How to study or create your style?

[SPJ]

There are 2 factors to consider in design of your style or method of fighting, timing and space.

The space is shared in a lot of external Wai Jia Quan. The timing becomes critical who arrives first and hits first may win. Then the strategy is to be fast and powerful and guarding the center gate Chun Men.

On the other hand, the real estate is not shared in Nei Jia Quan. The steps and positioning become the main focus of the game. The timing is still important. But there are more utilizations of unused space from Wai Jia.

How you want to place yourself relative to the opponent determines your steps. Your positioning then decides your posture and then your body mechanics. Strikes, grappling, and throws are then designed. And not the other way around.

A lot of people study MA the other way. They focus on techniques (end product) in the first place. Then they study where to put their steps and so forth. They are learning the surface. What if something is missing, they may not proceed with the rest of the techniques. That is really upside down. They eventually frustrated and resort back to the simple moves.

I was told to study the theory first and drill some basic moves. The rest was up to me.

Most people focus on memorizing and collecting routines and find difficulties in apps in fight. Because they are picturing and finding all the pre-conditions in actual fight to do their moves and frustrated.

Some theories of the space utilization in design of Nei Jia Quan.

Ba Gua the basic steps are Bai Bu and Kou Bu. You may change directions of your facing with these 2 steps. You free up 360 degree around yourself. You may walk along 360 degree around the opponent and always facing the opponent. You may go to any area of the opponent and start your techniques. In order to face the opponent all the time, you have to practice to rotate your waist in a bigger angle than usual and be comfortable in it, thus the posture is created. Space->steps, Position -> posture.

Once the space factor is determined, the hand, foot movements and body mechanics are determined to perform the techniques.

Body mechanics is another big area in Nei Jia Quan. Ba Gua focus on spiralling along the spine (Ruo Xuan Jin), along the arms and wrists. This determines the power generation from upspiralling the previously sprung from the waist, back, shoulder, arms then the palm (Zhang).

When in fight, you do the other way from how you develop or create your style or move. When you want your palm in a certain space or spot, the rest of your body follows.

Tai Ji A circle around you. A ball around you. The space is to create a lot of circles from the wrist, down to your feet. The opponent's Jin or moves are dealt with circularly in 3D. The space is a circle and a ball. The waist is your center actually the Dan Tien. Your arms and feet form the surface of the ball. Again the space is the first determining factor in design of Tai Ji. All these space of sphere are filled with Tai Ji moves. Any external Wai Jia uses all these spherical space or not.

Xing Yi space is all of the opponent's frontal property. Top down is Pi. The left and right is Heng. The front is Beng and Pao. The bottom up is Zhuan. All these start with San Ti Shi posture. Use the whole body to generate the power.

To create your style, mimicing Daoist theory or animals or whatever. I was taught to think about the space real estate first, how you gain or cover grounds. The positioning puts you in advantage to defeat the opponent, while he or she is not able to attack back effectively at the moment. Position then determines your steps to get there, your posture and body mechanic then take over.

How do you study your school of MA?

Do you focus on theory at all or just drill the moves or the techniques?

[Buddy]

Why not just study a system someone smarter than you already devised?

[unixfudotnet]

and has been refined and refined for hundreds of years.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

This is from my notes in the late "70.

It is submitted to IKF and may or may not be part of the book I am writing this year.

[shrub]

Beleted.

[SPJ]

Thank you for your comment.

:)

[Brad]

*deleted because the post my comment was responding to has been edited*

[Brad]

Not you SPJ :p

[SPJ]

Cool.

:)

[canglong]

SPJ,
This all sounds interesting but could you give a little more detail and clarity to the terms space and real estate.

[SPJ]

Theory and practice of CMA.

Most people study only the practice. And not a lot of people study the theory or principles unfortunately.

I started the first post as a general lead to how one may study the theory and practice of CMA or even create new moves or practices based on principles or theory.

Tai Ji Quan theory is around a long time. Some said since Zhang San Feng. Chen Wang Ting's Chen Tai Ji is a practice. Theory preceded the practice long and long time ago.

If we study some practices or moves, we may be able to reverse engineered them to the principles. And based on the principles in the practices (moves and postures), we may extrapolate and derive more practices or moves.

The study of the theory and the practice of the moves and postures, Jin generations etc should come hand in hand.

Liu Yun Qiao is very famous in Taiwan and started Wu Tan in the '70".

He said that if we do not apply the theory into the practice/moves, we are practicing dumb martial arts. Or being Ben.

[SPJ]

Space is around you and around the opponent.

Real estate is the protected areas by one's arms and legs.

I use them as a general term.

There are overlapping areas in definitions.

[canglong]

When something has been refined to make it precise and defined as most efficient then naturally even if we differ in ideology we can not differ in practice or in other words when we set out to "design" our own system inevitably it may look like others because since we are both human when we achieve the diresed result it will look the same because although there can be more than one method only one could ever be considered "most" efficient in human application the true focus of any martial endeavor.

In terms of space and real estate as you put it Shaolin has already defined these for us and their definition is considered to be most efficient. Six Gate theory of "real estate" a high reference point a middle reference point a low reference point divided by a center line simple and efficient.
Most people focus on memorizing and collecting routines and find difficulties in apps in fight. Because they are picturing and finding all the pre-conditions in actual fight to do their moves and frustrated. In Shaolin terms this would be considered fau kiu or unaware.

I was told to study the theory first and drill some basic moves. The rest was up to me. To understand the six gate theory it to truly be self aware and in Shaolin terms considered weng kiu hence the term weng chun later changed to wing chun....and when you master these six gates and become weng kiu (self aware) no one enters or leaves these six gates under any circumstance or condition unaware to you .

