why are you here?

[EarthDragon]

need some help guys, just a question............ why is it that so many people out here that dont practice kung fu come on the kung fu board and post thier rants about how kung fu sucks?

forgive me but Im trying to understand this warped method of thinking and trying to make sense out of it. please help

[Liokault]

well I do kung fu....and I think your kung fu sucks.


More to the point, this board works on the basis that while my kung fu (or boxing,mma,thai,crapoera,karate etc) rules and is not only genuine, but street effective, yours is a worthless waste of time and has no value. Hence you should listen to what I say and one day, when your worthy, train in the same art as me.

[Meat Shake]

Thats not really the case.
Its just that all of us who fight are constantly telling those who dont fight that to be good at fighting you have to *gasp* fight.

Im not trying to get into you and lkfmdc's ****ing match.

Too many assumptions and too many blanket statements make for too many pointless ***** matches.

Saying that TCMA is useless is an unfair blanket statement. Forms training alone is fairly useles in the sense of fighting. FORMS TRAINING ALONE, AS IN BY IT SELF. that doesnt mean that it should be totally disregarded, as Im fairly certain coach ross's guys know some formwork for some of the throws they use. However... They dont just do the forms, they throw each other.

Kung fu doesnt suck, just that some of its methods need supplementing to make them more completely effective.

[SPJ]

ED;

I also post in other MA forums. Usually, they are very exclusive. I do enjoy a good term with mods and hosts.

How I do it? Be honest and sincere. (Cheng and Xing)

In northen kung fu forum, I was asked about Yi Quan. I posted that I was trained in Chen Tai Ji, Cheng's Ba Gua and Shan Xi Pai Xing Yi. I DO NOT KNOW Yi Quan and no comment.

No pretension. They are happy and not angry with me.

In mantis forum, my training is in Liu He, although I know some 7 * and Mei Hua. I DO NOT post or comment something I dunno.

I was widely respected in these forums.

Here in the KF forum, there are a lot of people just looking or starting out or wannabe's.

I post where I see fit and try to answer some general question.

In Tai Ji forum, I do post more serious stuff.

For the most part, I am here to be social.

:D

[Meat Shake]

Oh yeah... I also get paid to be here.

I could care less what style anyone does. I care about how people train, and certain groups of people have earned credibility for their training regimens.

More importantly, why must everyone who doesnt fight get butt-hurt when they are told they need to? If you are not trying to be a ring fighter, dont worry about it. Form work may save you in the street, or at least give you a better chance. Form work with lifting weights, bag work, and active fighting will give the ability to actually use what you know.

That is more or less the argument, and too many are too easily offended over blanket statements made by a thoughtless first party, but in turn the 2nd party is too lazy to think logically about the statement that is offending them.

[EarthDragon]

SPJ,
yes I have seen you in the northern forum and im sure you know where my credentials lie and that is exactly my point. you know how serious we take the board and when there is a disscussion of bashing it is moderated and only serious replies are answered.

See thats my point .............if you dont like a resurant then go somewhere else to eat, dont sit outside with signs saying this food sux, just go somewhere else........... but instead you get people out here with nothing better to do than to say my bikes better than yours............

[Water Dragon]

I'm just looking for my keys. If you can help me find them, I'll be on my way.

[EarthDragon]

oh wait water there over there

[Water Dragon]

You mean over there? (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/111.jpg)

[SPJ]

That is new to me.

People always complain about the services suks and never the food.

Hey, food (forum) is innocent.

It is always the people that suks. and Never and never the food (forum).

:D

[lkfmdc]

I come here to make people like Earth Dragon break down and post absolutlely ridiculous illogical rants, so my work is done here for today.....

[MoreMisfortune]

I am here becouse i am a fat loser with a deficient social life who never gets laid and therefore likes to play with his small ***** on his own in front of the computer.
Anything else, buddy? :)

[Brad]

need some help guys, just a question............ why is it that so many people out here that dont practice kung fu come on the kung fu board and post thier rants about how kung fu sucks?
I really don't notice that much of it :confused: One in awhile, some idiot like Ralek shows up, but otherwise the non-kungfu and mixed martial arts people are pretty cool. I think a lot of people just overreact.

[joedoe]

I agree with Brad. I think it is important to get POVs from people outside of the TCMA community. Sure it is not appreciated when people come here just to bash TCMA (like Ralek etc), but if people are willing to provide their POV in a constructive manner (like MP, Apowyn, 7*, even ST00) then I think it is useful.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I come here to make people like Earth Dragon break down and post absolutlely ridiculous illogical rants, so my work is done here for today.....
So are you off to dance in front of your mirror singing, "I am so great!" now?

[bamboo_ leaf]

(More importantly, why must everyone who doesnt fight get butt-hurt when they are told they need to?)

why do all the people who compete feel like they are fighting? Why is winning in a competition equal to fighting?

Different strokes for different folks, to mistake ring fighting for fighting is a mistake, or do you think it’s the same?

The are plenty of accounts of people who never competed and survived an encounter with a street person, there are plenty of badasses out there just waiting to make your day who don't compet, and can:cool: to think not is a mistake.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
why do all the people who compete feel like they are fighting? Why is winning in a competition equal to fighting? To answer dumb ass questions like that from people who have never competed in full contact competitions. Of course competing full contact is fighting. What do you think it is?

[bamboo_ leaf]

haha, had to laugh. i think its competition for people who like to compete.

(I have recently taken to the analogy of playing blackjack. Any serious blackjack player will hit on a 16 if the dealer has a 10 or face card- you have to assume they outgun you. If you move against someone without taking that into account, you're an idiot who could soon be parted with his life, or physical health)

from another thread, posted by someone whos views i agree with. lets see, weigh in, rankings, ect, ect. need to have a good match up for ahmm the fight?

read it and really undestand what he is saying.

oh yes i am here because i enjoy reading the post, and reading differnt veiw points, not much more then that.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Different strokes for different folks, to mistake ring fighting for fighting is a mistake, or do you think it’s the same?A single ring fight is different from all others. One street fight is different from all others. One ring fight is different from all other street fights. It's all fighting, though- two guys (or more) trying to inflict a significant amount of hurt on each other.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
... lets see, weigh in, rankings, ect, ect. need to have a good match up for ahmm the fight? ahum...not all ring fights are even match ups. Many street fights are even matchups.

[Enforcer-]

they come here to bash kung fu and make fun of various styles to make themselves feel superior.

[Royal Dragon]

I have no idea why I am here, it's been so long. According to my profile I have been here since 1969 though

[bamboo_ leaf]

But one is chosen the other happens and in some cases is chosen also.

My advice to anyone in the street is not to fight if possible.
A week or so ago here in the bay area, a guy lost a fight. The guy who lost shot the other guy after he lost, so I guess he won. :(

(If you move against someone without taking that into account, you're an idiot who could soon be parted with his life, or physical health)

[EarthDragon]

As usual I agree with what points bamboo leaf brings up.

I feel that people have something to prove to make up for other things lacking in thier life, the same way a bully, picks on other people for attention not given by his parents.

While some mma may very well be in it for the pure sport, again I say sport of fighting it is not a measure like street fighting.

I bounced for many years in some really tough NY bars and while I was confident in my abilities and usually calm during fights there was always the steroid induced hulk who was always looking to fcuk somebody up, I was looking to get them to stop fighting, throw them out and sit back down and talk to girls.

Becuse kung fu practioners can be in control of themselves people tend to think this is a sign of weakness.

When all we can do measure how much of a man someone is beacuse they can beat another in a controlled fight with a refere is a warped and shallow sense of manhod.

