Racism/Privacy/etc to non-Chinese/Asian looking people

[unixfudotnet]

I am an American and am from Irish/french decent.

Why is it that some people in Chinatowns still are not open to those that are not Chinese or appear Asian? I was told a story yesterday of someone getting kicked out of store because he was not Chinese looking and told him the herbs he was looking for were poison, when they actually were not. So, he sent a Chinese kid in to get the herbs he needed.

Why does this still exist? Maybe it is just something I am not getting, but I thought that we would have progressed as a society that this should not be going on. Have others had the same experiences in Chinatowns? Why are people like this? I mean if you leave your country, and come to America, yet deny access from people that are from America, that is a bit selfish, but it is your right to do so.

I suppose the whole thing of that if you are not Chinese or Asian then you are inferior in martial arts and eastern medicine just gets to me sometimes. We are all people, and it seems that one thing I have learned while doing martial arts and such, is that race, skin color, religion, etc do not matter and we all are working on the same goal and path.

It just frustrates me that there is still a closed door to non-Asian/Chinese people. Sure it has been pushed open and broken down into shreds in the last 60 or so years, just surprised is all. I am only 26, and surely ignorant of how so many things in the world work. A better understanding is all I am asking for.

Why?

[MasterKiller]

Might have something to do with a whole bunch of white people trying to take control of China about 90 years ago...

[David Jamieson]

Why is it that some people in Chinatowns still are not open to those that are not Chinese or appear Asian?

For the same reason there are non-asians who look down on asians and treat them poorly either verbally, physically or otherwise.

Racism, intolerance, hatred and refusal of acceptance is something every culture has yet to fully deal with.

Until then, buck up and go to another herbs store. Apparently someone don't like you at that one. :p

[lxtruong]

It's because we are better! j/k.

Well, I have the opposite problem. Some people assume that since I'm chinese, I should automagically be able to do lots of the wushu-style acrobatics, when I'm no more able to do a 540 anything into the splits than I am able to fly. However, I did get the "you're learning kung fu from a white man?" from my mom when I told her, so I guess it goes both ways.

Besides, if that storekeeper was stupid enough to turn away good business because of predjuice, then he deserves to not get his money and go out of business, I say. Stupidity should be rewarded appropiately.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
However, I did get the "you're learning kung fu from a white man?" from my mom when I told her, so I guess it goes both ways. Kung Fu? I thought you were a Shaolin-Do student?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

unixfudotnet,

Quite simply because some people have prejiduces and some people's prejidices are race related.

I don't know about the law of your land. In some countries, it is illigal to kick someone out of your school, store etc... on racial grounds.

[EarthDragon]

I lived in the heart of chinatown San Francisco. I used to go into the same chinese bakery every moring for pork bun and a hong kong tea.
I would get the funny looks, rude service and wispers. I was the only non- chinese person there,in the mornings, ever!
it was'nt until I went in with my shrfu that I got the respect and courtesy that I thought a daily customer deserved.
later my shrfu told me they thought it was strange that a caucasian would eat pork buns and tea instead of eggs and coffee. racial profiling indeed!

I wont even tell you about the time I went to a triad party with my chinese kung fu sister.

[Shaolinlueb]

i get it soemtimes, i jsut brush it off. i have seen my kung fu better then a lot of asian people. i went to nyc china town sunday and went to the herb store to buy it, the guy was very helpful. but its racism, it still exists from both sides. deal with it or try to change it by breaking it.

[SaMantis]

If you think about it, segregation & open racism have only "just ended" when you consider the decades -- centuries -- that such actions were sanctioned. And of course, less-than-subtle racism, assumption and outright ignorance, on all sides, still exists.

There are many people with still-open wounds out there. It's unfortunate that you ran into one of them. Maybe time will heal this person's hurt, anger and suspicion, maybe not. But I think it's good for you to vent here, rather than take it out on the shopkeeper.

[Icewater]

Why hate a group of people when there are so many reasons to hate people individually. Unless of course they are dirty liberals. :)

[GLW]

While there IS racism involved on both sides....it does get a bit different when you are talking about an herb shop.

Knowing a couple of people in that business, they are a bit worried about the Anglo clients because:

Some come in with self-medication ideas. They have no background in herbology but have a list of things they want. Sometimes that list, when combined, can be a not too good thing

AND...

