Small Tiger Swallow [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

mantisben

10-19-2004, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
What branch of mantis is this from??

(interesting sound effects too btw :) )

I'll say Shaolin Long-Fist. This form is contained in the book by Yang Jwing-Ming and Jeffery A. Bolt titled "Shaolin Long-Fist Kung Fu". The book has a green cover. In the book, the form Xiao Hu Yan is called "Shaw Fu Ien". According to the book, it is a middle-level form in the Shaolin Long Fist style.

An excerpt from the book:

"The purpose of this middle level sequence is to teach the Long Fist student the principles, ideas, and techniques of Northern Praying Mantis, which have been modified to fit the stylistic features of Long Fist."

Great book. Great sequence. Great author.

Three Harmonies

10-19-2004, 09:55 AM

Very popular form in Taiwan Mantis circles, seems less well known in Mainland Mantis circles. My take on it, and my talking with some "Longfist Mantis" friends of mine seem to conclude that this was originally a Longfist set, that had some Mantis flavor injected into it. The few people I have seen do app's from this set had more of a longfist flavor than Mantis.
Jake

oasis

10-19-2004, 10:23 AM

clip from dr. yang's video on it (http://store.yahoo.com/ymaa/shaollonfisk5.html)

download at the bottom of the page :)

Robert Young

10-19-2004, 11:27 AM

I think I can clarify some confusion here as far as how the Small Tiger Swallow form came to Long Fist.

The form Small Tiger Swallow practiced by Long Fist guys in Taiwan was originally from Seven Star Prying Mantis. The reason it looks more like Long Fist was that the people who practice it did not know the difference between PM and Long Fist. It was NOT modified to fit the stylistic features of Long Fist. The way to practice PM is actually quite different from LF.

The author of the book "Shaolin Long-Fist Kung Fu" prabably did not know how the form came to Long Fist from 7* PM. He was taught by his teacher and his teacher did not pass down all the details of the history. Small, Middle, and Big Tiger Swallow are typical 7* PM forms. In 1950's, Several senior students of my GM Han were sent by GM Han to learned PM from GM Wang, Song Ting. That was how Little Tiger Swallow came to Long Fist's curriculum. Later the author, Mr. Yang's teacher, Lee Mao-Qing(my LF younger uncle) learned the form from his senior LF brother.

There you go for the history.

Cheers,

Three Harmonies

10-19-2004, 04:27 PM

Interesting, but I am not sure on this. I have never seen this set in the Quan Pu of any traditional Mantis. I apologize but I am not familiar with these teachers you speak of. Could you elaborate?
Jake

cerebus

10-20-2004, 02:01 AM

This form is also a part of the Northern Mantis/ Shaolin curriculum of Korean master Shin Dae Woung in Italy. Master Shin is from Inchon Korea where he learned Kung Fu from Chinese master Lu Shui Tien (who is better known in the U.S. as the Bagua teacher of Sifu Park Bok Nam).

I've seen a variety of spellings by instructors under master Shin but my sifu referred to it as "Shoien" as in "Shaw Hu Ien" run together into one word (take into account that the form & it's name were passed from a Chinese to a Korean to an Italian, things can get a bit garbled).

Oh yeah, also from what I understand, master Lu Shui Tien was originally from Shantung province.

Three Harmonies

10-20-2004, 05:41 AM

Shanghai Kid
No I have not seen it, but that does not mean anything either! Interesting topic guys.

Jake

Tainan Mantis

10-20-2004, 07:05 AM

Li Hongjie(my shiye) learned xiao hu yen from Wang Songting.
Becuase Li Hong Jie was better known as a student of Li Kun Shan, famous PM master in Taiwan, others thought this form was taught by Li Kunshan, but it was not.

Li Hong Jie said that this was a form created in the 30's.

My Shrfu learned small middle and large Huyen and his shifu said these forms were Mizhong yi, not PM.

I recall KUP said the same thing here about a year or so ago. I thought that was interesting.

But I am not drawing a final conclusion as I have seen big dif in different versions of xiao huyen.
Some are like Mi Zhong chuen and some are like 7* ala cha chuei.
Though all definetly being the same xiao huyen.

Robert Young

10-20-2004, 10:49 AM

Xiao Hu Yian, Zhong Hu Yian, and Da Hu Yian are typical PM forms. Many PM line from Jin Woo have those forms too. Although there are several similarity between Northern Shaolin forms and Xiao Hu Yian, Xiao Hu Yian still have several PM trade mark moves that LF don't have. With the same line of form, Da Hu Yian are all PM moves. Even if PM had adapted some northern shaolin forms to Those Hu Yian forms, the forms were totally transformed to PM flavor or style.