Competition is good for a lot of things, but to put yourself up on a pedastal becuse you entered a ring while others choose not to does not make you any better, stronger, or more of a man.

If anything it is the humble man who walks away that impresses me............

[Meat Shake]

"When all we can do measure how much of a man someone is beacuse they can beat another in a controlled fight with a refere is a warped and shallow sense of manhod."

When all we can do is measure how much of a man someone is because they can beat another man in a controlled environment with a ball, with gloves, with a ball and stick, with a ball they kick, with a ball they throw through a hole... Men measure each other by being better than one another. The entire world loves a winner. No one cares about the loser. Its mankind. Call it sad if you will, but in doing so realize your expression of lack of faith in mankind.

"While some mma may very well be in it for the pure sport, again I say sport of fighting it is not a measure like street fighting."

No one said its a measure like street fighting, everyone just says its better than NOT FIGHTING.

"but to put yourself up on a pedastal becuse you entered a ring while others choose not to does not make you any better, stronger, or more of a man."

But to be proud of your accomplishments is normal behavior. The average ring fighter trains 3x as much as your average TCMAer, and this dedication deserves attention as well. The fact that they step in the ring and put themselves and their reputation on the line needs to be recognized. Lack of personal gains tends to lead to jealousy and the attempted belittling of the accomplishments of others....

"If anything it is the humble man who walks away that impresses me.."

Big words from someone who just finished bragging about his UFC fighter.

[Water Dragon]

Look, my keys were right here the whole time. (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/021.jpg)

[EarthDragon]

water dragon, ok dude thats really getting old like as in 5 years ago give it up and find something differnt that amuses you.

Meatshake, you bring up very good points all of which hold thier valu. however not everything is a competition. And no everyone thinks the way you do. which is OK, thats why everyone is entitled to thier opionon and makes us individuals.. allow me to comment......

you said........ "Men measure each other by being better than one another. The entire world loves a winner. No one cares about the loser. Its mankind. Call it sad if you will, but in doing so realize your expression of lack of faith in mankind".

not at all actually more of a man thinks he is no better than the next man. that is being a man.

you said.......... "But to be proud of your accomplishments is normal behavior"

agreed nothing wrong with that. be proud of what you have achived. as I do agree with the rest of that paragraph.

you said...........Big words from someone who just finished bragging about his UFC fighter.

again I am proud of my acomplishments, you told me to be proud! you jus said it was OK right? I can brag about someone else cant I?
I think its arrogant to brag about oneself. I would rather let other people toot my horn it can be heard much louder.
again people are different other wise we would all say vanilla ice cream is our favorite..............

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
You mean over there? (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/111.jpg)

That was funny.

I was totally unprepared for that pic which shouldn't have had anything funny about it. How the hell did you think of that in context?

Who cares. This time I really did lol.

[Meat Shake]

Being proud is one thing, but repeatedly stating your accomplishments in a dick contest hardly sounds like simply being proud.

I agree that coach ross can be cross at times, but he has the track record to back up what he says.
I think the problem is that coach ross is making broad statements while the TCMA crowd is taking a narrow view at them. Not a good combination for communication.
This means that both parties are at fault.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
water dragon, ok dude thats really getting old like as in 5 years ago give it up and find something differnt that amuses you.

Oh ****....I never saw it before. I didn't realize he had a follow up. It brightened my evening and is VERY relevent to why I am here.

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Oh ****....I never saw it before. I didn't realize he had a follow up. It brightened my evening and is VERY relevent to why I am here.

What time is it over there?
9am texas style.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
water dragon, ok dude thats really getting old like as in 5 years ago give it up and find something differnt that amuses you.



Whoah, calm down man. I was just playing. (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/025.jpg)

[Mr Punch]

[spits green tea at the screen]

WD, that's just cheered me the hell up! :D

[Water Dragon]

Smell my finger. (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/037.jpg)

[EarthDragon]

well at least my website is getting publicity, bad or good its still publicity.

meatshake, you cannot match my stint with IKFMDC a measure of my demeanor or who I am. Part of me was sick of his crap and wanted to knock him out.

The other part was to get and rise out of him to see how defensive he would get.whiched worked rather well....

I challenged him and knew he would make an excuse thats just the kind of person he is, he lives through his students becuse he was never good enough himself. Which is fine he should be happy he is truning out ring fighters if thats what makes him feel better.

However he has just said way to much BS and trying way to hard to sell this BS.

If he likes it then great for him, but dont push his ideas on me.

Im not that kind of person. and don't take to kindly to someone teeling me what I should do..........

[lkfmdc]

Earth Dragon, you are so full of yourself, and what a ****

- "I hear he has no formal training" -

Just shows what sort of self dellusion you live in....

You thought you were acting tough? Oh please

"I challenge you!"

of course, you live 397 miles away, a 7 hour drive, and it isn't like anyone with a real life has a reason to go to Buffalo....

If you were real in any way, show up at a major San Da competition like the ABOC, Cung Le's BTF, the world championships, the USWU nationals, etc....

Otherwise, your lips are just flapping in the breeze

[EarthDragon]

funny but I used to spar with Chun Le while I was living in chinatown San Francisco as his teacher and my shrfu are good friends. He lived 2 and a half miles from the kwoon.

Secondly you challenge me???? when you declined my challenge becuse you said I live to far away............ IM IN THE SAME STATE

your full of excuses.......................

[Water Dragon]

Oh boy, here we go.

*sits back, rolls blunt*

[Meat Shake]

ED = sifu able?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
ED = sifu able?

No. But it's gonna be the same story.

*passes Blizay to MeatShake*

[Meat Shake]

Mmm...
What a tease. I could go for a blunt right about now.
Bah. Stupid work not allowing the smoking of blunts in the offices...
:mad:

Edit: Now i know many of you are thinking "What kind of stupid ass job would let you?"
... That my friends, is why Im a musician. ;)


Oh well... after the gym after work...
Meh.

[red5angel]

I feel that people have something to prove to make up for other things lacking in thier life, the same way a bully, picks on other people for attention not given by his parents.


I like the the guys the get on and start talking about how much they know this and that and how eveyrone else knows crap and everyone on here sucks cause they don't understand CMA, TMA or qi.
At some point we then end up with some crappy thread about how they don't understand why their art is getting knocked on, or the knowledge they claim to have is getting trashed by people who "don't know any better".

besides, shouldn't you be shooting chi blasts or something right now?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
...again I say sport of fighting it is not a measure like street fighting... And neither is bouncing at a bar.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
I like the the guys the get on and start talking about how much they know this and that and how eveyrone else knows crap and everyone on here sucks cause they don't understand CMA, TMA or qi.
At some point we then end up with some crappy thread about how they don't understand why their art is getting knocked on, or the knowledge they claim to have is getting trashed by people who "don't know any better".


... and then there are some of us that are hoping all the p!ss!ng matches result in vid clips of actual challenge matches!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
well at least my website is getting publicity, bad or good its still publicity.

"Tang drove off 50 men, injuring most and killing 4.’


"Astonished by the skills of the insect, Wang Lang captured the praying mantis and carried it with him on his return
home. Having built a cage for his new friend, Wang Lang had decided to keep the mantis and study it’s movements.
Using chop sticks, Wang Lang spent much of his time battling with his tiny opponent, and very carefully watched to
see which actions the mantis would take in order to defend itself. Wang Lang took these techniques and incorporated
them into his training. Having learned the techniques of the Praying Mantis and having trained much harder, Wang
Lang felt the time had come to test himself once again."


