Mandatory participation in forms competition

[Oso]

So, I was looking to take some of my students to a tournament in Charlotte and while looking over the rules it states that competitors who want to do continuous sparring MUST also compete in empty hand forms.

Anyone else seen this? I emailed the promoter back asking why.

They have a Novice division of 0-6 months and I've got two people who want to spar but certainly don't have a competition level form to show yet.

[CaptinPickAxe]

thats crap.
I think that if you don't want to dance around in silky pajamas and want to beat someone up, you should be able to. Go put a hurtin' on 'em, Oso.

[Icewater]

Interesting. My guess is that enrollment in the forms competition in down? Or too many people are enrolling in the sparring and they are trying to dissuade people? Let us know what happens!

[Oso]

I think so too but was very politic in my request for a reason. It is an all kung fu tourney so I was surprised to find that stipulation.

The first 6 months or so of our training only has a short little set called Xiao Si Shou which just isn't long enough to use as a comp set.

[MasterKiller]

They are probably trying to keep non-traditional people from entering. Sometimes, non-traditional fighters feel it's their god-given duty to show up and prove they are superior to everyone else, which isn't conducive to a tournament's goals of promoting the complete art.

[CaptinPickAxe]

MK, brought up a very good point.

Also, are they charging for entering both? If so, they may be trying to make a little more bank.

[Brad]

They have a Novice division of 0-6 months and I've got two people who want to spar but certainly don't have a competition level form to show yet.
Just give them an easy form to do(like 5 stances form) that won't take a whole lot of energy. If they're only interested in sparring, then it doesn't matter what the judges think of their form work. Is it a kungfu only tournement? The only time I've heard of this rule before was a hung gar tournement where they wanted to make sure the competiters were actual kungfu people and not just people who specialize in that particular sparring to win. Do the people competing in empty hand forms have to spar? It would make more sense if it had to go both ways.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
They are probably trying to keep non-traditional people from entering. Sometimes, non-traditional fighters feel it's their god-given duty to show up and prove they are superior to everyone else, which isn't conducive to a tournament's goals of promoting the complete art.


hmmm. i see lots of people go to tournaments then jsut leave after sparring.

[Oso]

MK, that's a good point I hadn't thought of. Like I said, I was politic when I asked.

We just don't start a full, multi road form till right at 6 months.

I'm gonna see what I can do to get it waived. We went to a comp by these same folks earlier this year and did forms and sparring. Hopefully they will consider letting us just spar.

[Oso]

http://hgkfa.tripod.com/2004FallTournRulesNRegs.doc

There's the rules page.

FTR, I'm not trying to bash these guys. Just want my students to be able to compete in what they want to.



Brad, that's a good point. They could just do Little Four Hands. It's short but kinda snappy if played correctly. My experience has just been that the form needs to be long to be considered for place.

Coincidentally enough, it is sponsered by a hung gar school.


Do the people competing in empty hand forms have to spar? It would make more sense if it had to go both ways.

And that's a great point....but we all know way to many people don't want to spar, even just continuous light contact.

[GLW]

Let's go back about 20 years...

At that time, there were NO Chinese Martial Art ONLY events.

Still to this day, if you go to so called OPEN tournaments, and do form, you get stuck in a SOFT style division. Gee...I didn't know that Hung Gar was soft...

Anyway, to make the event truly a CMA only event, the early ones had the requirement of a mandatory form competition to fight. (there WERE people from non related styles showing up in Karate Gis wanting to simply spar....and that was NOT the point of the event in the first place).

As things grew a bit, there were a couple of CMA teachers that had their big dogs and NEVER trained them in anything but simply did sparring with them. While that is fine for Sanshou or other full contact venues, it put a damper on the light contact sparring. Those guys tended to have little or no cotnrol...so if you were fighting in light contact, sure, you would win your bout on the other guy getting disqualified...while you followed the rules...but you would not be able to continue due to the injury that you got when he got disqualified...

So they used the rule to weed some of those guys out...or make them go into the full contact events anyway.

There was also a bit of reasoning that if you could not do a simple form, you probably were not at a level where you should be fighting yet anyway...

So...there were some good and bad reasons for the rule...

But, if you are attending the event, they are NOT YOUR rules. They are the promoters. If you don't like them, simple...don't pay your money and attend.