Robert Young

10-21-2004, 10:15 AM

wolfen,

Zou Bao-Fu is NOT a student of Wang, Song Ting. From his age, he was not even born when GM Wang passed away. From his moves, his Long Fist probably learned the forms from Adam Hsu or some Long Fist people. But, he is not a Long Fist family member. Not to mention GM Wang's line. Even Adam's Xiao Hu Yian was not from GM Wang directly, He learned the forms from his Long Fist senior brothers.

Zhou Bo Fu made a lot of advertisement and sell video tapes. I think he is a good business man. Sorry to say this. But, there are simply more and more people like that sell wrong information for their business.

Robert Young

10-21-2004, 05:49 PM

wolfen,

In Taiwan, there are only a few people teaching Long Fist. I know most of them. The only one who teach only Wang Song-Ting line officially is Gao Dao-Sheng. Even master Gao was from Long Fist originally.

GM Wang has been very close to GM Han. My teacher know every one of GM Wang's student. GM Wang is not an easy teacher to learn from, that is why he has very few students. I have mention Zhao Bao-Fu to my teacher and master Gao before. No one from GM Wang's students know about him. I'm not trying to say bad thing about this person. But, Long Fist people and GM wang's line people in Taipei know about this person and know what he does.

All the students under GM Han went to study PM from GM Wang did not become his indoor student. Most of them return to Long Fist about learning a form or two. Master Gao is the only one stayed.

I don't know who Fernando is. I don' think his chart is quite correct. Su Yu-Zhang and Liang Zhi-Chi are not GM Wang's students. They are from Long Fist originally actually.

I don't know Adam Hsu's where about. I heard he is in Taiwan now.

In terms of quality of his vedio. From his move, all I can say is that he does not have out Long Fist flavor on his Long Fist form. The way we do our PM is that the same as his either.

Today, every one can do whatever they want. You can learn a form from anywhere and start teaching. It's everyone's freedom.
You can believe whatever you want and do whatever you want as long as you don't do things against the law. Chinese martial art society has many people like him, but what can you say.

If you believe him, that's very fine to me. That is no my concern. I only express my side of story.

Cheers,

yu shan

10-21-2004, 09:55 PM

My Shifu has taught xiao hu yen to a few here. Not to me though, but this is ok... I have enough on my plate. During Master Shr`s visit here, I got to see your Shifu break this form down... pretty sweet, especially his flavor! And thank you for the info about this form in it`s relationship to Tang Lang.

Tainan Mantis

10-22-2004, 07:43 AM

Hi Folks,
More info.
My shrfu did discover that students of Wang Songting learned the same forms he taught with some differences.

Chen Guochin(Vincent Chen), a famous student of 8 Step Wei Xiaotang, studied with Wang Songting up until his death.
He also said that his shifu, Master Wang always taught the forms differently, even on different days.
Because of this, all the students got together and made a recording of Wang Songting doing his forms.

Vincent does not know what came of that recording.

My Shriye, Li Hongjie, who also studied with Wang said that it was hard to learn from him.
Li wanted to learn a certain sword form so he had to keep going back to learn every other form hoping that Wang would teach the sword form.

I have alos heard like Robert said, that Gao is the only oficial teacher under Wang.
Some other "tudi" never passed on the material.

Though Wang had a MA brother in southern Taiwan, mentioned in Wei's sonnet of masters.

This is how Taiwan gets it's Laiyang Bengbu or Xioa Beng Bu as my Shifu calls it..
Very different from the 7* version commonly seen.

Robert,
Do you know for a fact that Wang Songting taught Beng Bu in Taiwan?
Taiwan has a Beng Bu similar to the 7* version, like in Huang Hanhsun's book.

Many have said that it was brought to Taiwan by Wang.
Yet, I have seen the footage(don't have it) of Wang doing his Lanjie.

I don't see how Wang's Beng Bu would be so close to the 7* version and yet his Lanjie is so far from the 7* version.

Robert Young

10-22-2004, 10:35 AM

Tainan Mantis,

> Do you know for a fact that Wang Songting taught Beng Bu in
> Taiwan? Taiwan has a Beng Bu similar to the 7* version, like in
> Huang Hanhsun's book.
Sorry, I don't know id GM Wang had taught Beng Bu in Taiwan. The most Beng Bu performance I saw was from Su Yu-Zhang. I don't think he learned it from GM Wang, at least not directly.