Anglos tend to be lawsuit happy in their eyes. They are truly afraid of filling an herbal prescription in good faith and then later having the customer sue them.

Of course, there is still the old "You are not Chinese..." thing there as well.

[lkfmdc]

In NYC, everyone knows about Chan Tai-San's "talking monkies" but around the country I still have fun from time to time:D

The first time I went to San Francisco (years ago) I walked in to eat and ordered in Cantonese.... the guy blinked about 25 times, so I figured "heck, maybe he speaks Mandarin".... I orded in Mandarin.... still blinking at me he walks away from me.... so I get a little pizzed... follow him to the door to the kitchen... he starts screaming "come out here, come out here" and out comes the whole kitchen staff

"can you do that again" he asks me.....:rolleyes:

Steve Ventura and I are at a dim sum place, a dad turns to his kid and says "look at the funny foreigners eating dim sum"

Steve turns to me, and LOUDLY says in Cantonese "where are the funny foreigners eating dim sum?"

The Chinese guy shrinks to tiny person size like a bad cartoon

Chinese DO assume we are all illiterate idiots, why I can't tell you. The number of times I've told someone "look, dont' be an idiot, we both know what is going on here" is legendary

[neit]

maybe they fear whitey will do the same to their medicine as some caucasians have done to asian martial arts. we don't exactly have a good track record.

how old was this person? if i was that shopkeeper i'd be kinda scared to sell herbs to some kid without knowing if he knew what he should do with them. if it was obviously a student with sifu's shopping list i bet it may have been different.

[neit]

lkfmdc - an alternate response to dim sum dad would be "yah look at all these foreigners, unlike you and me who were born here"

[SPJ]

Here is a couple of tips to make things friendlier.

Wear clothes with Chinese characters on.

Speak a few Chinese.

Mandarin.

Ni Hao. (Good day)

Xie Xie (Shie Shie). (thank you).

Ching Wen (may I ask).

Do Sao Chien (how much it cost).

Cantonese.

Zo Sen. (Good morning)

Men Gai. (Thank you).

Gei Do Ching (how much it cost).

Zai Ging. (Goodbye).

When I first came to the states, all I can say is thank you and excuse me.

People think I am an American Indian, Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese. Huh Huh I am a Chinese from Taiwan. Oh Thailand. You are Thai. No. Taiwan. Oh Thailand.

Where is Taiwan or Thailand?

Huh-- Never mind. I am cherokee, Navajo or Chaiyenne. Never mind.

:D

[Shaolin Dude]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
I wont even tell you about the time I went to a triad party with my chinese kung fu sister.

I bet the triads thought you were going out with her. did they beat you up?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Originally posted by SPJ
Here is a couple of tips to make things friendlier.

Wear clothes with Chinese characters on.

Speak a few Chinese.

Mandarin.

Ni Hao. (Good day)

Xie Xie (Shie Shie). (thank you).

Ching Wen (may I ask).

Do Sao Chien (how much it cost).
:D

good advice really, but I think that would be
dsai jien ( goodbye)

sheih sheh ( thk you)

war yow ( wo yao ) ( I want ....)

dor ( shouw) chien ( how much was that ?)

ee gar ( one of those )

liang gar ( two of em ) san gar ( three o the suckers)

ser gar ( si ge ) ( 4 thanks )
ooo gar ( wo ge) ( 5.... cheers)
leeooh gar ( lio ge) I'll have 6 thx
chi gar ( qi ge ) ( 7 ) ...mm...7 pls
bar gar ( ba ge) ( 8) I'll take 8
jeeooh gar ( jio ge)( 9) 9 pls
sher gar( shi ge) ( 10) round 10 and cheers


your point is valid and when you have little language, it 's just a bother and an effort to communicate with folks who have no I- mofo-dea what you're saying despite your efforts.

Be patient and empathetic, put in some effort, and they'll likely respond in kind. ;)

[Becca]

How many hundreds of dialects of "chinese" are there? I have to ask, because every time we get into the topic of how to say this or that, I find that some of what is said is a bit different and some is wildly different.:) I have always thought "Xie Xie" was thankyou, but the dialect my style uses, it is "do xie".

