how do you power your sun punch?

[yellowpikachu]

how do you power your sun punch? and why?

Care to post your ideas?

[anerlich]

duhhh ..... solar power?

(someone had to to say it).

Pretty much along the lines in Jack Dempsey's book, "Championship Fighting."

[Mr Punch]

God****** you got there first!!! :D

[IRONMONK]

mainly trying to get my bodyweight behind my punch

[PaulH]

Interesting question, Hendrik. There are two ways to enpower the SF that I know of:

1. Hip thrust
2. Hip turning

P.S In practice the SF just seems to flow naturally with the body from where you are. So it is more from kinetic body movement.

[yellowpikachu]

http://www.valence.com/ncharge2.asp

is good for 10 hours!

[Ernie]

use this http://www.chss.montclair.edu/~pererat/q_ray2.jpg

and mesure your super chi with http://www.chss.montclair.edu/~pererat/q_lie21.jpg

the real secret is you must eat this http://www.whozoo.org/Intro2000/tashcorm/tempagetwo.htm

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Interesting question, Hendrik. There are two ways to enpower the SF that I know of:

1. Hip thrust
2. Hip turning

P.S In practice the SF just seems to flow naturally with the body from where you are. So it is more from kinetic body movement.


Pual,

you mean these?

http://shop.bellydance.org/

[PaulH]

It's rather unseemly for me to say! =D But something along a more Yang version...

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
It's rather unseemly for me to say! =D But something along a more Yang version...


You mean this? Yang?

http://www.vegas.com/searchagent/event/SearchResultView.do?id=4293

[PaulH]

Could you find something that is more of Sammo Hung? =D

[AmanuJRY]

Thermonuclear chain reaction.:cool:

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The punch must come from the solar plexus to the collarbone, not straight out. When punching straight out and making contact, the punch will only make your opponent step back and give him time too get his defensive structure together. But punching from the solar plexus too the collarbone in a 30-degree upward angle
(keep the wrist straigth) this will destroy your opponent’s structure upon contact, hence making his defensive top triangle top heavy, keeping him off balance. If he is fighting for his balance, then how can he fight you?
Remember; when applying offensive structure mainly with a hit or a strike, with good wing chun, you should always destroy your opponent’s defensive structure upon contact.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mr Punch]

Ali Hamad Rahim
The punch must come from the solar plexus to the collarbone[Every time?!!!

So if you don't get a shot to the collarbone you don't punch!!! Guess I'm not doing so great punching someone in the head then?! :D

From the solar plexus? I take it you mean from somewhere close to the solar plexus? If you are punching right from the solar plexus, your elbow and arm position are hopelessly weak.
When punching straight out and making contact, the punch will only make your opponent step back and give him time too get his defensive structure together. But punching from the solar plexus too the collarbone in a 30-degree upward angle
(keep the wrist straigth) this will destroy your opponent’s structure upon contact, hence making his defensive top triangle top heavy, keeping him off balance. There are many ways to break someone's balance. I take it you are talking an ideal punch in slow practise or in chi sao, not a real punch in a real fight or a match? Again, waiting for 30 degs is crazy.

If I hit somebody with penetrative power (inch power or however you want to see it) I can take their balance by hitting them to the left of their centreline in their chest, by angling it up or down, or just percussively enough straight backwards, or I can get their balance by hitting them in the nose (it's amazing how people lose their balance when you punch their nose towards the back of their head!!! :eek: :D ), or I can get their balance by punching them directly in the solar plexus...

While I agree completely with wanting to destroy their structure with your punch their are many many ways and places to do this with a sun punch.

I'm with Paul H so far... turning your hip, thrusting your hip (although generally this seems to be slower and not as powerful), of course coming out along centreline, taken that your centreline is in any axis so not necessarily 'straight' from your solar plexus, but it could be from a loose position from your hip, going up and out along the centre with the turn... more at a tangent to your rotating central axis than what I would call straight.

[YongChun]

I think if the punch is explosive enough then straight out is also good. Karate, Tai Chi, some Wing Chun, Hung style etc. all have punches and elbows directed at the solar plexus level. Of course they have hits directed everywhere else too.