Here are a couple of the reasons people bash kung fu...
Thinking that humans should be fighting like bugs.
Believing that a kung fu "grandmaster' injured/killed a mob of 50 people.

[lkfmdc]

1. the name isn't "chun le" :rolleyes:

2. learn to READ, I was making fun of your challenge

3. you are still a geek

[EarthDragon]

knifefighter,
so now you questioning the very history of praying mantis?

And the facts are somehow not real just becuse you dont believe them?

And I suppose you think that planes actually flew into the world trade centers...................see what statements sound ludicrous when you dont belive them.................

[red5angel]

Thinking that humans should be fighting like bugs.

Believing that a kung fu "grandmaster' injured/killed a mob of 50 people.

you completely missed it knifefighter. You didn't realize that fighting like bugs canhelp you drive or or maim 50 fighters! :p

[EarthDragon]

then how about fighting like monkies, snakes, fictional dragons, birds and the various other animals that exsisted from which every art you guys all study comes from.

redangel dont you study dancing??????????
now if I was ignorant i would laugh at that and compare your caperioa to my little sister who studies tap and jazz.

Do you not understand ?

[MoreMisfortune]

lol a dude just got called CHUN LI in here, lol

[SevenStar]

LOL @ a kung fu guy calling a capoeira guy a dancer...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
LOL @ a kung fu guy calling a capoeira guy a dancer... :rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

anyways before you guys make assumptions and sound more immature than you do here is the story. deplicted by the national praying mantis associtation in P.R.C which is all factual and recorded history.This is my shrfu shrfu matybe youve heard of him master Wei check http://www.babutanglang.com/main.html

unless of course the story was made up to impress teenagers on the internet.....

The situation was out of hand and Wei Hsiao Tang immediately intervened and asked for everyone to stop. Attacking with sticks and different manner of weapons, the mob would not quiet down. They soon turned on Wei Hsiao Tang, angered by his interference. The next day all of the of the papers told of the mob scene in which Wei Hsiao Tang drove off 50 men, injuring most and killing 4. The Korean government immediately set out to capture Wei Hsiao Tang. If it were not for friends in the Chinese underground, he might not of been able to escape.

Back in China, hiding under an assumed name, Wei Hsiao Tang eventually made his way to Shanghai. Here in 1930, he met and became friends with Grandmaster Wu Ching To, master of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan. They were both the highest of masters who had come from an incredible lineage. Their respective styles were complete, with little else that could be added and nothing to change. The only thing they could do was to exchange their systems, so that is what they decided. They taught their respective systems in their entirety, holding back no secrets. Soon after, Master Wu died, taking with him what he had learned. Fortunately he had left Wei Hsiao Tang with his knowledge.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
LOL @ a kung fu guy calling a capoeira guy a dancer...

I dare you to come over here and say that, tough guy. (http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/055.jpg)

[unixfudotnet]

In reply to the original subject line, I am here because I was searching for a community of chinese martial artists online (I am a programmer by day, so I spend 9-10 hours a day in front of computers).

Some things disappoint me about the drama that goes on here, but it is what is it. Just like USENET, a struggle to filter the signal from the noise :)

For the most part, it is nice to see and hear from others that are students and going thru the same thing as me, and willing to offer help if I ask, and to help others if able :)

A community and general feeling of belonging and that we are not alone is a nice thing, especially when struggling sometimes :) Like there are some days when I just do not want to do anything, yet I must and stay strong and just do it :)

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
anyways before you guys make assumptions and sound more immature than you do here is the story. deplicted by the national praying mantis associtation in P.R.C which is all factual and recorded history.



Well, as long as it is "deplicted" then who are we to argue :rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

unixfudotnet,
thank you for answering my original question. It seems as though you cant pose a question or respond to a comment or give your opionon on this board without beeing bombarded by childish trollers and immature preschool behavior.

Its entertaining sometimes but other wise its really fcuking ridiculous.
If you are sincere in your intention and like to disscuss marital arts and kung fu specifically then join us in the northern room. everything gets monitored and subjects OT gets the axe and trolls are banned and thown into this room.

[red5angel]

redangel dont you study dancing??????????

did I say something about the way you fight earth dragon? did I say anything about the style you use?



That's what is really ironic about a few of you on this forum and your argumentive ways. EVERYTHING is personal to you. One person makes one comment taht might seem like a slight and suddenly it becomes a personal issue.

Didn't your sifu ever teach you to leave the emotion at home?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
meatshake, you cannot match my stint with IKFMDC a measure of my demeanor or who I am. Part of me was sick of his crap and wanted to knock him out.

I challenged him and knew he would make an excuse thats just the kind of person he is, he lives through his students becuse he was never good enough himself. Which is fine he should be happy he is truning out ring fighters if thats what makes him feel better.


put your money where your mouth is. Since you say it's not that far to travel, why don't you go see him?

[red5angel]

put your money where your mouth is. Since you say it's not that far to travel, why don't you go see him?


fukkin a' right!!!!! Stop being an internet tough guy. Here's your chance to man-up and prove what you got ED. Take a flight, or drive out, do what you say you can and want to do to Ross. What do you have to lose? A little money on gas or tickets? Big deal, imagine the cash you could pull in with new students if you could just man up and fight instead of throwing internet challenges like a sissy girl.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
:rolleyes:

shuddup, dancer...:p

[red5angel]

I'm the dancer...MK is the 5 minute arm breaker, you kow the chubby guy ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
anyways before you guys make assumptions and sound more immature than you do here is the story. deplicted by the national praying mantis associtation in P.R.C which is all factual and recorded history.This is my shrfu shrfu matybe youve heard of him master Wei check http://www.babutanglang.com/main.html

unless of course the story was made up to impress teenagers on the internet.....

The situation was out of hand and Wei Hsiao Tang immediately intervened and asked for everyone to stop. Attacking with sticks and different manner of weapons, the mob would not quiet down. They soon turned on Wei Hsiao Tang, angered by his interference. The next day all of the of the papers told of the mob scene in which Wei Hsiao Tang drove off 50 men, injuring most and killing 4. The Korean government immediately set out to capture Wei Hsiao Tang. If it were not for friends in the Chinese underground, he might not of been able to escape.

Back in China, hiding under an assumed name, Wei Hsiao Tang eventually made his way to Shanghai. Here in 1930, he met and became friends with Grandmaster Wu Ching To, master of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan. They were both the highest of masters who had come from an incredible lineage. Their respective styles were complete, with little else that could be added and nothing to change. The only thing they could do was to exchange their systems, so that is what they decided. They taught their respective systems in their entirety, holding back no secrets. Soon after, Master Wu died, taking with him what he had learned. Fortunately he had left Wei Hsiao Tang with his knowledge.

regardgless of what that site says, the notion of one man driving off 50 is ridiculous. the only way that could even be seen as almost feasible would be if he fought them one at a time, and in that case, it wasn't a multiple attacker situation...

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
then how about fighting like monkies, snakes, fictional dragons, birds and the various other animals that exsisted from which every art you guys all study comes from.

No art that I study descends from anything involving mimicking animals.

[red5angel]

I study capoeira, an art that from what I understand has no animal descendants.


I did study southern preying mantis though, they had some good concepts.

[EarthDragon]

actually he weilded a sun and moon ring in his palm.
And if your a fisherman and see a master hittiing and killing or even just injuring and stabbing the fisherman peasant next to you would you jump in?

I was in a barfight and a whole crowd of people were going to jump this guy ...then he broke a long neck beer bottle over the bar and no one I mean no one was the first to jump in .
Same situation......................................... ............................... would you risk being stabbed in the face for no reason?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I did study southern preying mantis though, they had some good concepts. I bet that was a cool 2 weeks.