If you DO attend, then follow the rules. Read them completely and KNOW them.

Unfortunately, there are not any real standard rules in use anywhere in the US that apply from group to group.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Personally I think it should go the other way too.

If you want to do forms then you should be required to spar.

I commend this tournament for keeping it traditional.

[Oso]

As things grew a bit, there were a couple of CMA teachers that had their big dogs and NEVER trained them in anything but simply did sparring with them. While that is fine for Sanshou or other full contact venues, it put a damper on the light contact sparring.

That situation doesn't really exist in the 0-6 month category though.

My entire point is that I have two people who have been with me for about 2 months and want to spar. They only know basic kicks, punches and beginner's line drills.

I could teach them a short set between now and nov 13 but there is no chance of them winning, ime, because it is too short. So why compete in something w/ no chance of winning?


There was also a bit of reasoning that if you could not do a simple form, you probably were not at a level where you should be fighting yet anyway...

I disagree with this. We start with basic kicks, punches, deflections/blocks and drills with all of these in combination. This will get a student better at fighting far faster than a form will. And 'in style' as well as long as the basics are from the style.



But, if you are attending the event, they are NOT YOUR rules. They are the promoters. If you don't like them, simple...don't pay your money and attend.

Indeed. And I've mostly decided not to attend because they are also not allowing head contact for beginning adults even though headgear is mandatory and no contact to the face for any division even though face cages are mando for teen and adults.

and 'traditional' smaditional. This is why CMA gets such a bad rap.

No real sparring, even in the light contact. Not everyone has to fight full contact but when you don't compete with a full range of targets then you train w/o a full range of targets and that's bad for any self defense usage you might want to get out of your training.

bah....****** CMA really ****es me off sometimes....

[Ming Yue]

I've mostly decided not to attend because they are also not allowing head contact for beginning adults even though headgear is mandatory and no contact to the face for any division even though face cages are mando for teen and adults.



No head contact in any division??? I'm bummed, the ruleset sucks. these are the same folks from the comp in may?

[Oso]

No face contact period.

No head contact for Beginning Adults.

You mean March and yes.

[lkfmdc]

blah blah blah

I always see the same EXCUSES thrown out to "justify" these sorts of rules.... they are just that, excuses :rolleyes:

I've been in meetings in four different organizations where this was discussed. The REAL reasons in meetings like this, with closed doors, is to keep the "non kung fu people" out....

Which of course always begged the question of WHY?

Why keep out the non-traditional, non-kung fu people? What are you afraid of?

If your system is so "deadly" and so effective, why do you care if you have to fight another method?

[Vash]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
If your system is so "deadly" and so effective, why do you care if you have to fight another method?

Thank you, Coach Ross, for pointing this out! As has been said so often by those people posting on this thread, kung fu, and by extension, those martial arts styles which utilize forms/kata/et al, are far too "deadly" for the lei tai. Of course, this is just an EXCUSE to exclude non-forms-performing peeps from the combative event noted which has obscenely suck-ass rules.

Again, thank you!

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Saying that your form is "too deadly" is kind of a lame excuse.

However, I don't think that is really the argument.

The argument is that people feel that what they train for and what is allowed at a tournament are two different things.

In addition to "tae kwon do style" punches and kicks most kung fu styles have joint locking, sweeps, knees, elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes, knee breaks, etc. ad nauseum

Many of the techniques are designed to inflict permanent damage, not simply submission, on your opponent and it is with that intent that they were and are trained.

In tournament fighting most of that traditional arsenal is thrown out the window. You can't use it because it wasn't designed for sport, it was designed for street defense. Different intention.

So what are you left with?

Not much.

Front kick, side kick, roundhouse, jab, hook, straight, uppercut, hip throw, sweep, leg takedown...

You lose the original flavor of kung fu and it becomes kickboxing. It also becomes an athletic contest of who can execute the basic moves more quickly with more power.

But what about the moves that aren't basic? The sublties that are unique to each style? The techs and strategies that lead your opponent to a really nasty outcome.

IMHO, sparring definitely has its place in training, it teaches a lot of good lessons.

However, I think a lot of traditional teachers fear that if they focus too much on sparring as a sport that they're students will lose the original concept of kung fu...which is disable your opponent quickly and efficiently ie with the least energy expended.

