For those of you that think kung fu is useless

[Enforcer-]

I mean from all the ifnormation I read and stories I read kung fu was used for hundreds of years in fights like lei tai and against bandits. If it was always useless than why did it not die out? If it was ineffective and everyone started brawling like in the early ufcs or started ground fighting than how were bandits indimidated by it and how were villages protected from bandits? Or are all those stories lying and even though tai chi and some other styles were documented to have eben created for this reason it is all false? And noone found out these styles don't work and continued to practise them and teach them in ineffective ways (according to mma people)? I'm just trying to understand if kung fu is so useless than why did it survive for so long in such hard times?. I mean I can't find one descent sparring clip of one pure style utilizing movements from the forms and not kickboxing type footwork/stance. The best kung fu ive seen are in some shaw brother movies.

[EarthDragon]

In a nut shell?
it's because people havent put enough time into thier training to make it combat effective.

If a student spends as much time training as they do watching TV or playing video games then they would be able to perform the techniques they know at a level that would be worthy of the life or death situations that occured in those times.

If and when it came time to defend your life and you could rely on only the techniques that you have mastered, how many techniques would you have?????? would it even be one? and be honest with yourself.

Years ago met a guy named taifu whom was half chinese, half italian and lived in a temple near mongolia. He was teaching us various things when I asked how much time he spent in meditation to which he replied I am always in meditation whether moving, sitting or sleeping.
however when I began I would sit for usually 8 to 10 hours a day.
So I thought how about how much time I spent sitting which on a good day lasted sometimes an hour. It was then I realized if I spent the next 20 years sitting I would still not be close to the level of skill this man obtained.

So If I made the assumption based on my limited experience that meditation could not bring you to clairity of mind I would be speaking purley out of ignorance, as do those who say kung fu is ineffective....................................... .............be well

[Suntzu]

The best kung fu ive seen are in some shaw brother movies. :confused:

honestly...... how many people have seen kung fu of the "good old days"?.... i mean dark alley "give me your money or your life" kung fu..... what did it look like?.... how was it taught?..... how many hours did they train?..... how many students were seriously hurt during training?...... how many schools were sued into purgatory by some whiny soccor mom whose son got a bloody nose?....

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

In the "old" days it was more a matter of show me I can beat you and I may let you live or just destroy your school your face and rep.

Lei tai is just free fight, and likely the reason it "triumphed "over shaolin" ( ???!!!) and if you say you've read it I believe you, is because true blue shaolin practitioners practice their gongfu ( as opposed to purpose to fight, even in regard to sparring during training) ,as part of their whole-hearted belief system. That is not something that time nor hardship will ever quell!

amitopho and happy travels.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
I mean from all the ifnormation I read and stories I read kung fu was used for hundreds of years in fights like lei tai and against bandits. If it was always useless than why did it not die out?

that's not an indication of effectiveness. People train for various reasons. As long as the art was passed to at least one person who was willing to teach, the art would have survived. Why people decided to study under the person is not standard. I mean, look at the rep that styles like chung moo do get and they are still going strong. They have something that at least some of the population is interested in, apparently.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
amitopho and happy travels. Since when does Ego use Buddhist salutations?

[MasterKiller]

If it was always useless than why did it not die out?
http://chinwan.com.ar/ross1.htm

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Since when does Ego use Buddhist salutations?

since he started the bl hook up apparently .

can't fvck with good sense and wisdoms

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
since he started the bl hook up apparently .

can't fvck with good sense and wisdoms Way to practice unattachment, BL. :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
In a nut shell?
it's because people havent put enough time into thier training to make it combat effective.

If a student spends as much time training as they do watching TV or playing video games then they would be able to perform the techniques they know at a level that would be worthy of the life or death situations that occured in those times.

1. no they wouldn't.
2. some of that onus belongs to the teacher - the format and the training methods they use. what goes through people's minds when they think about thai boxing training? What goes through their mind when they think of TMA? why?

If and when it came time to defend your life and you could rely on only the techniques that you have mastered, how many techniques would you have?????? would it even be one? and be honest with yourself.

fortunately, that's not the case. you don't have to have techniques mastered in order to use them. you only need to be proficient in using them, and they must be ingrained reflex.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Way to practice unattachment, BL. :rolleyes:

that's de tatchment Mr.Oh so Pedantic , and still just Ego!

btw : nice post seven star

[MasterKiller]

Obviously, you missed my point.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Do you honestly believe that people practiced a system of life saving street fighting that in any way was as complex and intricate and stylized as the form you're doing today?

You're nuts.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

mk:- who's missing whose??


st:- times have changed and when your gongfu is your belief system expressing itself, so does the manner and capacity in which you ( or observers ) see it.

I think we've already established the differences in todays gongfu to way back, but one does do ones best to perpertuate and utilise as need presents. Some gongfu is for no more than school!! :eek: ;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

st:- times have changed and when your gongfu is your belief system expressing itself, so does the manner and capacity in which you ( or observers ) see it.

English. Do you speak it?