[EarthDragon]

redangel, my point is that if I were ignorant of capoeria i would say tha you are studing dancing, and mix that with what my sister takes on wednesday's see my point?

father dog, what type of fighting do you study? it doesnt come from or have roots in china?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
father dog, what type of fighting do you study? it doesnt come from or have roots in china?

Muay Thai, boxing, and submission grappling.

[Meat Shake]

Shuai chiao, BJJ (Informally).
Work my kick/punch game at home on the bag most of the time. Spend most of our time free wrestling or fighting or rolling.

We dont really talk about the history, unless its stories of someone getting beat up by one of the masters.
(Nothing about killing a large group, just stories of people getting fingers bitten off and the like)

"redangel, my point is that if I were ignorant of capoeria i would say tha you are studing dancing, and mix that with what my sister takes on wednesday's see my point?"

Capoeria is basically breakdancing. Im sure it has some useful concepts, and I may very well enroll when I get up there for the aspect of learning acrobatics and to breakdance. Ill teach shuai chiao and continue training real fighting, but nothing wrong with learning how to dance. Id like to take salsa lessons before I leave san antonio to be completely honest. Makes uncoordinated northen women get all hot and messy.

[EarthDragon]

thailand kickboxing stemed from china.

Boxing as in american boxing? enough said

and grappling? came from judo which came from jujitsu which came from shuai chiao.
So as with most branches of martial art they have their roots in china.
But as you said they are not always animal in orign. but even something like Taiji gets it birth from observing turtles and birds.

[red5angel]

Capoeria is basically breakdancing.

meatshake, I think you might be pleasantly surprised. It's certainly not the most efficient way of fighting and some of the stuff is just too dangerous to try to pull of in a real fight but I think atleast in a sparring or sport type situation, you'd be surprised how much of it you might get to work. I attribute that mostly to how well put together the art is. By that I mean that there's not alot slapped into capoeira just because, if they can't make it work in capoeira, then it isn't in there.

Of course, like any art, capoeira in the roda is much different from capoeira for fighting.

[Meat Shake]

Eh, I like infighting. Capoeria has nothing or little to do with the way I like to fight, I just want to learn how to do flips and breakdance. It may work for fighting, but not for how I like to fight. Too far away.

[red5angel]

gotcha, however, too far might be an mis statement too, it just depends on what you mean by infighting. Capoeira doesn't doa whole lot of grappling, but you learn to stay surprisingly close to your opponent. That's part of the game actually.

see, the roda is different from just a sparring match, its more like counting coupe on your opponent. Instead of hitting him or kicking him, you just show him you coudl kick or hit him. On top of that, the fancier hit or kick you can get in, the better you do. Part of capoeira is staying in close for a couple of reasons. a- it's harder and so shows more skill in the roda. b- it throws your opponent off and makes him uncomfortable.
I don't stick to my opponent like I did in wingchun, but I still have to try to stay pretty close. I'm on average, much closer then when I was sparring in that longfist class.

[Meat Shake]

Think about sprinting.
Now think someone is in your way.
Think now that you want to punch them in the face or drop a shoulder into their chest while you are sprinting, then thrown them down as hard as you can.
This is my preffered method of fighting.
I have long legs, but I dont particularly like to kick above the thigh. Occasionally Ill use a MT style teep, or a roundhouse with my shins to the ribs though...

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
thailand kickboxing stemed from china.

Prove it.



Boxing as in american boxing? enough said

"Enough said" about what? It has no origin in imitation of any animal, and no roots in china - it was developed as a bare-handed form of fencing.



and grappling? came from judo which came from jujitsu which came from shuai chiao.

Prove it. And even if this were true, it's irrelevant, since Shuai chiao doesn't have animal forms.

[Meat Shake]

"Prove it. And even if this were true, it's irrelevant, since Shuai chiao doesn't have animal forms."

More importantly...
Old school shuai chiao says its disgraceful to fight on the ground "like dogs". "Mans dignity is on his two feet, as that is where he should remain even while fighting."

I believe in ground fighting, but Im not a shuai chiao master.
:)

[EarthDragon]

what is there to prove?
that thailand immigrants came from china? before kickboxing was even invented.

Boxing as in american boxing is less than 100 years old, but it came from england who borrowed it from the french who borrowed it from china.

Shuai Chiao is in our system or praying mantis, the entire shuai chiao (chinese fast wrestling) in fact. we have the basic 40 throws which if you like I can post them for you. But all in all it was still the oldest form of throwing, to which akijutsu and jujitsu were born.

I had this same conversation with a guy about western medicine. He said that it was discovered here. I explained that medicine in india and china is over 4,000 years old western medicne is only 260. who borrowed what from what? evertyhing has roots and orgin.
do you think our very languge isnt rooted in latin? its the same thing.
again while not always based on animals I never said that.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EarthDragon

Boxing as in american boxing is less than 100 years old, but it came from england who borrowed it from the french who borrowed it from china.



Yet more evidence that Earth Dragon lives in a world of his own imagination :rolleyes:

Oh

Dude, try telling a Thai he is really just a Chinese immigrant. I guess you don't realize that Thai as a language isn't even in the same linguistic family as Chinese......

[Meat Shake]

"Boxing as in american boxing is less than 100 years old, but it came from england who borrowed it from the french who borrowed it from china."

Hmm.. Id check your sources on that one. Fighting has been going on in europe just as long as in china. Just differently. Romans pancration fights had nothing to do with china, and happened 2000 years ago. Many techniques in grappling were seen there.

"But all in all it was still the oldest form of throwing, to which akijutsu and jujitsu were born."

I agree that shuai chiao is the oldest documented form of throwing.

"I had this same conversation with a guy about western medicine. He said that it was discovered here. "
So western medicine is from the east? :confused:

"I explained that medicine in india and china is over 4,000 years old western medicne is only 260. "
Thats probably because america is only 260.

Chinese medicine and western medicine have very little to do with one another.

Im not picking sides, just dropping facts.

[red5angel]

you are a chino-phil earen't you ED? keerist, next thing you know latin, will have come from the chinese as well.

of course everything has to have an origin but that origin doesn't always have to lead back to china......

[red5angel]

I agree that shuai chiao is the oldest documented form of throwing.


someone posted a link a while back about the scot's playing a throwing game a long time ago. supposedly they got it from the romans.

[MasterKiller]

The 'Book of Leinster' is the basis for the claim that the heavy events are the oldest continuing athletic tradition in the world, and indeed it seems that the Celtic sports are rivaled in this respect only by Japanese sumo wrestling, which is descended from Chinese wrestling traditions dating to at least 1000 B.C., though the first accurate reference to a Japanese sumo bout is dated to 52 B.C.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001007031706/www.saaa-net.org/free/hist1.html

[lkfmdc]

It is really a shame that Western people fall for the lie that all martial arts come from Asia.....

There is fortunately a wide range of literature on Western martial arts, and it is growing daily... a good place to start is Sydney Anglo's "Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe", a fun book is alos Pliakoff's "Combat Sports in the Ancient World"

The Asia brain washed have often tried to present the idea that Savate came from Asia. Records however indicate clearly its origins in Europe prior to trade with China.

The development of the foot was a logical extension of fencing, when tied up in close, with hands holding weapons and defending against weapons, the foot and knee were ideal weapons. There is also a good video on this done by the London Society for Historical Combat...

