porn as much as I used to be. It's flat and isn't alive. Not to say it's bad. One way to blow off some steam, anyway. You can temporarily raise your testosterone by looking at porn. It's not great and not terrible, let's put it like that.

I think what you're feeling is typical, that is to say, it's not wrong or unhealthy. Anyway, good for you hacking away and simplifying your life.

[WanderingMonk]

GDA,

think of it like watching a movie. enjoy it while watching it and when it end, let it go.

happiness is a state of mind. If you are calm, you can find a natural state of peacefulness and happiness. It isn't as exciting as some of the externally induced happiness, but it last longer. you can return to it whenever you want and you can choose if you are going to be happy.

external stimuli induced happiness comes and goes. eventually you need a higher dose of the external stimuli to induce the same level of happiness. The dosage needed only goes up as you become jaded to the stimuli.

the porn thing, throw it all out if you can. I tossed out my some years back. don't listen to vash. don't pass it on him or to any other people for that matters. You really want to avoid that. really.

I don't want to sound preachy. Just think of it as a friendly advise. people associated with porn industry generally don't end well. Each porn that one pass on to other people is a count against him. The more he pass out, the more count there is. Then, when other people pass it on, the originator get another partial count. It isn't until all of the porn is completely gone do the adding of count stops.

I know you have it pretty tough and you don't need anyone to tell you what to do with your life. but, this is something you really want to avoid.

[lightsout]

As I got older, I also got rid of some things that used to be important to me. Seems like you. To lose the sad or empty feeling, I needed to find something new to fill the space. It ended up being simpler things, and also one or two things that I enjoyed a long, long time ago recycled in a slightly different form. I feel happier now every day, although maybe not as high/low as before. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's good enough for me. It doesn't feel like a compromise or letdown--it feels good.

(As that was my first post, I guess I should say hello to everyone. I'm a hunggar practitioner from Savannah. I have also started to learn a little bit of xingyi, which is why I'm on this internal board. Hoping to learn some things.)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Simplify, simplify, simplify!!! then, when you have simplified all you can, simplify some more.. that will allow the natural joy and ecstasy that is inherent in living to emerge.. it is the complexities that we blindly accept that hide our simple and natural joy.. without the complexities to deceive us clarity emerges and we can see symbiosis of all things working in harmony..

The "basic joy" is always there but too often we overlook it in our misplaced need to organize and control our surroundings and our lives.. Joy arises from spontanaeity, from the pure awe and rush of surprise as life unfolds before us... it is our training in the internal arts that prepares us to accept this unfolding in a natural and calm spirit.. knowing that we are prepared to accept whatever unfolds.. it is like surfing, we generally understand wave action but each wave (situation) is unique..and after years of surfing (training) we learn to deal with the surprises nature (life/conflict) throws at us.. what is left is the joy of living in the moment as life unfolds... simplifying our lives allows us time to simply be in the moment, to live life on the cutting edge..

Be well...

[Nexus]

There's nothing inherently wrong with porn, masturbation or sex. When taken to excess, any of those things can be unhealthy, and that is the basic premise of what taoism is attempting to explain when it emphasizes the importance of being balanced and at peace. When there is inner peace, we are not in conflict with ourselves, there is no "part of ourselves attempting to fight and criticize some other part of ourselves. It is one self."
TaiChiBob encourages simplification. Simplicity can be simple (no pun intended) and difficult all depending on how it is approached. If you are having difficulty simplifying then you are already missing the point of simplifying (get it?). If not, think of it like this.
When I was young I used to put together puzzles. I'd pour out all the pieces and start trying to put them together and seeing which ones fit. I'd refernece the box cover to see what the final picture would look like (unless I wanted a surprise). I'd group pieces together that were similar in color. The reds would all go in a red pile, blues in a blue pile, etc. This is an example of simplifying things. I first make a decision about how I want to organize, in this case, by grouping by color, and then I go with that method. After that, I can go further, and group edged pieces that are red with other edges pieces, and so on. Eventually I no longer have a huge pile of pieces but instead organized groups of pieces that are simplified and more easily approachable. Perhaps you organized your porn collection in a similar way, lesbian, gangbang, migits*x, etc. This is one method simplification and it can lend towards easing ones troubles by making challenges that seem insurmountable (like a very challenging puzzle with a lot of pieces) seem do-able.

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Sounds like you're aging... You've hit that point in life where you're noticing the passions of your youth mean less and less as you age. You'll probably end up identifying some of your more meaningfull needs so you can spend your available resources on what really matters to you in the long run over the stuff you used to do to pass the time.

As far as taoist thinking - who is to say what is good or bad... just try to stay balanced and be realistic about yourself and your environment.

most people seem to do this from the ages of 19-22 abouts for all males I have known in my life (including myself). seems that a search for a deeper meaning and philosophy stuff starts to become more into focus. it can be kind of annoying to hear people talk all about it all the time (some can be annoying with it, others more personal). it is part of growing and is a good thing :)

just be sure to pay bills on time and do not mess up your credit, hehe (which I am still correcting, trying to get a good mortgage).

[looking_up]

I struggled with this a bit (not so much the porn thing). I like what WanderingMonk said about letting things go after. Please have fun, just keep everything in perspective and keep your sense of humor. There is no reason why being "taoist" or whatever should mean that you don't have fun. If you find that some things are not so fun anymore, get off your ass and discover new things. Just don't be a slave to your emotions or anything else for that matter.

[MaFuYee]

:D gda; you're alright, dude.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Just take it one day at a time. Your finally opening your eyes about life but it wont come to you all at once. Your already way ahead of the pack. Just go with the flow is my motto :D

[FuXnDajenariht]

You know whats been hard as hell to give up tho? Death metal! Im trying my best to find something else to fill the void but theres nothing like it. 100 double kicks a minute, dueling guitars wailing a sick riff, the bass chugga luggin away, guy wailing like its hes repeatedly bein kicked in the sacks.

Aaaaah the memories. What am i talking about? Im playing it right now. Its just so hard to find that level of musicianship played with some energy that i can get into. Everything else seems booooring compared to it.

Anyway. The most important thing GDA is ta aaalways no matter what have a positive outlook on things. Whether your Taoist Buddhist Christian Hindu Wiccan or whatever. They all say thats the most important thing.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi GDA,

When I consider Taoist principles I always think about Yin-Yang. Yin-Yang is such a simple symbol, yet it tells us all we need to know concerning the Tao.

There is constant movement and rhythm to life. Life is a process of change. There are shifting and alternating periods of growth, focus and priorities; an ebb and flow, if you will.

Growth proceeds in ebbs and flows. Tao is nothing more then the pattern or flow of life. Anything that happens in life is part of that pattern, and therefore normal. It is our interpretation of experiences that may cause conflict within us, not the experience itself.

One of the misconceptions pertaining to Yin-Yang is that it illustrates the dynamic interplay of opposites. This is an erroneous view. It is actually the dynamic interplay of contrasting principles. When we understand the symbolism as contrasting principles it clears up some very common misunderstandings. When we believe Yin-Yang to be the interplay of opposites the consequence is we tend to view experiences and phenomena as right or wrong, good or bad. But something is only good or bad, right or wrong in relation to what it is contrasted with. One of my favorite examples that I have used on this board previously is the example of bowls of water:

Let us say we have 3 bowls of water. One bowl is 40*F, one is 60*F, and one is 80*F. The 60*F bowl of water is considered either warm or cold depending upon which other bowl it is contrasted with. If we contrast it with 40*F water it is felt to be warm, but if we contrast it with the 80*F water we experience it as cold. The 60*F bowl is neither warm nor cold, it is merely 60*F, but we will label our experience of the water based upon how we have chosen to contrast it.

So in life the quality or value of our experiences are measured by how we contrast them. This is where you are with your new experience. You are attempting to integrate a change in perspective into your life and attempting to determine how to categorize it. Is it good, or bad? But it is neither good nor bad. It just is, and as demonstrated by Yin-Yang, it will change as well.

It is possible you may eventually regret discarding some or all of your porn collection. Sex is a part of our biology, but how we choose to experience it is based upon how we choose to contrast it. Right now your perspective has changed and therefore your measure of the experience has changed. Your measure may change back, or it may change to something else, but it will change. Sex is a part of life, and that will not change. But there are ebbs and flows in desire and how we focus our attention. The ebb in this area of your life corresponds with a flow in another area.

If it seems stale to you then you are in an ebb, but there will be a flow at some point and you will be feeling randy again, LOL!!! The same with the empty or stoic feelings as well; as your life continues this will pass.

Do not confuse joy with enjoyment. Joy is a state of being that flows from the inside out, enjoyment results from an activity that pleases us and flows from the outside in. When we find balance there can be joy in every experience including ones commonly interpreted as bad or unhappy experiences. Why is this? Bad experiences are interpreted as bad because we contrast them with experiences we would rather have. So how we choose to view our experiences is what determines their value to us. There is no inherent value in any experience only the value we decide to give it.

As you learn to cease imposing value onto experiences you are left with the joy that flows from the inside out. All experiences may be enjoyed then and you will not feel the need to either save or discard your porn collection, you will be able to play your video games without depending on them to bring you joy or using them to measure your level of enjoyment.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Nexus
There's nothing inherently wrong with porn, masturbation
I don't want to side track GDA's thread but this statement is just really misleading. although basic premise of taoism is to maintain balance, porn and masturbation violates several basic taoist tenants/guidelines required to be followed for many practices. saying there's nothing wrong with it is actually ....... far from correct.

pornography is listed as the number one evil deed one can do. porn generate lust. lust generate misdeeds. excessive exposure to porn change the mental perspection of what is acceptable. sex crimes and and adultery some times follows. It sets off successive actions.

the thought of interacting with a female who is not your wife is a violation. thought in itself is action. so although one might break no law of Man, he is allowing his mind to be influence by the porns which he has exposed himself to. he is no longer in complete control.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Nice post!! well said and on point...

WanderingMonk: Read Scott's post with a discerning eye, it seems that you are imposing quite a few artificial values.. contrasting the experience with social consensus and indoctrinated mentoring.. the simple act of labeling an experience as "porn" attaches way too many values.. each experience can be examined on its own merits and in its own context.. some things one person labels as "porn" may be naive expressions of sincere passion/compassion to another.. Blanket statements of rigid dogmatic rhetoric seem a little inflexible.. it may be one perspective but is unlikely to represent some universal truth..

Be well..

[unixfudotnet]

some things one person labels as "porn" may be naive expressions of sincere passion/compassion to another

Show me a person that thinks this, and I will show you a person with deep set psychological mommy problems, with a distorted view of love and sexuality.

Porn is porn. No need to try to twist it. We all lust and have sexual urges (it is part of being human), and that is what porn is there for. That what porn is.

No need trying to over complicate the problem or anything. Sometimes a stick is just a stick.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

unixfudotnet:
No need trying to over complicate the problem or anything. Sometimes a stick is just a stick. Precisely, lust is just lust.. love is just love (regardless of who or what is loved).. it is the acceptance of labels and values such as "porn" that confuse the issues.. "porn" is a broad brush that is defined differently according to the observer.. call it what it is and abandon convenient labels like "porn".. Porn to a right-wing conservative Christian might very well differ from porn to an atheist..

Show me a person that thinks this, and I will show you a person with deep set psychological mommy problems, with a distorted view of love and sexuality.
LOL.. anyone that can conjure-up such a phrase is a likely candidate for its intent.. seems easy to dismiss such topics with psycho-babble rather than critically analyze the issues with an open mind.. but, if dogma and rhetoric satisfy one's standards, who am i to disturb their complacency..

Be well..

[unixfudotnet]

you think too much, or try to make it seem like you do.

either way, the point is the state of mind and how one views it, as you were saying, but porn will always be porn to whomever views it, if it is hbo porn or sloppy raw dirty rough sex camera right up in the action porn, it is still porn to the person.

so how it relates to others doesn't even matter, as we are talking about the person, not how others think of what someone else thinks (or their perception on reality for that matter).

again, you are putting too much into this, and it is clouding your mind as well :)

and it isn't psychobable. something isn't babble just because you do not understand it.

[scotty1]

"You know whats been hard as hell to give up tho? Death metal!"