The "deadly" or "injurious" techniques can be trained alongside sparring but they have to be trained in more controlled and often more inventive ways.

That is to say....they can't be trained with a "live resisting opponent" unless the intention is to permanently injure that opponent.

Peace.









;)

[GLW]

"I've been in meetings in four different organizations where this was discussed. The REAL reasons in meetings like this, with closed doors, is to keep the "non kung fu people" out...."

YES...that is and always has been one of the main reasons for it being there. In regards to Sanshou - as in a full contact venue, I agree that ANYONE that can pay the fee and pass the physical should be allowed.

In the light contact...

First, the way Orgs like NASKA do sparring is NOT how it is done in continuous light contact for most of the CMA events. There is no Hop Hop Tag - BREAK...point stuff. The way it is SUPPOSED to be done is a break only occurs when a competitor is out of the ring, not responding to the situation, an illegal technique or power is thrown, or there is a clinch...that type of thing.

But even if they were the same...WHY should a CMA sponsored event be all that open to non-CMA folks. If it is labeled as an OPEN event, no big deal. Otherwise, for years it has been a detriment to go to a "Karate" tournament and do anything. You had Taijiquan in the same division with Hung Gar, Long Fist, and even Modern Wushu.... AND Judged by people who didn't even do one of the styles...much less have any knowledge of all of them.

The reality is that if all the promoter wanted to do was get money, they WOULD allow anyone in...more registration fees.

There is NOTHING wrong with a CMA event being a CMA event.

The reasons do NOT have to be "being afraid" but can quite simply be a desire to promote and showcase CMA.

[lkfmdc]

the best layed plans of mice and men go out the F-in window as soon as it's full power, full speed and the adrenaline kicks in

Sorry to be blunt, but the guy who talks about how he can't use those so called "crippling techniques" in the so called "sport" always turns out to be the guy who when a left hook is thrown, he crumples into a pile and slides across the floor...

Needless to say, if you can't even spar, lowly old sparring, how can you hope to use the "deadly" crap? :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Sorry GLW, but requiring forms to fight has NOTHING to do with TCMA....

Not the real stuff as was done in the mainland in the old days any way... US Kung Fu always seems to delude itself into thinking is has found the better way

A few very legit systems have NO FORMS.... fudge on them? :confused:

Quite a few have a very few number of forms.... 1, 2, maybe 3... some only passed on when you are advanced

Let me play devil's advocate, why should I have to "impress" the tournament officials in order to fight? ESPECIALLY when they may not have any F-in idea what they are looking at?

One of the reasons the Lama people stopped doing forms was that the so called "officials" were all Hung Ga people applying their standards to our forms when judging. Our perfectly correct stances seemed "funny" or "wrong" to them....

I've judged long enough to know the sort of BS that can happen, like "famous" masters stickign their students in the wrong divisions and since, cough cough, they are the arbitrators they over ride all 5 juges' objections

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
the best layed plans of mice and men go out the F-in window as soon as it's full power, full speed and the adrenaline kicks in

Sorry to be blunt, but the guy who talks about how he can't use those so called "crippling techniques" in the so called "sport" always turns out to be the guy who when a left hook is thrown, he crumples into a pile and slides across the floor...

Yeah there's some truth in that. But there's all kinds of claims made in MA's both on the "sporting" side and the "street" side. So that kind of negate's your argument.



Needless to say, if you can't even spar, lowly old sparring, how can you hope to use the "deadly" crap? :rolleyes: [/B]

Well, I think that a so called "master" should be able to change up his game from "sport" to "street" and back again. But what about beginners? It seems like they are going to have to focus on either/or until they have enough experience and control to differentiate.

Often they can't. And so when they go to spar and all they've been learning is traditional techniques and the ref goes "you can't use that" they proceed to stand there, not sure what to do and get pounded by someone who's been focusing on the basic "sport" techniques.

Or if they're a little more agressive personality then say f-it and they pound the tar out of the other guy using the traditional stuff ending in bloody noses or worse and a subsequent disqualification.

That has been my experience.

;)

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
Well, I think that a so called "master" should be able to change up his game from "sport" to "street" and back again. But what about beginners? It seems like they are going to have to focus on either/or until they have enough experience and control to differentiate.