Foot fighting of fencing mixed with general rough house tactics of common street hoodlums in Southern France until organized into Savate by an enterprisig young man who realized he could organize an "academy of personal defense" and make money of the emerging middle class

The lack of hand techniques led him to study English boxing, and when fuzed with ENGLISH technique, it became the "Boxe Francaise" or "French Boxing"

Thus, France got boxing from England, NOT the other way around.....

[red5angel]

I agree that shuai chiao is the oldest documented form of throwing.

[MasterKiller]

Also around 2600 BC, were the wrestlers of the Go Ti (horn gore) matches, who fought to the death while wearing horns as entertainment for the warlords. The Yellow Emperor was also instrumental in bringing warfare beyond the Stone Age, utilizing weapons made of polished jade. Then with the invention of bronze (around 1700 BC), many were enticed by its strength and became devotees. One such person was King Wan who invited 3000 sword fighters to fight him. It would be around this era that Wuyi (Wushu) was included in the context of education. The art known as Shuai Chiao (Throwing Tumbling Art) or Chinese wrestling evolved (around 700 BC) is considered the oldest organized Chinese martial art. It grew after the barbaric Go Ti matches were banned. The philosophy of Shuai Chiao is best described by the Book of Rites. "In order to prohibit evils and crimes...there must be Bo Zhi." Drilling patterns for Bo (striking) & Zhi (grabbing) were produced during this period.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
what is there to prove?
that thailand immigrants came from china? before kickboxing was even invented.

which would mean what? thai boxing evovled along entirely different lines...you can't accurately say it was influenced by kung fu.


Shuai Chiao is in our system or praying mantis, the entire shuai chiao (chinese fast wrestling) in fact. we have the basic 40 throws which if you like I can post them for you. But all in all it was still the oldest form of throwing, to which akijutsu and jujitsu were born.

there are alot of stories of the origin of jujutsu. some say it came froma chinese boxer who knew three chin na techniques. the japanese expanded on those three.

some say it was entirely japanese.

neither can be historically verified. It remains a mystery.

there are, however, people that will tell you shuai chiao has more in common with sumo than judo or jujutsu...

[Meat Shake]

"there are, however, people that will tell you shuai chiao has more in common with sumo than "

Erm... Shuai Chiao is grossly similar to judo.

[SevenStar]

somewhat... different in principle though.

give MSToo a call and ask him about SC and sumo.

[SevenStar]

Actually, here's a quote:


"Hey MP - Somewhere, years ago, I think I went through this on KFO. I apologize for being brief - but it's Saturday night and I'm stuck writing ad copy - F@CK!

Judo has only the 'safe' (HAH!) throws in it's curriculum. This made sense for it's propogation, but in my opinion leaves some 'gaps' in the body knowledge of Judo -only guys.

Shuaio Chiao has no ne-waza or matwork. There are ground controls, and seizing breaks after a throw, but nothing you'd recognize as 'rolling.'

Judo bases it's training on the ai priori assumptions of Kuzushi and 'minimum effort, maximum result.' From these two ideas the entire 'flavor' of Judo is created.

Shuai Chiao is more similar to Sumo (minus the chub) throwing techniques. Shuai Chiao will tie you up into positions that are not safe to fall from, then blast you. They'll collide or tear you off your base in addition to 'leading' or Kuzushi concepted throws. There is a much greater emphasis on the control that allows a throw to happen. In this sense, we share some kinship with Greco-Roman.

Shuai Chiao players don't like sacrifice throws - Judo is chok full of them."

[Meat Shake]

True, Im simply talking about the throwing techniques themselves.
Many throws are pretty much the exact same.

[SevenStar]

yeah, that's true. I think there are still some small differences in there though, for example, with your shoulder throw, you don't load them on your hip like a judoka does.

[Mr Punch]

Here I am, happily minding my own business and along comes some dumb **** posting dumb ****.

Thai culture, language and boxing developed indepently from China. Thai boxing is not connected to kungfu, and nor to animal styles. Thai people were not 'Chinese immigrants'.

Western boxing and its forerunners have been around for many many centuries and there is no evidence to suppose it has any influences from any Chinese fighting style. In fact anyone who studies either the arts or the history will realise that they are pretty much as far apart as two punchy arts can be.

There is precious little evidence to connect shuaio chiao to jujutsu in dynamics or history, plus the oldest forms of jujutsu are said to have been inherently Japanese, and though there is no hard evidence for that either there are records of sorts dating back to jujutsu's creation in the 11th century.

To say that grappling is from China is laughable.
It ignores Graeco-Roman (which I suppose is a place somewhere near Beijing), and Cumberland, Lancashire and Cornish wrestling which arguably come from the wrestling practised and passed down by the Norse and mentioned in several sagas, and which then gave rise to catch wrestling in the US.

To say that western medicine based on the humours and ancient western herbal medicine (which by the very nature of the plants must be completely different to Chinese herbal medicine apart from the philosophical theories) comes from either Indian or Chinese medicine is also woefully ignorant.

Apart from which there are many kinds of Indian medicine and they are very different from Chinese medicine.

Earth Dragon, you are very very silly.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Dude....and you were trying to get at me for a non existent comment i made?

Your kinda being....whats the word?

A hyprocrite.

I think flying ninjas are more believable than some of the things u say....

[EarthDragon]

My God dont be so literal!

All I was dont was poking fun at ikfmdc posts and saying everything he does comes from a chinese influnce.
I didnt mean to upset the rest of you.
Its my fault I didnt address him personally. And for that I am sorry but as everyone has told me dont take what people say on this board to seriously all the time, but then when I say it everyone reads into it way too much.

you have to admitt most things have asian influence though. even pizza and spaggetti which most people think is italian.

But as far as western medicine to elaborate on someones comment, is most certianly from chinese origin. The very use of drugs while most in this country is synthetic and pharmacudically made they are originally from herbs used mostly by china, and other aboriginal asia.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
The very use of drugs while most in this country is synthetic and pharmacudically made they are originally from herbs used mostly by china, and other aboriginal asia. There is significant evidence that European Neanderthals used herbs for medicinal purposes. Does that mean Chinese medicine is really European?

[Meat Shake]

The notion of using drugs may have come from one place or another, but the theories and principals that make it what it is differ greatly from TCM.
Western medicine - Numb the problem, immobilize it, drug it.
TCMA - Tighten up the area, active rest, herb rubs, internal herbs.

Not quite similar.

[red5angel]

All I was dont was poking fun at ikfmdc posts and saying everything he does comes from a chinese influnce.

nice backpedal......


I especially like how all other indigenous populations didn't bother with medicine, fighting and now, apparently eating until the chinese came along and introduced all those things.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
The notion of using drugs may have come from one place or another, but the theories and principals that make it what it is differ greatly from TCM.
Western medicine - Numb the problem, immobilize it, drug it.
TCMA - Tighten up the area, active rest, herb rubs, internal herbs.

Not quite similar. Actually, if you read Culpeper and Gerard, the two most famous European herbalists, they include a lot of pseudo-psychological stuff about the humours, which were not just based on treating the symptom and 'drugging it' and that they based their notions on centuries of European herblore, European star-lore and European alchemical philosophy.

To suggest this is linked to China in any way is extremely ignorant.

The holistic aspect is linked to China, in that it is holistic. Therein the similarity ends! The herblore aspects are linked to China, in that it is herblore...! etc!

The herbs were completely different. Earth Dragon, look in your garden, and look in the Chinese health clinic, and tell me the same **** is growing in your garden! You're talking out of your arse.

Apart from what you said about grappling, although that was also talking out of your arse.