Sure we can all "design" our own systems and call them anything we desire but the end result has already been determined for all humans as defined by the term most efficient using the theory of six gates as the foundation all roads lead to Shaolin in my opinion.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Guarding the gates are protecting your real estate and vital areas.

We may all work the same way regardless of what we call them.

Space however is a different story.

For example, in Tai Ji, you may show your center gate wide open. The opponent approaches you. You move back, to the left or the right. You close your gate by moving away and not guarding with your arms or legs.

At the same time, you move into a position that is more advantageous to you.

When you punch and kick face to face, the opponent and you are in the shared space or both your real estates overlap.

In Nei Jia Quan, in Tai Ji for example, if you lui the opponent, you start with your left, your front and then your right 180 degree over all. You are angled 40 to 60 degree to the side of the opponent. Your front is facing the opponent from the beginning to the end by rotating your waist.

To the opponent, he started the punch in one direction and was extended and fell to the same general direction. You somehow rolled to his side like a ball.

[canglong]

SPACE - is one component of reality the others are time and energy. From Shaolin we learn saam dim yat sin dihng sahn and ngh douh luk muhn fa kihn kwan three points one line establish the original nature and five ways and six gates, influence the universe. The shaolin concepts of six gates and five lines establishes the true nature of time, space and energy as such that real estate is accounted for space is accounted for time is accounted for and proper knowledge and use of energy is accounted for self aware weng kiu is knowledge grounded in reality. This teaching goes beyond martial endeavors and is applicable to all aspects of ones life.
When you punch and kick face to face, the opponent and you are in the shared space or both your real estates overlap. When you have mastered your own six gates you can then face the reality of sharing space with others.

[SPJ]

Excellent post.

Outstanding!

:)

[Buddy]

I don't find this particularly profound. Good, yes but every sophisticated system has this concept.

"using the theory of six gates as the foundation all roads lead to Shaolin in my opinion."

Nonsense. Waijia has a completely different body method than neijia.

[canglong]

Nonsense. Waijia has a completely different body method than neijia. Buddy,
would you elaborate on the those differences as you see them and the method and theories behind each.

[Buddy]

Tony,
I could but its more typing than I am interested in. And in the past when I have explained it externalists they just insist, "Yeah, my style has that, too." Maybe someone else here with greater patience than I will give it a shot. Walter, Mo-ling?

[Walter Joyce]

Over the last 24 - 26 years I've trained in merthods that range from the hard external styles across to the soft internal. I question whether you will ever understand the differnces in training methods unless you have a similar experience, i.e. after once being trained in external methods then actually take the time to grasp and then train the internal approach.

Try explaining the taste of choclate to someone who has never eaten it.

The similarities in words being used in martial arts in general leads to confusion.

I'm gonna paste something I already wrote to save some time:

"many arts have similar reminders about whole body power and moving from the center, but that the question that separates the chinese internals is how you achieve those goals.

The specific qigong and neigong exercises associated with the chinese internals develop a sense of connectivity that is one of the foundations, the use of the dantien is another, and the specific methods of the big three (xing I, taiji, and ba gua) are what give the special flavor, or characteristics of the power generation of each."

So to expand on this, even within the neija arts, there are different qigong and neigong methods that develop the charcteristics jins of each. The qigong and neigong help to develop what Sigmman refers to as a body suit. A bit of research will lead you to the ideas connected to the fascia or connective tissue in the body and the ability to use this soft tissue, as a means of instigating movement, and developing whole body power in a neijia sense.

If you look at an anatomy chart, the muscles from the lower body and upper body both are connected to the dan tien region. If you have ever done any butchering (I have) you'll know what I mean about fascia, or connective tissue. It connects EVERYTHING, running over, around and through all soft tissue and connecting and running across all the bones and joints. There has also been a fair amount of research done in its purposes both connected with Rolfing and also in sports medicine. Look around and read it.

To continue with the earlier post:

"An intellectual understanding will only go so far, it is the actual practice that will give you the understanding.


As an aside, after years of training in a variety of disciplines, my advice is to ignore the external similarities of movement. There are only so many ways the human body can move as discernible by the eye (even the trained eye) and fighting arts in general share similar external movements.

What separates the diffferent arts for the most part, is how they develop power, and the startegies they apply in fighting. While there may be some overlap, there are specific practices, many of which are rejected by some as having nothing to do with fighting, that will develop the power that is the hallmark of internalists. It has to be felt, but once you have the differnce becomes amazingly clear." end quote


The other important aspect is standing and postural alignment. Through proper standing methods and the necessary "active or alive relaxation" that goes with it, your postural alignment, coupled with your ability to transfer the force of the ground through your body (which is also dependent upon the "bodysuit" or fascia training developed through the neigong) establishes a very different means of generating relaxed, or effortless power.

None of this may make sense to you unless you have also done a fair amount of research into the literature and also done a fair amount of training with a legitimate teacher.

After over twenty years of thoughtful training in "waijia" it took me two years to comprehend, in a physical sense, the fundamental differences between the training methods. It took another three to really get my head around it so that I MIGHT be able to explain it, IF you keep an open mind.

My suggestions? Read Peter Ralston's works, he offers the clearest explanations I've read.

Find a good teacher and train. Any martial art is a multiple variable undertaking, and the internals are counter-intuitive in method. And like I said, confusion in terminology is rampant. Also, I haven't the time or the inclination to offer mush more detail than I already have, because its not good for anyone to be spoonfed.


So tell me, what does chocolate taste like to you?