Often they can't. And so when they go to spar and all they've been learning is traditional techniques and the ref goes "you can't use that" they proceed to stand there, not sure what to do and get pounded by someone who's been focusing on the basic "sport" techniques.

Or if they're a little more agressive personality then say f-it and they pound the tar out of the other guy using the traditional stuff ending in bloody noses or worse and a subsequent disqualification.


So, if you're a beginner, in a style that takes a long time to develop defensive, 'real world' skills, then why bother competing in a tournament? That's a silly argument. If you're going to compete in a tournament, you'd very well better be able to take whatever contact is permitted in the tournament rules.

And conversely, why bother putting together a sparring portion of a tournament where the rules have been softened down for 'beginners' of styles that take a long time to develop real world defensive skills? What is there, really, to compete in? To distinguish greater skill over another?

Now I like the idea of demoing your fighting style prior to a sparring match. So requiring forms wouldn't be a big deal - as long as sparring were also a requisite. If you're not going to require sparring for forms competition, it's silly to require forms competition for sparring.

[Oso]

Still haven't heard back from the promoters.

Talked with my students tonight and we are going to pass on this. It's the same ruleset we saw in March with the addition of no face contact at all even w/ headgear. My two teens would apparently be forced to spar w/ no head contact at all and I don't want to waste time training for that type of sparring.

And there is still the issue of the mando forms. The more I think about it the more I don't like being forced into that just to spar.

We need some San Shou down here. Or a change in the Lei Tai rules for the type of glove so it would be legal as a tourney in NC.

Maryland is just a long ass haul from here.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
If your system is so "deadly" and so effective, why do you care if you have to fight another method?

You know I HAVE to agree with you, full contact kickboxing is so much more realistic....

.... with padded gloves, mouth guard, head gear, face shield, shin guards, foot guards, cup, chest protector, referees to save your ass on the ground, break clinches and admonish your opponent for throwing an elbow at the bridge of your nose....

Just remember, kickboxing is a simple game, with simple rules, played by simple men.... And thats its attraction. Its as much about real fighting as Kung Fu forms are, just on another end of the spectrum.

The tournament organiser probably just wants to have a little something different than the status quo, where specialists compete in specialised events, and all-rounders struggle to make the grade.

[ShaolinTiger00]

on a funny note, In my first 2 sanshou competitions, I competed in forms as well!

afaik only Jason Yee & Jovon Holmes (a really great guy..) also did this at the time.

simply put, training forms takes time away from fighting. that time should have been better used on conditioning and sparring and I learned quickly and made the decision to drop all form work.

*edit* just remembered that my training partner Scott Westcamp also did this back in the day.

[GLW]

"Sorry GLW, but requiring forms to fight has NOTHING to do with TCMA....

Not the real stuff as was done in the mainland in the old days any way... US Kung Fu always seems to delude itself into thinking is has found the better way"

You are way off in yuur equation...

The idea behind the Chinese Martial Arts ONLY competition was to try to promote ALL of Chinese styles.

There WAS an element of exclusion in there...by design.

It was because those of us creating the events were tired of the one sided rules. We were also tired of the Karate Gi schools that were basically doing a weird form of Karate and ssaying it was Chinese.

So, the rule of having to show SOME level of understanding of at least some traditional Chinese style in forms competition was born.

It WAS to exclude those that merely did Kickboxing or just showed up to spar. AND...it WAS to try to promote the CMA as a whole...the LienYong Kan (Health, Use, Art).

This ALL predated the conception of Sanshou by around 10 years or so.

As for TCMA...not true completely. There WERE competitions where the people in them had to display barehand, weapon, horsemanship, archery, fighting, and wrestling abilities.

While I DO agree that form and fighting are completely different skills, I would also submit that if all you do is fight, you are doing a martial science, a martial sport, or martial discipline...but a martial art by the use of the the word ART implies a bit more than that.

And the ART part was in the minds of those creating the original rules.

Was it necessary...probably not. But THAT WAS their intent at the time.

As for competitions now...

Again, if you don't like the rules, don't go. It is quite simple.

If you find something you like better, do that. LKFMDC, for example found Sanshou to his liking...so power to him, he emphasizes that.

If you have a better idea, put together the rules and do it your way. If it works, people WILL pick up on it.

But to worry about light contact continuous sparring... Well, to be honest, the level of fighting you see in most of those divisions is questionable.