[SevenStar]

mystical legends, closed door students, etc... I think this was brought on itself over time. It goes deeper than just "students not practicing enough"

[Meat Shake]

"closed door students, "

...
Technically right now I am a closed door student. This simply means that my instructor wants to only train with myself and gene until we move into a karate studio to share space.

[EarthDragon]

delibandit,
you made a great point , true masters are few and far between. I had to ask to be taught for 5 years from my shrfu and for 5 years he declined.
Then in the 6th year he said OK. I sold my car quit my job of 7 years and moved 3,000 miles away from home.

meat shake, LOL if you are a closed door diciple you wouldnt know it, your shrfu wouldnt tell you. that stastement cracked me up!!!!!!!

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by delibandit
I've met the real thing and it changed my mind completely. The real guys are tough. When you meet the real deal, it blows your mind.


An honest question here... where does one find the 'real deal'?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by delibandit
Well, atually closed door students, or diciples, go through a baishi ceremony. So they know about it. It just means that the teacher treats the student like a son. The teacher expects a higher lever of moral conduct and expects the student to carry on the traditions and the art. So the teacher takes more interest and care in his progress.

As someone who has Baai Si'ed, and knows others who have in very traditional Muhn Pai.... I HAVE TO ASK....

Where do you get this stuff.... my ribs hurt from laughing



The teacher expects a higher lever of moral conduct


I guess that excludes the baai si done by bang pai teachers....:rolleyes:

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
delibandit,
you made a great point , true masters are few and far between. I had to ask to be taught for 5 years from my shrfu and for 5 years he declined.
Then in the 6th year he said OK. I sold my car quit my job of 7 years and moved 3,000 miles away from home.

meat shake, LOL if you are a closed door diciple you wouldnt know it, your shrfu wouldnt tell you. that stastement cracked me up!!!!!!!

Technically "closed door" simply means an instructor is no longer accepting students, or "The school door is closed".
I dont buy into all the hokey pokey mystical kung fu BS. "Id rather keep a couple of closed door students on a higher level of training for the next couple months until we move to the new school than try and take on a new group of students". That is all I need, I dont care about a ceremony and I dont think Im some sort of special gift. Im just one of the only people kirk feels like training with until they move or until WD appears again... Havent seen or heard from the guy since he moved here.

I never said disciple, I said student. Disciple will follow a teacher to learn. Im moving across the country from my instructor in 2 months.

[lkfmdc]

Yes, today, in modern times, everyone loves to sugar coat reality and sell the "wise scholar" martial arts fairy tale..... then there is the truth....

Do you even know what "bang pai" means?

My own teacher had a temper that made us have to flip coins to see who would ask him for the next application. He was "old" and thus "nice" by the time we met him, he had hospitalized a lot of students back in China, killed one.... :eek:

I've met quite a few skilled TCMA fighters, most I wouldn't turn my back on, for fear of being stabbed...

They guys I hang out with in SF were the guys who collected over due debts for a certain "organization", a few had spent time in both Chinese and US prisons....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by delibandit
Mystical legends etc. Well, some of it is embellished, but often there is a Kernel of truth in some of the stories.

right, but how small is that one kernel...

Closed door students are the one's chosen to pass on the art. It simply means that they are held to a higher standard than other students.

yeah, I know that. I think that contributes to it. when you have students that are learning material that others are not, then they system becomes segmented. If I'm neither a disciple nor a closed door student and I eventually teach the system...

You can doubt real gongfu all you want. I've met the real thing and it changed my mind completely. The real guys are tough. When you meet the real deal, it blows your mind.

I've met real guys. they are fine and good, but how far apart are they? I've met dr. yang jwing ming and he's awesome, but how many taiji players are at his level? how many will ever be? it's like searching for a needle in a haystack.

A lot CMA schools in America are not the real deal. If you are fortunate enough to meet a real Chinese gongfu master, you too will know and see things differently. It is a dying art. True CMA requires skill, which most do not possess in this day and age.

so where is the disconnect? these masters should be producing masters, should they not? Not every great thai fighter produces thai boxing champs, but they will produce efficient fighters. What has changed with cma between back then and now?

My teacher is an amazing martial artist, I can only hope to be one tenth as good someday. In Beijing, some of our group members, Lu Shengli and Zhao Zeren are feared and respected. And they are in their fifties.

that's always a fortunate thing. One of my judo coaches is 75 and still tapping young guys.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon


I had to ask to be taught for 5 years from my shrfu and for 5 years he declined.
Then in the 6th year he said OK.

meat shake, LOL if you are a closed door diciple you wouldnt know it, your shrfu wouldnt tell you. that stastement cracked me up!!!!!!!

see, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Im just one of the only people kirk feels like training with until they move or until WD appears again... Havent seen or heard from the guy since he moved here.


isn't he supposed to be fighting this month?

[Meat Shake]

"LOL if you are a closed door diciple you wouldnt know it, your shrfu wouldnt tell you."