:cool:

p.s. I posted much of this out of respect for Buddy's request, he was my first neijia teacher and don't let him fool you, he can be very patient if he thinks its worth it.

[canglong]

originally posted by SPJ
How to study or create your style? In particular the root of the question has since progressed into using the 3 constant components of any style (time space and energy) what are the methods for training them and how do you then use and manipulate them in your current system or a system you might have created. Thank you Walter for answering but I did not find your post particularly helpful in answering these questions.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by canglong
Buddy,
would you elaborate on the those differences as you see them and the method and theories behind each.

THAT was the question I was answering.

[SPJ]

WJ;

Good post on:

1) Qi Gong, Neigong. Qi or energy related cultivation methods are different even in Nei Jia let alone in Wai Jia.

2) Use of the whole body to generate different Jin's. Nei Jia produces more diverse Jin's than Wai Jia.
Use Yi (will) to guide the Qi (energy). Use Qi to produce Jin.


3) postures.

4) body alignment other than just focusing on the center line as in Wai Jia.
Tai Ji is a ball in 3-D.
Ba Gua is spiraling 360 degree around yourself and the opponent.
Xing Yi dominates the front half circular sphere of the opponent.
"Space" related.

Body alignment to generate a whole body Jin (Zhen Jin) in Nei Jia and not just accerelating only fist or foot to produce focal Jin as in Wai Jia.


5) Theory of body suit.

Cheers.

:)

[Buddy]

"In particular the root of the question has since progressed into using the 3 constant components of any style (time space and energy) what are the methods for training them and how do you then use and manipulate them in your current system or a system you might have created. Thank you Walter for answering but I did not find your post particularly helpful in answering these questions."

How unfortunate for you that you did not like the answer, as it was exactly what you asked for, the difference. Your idea of time, space, and energy is one of nebulous content and does not at all address any issue of what makes a "style". As I said what differentiates neijia and waijia is one of body method. As you have decided that answer does not suit you, suit yourself.

[canglong]

the method and theories behind each. If I misunderstood your first post Walter would you be kind enough to reword it or if you are in agreement with or would care to add to SPJ's post please do so.

[Walter Joyce]

canglong,

Its not a question of misunderstanding what I wrote as much as the ability to comprehend what I wrote. Whether it was my writing, or your willingness to accept and ability to understand that created this situation is not clear to me.

What I wrote was somewhat vague because of:

(a) the nature of the topic (the difference between waijia and neijia training methods, to be clear),

(b) a deliberate limit on what I posted for several reasons, and

(c) a need for experience in both methods to remove some of the vagary.

I agree with most of what SPJ posted regarding his summary of my first post, except for his characterizations of the three internals. I shy away from brief descrptions of most things, but especially neijia arts. Brief descriptions are as hindering as they are helpful, perhaps more so.

To clearly state my view:

(1) Waijia and neijia methods differ in principle and theories of how to generate power.

(2) Even among the neijia arts the methods of body training and strategy for fighting differ among the big three, although they share some commonalities.

(3) Many of the training methods that develop power in neijia seem to have no direct link to fighting applications, and center on focusing the mind to develop the body in postural alignment, state of being, and the ability to access neural paths in the body that generally are not directly accessed in waijia training.

To have the best shot at understanding my views, reread the first post then this post, and do your homework. Neijia arts are like advanced math, they require a certain foundation.

Peace

[David Jamieson]

Hey this is a good topic.

I have a couple of comments though. I personally do not make distinctions between external and internal for the simple reason that those distinctions are so subtle at the upper level of skill that they are not worth mentioning really.

Proficient martial artists are proficient regardless of the art they choose to study or use for applicable combat. Combat is combat and one cannot presuppose the outcome based on who studies what.

A couple of comments in my point of view on these quotes:


To clearly state my view:

(1) Waijia and neijia methods differ in principle and theories of how to generate power. I disagree. If there is one commanality to us all it is the actual physics of being human. Regarding "power(s)",short, long, falling, elemental, mental, energetic, enervation etc etc. These are all roads to the same place and that is optimal expression of "YOUR" power. Alignment and structure are important in any art that is worthy of being called a martial art.


(2) Even among the neijia arts the methods of body training and strategy for fighting differ among the big three, althought they share some commonalities. Many of these so called internal arts share a lot with so called external arts as well as sharing with each other. Again, it is about the correct and optimal use of the human shape and expression comes from that first and foremost imo.


(3) Many of the traning methods that develop power in neijia seem to have no direct link to fighting applications, and center on focusing the mind to develop the body in postural alignment, state of being, and the ability to access neural paths in the body that generally are not directly accessed in waijia training. This is not true. Singular focus from a mental standpoint is important in all fighting arts. Neija do not have necessarily the best proprietary info on this matter.


To have the best shot at understanding my views, reread the first post then this post, and do your homework. Neijia arts are like advanced math, they require a certain foundation.

This comment is biased and elitist and also not true. :p (really)

There are many from any style you choose that can kick ass, can get their ass kicked or come to a draw.

These distinctions between neija and weija and holding fast to them only convolutes the real message of martial arts practice which in my opinion is ultimately to come to a full understanding of who you yourself are. The arts can help this completely. The more knowledge you are exposed to and the more diligent your practice, the less relevant these washable dissapearing lines of division become.

cheers

[Buddy]

"I personally do not make distinctions between external and internal for the simple reason that those distinctions are so subtle at the upper level of skill that they are not worth mentioning really."

That you do not make the distinctions does not mean they don't exist.

"Proficient martial artists are proficient regardless of the art they choose to study or use for applicable combat. Combat is combat and one cannot presuppose the outcome based on who studies what."