There are rules about contact and force. Then you ALWAYS have competitors that break the rules. They then want to argue about why they should not be disqualified. Then, when you point out that if they want to go all out, the Lei Tai is over yonder...and they can weigh in there and go at it...they mumble a marginal insult and disappear....

[ShaolinTiger00]

We were also tired of the Karate Gi schools that were basically doing a weird form of Karate and ssaying it was Chinese.

So, the rule of having to show SOME level of understanding of at least some traditional Chinese style in forms competition was born.

Does it really matter who wins? Doesn't the better woman/man win? The way you describe it sounds like CMA guys were making up rules to keep from getting beaten up by others. Who cares if he's karate. if he can fight. fight. if he competes in a southern form then he's going to have to do things well to place because the judges know what southern styles look like..

[Eddie]

that’s a problem that we are also experiencing down here with our Kuoshu Federation. Their rules always had it that you have to do forms to qualify for fighting, but I managed to persuade them to change that slightly in the last tournament. You had to be a member of the organisation, which ensures that the fighter is from a kung fu school. It worked well, and there were some good fights.

This is full contact, and I see no reason why you have to do a form to be able to fight. With the Wushu Federation, they allow San Shou fighters to compete, without having to do forms. We train San Shou as a separate event, and often those fighters don’t want to learn forms. We still teach them “traditional” applications (coming from forms) and combos, so whats the difference? Is it not kung fu anymore?

Full contact fighting is full contact fighting. Or rather, fighting is fighting. Not many differences between styles when you enter the ring (or even the street for that matter). At the end, we all revert to basics which we drill in all the time. If you find some good traditional moves which you like and feel effective, drill that in. You might be able to use it when you need them. But I agree whole heartedly with everything lkfmdc says.

With our Kuoshu Federation the fighting is pretty much anything goes. Fighters wear NHB type mitts, and everything is allowed. Knees, elbows and even chin na is encouraged. Heck, they even allow CLF sow choys. There is just no fighting on the floor. Its pretty realistic, given the nature of the match. In all of the fights I have seen so far over the years, we see very little “Traditional” martial arts moves. From the side, it all looks the same. Everyone reverts to shorter, less emphasised moves, and it may look more like kickboxing than anything else.

But Im still asking. Are we meant to fight like our forms, or are we supposed to use our forms and techniques in a skilled manner to beat our opponents. I mean, a sow choy with a boxing glove is still a sow choy, and a backfist is still a back fist. Dynamic change, but the techniques still stay the same.

Finally, I always say, if you have never experienced a solid blow to the head, chances are you will never be able to take it when you do get it. Its not a nice feeling, and I often wonder about people who has no full contact experience.

Eddie

[Ben Gash]

Has everyone missed the point that Oso wants to put guys into a tournament after 2 months?:eek: I'd say that it would really be counter productive to enter them at this stage.
I once had a 10 minute nose bleed in a "no face contact" tournament and it was ruled to be a valid strike :rolleyes:

[Ming Yue]

I disagree. There is a division within the competition for novice, up to 6 months training. Even though we're skipping this one, the beginners in our school will be prepared and will enjoy competition.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Has everyone missed the point that Oso wants to put guys into a tournament after 2 months?:eek: I'd say that it would really be counter productive to enter them at this stage.
I once had a 10 minute nose bleed in a "no face contact" tournament and it was ruled to be a valid strike :rolleyes:

Why would it be counterproductive?

You don't have any idea of what sort of training they have been doing and I wouldn't be throwing them into competition against far more experienced students. I have other new students that I'm advising not to do sparring competition yet. These two students have above average instinct for timing and are utilizing the basic tools well enough to compete in a division limited to newbies.

That was a pretty blanket statement to make.

The sooner a student can get a handle on basic fighting methods the sooner they should compete, if they have a desire to compete. They will only be better for it.

[red5angel]

is this a tma style tourney? If it was I think I'd be ok with having to do forms stuff since it's a part of the training for the most part.

[GLW]

"The way you describe it sounds like CMA guys were making up rules to keep from getting beaten up by others. Who cares if he's karate. if he can fight. fight. if he competes in a southern form then he's going to have to do things well to place because the judges know what southern styles look like.."

Not that at all.