[lkfmdc]

yeah, sure, you meant to say something else..... :rolleyes:

I love how Earth Dragon dug himself a nice big hole and promptly jumped into it head first....

what a maroon

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
knifefighter,
so now you questioning the very history of praying mantis? Not at all... and that's why I think it is an inefficient way to develop a figthing method. Humans are not bugs (nor are they snakes, gorillas, or sharks). There are efficient ways for humans to fight, just as there are for different animals and bugs. You won't see a shark trying to kill its prey like a bug.

[EarthDragon]

Master Killer, you said European Neanderthals used herbs? Never knew neaderthals were that evolved.

Mat, if you are suggesting that the europeans were the first to use herbs you are mistaken.
The europeans sailed to china and that is where they got thier knowledge, then returned and used herbs indigent to thier country.
The same as I said with food like pizza and pasta.

ikfmdc and redangel, I wont bother to waste my time reponding to anything you two trolls have to say. IKFMDC If you wish to speak like a grownup then I will respond in a professional and mature manor.

REDANGEL?little magical trevor theres no hope for you, as you are always trolling, or making up some ridiculous thread about nothing. If I can quote people on this board, you are a midget with 9 months of training.

Knifeighter, you said............. that's why I think it is an inefficient way to develop a figthing method.

On the contrary this is the very reason humans looked to nature and mimicked animal movements.
Dont you realize the potential of fighting like a tiger? or locking and trapping like a mantis?
There's a lot of masters over the last several centuries that spent thier lives learning these methods and obviously they work or they wouldnt have been around for hundreds of years..............

you cant possible argue that

[MasterKiller]

Physical evidence of use of herbal remedies goes back some 60,000 years to a burial site of a Neanderthal man uncovered in 1960. He had been buried with eight species of plants, seven of which are still used for medicinal purposes today. Many contemporary medical drugs are derived from herbs like strychnine, aspirin, vincristine, taxol, curare, and ergot.

The first written records detailing the use of herbs in the treatment of illness are from about 2000 B.C. King Assurbanipal of Sumeria ordered the compilation of the first known materia medica - containing 250 herbal drugs.

[EarthDragon]

IFMDC.............
dude in your last post did you call me the color maroon?

ROTFLMAO LOLOLOLOLOLOL

and if I can quote you............ "what a maroon"

now thats fcucking funny

Your too much even for yourself

[Meat Shake]

"There's a lot of masters over the last several centuries that spent thier lives learning these methods and obviously they work or they wouldnt have been around for hundreds of years.............."

Communism has failed countless times yet it still exists.

"Many contemporary medical drugs are derived from herbs like strychnine, aspirin, vincristine, taxol, curare, and ergot."

LSD came from ergot.
:eek:
:D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
IFMDC.............
dude in your last post did you call me the color maroon?

ROTFLMAO LOLOLOLOLOLOL

and if I can quote you............ "what a maroon"

now thats fcucking funny

Your too much even for yourself

I take it you're not a Bugs Bunny fan. Once again, you're probably the only guy on the forum that doesn't get it.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
IFMDC.............
dude in your last post did you call me the color maroon?

ROTFLMAO LOLOLOLOLOLOL

and if I can quote you............ "what a maroon"

now thats fcucking funny

Your too much even for yourself

Main Entry: 1ma·roon
Pronunciation: m&-'rün
Function: noun
Etymology: French maron, marron, modification of American Spanish cimarrón, from cimarrón wild, savage
1 capitalized : a fugitive black slave of the West Indies and Guiana in the 17th and 18th centuries; also : a descendant of such a slave
2 : a person who is marooned

[Meat Shake]

Maroon = idiot.
Ever watched an old bugs bunny cartoon?
"What a maroon."

Earth Dragon - Im sure you have valuable input for martial arts discussion, but the current few pages... just.... no.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
On the contrary this is the very reason humans looked to nature and mimicked animal movements.
Dont you realize the potential of fighting like a tiger? or locking and trapping like a mantis?
There's a lot of masters over the last several centuries that spent thier lives learning these methods and obviously they work or they wouldnt have been around for hundreds of years............. They have been around for hundreds of years because they don't regularly test their techniques against skilled fighters, and, because of this a whole magical belief system has developed around them. The systems that regularly test themselves against others have no use for trying to make themselves fight like bugs. They have learned over the centuries that there are more efficient ways to fight.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Maroon = idiot.
Ever watched an old bugs bunny cartoon?
"What a maroon.". It means someone who is out of touch..isolated. I.E. being marooned.

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It means someone who is out of touch..isolated. I.E. being marooned.

Post blunted. :D

[red5angel]

holy sh!t, in all my years on this forum I don't think I've ever seen anyone dig so deep a hole as you are ED!

Do you really believe that herbalism comes straight from china and no where else?! I think my fathers people, the cherokee, would have a hard time with that
I bet my wife's aboriginal freind would have a serious issue with thta too....



I wont bother to waste my time reponding to anything you two trolls have to say. IKFMDC If you wish to speak like a grownup then I will respond in a professional and mature manor.

bwahahahahahah! First of all, you have to be trolling now, no way your that fukking stupid....ok, maybe, you do believe in chi. As for speaking maturely, do I need to post some of your less then mature posts? Ok, here's one:


REDANGEL?little magical trevor theres no hope for you, as you are always trolling, or making up some ridiculous thread about nothing. If I can quote people on this board, you are a midget with 9 months of training.

Ironically, those last two quotes were both on the same post! Oh yeah, and if you're going to try slamming me, come up with your own material you tard. Shouldn't you be out chi blasting some chinese herbs for the western world or something?



BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA I Can't believe this, so much material, so little time!

[Shaolinlueb]

im here cause my mom and dad had sex 24 years ago.
if i had a pic of me with my mom and dad i would post it :D :p

[MasterKiller]

More about Red5's ancestors... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=624&e=3&u=/ap/20041027/ap_on_sc/dwarf_cavewoman)

[EarthDragon]

I guess I am not a cartoon fan like the rest of you, no wonder you guys have so much fun on here. And all this time I thought it was a kung fu forum but instead we quote comic strips?
No wonder all the serious posts or on the other boards.


So how many of you ride this dudes nuts anyway? I know trevor does.

[Water Dragon]

Oh c'mon man. We may sit around watching cartoons, but at least we're not trying to tell everyone that the Chinese created everything from the internet to Helio Gracie.

[Meat Shake]

I created plastic and air.

[EarthDragon]

kniffighter, you said
They have been around for hundreds of years because they don't regularly test their techniques against skilled fighters

WHAT?
Where in history havent they? why are so many systems so feared and highly respected in the world. Becuse they fought to see what styles are superior and those survived others where discarded.
praying mantis is still highly repected as a complete fighting art and many famous masters have saught out to find why its figthing style is so effective.its becuse of mimicking the trapping and footwork of the insect. which is hard to read becuase its NOT like man's.

It has been tested and tried true against many many skilled fighters for centuries. and thats just one art.

to the restI never said they created everything, just that kung fu is the mother of asian fighting styles,and others have borrowed off it, as well as herbology and a lot of food have origins in china

[lkfmdc]

it figures that ED can't even recognize the term, the whole rest of the forum got it....

blah blah, if anyone is a troll, it's ED, with his "everything came from China" routine.....

Oh, wait, the very best of course was how the English got boxing from France and France got boxing from China bit.....

If he's faking being this stupid, the man is Robin Williams

[Reggie1]

I created the internet.