"Well, atually closed door students, or diciples, go through a baishi ceremony. So they know about it"


:rolleyes:

7* - As coach ross pointed out, the overwhelming majority of kung fu schools in america simply do not train in a way cohesive to fighting. Too many have subscribed to the thought process of "sport fighting does not translate to the street" when in actually... Well, I dont need to go there. Instead of constantly making excuses, I do not understand why schools do not train in a more "sportized" format and simply train the "deadly" and "maiming" techniques in the same way they normally would. Chin Na = not deadly or maiming if trained correctly and responsibly. Throwing = Not deadly or maiming if trained correctly and responsibly. Punching and kicking = not deadly or maiming if trained correctly and responsibly. Even throat strikes arent deadly as long as you dont drop them at full power, and it lets you know when and where the opprotunity will arise for its use. Any punch to the eye means that a simple change of fist coule have meant an eye gouge.
Part of it may have to due with the fact that a majority of practitioners are in it for health or hobby, or it may have to due with the fact that many instructors cannot or will not afford the insurance for full contact fighting, and there is a possibility that many instructors fear losing students from pushing them past their normal comfort zones. In any case, a full contact class should at least be optional in any school, or it cannot be trained to a high level of competency.
Learning how to fight with more finesse and less strength requires *gasp* fighting. How else do you expect to learn the subleties and micromovements needed to successfully use a majority of your techniques? How else do you plan on learning how most people will respond to an attempted technique and how to counter and/or follow up? More importantly, how do you plan on being able to use your style with no strength against a resisting opponent at age 69 when you have never really felt the way another angry or aggressive human being moves?
Fear not my kung fu brothers! Fighting in a ring or having an open mind to go have friendly sparring ventures with people of other styles will not *******ize your kung fu style, it will only make it better. ;)

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by SevenStar
isn't he supposed to be fighting this month?

I dont know... The tournament was last weekend. Hope everything is going well for him, hopefully I can meet and train with WD before I move. I have not spoken with him since he moved down here.

[Enforcer-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that's not an indication of effectiveness. People train for various reasons. As long as the art was passed to at least one person who was willing to teach, the art would have survived. Why people decided to study under the person is not standard. I mean, look at the rep that styles like chung moo do get and they are still going strong. They have something that at least some of the population is interested in, apparently.

than why you hear stories that the only way a teacher could open up a new school was to defeat all the other local fighters on a lei tai platform in the town or defeat the opposing teachers? And why were martial artists so feared by the communists that they were persecuted? Why ere they so valued by society that the communists persecuted them if all they did was revert to kickboxing everytime they fought?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i once heard a story about a guy who learned to **** diamonds from a magic giraffe, but that doesn't make it true.

[Enforcer-]

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1097191421

[Serpent]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
He was "old" and thus "nice" by the time we met him, he had hospitalized a lot of students back in China, killed one.... :eek:

Are you serious? What's the story behind that?

[Serpent]

.

[Serpent]

I'll delete my post if you delete yours. Let me know! ;)

[Meat Shake]

Earth Dragon - No hard feelings. I wasnt offended, just a little irate due to miscommunication.

[EarthDragon]

serpent,
very good! my post has been deleted thank you for your consideration when deleintg yours.

meatshake, no problem sorry again.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
serpent,
very good! my post has been deleted thank you for your consideration when deleintg yours.

meatshake, no problem sorry again.
No worries - will do. Of course, you need to edit the previous post too and delete the bit where you mentioned it originally. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by delibandit


MMA is indeed effective. It is relatively easy to learn in concept and readily applicable. This not to say that training and conditioning aren't involved, but to an extent, less is needed to be effective. That is to say, someone can become an effective fighter within a relatively short time.

The difference here is whether one merely wants to be effective or whether one wants to develop high-level skill that is not just effective, but is most efficient and relies less on brute strength and more on refined skill. You are either deluded, misinformed, or both if you think MMA fighters cannot develop high level, efficient skill that does not rely on strength.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Here here!!

[Dark Knight]

But when 70 year old little man can soundly beat a younger, faster, and much stronger opponent, it can be attributed to nothing less than high-level skill. Of course a gun always helps, but that's a different argument. :P

Skill can oversome strength, I am not 70 but have beaten stronger younger guys because I have a higher skill. Its not a difficult concept, most instructors can beat their lower level students.

But when skills are similar then strength and stanima becomes more important. A good big man will beat a good small man.

You have to develop both external and internal strengths.

Put on the gloves and start sparring a lot, experience is a great teacher.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Dark Knight

But when skills are similar then strength and stanima becomes more important. A good big man will beat a good small man.

You have to develop both external and internal strengths.

Put on the gloves and start sparring a lot, experience is a great teacher.

the above seized the correct by the neck, punched it until it rolled over and then choked it until it was motionless :D

[Judge Pen]

You're right, I don't understand the difference between internal and external. Is there a difference? Shouldn't you wind up in the same place: skill, timing, proper body mechanics, sensitivity, power practicing either art? The way one trains in internal v external may be different but the end goal is the same--martial skill.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by delibandit
You don't really understand internal gong fu. Fighting is good for developing a sense of timing etc., I'll give you that. Even for internal practicioners But internal gong fu is different. Internal gong fu trounces external even when the external gong fu is of an equal level. It's more sophisticated.