In 2004, you all have the luxury of having been in this when there WERE competitions that had judges that actually KNEW what they were supposed to be looking at. You also have the luxury of having experienced continuous sparring where the aim was to keep going...not stop for a point. AND you have the luxury of having more venues for full contact than simply PKA (Remember that...where there were no takedowns, mandatory N number of kicks per round...and when those were thrown, it degenerated into bad boxing....).

These rules were developed back then. (Granted, they are probably outdated and the major CMA groups no longer require such things...but they do NOT allow Gi's :) )

At that time, the whole idea of NOT stopping a fight to call a point was brand new. No one did that and to my knowledge, the CMA Only events in Houston, Tx. were the first to do that.

There was a bit of elitism in there. The attitude was "we are sick and tired of Karate style events...and we want nothing to do with those methods....and THOSE people promoting them"

The revolt was against ALL CMA styles being in a single division. At that time, ALL weapons were also in a single division. It was typical for a competition to be scheduled and NO judges other than the friends of the promoter were invited. Then, at the beginning of the event, they would make an announcement asking for all black belts and instructors to come to table X....and they would draft you to be a judge....and all you had to say was you were a black belt...even if you had no real training at all.

(There WAS a grand experiment in trying to have forms LEAD to fighting. I would say that that experiment failed.)

The idea was to say "We ARE different in approach. We WILL set our own path... If we want to join in to their events, we can...but we don't want their approach to infect us. There was also a concerted effort to INVITE judges so there would be qualified people judging.

Now, if you are going to invite judges and pay for 50% of their hotel costs (which IS pretty common), you have a real expense for your event. If you are promoting your event by saying that the competitors will be judged by people that are qualified to evaluate them, you then have an issue to deal with. If you include other styles, you have to include judges for them. More money for that.

This approach had been growing for about 5 years or so before the first idea about the Lei Tai stage and Sanshou was ever thought up.

The whole idea is probably outdated... Form is a specialty and there are those that do it very well and have no idea what they are doing. Fighting can be a specialty as well. So far, the only person to have competed at a high level in both has been Jason Yee. So...making a connection between the two is not really necessary. It would be enough to simply have a dress code for the events and let the chips fall where they may.

I am giving the HISTORICAL perspective of how the decisions for this type of rule came about. Personally, I still view it as being a choice. If I don't like the rules, the promoter, the organization, whatever, I speak with my time and money by not attending. If I DO attend, I make sure I KNOW and FOLLOW the rules they have laid out.

[Oso]

red5, yes, it is a cma event. My gripe is that I don't teach anything longer than a 3 or 4 move line drill during the first 6 months. So, my complaint would be mostly for that division...although, as I've said now, I'm against mandatory forms as a prerequisite for sparring competition.

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha, first and foremost, a huge YAWN to your sterotypical response, can't find another way to troll?

Second, have you ever fought full contact? Find out how "simple" San Da is. You might "simply" be sitting on your butt with a bloody nose and a concusion

GLW, I notice you ducked the #1 issue, what if your TCMA doesn't do forms?

I can name 5 very legit traditional styles where you don't do forms.

So they can't spar because you want a "pure" Chinese martial art competition? :rolleyes:

[GLW]

I did NOT duck the question.

It is a very small part of the CMA community.

I did NOT say whether or not I agreed with the concept.

(in fact, for Sanshou, it is a stupid idea since the training for high level Sanshou or high level Taolu are so time consuming that it is next to impossible to do both and do both well).

When the rule was first put into effect, I know that the original architects of the rule did NOT consider any styles that did not have forms. However, they also did not worry about styles that normally don't compete in forms either.

In those instances, the competitors were typically handled by an exception basis...meaning they did things like speaking with someone like Jeff Bolt in person.

[lkfmdc]

it is STILL a retarded idea, no matter how people try and explain it....

I love the proposition of the reverse equation, ie if you want to do forms, you have to FIGHT first!!!!

My lord, you could see the howls, woeful sorrow and crying,,,

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I love the proposition of the reverse equation, ie if you want to do forms, you have to FIGHT first!!!!


I second that... Would be interesting to see what happens to the forms competition when shaped by having to train in contact sparring.

[Oso]

Just got a response from the promoter and I respect his decision, reasoning and opinion. I just don't agree necessarily.

He said that he wants the judges to get a good idea of the style that the fighter is representing before they fight. Valid, I think. I just don't think it's necessary.