Sorry if I've missed something, but why are you trying to give up death metal?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

unixfudotnet: In this, we should agree to disagree.. while i have my own perception of "porn", i am not inclined to assert that my definition is everyone else's.. the problem, as i see it, is that occasionally good honest artful treatment of sexuallity is treated as "dirty" or porn.. natural beauty is too often labeled as "porn" and subsequently degraded where no such intent or implication exists except in the mind of the observer.. dirty minds find dirt wherever they look..

again, you are putting too much into this, and it is clouding your mind as well Perhaps.. but oversimplification and broad generalization is equally problematic.. the basic concept of "it's all porn" is a little evasive and has right-wing overtones.. and, as for my comprehension skills for psycho-babble, they are quite nicely evolved.. i simply choose to avoid irrelevent commentary (and/or sarcasm)..


but porn will always be porn to whomever views it, if it is hbo porn or sloppy raw dirty rough sex camera right up in the action porn, it is still porn to the person. Here i would ask you to define "your" perception of porn.. not mine, not what you think it should be for others, but.. your own personal definition.. if you are suggesting that each person's individual concept of porn is what you mean when you use the term, then we agree.. if you believe there is defined standard applicable to all, we disagree..

Be well..

[monkeyfoot]

If nature is making you feel like this then why oppose it. Life should be like a still lake that reflects everything that comes passed it but once they are gone it holds onto them no more. To hold onto things that you dont feel attached to would be to go against tao.

Dont worry about where and what you should be doing but let nature continue with you living hand in hand with it.

craig

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by scotty1
"You know whats been hard as hell to give up tho? Death metal!"

Sorry if I've missed something, but why are you trying to give up death metal?

I hope i can articulate this well enough to you but, I been working on getting rid of all my negative thoughts. Trying to find the source of all my thinking towards people. Not to necessarily become more religious, though i've been reading quite alot about them and also psychology and have gotten some good ideas. I'm basically trying to become more "virtuous" i guess you could say, not to sound cheesy. I think i've made some progress though. Its all an effort to control my mind more.

It took me awhile to figure it out but the wrong type of music can be counter productive to that. I used to say that it never affected me. When i was depressed it actually made me feel better as crazy as that sounded to people. I wouldn't actually become violent since thats not in my nature. But i finally noticed my thoughts became more aggressive and hateful towards people after listening to it, and when my mind is genuinely calm which doesn't happen very often it was kind of unappealing to me. Thats sort of why it an acquired taste with non-fans.

Everyone realizes that music affects them emotionally but i dont think they know how far it goes. Alot of times it seems like people have thoughts that aren't even their own. Which is why propaganda or the "mob mentality" works so well. I think people are naturally compassionate but they have to find that again and alot of the things they do are fighting against it. If you listen to hateful things all day then thats gonna affect your thoughts no matter how much you dont realize it. Dont get me wrong. Im addicted to music and metal especially. I see them as some of the most talented musicians in the world. and not that "hardcore" garbage on MTV but genuine underground metal. But its ashame that they put so much energy into something so negative. If you take away the vocals its some of the most beautiful music your likely to come across. I was listening to some songs from "Formulas fatal to the flesh" by Morbid Angel case in point. I think they could hold their own against any classical or jazz musician.

Anyway. Those are my personal reasons. Dont get me wrong though. I wont give it aaall up tho. :D

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

unixfudotnet: In this, we should agree to disagree.. while i have my own perception of "porn", i am not inclined to assert that my definition is everyone else's.. the problem, as i see it, is that occasionally good honest artful treatment of sexuallity is treated as "dirty" or porn.. natural beauty is too often labeled as "porn" and subsequently degraded where no such intent or implication exists except in the mind of the observer.. dirty minds find dirt wherever they look.

...
Here i would ask you to define "your" perception of porn.. not mine, not what you think it should be for others, but.. your own personal definition.. if you are suggesting that each person's individual concept of porn is what you mean when you use the term, then we agree.. if you believe there is defined standard applicable to all, we disagree..



this speaks to the intention of the artist. the problem is do you truly know the intention of the artist?

some artists intends to shock, to stimulate, to arouse, to confuse, etc. all intends to elicit some type of response from the audience.

for sake of argument, we'll assume the artists have the purest intention only to display beauty, the problem is often the public is not prepare for these presentations. If the public suffers harms from the presentation, does the artist bear any responsibility? I would make the analogy of scientists creating the a-bomb. It is the height of scientific achievement, but when man do harm with it because as many have prove over and over again, we are not ready, do the sceintists bear no responsibility? should we view a-bomb as artisitic beauty or a "porn"? to answer this question you must ask yourself if you can really divoce effect and intentions? It might be unintended consequences, but it is consequence never-the-less.

so, if only a very small percentage of population can handle the "art", I would classify it as porn.

My def of porn is judge from the perspective of the viewer. If the viewer can handle it, then it is not porn. if not, then it is porn. by handle it, I mean he must be able to see it and completely unaffected by the experience. zero effect afterward as if it never happened, never seen it, short-memory. This requires high level of mental maturity and stability or large memory gaps. since I don't come close to this maturity, I label many things porn.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by monkeyfoot
If nature is making you feel like this then why oppose it. Life should be like a still lake that reflects everything that comes passed it but once they are gone it holds onto them no more. To hold onto things that you dont feel attached to would be to go against tao.

Dont worry about where and what you should be doing but let nature continue with you living hand in hand with it.

craig

this begs the question, are all human emotions naturally good. are there any destructive feeling which are also "natural"?

If there are people who are incline to violence because it is their nature, should they act on these impulses because it is "natural"? or does these "natural" destructive emotions require some mediation?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi WanderingMonk,

The urge to destroy originates from poor impulse control. Impulse control must be learned. Some individuals have a greater capacity for impulse control than others. Impulse control is primarily a learned skill with individual temperament playing a significant role as well. We begin to learn impulse control in childhood through the modeling and guidance of our parents. peers, teachers, etc.

The impulse to anger is naturally occurring; it comes from having a desire that is not fulfilled. That is, we become frustrated by not obtaining something we desire. This frustration causes emotional disequilibrium and we become out of balance. When we are unable to resolve our frustration the energy builds and so does the imbalance. When the energy reaches a critical point it will seek expression. The expression of the energy is an attempt by Tao to regain equilibrium. Under some conditions the expression may be in the form of a destructive force, but it is important to understand that the action is actually an attempt, on a subconscious level, to regain emotional balance, that is equilibrium. The destructive action is merely the outward expression of this attempt.

If we are to judge the appropriateness of the action we must also consider what did happen as opposed to what could have happened, For example; I would rather an individual break a dish rather than cut themselves. Both are expressions of destructive behavior, both destructive, but one less damaging then the other. The need for equilibrium becomes an imperative that under these conditions cannot be suppressed, so when faced with two evils we choose the lesser evil.

The individual under these circumstances is following natural principles and they cannot do otherwise. Excessive energy will be expressed. When imbalance reaches a critical point Tao will seek to regain balance. As individuals we can learn to assist this return to equilibrium through applying principles of Tao. But of course, we must first learn and understand the principles and then practice applying them.

From the World System view we may make a value judgment; we may say that there is a healthier and more productive means to deal with frustration. From a Taoist view we observe the action and place no value judgment upon it. We understand it for what it, an attempt to regain equilibrium. The permissibility of the action is a World System judgment and we may chose to make adjustments in the action based upon the consequences that are accrued in the World System. For example: I get frustrated and I burn down a building; I go to jail. I don’t want to go to jail, so I choose to learn a more beneficial means of relieving my frustration. That is a pragmatic decision based upon the World System consequences of my action, but does not disregard the fact the action was an expression of Tao in action.


Feelings of anger and frustration are natural and a part of Tao. The manner of expressing them can be constructive or destructive, but what ever means used they are all expressions of Tao seeking equilibrium.

The sexual impulse is biological in origin and cannot rightly be compared to the destructive urge as it seems you have intended in your example. The destructive force is, in general, emotionally based, while the sexual urge is biologically based.

A man’s brain function predisposes him to find visual stimuli sexually appealing; this is in accordance with the Tao as it applies to male nature. The appropriateness of pornography does not obviate these facts. The reason porno exists is because it fulfills a need in men, i.e. it assists in maintaining the equilibrium of the sexual impulse.

A women’s brain function predisposes her to finding expressions of romance sexually stimulating. It is not the visual stimulus that tends to affect women, but the relationships expressed. The reason that romance novels and movies exist is the same reason porno exists. Each fulfils a function according to the nature of men and women. Thus each are following the Tao according to their nature.

Those formulating arguments against porno do not understand the true nature of the Tao and are attempting to apply World System values to something that transcends the World System. World System values come and go. They change with each new civilization, but the Tao is eternal and unchanging within its own nature. Its processes cannot be avoided, but they can be misunderstood and therefore misapplied. I encourage all too continually observe the processes of Tao that we may better bring ourselves into accord with them, rather than to bicker over transient World System values.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Again, nicely said..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Very well said Scott.

Was it Shakespear who said it well: To thy own seld be true?

GDA, it's good to remove some things from life if you find them to have a negative impact, hours in front of the computer draining yourself, maybe taking energy away that you could be sharing with your wife.

At the same time, it may relax you and keep you from bugging your wife and you guys can enjoy time together differently.

It's all good if its good for you. If it works.

There are no rules to this game because the game has not been defined, it's continously unfolding and we each get to define the rules for ourselves and live and learn from the consequences. Isn't that the point?

[Buddy]

However convenient it may be to think we can decide "our perception" of words, as Bob would have it, in fact thet have real, concrete, and sometimes legal meanings. Pornography is one such word. Webster defines it as "writings, pictures, etc, intended primarily to arouse sexual desire."


"the basic concept of "it's all porn" is a little evasive and has right-wing overtones.. "

Nonsense. There is nothing political about calling a spade a spade. If it designed to arouse, it's pornography. How you feel about pornography is your business, and in some cases, for instance if children are involved, the government's business.

""porn" is a broad brush that is defined differently according to the observer.. call it what it is and abandon convenient labels like "porn".. Porn to a right-wing conservative Christian might very well differ from porn to an atheist.."

No, it's not. Arousal is a non-partisan feeling. You let your political views cloud your writing here.

"i simply choose to avoid irrelevent commentary (and/or sarcasm).."

I would contend that you don't avoid it. Bringing politics into a subject about the desire to give up pornography is, to me, irrelevent.

"the problem, as i see it, is that occasionally good honest artful treatment of sexuallity is treated as "dirty" or porn.."

Well you would have to define 'dirty', as you perceive it. Porn already has a definintion.

"natural beauty is too often labeled as "porn" and subsequently degraded where no such intent or implication exists except in the mind of the observer"

Really? Under what specific circumstance? A woman's body, while it may be (god love em) very arousing, is not designed specifically for arousal. Different cultures find different attributes attractive. Everyone of them know which of those attributes arouse.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(A woman's body, while it may be (god love em) very arousing, is not designed specifically for arousal)

some one should let the women know this:cool:

[bamboo_ leaf]

(taoists: letting go of ego and petty desires without killing basic joy)

I think the idea of not killing basic joy is a desire of the ego in its self. Its an attempt to control and classify things with the idea of an out come, a desire.

As you still the mind, quite the mind, you will gain a freedom just from allowing the basic truth of who and what you are to come naturally .

[Zenshiite]

It is quite rediculous the concept that the so-called "World System" values would be down played here...

One must realize the necessity of transient social and moral codes for the harmonious co-existence of human beings. In abscence of such things, one person acts out on an impulse of which some would say is the "Tao attempting to reach equilibrium" and another person similarly reacts to the imbalance created for him by the other's attempt at re-balance.

We call that chaos, we'd have an endless cycle of warring with rarely any lulls.

Socially acceptable virtues are guidelines which Sages have given humanity that we might better absorb ourselves in Tao.

The simple truth of the matter of pornography is this: the use of such material makes most men predisposed to viewing women in a particular way. This view is not a rosy one. It is one of sexual predation. To ignore this Truth is to be in denial.

Let us say you see a beautiful woman who is not your wife, and instead of looking at her with lustful intention(which projects your chi outwards towards the woman) you cast your gaze away... preserving the chi that would have otherwise been directed outward.

i know that when i used pornography for sexual stimulation it not only altered my view of HOW to arouse a woman and what to expect from her, but i also few physically depleted even if i did not masturbate(by masturbation i would mean the self-stimulation of the sexual organ culminating in ejaculation/orgasm). Even more depleted WITH ejaculation.

In theory one could set the yang fire burning, but yang depletes swiftly and more so when you're directing your chi out through your eyes while viewing such material.

Worse yet is the idea that masturbation is not "wrong" or "harmful." Such a view is incredibly contrary to Taoist teaching, and it most certainly DOES harm you.

In case you've never studied sexual alchemy, here's the run down: You ejaculate you lose jing, you lose jing you have less "battery acid" as source for chi, the less you chi you have the less you can cultivate shen. Unregulated ejaculation, particularly without the benefit of absorbing yin jing through intercourse with a woman both vaginally and orally, will inevitably damage your practice of the Nei Jia arts. Semen retention is incredibly important to the practice of the Taoist arts and attaining immortality.