> Yet, I have seen the footage(don't have it) of Wang doing his
> Lanjie. I don't see how Wang's Beng Bu would be so close to
> the 7* version and yet his Lanjie is so far from the 7* version.
GM Wang is Seven Star PM. And Beng Bu is Beng Bu, It should be same or similar.
Lan Jie is different. Some people called Lan Jie as Ruan Jie. Ruan as mess, Jie as connect. It means you can connect several PM moves together ad call it Ruan Jie form.

In the past, many masters did not have the patience to teach all the details. If the students are smart and quick, they can picked up all the good stuffs. If the students are new or beginners, they can only pick up some of the moves or even simply version of the moves. That is one of the reason the forms changes, especially a form was passed down through several generations. So, some difference in the forms between different lines are normal. If this applies to Lan Jie, it can be very different among different students.

My teacher is much nicer. But, if he see students have hard time to learn moves, he will simplify it so students can learn easily. If the students keep practicing, then he will adjust back to the original moves. But, many times, students did not practice enough and the moves start to change. Some students thought their simplified moves are the original ones. That is another reason forms change. This happens many times in our own family.

This is just my own observation.

Cheers,

sayloc

10-22-2004, 02:46 PM

Tainan

Could you tell me what lineage your systems bung bo comes from? Does it teach more than one version of bung Bo?

I was just curious after reading one of your previous posts about one bung bo being different than the more common seven star bung bo.

Thanks for any info

MantisCool

10-22-2004, 09:00 PM

OK! Which is correct? Small/Big Tiger Swallow or small/big tiger Goose?

I asked because in the quanpu of LWK it is written as tiger goose and in cantonese I always heard them calling it "siu/tai fu gnan" and never siu/tai fu ying if it is a swallow!

Tainan Mantis

10-23-2004, 07:01 AM

sayloc,
My shifu learned Beng BU from several different masters.

They are all vastly different.

Only the version he learned from Zhao Zhuxi has a lineage title, which is Taiji tanglang.

Most of his teachers only called their PM as tang lang with no prefixes.

I learned two, but only practice one and the other is reference material.

RY,
Thanks for the info.

sayloc

10-23-2004, 01:32 PM

Tainan

Thanks for the reply.

Is the version you practice the Taiji tang long version?

Do you practice your version because it is more practical, closer to the original, just looks and feels nicer or it is the one your master tells you to practice?

Does your master see a common thread amoung all of his versions of bung bo?

I hope this is not to many questions on this subject, but this is a subject that interests me.

Thanks for any info

Tainan Mantis

10-24-2004, 07:06 AM

S,
I practice the Taiji version.

I learned it from both Mantis108 as well as my shifu.

I practice this version becuase it is more in line with the other group of forms I practice.

Most of the differences are stylistic and I will confuse myself if I spend a lot of time doing them both.

I do not know which is closer to the original, though I have spent some time trying to get to this answer.

The old manuscripts I have in my hands don't help much with the history of this form.

My educated guess is that it is a group of moves from an older version of PM which may or may not exist.

The only thing I am somewhat sure about is that it is not Wang Lang's creation.
But I have no proof so don't quote me.

sayloc

10-24-2004, 07:21 AM

Thanks for the info Tainan.

Have a good day!

zep

11-08-2004, 01:06 PM

Presently im learning this form.

Hello
thanks onyomi for your reply
small tiger swallow is not the first form in the gao system that is taught as someone else quoted. but is a middle level form taught. from what i have seen this form is popular in long fist and northern mantis circles and every verison i have seen is within 80% same as gaos form.
the site below is one of gaos senior students performing small tiger swallow and praying mantis hands.

ENJOY :)

http://www.kungfuleuven.be/

GermanMantis

11-08-2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by zep
Presently im learning this form.

Be proud! Nice form, esp. for competitions.

ngokfei

11-09-2004, 10:28 AM

I've always wondered about this form. I learned a version of this set from my sifu Shum Leung (Eagle claw). I looked at Yang's demo and while there are many similarities there are also some major differences.

Its possible that it is not the small but either the medium or big
Can they be seen anywhere?

Also my teacher translates the set as Small Tiger Eye.