Ray

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Let me put it this way. Take a can and put it on a desk or table and use a pen or pencil too push the can backwards (dead middle of the can), using the pen or pencil in a straight line the can will only slide backwards. But take it again and push the pen upward in a 30-degree angle and the can will tilt over. When punching from the solar plexus too the collarbone (meaning your own solar plexus too your own collarbone) the fist must ride up his breastplate as a bridge too the head (a straight shot too the chin), destroying his structure. Not straight too the head, for this will not make him top heavy and it is hard too hit someone directly too the head then it is too hit someone’s body; you learn this in basic boxing. Remember we are only talking about the sun punch. Try this and tell me what happen, that’s all; give it a shot. This concept will be giving on our new DVD collection.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Mat said:

I can get their balance by hitting them in the nose (it's amazing how people lose their balance when you punch their nose towards the back of their head!!! ), or I can get their balance by punching them directly in the solar plexus...


That’s if you can get to the nose. By making his structure top heavy, he has no choice but too fight for his balance. Then how can he fight you? By attacking this way, it will be easier too hit him in the nose. P.S who said anything about waiting for a 30-degree angle, there is no hesitation in wing chun just take the line. Duh. If I wanted too walk north in my home I will just turn that way and walk with no hesitation, but to some it is hard too understand what a 30 degree angle is, let alone take it as a fighting line. So they will have to wait or think on what one is, or how too use it.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mr Punch]

OK thanks Ali, that makes things a bit clearer.

Your're talking ideal punching angles, but in a way that sounds like you are advising on fight strategy.

BTW, I do like the angling upwards along the breastbone, so that's the practicalities sorted.

I can't agree on the theoretical illustration of the can analogy though. A can has an even weight distribution, and it also has no dangerous collections of nerves and muscles like the diaphragm and nerve group at the base of the solar plexus though.

And it's all in the set-up, the action/reaction, whcih is why sure I can agree on your strategy of making them 'top-heavy' but if i can set them up like that, on some occasions I will have already been able to have set them up to get a clear nose shot! and sure a body shot is often easier, but that doesn't mean that the head shot is impossible/undesirable does it?

Thanks for your post. I know where you're coming from and I agree with the meat.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Mat said:

I can't agree on the theoretical illustration of the can analogy though. A can has an even weight distribution, and it also has no dangerous collections of nerves and muscles like the diaphragm and nerve group at the base of the solar plexus though.

The can demo is basic physic laws of gravity, just think; when you push your car out of the mud, you just don’t push the car with the arms straight out, you dip the elbows as far as you can and push straight up and out on the car, making vector lines upwards and forwards, two different energies in one motions. Hitting this way will cause damage and will knock him off balances at the same time (Jik Chung aka Sun punch.). The Leung Sheung way of punching, and maybe many others.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


Mat said:

And it's all in the set-up, the action/reaction, whcih is why sure I can agree on your strategy of making them 'top-heavy' but if i can set them up like that, on some occasions I will have already been able to have set them up to get a clear nose shot! and sure a body shot is often easier, but that doesn't mean that the head shot is impossible/undesirable does it?



The Jik Chung is nothing but a reaction move also, that punch can be easily taught for someone too uses, the same way that I said in my earlier post, when punching in the air, next time punch from the solar plexus too the collarbone. Nice talking too you also Mat.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun)

[YongChun]

I think friction on the guys feet combined with the proper type of punch will prevent him from flying backwards and drop him on the spot. Maybe an analogy is when you have a bunch of dishes on top of a table cloth. If you pull the table cloth slowly off the table then all the dishes fall to the floor but if you pull it very quickly then the dishes stay there. Also some punches will just buckle the heavy swinging bag and not make it swing but some slower heavy punches will make it swing. That's my simple theory for today anyway. Maybe the straight punch idea comes from the fact that the upper quadrant is often occupied with hands but sometimes there is just a small opening to the solar plexus? I don't doubt the upward angle idea.

[AmanuJRY]

IMO, this is one of two possible punches.

I agree with the punch having an 'inclining' energy, though, I would not mandate a specific angle or point of origin to point of contact. Inclining energy has a strong 'uprooting' power to it, but as all things, for the yin there is a yang. The counterpart energy for the incline is the decline, or sinking energy and would be what you want to do when you experience the incline used against you.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

AmanuJRY SAID:

The counterpart energy for the incline is the decline, or sinking energy and would be what you want to do when you experience the incline used against you.