Scott, while you're waxing philosophical... maybe you should let the air out of that ego of your's instead of thinking that YOU understand the True Nature of Tao. Perhaps your understanding is not as refined as you think it is. Statements like "Those formulating arguments against porno do not understand the true nature of the Tao " are incredibly egotistical.

Peace.

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank you TaiChiBob and EvolutionFist for your kind words!!!!


Hi Zenshiite,

There seems to be misunderstanding about some of my comments. I will try to simply and clarify:

1) It was not my intention to play down the World System. It is, after all, one of the expressions of Tao. However, it is an artificial system that varies from culture to culture and to time periods of history. As an artificial system it is arbitrary and is formulated according to the values of a particular culture and time in history. The values accepted are themselves transient and clearly change over time. One very notable change prevalent to our current culture is the admission of H*m*sexuals to the clergy in some churches. From the beginnings of the Christian church up to certainly 20-30 years ago this would have been anathema. While it is still considered anathema among many Christians it is becoming more prevalent. Cultural values have changed over time and so the World System view of many Christians has changed as well. Our cultural values will continue to change back and forth between the contrasting views of conservative and liberal as human history continues. It is not necessary to take my word on this fact. Simply do some comprehensive reading of history and it will become self-evident.

My intention was to explain that as students of Tao it is important for us to recognize what is transient and to keep what is transient in proper context within our personal world view. Often we attempt to force our own World Views onto Tao. A follower of Tao seeks to understand the patterns and rhythms of Tao and accommodate himself to those rhythms and patterns. We conform to Tao, not force Tao into our idea of what we think it should be. If we force our preconceived views onto Tao the consequence is misperception leading to a misunderstanding of the processes of Tao. Now, this wont hurt the Tao in the least, but it will lead us to erroneous conclusion about Tao which will affect our life experiences.

World System structures have their place and purpose as expressions of Tao. But they are transient and do not reflect complete Tao if taken out of their proper context.

2) The view that sexual urges and emissions as draining to the chi and therefore negative may or may not be valid depending upon how one views the processes of Tao and the effects of chi.

There are actually 3 primary schools of Taosim; Contemplative Taosim, Hsien (Immortal) Taoism, and Superstitious or Religious Taosim.

I will not concern us with Religious Taoism here because our discussion relates only to Contemplative and Hsien Taosim. Most students of Tao in our present culture are students of Hsien. It is the path of most that follow such schools as Tai Chi and other internal MA styles. This form of Taosim is preoccupied with the cultivation, storage and specific utilization of chi.

One view held in these circles is that the male emissions during sex deplete the male of vital chi. It must be understood that this is nothing more than another World System view. We will experience in our lives the effects we expect to have. If one believes they are depleted they will subconsciously selectively ignore any facts to the contrary, thereby supporting their view with erroneous evidence. One bit of evidence that is cited is we do actually feel drained, but this feeling is nothing more than a parasympathetic nervous system response to ejaculation and this “FEELING” can be overridden or superseded. Just because one is unable to do this does not make it not so.

Secondly, from another perspective sexual emissions are actually a way of balancing chi. If there was no biological, emotional or psychological need for ejaculation there would not be ejaculation. When there is a build up of sexual tension (chi) there is the NATURAL urge to express that build up. This occurs during ejaculation. Ejaculation is a process of Tao and one of its pruposes is to NATURALLY regain balance. It is a misunderstanding to think our goal is to find and maintain balance, i.e. a still point. The goal is to accept without undo hindrance the rhythmic interplay between complimentary and contrasting principles; to interfere with this constant interplay is to be out of accord with Tao. Therefore, sexual urges and emissions are a NATURAL process of life and in accordance with the flow of Tao. To inhibit ones natural urges in order to preserve chi is actually working against Tao, as we are artificially inhibiting our natural flow.

The Contemplative Taoist view is to study and understand the natural expression of Tao and to bring one’s self into accord with it. Under this process there is no need to cultivate and store chi. Chi is naturally occurring in all things and when left alone will find its own level as water finds its own level. The Contemplative Taoist compares the artificial cultivation of chi with a person attempting to calm the water in his sink by smothing it with his hands. The action merely creates more agitation. In truth, chi will find its own and proper level by simply leaving it alone and bringing oneself into accord with Tao. Doing this, ones chi level will naturally find its own healthy level. If an imbalance occurs it will return to balance by following natural urges like the urge for sex, sleep, exercise, eating, etc. That is why the sages say, “When I walk, I walk, when I am tired I lie down, when I am hungry, I eat.” The natural flow of Tao will intuitively guide us to the proper actions that leads to equilibrium.

Understanding this we must remember that there is no actual "still point" of balance, but equilibrium is attained through the alternating and dynamic interplay of contrasting principles. So in actuality natural balance is not an immovable point of being, but a rhythmic fluctuation between contrasting principles resulting in equilbrium without stagnation. As demonstrated by Yin-Yang, there is an alternating dominance of each principle in a sort of comsic dance of cooperation. Therefore, it is part of the NATURAL flow of Tao to sometimes be too yang and sometimes be too yin. It is when one remains too long in either state or finds oneself too far to the extreme that we may find ourselves out of accord with Tao.

Thank you for your concern about my ego. But is seems your intent is neither constructive nor benevolent. I encourage you to preoccupy yourself with your own ego and allow me to be responsible for mine.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nice, Scott.. Well said and very insightful as to the relationship of Tao as a dynamic interplay of contrasts..

A mentor of mine once said, "it is, what it is", any other judgements, labels or descriptions are simply mental contrivances, abstractions, and removed from the experience itself..

Regarding loss of jing through ejactulation, consider that nature takes its own course (nocturnal emissions) when we fail to adequately maintain our own equilibrium.. "when the vessel is full it overflows of its own accord, a simple expression of Tao".. Sexual urges are basic expressions Tao, to overly manipulate them is contrary..

"World System"?.. i suggest that any observer look at today's "world system" with a discerning eye.. it is in crisis, pulled and pushed by opposing ideologies.. it is more transient than ever, an unlikely model for stability.. As the world moves more and more toward highly structured value systems and government/political/social/religious ideologies shape the common people's experiences "chaos" seems to emerge as the most evident product.. Lao Tzu said less government is better, people left to their own devices will find their own balance.. imposed balance has never survived..

I notice that it is a common error by most people to assume that their individual perspective is correct and should be applicable to others..
"i know that when i used pornography for sexual stimulation it not only altered my view of HOW to arouse a woman and what to expect from her" .. that is simply one person's perception of an experience, not necessarily a standard.. and, again, "pornography" needs to be defined in a dialogue of this nature.. one person's pornography is likely to be another person's art..


We call that chaos, we'd have an endless cycle of warring with rarely any lulls. .. no, "we" assumes that you speak for me as well.. i, personally, sense that moving toward Tao through experience will enhance the human condition.. others will set their reality in motion with preconceived notions of chaos and war.. that is where the "world system" prejudices one's perceptions, setting artificial conditions as necessary to validate its own agendas.. truth is self-evident, until we let others define it for us..


The simple truth of the matter of pornography is this: the use of such material makes most men predisposed to viewing women in a particular way. This view is not a rosy one. It is one of sexual predation. To ignore this Truth is to be in denial.
Again, that is a projection of someone's own value system.. an attempt to impose standards where none exist.. each person's individual perceptions vary as well as their interpretations.. each person should have a reasonable right to their choice of experiences in so much as it involves consentual behavior and DOES NO HARM within the value systems confined to consentual participants.. otherwise, we are attempting to manipulate matters not of our concern or legislate morallity..


Let us say you see a beautiful woman who is not your wife, and instead of looking at her with lustful intention(which projects your chi outwards towards the woman) you cast your gaze away... preserving the chi that would have otherwise been directed outward.

Here is the difference.. where one person may interpret their experience as "lustful intention", i may interpret the same experience as a sincere appreciation for the feminine form and spirit.. and we should let such transient and devisive notions as "beautiful" be less of a factor..

Sometimes, life (Tao) simply presents that which one expects.. change your perspectives, change your reality..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Secondly, from another perspective sexual emissions are actually a way of balancing chi. If there was no biological, emotional or psychological need for ejaculation there would not be ejaculation. When there is a build up of sexual tension (chi) there is the NATURAL urge to express that build up. This occurs during ejaculation. Ejaculation is a process of Tao and one of its pruposes is to NATURALLY regain balance. It is a misunderstanding to think our goal is to find and maintain balance, i.e. a still point. The goal is to accept without undo hindrance the rhythmic interplay between complimentary and contrasting principles; to interfere with this constant interplay is to be out of accord with Tao. Therefore, sexual urges and emissions are a NATURAL process of life and in accordance with the flow of Tao. To inhibit ones natural urges in order to preserve chi is actually working against Tao, as we are artificially inhibiting our natural flow.


Scott,

This explaination of the harmony through sex although interesting, I do not agree with it.

The ying and yang is in each individual and it is to bring yin yang to harmony within this individual. this conceptualization of two sex explaination is banned by many schools for several reasons including the ease for abuse. there are other issues which is unsuitable for a public forum, nor do I wish to fully elaborate further, so I will just disagree.

I will propose a question that a prostitute have many sexual partners, does this bring her higher harmony as according to this above explaination? I am pointiing directly to some who are not forced into prostitution. There are some who choose it because they like sex. will they have achieve harmony via this above explaination?

If you can, I would like to see an elaboration on the pure yang body concept in reference to this sexual harmony exlaination.

I hold the view that a porous vessel gathers no water. I think it is best to just agree to disagree.

wm

[Ray Pina]

To get back to the topic of pornography, I think it could BECOME harmful.

Yes, sex and sexual emissions are natural and necessary. But if one turns pornography into a habit, and turns there day in and day out as a sort of escape, sort of like going to the local bar for an hour, that release has now become unnatural, more than the body realy needs. It has become a mental release instead of a physical one and may leave short term -- and if continued, long term -- side effects.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Anyway, Scott, your writing really makes the Tao come alive. Have you ever considered writing a book?

Ray Pina

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


This explaination of the harmony through sex although interesting, I do not agree with it.

Firstly, the universe (Tao) allowed form and function to evolve into the vessels we call bodies.. without "sex" the evolution ceases.. Of course harmony can, and should, be found in physical relationships.. it is repression/supression of these natural tendencies that strays from the natural "way" (ie: Catholic pedophile syndrome.. prison sexual deviations.. etc...).. there is balance and design in the form and function of male and female versions of the human form.. too often leaders and influential members of sects and cults and sub-sets of humanity promote their own issues as applicable for all.. for those that take issue with healthy expressions of sexuallity i suggest they clean their own house before setting standards for others..

Of course there are harmful expressions of sexuallity.. those should be avoided and modified through negative reinforcement.. but, i sense that "harmful" is liberally interpreted as contrasting certain beliefs and values where no actual harm exists..


will they have achieve harmony via this above explaination?

They can, provided their intention is appropriately focused.. Harmony is much more than any single perspective, i often sense that chaos is simply harmony which we are not yet capable of comprehending.. let go of prejudices and dogmatic value systems, you may find harmony in places you never dreamed of in the confines specialized "systems"..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

TaiChiBob and EvolutionFist, once again thank you for your kind words. Yes, I have considered writing a book, but I have not reached a decision yet, thank you for the encouraging comments.



Hi WanderingMonk,

I think there is some misunderstanding of my point. I never intended to advocate “harmony through sex", or rather sex as a means to achieve ultimate equilibrium. I think you misunderstood. My point is:

1) Sexual relations are a natural process of Tao.
2) As a natural process of Tao it is healthy to engage in sexual relations.
3) If one inhibits their sexual urge they are not in accord with Tao.
4) Sexual emissions do not necessarily drain one of vital energy.
5) Sexual emissions are part of a healthy natural process that assists in the equalization of yin and yang energies. And as such are,
6) a natural and necessary process of life (Tao).

The belief that this is not so is erroneous and based upon non-Taoist principles. The confusion comes about because many believe that Hsien Taoism is Taoism. But it is not. Hsien Taoism attempts to cultivate, preserve, and voluntarily direct the movement of Chi; this is not Taosim.

Taosim is the practice of observing, studying, and understanding the processes of life (Tao) and accommodating ourselves to that process. Don’t believe me? I refer you to anything written by Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu as evidence. Don’t take my word for it, read them and see for yourself. If the cultivation of Chi is so essential to Taoism the fathers of Taoism would certainly have addressed this very important point. Since they did not we may conclude they not only found it unnecessary, but not even important enough to mention.