A lot of external guys have never met the real thing when it comes to internal. So they have no idea. They always think hard wins, because it is their experience. But soft conquers hard you just have never witnessed it.

only to be so quickly followed by a la la land post :rolleyes:

[Dark Knight]

Deli, my quote of a good big man defeating a good small man comes from Sifu john Allen of Green Dragon Studios, he teaches many internal and external strengthening programs. He may not be the end all of Kung Fu but he is well respected on his knowledge.

My opinion on fighting comes from over 25 years in the martial arts studying many styles, fighting hundreds of people thousands of times.

I have been on both ends of a good beating and understand the importance of strength and skill.

[EarthDragon]

delibandit,
I totaly agree with you %100.................... many people on here may not have taken the time to understand what it is you are explaining.
Others here like ikfmdc AKA "monkey nuts" thinks that punching or chocking a guy unconscious is the only way to measure his manhood or lack of it, not sure.

But while some may genuinely be ignorant of what you are explaining others are just not into the art of the art, just the martial. They have no deeper concepts or knowledge. they will however remain low level, or possibly with years to come the may slightly grasp the most basic concepts........... punching and kicking.............

[lkfmdc]

Let's look at Earth Dragon's ONLY FIGHTER

Joel Sutton
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=107

Joel Sutton
Record 2 wins and 4 losses
loss to Elias Rodrigues by punches
loss to Waldir dos Anjos by TKO (corner threw in the towel)
loss to Brad Kohler by TKO (again, corner threw in the towel)

yeah, be proud of your ONLY fighter, Joel Sutton

[lkfmdc]

yes, the old, "if it hadn't been for those 10 punches to my face, I wold have demonstrated my advanced internal and used movement #27"

yeah, sure, :rolleyes:

so, there are these deadly, super advanced internal based fighters out there, we just don't see them ever, are the invisible maybe? A result of having too much Chi.....

:o

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
so, there are these deadly, super advanced internal based fighters out there, we just don't see them ever, are the invisible maybe? A result of having too much Chi.....


They're so highly devolped, internally that they not only have lost any need to prove themselves, the manifestation of their internal training keeps them away from places and situations where they would have to use their power so as to keep mankind safe.

::grin::

[Meat Shake]

"so, there are these deadly, super advanced internal based fighters out there, we just don't see them ever, are the invisible maybe? A result of having too much Chi....."

Nah dude... Havent you seen powder? They always go running naked through the rain only to disappear in a beautiful blue explosion of chi.

Ive met internal teachers with extremely high levels of skill, and had them tell me "Wow, shuai chiao eh? I really respect what you guys do. Its great stuff."
:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

time to drop all five elements and a San Ti on these cats :D

what I consistently find amusing is people posting whose entire knowledge base is the package that their teacher feeds them. They never look outside the box, at the real world around them

I don't feel like re-typing pages, but all you have to do is go out and get a copy of Sun Lu Tang's Hsing Yi book, the English edition. Read the foreword....

The entire "external" vs "internal" thing is a farse, a fabrication, and one not even well thought out. In fact, Sun Lu Tang and his associates tried to abandon the term in their life time....

The "precious secrets" that so called internal people think is their domain, isn't... sorry....

Whatever they think only internal people can do, any skilled TCMA can do. The BS about "external" is tired and played out...

Furthermore, you'll even find those "precious secrets" in Judo, Jujitsu, and GASP.... wrestling....

Just the above mentioned arts address those points in straight forward common sense terminology, they don't bury it in obscure, cool sounding esotericisms

[EarthDragon]

ikfmdc aka monkey nuts!
dude you conterdict yourself in almost every post you make..........

you said.............what I consistently find amusing is people posting whose entire knowledge base is the package that their teacher feeds them. They never look outside the box, at the real world around them

then in the same post actually the very next line you come back to say......
I don't feel like re-typing pages, but all you have to do is go out and get a copy of Sun Lu Tang's Hsing Yi book, the English edition. Read the foreword....

So what I find amusing is that you critisize people for listening to thier teachers but your get your information from a book!!!!!!

by the way why dont you have any pictures of your fat A$$ in the ring?

[EarthDragon]

delibandit,
dont waste your time talking to ikfmdc aka monkey nuts.

I got 3 PM from people about this loser. He and i got into it and to back up what he says he posted of other guys fighting in the ring in the minor leagues.

he has no formal training but yet posts on the kung fu forum every day *#@**&@#* and talks about how good he is then posts a picture standing next to a teenage kid with his fat gut sticking out, then says yea I was 20 lbs heavier in the pic but im in shape now.. when actually he is the right weight he's just full of s hit.,.........

[lkfmdc]

I don't contradict myself at all, you are just so desperate to find ANYTHING that you'll jump at the lamest of things

The book is just ONE EXAMPLE, and a good one, because everyone knows who Sun Lu Tang is, and he was a major contributor to making the term popular

Maybe you and Deli boy don't know who he is? :rolleyes:

But all you had to do was look at the paragraph BELOW it to see more, to see that in the 26 years or so I've been doing this I've seen the so called "precious secrets" of so called "internal" only to know well that they aren't even unique to TCMA

I guess neither you nor Deli can read, so that was my mistake

Want to see pics of me fighting? Common logic would indicate a few things dude

1) The discussion was on the best way to TRAIN someone to fight...