[Songshan]

Well the "China Town" around Houston is mainly a mixture of Chinese and Vietnamese. I can honestly say that I have always had good experiences down here in the south. Especially if you do speak a few words of Mandarin.

In regards to why some may be a little on the edge could be a number of reasons. They may have just moved to this country or perhaps a few people before you passed through and were very rude or ugly to them. Either way, racism is still the cancer in America. Perhaps one day we will all learn how to respect each other.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
good advice really, but I think that would be
dsai jien ( goodbye)

sheih sheh ( thk you)

war yow ( wo yao ) ( I want ....)

dor ( shouw) chien ( how much was that ?)

ee gar ( one of those )

liang gar ( two of em ) san gar ( three o the suckers)

ser gar ( si ge ) ( 4 thanks )
ooo gar ( wo ge) ( 5.... cheers)
leeooh gar ( lio ge) I'll have 6 thx
chi gar ( qi ge ) ( 7 ) ...mm...7 pls
bar gar ( ba ge) ( 8) I'll take 8
jeeooh gar ( jio ge)( 9) 9 pls
sher gar( shi ge) ( 10) round 10 and cheers


your point is valid and when you have little language, it 's just a bother and an effort to communicate with folks who have no I- mofo-dea what you're saying despite your efforts.

Be patient and empathetic, put in some effort, and they'll likely respond in kind. ;)
Are you seriously trying to correct a native speaker, Michelle? Will you please fvck off. You're banned.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Becca
How many hundreds of dialects of "chinese" are there? I have to ask, because every time we get into the topic of how to say this or that, I find that some of what is said is a bit different and some is wildly different.:) I have always thought "Xie Xie" was thankyou, but the dialect my style uses, it is "do xie".
Xie xie is Mandarin. Do xie (I would write it more like dor jie) is Cantonese. Mandarin is the national language. Cantonese is probably the second biggest spoken language/dialect.

As for how many there are, who knows!? ;)

SPJ - You have a funny accent when you write Cantonese! ;)

[norther practitioner]

Many of the Chinese Americans that speak Chinese still that I've met speak mostly cantonese. I could be 100% wrong, but it was explained to me that many of the immigrants to the US from China passed through southern China to get here, or were from southern China... where cantonese is more the normal. Here in Denver though, I've met a fair bit of both.

[Becca]

But SPJ had it as "Men Gai" in cantonese, Serp. That is my point, really. Learning "chinese" is a bugger. That's one of the reasons I always post techniques by thier anglo translations rather than the chinese name.

I agree with NP- I find a pretty even mix of manderin and cantonese here in Denver. And most are perfectly happy to help the goofy white girl improove. :)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Becca
But SPJ had it as "Men Gai" in cantonese, Serp. That is my point, really. Learning "chinese" is a bugger.
Yes it is! You could also say Mm-Goi, which is what I think SPJ was getting at, hence my accent quip. Of course, I could be wrong there. SPJ?

Do jie is the more polite Cantonese way of thanking someone or for someone you don't know too well. There are lots of other Cantonese speakers here though, that know far better than I do, so hopefully they'll step in! ;)

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by Becca
But SPJ had it as "Men Gai" in cantonese, Serp. That is my point, really. Learning "chinese" is a bugger. That's one of the reasons I always post techniques by thier anglo translations rather than the chinese name.

I agree with NP- I find a pretty even mix of manderin and cantonese here in Denver. And most are perfectly happy to help the goofy white girl improove. :)

They have goofy white girls in CC!?

sorry, I had too.:D

[Ka]

I don't think many realize it but there are more cultures out there with traditonal racist practises then there are cultures who embrace(or try to) equality and equity.

BL at least learn pinyin if you are going to attempt to romanize Chinese
Counting ge¸ö is a general measure word so its the number followed by ge then object eg Èý¸öÈË3 people,but many items have different MWs or counters.
лл Xie Xie: Thanks Mandarin
¶àл Duo Xie :many thanks = Canto, doh je(thanks formal)
m goi Canto Thanks informal/excuse me
Many of the Dialects share simular words and luckily the same written sytem more reason to study the Characters or at least know the pinyin.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
In NYC, everyone knows about Chan Tai-San's "talking monkies" ...


... he starts screaming "come out here, come out here" and out comes the whole kitchen staff

....