And yet this has nothing to do with training body methods.

"If there is one commanality to us all it is the actual physics of being human. Regarding "power(s)",short, long, falling, elemental, mental, energetic, enervation etc etc. These are all roads to the same place and that is optimal expression of "YOUR" power. Alignment and structure are important in any art that is worthy of being called a martial art."

And yet the way power is developed and used in the IMA is different. Alignment and structure are only the beginning.

"Many of these so called internal arts share a lot with so called external arts as well as sharing with each other. Again, it is about the correct and optimal use of the human shape and expression comes from that first and foremost imo."

Well, of course. There are so many ways to punch. But how you develop and deliver the power is different.

"This comment is biased and elitist and also not true."

You say this because you have not been exposed to the principles being discussed. It's not in Siu Lum. I studied with a great master of Hung Gar Fu Hok. His skill, while immense was different than my bagua teachers.

"These distinctions between neija and weija and holding fast to them only convolutes the real message of martial arts practice which in my opinion is ultimately to come to a full understanding of who you yourself are."

While martial arts can be used as vehicles for self discovery, it is NOT their primary function.

[Walter Joyce]

Kung Lek

Thanks for the response.

I disagree with your conclusions and your assertions about "truth" and "elitism."

I also wonder how much time you took to digest what was written before you critiqued it as some of your comments seemed to ignore what I wrote in some instances and in other instances you assumed conclusions that were not implied.

Buddy, thank you for your support.

[David Jamieson]

Walter-

I did read and I won't take offense to your comments. Because you see something in a particular light, has no bearing on how it really is.

The same goes for me. My point is is that the distinctions and differences are far less than many people would "like" them to be.

Many, many people like to think and are comfortable in thinking that they are getting something special, and they are I guess, but in reality, it is not "THAT" special in the big picture.

Buddy, I am not exclusive to Sil Lum training, or as I prefer to call it Shaolin, seeing as people just get confused with nonsense cantonese romanizations that make them think it is something different when it is not. (this is a hint at my intent)

Power generation is power generation period. Forces are brought to bear in several different ways dpending on the forces one wants to express. An internal punch is no stronger or harder than a properly aligned punch with a firm grounding and correct alignment supporting the structure. There is no "extra" or "secret" energies at play, they are always extant, by only accessible through correct methodological training in the practitioner.

I personally do not make the distinction between internal/external at higher levels because it simply does not exist. There is no better. Better is fleeting and temporary and entirely dependent on a single person not on an art as a whole. I have seen more people doing Tai Chi in what you guys would deem and external frame and I have seen just as many people perform so called external hard Kungfu in an internal frame.

every single tai chi beginner with almost no exception physically struggles with structure. The same is true of Kungfu or karate. Stiif and rigid are the early on practitioners regardless of the chosen art.

Over time and with effort, the energies and forces change, more concepts are learned and absorbed and ultimately, the end results are the same with diligent practice.

Perhaps you have a preference, I do not. I enjoy qigong practice, Tai Chi, circle walking and as well i enjoy rough and tumble when the opportunity presents itself.

I would also note that the so called externalist who you seem to be inferring have inferior power generation and development more often than not overpower and dominate the so called internalists in open mat confrontation. Go figure!

Don't think your grannys pie is better than my grannies pie. Maybe it will be at this state fairt but my granny always gets my blue ribbon even if i still like the taste of other pies. :p

inside outward or outward to inside, what is the difference in the end if the road is straight not straight?

cheers

[canglong]

Well, of course. There are so many ways to punch. But how you develop and deliver the power is different. Buddy, both you and Walter seem to imply that by merely using the word different makes your answer valid or beyond the need of explaination because you both perceive others as "externalist" or unqualified to understand the answers. I have to agree with Kung Lek in that if you find someone you consider an exceptional martial artist it would be rare that he/she would not have extensive command of both internal and external methods and theories and if you say different naturally people will want to know how you define different or how discernibly different the methods and theories in question are.
You say this because you have not been exposed to the principles being discussed. It's not in Siu Lum. I studied with a great master of Hung Gar Fu Hok. His skill, while immense was different than my bagua teachers. How does this one expereince qualify you to presuppose the level of experience or exposure for others or the working of all Siu Lum art when in fact you reference skill and not genreation of power or method or theory behind it.

[Walter Joyce]

I did not say that internal mechanics generate a "better" power, but I am saying it is different.

I did not say that internal arts are superior, only different.

I do not agree that internal and external methods blend into one at some point: they don't.

Saying that they are the same or that one is better than the other is like saying that oil painting is the same as watercolors, or that impressionism is better than realism.

The disciplines are the same in that they are all fighting arts or all painting, but to say that an oil painter uses the same paints as someone who works in water colors, or that at some point an oil painter becomes a water colorist is as false as saying that the means of generating power are the same in waijia and neijia and that eventually the external method becomes the same as the internal method.

I have as much respect for someone who has mastered an external art as for someone who has mastered an internal, but I recognize the difference. I have worked with masters of both arts and while the level of effectiveness may be the same the feeling I was left with after being hit differs with the method of training.

To take it even further, while I have felt distinct differences among extrnal fighters power and its effects on me after being hit based on individual body types and training methods, I have never felt the pulsing or wave like power from an externalist like I have from ba gua or tai ji masters.

If someone is using the physical alignments of neijia in an external form (btw this is not something I am unfamiliar with) and has established the neural connections through neigong, then he is doing an internal art. As I have said many times before, don't look to what you see on the outside, a punch will almost always look like a punch. Look to the results.