Would make sense that he acquired it since my sigung was very active inthe Jing Wu and si tai gung was friends with Lo Wan Yuk.

eric

shaolinche

11-11-2004, 04:16 PM

The Xiao Hu Yan form that I practice doesn't have any Tang Lang Shou (hands in it). We call it in English Small Tiger and Crane (it is not southern style). I have seen other versions of xiao hu yan and they look all similar, ours is different because there isn't any tang lang hands. The style that I practice is all Northern Shaolin. My shiye Yin Chian Ho was a famous master in Taiwan, my father was his top student and I don't think that my Grandmaster Yin learned the form from Grandmaster Wang Song Ting. I think he learned it in Shandong, when he was still there.

onyomi

01-27-2006, 06:13 AM

Xiao Hu Yan is actually the first and oldest Praying Mantis form. It was created by Wang Lang while he was still studying at Shaolin, which is why it looks more like a Longfist/Shaolin form than a pure Mantis form. Wang Lang later went on to create Beng-bu, the first "purely" Mantis form. The "Xiao" in "Xiao Hu Yan" was originally written with the character 嘯, meaning "howl or screech." It was only later changed to the character for "small/lesser" when later masters created "middle" and "greater" Huyan forms. It does refer to a tiger AND a swallow, not a tiger-swallow. The form is supposed to be fierce as a tiger and light as a swallow (when you jump, for example, you should land without making a noise).

Longfist Mantis is just the name that Gao Dao Sheng used to register his Taiwanese school because "Tang Lang Men" was already taken. His teacher, Wang Song Ting, traditionally taught this form first as it was the first Praying Mantis form chronologically. Gao called his school "Longfist Mantis" because he had also studied with Longfist master, Han Qing Tang, who was friends with Wang Song Ting and who often exchanged students with him. Wang himself, however, was part of the 7* lineage. Xiao Huyan does not belong to any particular lineage as it predates the seperation of Mantis lineages.

Three Harmonies

01-27-2006, 07:07 AM

Can one inquire as to your sources for this information?
Thanks
Jake :)

18elders

01-27-2006, 07:38 AM

Per Kevin Brazier:

A famous Japanese student of Su Yu Zhang incorrectly published several facts of mantis. One of those is that Xiao Hu Yan was created by Wang Lang.
Xiao Hu Yan was Not created by Wang Lang. It is a recently created form most
likely created in the 30's though this date is still debatable.

Moreover, those forms of Mantis Boxing regarded as part of the oldest core of Mantis all share characteristics amongst themselves to which Xiao Hu Yan does not share. Forms such as Beng Bu, Luan Jie, Ba Zhou, Mantis Hands.

Xiao Hu Yan was also not taught by Li Kun Shan.
Another mistake in the published book. It was widely taught by Wang Songting to many people, including students of Li's such as Li Hongjie.

As for the significance of the name of the form this can probably be found in the ancient Chinese Military Novel that takes places during the 3 Kingdoms: San Guo Yan Yi.

Three Harmonies

01-27-2006, 08:12 AM

Good call elders. Their is more similarity to LF with this set then with Mantis. My understanding has always been what you (Brazier) stated.
Thanks
Jake :)

Robert Young

01-27-2006, 12:18 PM

This is the things I learned about Xiao Hu Yian.

Xiao Hu Yian was not the first form GM Wang taught. My teacher learned this form directly from GM Wang. When GM Han asked GM Wang to teach GM Han's LF students, there were 4 and my teacher was one of them. This was around 1950s. Each of the LF students learned one form and they are all different. There was no which one taught first situation.

About Master Gao Dao-Sheng's story, This is what I know. Master Gao came to GM Han around 1960 to become a student. GM Han basically introduced him to GM Wang and have him learn from GM Wang. That was the reason he named his line Long Fist Tang Lang. That was the way he appreciated GM Han the opportunity to learn from GM Wang. Without GM Han, master Gao would not have the chance to learn from GM Wang and he probably could not have the status of what he has today in Taiwan. And in private, master Gao and my teacher still call each other brothers because of this double relationship, both in LF and 7* PM.

Cheers,

K.Brazier

01-27-2006, 05:22 PM

Hi ngokfei,

"Its possible that it is not the small but either the medium or big
Can they be seen anywhere?"

Impossible.
Medium and large are completely different forms.
They are the same style of motion, with a longfist look to them ust like Xiao Hu Yan.
The shifu who knew all three of these forms in Taiwan(Shandong man) called his boxing style Mizong Yi.
That is different from Mizong CHuen, but loks similar.
Also, there are two different schools of Mizong Yi. The other one, has a more Taiji appearance to it. One of their masters produced a book in the 30's and critisized the Shandong MiZong Yi I was taught as not being the Authentic.

For the record, my opinion of these three forms is that the middle is the best for performance as well as being a good form to train techniques of fighting. I like it the most.

Kevin

zep

01-27-2006, 07:13 PM

Hello
thanks onyomi for your reply
small tiger swallow is not the first form in the gao system that is taught as someone else quoted. but is a middle level form taught. from what i have seen this form is popular in long fist and northern mantis circles and every verison i have seen is within 80% same as gaos form.
the site below is one of gaos senior students performing small tiger swallow and praying mantis hands.