Completely off topic, but I was a little dissapointed the other day. One of my buddies caught this cool-looking beetle and kept it in a jar to mess around with. Then we caught a praying mantis and put it in with the beetle to watch the great beetle vs. mantis fight. The mantis lasted about 5 seconds and then was cut oin half by the beetle's jaws. Being a mantis guy, I was really let down.

The moral of the story: If you are a mantis practicioner, don't fight a guy wearing armor who also has really strong jaws. He will F you up.

[red5angel]

I created plastic and air.

sorry bud, the chinese beat you to it.

I figured it out MK! the "everyone else" that hates me is EarthDragon!!!! And since he's just one of your internet alter egos - you two have to be atleast related, twice over, to be that stupid.


Hey ED - we're not riding his nutz, we're busting yours for being a tard.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I figured it out MK! the "everyone else" that hates me is EarthDragon!!!! And since he's just one of your internet alter egos - you two have to be atleast related, twice over, to be that stupid. You remind me of a chihuaua. A lot of yap...not much bite.

[red5angel]

well how's this:

*cough*clears throat - [in deep voice] "Well if you come on up to mineapolis, say Diamond Nationals coming up here in a few months, I'll kick your ass for you. It wil only take 10 minutes. No wait! 7 minutes...Now Wait! 3 minutes. I'll break your arms, how about that?"

how's that for bite?

[MasterKiller]

Yap Yap Yap (http://www.everwonder.com/david/tacobell/yoyo.gif)

[red5angel]

yaaaaaaawwwwnnnnn......

speaking of riding someones nutz....you and ED related?

[MasterKiller]

Grow a couple of more inches and then I'll tell you.

[red5angel]

bwahahahahahhaaa....oh wait, that's the joke you use EVERYTIME.......

[MasterKiller]

It's funny cuz it's true, Pee-Wee.

[red5angel]

oooooooh yet another creative one from the mastermind of funny, MASTERKILLER!!!!!!

I'd reply with I'm rubber your glue...but I expect that would take some explanation so I won't bother.

[MasterKiller]

I'm just being careful not to overload your midget brain. I get the impression that you're slightly retarded and I'm just being sensitive to your plight.

[red5angel]

that one showed some slight creativity, still low brow and well weak, but good try. I give you a 2.8

you should read the title fo this thread.....

[EarthDragon]

knifefighter, just got this from a simliar thread with similar disscussion we are having on the northern board. tell me what you think?

Humans are unique in that they can extend and enhance their abilities through technology after studying other life forms (including bugs) that have adapted for certain conditions. Just about everything you see around you is an extension of our bodies, ie cars, bikes, TV, computers, telescopes, planes, boats. Copying the abilities of animals and such is a perfectly natural thing for us to do and seems to work fine. Failure to use this gift is your loss.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
why are so many systems so feared and highly respected in the world. Becuse they fought to see what styles are superior and those survived others where discarded.

feared by whom?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
you should read the title fo this thread..... I'm here because I practice a Chinese Martial Art. Why are you here?

[red5angel]

Hi, my name is Jason and I'm a recovering kungfuaholic......

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Humans are unique in that they can extend and enhance their abilities through technology after studying other life forms (including bugs) that have adapted for certain conditions. Just about everything you see around you is an extension of our bodies, ie cars, bikes, TV, computers, telescopes, planes, boats. Copying the abilities of animals and such is a perfectly natural thing for us to do and seems to work fine. Failure to use this gift is your loss. Actually, there is a much better way- it is the study of kineseology to determine the most efficient use of the human lever systems. Animals, bugs and humans have differing types of lever systems, appendages, jaws, teeth,and claws, strength to weight ratioo, etc. The most efficient ways for humans to perform tasks are usually not the same as the way bugs or animals do them. Some humans are unique in that they understand this.

[EarthDragon]

That doesnt mean we cant study thier behavior and understand thier exsistance longevity and create things based on that.

Or adapt certain behaviors as use them to our advantage. We are not monkies but have adapted their behavior in fighting styles. as with many other styles or sytems of kung fu. whats the reason you doubt this? and why dont you think its effective?

have you ever fought a mantis player? we redirect, lock, throw and lock again very effectively.

[Reggie1]

"it is the study of kineseology to determine the most efficient use of the human lever systems"

It seems like a lot of what I study involves this. Am I wrong?

[Meat Shake]

"It seems like a lot of what I study involves this. Am I wrong?"

I dont know what you study.

I actually like a lot of the mantis I have seen, I just dont go for the hole hook hand and pressure point bit. Dont really care to learn the system but there are techniques I like from it.
I wouldnt mind learning some chin na from a crane teacher either, as crane has the most chin na....

Just as an example...
Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. Yang Taiji and White Crane. Anyone who doesnt believe in the effectiveness of either needs to go play with dr. yang. I have not yet had the privelage of meeting him, but I certainly hope to one day. 7* can attest to his skills.

"The most efficient ways for humans to perform tasks are usually not the same as the way bugs or animals do them."

Mantis, crane, snake, etc.... We can mimick but not do the same as animals. As you stated in your post we do not have the same physiological make up as animals. We can mimmick movements, but I honestly seriously doubt the origins of the animal styles. I think the styles came about and adopted names after the fact, and expanded slightly based upon the names. We do not have reverse joints on our forearms, and cannot fight like a praying mantis. We do not have claws, 4 legs, or tails and cannot fight like tigers, leapords, or dragons. Dragon style itself should be more than enough proof of my theory... Who has seen a dragon fight to mimmick the motion? No one, because they dont fukkin exist.
We dont have wings and beaks. We have arms and legs, and cannot mimmick a snake. Water style kung fu? Cmon guys... You want to tell me someone watched water to learn to fight? Either that or do you think they made a style and decided that "it flows like water"?
Im no expert but Ive been around long enough to know that most kung fu styles have some useful information ingrained in the system, as goes for any style in general.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
.Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. Yang Taiji and White Crane. Anyone who doesnt believe in the effectiveness of either needs to go play with dr. yang. I have not yet had the privelage of meeting him, but I certainly hope to one day. 7* can attest to his skills. Seven Star? Confirmation on his skill at using these traditional styles in fighting?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
We are not monkies but have adapted their behavior in fighting styles. as with many other styles or sytems of kung fu. whats the reason you doubt this? and why dont you think its effective?

have you ever fought a mantis player? we redirect, lock, throw and lock again very effectively. Monkeys pick up objects to throw. Wouldn't you find it somewhat ludicrous for baseball players to try to study monkey throwing techniques to try to improve their throwing ability? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for them to train and develop their skills using modern techniques of developing human performance skills?


Originally posted by EarthDragon
have you ever fought a mantis player? we redirect, lock, throw and lock again very effectively.Yeah, and the people I have fought who weren't tring to mimic bugs or animals were much better fighters.

[Meat Shake]

" Seven Star? Confirmation on his skill at using these traditional styles in fighting?"

7* said he has met Dr. Yang... Regardless that he is one of few with a skill level as high as it is, he does have an amazing skillset.

In any case, its been said that shuai chiao is based on bulls fighting... Have you ever fought a shuai chiao practitioner? Not quite like the majority of TCMA.
I dont buy into the whole animal argument anyhow.
Besides, it cant be worse than Karate, tkd, krav maga, etc etc etc.....

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
7* said he has met Dr. Yang... Regardless that he is one of few with a skill level as high as it is, he does have an amazing skillset. Meeting someone is one thing. Determining their skill level by sparring or fighting with them or watching them fight or spar is quite another.

[Meat Shake]

lol
Whatever dude.
Im not going to argue with you wheather or not he can effectively apply chin na.