As said above, the most cogent rebuttal is that form players should fight if fighters need to play a form. That would remove all argument from both sides of the fence as it would be completely fair...decent fighters look like crap on the floor and decent forms people look like crap in the ring.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Yum Cha, first and foremost, a huge YAWN to your sterotypical response, can't find another way to troll?

Second, have you ever fought full contact? Find out how "simple" San Da is. You might "simply" be sitting on your butt with a bloody nose and a concusion

So they can't spar because you want a "pure" Chinese martial art competition? :rolleyes:

...and you call my response a stereotypical troll? ...if you weren't so busy selling tickets to yourself, you might read what other people actually say instead of jumping to the wrong conclusion.

So, having looked at several of the sites, including yours, do I have the wrong facts? Your rules talk about all the protective gear you have to wear and yet you insist it's more realistic? Its a specialty, you learn how to use the gear, it changes how you fight, hate to burst your bad-ass bubble. You don't dive into your opponent like that when the sh1t goes down for real...you probably know that. Unless of course, you're the kind that likes to pick on opponents you know you can easily overwhelm. Girls, old women, the fat kid, your little brother, etc...

You jump to the conclusion I've never fought Full Contact in your "I'm so Bad" tone, and again, you're wrong, and small minded to make such a "Stereotypical" Ass-umption.

When I fought, we didn't wear the "sumo suit", we used 8 oz gloves, box and mouthguard, and they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured, and the organisers (the Sydney Chinatown Masters) couldn't afford the costs of special venues, ringside doctors, ambulances, etc that the Gaming (boxing) commission landed on them to provide.

It was club vs club, and everybody played, not just the "specialists." We had beautiful matches between stylists that demonstrated the characteristis of their style and we had slug-fests that degenerated into wrestling clinches and haymakers. The only rules were no elbows and no knees, and you could take someone down, but then it stopped.

It looked a lot like your site's photos, but without the extra protective gear, ring, etc..

By the way, I have been on my butt with a bloody nose and a concussion...ain't no big thing. Want pictures?

And, while we're talking about Ass-umptions, I never said anything about "deadly secret kung-fu" I'm just applauding and supporting getting all-rounders into the mix, not separating a tournament into specialists. Not lionising only martial artists who rely on protective gear for a false sense of realism. Its so monodimensional.

As a pat on the back Sunshine, I did like your assertion that forms players should be required to spar, fair enough. Like a triathalon, weapons, forms, fighting, total points for a winner. Beauty.

What is more admirable than training a well-rounded, disciplined, courageous, martial artist that carries the traditional skills and perspective of their style? Otherwise, go NHB, K1, or whatever.

Sounds to me like you like "draping" yourself traditions, but you've really just a taste for shortcuts and combination fried rice. You'll never know what you lost yet you belittle other styles for trying to keep it.

And just for the record, what are the "traditional" arts that have gloved fighting, but no forms? Just so I know what your frame of reference is.

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha,
Be honest, which bothers you more? The fact we are famous or the fact that we can fight? Man, such bitter posts....

Yes, our shows sell tickets, they SELL OUT, because we have people with the BALLS to actually fight going out there and putting on great shows. They don't just sit on internet forums talking about how "deadly" they are

Yes, my schools sells memberships, HUNDREDS of them, because unlike a lot of so called "traditional" schools, my students get in shape and learn how to fight. They see concrete results. They aren't just told how some guy 100 years ago in the traditoin used to be a bad azz

You have such a huge issue with protective gear. WHY? Do you really think shin guards and gloves make such a huge difference? People sure as heck get Knocked the BLACK out (KTFO) with them on .....

Like the time we KO'd a Thai guy and he said after the fight that it would have been different without shin guards. YEAH, his head would have been split TWICE as wide open by the bare shin

My guys just as easily fight WITHOUT GEAR, and still win

Hate to burst your "I'm a deadly traditionalist bubble"

The training produces FIGHTERS, period. My students have won at San Da, Muay Thai, grappling, BOXING, MMA... all different rules, all different gear formats...