The cultivation of Chi is nothing more than the development of a skill. It is no different than developing any other skill or ability in life. It is the same as lifting weights in order to develop stronger muscles or practicing kicks in order to develop better kicking ability. In this case one is developing the ability to cultivate, preserve and utilize Chi; that is all. The schools teaching the cultivation of Chi do not teach how to accommodate oneself to Tao, they teach the principles of Chi, Just as I must follow the principles of weight training to become stronger I must follow the principles of Chi training to develop and manipulate Chi. Chi is no more important to accommodating myself to Tao than weight training or any other activity.

Certainly I may apply the principles of Tao to the cultivation of Chi, and weight training and the practice of kicking, just as I may apply the principles of Tao to any activity. But applying principles of Tao to an activity does not automatically make the practice a Taoist practice. The ONLY Taoist practice is the study, understanding and accommodating of ourselves to Tao. This is not what occurs in many schools of Hsien Taosim and therefore they are not true Taoism. How can I say this? It is very simple. To inhibit a natural process of life demonstrates ignorance of Tao, not conformity to its processes. The fact that many Hsien schools teach the inhibition of sexual urges demonstrates their ignorance of Taoist principles. To inhibit any of our natural urges is to be out of accord with Tao. I cite Chuang-tzu, chapter 20, the Watson translation as cited in “Tao, the Watercourse Way”, by Alan Watts, page 98:

Mark what I say! In the case of the body, it is best to let it go along with things. In the case of the emotions, it is best to let them follow where they will. By going along with things, you avoid becoming separated from them. By letting the emotions follow as they will, you avoid fatigue.

I see nothing here that tells me to inhibit or suppress natural urges in order to preserve Chi. Chuang-tzu explicitly tells us to allow the body to follow its natural urges.

If you follow a school of Chi cultivation that is fine, but be aware that it is not Taoism, but a school for the cultivation of Chi; regardless of how much the word Tao is used in their teachings.

Chuang-tzu uses the example of a butcher who applies the principles of Tao to his craft and the result is an ability to cut without ever dulling his cleaver. However, the butcher did not accommodate himself to Tao in order to become a better butcher, but one of the effects of bringing himself into accord with Tao was an exceptional ability in his craft. The exceptional skill was a side effect, not a cause of his being in accord with Tao. If he sought to improve his craft only he would not have succeed because his focus would have been too narrow. The focus on effects does not lead one to an understanding of Tao, only the studying of The Ultimate Cause (Tao) brings understanding.

“To those who accommodate to Tao, all things are completed”; not my words, Lao-Tzu’s words (I believe chapter 37.).

So what is one to do?

Well do whatever you are inclined to do, do what you enjoy. This is what Chuang-tzu’s butcher did. He accommodated himself to Tao first, and became a superior butcher as a natural consequence. So if learning Chi cultivation is what makes your boat float, go to it, enjoy it and have fun. BUT anything that inhibits your natural processes will actually inhibit your ability whatever your area of study happens to be. If you inhibit your natural urges whether they be emotional, intellectual, physical or sexual, you will inhibit your Chi cultivation.

Chi flow is inhibited by blockages; these blockages are primarily created by the mind, but are commonly expressed by the body. To treat the body is to treat the effect and not the cause. As long as you address the effect and not the cause blockages will continue to reappear. To permanently eliminate blockages one must address the cause. By bringing ourselves into accord with Tao we eliminate blockages at the source and are no longer plagued with Chi blockages. This is a once and for all solution, not the temporary solution taught by many Hsien Taoist methods wherein Chi must be constantly cultivated and preserved. One who is in accord with Tao has no blockages to Chi flow and no shortage of Chi. Chi cultivation schools teach the small path, while the accommodation to the processes of Tao is the Great Path.

On the continuing subject of pornography…..

No one here has suggested that porno cannot be abused. All things may be abused. To summarily criticize porno without qualification is the same as me saying, “Alcohol consumption should be outlawed for all people, because my father was killed by a drunk driver.” Certainly many people are killed every year by drunk drivers, including my father, but there are millions of people all over the world who drink responsibly. If we were to outlaw everything that could be abused, nothing would be lawful. As with everything else in life, porn has it place and its limitations and it is not for everyone, just as alcohol is not for everyone.

What is important for this discussion is to recognize that it exists, understand it always has existed, and it is very popular; this indicates that it is a natural process of Tao. For those who seek to accommodate themselves to Tao, merely keep it in proper and healthy perspective, and do not over do it. However, occasional over doing it is also a process of Tao.

[Buddy]

Scott,
"One very notable change prevalent to our current culture is the admission of H*m*sexuals to the clergy in some churches. From the beginnings of the Christian church up to certainly 20-30 years ago this would have been anathema."

First of all to say christian church is to imply uniformity. This has never been the case. Paul travelled so much not only evangelizing but to try to keep order and hetrodoxy among the divergent sects. From the very beginning there has not been a catholic church regardless how much the the bishop of Rome may have wanted it so. Second I would say that ****sexuals were encouraged to join a cloister and the Roman church became a haven for them. This obviously does not jibe with church doctrine but when was doctrine ever a standard for truth? Thirdly I think you will find very few christian churches admitted openly gay men to their clergy.

"While it is still considered anathema among many Christians it is becoming more prevalent."

No, I don't believe it is. Individual christians may tolerate or embrace ****sexuals and their lifestyle but their churches, for the most part, do not.


"One bit of evidence that is cited is we do actually feel drained, but this feeling is nothing more than a parasympathetic nervous system response to ejaculation and this “FEELING” can be overridden or superseded. Just because one is unable to do this does not make it not so."


OK then what sort of empiric evidence would convince you? I could tell you I'm hungry and just because I could override the feeling does not make it not so. The ability to ignore or "supercede" a feeling or emotion does not imply their non existence.


Bob,
"Regarding loss of jing through ejactulation, consider that nature takes its own course (nocturnal emissions) when we fail to adequately maintain our own equilibrium.. "when the vessel is full it overflows of its own accord, a simple expression of Tao".. Sexual urges are basic expressions Tao, to overly manipulate them is contrary.."

But GDA's point was his overuse of pornography, which as I defined it, is designed to arouse. So if one is constantly ejatulating do to overuse of porn, there is no balance. When hungry, eat. When tired, rest. I guess when aroused, ejaculate. But to constantly seek arousal is imbalanced.

""World System"?.. i suggest that any observer look at today's "world system" with a discerning eye.. it is in crisis, pulled and pushed by opposing ideologies.. it is more transient than ever, an unlikely model for stability.. As the world moves more and more toward highly structured value systems and government/political/social/religious ideologies shape the common people's experiences "chaos" seems to emerge as the most evident product.. "

And I suggest that it has always seemed so to every generation.


"that is simply one person's perception of an experience, not necessarily a standard.. and, again, "pornography" needs to be defined in a dialogue of this nature.. one person's pornography is likely to be another person's art"

No, pornography already has a perfectly reasonable definition. Whether or not one decides one piece of pornography is art or not is simply interpretation.

"where one person may interpret their experience as "lustful intention", i may interpret the same experience as a sincere appreciation for the feminine form and spirit.. and we should let such transient and devisive notions as "beautiful" be less of a factor.."

You said it this way: "no, "we" assumes that you speak for me as well"

"there is balance and design in the form and function of male and female versions of the human form...for those that take issue with healthy expressions of sexuallity i suggest they clean their own house before setting standards for others..

Granting that 'balance and design in form and function of male and female...'; is ****sexual sex NOT a healthy expression?

[Zenshiite]

The traditional Taoist view has been that ****sexual sex is imbalanced. Yang to yang relations can be likened to the reactions of two positively charged ends of magnets... they repell.

The same happens between two men and their energies.

Female ****sexuality, while imbalanced... is passive(magnet example again, try two negatively charged ends) neither attracting or repelling.

As Scott and Bob failed to noticed, i spoke of unregulated ejaculation ie excessive ejaculation.

If one is constantly seeking arousal through pornography... this clearly belies a psychological addiction to the material itself... and if self-stimulation to ejaculation occurs this WILL release jing... which is like battery acid for chi. Spinal fluid is released with ejaculation.

Nowhere have i advocated complete cessation of ejaculation or celibacy. Such ideas are foolish and futile, leading inexorably to imbalance resulting in examples that Bob has brought to the table like the Catholic church's pedophilia problem.

Scott, you are presuming to speak FOR Tao... and while you're at it, you're speaking from the "world system" view that you've been initiated into.. as is Bob. Meanwhile, you're ignoring millenia of work in the field of TCM in favor of your philosophical bent.

Balance and imbalance are all expressions of Tao... nevertheless, imbalance is destructive. For the vast majority pornography DOES damage. Look into studies on the psychological effects of such material. i'm not denegrating the sexual urge, to the contrary i am all for it. Indulgence, however, is contrary to non-attachment and harmony. There is something imbalanced about craving the fantasy that pornography(by the way, it is called pornography because it means "writing about prostitutes") offers over the real deal. Usually pornography depicts an admixture of power and violence over the subject of sexual acts. This DOES have an adverse effect on the consciousness of the viewer, it also speaks for the unharmonious state of the producers of this material. This will lead to a degeneration of virtue.

Peace,
Dawud

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Zenshiite,

I am not speaking for Tao nor am I speaking my own ideas; I am repeating the principles taught by Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu. I have cited one passage by Chuang-tzu already here is another one wherein he ridicules breathing exercising for longevity purposes:

To exhale and inhale, to puff out old breath and draw in new,, to stretch like a bear and crane like a bird, with concern only for longevity-all this is induced [contrived] Tao, practiced by hygienists [Hsien Taoists] who hope to live as long as Peng-tzu

(Quoted from “Tao, the Watercourse Way”, by Alan Watts, page 114, citations available there)


Here follows another found here: http://ratmachines.com/philosophy/chuangtzu/chuangtzu.htm


Placidity, indifference, silence, quietude, absolute vacancy, and non-action:—these are the qualities which maintain the level of heaven and earth and are the substance of the Tao and its characteristics.

In accordance with this it is said, The sage is entirely restful, and so (his mind) is evenly balanced and at ease. This even balance and ease appears in his placidity and indifference. In this state of even balance and ease, of placidity and indifference, anxieties and evils do not find access to him, no depraving influence can take him by surprise; his virtue is complete, and his spirit continues unimpaired.

Your views concerning sex are a reflection of Hsien Taoism which is not classical Taosim, but a misapplication of Tao for the purposes of obtaining powers. The attempt to obtain powers is not in accord with process of Tao. Please help me correct my erroneous views by citing any passages by Lao-tzu or Chuang-tzu, the universally accepted fathers of Taoist principles, which support the obtaining of powers or the preservation of sexual energy. Everything they write supports my view. Not because it is my view, but because I accommodate my view to the Tao and use these fathers as my guide.

If one is attempting to artificially obtain anything in life they are out of a accord with Tao. Chi is naturally occurring and flows according to its own nature. To control it artificially is to obstruct it is flow. Just as water flows, so does Chi. Just as water stagnates, so does Chi.

I am of the opinion that everyone should learn their own lessons in life. I am not attempting to criticize anyone for following Hsien Taoist principles. If you enjoy the activity, go to it and have fun. Just understand it is not the Taoist philosophy of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu.

[Buddy]

Ahhhh. I knew it would come to this. I am tired but will attempt to address these. You shouldn't care one way or the other if it's keeping you up.
"Your views concerning sex are a reflection of Hsien Taoism which is not classical Taosim, but a misapplication of Tao for the purposes of obtaining powers."

Ah, classical taoism. How quaint a term. IMO an ignorant and pompous term.

"The attempt to obtain powers is not in accord with process of Tao."

Nonsense. If I am a farmer and develop a system of irrigation so that I don't have to rely on the rain or pulling water from a river on the strength of my back, that's not "in accord with the process of Tao?"


"Please help me correct my erroneous views by citing any passages by Lao-tzu or Chuang-tzu, the universally accepted fathers of Taoist principles,"

Universally accepted? By those whom you agree with, that's all. You intimate here that these principles exist only within a particular time and culture. And I'm certain you don't subscribe to that. You talk about the tao as if it were a universal principle on one hand and can only describe it based on two old guys alleged writing on the other.

"which support the obtaining of powers or the preservation of sexual energy. Everything they write supports my view."

What a load of crap. Everything they write ignores your view. Just as it does the other view. So the idea that these two (alleged) fellows did not write about something proves to you it was not important to them? Did they write about bathroom habits or that you should cook pork all the way through?

"Not because it is my view, but because I accommodate my view to the Tao and use these fathers as my guide."


No because you interpret so that it conforms to a view of what you think this thing you call taoism is.

"If one is attempting to artificially obtain anything in life they are out of a accord with Tao."

You miss a great deal. If wife is enseminated or I adopt, is that out of accord to this tao thing?

"Chi is naturally occurring and flows according to its own nature. To control it artificially is to obstruct it is flow. Just as water flows, so does Chi. Just as water stagnates, so does Chi."

