wt/vt/wc

[PQS]

Hi I'm a newbie, for logisital reasons it's good for me to train in LT WT but is is it "wing chun" as other sites are slagging LT for past "indescrections" . Can any one give me a clue about the training programm? or is it a money making program.
thanx
PQS

[kungfu cowboy]

Sorry, we're not allowed to talk politics here.

"I ain't got time for no jibber-jabber!"-----Mr. T

[cobra]

I am a student of Leung Ting WingTsun and have been for two years now. I can assure you I do not pay any more for this training than you would any other, and it is Wing Chun, the pronunciations are the same in chinese and the spelling was only changed so the Grandmaster could differentiate his people from all the rest. I have not ever studied WC under anyone else, but I can assure you the teaching methods work and will give you some really good tools to work with. This system is standardized throughout the world and has checks and balances in place to assure quality. So, the people in London learn the same way we do and have the same standards we have to test by. As I said, I have been a student for two years and I do not see anyone getting rich around me, just a bunch of dedicated instructors and students who love WingTsun working hard together learning. If Grandmaster Leung Ting makes money selling books, then that is good for him, he has spent many years studying and researching WingTsun, and literally dedicated his life to promoting it. He has literally thousands and thousands of students in over 63 countries throughout the world. His success didn't come by ripping people off. Stick with it you'll see, if you have any more questions e- mail me at yort95@aol.com

Hope that helps

Scott

Just my 4 cents!!

[Armin]

Hi guys!

Just a slight correction:

"So, the people in London learn the same way we do and have the same standards we have to test by."

Sorry, that's not true. Over here in Europe "we" have different programms as the people in the US - we have the EWTO (big boss: Kernspecht) and you have the (I believe) the AWTMA (big boss now: Kelzenberg and or Ting). The EWTO is the only organisation that teaches this "Blitz-defense"-stuff.

=> The programms are different.


Armin.

[PQS]

So what is the difference? and how do the U.K organisation differ from the rest of the world? is Lat Sau Wing Chun? I am not trying to be political it's just at my age which is 45 I'm trying not to waste to much time.
thanx
PQS

[wtsihing]

depends on who the instructors for the particular areas are in the United States. My instructor trained at the Castle Langenzele in Germany for his first two primary grade instructor's levels (technician grade) so the programs in our WT school's locations are based on the EWTO programs. But his philosophy is to teach everything else he knows as well. So, we do EWTO programs (including "Blitz Defense"), we do GM Leung Ting classical application training , etc. The AWTA will have more clarity in it's standard after GM Leung Ting's first set of upcoming seminars.

The overall WT system's programs help to ensure that there is a certain amount of consistency in the material of a student's educational structure. How well a particular instructor does with the available material is dependent on that instructor. Of course there are very adept WC and VT instructors as well. Lineage is not everything, but it can give you a good base. A smart student can easily surpass a not so attentive instructor's understanding. You get out what you put in. It always helps to shop around

[cobra]

Sorry, that's not true. Over here in Europe "we" have different programms as the people in the US - we have the EWTO (big boss: Kernspecht) and you have the (I believe) the AWTMA (big boss now: Kelzenberg and or Ting). The EWTO is the only organisation that teaches this "Blitz-defense"-stuff.

=> The programms are different.

Call it what you want, WingTsun is WingTsun.

Just my 4 cents!!

[wtsihing]

You didn't read my post well enough. My teacher is from Europe. I know the EWTO programs. I know Boztepe's old AWTO programs, and I know GM Leung Ting's classical application training, and I also am training in "Blitz Defense". My lineage is 2nd generation to the Castle. (which, by way of Boztepe being dismissed, makes my traditional Sifu Dr. K). If you question this, you may confirm this via Dr. K, Sifu Heirich Pfaff, or Sifu Giuseppe Schembri. You will find it all in sunny California, (If you want WT that is).

Cheers.

And by the way, the big boss is now LT in the U.S. I will be attending his upcoming seminars with my instructor, along with the re-organiztion meetings to determine how the AWTA will structure itself. LT is traditionalist. If your instructor is not yet a Sifu, his students have the same Sifu as the instructor.

[Scott]

Politics aside and lineage aside, the difference basically comes down to this:

The WORDS Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, and Wing Tsun don't mean anything. There is no correct way to spell "Wing Chun," because there is no spelling for it--it is a symbol. So a traditional school may spell their name "Ving Tsun," though that is unlikely because Ving Tsun has become synonymous with Leung Ting's branch of schools.

Leung Ting has a bit of a sad story. He is very good at Wing Chun, but since he didn't train directly with Yip Man, people don't give him the credit he deserves. He even faked a picture of himself with Yip Man--but I feel he had to claim that he trained with Yip so that people would come to his school.

But does training with Yip Man necessarily make you a great Wing Chun player? No. It's likely that Leung Ting is just as good or better than any or all of Yip Man's direct disciples.

That being said, the main differences are that Leung Ting's schools tend to change the art to try and add in some groundfighting techniques (while not breaking from the theories and laws that make Wing Chun what it is--thus they are not *******izing the system, only expanding it,) while Wing Chun schools seems to focus primarily on Wing Chun in the way that Yip Man taught it.