[SevenStar]

I've met him, but haven't seen him fight. That's not to say he's not skilled, however I don't know how well he applies it in a fighting situation.

What I did see was a friend of mine's arm go completely numb after it was touched. He threw a strike. Dr. yang redirected it and hit him somewhere that killed the use of his arm. He's VERY precise, I can say that.

[Merryprankster]

There is a reason that I put ED on my ignore list a long time ago.

[EarthDragon]

With such closed minds its a wonder you can learn anything.

You speak like you have experience in all styles of martial arts.

See maybe its me but I would think that you would have to have mastered a few styles before you could place judgment on any one in paticular.
And conclude that this one is uneffective for such and such a reason and this one lacks power for this reason.

But to make a claim like the ones you have leads me to believe you have not taken the time to learn the style which makes it impossible to make an educated decision.

The trouble with people is that they are so hasty to make judgements before they have an understanding of what they are judging.

[SevenStar]

ironically, you seem like the most closed minded one here...

[EarthDragon]

Not at all, I just think that people never took the time to learn what art they started in and then grouped every other style like it together and make uneducated assmuptions about them.

Actually I am very open minded and would try something before I would dis it.

And then I would find a MMA website that catered to my current interest and post there.
I wouldnt bother going on to the southern board and bash southern style kung fu just becuse I trained in northern.

But it seems for people to justify thier actions they need to put other styles down to make themselves feel better.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Not at all, I just think that people never took the time to learn what art they started in and then grouped every other style like it together and make uneducated assmuptions about them.

Or that they have played with other styles and base their assumptions on what they've experienced, maybe? And there are some assumptions that hold true, such as CMA and groundfighting. But, I think we are all guilty of making such assumptions in some shape, form or fashion.

[b]Actually I am very open minded

I have to get ready for work. After I get to work, I'll dig up several posts of yours that state otherwise, unless someone else beats me to it.

And then I would find a MMA website that catered to my current interest and post there.

many of us post on mma.tv.

I wouldnt bother going on to the southern board and bash southern style kung fu just becuse I trained in northern.

But it seems for people to justify thier actions they need to put other styles down to make themselves feel better.

nah, it's not that. It starts as information exchange. Acutally, in my case, and in the case of some others, we trained in CMA when we first came here. In any event. When people spout obvious nonsense, you can expect someone to refute it. After all, this is a discussion forum.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[/B]Monkeys pick up objects to throw. Wouldn't you find it somewhat ludicrous for baseball players to try to study monkey throwing techniques to try to improve their throwing ability? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for them to train and develop their skills using modern techniques of developing human performance skills?[/B]
Have you watch the Rockies pitchers latley?:o :p


Yeah, and the people I have fought who weren't tring to mimic bugs or animals were much better fighters.
... which makes your experiences exluseive over all else??? That comment reminds me of the guy who lold me that "true mexicans" don't eat flour tortillas because he'd never eaten them while in Mexico...:rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

thank you becca, finally someone who makes some sense of this mess. experience is a wonderful thing. lack of it even better

[Becca]

I highly enjoy reading about other people acting like I do... You know, big ego-big mouth getting me/you into doodoo with the very people you wish to impress.

And sometimes I learn Interesting Things of Value. But mosly just sit back and laugh.

[Water Dragon]

LOL, most Mexicans I know don't really eat flour tortillas. I could probably count on one hand the number of times we had flour tortillas in our house over the past ten years. It's the Ricans that like flour with pretty much everything.

[red5angel]

Monkeys pick up objects to throw. Wouldn't you find it somewhat ludicrous for baseball players to try to study monkey throwing techniques to try to improve their throwing ability? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for them to train and develop their skills using modern techniques of developing human performance skills?


Actually knifefighter, that's in inproper way to look at things. In Science they study all sorts of various elements when researching how to do this or that, engineering too. It follows that if a monkey is able to throw a 120 mph fast ball, you might want to look in to what it is that allows that monkey to throw that ball so fast. If it turns out it's a certain twist of the wrist, or some other variable that is repeatable by a human being, and that human being goes out, throws like a monkey and ends up throwing a faster fast ball because of it, you could call it what you want, but he's managed to increase his capabilites by mimicking an animal.

The other thing about some martial arts - I have a sneaking suspicion that some so called animal arts were created then named after an animal to give it some credibility in the society it was created in. It could possibly be that two guys sitting around making up their own art, crack some joke about looking like a mongoose on the attack, figure it sounds kind of cool and label their art "mongoose style".

[SifuAbel]

"The other thing about some martial arts - I have a sneaking suspicion that some so called animal arts were created then named after an animal to give it some credibility in the society it was created in. It could possibly be that two guys sitting around making up their own art, crack some joke about looking like a mongoose on the attack, figure it sounds kind of cool and label their art "mongoose style"."

Bingo, R5A hits nail on head and drives it through the board.

BTW, you even see chimp fling his poo? Its pin point accurate at 60 ft.

[Meat Shake]

"LOL, most Mexicans I know don't really eat flour tortillas. "

Truth be told!
Any time I go to las carretas, Im usually the only one ordering flour tortillas. They fill you up better. :)
But when I want to eat a really big meal... corn tortillas.
I also know how to make corn tortillas from maza, but dont really know how to make flour tortillas... although Im assuming its just flour, water, and baking powder.

[lkfmdc]

back to the topic at hand, why are any of us REALLY here?

if a tree falls in Detroit, who will it fall on?

if a train leaves Detroit, going southwest at 200 mph, carrying 1000 pounds of steel,

[TAO YIN]

I'm here to see how many times peeps can "beat the dead horse" of MMA vs TMA...And in how many variable topics, sub-topics, and the like they can do so. I don't know if I can count that high. One could write a thesis on this "puter age" phenomena. It's almost as if no one can speak of anything else.

Tao

"Here we are, killing time, and waiting to die."

[SifuAbel]

Next, we'll have a horse beating tournament to see how many horses can be beaten to death in an hour. Then we'll explore the different ways you can "beat" a dead horse.

[TAO YIN]

LOL! Count me in. I guess I'll start my iron palm again. If Ku Yu Cheong could kill a horse with his, I'd better start training now, on a stationary dummy horse of of course. I'm not ready for one of those live, MMA horses yet. See. It even relates to horse beatings.

"Kill the horse, uh, Kill the horse."

[Becca]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"LOL, most Mexicans I know don't really eat flour tortillas. "

Truth be told!
Any time I go to las carretas, Im usually the only one ordering flour tortillas. They fill you up better. :)
But when I want to eat a really big meal... corn tortillas.
I also know how to make corn tortillas from maza, but dont really know how to make flour tortillas... although Im assuming its just flour, water, and baking powder.
But you see it alot in some parts of Mexico. It was a Very nice Mexical lady (atually from Mexico City) that showed me how to make them.

MS- I'd give you the recipe, but it is a bit wierd. Marci did know how to mesure the way an American would.;)

[SevenStar]

I'm here because of google. I was searching for something (can't remember what now) and one of the results was a kfo thread.

[fa_jing]

Don't know if you guys have had Chinese pizza yet, but it rocks!

[SevenStar]

you're here because of chinese pizza?

[FuXnDajenariht]

im just waiting for the blood spillin

[Meat Shake]

"you're here because of chinese pizza?"

Is that anything like the german pasta?

[quiet man]

various reasons, really... to improve my english, since I'm not a native speaker (and this is as good a place as any for that purpose)... to be able to talk to smart and/or funny people from distant places I may never get to visit... to participate in the witty banter and general bonhommie... kung fu? Nahh, you won't find any of that in here :D ...