Facrissakes, have you never heard of dams? Do you think these ancients would rather have their rice fields overflow every spring?

You know there's a forest amongst all those trees.

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is a humorous story I came across:

One day I met a man who said he was a bicyclist.

“That is cool”, I said. “What kind of bike do you ride?”

“Oh! I don’t ride a bike”, he replied
.
“What?” I said.

“I don’t ride a bike”, he repeated.

“I see”, I continued, “But you do bicycle, right?

“No” he answered.

“Well what do you do?” I asked.

“I run a little and sometimes swim”, was his response.

“But you ride a stationary bike right?”

“No I don’t do any of that stuff, but I do watch a lot of it on TV” he insisted.

“Well then, you are not a bicyclist” I stated.

“How dare you tell me that” he said with indignation, “There is a long history of people who are bicyclists that don’t ride bikes.”

“Well, I don’t understand” I queried, “How can someone be called a bicyclist if he never rides a bike?”

“Because my coach is a bicyclist” he answered.

“Oh!!!!! I see, I understand now”, I said, “Your coach is bicyclist, I misunderstood, I guess.”

“Yes”, he replied, “he is a bicyclist too.”

“OK, what kind of bike does he ride?”

“He doesn’t ride a bike”, the man replied.

“But he used to ride bikes right?”

“No he runs and swims too.”

“Well, where does the bike come into your exercise program”, I asked.

“Well we talk about it a lot and use the word bicycle in our training regime”, he answered, “Oh, yeah!!!!” he added, “We also have a lot of pictures of bikes on the wall”.

[Buddy]

Perhaps humorous isn't the right word...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Absolutely!! i agree that pornograpgy (definition subjective) can be and is abused.. that is a harmful expression of Tao, but Tao none-the-less.. My point is that there is no standard for "pornography", it varies according to the observer.. the application of artificial standards often creates the illusion of "harm" where none exists.. As i understand it, there is nothing that is not Tao.. the issue is consequences, harmful or beneficial..

Having said that, i have to admit a certain amusement to all of "our" assertions of Tao.. "the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. i think we entertain ourselves with heart-felt gusto, but we might be assuming a bit too much dominion over the subject..


No, pornography already has a perfectly reasonable definition. Please, for the clarity, express that definition here.. i am unfamiliar with a clear definition.. heck, even the Supreme Court has trouble with it..


Granting that 'balance and design in form and function of male and female...'; is ****sexual sex NOT a healthy expression? I do not perceive it as such, but respect the rights of those that choose so.. in fact, i have defended those rights.. the ability to choose our destiny ranks very high in my perception of qualities that enhance my existence..

I do not wish to be perceived as contradictory or arguementative, only as searching for opinions and insights to either add validity to my own perceptions or to point me toward a more beneficial perception.. i speak only from my own understanding of Tao (or lack thereof)..

Be well..

[Buddy]

"Please, for the clarity, express that definition here.. i am unfamiliar with a clear definition.. heck, even the Supreme Court has trouble with it.. "

Well I did in a previous post, but I guess my direct posting style caused you ignore it.

"Having said that, i have to admit a certain amusement to all of "our" assertions of Tao.. "the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. i think we entertain ourselves with heart-felt gusto, but we might be assuming a bit too much dominion over the subject.."


Now this is a statement with which I can heartliy agree.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy: please point me to the CLEAR definition of pornography you previously posted.. or try again.. it's not that i ignored it, it may be that i am just too scattered to recognize it.. this is a sincere attempt to grasp other peoples' interpretations of "porn".. it may be that should re-examine my own perceptions, but i need input to see how others perceive it..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Scott R. Brown

Mark what I say! In the case of the body, it is best to let it go along with things. In the case of the emotions, it is best to let them follow where they will. By going along with things, you avoid becoming separated from them. By letting the emotions follow as they will, you avoid fatigue.

[/B]

Let emotion arise and let emotion goes their natural course. for they are external to my inner self. They do not disturb my inner peace. If there's a urge to destroy/harm/saddness/excessive joy, that is external to me. I need not feel guilt over it. Allow it to comes and allow it to go.

The issue is what does this go along with the flow means, how do you define the proper equilibrium, and what actions are proper?

Some of your explaination although is what are in Lao Zi and Chuang Zi's writing is not applicable to ever one at every instance. A person, who does not have have a natural equilibrium, cannot apply these principles properly and they end up abusing it.

What I am saying is there is a natural norm, each individual have his/her own norm, but these individual norms doesn't necessarily reflect the natural norm.

mild case
A child who wants a toy, which his parents had denied him, refuse to be tempered and throw a fit because his desire is not satisfied. is this going along with the natural order? He is following his emotion. He naturaly allow his emotion to arise and act upon it. Yet, after the fit, he is drained and tired.

severe case
A ex-con who needs money revert back to his old way and robbed someone for money. He followed his emotion and acted upon it. Is this what chuang zi is saying?

Chuang zi said no such thing, what he was speaking to was the excessive constraint a practioner placed upon himself to rid himself of his ill emotion. the practioner suffers guilt and suppress his emotions. He end up fighting himself and exhaust himself without learning that these desires are external to himself. Let them come and let them go, the practioner is the master and he need not answer to them. They don't control him. He controls them. He become their slaves when he endlessly respond to them.

What I find objectionable with your presentation is that without clearly explain that there is a universial norm which must be followed, the discussion of dao often become a tool some uses to justify heonism, etc, etc, etc.

People take following the dao to be following their own deisres and mental delusion without comtemplating what the universial norm is. Therefore, they use it to justify whatever deprivity they act out. I find this extremely dangerous. Although this is not necessary what you are justifying, your presentation when in the hand of a person with less maturity and training often are abused.

The cultivating of chi is a different issue. Since you don't practice this method, there's no need for further discussion.

PS: Lao zi wrote: The true dao cannot be spoken. Hence, may be his writing does not reflect the entirity of dao. remember, english translation of a text that only approximate dao will only leave out more info.

[Buddy]

"... in fact they have real, concrete, and sometimes legal meanings. Pornography is one such word. Webster defines it as "writings, pictures, etc, intended primarily to arouse sexual desire."

How's that?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy: thanks..

That would include a lot of commercial TV, eh?

What arouses "sexual desire" in one person may do nothing for another..

How does one determine "intent"? if it arouses you does that imply "intent" on the part of the artist?

Mind you, i am not defending real "porn" or abuse of the same, but.. i sense that some people are too eager to broad brush specific issues.. either due to personal agendas or an unwillingness to march out of step..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

I was going to write my own witty story, but then why bother. let's cut through the chase and save myself some time. NO, I don't know what contemplate taoism is. the aspect of it that has been presented, I find it somewhat disagreeable. I don't practice it, so I'll leave it alone. but, if you practice it, you might want to think over these following points over.

1. Chinese instruction method has follow the master apprentice model for millenia.
2. Chinese sages hold the belief that it is better to have knowledge to be lost than passed on to people who might abuse it. this belief has been ingrained in many aspect of chinese culture
3. Consequently, some chinese intentionally teach a set of knowledge for the general public and a set of knowledge for inner room students. Look at how CMA had been instructed. Some secrets are not taught by REAL MASTER until the apprentice prove his worth. Fake master pretends to know his deal and keep the students on the hook by preying on this paradiam.
4. The set of knowledge for the general publics are coded in such of way that unless explained properly, the public will not see the hidden meaning. or it can be understand only after one accumulated a great deal of experiences.
5. A chinese sage wrote down a set of teaching for a border guard several millenia ago. His teaching was worded in such a way that THIS border guard can decipher.
6. A English translator living present day who does not have proper training in daoist practice and belief system will not be able to reach the hidden meaning in this teaching. He/she might be an expert in the chinese language, but In fact, he/she will only translate the obvious meaning and might overwrite some of the obvious meaning with his/her own cultural-matrix filter. In the process, the distortion make discovering the the original meaning by reading the english translation completely impossible.

so, if you are reading a text which seem to say certain thing. may be you want to reconsider if you can actually ascertain if this was indeed the original meaning. if it argues certain practices are unncessary, can you ascertain the truth? how do you go about ascertain the truth?

once again, the true dao cannot be spoken. nor can it be written down. each individual interpretation is filtered through his/her own experiences. but if one lack a certain prequisite experiences, then the interpretation might be drastically different. perhaps tainted or perhaps untained. but, the question is, is it the real dao? or what some people would call dao. You should be able to answer these questions yourself.

Now, I take my leave.

[Ray Pina]

It is perfectly natural for a criminal to steal. He is doing what a criminal does at that moment, he is being true to his nature.

A guy who wants to get off and is lubed up in front of his computer is being true to his present nature.

A priest working a mission or bending over a boy may be being true to his nature.

They are all just creatures really, living in this thing we call existance doing what they are doing and than we apply labels, words and positive or negative values to them.

For instance, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. (to quote George Carlin -- got to do it: If a bullfighter fights bulls and a fire fighter fights fire, what does a freedom fighter fight?)

[monkeyfoot]

WanderingMonk - an extremely interesting post. I was always unsure years ago when I read english versions of the dao te ching and english interpretations of what chuang tsu actually meant when writing it. I think like you that most things are down to the own interpretations of the person reading it and each persons different experiences in life will lead them to take things in different directions - kinda like a horoscope and how you can make whats being said personal to yourself and apply it to yourself in your own direction.

anyway enough of talking about the dao because everytime we bring it up it ceases to be the dao.....the whole concept of why a tree is not a tree.

Beh enough of talking about this - Just follow the path that feels right with you.....

[Buddy]

"That would include a lot of commercial TV, eh?"

No, I don't think so. Commercial TV is primarily designed to sell soap. It uses entertainment to do that. Some of that entertainment is tittilating. I don't think it's primary design is arousal.

"What arouses "sexual desire" in one person may do nothing for another.."

Well the same might be said for all things. You mistake whom it is directed to for it's primary function.


"How does one determine "intent"? if it arouses you does that imply "intent" on the part of the artist?"

I'm thinking some guy filming a shag scene in a motel more as craftsman than artist.


"...either due to personal agendas or an unwillingness to march out of step.."


Odd, I was thinking the same thing.

[Zenshiite]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
It is perfectly natural for a criminal to steal. He is doing what a criminal does at that moment, he is being true to his nature.

A guy who wants to get off and is lubed up in front of his computer is being true to his present nature.

A priest working a mission or bending over a boy may be being true to his nature.

They are all just creatures really, living in this thing we call existance doing what they are doing and than we apply labels, words and positive or negative values to them.

For instance, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. (to quote George Carlin -- got to do it: If a bullfighter fights bulls and a fire fighter fights fire, what does a freedom fighter fight?)

That's a bit overly permissive don't you think?

This sort of hedonistic justification for anything anyone does as "natural" is bogus.

If i take a screwdriver and jam it into a light socket the result is destructive. Sure you could call it "natural" because i just happened to get this wacky whim to do so... but that begs the question... if i were One with Tao... would i have been stupid enough to do that? The answer is "no."

Pack it up and call it quits kids, this is going no where.

Peace,
Dawud

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

How odd, indeed.. People describing Tao with structure and and intent.. some even dismissing the whole subject due to their point of view being challenged (ie: "Pack it up and call it quits kids, this is going no where.").. others that lean toward ritual or religious Taoism (ie: 1. Chinese instruction method has follow the master apprentice model for millenia.).. when authentic stories of Taoist sages usually represent them as loners and a bit outside the "norm"..

As i understand it,Taoism is a study in the natural rythyms and cycles that govern this existence.. it is a desire to align one's actions so as not to disrupt the natural order of things.. and, for me, it closely follows the Wiccan creed: do what you will but, do no harm.. Sure, harm is subjective but, too often, that subjective definition is imposed on others by third parties that suffer no harm and are asserting their personal beliefs/agendas..



If i take a screwdriver and jam it into a light socket the result is destructive. Sure you could call it "natural" because i just happened to get this wacky whim to do so... but that begs the question... if i were One with Tao... would i have been stupid enough to do that? The answer is "no." Actually, it is perfectly in accord with Tao.. it is simply your perspective that deviates.. if a lesson is learned regarding "do no harm" (to self or others).. the Tao has moved ever so slightly closer to balance.. Now, repetitive screwdriver/socket encounters may reveal certain harmful behavior tendencies that add to the imbalance.. this sort of behavior, although perfectly aligned with Tao, will ultimately cause harm and suffer consequences that will hopefully modify the harmful behavior.. And, it seems a critical error in assumption is made with the following Quote: "if i were One with Tao... would i have been stupid enough to do that? The answer is "no." .. there is no assurance that oneness with Tao insures anyone's intellect.. we are always one with Tao, we simply forget it from time to time.. or, fail to remember it..