Chinese DO assume we are all illiterate idiots, why I can't tell you. The number of times I've told someone "look, dont' be an idiot, we both know what is going on here" is legendary

It's getting better as more foreigners come to Xi'an but still.... I learned a few habits and quick comebacks.

After about the 30th time someone said to my Chinese friend:

"Are you his interpretor?"

I now shoot back in Chinese before my friend can answer:

"Why yes I am! How did know guess?"

Sometimes after 5 or 10 minutes of idle conversation as I wait for some food to go, the person I am speaking with will ask me:

"Can you understand it when we speak to you in Chinese?" :confused:

So of course I will tell them, "Not really."

I still haven't figure out how to deal with the person who INSISTS on asking questions through my GF even if I keep answering them. Example:

Some guy: "Can he speak Chinese?"
Me: "Yes, I can speak Chines just fine!"
Some guy (startled and turns AGAIN to my GF): "How is it that he can speak Chinese so well?"
Me: "I've lived here for several years now."
Some guy (still talking to my GF): "Wow! He speaks Chinese really well. How did he get so good...."

The "talking monkey" analogy really fits.

I've also overheard some INCREDIBLY private chat between 2 girls once who should have known I could understand since I had been speaking with them for over an hour. But they thought that they just needed to speak at regular speed (instead of special slow for foreigner speed) and I wouldn't be able to keep up. Too bad my GF both mumbles AND speaks about twice the speed of the average local.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

say what you like about BL and her practical language skill, but it's gotten her by as know nothing gwailo for the last 12+ months and quite frankly, that'll do me nicely.

either way, end of personal investment. To bad for conceited arrogance ha Serps.

Ps: I guess the dialect you study will depend greatly on why you're studying.

good luck with it.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
say what you like about BL and her practical language skill, but it's gotten her by as know nothing gwailo for the last 12+ months and quite frankly, that'll do me nicely.

Oops! Forgot to impersonate Kelvin there, didn't you, Michelle.

Anyway, you finally said something that everyone can agree with:


Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
know nothing gwailo

Ain't no-one gonna argue with that.

[SPJ]

How I get by with a few Cantonese in Chinatown.

Tai Ha Xing. (look first).

Ho Mm Ho. (good or not). Ho. (Good). Mm Ho. (Not good).

Zin Mm Zin. (excellent or not). Zin (execellent).

Lein Mm Lein. (Nice or not)

Da Mm Da. (ok?) Da (ok)

Ya, Li, San, Sei, Mm, Lo, Tsa, Ba, Gau, (1-9)

Ba. (hundred) Chin (thousand). Man (dollar).

Tai Do Lah. (too much).

Anh Anh Ho. (Just right)

Sun Siu Je. (discount please).

Fuan Guei. (Be back).

Mn Si Guan Dong Wa. (dunno cantonese).

Siu Siu. ( a little).

Ho Dai. (too big).

Ho. (fine).

Zhuong Yi. (like it)

Bei Ching. (pay).

Mm Goi Lei. Thank you.

:D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

SPJ,

When I go to china town I speak english. People in america should have a common knowledge of english and should learn to communicate in that language. It doesn't always work like that, but I don't think its acceptable if they only converse in a foreign language. These days though comming out of China to study abroad, there are tests and language proficiency standards they need to conform to before entering or getting accepted into a uni.

Although BL has taught me a few worlds of chinese, I would still insist in speaking in english when I go to china town and will keep speaking it until they understand. The balls on their court.


Btw, by :do me nicely" I meant myself Ego as for her use. :rolleyes: and my previous post if you missed it, was re-: phonetic mandarin vs spelling. A tip's a tip.

[CFT]

The distrust of non-Asians is just an exercise in mutual distrust. You might have seen this in the news already: Survey found 25 percent of respondents harbor very negative attitudes and stereotypes toward Chinese Americans (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/04/27/MN199998.DTL)

But dredging up some history, you also find some specific legislation against the Chinese in the USA: YICK WO V. HOPKINS (1886) (http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/64.htm)

As to assuming non-Asians or non-Chinese not speaking Chinese - well just how common is it? Not very. But when someone has obviously made the effort it would be sporting to engage in conversation.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Becca
But SPJ had it as "Men Gai" in cantonese, Serp. That is my point, really. Learning "chinese" is a bugger. That's one of the reasons I always post techniques by thier anglo translations rather than the chinese name.