ENJOY :)

http://www.kungfuleuven.be/

Robert Young

01-27-2006, 11:38 PM

> The double circle Gou Lou Tzi Shou while jumping in the air is too big circle for
> PM standard.
Not really. My own personal experience about our 7* Pm is actually bigger than LF.
Although there are many small PM moves that LF don't have, PM usually has bigger moves in some of the simlilar moves between LF and our PM. The move mentioned here is very popular among many other northern CMA like Yian Qin and Luo Han. I think PM simply use it in Xiao Hu Yian.

I have an example about the bigger move in our PM. There is a common LF move call "Fan Zhang Chuan Zhang". In right Bow stance, right palm flip and then left
palm palm up go through right palm, then turn body to right to Taming Tiger stance and left palm turn to lou and gou. In our PM forms, we do that too.
But, in our Tang Lang Sou, when the left palm go through right palm, we lift our right leg from Bow stance and to Rooster stance on left foot, then drop our right foot back to Taming tiger stance. This has much bigger move than LF.

> The jumping toe kick followed by floor sweep are just "too fancy" according to
> the PM standard.
No, this is actually a trade mark of our 7* PM move. We have Da Hu Yian, Xiao Hu Yian, and Tang Lang Sou under my teacher's line and they were all from GM Wang Song-Ting. All three of them has this move. And our LF don't have this.

> uses big circle and PM uses small circle. All the circle moves in this form are
> all "big circle".
This is another confusion also. Our PM also do big circle.
Here, I can not say other PM lines. I can only say the 7* pM lineage from GM Wang. This is what happen as I can see why people think PM do small circle. GM Wang has very fast move, but he also do very big move. Most people only see his speed and overlook his big move.

I have asked my teacher several times about this question. He always says we do big moves and GM Wang and several senior students of his also do big moves. Some of the students under GM Wang trying to do big and fast without success and ended up making the moves small in order to achieve the speed. The result is the moves have no power. One of the most senior students, Ma Zuo-Chi, of
GM Wang from Sang Dong has critisized master Gao in private about his small moves. Master Ma is much senior than master Gao so he has all the right to say that. I'm not trying to say bad thing about master Gao, after all he is my MA uncle. The story here is to show people some of the situation happened in our line. Again, I'm only saying our PM lineage.

When more and more people do small PM moves, the audience start to think PM has only small moves. Just like people think Long Fist is for Long Range fighting because of the 'LONG' Fist.

Cheers,

zep

01-28-2006, 12:01 AM

hello robert
i agree with what you say as our sifu encourage large circular movements and also long stances
also has us train doing high kicks mid range hand movements and then down to sweep knicks etc. all in one burst of movements. (freestyle)

onyomi

01-28-2006, 02:29 AM

Youknowwho's form looks basically identical to the version my Shifu teaches. I got my information from my shifu, who was a student of Wang Song Ting and his students. He got the info. from Wang Song Ting himself, who was already alive and practicing for quite a while by the 1930s. If the form had been created in the 30s he would have known this and told this info. to his students. My shifu said Xiao Huyan was the first form Wang taught him after he had learned all the basics.

zep

01-28-2006, 02:41 AM

does anybody have any info about entwining (coiling) dragon staff set or plum blossom sword sets from the wang song ting/master gao linage?

zep

01-28-2006, 02:46 AM

This is the Shao Hu Yen form that I know.

http://johnswang.com/my_shao_hu_yen.wmv

Very Similar to the form we are taught

onyomi

01-28-2006, 08:16 AM

does anybody have any info about entwining (coiling) dragon staff set or plum blossom sword sets from the wang song ting/master gao linage?

On my shifu's list of weapons forms taught he has "Qian-long Gun" (Diving Dragon Staff), "Meihua Jian" (Plum Flower Sword) and "Meihua Shuang-jian" (Plum Flower Double Sword). I have not personally studied any of these forms yet, but I could ask him about them if you have any specific questions.

Sifu Darkfist

01-28-2006, 10:52 PM

Little tiger swallow is th first form in whipping hands mantis (Shuai-shou).
We have this form as well.

onyomi

01-29-2006, 12:56 AM

What Robert says about GM Wang's Mantis is very true. When many people see my shifu's Mantis they think it looks kind of atypical. The primary difference, however, is just that he uses much lower stances than most modern PM practitioners. PM has the concept of "practice long, use short," just like LF. Many modern PMers have begun to practice forms with higher, more "real-life" height stances because they believe it more realistic or simply because it is much easier that way. Traditionally, however, PM practices large, long-range movements and very low stances that can then be "shrunk" for actual usage.