Be well..

[Zenshiite]

i believe that Lao Tzu spoke of abandoning Tao.

"When the Great Tao was abandoned, there appeared humanity and justice." John C.H. Wu translation of Tao Teh Ching 18

"When the Great Way is deserted, then there is humanitarian duty." Thomas Cleary translation of Tao Teh Ching 18

While it is true we exist within Tao, that does not mean that all actions are harmonious.

Granted extreme yin will always transition into extreme yang... yet these are extremes, Tao and the dynamic interplay of yin and yang is never at extremes. If Tao Itself was ever extremely yin that would throw the entire cosmos out of whack... probably result in the cessation of the cosmos.

Your philosophy is self defeating. You've left not measure for how to interact harmoniously with other people. You speak of the wiccan creed "do what you want, but do no harm" yet you fail to recognize what this entails in its entirety. "Do what you want." Sure, fine. "But do no harm." This is the tricky part. There is nothing to quantify "harm." Is it do no harm period? As in, do no harm to others to your environment or yourself. Or is it do no harm to others? In other words, you can harm yourself but as long as you're not hurting other people and/or animals it's all good.

Which will bring us back around to the whole pornography topic again... the porn industry is full of harm. The exploitation of women for lust causes great harm to society at large and often this involves actual violence towards the women who are subject to the sexual acts in the pornography. Recall Linda Lovelace. Spreading such material may well mean that you are feeding an addiction to the material, causing mental damage and inhibiting the ability of a man(or woman) to function in a normal sexual situation. There are literally millions of men who cannot have a harmonious sexual encounter because their perception of sexual relationships has been so skewed by the use of pornography. Spreading pornographic material could very well lead to a man acting violently toward his partner if she does not want to perform acts that he's viewed in porn. Propagation of this type of material could also further reduce a young man's inhibition against rape, and studies have shown that this is most definitely a result of porn usage.

Basically what it comes down to is this: it is best to play it save and abstain from pornography than to risk causing harm. We are talking about pornography by the general definition that all of humanity holds... especially "hardcore" pornography. You and i both know what that is. Softcore porn even has ill effects.

So while Taoism is the study of the natural currents, this does not mean one cannot take moral lessons from this study. It also does not mean that one cannot find objective moral lessons from said study. If you are incapable of finding objective morality in the natural currents does that mean you're deficient in your perception of natural currents, or does that mean that the one who does find objective morality in the natural currents is imposing his personal view on the natural currents?

i am not saying this is getting no where because my view is challenged. It matters not to me whether you buy into my view or not. This is getting no where because you (Bob) and Scott are basically telling everyone that we're wrong and not acclimating our views and lifestyle to Tao simply because our's differ from your's. It would be worthy to not that what is termed "Hsien Taoism" most likely pre-existed Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, as the roots of Hsien are in the shamanic traditions. Check the Tao Teh Ching again though, Lao Tzu does mention accumulation of Chi.

This is from John C.H. Wu's translation:

"In keeping the spirit and the vital soul together, are you able to maintain their perfect harmony? In gathering your vital energy to attain suppleness, have you reached that state of a newborn babe? In washing and clearing your inner vision, have you purified it of all dross?" Tao Teh Ching 10

Thomas Cleary's translation:

"Carrying vitality and consciousness, embracing them as one, can you keep them from parting? Concentrating energy, making it supple, can you be like an infant? Purifying hidden perception, can you make it flawless?"

Lao Tzu spoke endlessly of administering just law in accord with the Way of Heaven. Read the Wen Tzu. Bear in mind, Tao Teh Ching was a tome on how to govern in accord with Tao. While you're at it i suggest checking out the Huainan Zi, Cleary titles it in english "The Book of Leadership and Strategy: Lessons of the Chinese Masters." Endlessly helpful in understanding the Sages' views on justice and morality.

Peace,
Dawud

[WanderingMonk]

others that lean toward ritual or religious Taoism (ie: 1. Chinese instruction method has follow the master apprentice model for millenia.).. when authentic stories of Taoist sages usually represent them as loners and a bit outside the "norm"..

TaichiBob,

chinese sages like any other sages from other cultures start more or less like anyone else. they were born. they have their talented. some more than other. but, unlike normal people, they make a shift in their lives. they go on the paths to seek spiritual enligthenment. they trains deligently for a long time. suffers many hardships. some dies, some succeed and reach enlightenment.

What do they do after "realization of the truth"?

It is said that sages has three options upon reaching the ultimate realization.
1. become a hermit (hide)
2. pretend to be crazy (distract)
3. go to heaven (die)

why?

In both zhuang zi and lie zi's writing, they speaks to this. zhuang zi was asked to become an official in the Chu State, he replied to the envoy, there is a thousand year old turtle shell in your court. It is used for divination. if given a choice, do you think the turtle would rather crawl in the mud or being honored in your court?

Lie zi when recognized by commoners on the street, he realized he was not concealing his skills and it was time to hide.

why do they have such reaction, there are several reaons, but the easiest one to put on paper is that people want thing from them: please help me do this. please help me with that; it can even be dangerous for the sage: do this for me or else! threats, bribes, exploitation, etc. In a way, these sages have treasure, and your average joe want to use this treasure for their own gain. Of course, everyone has this treasure, the sage just spend more time to refine their and so it sparkle. while the average joe didn't do anything with his, so it look dull and seem worthless.

So, in some way, these sages are not your "norm", but in other ways, they are "norm". they guard their teachings. so, some hide and becomes hermit, some pretend to be crazy, and some decide to go to heaven early.

A western Sage, christ had a similar problem. He chose to display his ability. so, multitude from surrounding areas came to ask for his help. He chose to use his ability to help other and gain converts to spread his messages. Soon, the Roman viceroy and local king became aware of his growing influence and saw him as a threat. so, they acted against him (which cause him to goto heaven early).

Now, by displaying his abilities, Christ gathered many followers. but, the question is did he pass on all of his wisdom? He had only three years. did he chose to spread his message far and wide but sacrifice in the depth?

these are the type of decisions sages face. so before you judge whether they are your "norm" or "far from norms", you might want to consider these carefully.

about leaning toward the religious side, have you ever ordered beijing ducks? do you know there are four ways to eat it? If you are not eating it in all four ways, you are missing out on the experience. if one only practice taoism in partial form, one might be missing out on the core message.


E-fist,

applying labels to people who are incline to do destructive thing will not necessary stop them. they might still act upon their destructive nature.

the issue here is to clearly define what taoism truly is. A study of universial truth through examination of "natural currents". many people who have casual contact with taoism develop some conception or misconception of it. they take from it what appeal to them the most and ignore some of the important daoist principles which fully elaborate on these principle which appealed to them.

especially when deaing with a western audience who are grown up in a western tradition and did not have contact with taoist tradition in their daily lives, they often focus in some apsect of tao. They spread their understanding to other and only focusing in on these aspects such as "follows what is natural".

They don't just spread this understanding, they use it as a justification for their actions. A justification to do what they want to do and ignore certain universal moral codes. It is my hope that this discussion causes people to re-examine their view on tao.

if one says, do what is natural? does that mean do what is natural to you? does that mean do what's natural to the world? or does that mean what's natural to the universe?

we are but an insignifcant aspect of a grand play that's ongoing. although one might see war, famine, etc. it is only occuring on earth. It is only a tiny dust when compare to the solar system, the galaxy, and the universe.

despite the localize disruption, is there a grand stable equilibrium that's all encompassing but we are not yet ready to understand? what is tao? why can't it be spoken? are we missing the point by only examining only a small portion of the tao? remember, there are four ways to eat beijing duck, if you are not eating it in all these ways, you are getting an incomplete meal.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

holy crap i didnt know this actually got responses.

i have some reading and posting to do. ill try and do it tonight.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...


about leaning toward the religious side, have you ever ordered beijing ducks? do you know there are four ways to eat it? If you are not eating it in all four ways, you are missing out on the experience. if one only practice taoism in partial form, one might be missing out on the core message.
This illustrates my main point.. who decided there are only four ways to eat Bejing Duck? it is the blind acceptance of dogma and authority that challenges the "core message".. the rituals may point one in an appropriate direction, but too often the rituals exclude other equally valid experiences.. what i suggest is that people evaluate messages and authorities with an open mind..


The exploitation of women for lust causes great harm to society at large and often this involves actual violence towards the women who are subject to the sexual acts in the pornography.
While this may be true in some instances, it is equally untrue in others.. there are women that actually enjoy this form of erotica, enjoy making money by fulfilling some desire/need for a particular segment of society.. while i agree that whenever harm is manifest in the situation it is not in anyone's best interest and should be controlled.. i must also balance my perceptions with the understanding that other situations can achieve some level of harmony.. i simply fail to understand how people structure their thought processes with only one side of a situation represented..


i am not saying this is getting no where because my view is challenged. It matters not to me whether you buy into my view or not. This is getting no where because you (Bob) and Scott are basically telling everyone that we're wrong and not acclimating our views and lifestyle to Tao simply because our's differ from your's.
I assert that no one is right or wrong (no spin needed).. that each situation differs according to the players.. that while there is a social morallity conducive to social harmony, its place is in the affairs of the social mechanizations.. that in the private settings of consenting adults social control is not necessary.. and i find it distressing whenever society and its representatives feel compelled to govern individuals freedoms when "no harm" can be demonstrated beyond contrary ideologies..


Your philosophy is self defeating. You've left not measure for how to interact harmoniously with other people. You speak of the wiccan creed "do what you want, but do no harm" yet you fail to recognize what this entails in its entirety. "Do what you want." Sure, fine. "But do no harm." This is the tricky part. There is nothing to quantify "harm." Is it do no harm period? As in, do no harm to others to your environment or yourself. Or is it do no harm to others? In other words, you can harm yourself but as long as you're not hurting other people and/or animals it's all good.
First, it's not "my" philosophy.. it's one i favor.. then, the proclamation of "self defeating" does not make it so, it merely expresses someone's particular perspective.. I sense that at some level we are all One thing behaving in many ways, so.. to hurt self is to hurt others and vice versa.. so simply do no harm.. honor social conventions of harmony and honor individual freedom.. and understand the difference..

Statements of absolute assertions neglect the cosmic prime directive.. the only constant in the universe is change..

Be well..

[Zenshiite]

While this may be true in some instances, it is equally untrue in others.. there are women that actually enjoy this form of erotica, enjoy making money by fulfilling some desire/need for a particular segment of society.. while i agree that whenever harm is manifest in the situation it is not in anyone's best interest and should be controlled.. i must also balance my perceptions with the understanding that other situations can achieve some level of harmony.. i simply fail to understand how people structure their thought processes with only one side of a situation represented..

Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend. In any case, even though some women involved in the production of pornography(and i'll agree that this is the case with most today) enjoy it... there is still the harm that the material itself is causing within the psyches of the viewers. Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.

So while you think i'm only taking into account one side, i'm examining ALL sides. Very few people can come away from pornography without a fundamental psychological change. Especially if they are regular views of such material.


hat no one is right or wrong (no spin needed).. that each situation differs according to the players.. that while there is a social morallity conducive to social harmony, its place is in the affairs of the social mechanizations.. that in the private settings of consenting adults social control is not necessary.. and i find it distressing whenever society and its representatives feel compelled to govern individuals freedoms when "no harm" can be demonstrated beyond contrary ideologies..

i am in no way advocating society and its representatives stepping into someone's home and telling them what to do. That is on them and the filth they accumulate in their own souls, not my business. However, that does not change that fact that most people manifest the results of their private habits into a social setting. Thus you have pornography readily available on the web... many websites not requiring age verification and using themes from children's entertainment. There's "Harry Potter" websites, there used to be a website with a White House theme. i won't even get into sexual habits other than pornography right now.

Thus, i am recommending a change in habit for the health of one's mind body and soul. If you choose to ignore it, fine. However, that does not change the fact that i am speaking to real risks to one's overall health. The psychological effects of porn-viewing are inseperable from one's social perspective, however. Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything.

Peace,
Dawud

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend. In any case, even though some women involved in the production of pornography(and i'll agree that this is the case with most today) enjoy it... there is still the harm that the material itself is causing within the psyches of the viewers. Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.

"Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend".. this is a blanket statement that is signature of extremism.. Exhibitionism has many many aspects, one of which can be called "porn", and.. even then, that statement neglects to account for many situations that can be contrary to the assertion.. "Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.".. no, i am simply examining many facts, addressing them as well as i can (see previous posts where i agree that there is some harm and should be controlled).. Adversely, you assert baseless remarks regarding stubborness and ignoring of "fact".. on the otherhand, i am allowing for several conditions to exist in harmony, those that can (and do) have a healthy psyche and are capable of viewing sensual material without fundamental damage (allowing for the broad fundamental definition of "porn").. and, allowing that there is obviously some "porn" that is simply offensive to human nature, degrading to participants at any level, and with no redeeming social value.. to which i say eliminate that stuff and make it so prohibitively punitive as to eliminate the majority of its potential (we will never completely control human nature, no matter how deviant)..