Thus, my students, who I trained, are the best example of how the method I use is SUCCESSFUL

but that's logic, so it may escape you :rolleyes:

2) Related to the first, so read slowly and see if you grasp it, is the idea that I've trained MANY people to fight, not just ONE.... and my guys all have winning records. Your boy has lost twice as many as he has won

3) But if you insist, I can show you evidence of when I fought, all you have to do is put up your pics first.....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
he has no formal training Are you insane?

[lkfmdc]

Like I said, pure desperation and complete disconnection from reality


Originally posted by EarthDragon

to back up what he says he posted of other guys fighting in the ring in the minor leagues.

he has no formal training



Dude, do you realize how stupid you make yourself out to be?

It is WELL ESTABLISHED not only who I am but also the success of my gym...

"minor leagues"? K-1 MAX is minor league? Shooto is minor league?

As compated to being in Baffalo? LMFAO

I have TONS of fighters, you have ONE GUY who has lost twice as many as he has won

As for my training, dude, you really make yourself look retarded. It is well established that I am an in-door disciple of one of the world's most famous TCMA masters.

My Baai Si witness was Frank Yee.

You're the pathetic loser with no credentials... and every post just proves it again and again

[EarthDragon]

sorry.............. is monkey nuts ranting again? why do you insist on posting on the kung fu board if all you do is put down kung fu ? isnt thier some kav maga site you can spill your BS onto?
I mean really, go train or something

[EarthDragon]

It is well established that I am an in-door disciple of one of the world's most famous TCMA masters.

Then you are a shame to your learning your art and your shrfu. you should be embarrassed to admitt that seeing as how you only put dowm TCMA. Now go to your room

[lkfmdc]

MK,

Yes, clearly he is insane. It's sad, but there is no other possible explanation for it. Even more troubling, it's a mental illness all too common here.....


Earth Dragon,
You are an idiot, and the more you post the more you demonstrate it beyond a shadow of a doubt. These last few posts show just how dis-connected from reality you really are. Do you have ANY IDEA at all who I am?

[lkfmdc]

Before you go telling people to go to their room, let's deal with your well advanced mental illness....

[EarthDragon]

I really dont care who you are! if your so big and bad come up to kwoon and fight me tough guy!

this is a official challenge......................................... . Im just a couple hours away, so no excuses im at 2811 elmwood ave in buffalo 716 876-8100 let me know when you are comming, no gloves, mouth piece and cup. loser taps winer gets respect!
Ill pay for the gas!

dont bother to respond if your not comming, no excuses, no stories, no BS

[Meat Shake]

Someone had better be planning on taping this....

[lkfmdc]

Dude, you're in the middle of no where, Buffalo, you might as well challenge me from a satellite circling the planet....

Your pathetic, and your posts just prove the point increasingly with each one

If you want to come to a real city, ie Manhattan, everyone knows where I am

NYKK Gym
336 W 37th Street
New York NY 10018

Though frankly, you wouldn't be worth the time.... I have a show coming up on Nov 6th, if you send me your stats I'll match you up with one of my students....

Continue your blah blah, it just shows people what an idiot you are

[Meat Shake]

"Can you say that your skill level has exceeded that of your master? I realize he has recently passed. But if you were faced with his skill, would you prevail?"

What relevance does this have?

[EarthDragon]

whats that monkey nuts an excuse????????? i'm 4 hours away not int he middle of nowhere.......... and i will pay for your gas, you can even stay at my house.


whats up?????????????????????????????????????

[EarthDragon]

yea I thought so, back up what you say! or shut up

final chance

[lkfmdc]

By the way, just for those who don't realize what a geek "Earth Dragon" is....

He drops his challenge with a corny line like "Im just a couple hours away"

He is 397.7 miles and 7 hours away from me....

tough guy :rolleyes:

Ceasar offered me $12,000 to fight in Japan, and fronted me $3000 fro training costs.... what are you gonna do? Offer me a warm beer?

[lkfmdc]

"4 hours away"

man can't even use Yahoo.....

you come to me, your turn....

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by lkfmdc


yeah, sure, :rolleyes:

so, there are these deadly, super advanced internal based fighters out there, we just don't see them ever, are the invisible maybe? A result of having too much Chi.....

:o [/B]

From http://www.nykkgym.com/nyk/kungfu.html


Lama Kung Fu

Lama Kung Fu is a very complete system which combines Mongolian wrestling (Shuai-Jiao), Kahm-Na (seizing and controlling skill), Northern and Western Chinese long arm and kicking techniques, and Tibetan and Indian close range hand techniques and evasive footwork. It is a martial art system in which self-defense is stressed.