Robert Young

01-29-2006, 12:03 PM

Hi YouKnowWho,

How are you?

> Few more concerns about whether this is LF of PM form:

- The starting move of this form looks almost identical to the starting move of
Mai Fu Chuan #1, Mai Fu is LF form (Have never seen any other PM form start
as fancy as this one).
Yes, like I said before. It is a popular move in Northern China. Xiao Hu Yian simply
used it. Other Northern systems use that too.

- The ending move of this form looks almost identical to one of the move
(4 hand blocks) of the Mai Fu Chuan #1 or #2 move (Have never seen any other
PM form end as fancy as this one).
The ending of our version did not like Mai Fu actually. After White Crain Spread Wing, we simply hold our fist back to our waist and done. I think you were talking
about the finish move like Tai Zu Chang Chuan and She Zi Tang. If it is, I don't
know who add it to the form.

- The ending of Gou Lou Tzi Shou, the left hand end on the left waist (fist
heart facing up) instead of infront of the chest with palm facing down (the
big circle move)
After the end of Gou Lou, we are in Empty satance and then follow by the left instep kicks. That is the difference between LF and PM. Pm kicks right away. LF don't have move like that. Mai Fu #1 and Tai Zhu has the moves like you described.

- The hands moves and the double jumping toe kick followed by the floor sweep
look similiar to Wha Chuan.triple non-landing or 5 phoenix flying in the air.
The hands moves are identical - downward block, upper palm strike, upper cut
and strike on the other hand to make a back hook.
I don't know Wha Chuan, so I can not say anything.

- Jump up and drop down to striking tiger stance with leading arm block next to
the leading foot and then deliver horizontal back reverst punch is the LOGO of
LF (have never seen this LF logo in any other PM form).
Our Tang Lang Shou has it actually. I believe it is also a popular move in northern
China and people like it and used it.

Onyomi,

> Youknowwho's form looks basically identical to the version my Shifu teaches.
This is our LF version from GM Wang. The only version like this one is from LF.
And guess who learned it in the first place? It was my teacher. He then taught
the form to his LF borthers.

GM Wang taught a little different to his own students. Check to see master Gao's
version.

Cheers,

onyomi

01-29-2006, 01:53 PM

Onyomi,

> Youknowwho's form looks basically identical to the version my Shifu teaches.
This is our LF version from GM Wang. The only version like this one is from LF.
And guess who learned it in the first place? It was my teacher. He then taught
the form to his LF borthers.

GM Wang taught a little different to his own students. Check to see master Gao's
version.

Cheers,

My shifu's isn't exactly the same as youknowwho's--I just meant it is pretty much the same form. I've seen master Gao's version and it is only very slightly different from my Shifu's--primarily in the fact that I think my shifu performs it better! As I've said before, my shifu was a much later student of GM Wang than Gao--he was only 14 when Wang died. Therefore, if Wang or Han were teaching a different version by the time your teacher learned it then it would follow that my shifu would have learned that version rather than the one I've seen Gao perform. Please don't base your opinions on the idea that my shifu is Wei Zi Yun. Wei Zi Yun is a Hong Kong actor with little real talent. He learned the Damo Yijin-jing set from my shifu and is now using it to make books and DVDs. Zhou Baofu and Wei Zi Yun are most definitely not the same person! My shifu may not be well-known to your teacher because he was so young at the time, but both Adam Hsu and Shen Mao-hui recognize the fact that he was a student with GM Wang during his last years.

mantid1

01-29-2006, 02:43 PM

Darkfist

Do you happen to have a forms list for the whipping hands mantis?

Is Master Yang still in Canton or did he head out west?

Thanks for any info.

mooyingmantis

01-29-2006, 03:58 PM

Darkfist

Do you happen to have a forms list for the whipping hands mantis?

Is Master Yang still in Canton or did he head out west?

Thanks for any info.

As far as I know Tony is still teaching in Akron.

Robert Young

01-29-2006, 04:39 PM

> My shifu may not be well-known to your teacher because he was so young at the time, but both Adam Hsu and Shen Mao-hui recognize the fact that he was a student with GM Wang during his last years.

Zhou's Mai Fu came from master Shen. I can tell by the pictures on his web site.
And his Xiao Hui Yian is our version of Xiao Hu Yian. I can also tell from his pictures
on his web. If he learned his Mai Hu from master Shen, he would not be GM Wang's
desciple.