Thus, i am recommending a change in habit for the health of one's mind body and soul. If you choose to ignore it, fine. However, that does not change the fact that i am speaking to real risks to one's overall health. The psychological effects of porn-viewing are inseperable from one's social perspective, however. Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything.

First, you needn't recommend a "change in habit" for me.. i have no interest in "porn".. it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn" (ie: "Thus you have pornography readily available on the web... many websites not requiring age verification and using themes from children's entertainment. There's "Harry Potter" websites, there used to be a website with a White House theme.").. Oh, and i take great care of the many aspects of my health.. Second you toss around the word "fact" as if you are its sole proprietor, i will determine my own set of conditions and standards for truth, thanks.. "Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything." i don't endlessly justify anything, i offer alternative perspectives.. my interest isn't "porn", its enticing people to engage in open-minded dialogue.. and, frankly, if i wanted a sermon there's plenty of that elsewhere.. "endless justification for just about anything.".. Now, there's a standard political tactic, if you say i said it, then others might believe it came from me.. it did not, it is your own perspective used in an attempt to negatively prejudice a message that doesn't support your fundamental views..

As i have stated, i delight in open-minded intelligent dialogue.. i welcome alternative perspectives.. but, i am not amused by people that twist and misrepresent that which i have posted.. To be clear, my reasoning in posting on this thread was to challenge fixed and stagnant notions of the definition of "porn", to entice people to examine other perspectives.. as it evolved, the thread took on certain fundamentalist characteristics, and i hoped to open up dialogue that might illustrate the possibilities of moving toward a "middle ground", where common sense supercedes dogma.. (we may get there, yet).. BUT, in no way do i advocate hardcore "porn", destructive imagery or behavior, or that which can be easily identified as "filth".. and, it would be irresponsible to suggest that i do.. So, in closing, open-minded dialogue is welcome and can be productive.. but, sermonizing, soap-boxing, and dogmatic regurgatations diminish whatever value may be intrinsic to one's "core message"..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings...


This illustrates my main point.. who decided there are only four ways to eat Bejing Duck? it is the blind acceptance of dogma and authority that challenges the "core message".. the rituals may point one in an appropriate direction, but too often the rituals exclude other equally valid experiences.. what i suggest is that people evaluate messages and authorities with an open mind..


No, if you eat beijing ducks, you will find there are four major ways to eat it. You can find a different way, but it actually still falls in the four major ways.

It is not about ritual, it is about the core message. If you engage all aspect of the study, you will get a complete picture. It is about eating beijing duck in all of four ways and not just one way.

I'll use the good old elephant story.

three blind men try to determine what an elephant looks like.

each grab onto a part of the elephant. One man grab on to the leg. one man grab on to the tusk, one man grab on to its tail.

their observations were different. their conception of the elephant were different. all three was only paritally correct. if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture. If they held onto their view, their conception are all wrong. but, if one blind man were to go and touch all aspect of the elephant, then he will get a complete picture.

Just because there is a lean, it doesn't mean it rejects other information. Just because a person has a lean doesn't make his view invalid. The debate is over the core message. It is objecting to a presentation which seem missed the core message.

Even if there's no lean, it doesn't insure the person realize the core message. so, the lean is irrelevant, it is whether the person realize the core message.

It is about balance. It is about seeking the truth.

You are free to challenge my views of the core message. but, until you define what you think is the core message and outline it. It is a bit difficult to discuss. so far, I gather that: do what is natural but do no harm. Is this your view?

since we are talking about open mind.

what do you view as porn? what do you think is porn's damage to society? do you think it is a problem? do you think there's harm?

How do you think people should deal with it?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

WanderingMonk: It's not so much that i "object" to the presentation.. i just find that an invitation to consider other perspectives less offensive than poor characterizations of those with differing views.. as you said:

their observations were different. their conception of the elephant were different. all three was only paritally correct. if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture. If they held onto their view, their conception are all wrong. but, if one blind man were to go and touch all aspect of the elephant, then he will get a complete picture.
So, "if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture." I hope to exchange views, since it is unlikely that few if any of us will have the opportunity to have a "complete" Taoist experience. Oh, and just like "porn", there are certain parts of the elephant i simply don't need to touch ;) .. but, i need to touch as much as possible to get the most complete picture.. or, exchange views with "consenting adults".. :)

Be well..

[Buddy]

"it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn"

What a stupid and childish cheap shot Bobby. It is the sort of passive/aggresive response that I suspected would crawl its way out of you at some point.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy: Really? after the persecution of others i have witnessed by you and others.. you find that to be noteworthy? (oh, and it was conceived as an illustration of just how easily things can be mistaken, like "intention").. if the communication was intended for someone else, Zenshiite, and you find it necessary to enter and add your own inflamatory remarks into conversations that, while possibly a little edgy, are moving toward a "middle-ground".. where does that put you, Buddy? antagonistic? aggressive? or, simply a cheap shot of your own? Perhaps, if you let the dialogue continue between those parties actually engaged, you might witness all sides moving toward an understanding.. and, i have no quarrel with you, Buddy.. i hope we keep it that way..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

WanderingMonk: It's not so much that i "object" to the presentation.. i just find that an invitation to consider other perspectives less offensive than poor characterizations of those with differing views.. as you said:

So, "if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture." I hope to exchange views, since it is unlikely that few if any of us will have the opportunity to have a "complete" Taoist experience. Oh, and just like "porn", there are certain parts of the elephant i simply don't need to touch ;) .. but, i need to touch as much as possible to get the most complete picture.. or, exchange views with "consenting adults".. :)

Be well..

you haven't answer my questions.


what do you view as porn? what do you think is porn's damage to society? do you think it is a problem? do you think there's harm?

How do you think people should deal with it?

if you don't tell us what your views are, how can there be a exchange of views?

[Zenshiite]

it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn"

Cheap shot Bob, just as Buddy said.

This information is on the news from time to time. i hear it, i cite it.

Nice attempt to assassinate my character, though.


"Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend".. this is a blanket statement that is signature of extremism.. Exhibitionism has many many aspects, one of which can be called "porn",

This is pretty silly, as Taoist sages have always been against exhibitionism. Showing off is contrary to modesty and humility. Sexual exhibitionism is probably one of the worst cases of exhibitionism.

Peace,
Dawud

[Buddy]

"you find that to be noteworthy? (oh, and it was conceived as an illustration of just how easily things can be mistaken, like "intention").. if the communication was intended for someone else, Zenshiite, and you find it necessary to enter and add your own inflamatory remarks into conversations that, while possibly a little edgy, are moving toward a "middle-ground".. where does that put you, Buddy? antagonistic? aggressive? or, simply a cheap shot of your own? "

Bull**** Bob. You thought you could get away with intimating that Zs took a particular interest in porn. Am I antagonistic and aggressive? Sure, I'm a martial artist. But I am honest and forthright about these possible shortcomings. You hide behind the veneer of "open mindnessness". Look at the last two responses, does that look like moving toward middle ground? I don't have a problem with honest and open aggression, but I despise this passive aggressive crap.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If it is perceived as a cheap shot, i humbly apologize.. <bows respectfully>

Exhibitionism takes many forms, my point is that certain aspects of exhibitionism are healthy.. "porn" is not one of the healthy aspects..

Porn, my personal perspective: graphic depiction of sex acts, close-up views of sex acts without any redeeming dialogue or any attempt at artful expression.. texts that describe sex acts in a manner that degrades the inherent natural beauty of the subject.. text or scenes that imply violence is an acceptable aspect of making love..

Damage to society: Porn desensitizes people to the profound beauty and deep spiritual connection of one of natures greatest gifts.. it feeds an industry of undesirable characters that bend and abuse the system to their benefit and the detriment of others.. it can in some instances lead to violence and unrealistic expectations from women (and men), but.. it may also keep potential harm to the public within a certain "consenting" group.. it creates a false notion of general human relationships..

Yes, i believe there is harm from "porn" as i hve described it..

How should people deal with it? First, it should be regulated and taxed heavily, making it prohibitively expensive.. use the revenues to treat the sicknesses it fosters.. we know we can't eliminate it, so use it to deal with its own problems.. People should register as "porn" dealers, even to purchase it, this would create a database for likely suspects for local sex-crimes, etc.., it may even deter some folks..

Zenshiite: Again i apologize, i was only attempting to illustrate how easily unintended interpretations of simple statements can be conceived.. much the same as artful and well-produced depictions of sensuality can be cited as "porn".. We live in a society where certain fundamentalists will describe purely normal behavior as "porn" because it doesn't meet their standards or the standards of their faith..


Sexual exhibitionism is probably one of the worst cases of exhibitionism. There's an arguement for that perspective, but a greater arguement for "macho" exhibitionism.. one where sex, war and domination are tools of self-identity.. you know the type that excuses unacceptable behavior as "a guy thing", etc...

All that being said, my point is that there is a place for artful and delicate public expressions of sensuality, it is not "porn".. it is a communication of respect and reverence for a basic human trait that deserves to expressed with a healthy openess.. treat it that way instead of lumping into a category that demonizes it and treats it like it is something dirty.. i believe it is the repressive attitudes that view all sensuality as "dirty" or "filth" or "porn" that help promote the concept of "porn"..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy:
Am I antagonistic and aggressive? Sure, I'm a martial artist.
There, now.. this is exactly the problem.. you assume that a martial artist must be antagonistic and aggressive.. those types of people tend to incite conflict so they can demonstrate how "martial" they are.. that is the BS.. a decent MAist shows his training when it's needed, not in some quest for recognition.. and, to assume agression and antagonism is needed in a forum such as this is a fundamental misunderstanding of communication.. "passive-aggressive"? i am not familiar with your meaning as it applys to this issue.. if it is your intent to incite aggressive dialogue with me, peddle that load of crap elsewhere, i don't intend to be intimidated by you or anyone else.. so, you "despise this passive aggressive crap", thanks for sharing your phobias, but i'm really not interested in your personal issues.. We approach life differently, you and i.. suppose we just leave it at that.. it will serve us both well.

Be well..

[Buddy]

"There, now.. this is exactly the problem.. you assume that a martial artist must be antagonistic and aggressive.."

There you go again. No I don't. I was speaking about myself, not some hypothetical other.

"those types of people tend to incite conflict so they can demonstrate how "martial" they are.. "

Those "types"? Isn't that painting with a broad brush. Isn't everyone an individual who may or may act a certain way under varying cicumstances?

"a decent MAist shows his training when it's needed, not in some quest for recognition.."

By whose standard? Who gets to determine need? You?

""passive-aggressive"? i am not familiar with your meaning as it applys to this issue.. if it is your intent to incite aggressive dialogue with me, peddle that load of crap elsewhere, i don't intend to be intimidated by you or anyone else.. "

It is my intent to call you on it when you take this superior tone and then attack another under the guise of debate.

"If it is perceived as a cheap shot, i humbly apologize.. <bows respectfully>"

It was perceived as such because it WAS a cheap shot. And rather than sincerely apologize, you make it still the responsablity of the perceiver. THAT is passive/aggressive.

"so, you "despise this passive aggressive crap", thanks for sharing your phobias, but i'm really not interested in your personal issues.."

Bob you seem like a reasonably smart guy. But you persist in ignoring the meaning of words. Phobia means fear. I assure you I have no fear of your passive/aggressiveness. I've seen it before and just want to recognize it.

"We approach life differently, you and i.. suppose we just leave it at that.. it will serve us both well."

You have no idea how I approach life, nor I you. You only know how I approach you on this forum. You could have kept out of my issue with BL and Eggo but chose to add your smug and condescending tone to it. Reap what you sow.

[Zenshiite]

Bob...

You are speaking on what is academically called "erotica" and cited as such by sexologists as being socially acceptable.

Because of my religious interests i would then ask why erotica must be displayed publicly or even produced with actual people.

We are, however, speaking about pornography in the same way. Though i might paint it a tad broader by saying that any material using nudity to encourage promisciuity to be included. Playboy(the very title of the publication defines what it encourages) would be included in my consideration of pornography.

An ancient Taoist sexual alchemy book including illustrations of various positions, or even such a book today produced by any number of authors writing about the topic, i have absolutely not problem with.

The thing is, you and i both know that from the get-go GDA was (most likely)talking about his collection of sexually explicit material depicting graphic sex acts and close ups of penetration. Basically, you've been playing devil's advocate for something even you think is bad.