You're really funny with your "don't dive in" line, ****, showed you've never been in a real fight. In real fights, clinches happen, and in addition, people try and tackle you. You can practice your deadly pheonix eye finger to death but you are still gonna end up on your butt if you can't wrestle

So where and when have you fought? Please do share! And as far as me, well, it is known here that I've also accepted no rules challenges, and I'm still here to type my opinions and pizz you off

Got to love the line

- "When I fought, ... they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured"

Dude, first of all, maybe if the participants had some DEFENSE they wouldn't get so badly injured they couldn't continue. We do no gear Muay Thai in NY all the time, the matches never have to be stopped, but then again, those are Thai boxers and San Da fighters and not deluded "traditionalists"

Second, maybe if you had worn head gear and shin guards you could have continued to compete, actually gotten some experience and actually gotten better....

I notice you didn't fight with KNEES, we do all the time. Our A guys and our PRO's fight with ELBOWS. And you want to talk to me about being more realistic?

So, you didn't answer me, were you one of the guys who got so injured that they couldnt' continue the tournament? Shame on you for getting KTFO'd

And for the record, as the adopted disciple of a world famous master, TRUST ME, I've forgotten more traditional Chinese martial art than you'll ever hope to see....

And finally, ever heard of natural style, Yi Quan, Hop Ga, Wah Kuen, Tin Gong Pai, or Mo style? No, didn't think so......

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha,
Be honest, which bothers you more? The fact we are famous or the fact that we can fight? Man, such bitter posts....

Yes, our shows sell tickets, they SELL OUT, because we have people with the BALLS to actually fight going out there and putting on great shows. They don't just sit on internet forums talking about how "deadly" they are

Yes, my schools sells memberships, HUNDREDS of them, because unlike a lot of so called "traditional" schools, my students get in shape and learn how to fight. They see concrete results. They aren't just told how some guy 100 years ago in the traditoin used to be a bad azz

You have such a huge issue with protective gear. WHY? Do you really think shin guards and gloves make such a huge difference? People sure as heck get Knocked the BLACK out (KTFO) with them on .....

Like the time we KO'd a Thai guy and he said after the fight that it would have been different without shin guards. YEAH, his head would have been split TWICE as wide open by the bare shin

My guys just as easily fight WITHOUT GEAR, and still win

Hate to burst your "I'm a deadly traditionalist bubble"

The training produces FIGHTERS, period. My students have won at San Da, Muay Thai, grappling, BOXING, MMA... all different rules, all different gear formats...

You're really funny with your "don't dive in" line, ****, showed you've never been in a real fight. In real fights, clinches happen, and in addition, people try and tackle you. You can practice your deadly pheonix eye finger to death but you are still gonna end up on your butt if you can't wrestle

So where and when have you fought? Please do share! And as far as me, well, it is known here that I've also accepted no rules challenges, and I'm still here to type my opinions and pizz you off

Got to love the line

- "When I fought, ... they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured"

Dude, first of all, maybe if the participants had some DEFENSE they wouldn't get so badly injured they couldn't continue. We do no gear Muay Thai in NY all the time, the matches never have to be stopped, but then again, those are Thai boxers and San Da fighters and not deluded "traditionalists"

Second, maybe if you had worn head gear and shin guards you could have continued to compete, actually gotten some experience and actually gotten better....

I notice you didn't fight with KNEES, we do all the time. Our A guys and our PRO's fight with ELBOWS. And you want to talk to me about being more realistic?

So, you didn't answer me, were you one of the guys who got so injured that they couldnt' continue the tournament? Shame on you for getting KTFO'd

And for the record, as the adopted disciple of a world famous master, TRUST ME, I've forgotten more traditional Chinese martial art than you'll ever hope to see....

And finally, ever heard of natural style, Yi Quan, Hop Ga, Wah Kuen, Tin Gong Pai, or Mo style? No, didn't think so......

[Icewater]

So to answer your question Oso, mandatory participation in forms should be required because it facilitates discussion threads. These threads are available for asking reasonable questions that ultimately lead into 'my dog is bigger than your dog' discussions.' The aforementioned dog discussion will eventually degrade into sarcasm and ultimately posturing. In turn, posturing can lead into a fight. We all know that sparring is necessary to improve ones fighting ability. Therefore, mandatory forms lead to sparring. So if you are going to enter the sparring competition, you might as well do forms because they are one and the same.

[Oso]

LMAO !!!!

Well, this thread has strengthened my stance on how and why I want my students to spar. So, it's a good thing.