What will I learn?
Hand Forms, Weapons, Chi-Kung, Self-Defense, Sparring, Animal Techniques, Joint Locking, Wrestling Techniques

(Bolding is mine)

Hmmmm........me thinks someone wants to have their cake and eat it too.......:D :D

[EarthDragon]

bwak bwak bwak, goes the chicken.........ok then 7 hours if you drive really, realy slow and dont take route 17 through the pocono's, is that too far to back up what you have spewed out here?

[lkfmdc]

Ai Lek,
I have taught people to stretch their hamstrings also, but I don't think it makes them deadly fighters. Try at least to come up with some sort of logical response. If all we wanted was nutty loons with advanced mental dis-orders, we've got Earth Dragon

So, like I said, a guy drops a "challenge" to come 397 miles, 7 hours away, he'll pay for my gas LMFAO :rolleyes:

I'm sure as I type, he's feverishly typing what he considers to be a "brilliant" resonse

If he tells me how much he weighs, he can fight one of my students, most need an easy fight after winning so many titles

[lkfmdc]

We back up what we do all the time, in San Da, in kickboxing, in Muay Thai, in boxing, in submission grappling and in MMA.... We are the ones actively fighting and running a fighting gym.

You are the one having a mental break down because you can't stand what I'm saying

If it's so important to you, and isn't so far, you come here....

How much do you weigh? Is there a problem with revealing your stats? I've got guys in virtually every weight class for you....

Or you can just keep rambling on :rolleyes:

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Ai Lek,
I have taught people to stretch their hamstrings also, but I don't think it makes them deadly fighters. Try at least to come up with some sort of logical response.

What's not logical? You teach Chi Gung as part of a fighting system (ie lama kung fu) and then you lambast kung fu styles with Chi Gung training.

Don't you see a bit of hypocrisy there?

As to the challenge:

I think that's fair for you to pick one of your fighters for him to challenge......just....as long as YOU have to fight a student of his choosing. :D ;)

Again....as not to be hypocritical.

[EarthDragon]

actcually I challenged you declined........ but anyways it was fun while it lasted go to go to work now.
but keep up the good work no hard feelings... peace

[lkfmdc]

Ai Lek,
Why do you play dense? I've read some of your posts, and you aren't dense....

I ciriticize people who think there is a magical combat application to Chi. Chi Kung, like yoga, like plain old stretching, has benefits, but we don't teach you that if you learn some Chi Kung you are some superior fighter

To the drooling sociopath known as Earth Dragon, your posts speak for themselves, as mine clearly as well.

While the forum was upset to here no outcome to my match with Maoshan, you can read what Black Taoist posted about it.

Black Taoist clearly stated that a fight occured and that there were no issues. They called in advance, we agreed to a time, they showed up and we did it.

That makes Maoshan and I some of the only people on this forum who it can be verified have accepted real challenges.

But that's logic, and you've already proved you can't grasp logic

[lkfmdc]

you guys are already "experts" on me, so figure it out...

hint; I don't do Choy Lay Fut.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon

he has no formal training

ROFL!!! What is your definition of formal training?!

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]Ai Lek,
Why do you play dense? I've read some of your posts, and you aren't dense....

I ciriticize people who think there is a magical combat application to Chi. Chi Kung, like yoga, like plain old stretching, has benefits, but we don't teach you that if you learn some Chi Kung you are some superior fighter

Who teaches that way? There are Charlatans out there, sure, but is it fair to pigeon hole all fof TCMA like that?

I think most teachers see Chi Gung as you do....as an adjunct to their traditional kung fu training.

Anyways, I think you are being hypocritical.

On one hand you rail against traditional kung fu.

On the other hand you draw from its methods and claim lineage in it.

It kind of reminds me of Bruce Lee.

He railed against traditional kung fu said it was a "classical mess."

However, the backbone of what became Jeet Kune Do was traditional Wing Chun.

I don't think he could have created Jeet Kune Do w/o his Wing Chun.

Similarily, you rail against Kung Fu and say how San Da is so much better, however, I'd bet the majority of your San Da "material" is drawn from your kung fu back ground.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(Which I'm sure you will anyways.....;) )

[lkfmdc]

I'm not hard to follow if you actually read what I write

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=33183
for example

As for the Chi comment, it is in CONTEXT, when delibandit talks about how super special internal is as opposed to external, I call BS, which is what it is......

It isn't hypocritical to say "brush knee twist step works, but ONLY if you practice it a certain way"

It isn't hypocritical to say that what people are calling "traditional" in this country is mostly crap and that they are disconnected about the reality of what TCMA used to be about and what it really was

People always bring up my teacher, Chan Tai San, as if I might, GASP, offend him. Where do you think I learned most of this from? Chan Tai San called them as they were and was highly critical of the mess called "Chinese martial art" in this country

[lkfmdc]

other than people being upset that I might, GASP, tell them something, or, AKA, my "attitude", seems people have very little to say about the substance of my comments....

The is nothing wrong with the techniques in TCMA, in fact, San Da people use them effectively all the time!