I also never said that waijia doesn't use qigong, or the mind to direct the body. I said that the TYPES of qigong, and neigong used in neijia are different and that the neural pathways one builds in neijia are different, and even these differ among the different neijia styles.

Are there commonalities between neijia and waijia? Of course, they are both physical training methods used to develop skill in fighting. But there are differnces. Its that simple.

I hesitate to post about the differnces because too often people imply meaning where none was, and it becomes a ****ing contest. Train how you want to train, I do. But when you ask for someone to explain the differnces between two related yet differnt things don't draw conclusions where none have been reached.

And one last thing. saying that calculus requires an understanding in basic math first is not an elitist statement, it is a fact. If you don't know trigonometry or geometry or algebra you will never fully understand calculus.

In the same way, if you don't know what a punch, a kick, a block, a trap, a throw, a lock or the other basics of fighting are, you will never undertsand the neijia arts completely.

Understanding prerquisites is not elitist, its just common sense.

Peace

[David Jamieson]

yes, i agree, a strong foundation is a pre-req for getting good in any chosen field of study. IN this case martial arts.

But let's take Sil Lum as the example seeing as it's already on the table. In sil lum, there is so called internal development involved even at the early stages. In my experience, the first year to year and a half was consumed with focus on the Ba Duan Jin, Zhang Zhong, Static stance training, Breath work and structural correction to facilitate power generation.

Later comes nei gong, which is internal power development by definition and it deals with emotional content in context to correct structure and alignment. The concepts and principles are pretty exact matches.

Now i understand where someone might look at a so called art and only see what they see. We can't see" internal" but when we learn some, we can see it expressed. And we see it expressed by both so called internalists and externalists.

fwiw, i do not consider nei ja to be a higher manifestation of those skills learned in wei ja. They are the same road, different lanes. Everyone has different teaching method, many nei ja teachers teach wei ja first which is a statement that one cannot function with out the other. Many wei ja arts have elements of nei ja or completely shift focus to a combination of both. It is necessary I think to have both to have proficiency. I don't feel one path is all that different in the end once the practitioner understands their own limitations and capabilities. From taht point, in either camp, it is a matter of refinement through time and practice.

cheers

[Buddy]

I'm glad I didn't waste any time on the explanation. This is what externalists always say. As Walter said, he's (and I've) done both. They're different. That you don't think so is fine with me.

[Walter Joyce]

As they say, ignorance is bliss.

I wonder ignorance becomes when you wrap it in the cloak of "greater" or "deeper" understanding?

Bull$hit?

Why am I left with the feeling that in almost any other discipline practitioners wouldn't strive so hard to make everything the same, when it is not, while in MA all paths bcome one, so no ones feelings get hurt.

This stuff isn't rocket science and its not mystical mumb0 jumbo, its a physical discipline.


Drop the philosophy and just look at the mechanics... they are not the same.

And if someone has taught you the same mechanics for both methods, then you've been mislead.

Training methods in waijia and neijia are different, its that simple.

The only conclusion I can draw when people insist they are the same is that they haven't been exposed to the real deal, just someone telling them what they want to hear.

And one other thing I'm curious about, why is it that its always the waijia people that insist there is no difference?

Is it some kind of training envy or what?

No wonder Sigman doesn't bother posting anymore.

You know what they say, the last thing people want is the truth, it might get in the way of their pre-conceived notions.

Rant over?

For now.

I'm just reminded why I stopped posting for so long.

Peace Out.






:cool:

[canglong]

This stuff isn't rocket science and its not mystical mumb0 jumbo, its a physical discipline.

Training methods in waijia and neijia are different, its that simple. It would appear that asking how and why is not as simple.

[Mo Ling]

fear of being inferior creates the need to assert sameness.
Erase any possible difference between one's own practice and the scary unknown practice so there is no chance (among the ignorant) that there is anythhing different (therefore possibly superior) in the unknown which == safety-comfort.

This thought process is a gift as it lets you know you are human, the agitation that creates the faulty reasoning based on the premise of determined ignorance is a function of ego.

Without knowing everything it is impossible to state that everything is the same.
Let go of fear and logic is easy.

Internal and External """ ARE different, but if you are worried enough to argue about it, it just means you dont know enough about both and dont want to. There is nothing wrong with fear and ego protection, except that is produces ignorance.

Good luck.

M

www.taijigongfu.com

[canglong]

Without knowing everything it is impossible to state that everything is not the same.

Mo Ling,
Good luck to you, your Sifu, your discipleship and your gungfu family.

[Mo Ling]

Thanks for your well wishes.

"Without knowing everything it is impossible to state that everything is NOT the same"

In fact this is not accurate. In this universe, one would be real hard pressed to find ANY two things that are actually the same. In fact without knowing very much one can say with certainty that most things are not the same...

but you were not trying to be clever by turning a specific statement about gongfu into a general philosophical statement that you could twist were you? This is about gongfu, not far removed philosophy.


If you are comparing two things to see difference or likeness, having educated knowledge of both is reccomended. People who dont believe there is a difference always seem to be "external" practitioners who have never had any decent exposure to "internal' arts. This does not happen in reverse and mostly "internal" practitioners dont care one way or the other, because they have seen them both. It is very unusual that internal practitioners have not been through some external arts.

Good luck.

M

www.taijigongfu.com

[canglong]

but you were not trying to be clever by turning a specific statement about gongfu into a general philosophical statement that you could twist were you? This is about gongfu, not far removed philosophy. Reading your statement I began to think of Tao which states in there is Tao and thus everything else is derived of it as such then it is quite possible that everything is the same.
Was your previous post about gung fu?