Taiwan is a small island, and CMA society is even smaller, not to mention the desciples
of the same family. GM Wang came to GM Han's house almost every weekends when he
was alive. My teacher's place is almost next to GM Han. If someone important like a desciple came to the
family, everybody knows. This is CMA thing. There is no way you can escape from it.
If you are Long Fist people, we know or at least heard about it.

Now, I have seen Zhou's web site many times. His descriptions of CMA or LF or 7*PM
are what we call outsider's information or amature mind set. Chinese society has
people like him all the time. Simply from his description of LF and 7* PM, it has
FRAUD written all over this person. If you like to learn from him, by all means. I don't
really care. It is your decision. What I can say is my side of story, that all.

And, what do you know what is good move or not? You just started. I have seen Zhou's
picture in his web site. His moves are not that good either. As for master Gao,
He has won a champion in a tournament. Everyone knows he is GM Wang's student. He
has earned 9 degree in CMA society. That is his credential. Where is Zhou's credenial?
Everything all came from his own mouth. That was why I suggest you to go out and
asked around. If you want to learn LF, go to master Shen or my other LF uncles.
if you want to learn 7* PM, go to master Gao or he may point you to someone else.
Why do you need to get second information while you can get the first.

Again, I sincerely suggest you to go out and ask around. Money spent can be earned
again, time waisted won't come back again. We only has so much time in our life.

Cheers,

onyomi

01-30-2006, 01:07 AM

Zhou knows more than one version of Xiao Huyan. He says he chose the one for the video because it was less well-known. Could you point me to a statement he makes about LF or PM that is incorrect or amateurish on his website? I can read Chinese so I also include the brief articles he has written (although he hasn't really written much in-depth about PM or LF on the website yet--just a brief intro). Here is the link to the "theory" section of my Shifu's webpage:

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/kungfu8.htm

He hasn't written hardly anything about LF here and has only written one brief, introductory article about PM. The rest of the articles are just about his general philosophy of Kung Fu study and related issues. Can you point me to a specific statement here that you disagree with or that you think proves his amateur level of development? What about what he writes here makes you think his information is fradulent or "outsider"? And don't tell me that only fake CMA teachers publish video tapes because I have seen advertised a VCD of Yang Taiji produced by your own teacher, Jiang Chang Gen! You make it sound like CMA is some kind of secret club and that only those who follow all the club rules are any good. Just because Zhou doesn't follow all your rules and isn't in your club's membership roster doesn't mean his CMA is no good.

You also can't judge his knowledge by what you see here. If you talk to him in person or even write him an email you would see that his understanding of PM and qigong is extremely good. He is not a fraud who claims to know everything about everything. If you ask him about Bagua-zhang he will probably refer you to Adam Hsu, saying that although he himself has studied Bagua, his understanding is still relatively incomplete. He understands PM best of all, so much that Adam Hsu has asked him to write a book about it.

You were not a student of Han yourself. You were not following Han and Wang around during their last years to know whom they were or weren't teaching. Just because you've never heard your teacher mention Zhou doesn't mean he wasn't there. Both Hsu and Shen, who WERE around during Han and Wang's last years DO recognize Zhou as their Kung Fu younger brother. That, combined with the fact that Zhou's knowledge of PM is obviously not just superficial are enough to convince me, regardless of whether the entire Taiwan martial arts community chooses to recognize him or not.

Here's my shifu's Xiao Huyan:
http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/TV002.wmv

And, although my shifu admits his LF is not as "biaozhun" as that of Han's students, here is his Taizu Er-lu:
http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/Sample006.wmv

Do you honestly think both of these performances reflect an amateur level of understanding and ability?

shaolinche

01-30-2006, 01:18 PM

Just wondering about Xiao Hu Yan. The Xiao Hu Yan I practice has some large differences than the versions that I have seen such as Master Gao Dao Sheng's. However there are many similarities and I can tell that the form is xiao hu yan.
What I am wondering if all of the Taiwan masters that came from Shandong learned xiao hu yan from Master Wang Song Ting? The reason I ask is my Grandmaster was Yin Chian Ho. He was a famous master in Taiwan and originally from Shandong. Grandmaster Yin had connections with Qingdao Guoshu guan, but I am not sure if he learned Xiao Hu Yan from Wang Song Ting. I think that xiao hu yan is a great form and has great applications to it.

Robert Young

01-30-2006, 02:40 PM

onyomi,

The way you said it, let me feel you are Zhou himself. I'm never interested in this kind of argument. As far as I'm concerned, Zhou is not one of us, neither on LF nor PM. And, many CMA people, not only LF people, in Taiwan agree with me too.

And personally, I don't give Adam too much credit either.