I agree with NP- I find a pretty even mix of manderin and cantonese here in Denver. And most are perfectly happy to help the goofy white girl improove. :) Good on ya Becca. Just keep trying - things can only improve.

Romanization of Chinese words is somewhat simpler for Mandarin because there is a formalised pinyin system created by the Chinese (PRC and RoC) government. Whereas Cantonese romanisation is a bit of a hit and miss affair, since most Cantonese speakers don't actually formally learn a romanization system and just write it as they see fit. This is despite the fact that there are formal romanization systems for Cantonese, e.g. Yale, Jyutping, and a few more. Do a Google search on "Cantonese romanization/romanisation".

Chinese speakers in the USA are likely to be: Cantonese, Toishan, Hokkien/Fukien, Hakka, Mandarin. Yes, a lot of the original Chinese immigrants to the USA, e.g. during the gold rush and construction of the Pacific railroad, were from Southern China. More recent waves of Chinese immigration are from China and Taiwan, I believe.

[Ming Yue]

I spent a few years prowling Chinatown in San Francisco when I was in college, and I never got any kind of resistance or attitude.

The town I grew up in was 60% asian by the time I was in high school, and again, neither I nor my friends had problems, and most folks for whom english was a second language seemed to enjoy practicing their english.... We were respectful and if the distrust was there, it was well-veiled.

[CFT]

Ahem, I 'm sure you get by just fine SPJ, but would you mind if I corrected you a bit? The fact that I recognise what you're trying to say means that your pronunciation must be pretty good - maybe it's just the romanization? I'm just using a made up romanisation, since you'd have to put in some effort to learn a formal one like Jyutping - some sounds don't seem intuitive.

How did you learn your Cantonese. "On the street" or formal classes?

SPJ: Tai Ha Xing. (look first).
CFT: Tai Ha Sin(Seen)

SPJ: Zin Mm Zin. (excellent or not). Zin (execellent).
CFT: Zeng Mm Zeng

SPJ: Lein Mm Lein. (Nice or not)
CFT: Leng Mm Leng (Beautiful or not?)

SPJ: Ya, Li, San, Sei, Mm, Lo, Tsa, Ba, Gau, (1-9)
CFT: Yut, Yee, Sam, Sei, Mm(Ng), Luk(Look), Tsut, Bat, Gau(Gow)

SPJ: Bai. (hundred) Chin (thousand). Man (dollar).
CFT: Bak, Tseen, Mun (but yes frequently spelt Man).

SPJ: Tai Do Lah. (too much).
CFT: Tai Dor Lah

SPJ: Anh Anh Ho. (Just right)
CFT: Ngam Ngam Ho

SPJ: Sun Siu Je. (discount please).
CFT: Da gor tsit tau leh?

SPJ: Fuan Guei. (Be back).
CFT: Ngor joy faan juen tau (I'll be back)

SPJ: Mn Si Guan Dong Wa. (dunno cantonese).
CFT: Mm Sik Gong Gwong Dong Wah

SPJ: Ho Dai. (too big).
CFT: Tai Dai

SPJ: Bei Ching. (pay).
CFT: Bei Tsin.

SPJ: Mm Goi Lein. Thank you.
CFT: Mm Goi Lei (just a typo?)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by CFT
Chinese speakers in the USA are likely to be: Cantonese, Toishan, Hokkien/Fukien, Hakka, Mandarin. ...

Are you referring to the language they are likely to speak? Because the wasy you phrased it it looks like you are referring to ethnicity but last I checked "mandarin" was not. If it is...that's fantastic. Maybe now someone can finnaly tell me where "mandarin" cuisine comes from. lol...No one in China seems to have heard of it. In fact, no one I have spoken with even has any guesses why the language is called "mandarin".

I have my own pet theory but never been able to confirm it with any historical sources.

[lkfmdc]

"Mandarin" is actually called "Guo Yu" or "national langauge" in real Chinese, I am not sure, but I would suspect that since the provincial officials all used it, the dumb lo faan started calling it "Mandarin" after the provincial officials who they also incorrectly called "Mandarins"

Guo Yu is a sysnthetic form of Beijing dialect, which happens to be compatable with 95% of the dialects spoken in China (Cantonese and Fukienese being two notable exceptions!)