The problem is that the training methods commonly used do not develop the (pay attention now) effective delivery system

It is like having a really big bullet that explodes and destroys everything, but no gun to shoot it with

It is like having all the parts that make up a computer, but spread out in a pile on the floor

It's like having the instruction manual to putting those pieces together, but in a language you don't speak or understand

Some folks sure can fight that have done it the "traditional way"

they are the EXCEPTION not the rule

I trained in TCMA starting at age 8. By the time I was a teenager I had 3/4 of a traditional system completed. At the advanced stages of my training, I dropped out of college to train 6 days a week, 10 to 14 hours each day

If you think that anyone in the average school today approaches that sort of training, you're nuts.....

If you think that people all fight exactly the same way in every part of the world during every historical period, you are fooling yourself

Classic and most relevant example to this BBS, is the Chinese martial art obsession with bridging. So much traditional Chinese martial art (particularly southern) pre-supposes certain attacks and tactics. The applications work based upon what the common fighter in China 60 years ago did, which isn't what the average US person does in 2004

Think about how much TCMA is based around the following

you block
they use their other hand to clear (Haut Sau) to strike again
you defelect, BUT they "stick"

Sorry, but people don't fight that way for the most part any more

Sorry, but if you are living in the US in 2004, you are more likely to be attacked in patterns more closely resembling boxing and wrestling

You do realize that Japanese police train differently than US police? Japan is a knife culture, and much Japanese training revolves around their uses of knives and blades....

Another example, in Europe there is still the ever present HEAD BUTT!

It is not such a popular American tactic, but it remains very popular in Europe to this very day

It is also popular in Korea, though not in Japan! Read Japanese accounts about how surprised Japanese military men where when they occupied Korea, and found out that many of the peasants would head butt them

Actually, the initial Japanese respone initially based upon a knife culture, was to grab the wrists of an unruly Korean. The Koreans of course still were able the head butt.... it required a change in the SOP for japanese stationed in Korea


I can see (easily) modern application in staff, knife (including variations like butterfly sword), broadsword, etc.... but in a Gihk? A nine ring dragon lance? Furthermore, as someone who did a PILE of weapons sets, much of the so called "advanced weaponry" is strongly based upon more basic movement. Every long weapon is based upon staff. A blade or a hook only make for so much variation...

I don't see much direct coralation between a Gim/straight sword and any modren weapon. If you want to knife fight, you can not use those strategies (ie GIm ones). The distances and flow are different. Chain whip? The most practical stuff is stuff you don't need to learn the forms to do! It's instinctive. No one is going to roll in a circle on the floor, swinging the chain between their legs in a fight in NYC in 2004.....

Adam Hsu noted long ago how weapons fighting was pretty much a dead art, he also correctly pointed out the many flaws in two man sets, mostly being that in order for the set to flow and be longer than 10 seconds, you ended up teaching mistakes, not actual techniques.....

I've told several times the story of my weapon sparring with other "top students" of "famous masters" and the very disappointing (for them) results...

Chan Tai San had actually fought with many of the weapons he taught and passed that along to us. That being said, my ability to fight off a spear with a hook sword and shield has never been used, nor will it likely ever be by me or anyone who I could teach it to

My sifu used to go "clang clang clang" when he watched two man weapon sets. He taught us a few, with explicit discusion they were for shows. "clang clang clang" meant all the blocking going on.... all the failed attacks and more importantly all the faild defenses

Spear vs broadsword

You stab at me with spear, I "block" with the blad across my face almost like a windshield wiper.....

you pul back the spear and on it goes

The REAL application is to attack the hand holding the spear with the sword and thus disarm you, then slice, slice again, I go home and eat my roast pork

Block, grab and slice, you see it all the time, usually a slice at head level that the spear holder can duck under.....

The way we were taught the same movement, a common one, was to cut entirely differently ... a way you can not avoid the cut, unless you drop the spear and step back.....

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]It isn't hypocritical to say that what people are calling "traditional" in this country is mostly crap and that they are disconnected about the reality of what TCMA used to be about and what it really was

So what was it REALLY about? Your attitude that you and your teacher are the ONLY one's that know what it is and was REALLY ABOUT just comes off as arrogant.

You sound just as bad as those "mystical" people you rail against who claim that there method is the "only true" system.

What did TCMA do before the invention of modern San Da?

You are saying that no one had a system to "deliver the big bullet?"

I find that hard to stomach and from my own experience I know it is not true.

As I have contended from the beginning San Da/Kickboxing is a great way to train certain techniques, timing, how to take a hit, etc. but there exist more efficient methods for self-defense that cannot be trained in that format without being modified.

The "delivery system" for those techniques has to be more inventive than simply putting on some padding and going at it.

For example, in self-defense situation a palm strike to the head is often a better option than a closed fist to the head. If for no other reason than you stand less of chance of breaking your own hand. But in addition because you can deliver more of a pin pointed strike to anatomy (ie under the chin)

In San Da format the fist and wrist are taped and stuffed in padded gloved. Now you can't really do palm strikes because you have a glove on and in addition you won't break your hand because its taped and gloved. So San Da is great to train closed fist techniques (ie hook, cross, roundhouse, uppercut, etc) for the ring but bad way to train palm strikes for the street.