Our discussion ends here.

shaolinche,

GM Wang did taught in Sang Dong Guo Shu Guan. But, Xiao Hu Yian is a popular form, you can learn it from many other sources too. Many PM branches has it. So, you just have to find that out yourself.

YouKnowWho

> Fu Son-Nan could also do this form very well. Did he learn it from GM Han or his father Fu Ja-bin?
I really don't know. His dad has learned from Din Zi-Chen, a Liu He PM master. They may have the form too. But, if his version is like yours, then it was from my teacher for sure. Fu Son-Nan published a series of books about the jouney of his father and him. I saw the book, it seems like he already knew the form before he became a LF desciple. If you have not seen it, I'll recommand you read it. It is somehow a CMA history in Taiwan from 50's to 60's.

> Many of GM Han's studens such as Adam Hsu, Lian Jee_Tz (GM Han's son in law)
> went to learn from Lu Yuan_Chao. Did GM Han knew about? What did GM Han
> feeli about it?
I'm not quite sure. But, I don't think GM Han knew it because he had two strokes at that time. He was not active anymore when that happened. And, I think most of his senior students did not dare to tell him for his health reason.

There are more history in this incident. I don't want to say too much. It will hurt too many people in this country that learn from them. Many someday we'll meet and I can tell you all the details.

> I knew Wei Shao-Tang hated it very much (some of GM Han's
> students were also Wei's students).
Actually, most of the people from Sang Dong hated it. What do you think people like lian Jee-Tz, Adam Hsu, and Su Yu-Zhang had to come to this country to teach in the first place?

onyomi

01-31-2006, 02:32 AM

I'm not Zhou himself. I'm just a student of his who doesn't like people who have never met him calling him a fraud without backing up their accusations. You don't respond to my questions about how you know Zhou's PM is bad; you just repeat over and over that he's not in your LF family (I never claimed he was--Zhou's primary teachers were Wang and his students, not Han and his students). You can't actually point me to anything he says on his website that is incorrect or proves his knowledge is poor. You're basing your accusations on completely insubstantial things like, "his website looks flashy" and "I've never heard my teacher mention him." Is it strange that a student would defend his teacher against such poorly-reasoned slander?

bokfu

02-01-2006, 08:26 PM

youknowwho...

In reply to your post regarding Grandmaster Wei not liking students to go learn from GM Liu at Wutang, GM Wei did not mind much at all. Mr. Vincent Chen, his number one student went to Wutang by invitation of Adam Hsu and this did not bother Grandmaster Wei. Grandmaster Wei just stated " took long time to teach a good student and left to the other school" but never got angry about this. Mr. Chen soon returned with respect and stayed with Grandmaster Wei. The thing that bothered GM Wei was the fact that Adam Hsu had come to him with his resume asking to be a formal student... note: formal student. He then left with no respect going to Grandmaster Liu's school and got Mr. Chen to go with him. This of course was a big insult to GM Wei.

Grandmaster Wei stated to his true students " If there is a good teacher, I will introduce you to his school. A lot of my students went to the other school and came back later. The real good teacher never worry about lost student." There were several times that Grandmaster Wei introduced his students personally to other teachers whom he thought were exceptional. Grandmaster Wei certainly had a better outlook and more open mind than some teachers... Grandmaster Wei just wanted his students to learn good gong fu whether from him or others. The majority of his students stayed loyal to the end but some took time to learn some other styles. They all came back after experiencing other styles such as Xing I and Bagua etc.. This training just made them better martial artists overall. So now you know the rest of the story.

Bokfu

Tim Pugh

11-27-2006, 10:16 PM

does anybody have any info about entwining (coiling) dragon staff set or plum blossom sword sets from the wang song ting/master gao linage?

Hi Zep,

What kind of information are you looking for? I learned both forms from Gao Daosheng about 25 years ago.

Tim

RAF

11-29-2006, 05:22 AM

About 3 or 4 years ago, Vincent Chen came to the tournament we hold here in Akron. He and Su Yu Zhang are very, very tight. Su conducted a seminar on Pai An and Vincent Chen helped work with the participants. Vincent Chen, during the Masters' Demonstration, gave one of the best performances of xiny yi I have ever seen.

I've also have seen him in one of the Japanese magazines a couple of years back doing some of the bagua that Liu Yun Qiao taught. It was in the edition that highlighted Su Yu Zhang.

Its my understanding that Wei Xiao Tang and Liu Yun Qiao got along quite well.

Liu often sent his students (okay my teacher Tony Yang can't speak for others) to learn from others.

Its is also my understanding that Leung had already left Taiwan and was practicing dentistry in the Phillipines when Liu visited and gave a performance but I am not sure of how that all evolved.