Still, I found Guo Yu easy to pick up after speaking Cantonese for so many years....

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

good points, but even those in China speaking Cantonese, will usually be required, particularly in trade etc to learn and know how to understand and speak Mandarin.

[SPJ]

CFT;

Thanks for the corrections. Dor Jei Sai. My collegemates in the "80 are from Malaysia. Their cantonese may not be as "official" as the Hong Kong or Kwang Jou Cantonese. I pick it up here and there. No formal classes.

My point is that if you make some efforts to be friendly first.

Actually, I do speak English or mandarin slowly so I can get my message across.

They always speak Cantonese to me first. I also know a couple of other dialects.

If you say some greetings and ask politely, they are businessmen, they want to make your money?

The other reasons they may show cold shoulders are that a lot of people including moi are just looking, price comparison and not really buying. There are usually several stores selling the same stuff you need.

Once you have a good terms with them, you may be able to talk down the price or buy in volume if they do lower the price. If not, you may say you come back next time. They like cash and not check or credit cards.

A lot of time, I happened to be in the area, I went over and say hello and not buying. If I see something good price, then I buy.

1) find what you need, shop around.

2) get a bargain.

3) no matter what languages or dialects or English they speak.

A good deal is a good deal.

:cool:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by CFT
Ahem, I 'm sure you get by just fine SPJ, but would you mind if I corrected you a bit? The fact that I recognise what you're trying to say means that your pronunciation must be pretty good - maybe it's just the romanization? I'm just using a made up romanisation, since you'd have to put in some effort to learn a formal one like Jyutping - some sounds don't seem intuitive.

How did you learn your Cantonese. "On the street" or formal classes?

SPJ: Tai Ha Xing. (look first).
CFT: Tai Ha Sin(Seen)

SPJ: Zin Mm Zin. (excellent or not). Zin (execellent).
CFT: Zeng Mm Zeng

SPJ: Lein Mm Lein. (Nice or not)
CFT: Leng Mm Leng (Beautiful or not?)

SPJ: Ya, Li, San, Sei, Mm, Lo, Tsa, Ba, Gau, (1-9)
CFT: Yut, Yee, Sam, Sei, Mm(Ng), Luk(Look), Tsut, Bat, Gau(Gow)

SPJ: Bai. (hundred) Chin (thousand). Man (dollar).
CFT: Bak, Tseen, Mun (but yes frequently spelt Man).

SPJ: Tai Do Lah. (too much).
CFT: Tai Dor Lah

SPJ: Anh Anh Ho. (Just right)
CFT: Ngam Ngam Ho

SPJ: Sun Siu Je. (discount please).
CFT: Da gor tsit tau leh?

SPJ: Fuan Guei. (Be back).
CFT: Ngor joy faan juen tau (I'll be back)

SPJ: Mn Si Guan Dong Wa. (dunno cantonese).
CFT: Mm Sik Gong Gwong Dong Wah

SPJ: Ho Dai. (too big).
CFT: Tai Dai

SPJ: Bei Ching. (pay).
CFT: Bei Tsin.

SPJ: Mm Goi Lein. Thank you.
CFT: Mm Goi Lei (just a typo?)
You see, SPJ - I told you that you have a funny accent when you write Cantonese. ;)

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]"Mandarin" is actually called "Guo Yu" or "national langauge" in real Chinese~{!#!#!#!#~}

lol

In "real Chinese" they call it "putonghua" or more commonly "han yu". My students had a minor tantrum last year over my persistant use of the term "guo yu" to refer to their language. Eventually, they explained to me that people in Taiwan call it "guo yu" and the term for some reason or another offends their 13 and 14 year old sensabilities.

Anyways, what I MEANT was .... where the hell the this *******ized term "Mandarin" come from? Even the provincial officials term in Chinese doesn't sound similar. And as to "Mandarin" cuisine....? Who knows what THAT is supposed to be.

My pet theory on the term "mandarin" is that we English speakers picked up the term in the late Qing era. The Qing rulers were from a minority group called the "man". And sometimes high officials are called "Da Ren" (literally: big man) so maybe they were the "man da ren" (~{Bz4sHK#)~} But no local Chinese or other scholar seems to have heard of this form of address so I dunno. Just a wierd quirk.