Then again the laws of physic says that your statement is not right. One vector far as sinking, cannot defeat two vectors of one motion, upwards and forwards. Just sink as much as you can and as low as you can, into your stance, and have a person put his fist on your chest and have him push out with his fist in an upward and forward motion. Then write back and tell me what happens.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Then again the laws of physic says that your statement is not right. One vector far as sinking, cannot defeat two vectors of one motion, upwards and forwards. Just sink as much as you can and as low as you can, into your stance, and have a person put his fist on your chest and have him push out with his fist in an upward and forward motion. Then write back and tell me what happens.

Which 'Law' of physics says that my statement is not true?:rolleyes:

Two vectors, sinking and forwards matches two vectors of upwards and forwards....who wins???

As for your 'test', try pushing upwards and forwards against someone sinking and going forwards. Then write back and tell me what happens.:eek:

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Did you try the demo, no you didn’t, you said using sinking energies, and the force that you are talking about still won’t work. Give it a try; why won’t you do that.:D

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Sinking is a vertical vector up and down. Therefore can’t stand against such energies as tranciprical energy: forward upward circler energies, which all happens in one motion, like a buzz saw or energy that you get from pedaling a bike. The only time that it can, in some cases if the vertical vector line is very short, like a fire plunge that you see on a street, but even still, I have seen what a car can do to that. If you use your legs, which you said earlier, I’m sure the forward energy that you are taking about is coming from the back leg support, which is fine. Now that the back leg is supporting you, when tranciprical energy is applied the correct way the forward energy that you talked about, will easily turn into a vertical vector, because it is part of your original vertical vector structure (sinking, downward energy). And if you are leaning forward with your body that is very bad, caues then I just can good soft and you will fall right on my offensive structure. When if the tranciprical energy gets there first, the vertical vector can never regroup unless it is very soft, therefore can never stand, against tranciprical energies in application Far as body on body mechanics or laws of physic dealing with the human body structure.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

And as for your test, I was still able too make him fly backwards.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Far as body on body mechanics or laws of physic dealing with the human body structure. The thighs, shanks and feet add up to 42% of the human body weight (adults). Therefore with a vertical vector against an application it will seem even lighter. Too simply make your theory work, it will need more lateral vectors.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[mexenergy]

My sun character punch is powered through my legs rooting, my knees and elbows functioning together as one unit. It's not my arms your feeling, it's my legs. My sun punch without the rooting isn't much,but with, it's more powerful especially when stepping and adding momentum to my 160lb frame. I then hit with my whole body into it, again, not just my arm but helped out through my legs rooting. I'm learning to connect my whole body as I follow through.

[mexenergy]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
[\Two vectors, sinking and forwards matches two vectors of upwards and forwards....who wins???

As for your 'test', try pushing upwards and forwards against someone sinking and going forwards. Then write back and tell me what happens.:eek: [/B]



I agree with Amanujry here. Of course, what ALi said may be true also. If you sinking in your stance, and somebody pushes you hard in the middle of the chest, you'll fall over. The horse stance isn't built that way. But...using chum kui to chum and go forward is different. If someone is trying to push me upwards and forwards, then I change the angle slightly and keep coming forward. Thus the opponent is uprooted and then it's my game. My center of gravity is now beneath my opponents so it's almost like I'm a shovel and he's the dirt trying to push up and forward. If you're sensitive, you'll be able to feel the energy going up and forward. My energy is going down & forward. The up energy loses in my opinion and over commits.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Still won’t work, because of the original structure is based on a vertical vector (sinking). He would need more lateral vectors too keep him standing, energies that would pull the top part of his vertical vector forward, too = the bottom force that he is using (aka. the back leg).
If he can pull that theory off, then his torso should only be half of its original size. Or he is leaning forward way too far.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[mexenergy]

Leaning forward? You're right if he's leaning forward. What if he's not leaning but using forward intent/energy. I wanted to ask you something Ali. On your Chi Sau Comp clip you posted, was that Carl Decheirra you were talking to. I thought it looked like him

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

True wing chun shows no intent. for it will only give your intentions away. Giving your opponent time too counter or block your fighting structure. yes that was Carl.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Carl was my cut man, who saw every thing about everybody, and we worked strategies upon their skills (the other fighter) Carl is top class wing chun, he is very good, and a wonderful teacher.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I hate too sound or come on like a one big complement, but truth will never be shown as a lie. Carl is a nother person people should stay away from when it come too a fight. he can hurt you realy fast and real clean. and just about all of his students can fight. They seem too get good realy fast.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)