You are very welcome and please pass on my best wishes to your Sifu.

[canglong]

I started the first post as a general lead to how one may study the theory and practice of CMA or even create new moves or practices based on principles or theory. -- SPJ
Your idea of time, space, and energy is one of nebulous content and does not at all address any issue of what makes a "style". -- Buddy Saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn Three points one line, establish the Original Nature. Ngh douh luhk muhn fa kihn kwan Five Ways and Six Gates, Influence the Universe

The Shaolin six gates theory is based on science and moves one beyond "style" to a point of definitive self awareness.

Saam dim yat sin (three points, one line) directs the student to an understanding of the principle of gravity (centerline, one line) the principles of shape (the triangle) and the principles of mobility and stability. This understanding addresses both vertical and horizontal elements and is applicable to both internal and external practice. Externally, it is the foundation for correct body alignment for penetration into the space of another. Internally it is the foundation for correct body alignment for cultivating qi, jing and shen.

Ng dou luk mun is the five ways and six gates. Referencing the five line concept, undertaking the study of horizontal structure Shoulder line, yang, nipple line, yin, centerline,one line, yang, nipple line, yin and shoulder line, yang. Six gates are established by combining three reference points high point above the lip below the nose, middle point solar plexus, and low point the low dan tien with the 5 line concept and combined with jong sau and wu sau concepts of 2 lines of defense depth is established along with the horizontal and the vertical boundaries. This establishes the Shaolin method to address battlefield TIME (depth) plus SPACE the vertical + the horizontal. ENERGY the final element of reality is brought to light in the Shaolin study of Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng five combat methods of facing and chasing combined with the study of the Wu Xing five states of change.

All of this is based on an awareness of physics and human physiology. The Shaolin methods have removed style in favor of science. This is not different, better or nebulous it merely is.

[Buddy]

But these ideas are inherent in several martial ways from diverse cultures. It doesn't address the difference of body method. In addition your use of the terms time, space, and energy do not follow any scientific norm. Time is NOT depth, space is NOT horizontal and vertical but rather combine with depth to show the three dimensions with which everyone is familiar. And to say energy is to open a whole nother can o'worms.

[canglong]

Buddy,
Could you explain "body method" as you understand it.

Time is NOT depth, space is NOT horizontal and vertical but rather combine with depth to show the three dimensions with which everyone is familiar. -- Buddy You use the word combine.

to address battlefield TIME (depth) plus SPACE the vertical + the horizontal. My use of plus and + was an attempt to indicate a combination of the 3 but yes you are correct to understand battlefield Time is to understand the combination of the five line concept the three reference points and two lines of defense begining with 5 consistant lines of human skeletal structure. This is not exclusive to Shaolin but does not predate Shaolin.

[Buddy]

"Could you explain "body method" as you understand it."

No, sorry. It's not my intent to convice you. Clearly you have a preconcieved idea of what I mean and you will only respond by saying, "We do it too." You don't. I've been down this road too many times for it to be worth my while.

"My use of plus and + was an attempt to indicate a combination of the 3 but yes you are correct to understand battlefield Time is to understand the combination of the five line concept the three reference points and two lines of defense begining with 5 consistant lines of human skeletal structure. This is not exclusive to Shaolin but does not predate Shaolin."

Look, I understand your point but it is not what I am talking about. You have used these words incorrectly. Time has nothing to do with lines, angles, or human structure. None of this has to do with what makes Shaolin different from IMA. You obviously like your pet theory and that's fine with me. My suggestion is that you don't bother researching IMA with a qualified instructor. You already know it. <g>

[SPJ]

CL;

Thank you for interesting posts on Shaolin theory.

I have some ideas on what you are talking about.

But I do not know enough to comment.

My teachers are mostly from Northern China.

I was exposed to Chen Tai Ji, Cheng's Ba Gua, Shan Xi Pai Xing Yi, Liu He Mantis, Ba Ji/Pi Gua, Tong Bei Quan etc.

Cheers.

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

To the internalists. :p

I have studied and do study both the internal and external aspects of martial arts. I will use these definitions as tehy are seemingly inescapable in context to this thread.

I notice that the term "inferior" has been used, as well as inferences of doubt etc etc. I wonder about that.

However, I would like to note that no one has offered solid and tangible differences by comparison as to how "internal" differs so greatly from "external".

I think that if you are going to make disparaging remarks about those who seem them both as the same path ultimately then it behooves you to outline the differences and then get feedback about why or why not they are different.

Using different words is semantics. Using an argument that is based on partial facts in order to establish a point is sophism please avoid these. :p

Here is what I know:

In Sil Lum, Power is "borrowed". Or, your structure and the function of that structure is dependent upon the platform and energies you are in. Is it cold, it is warm, is the ground solid is the ground soft, etc. These are all factors in the generation of power and the issuance of power.

When I say borrowed, I mean it in a true physical sense. One braces themselves to the ground and in so doing is borrowing the earth energy to magnify their issuance of power. Warm air will effect and affect your bodies ability and inability. This energy can be capatilized upon as well.

There are several other examples of this idea as well.

Using the back/spine and waist as the method of creating momentum in the limbs is another example. The ideas of kicking with the flexor vs kicking with the knee joint, the powers involved and the time to use either technique in context to the situation you are in. To do it without thinking, to have to think strategically while in motion, without thinking.

Chi Flow, it's constancy and prevalence, being able to issue power with the same amount of energy used as when you walk. For instance, when people learn a form, they are generally stiff and rigid at first until they completely internalize that form. that is to say the sequence, the techniques and where to put the oomph in a technique to make it optimal. This concept is same same, internal or external regardless of the language used.