Oh yeah...as a side note....the people in Shaanxi of course will tell you that "pu tong hua" is a synthetic SHAANXI dialect...lol. They will point out that the capital was in Xi'an way earlier and for much longer than it was in Beijing...:p

[CFT]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Are you referring to the language they are likely to speak? Because the wasy you phrased it it looks like you are referring to ethnicity but last I checked "mandarin" was not. If it is...that's fantastic. Maybe now someone can finnaly tell me where "mandarin" cuisine comes from. lol...No one in China seems to have heard of it. In fact, no one I have spoken with even has any guesses why the language is called "mandarin".

I have my own pet theory but never been able to confirm it with any historical sources. Hi, sorry for the confusion. I slipped up when starting with Cantonese through to Mandarin. Mandarin definitely is NOT an ethnicity or even a region. There is an "Imperial cuisine" - the dishes that were served in the Imperial Court - but I'm not sure if that is ever refered to as "Mandarin cuisine".

lkfmdc is right that Mandarin was an official language used by Imperial court officials, also known as Mandarins in the West, hence the use of Mandarin in reference to the language.

Mandarin used to be known as "gwoon wah" in spoken Cantonese; "gwoon" = official, "wah" = speech.

Most HK & overseas Cantonese speakers refer to Mandarin as "gwok yu" (or "Guo Yu" in Mandarin as lkfmdc points out); "gwok" = country/nation; "yu" = language/speech.

Another more common term for Mandarin that is used in China today is "Putonghua"; "Pu tong" = everyday/normal/common; "hua" = speech. So they are refering to Mandarin as the "common tongue".

EDIT: oops, looks like Omar has beat me to it!!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

just had BL run it by her cop-friend and he says while they are in Guangzhou, and he speaks Guangzhou hua, no matter where you go in China, putong hua will always be your safest bet, even for language study in relation to chinese cultural or martial pursuits from abroad and has less characters which are more simple.

Becca :- also ran the question of how many dialects in China and he says there are many many, varying from district to district and province to province, but slight to less slight phonetic differences aside , putong hua will always be natively the most common.

EE

Ps: han yu = chinese language
guo yu = country language

[lkfmdc]

well aside from the official foreign language instructional texts produced in Harvard and Cambridge, which use the term "Guo Yu", there are also tons of Chinese who do

My Guangdong sifu used the term "Guo Yu" but he said "Gwok Yu" because it was in Cantonese

All my ex in-laws and everyone I met in Shanghai used "Guo Yu", to THEM, "putongwah" was Shanghaiese!

Fukienese use "Guo Yu"

Only the PRC gov't sources INSIST it is "Putongwah"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

oh..... you mean that guo yu is only it's correct name says the now forgeiner...

gotchya ;)

[lkfmdc]

Guo Yu is a commonly used term for "Mandarin", not a "mistake" and certainly not "incorrect".....

Where China is concerned, EVERYTHING is political, but don't buy what brain washed people tell you is fact.....

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

no , but I think I will just take what the folks living there do...like a native born cop still living there for example......

[lkfmdc]

so, Chan Tai San who lived in China for over 50 years isn't CHinese?

Nor are my ex in-laws, who STILL live in Shanghai

Or teh Fukienese guy who imports gear from Fuzhou to the US

ok, sure...... :rolleyes:

that cop has Chin-na'd your brain apparently

[Buddy]

Eggo writes:
"Although BL has taught me a few worlds of chinese, I would still insist in speaking in english when I go to china town and will keep speaking it until they understand."

Even if they don't. Good plan. Try speaking louder, that will probably work, too.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Buddy,

You might be right for once. People in Hong Kong are constantly exposed to high levels of traffic noise. They're used to people speaking loud. Sometimes it may be that they just to hear you.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Guo Yu is a commonly used term for "Mandarin", not a "mistake" and certainly not "incorrect".....

Where China is concerned, EVERYTHING is political, but don't buy what brain washed people tell you is fact.....

Hey man, lighten up a bit will ya. I was teasing. It's not "brainwashing" it's just a linguistic habit. Like English English vs. American English. "lift" vs. "elevator" or "truck" vs. "lary" (I can't even spell it. :rolleyes: ) You just made it sound so final.