Peace,
Dawud

PS. Apology accepted.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ok first im going to reply to some of the things that relate to me directly as otherwise i'll be thinking of them while posting about other things.

i hear what the people way back on page one were coming from with the getting older thing, but i dont think that's it. im not insulted by the notion in the least, as i certainly do have a lot of growing up to do, but i don't think that's part of what's been happening. i have had an interesting life and in some areas i grew up way to quick and in others ill probably never grow up at all, but either way im well familiar with it and im not sure if it factors in here. i could be wrong too.

i also heard a lot of talk about porn losing value as i sorted through what was important in my life. this has some truth to it i'm sure, but it wasn't really something i decided to do either. i certainly didn't sit down and start deleting porn in some weird moral masturbation thats for sure. but as i did sit down to it i simply found myself sifting the true goodness from the hordes of mpegs which i was just kinda afraid to delete. i did this until i turned a 12gig folder into a 4 gig folder (still plenty for ya vash). dropping a third of something in a short period of time might make it sound less important, and thats what i thought at first, but the weird thing is that as i find myself left with the best of my collection i tend to actually appreciate it more. i want to say that i have learned to truly enjoy my porn by learning to let it go, but that sounds too much like im quoting a taoist cliche straight from a hippy book and quoting a taoist hippy on the subject of appreciating your porn is a little ****ed up.

i think most of you had already sorted those issues out to the extent of your attention span already, but i just wanted to get those things off my chest before moving on.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... and on the subject of attention spans i only made it to page 3 before posting.



Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht


on death metal....

I been working on getting rid of all my negative thoughts. Trying to find the source of all my thinking towards people.

...... It took me awhile to figure it out but the wrong type of music can be counter productive to that. I used to say that it never affected me.

.....Everyone realizes that music affects them emotionally but i dont think they know how far it goes. .... If you listen to hateful things all day then thats gonna affect your thoughts no matter how much you dont realize it.

i know this has been talked about already too, but i just wanted to say that i felt that this was kinda treating the fevers for the cancer.

i know where your coming from mind you. after tripping about a half a step towards the path that might eventually lead me to the right path , i have found myself listening to more classical music as i simply forgot how much i like it. i made a thread a little while ago asking for suggestions on the main board and i downloaded a bunch of these songs (many contributed by an awesome forum member), put them in my play list, and made a disk to listen to on the way to work. so i guess i have sort of been doing the same thing and i am all about the classical, but it certainly isn't going to replace death metal. i go straight from motzart to morbid angel on the regular.

i think that death metal should make you feel aggressive. it's kinda what it was designed to do. i dont think there is anything inherently wrong with this as long as the aggression gets turns off with the car or computer. it has it's place too. i think its nice to get all pumped up to some deicide or something else completely bad ass while hitting the weights or the bag. at this point it actually serves it's purpose for me by reminding me what hitting the weights and the bag feels like.

i think the problem lies more in one's ability to act or not act on their impulses, more than the fact that certain stimuli may or may not lead to such impulses. you mentioned thoughts and i think this is true for thoughts as well. feeling a surge of aggression while listening to some wholesome carcass isn't a bad thing. suddenly beating the **** out of someone in your head because of said surge is debatable in its "badness," but it was certainly a process that doesn't always have to happen. i think the process itself can eventually be overcome. in my book, which is quite long at this point, overcoming the process is much better than cutting out the stimuli. then again i'm probably just talking out my ass.

i really do think it comes down to impulses more than stimuli and i think that scott dude already addressed it in a way that i can't. i mean i can nodd and agree, but some i think some of it is a little beyond where im at. hopefully where im heading. that scott dude is one smart mother ****er. unless of course he's just taking out of his ass too.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i just re-read my post and yeah im talking out my ass.

ill blame it on being tired rather than ignorant. ill blame the fact it's not deleted on my feeling that everything we are talking about is a process ... one that i am just starting ... vs not wanting to see something i just put 10 minutes or more into go completely to waste.

[WanderingMonk]

Here's a discussion on the value of celibacy. I think it is consistent with the traditional daoist view on these issue. for those who thought it was dubious, you should evaluate these info and investigate these issues further.

http://www.ashram.org/satsang_eng/eternal_youth/page6.html

Modern medical opinion
Eminent European Medical experts also support the statements of the Yogis of India. Dr. Nicole says, "It is a medical and physiological fact that the best blood in the body goes to form the elements of reproduction in both the sexes. In a pure and orderly life, this matter is reabsorbed. It goes back into circulation ready to form the finest brain, nerve and muscular tissues. This vital fluid of man carried back and diffused through his system makes him manly, strong, brave and heroic. If wasted, it leaves him effeminate, weak and physically debilitated and prone to sexual irritation and disordered function, a wretched nervous system, epilepsy and various other diseases and death. The suspension of the use of the generative organs is attained with a notable increase of bodily, mental and spiritual vigour."

If the spermatic secretion in man is continuous, it must either be expelled or be reabsorbed. As a result of the most patient and preserving scientific investigations, it has been found that whenever the seminal secretions are conserved and thereby reabsorbed into the system, it goes towards enriching the blood and strengthening the brain.

Dr. Dio Louis thinks that the conservation of this element is essential to strength of body, vigour of mind and keenness of intellect. Another writer Dr. E.P. Miller says : "All waste of spermatic secretions, whether voluntary or involuntary, is a direct waste of the life-force. It is almost universally conceded that the choicest element of the blood enters into the composition of the spermatic secretions. If these conclusions are correct, then it follows that celibacy in life is essential to man's ultimate well- being."

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i will say this about the suspension of semen.

it's almost worth it for the nocturnal emissions. noctorunal emissions rock. i havent been lucky enough to have many, but unless it became a nightly thing i dont think i'd ever complain about having to change my shorts. even then i don't think id complain.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Regarding the retention of Semen.. i think there is a balance, between celibacy and frequency.. First, there are several Taoist/Tantric techniques for recycling semen that permits ejaculation but retains the fluids.. this increases stamina and duration of performance while permitting the full sensation of orgasm (several times if well trained).. Second, it seems contrary to design and function of the human body to be celibate, atrophy sounds like a bad thing in this region of the body.. moderation and appropriate intention seem healthy to me..

Buddy: I sense that we could get along well under less anonymous circumstances.. it would keep the accounting in line..


It was perceived as such because it WAS a cheap shot. And rather than sincerely apologize, you make it still the responsablity of the perceiver. THAT is passive/aggressive. Passive/aggressive by whose standards, yours? and, i make it no one's responsibility.. i only wish to redeem any unintended harm.. one will find whatever they seek, if you seek conflict in a sincere apology you will likely find it.. but, to what end? how does it serve you to pursue this issue? i will admit that my choice of analogies and its presentation was flawed, i have apologized for unintended harm.. what else do you need to curb your aggressive righteousness?


It is my intent to call you on it when you take this superior tone and then attack another under the guise of debate. Okay, you have "called" me on it.. my answer is i have not taken a "superior attitude", that is your own interpretation.. as you say, "You have no idea how I approach life, nor I you".. and, for the record, that was not an "attack", if i "attack" there will be no subtlety, no question, it will be direct and to the point.. that was playful sparring.. under the guise of communication..


You could have kept out of my issue with BL and Eggo but chose to add your smug and condescending tone to it. Reap what you sow. Now, we get to the real issue, revenge.. you got your feelings hurt when someone "called" you on something.. my tone was not smug or condescending, it was factual and far more appropriate than the brutish display by you and your posse.. the personal attacks, the character judgements, the use of juvenile language and the purely hurtful intent implied by your "issue with BL and Eggo".. the voracity of your persecution of harmless trolls was tantamount to internet stalking with an intent more harmful than the ones you persecuted.. it was a public embarrassment, and used up more bandwidth than a Bush cover-up.. But, for the record, i didn't care for the "mixed messages" of BL and Ego, but i believe they have a right to be here.. any rational mind would have discerned the BS without the persecution.. and saved the rest of us pages and pages of useless tripe to have to wade through is search of something useful..

So, now that we have slung some mud at each other.. do you think its possible to move on to more productive issues..

Be well..

[Buddy]

"Passive/aggressive by whose standards, yours? and, i make it no one's responsibility.. i only wish to redeem any unintended harm.. one will find whatever they seek, if you seek conflict in a sincere apology you will likely find it.. but, to what end?"

Bob,
We could look up the definition but I doubt that would satisfy you.
When you say 'any perceived insult' you absolve yourself of responsibility and palce it on the perceiver. To that end I didn't find your apology sincere. But Zen accepted it, and as the slight was slung in his direction, he gets to be the one to decide.

"what else do you need to curb your aggressive righteousness?"

Well, I see no need to curb it. Passive righteousness is the closet of the cowardly. Great and evil deeds were allowed because righteous men refused to speak. I don't mean to be hyperbolic and I don't equate this discussion to such deeds.

"Now, we get to the real issue, revenge.. you got your feelings hurt when someone "called" you on something.. "

Yes revenge. I have no problem with that. But no, my feelings weren't hurt. Your smugness about what you thought should be written and what shouldn't could have been kept to yourself. No one asked for your input but when you decided to add it anyway.
You didn't like my response and here we are.

"my tone was not smug or condescending, it was factual and far more appropriate than the brutish display by you and your posse.."

Both smug and condescending. I believe your comment began with,"Now, children..." If you didn't like my tone or posting style you were free to ignore it.

"the voracity of your persecution of harmless trolls was tantamount to internet stalking with an intent more harmful than the ones you persecuted.."

Persecution? Internet stalking? Please. Why didn't you just call the Politeness Police?

"But, for the record, i didn't care for the "mixed messages" of BL and Ego, but i believe they have a right to be here.. any rational mind would have discerned the BS without the persecution.. and saved the rest of us pages and pages of useless tripe to have to wade through is search of something useful.."

Apparently the mods disagreed with you. And why on earth did you wade through "pages and pages of useless tripe?" For my part just the smell of it puts me off. Perhaps you have a greater tolerence for it. I stop reading quite rapidly.

"it was a public embarrassment, and used up more bandwidth than a Bush cover-up.. "

Well I hope you were embarrassed for me. I certainly wasted no time on it. Maybe I'm just less concerned about the opinions of faceless keyboard jockeys.

"So, now that we have slung some mud at each other.. do you think its possible to move on to more productive issues.. "

Well, all things are possible...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy:


Well, I see no need to curb it. Passive righteousness is the closet of the cowardly. Perhaps, carefully picked battles are more appropriate than a constant confrontational facade.. it is my belief that rather than showing my hand before the battle, the surprise will yield an advantage.. i like to see the skills flash briefly and decisively then vanish.. leaving only the stunned and curious to ponder the next appearance.. but, make no mistake, when action is required i do not hesitate and i give no quarter nor ask..


Yes revenge. I have no problem with that. Okay, here we are.. i hope you can consider the inappropriate intrusion into your affairs vindicated and we can move on.. really..


Both smug and condescending. I believe your comment began with,"Now, children..." If you didn't like my tone or posting style you were free to ignore it. No, that opening was intended to lighten a nasty situation, that is not my normal response to things.. sure, i could just ignore your posts, but.. i actually feared that the level of humiliation directed at BL and Ego might get you banned as well.. considering that you have some decent contributions to these dialogues from time to time i had hoped to de-rail a potential trainwreck.. But, in retrospect, that was a mistake of mine.. i live, i learn..


Persecution? Internet stalking? Please. Why didn't you just call the Politeness Police? I tried.. but, i was informed that i was behind the times.. i was told that society has no need for common decency, respect, or tolerance.. that if i wanted to survive i would have to adapt and measure my worth by the number of victims in my wake.. no, wait.. that was the Bush White House Police.. see, there you have it.. wrong number..


Well, all things are possible... i hope so.. this is "hard work".. no, wait.. "mexed missages".. no, wait.. mixed work.. Crap, just execute somebody so we can have a Bar... oops.. i shouldn't cut and paste from Bush's memoirs.. :D

Be well..

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

interesting twist of things. all my porn is gone now as my hardrive just up and died out of no where.

no clicking, no warning or anything. just got a boot disk error out of no where today .... doesn't even show up in bios as slave in my girlfriends machine so everything that was on it is gone.

yeah im looking into raid now.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by Buddy
Scott,
But GDA's point was his overuse of pornography

no sir. that's all you guys. im just goin along for the ride at this point.

[Zenshiite]

The Universe is trying to tell you something perhaps GDA.

Peace,
Dawud

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i think that the universe is telling me that page 6 of this thread has absolutely nothing to do with page one, and such is the way of the kung fu forum.

[lightsout]

Why do I feel like GDA is the most taoist person on this thread? LOL