I chose Wing Chun because personally if I were to learn groundfighting, I'd rather learn it from a system of groundfighting--such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Also, on a personal note, Leung Ting's schools seem to be a bit watered down--I went to a school in Austin and watched a class do nothing but walking Pak/Tan Da's up and down the room. No partners, no drilling, no sets. And they pay twice as much as I do =P

BUt $80 a month isn't too unreasonable for a good martial arts class, I just got lucky with $40 a month.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[wtsihing]

okay

[Armin]

Hi!

As long as we can talk about prices without being too hot over politics, I'd like to say the following: It doesn't matter what branch you learn the price for your training should depend on the teacher. If you have a good teacher you are willing to pay more, if you have a bad teacher, you are not.

And if you have a good teacher, it doesn't even matter, what branch you're training, too. For example: it would be better for you to learn from good WT-teacher than from a bad Wong-VT-teacher and vice versa.

And one thing more (I think we've been talking about this lately, too): If you're teacher is a good fighter, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's a good teacher, too (I don't think I'd go to training held by Mike Tyson :) ).


Armin.

[ATENG]

(nt)

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[Vankuen]

From what I have heard and read, it is believed Leung ting is one of the very last yip man closed door students. I have also heard that most of what he learned came from the si hings and senior students of yip man, with very little contact of yip man himself.

Thats just what I heard.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While it is all fine and well to discuss the art of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun and Wing Tsun and compare methods and philosophies, it is dangerous to discuss specific people.

I would ask everyone to back away from whether a "specific" person trained with this guy or that. Suffice it to say that there is evidence to support both sides of the story. Several of Yip Mans senior students have come forward and stated that the person in question did train with Yip Man. However, as to the extent that varies. I think that in most traditional schools one gets most of their instruction from Sihings. Personally, I don't see any harm in learning and practicing from a Sihing as long as the Sifu supervises and insures the training is correct.

Peace,

Dave

[Sihing73]

Hi Scott,

Not sure where you visited but I would say that if you went to a WT school and no one was making contact it was either a beginners class or was only a portion of the training. I know that when I did WT we had two person contact drills quite a bit.

As to it being watered down well, you are welcome to your opinion and I am sure it is valid from your perspective. I left the WT system for "political" reasons but I did not dislike the system and found it to be quite viable. I had ample opportunity to test the system out in a career in Law Enforcement and it worked for me ;) Of course, I also learned and incorporated other WC into my skillset.

Cost is an interesting issue and can be caused by many things. I know that my Sifu, Chung Kwok Chow, charges quite a bit for his Westport CT classes. However he does not set the fee but the guy who owns the school he teaches at does. Also, I have heard that CT is high anyhow. Remember that there are several factors considered regarding fees; cost of training facility/rent etc. Cost of insurance. Cost of continued training for the instructor. I am sure there are other things as well. If you were lucky enough to locate a school which you can afford and which you enjoy then so much the better.

One last thing, a bit of friendly advice so to speak ;). Be careful about making comments which you do not have direct knowledge of. I am not saying whether they are correct or incorrect but one can back himself into an unfavorable position by making broad generalized statements.

Peace,

Dave

[tnwingtsun]

I'm back!


:D

[tnwingtsun]

whoops,double post

Not anymore ;) :p

Welcome back :D

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 08-22-01 at 07:23 AM.]

[cobra]

"I chose Wing Chun because personally if I were to learn groundfighting, I'd rather learn it from a system of groundfighting--such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Also, on a personal note, Leung Ting's schools seem to be a bit watered down--I went to a school in Austin and watched a class do nothing but walking Pak/Tan Da's up and down the room. No partners, no drilling, no sets. And they pay twice as much as I do =P

BUt $80 a month isn't too unreasonable for a good martial arts class, I just got lucky with $40 a month."

I am a member of Austin WingTsun and I only remember doing such a workout maybe three times in two years and it was all in the first year and we never did it the whole class time. This is a perfect example of how you can't sit in on a class and tell much about a school. Our workouts are all partner oriented, lots of applications, drills, chi-sao, etc.... Oh yeah, and it's only 70 a month and I'll guarantee you the rent in Austin is probably not very cheap.

Just my 4 cents!!

[jesper]

It doesnt matter which lineage you choose, its all VT.
There are some differences in applications. Some are more powerminded, some more evasive. Try the different schools, talk to the teachers and study where you feel most comfortable. dont listen to the politics.
If you get confused about the differences and the politics, just remember that WT/WC is not a style. But more a collection of principles. Thats why many people start new lineages when they reach a certain skill mastery. Simply because they start adapting the theories to their personallity.

[cobra]

IMHO, it is best to take the plunge and sign up somewhere and give it at least 6 months , then re-evaluate. But after a couple of years you should be able to look back and see a huge gain in skill. You should also be able to look ahead and see that you still have a long way to go. Sometimes you just gotta take a chance.

Just my 4 cents!!

[tnwingtsun]

In my best ELVIS voice..........


Thank ya very much......

[Sharky]

god people choosingone wc school over another - be thankful there's ANY wing chun near you.

Some of us aren't so privaleged [sp]

================================================== =
The battle started with a grapple, he had real long hair so a grabbed a hand full, and chopped 'em in the Adams-apple, his partner in back of you tried to attack you, so I'ma twist 'em up like a pret-zel then I'ma tag you/I can't believe he wanna grapple again, I swung 'em around like I was dancing wit 'em, put his arms in back of his head and snapped 'em again, I fractured his limbs and put em in the figure-"6 subtracted from 10"...