"The OFFICIAL term..."

And I would have thought that the most "official" term would be the one from Beijing...

It's like the nationalist party likes to put the word "national" into everything.

Guoshu (kuoshu)
Guoyu
Guo Min Dang (KMT)

It's not like the locals didn't understand, and remember I am talking about 13-14 year old kids here....they just thought the term was real annoying. They have all heard the Taiwanese accent on TV and in movies. A lot of western animated features tend to use Taiwanese talent for the dubbing. My first real exposure was "Shrek". Several of the most popular singers in China are from Taiwan. And I'm telling you....a lot of mainlanders love to make fun of the Taiwanese accent. . . even I do at times.

Heck one of the more popular themes in the Chinese "vaudeville" (xiang sheng) is playing with dialects and funny accents. Dongbei dialect seems kind of popular to make fun of these days. Years back people loved to make fun of Hunan (Mao Ze Dong spoke with a heavy Hunan accent)

All in good fun.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
so, Chan Tai San who lived in China for over 50 years isn't CHinese?


Back where my Dad live in Vermont 50 years still wouldn't qualify you as a Vermonter...:p

[SPJ]

I was born in Taiwan, and never been to China.

And yes I consider myself Chinese ethnic.

:D

[omarthefish]

The Chinese here on the mainland consider you Chinese ethnically AND nationality-wise.

They just think ya talk funny.

[Becca]

Kind'a like people here in th US make fun of people with mullets. They are still good Amaericans, they just dress funny.;)

omarthefish- The difference between "the king's english" and "american english" is a good example of differences in dialect, and not just on a spoken level. We even spell the same words differently. Is it wrong to say lory in America or truck in Britton? No, but no-one will understand you, even if they are aware of the alternate meanings.

I was lucky enough to visit Austrailia several years ago. Afriendof mine and I were walking down a street some suburb of Sydny(sp?) when a group of locals asked us if we were "working girls". We said yes, because we did have carriers here in the states. But that is not what that term meant there! Boy were we embarrassed when they asked us how much for the night!!!:o :p

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Becca,

In Europe, night clubs are places where people watch strip shows and stuff. Discos are places you dance. I heard from a friend of mine from Australia that nigh clubs are places you dance and discos are the daggy stuff of the 70s.

[SPJ]

Omar;

People would pass you as "Chinese", too. You know the language, the culture, the history. You live in the ancient capital of Xi'an. You even practice Ba Ji.

And these make us more than "brothers".

I study Ba Ji before and am still practicing it. And that makes us brothers in the same school or Tong Men Si Xiong Di.

Thus, So Wer Yi Bai. Si Hing.

In many senses, you are more "Chinese" than I am.

And the language is not the only or the last thing.

:D

[David Jamieson]

dialects of cantonese are tricky, the cantonese spoken in my home town is slightly different to teh Cantonese spoken here in Toronto.

There is also a lot of Shanghaiese here and Taiwanese dialectical speech.

so, phonetically it sounds like:

Jo San, Nei Ho Ma - Good morning are you well

Nei Ho Ma - are you well

Ho - Good!

Ho Ho - Real Good

Ho Yeah - Excellent

Mm goi - excuse me

cheng man - may I please...

siu sing - my name is

Nei La - and you?

cheng man chi soh hai bin do a? - where is the bathroom? :D(important)

m sai dui m jue - you don't need to say sorry

m sai m goi - no need to say thanks

Do Jeh - Thank you

Mm Do Jeh - No Thank you

Mm- No

hai- yes

yat dee- a little

Joi geen - see you

ting yat joi geen - see you tomorrow

nei sik m sik ying man ah? (you speak/not speak english)

nei dhong m dhong ah? " thing" (you do/do not understand)

and so on and so on.
trouble with typing this stuff out is that the rising, lowering and flat accents aren't shown so intonation is lost.

in cantonese, most questions end with "ah?" and it is rising like aaaaahhh?, the more you want to know, the longer the rise in the ah.

terse questions are short on the "ah?" at the end of the phrase.

anyway, I find that cantonese is less starightforward to learn than pu tong hua and am grateful that most Chinese Canadians speak both. :D