Internalists and externalists alike must make contact with their opponent to cause damage. there is no escaping this fact.

The human anatomical structure demands the use of similar principles and same structures for optimum delivery of technique. This fact is inescapable as well. An internal stylist certainly is not straighter in the back than an so called externalist. And so, I see them both as same means to same end when practice is diligent.

If people dwell on teh specialness of one over another, or feels there is a huge difference in the objectives andgoals of a fighting art internal or external, then it is likely that in some way they either have been sold a bill of goods or they are not listening to their teacher.

I have had occaision to speak with more than one master about this, and there is a general agreeance that all roads lead to rome in regards to this. Of course at novice and intermediate levels, there are huge and glaring differences in method and final expression, but ultimately, it is untrue that they are forever seperate and different.

They are not.

[SPJ]

Agreed to a certain degree.

Yes, we only have the same human body.

The emphasis and cultivation are different.

True, there is a point of contact.

There is a delivery of Jin to effect the opponent.

However, there are a lot of differences to make them different enough.

Whatever works works.

Inferior is only relative in context.

How different?

It will be indeed difficult to describe all.


:D

[David Jamieson]

and what of these concepts;

absorption

evasion

deflection

stopping/intercepting

driving through

small point strike (eg:heel vs flat of foot or phoenix eye strike vs full fist)

large point strike (eg:flat of foot vs heel and palm vs fist strike)

long power, short power (time not space)

falling power

rising power

spiral energy

vertical energy

grounding/rooting

bone alignment

tendon/muscle, strengthen lengthen

breath in when drawing, breath out when expelling

these are concepts that belong to Hsing I, Taiji, Bagua as well as Sil Lum and other so called external arts.

The internalization of an art form as a physical expression takes a while and a bit of practice regardless of which path you walk, but you will be exposed to all these concepts and many more that are shared.

Think of a candle with two ends. Which end of teh candle you decide to light is up to you, but ultimately, there will be light for the duration of the existance of the candle and when it is gone, it is gone.

[Buddy]

I thought about replying to kung lek but it's pointless. I'm fine with you believing what you believe. I have no stake in your development. I have students who were high and low ranking black belts in other quite fluid styles. I have students who studied Filipino, Burmese, Japanese, and Chinese martial arts. All agree the method they now use is different. I have a stake in their development and so have been quite clear how these methods are trained. BTW I never used the word inferior, although I do believe it to be true. But it may only be true for me and mine. If you are happy with your training, great.

[Walter Joyce]

:cool:

[SPJ]

Here is a link to some good readings.

http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.SearchID=NeijiaFAQ

[canglong]

Kung Lek,
Very informative post, thank you for sharing your teachings and your thoughts.

SPJ,
Thanks for the link very interesting web site.


Look, I understand your point but it is not what I am talking about. You have used these words incorrectly. Time has nothing to do with lines, angles, or human structure. -Buddy Battlefield - Horizontal lines Shoulder to shoulder Vertical lines high Tan Jung, middle Yan Jung, and low Daan tien, reference points and extending from the center of the body to the tip of the striking point of the jong sau. Battlefield Time - is either gained by proper use of the jong sau to move incoming weapons to a boundary of one of the six gates or time is lost by an inability to prevent an intrusion of weapons past the Wu sau or gei jong.
If a weapon is moved past the boundary of a gate a distortion of your own body structure is then created and Time needed to attack must then be used to defend.

ngoi

[Kaitain(UK)]

Buddy is correct - the understanding of those angles and lines etc to create space do not in any way affect Time.

Depending on one's agenda, you can find as much similarity or difference as you need to in order to make your point on this subject. I personally believe that how and what you train affects what you express martially. At high levels there will be similarities externally - but if you've never trained to do something internally, why would you assume that it will just appear? I wouldn't presume that after 20 years of taiji I will be able to perform something like a jumping spinning butterfly kick because it's not something I've ever trained to do.

The reason it's difficult to explain how some of these things are different is because it takes years to understand them in one's training - after 6/7 years of training I am only just understanding how my body moves within a taiji context. Can I explain that on a web forum? Not very well. I'm sure you are aware of similar things within your art/s.

Differences are how we understand the world around us - personally I take great pleasure in them.

Lastly, with regard to 'better' - it is a contextual word. In the martial and spiritual areas that matter to me, I believe taiji to be better than anything else I've seen. That's no reflection on what anyone else trains.

Paul

[canglong]

There are 2 factors to consider in design of your style or method of fighting, timing and space. --SPJ
Buddy is correct - the understanding of those angles and lines etc to create space do not in any way affect Time.--Paul Paul,
Thank you for comments. I must say though in combat as in life all any of us is ever afforded is Time, Space and Energy. If I step back and away from an opponent and create space as you suggest do I not also afford myself more Time.

[Kaitain(UK)]

no - you have exactly the same amount of time as everyone else :)

If you were to clarify down to saying "allowing more time between initial action and my response" then I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

However, I find the premise flawed in the first place - I allow my enemy to enter my space so I can lead him into emptiness. This can be through contact or through avoidance . By him entering my space, I am also entering his space - therefore I can strike at will. I certainly do not have a breakdown in my structure because my opponent has entered my space.

What I train is the idea that I'm surrounded by a field (not anything mystical - just how I visualise my range) that is bounded by the range of my head, hands, elbows, shoulders, back, hips, knees and feet. Anything that comes within that field can be connected to, and therefore used. For me to connect to it, it has to be within my space.