For that you have to go back to the old school two man drills, coreographed forms, etc. OR do old school San Shou. Some weight lifting gloves, cup and mouthguard and hope you can trust your partner enough not to knock out your teeth.

You see my point?
;)

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
So what was it REALLY about? Your attitude that you and your teacher are the ONLY one's that know what it is



Obviously, you see what you want to see. There's no point in even discussing things with you, because you will read into it whatever you WANT to see....

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

I'm trying to have a rational discussion.

Are you going to address my example or do you concede that my point is valid?

Thanks

Eric

[lkfmdc]

I've written the same thing thousands of times, I figure you'll either read them and get it or not, I'm getting tired of repeating myself

I never said we were the ONLY ones, I said there is a lot of crap being done under the TCMA banner

You can argue that point with me if you want, you won't change my mind. When a well known teacher told me, in Cantonese, that he was teaching crap because "lo faan" don't know any better anyway

I've said it before, all you have to do is READ, a select few can learn to fight in a TCMA format, but the statistics are against them

Those that did learn, spent a considerable amount of time training, most from childhood, most to the exclusion of other life pursuits

I've written that 1000 times, this is 1001...

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

I'll take it from your refusal to address my example that you concede that point as valid.

Thank you for playing......
;)

[Meat Shake]

" but there exist more efficient methods for self-defense that cannot be trained in that format without being modified. "

Exactly... so modify them. No ones saying you have to fight San Da to be effective, just that you have to fight. Here in san antonio we train with 4oz gloves because the fingerless gloves are more realistic. Occasionally we will train with boxing gloves, but for the most part its the 4ozers. Pretty much any technique goes with those, we just dont use specialized punches or fishhooks. I get hit in the throat and neck regularly, and thrown on my head twice as much. I dont buy into "deadly techniques". The only ones you cant train are eye gouges and knuckle punches. Knees, elbows, just fine as long as they arent too the face itself. Eye gouges can be trained actively as long as you are careful and dont actually gouge your opponents eyes. Knuckle punches are trained any time you hit someone. You just have to change your fist.
We even work on arm/leg breaks and cranks, you just gotta know when to let go.... And yes, we use chin na in free sparring.

"For example, in self-defense situation a palm strike to the head is often a better option than a closed fist to the head. If for no other reason than you stand less of chance of breaking your own hand. But in addition because you can deliver more of a pin pointed strike to anatomy (ie under the chin)"
We use palms too....

"Some weight lifting gloves, cup and mouthguard and hope you can trust your partner enough not to knock out your teeth. "
lol! Add headgear to your list and thats about what we are doing....

If you dont want to fight then dont, but dont make excuses. Be honest. Say "I like to do formwork, but I do not like fighting." But dont claim to be a good fighter if you dont fight, because in actuality, you do not know!
I do formwork among many other things, so Im not "dissing on the TCMA crowd". I train a TCMA as well.

[Meat Shake]

"Also, don't discount iron palm training. "

I dont think he is. I train iron palm also, along with my forearms and shins.

"Two examples that come to mind are Taijiquan and Bagua Zhang."

I have felt good taiji and it is hard to deal with, but good efficient taiji practitioners are few and far between.

[Ray Pina]

I think the issue is that you're looking for Saw Brother action inside a ring. I offer that that **** never happened.

Take the "old masters" and put them in a pair of jeans and a hooded sweat shirt. Figthing is fighting. There's punching and kicking and grabbing and locking and throwing.

Everyone has what they want to do, and when confronted with a violent person trying to stomp them to the ground they wind up with a percentage less that the ideal they wanted. That's why what you're seeing looks sloppy.

The closest I've seen to someone doing what you're looking for is Cung Lee. He's very good, but still I question why he hasn't gone into the UFC or Pride .... they have offered. What happens after he takes the guy down with that jumping sciccors kick? The guy can fall right into an ankle lock, etc.

He's very good at what he does so its clean and crisp. He's not only a professional, he's atop of his field and a professional.

You want fights to look like dancing. Fights are fights by their very nature.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"

"Some weight lifting gloves, cup and mouthguard and hope you can trust your partner enough not to knock out your teeth. "
lol! Add headgear to your list and thats about what we are doing....

If you dont want to fight then dont, but dont make excuses. Be honest. Say "I like to do formwork, but I do not like fighting." But dont claim to be a good fighter if you dont fight, because in actuality, you do not know!
I do formwork among many other things, so Im not "dissing on the TCMA crowd". I train a TCMA as well.

Cool. It sounds like we are about on the same page. I just got together with one of my classmates this weekend and sparred for about 1/2hr. We both learned a lot but we weren't going full out, probaby between 40-60% of what we can actually do.

We had head gear, 14oz gloves, foot pads, cups and mouthguards.

I just see form, chi gung, self-defense training and free sparring working in unison and not in any antagonistic fashion.

However, I think if you start indiscriminately removing training "modalities" from TCMA(to borrow a medical term) then your not doing TCMA anymore, you're doing something else. :D :p ;)