I think it is probably just a tactical difference due to difference in style - ballistic vs tactile (I accept there are elements of both in all styles - Im talking more about emphasis)

[canglong]

If you were to clarify down to saying "allowing more time between initial action and my response" then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. Agreed.
What I train is the idea that I'm surrounded by a field (not anything mystical - just how I visualise my range) that is bounded by the range of my head, hands, elbows, shoulders, back, hips, knees and feet. Yes we agree again in the Shaolin system this is known as the six gate theory which I spoke of earlier.
For me to connect to it, it has to be within my space. Again we agree as I stated earlier this is known as depth of battlefield extending from the center of the body to the tip of the striking point of the jong sau.

Thanks again Paul for helping clarify some of the tricky verbiage.

[Kaitain(UK)]

It would help if you could explain your terminology - I don't know what a Jong Sau is :)

What I disagree with is:


If a weapon is moved past the boundary of a gate a distortion of your own body structure is then created and Time needed to attack must then be used to defend.

There isn't necessarily a distortion of my structure just because a weapon has entered my 'sphere' - indeed, for me to be effective in offense I would quite like to have someone within my sphere so that I can limit the possibile outcomes.

I don't think that the six gate theory is the same as the field structure that I gave - they are similar, but yours is more akin to a zonal structure. Mine is just one big spherical zone. Additionally, my field is based on the limit of the range of movement for each part of my body (A collection of spheres joined together). Yours is more like a collection of cubes (as I understand it).

I do not believe that the six gate theory is the 'best' way of explaining how I move, because it is not borne of the system that I study. I could make it apply to what I do, but it wouldn't be as accurate as the one I already use.

At the end of the day they are just training tools - Im sure many people hold far more skill than I and never use any visualisation at all.

[canglong]

In the ready position one hand back in Wu sau one hand forward on center Jong sau. If a weapon is moved past the boundary of a gate a distortion of your own body structure is then created and Time needed to attack must then be used to defend. This is refering to weapons being escorted out not incoming. Just stating when escorting do not over extend the limb providing the escort.

No, six gate theory and field structure are not exactly the same but similar enough that they do help get the point across.

Six gate theory was used as an example of the workings of
Shaolin only.

[Kaitain(UK)]

gotcha - thanks for clarifying

[David Jamieson]

well, perhaps it is how i was trained and still train that makes the "differences" seem less to me.

I've always been on both tracks in my training with external and interanl being complimentary to each other to such an extent that I cannot see the difference.

perhaps some of you see them more grossly, but it is simply not my experience.

I have trained for a good deal of time. Some 20+ years in martial arts of asian origin. I simply do not see it as kungfu = hard and aggressive and internal = soft and non-aggressive. Or any number of other comparisons.

It is worthy of note that the origins are worth a look.

What where the so called internal and external martial arts born out of?

And the definitions are awry imo. Internal external. Neither can function without the other. So, having said that, can someone please indicate the meat and potato differences that are glaring?

As an example and a for instance, are you speaking of the difference between raising the support foot when kicking and not? I would deem that a stylistic difference and tend to stay flat personally.

Are you talking about how the breath is metered and used?

Are you talking about the focus of the mind? Meditation? qigong augmentation practice? Massage the organs and bowels with vibration?

I guess i don't understand because it is not being made clear what these differences are.

In a confrontational setting, you gotta move and you gotta move decisively whether you are being defensive or offensive. You must use principles that fit the human form. Words mean nothing in those salient moments and actions mean all. Wherein is the difference in the actions?

Thanks for the input and I really don't mean to grate on anyone here. This question has been the turd on the table to MAists for so long and imo, no one has properly defined the "difference" beyond the obvious methods and their reflection in beginners and intermediate practitioners.

A karate practitioner can be absorping, evasive and deflective. They can turn the energies of their opponent against them. They can pretty much fight as well as any taichi or kungfu guy.

In kungfu, I have always learned the principles to be same same in many respects except for the beginning of the path where the focus is admittedly different. (the two ended candle)

so can this be cleared up?

say an apple/orange comparison on a given method aimed at achieving a similar goal? How it is done from an internalists viewpoint and how it is done from an externalists viewpoint.

Don't get me wrong, I fully recognize the juxtaposition of smashing through (an external action) as compared to waiting for the energies to come to you, then redirecting them (an internal action) but i don't think that each cannot be applied to either.

[canglong]

Kung Lek,
As you say this has been a stumbling block for quite some time amongst martial artist this thread is not intended to change that, but I do agree with what you had to say and my teachers agree as well not sure the people that are adamant there is a discernible difference will oblige with an example but always remember as you stated earlier as well this pertains to experience and your experience and my experience is not their experience.

ngoi

[Kaitain(UK)]

as buddy said before, experience shows that whatever example is given, the response will always be "we do that too"

All I will offer is that the engine that is created through internal training is different to that created through external training - the final result may appear the same, so what does it matter?

So, an example of this in my understanding:
Peng - the spring-like energy that taiji is derived from. This energy is borne from relaxation (sung) and correct structure - pressure applied to peng is like pushing a ball under water, the harder you push, the more energy will be flung back at you. It always yields (as opposed to immediate clashing resistance), but eventually you will run out of energy and then it will spring back. Zhang zhong helps to build it, as does correct practice of the form, peng pushing and pushing hands.

So an entire system is pretty much devoted to cultivating this energy - is it so hard to accept that it is training something not found in other styles? A karateka who spends hours a day battering makiwara is going to build something that I wouldnt presume to have just because I'd been training a long time. I might have something similar, that does the same job, but it won't be the same.

Hope that helps.

[SPJ]

We bumped into some discussions of space in another thread.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33911&perpage=15&pagenumber=2